April 1, 2026 • 26 mins
It’s been revealed that Ardie Savea’s future with the All Blacks hung in the balance.
His push to quit was amid whispers of player discontent and coaching fractures exposing deep cracks in the team’s foundations.
Players apparently openly questions coaching, discipline, and its overall direction.
Today on The Front Page, NZ Herald rugby analyst, Gregor Paul, joins us to break down the inside story, and the deeper turmoil inside the All Blacks.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
revealed that Artie Savia's future with the All Blacks once
hung in the balance. His push to quit was amid
whispers of player discontent and coaching fractures, exposing deep cracks
(00:30):
in the team's foundations. Players apparently openly questioned coaching discipline
and its overall direction. Today on the Front Page ends
at Herald, Rugby analyst Gregor Paul joins us to break
down the inside story and the deeper turmoil inside the
All Blacks. So, Gregor, what convinced you that Artie Savia
(00:55):
was genuinely ready to walk away from his what one
million dollar plus contract?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, I think the fact that he said that he
was without giving you a physicious answer. I mean, I
don't think there's ambiguity in terms of the consistency of
my discovery. It's there all the way through. Everyone that
he spoke to is really clear about what he said,
(01:22):
which is that he felt that he didn't or couldn't
or wouldn't continue or he didn't want to continue with
the final two years of his contract and the reasons
for him wanting to.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Do that were. He clearly felt that.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Through the choices that he'd made must be said, the
career choices that he'd made following the twenty twenty three
World Cap, that they'd taken him away from his home
for too long. He hadn't been living in the family
home for various reasons because he's been in Japan.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Then he moved up to Auckland.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
His kids were at an age where I think one
of them had just started school, maybe two of them,
which was why they chose not to not for the
family not to go with him, so his wife and
three children stayed in Wellington.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
When he's on earning money.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
As a rugby player and that kind of nomadic lifestyle.
If you like the playing for so long without a
break his age, probably you know. I think everyone gets
to a certain age in rugby where their body starts to
not recover the way they wanted to. All of these
things happened, and in November, on that end of the
year tour with the All Blacks, he was really clear
(02:32):
with first chairman David Kirk, then coach Scott Robertson and
CEO Mark Robinson that he wanted to try and talk
to them about not fulfilling the final two years of
his contract.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Do you reckon? There's a wider discussion here about players
or homegrown players then going across to say the likes
of Japan, or some of them go to Paris and
things like that for the money, about choosing that, I
suppose over a long career with the Old Blacks.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I think the idea here is that.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
There is what we call the sabbatical clause that gets
offered up to players once they've reached or won seventy
test caps and they resign a long term contract with
New Zealand, a long term we mean three years plus.
Then they have the right to negotiate. I think it's
up to about six months where they can either not play,
(03:29):
which is what current captain Scott Barrett has chosen to
do he is not playing in Super Rugby, or he'll
return late, you know, for the last few games of
Super Rugby, so effectively he'll be having six months off.
He's negotiated the right to do that, or they have
the right to go and use those sabbatical periods to
go and play elsewhere. Typically it's in Japan because it
(03:50):
aligns with the New Zealand season, so they can go
off to Japan, earn incredible amounts of money, come back
and still be eligible to carry on playing for the
Old Blacks. Johnny Barrett chose to go to Ireland last year,
so that the option is to go and do that
in Europe.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Now, where the problem might lie is these ideas.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
This is the idea that these guys can have a
short period of time offshore, get a different playing experience,
get a different lifestyle experience, and continue to be All Blacks.
But I think the already example here shows the danger
that if you allow them to go, if you don't
manage that process particularly well because he went to play
(04:30):
in Japan in twenty twenty four and he's there again
this year, which has made his life very difficult. You know,
too much rugby, too much time away from home. And
I think what we need to look at, or what
you do on rugby certainly needs to look at, is
whether they can endorse that in the future, and whether
they need to be careful about how much time they
(04:50):
give these guys to go and meander and so their
wild oats for one of a better terms somewhere else
they probably needed to control that and they didn't do
it very well with.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Already where's he at now, Yeah, look, he's in Japan.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
He's feeling better about life, clearly. He's currently negotiating with
New Zealand Rugby a playing schedule that they will agree
with him for that once he comes back from Japan,
which will be sort of late in May early June.
They're then talking to him about saying, well, look, we
can't give you another sabbatical period if you've exhausted all those.
(05:27):
So he's looking at a number of options around physically
taking some time off. So he one option is that
he will not be available for the July test matches
when he comes home, that he just won't play in those.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
He'll take time.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Out, He'll be at home, he'll recuperate because he point
needs a bit of a break physically as much as
he needs to spend.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Some time at home.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
The idea there would be if they give him some
time off when he comes home, recuperate, rev him up.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So the big, the big thing in the All.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Black calendar this year is an eight week tour of
South Africa and they will rd Savvier at his best
for that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that's one option hasn't been agreed.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Maybe he'll take time off at the end of the
year and not go to Europe when the All Blacks
go over there, But I don't think that that's the
preferred option for either him or the new coaching group.
But in terms of where he is that he's looking
at a managed schedule that will take him through the
World Cup. He's given assurance to New Zealand Rugby he
will see out his contract, and I think, you know,
(06:27):
he's probably in a much better headspace. I wouldn't say
that the fact that the head coach has changed has
been the reason. Definitely not the reason why he came
back and negotiated from having said he didn't want to
be here. But I certainly think he'll be looking at
that opportunity as a chance to rebuild, restart, be rejuvenated
(06:49):
by a new coaching group coming in.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I suppose if we were to think of it like
you know, us common people, it'd be like using your
annual leave because you need a break, but then working
for another company or something during your annually, coming back
to your regular job and being like, I'm a bit tired.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And he well that these sabbatical options they came into play.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I'm old enough.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I broke the initial story back in two thousand and eight.
It was Daniel Carter that this was the first guy
because he was going to go offshore for three years.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
He's doing rugby when cheaper is.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
We don't want to lose you union mid twenties, So
they said, how about we let you go off shore
for six months and that you still remain contracted to us.
So it was it was. It wasn't a panic move,
but it kind of was create a precedent from their
on thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
You now like to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Senior players can now do this to elongate their their careers.
And yeah, look to me, it's they get paid an
extraordinary amount of money be gone play in Japan, which
is what Ardi has done, probably up to about two
million dollars for the for the biggest names. But the
kicker here, Chelsea, is that they still get paid by
New Zealand Rugby on top of that. So while they
(08:02):
don't get paid the super rugby component of their salary,
which is only and I say only, I don't mean
that in the sense of it's not a lot of money,
but it's one hundred and ninety five thousand dollars that
they miss out on. But these guys are getting paid
a million dollars by New Zealand Rugby, so they still
get paid about eight or nine hundred thousand dollars from
(08:23):
their employer and they're allowed to go and earn money
with a separate employer.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So these guys can bank up.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
To about three million dollars in a calendar year by
being allowed to do that, which is incredibly generous in
an artist case. He's done all that and then come
back and say, yeah, but I'm really tired. So there's
probably in some I know reading the comments that got
attached to my story, there's some people that don't have
any sympathy for that. But look he's landed in a
(08:52):
space where he was allowed to do this. He didn't
go rogue and just go off to Japan. But it
is an interesting point now where New Zealand's best player
has hit a wall and New Zealand Rugby have been
complicit to some extent and allowing that to happen, so
they having to kind of say, okay, well, look all
parties are at fault here. You know you wanted to
(09:13):
do this, you've over reached to some extent. We've allowed
you to do it, we probably shouldn't have. So there
retrospectively trying to manage back from there and say what
can we do to make this work because he's the
best player in the country and they do not want
to lose them eighteen months so before a World Cup.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Well, essentially our best player's got burnout. Do you reckon, like,
what is the likelihood of them looking at changing those plans?
Would that work?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Round?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Well, I mean Bordon Barrett has actually done something reasonably
similar to Ardi. He went to Japan and twenty twenty
one and then he went back again, and I think
he was here in twenty four.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Slightly bigger gap between his now.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I mean he's been fine, he's been okay, he hasn't
hit a wall, but he plays in a different position
and he's a different type of athlete to already. Ardy
is a collision athlete.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So when you you know, like even.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Richie McCall, who's the greatest All Black of all time,
had to take six months off playing rugby to get
him through to being able to continue playing. And I
think he was about thirty four or thirty five in
the World Cup final, and he was still at his
best by the time he reached thirty five because he
had taken a six month period where he just didn't play.
(10:32):
He went off and traveled and he had a genuine sabbatical,
went in and got away from the country and mentally,
you know, recharged himself. So that they these are.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
A good mechanism.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They have been a good mechanism in the past to
recharge players, to keep them in the country and give
them long careers. Artie is maybe the first guy where
the time off period that they've given him a sabbatical
period to extend his career and an actual fact, it's
ironically being the thing that might have shortened his career essentially.
(11:06):
So I don't think it's about putting a blanket ban
on them. I don't think it's about ripping it all up.
I think it's about saying New Zealand Rugby needs to
have a really careful, more detailed, nuanced management approach around
as players and says, yes, these conditions can be put
into your contract, but I think New Zealand needs to
be very careful about allowing guys to go and play
(11:29):
twice in these foreign competitions and say, look, we think
you need to take time off. You can play in
one one sabbatical period. You can go away and play.
If we give you another one, you're not playing in
that one. You're taking the time off.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I think culture is an interesting word in a sporting sense.
It's not tangible. Nobody could necessarily describe exactly what that means.
But I guess, like in any workplace, it's putting people
first and valuing people, creating an environment where you get
the best out of people. Sometimes that's the stick and
(12:11):
sometimes that's the carrot. But it's how you don't shy
away from hard conversations, how you cultivate purpose and meaning,
particularly within a rugby sense, how you get everyone on
the same page from a strategy point of view, the
leadership of the team, the people that you surround yourself with.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And we know there was a player discontent obviously before
Scott Robertson's departure. Do we know everything that was happening
behind the scenes, Well.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Not everything, or the thought we're not quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It has been detailed in that piece about already there
were there were there were a lot of things that
were unraveling in that team. I wouldn't put the you
wouldn't want to put the blame on one person, and
says all the head coaches thought, I think there's multiple
people complicit in why a team was unraveling to the
(13:16):
extent that it was.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And when I say.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Unraveling, you know, it's clear that there were players in
virtual open, open descent towards the end of that Grand
Slam Tour in November last year, talking openly in public
spaces about their unhappiness. It's very on all black you know,
all Blacks don't do that. They might they might have
a few guys up in the room, you know, whining
and moaning about coaching decision or not being in the team.
(13:40):
And that's always been the case, but it's never been
sort of open descent because senior players, if they hear that,
usually come along and say you need to be quiet. Now,
that's not how we do it. Guys would be disciplined
by the peers or.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
And that's what worried in New Zealand rugby was that
kind of self policing mechanism flowing apart in the team.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And it was widespread concern.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
About this about the state of the players their ability
to play for the coaching group.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
David Kirk, the chair, had been in Edinburgh and London.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And Chicago, seen firsthand talking to players what was going on.
So what happened was they built quite a detailed doffia
of intel about what was going on and they certainly
got the impression that there were so many red flags
that they needed to investigate what was going on. An
(14:33):
answer to your question, do we know everything, No, but
we know what the end of the story was. The
head coach was removed from his role, so that, you know,
that gives you a pretty clear indication that those that
investigated what was going on were pretty distressed to find
out that there was enough there to say, this is
something that's bad enough that we have to remove the
(14:55):
head coach from his job.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
And you mentioned there that it's not very all black like,
do you think that the prestige of being an all black,
even from within and behind the curtain, has diminished in
some way?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I don't think the prestige of being an all Blacks
has diminished.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think they I think, you know, we talked there
about the head coach was removed from his role, but
I think some of the senior all Black players, with
a lot of the all black players I think let
themselves down quite badly in the final period of Scott
Robertson's tenure, because a coach shouldn't be blindsided like that
about the level of unhappiness and discontent, the whole self
(15:37):
policing mechanism of the all Blacks and the whole kind
of they're there. They're there for the team and what's
right for the team or what's right for the team
is that these guys needed to be talking to the coach.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
They needed to be.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Saying this isn't right, we don't think this is going
to work. You know, push back. That's how these environments
got I mean it might not be necessarily yeah, to
some extent, it's what we have ens me certainly at
the Herald. You know, you push back sometimes to your
news editor and say, hey, I actually think this was
a good story. That's a robust culture that you get
to get the best out of people, to get the
(16:09):
best out of your environment. And then the all Blacks
in particular, certainly when you know, in previous regimes I've
covered a guy like McCall had a figure group around them.
They spoke up and they spoke out and they had
a collaborative agreement with the cultures about two and you
know what they could put into the.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Uh, you know what they put into the One.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Thing I thought was really quite interesting about your article
and why I call upon the prestige of the All Blacks,
I suppose is the ramifications for wrongdoing apparently have you know, lightened.
I suppose Do you think that's got anything to do
with the discontent.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I think I had a huge part to do with
the discontent. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily going
to be how life will be under the next culturing
regime or how it's been under previous ones. But under
Scott Robertson's coaching regime, there was certainly a sense uh
you know detailed to Damien McKinsey episode where he missed
(17:12):
the bus taking the team from San Diego back to
Los Angeles and his punishment was to apologize to the team. Well,
in previous All Black regimes, I can absolutely guarantee you
he would not have been playing the next week, and
maybe even beyond that might have been a two week
because the players would have said, that's a massive indiscretion.
That is not reaching the standards that we expect, you know,
(17:35):
in previous regimes, if you were late for just a
sort of meeting about something not that important, if you're
late by a minute, you'd be fined or you'd be disciplined.
And so the myth of bus taking you back to
an airport was a was.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
A major indiscretion that really.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Didn't get dealt with particularly well, and it set the tone,
you know, set the tone inside the team under the
Robertson era because he was the culture coach, and that
kind of stuff, if you don't deal with it becomes
a massive problem. The all blacks have an expectation that
you know, you turn up on time, you're wearing the
right kit. It's really really laid out to you what
(18:10):
you need to do, when you need to do, how
you need to behave, all this kind of stuff. So
if you if you fail, you're put in front of
your peer group usually and they give you a pretty
tough time about, you know, how you've let the team down.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So that was quite a corross development inside that particular
team because.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
They don't had another incident where ethan the.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Group, we don't actually know what his misdemeanor was but
we believe it was he missed a curfew and then
he was stood down for a game. Now that's the
right call in some senses, but it then pushed back
against what had happened to Damian mckinseick.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So it felt like there's a sort of two tier
of you know, it depends who you might be.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
And what position you play, and that might have an
impact on your punishment. And if you go back to
the world cut, Mark Tallaer, who was the sort of
formed wing of the of the All Blacks at that time,
a really important player to them, he missed the curfew
during the World Cup and he then missed the World
Cup quarterfinal. He didn't get to play in it. Now
(19:13):
he was a hugely important player. But they but they
were adamant, you've you haven't met standards, so you're not playing,
And that was really clear to the players in the
previous regime.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And then the Robertson one.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
There were all these contradictions and indiscretions that got punished
and some that did and some that didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So that became a real issue inside the team.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Right Gregor, So what next, what do you expect from
this coaching team. Are they going to be carrot or stick?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
There'll be There'll be a combination of the two as
they need to be. I don't think they'll set out
with a particular view on one or or the other.
It'll be an environment that they set out with really
clear expectations for the players about how the team wants
to play, how they expectations around behavior. These are always
pretty obvious anyway, when you're an old Black. By the
(20:03):
time you've got there, you've a pretty good understanding about
how you meant to behave you know what being an
old Black looks like. But he will reinforce that. I
think it would be an empowering environment. I think he'd
be more collaborative with the players, with players will have
greater input both the strategy and look off the field.
I think they'll be given a bit of leeway to
behave like adults, and if they don't, they'll be you know,
(20:27):
they'll be There'll be punishment for that.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
They'll have a clearly set out set.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Of standards, and I'm sure that Dave will be really
consistent with how he treats the players if if they
behave or don't behave, all of that will be really
clear to them about what what happens.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Do you think there's any more to come out.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I'd be very surprised if there's any more to come out.
I think that's probably it, and I don't really know
if anyone will.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Certainly I won't be looking any harder or any further
because I feel like that's a fairly exhaustive search that's
already been carried out. And secondly, look value around doing
that now journalistically has probably gone because you know, the
change has been made. We all know there was a
problem and the problem is undeniable because they moved the culture,
(21:11):
they terminated as jobs.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So now I think I think we've probably brought that
story to names.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
Yeah, all I know is like change, change is good
sometimes and having Razor has already got what he's done
in Supers, so it's going to be it's going to
be pretty interesting. Is going to be awesome, Like for
me is even though like great year last year, I
(21:43):
sit in this comfort too because I'm like where do
I sit? I've still got to make the team some
great Lucy's playing in New Zealand right now, so I'm
on my toes here where like I'm trying to still
compete and still try and be the best. You know, yeah, yeah,
But as for all, Blest Africa is going to be excited.
Got some exciting fixtures, you know. The interview tour too
(22:04):
is a massive So it's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Men, and just from just because I'm interested. When you
get kind of like a whispering of say Anadi Savier
looking to renegotiate his contract or wanting to walk away,
or these kind of murmurings of discontent among the crew,
as a journalist, what do you have to do to
(22:29):
try and see whether that's actually the case? Like, how
many people do you go.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Through in the case of this piece I just finished
I Canada up the other day and I think it
was about twenty nine, if not thirty people, you know
who with direct connections to the information that you're trying
to find out.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You can't take anything on.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
There's a lot of there's a lot of rumor and
there's a lot of speculation.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
There's a lot of people that think they.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Know about what was happening in and around the team
because players talk, you know, players talk to an agent
might then talk to the administrator. Administrator talks to someone
and you can be four steps removed and that story
that you're hearing can be completely changed in terms of
what was actually happening with Ardie Savier. There were a
(23:14):
lot of rumors apparently, you know, he was about to
sign a contract with an Irish club, or he was
about to go and do this. There's no evidence of
that though. When you actually get to the people that
you need to speak to and you find out, you know,
you've got to actually talk to the people that were
talking to Ardi tried very hard to get Ardie himself
to talk, but he didn't want to. He may, in time,
(23:35):
you know, deal with with his situation. He may say something,
he may not, but you've got to ask. You've got
to be one hundred percent certain. You've got to be
talking to the right people, people that can tell you
with some uncertainty because they're directly connected to that information,
and you can be certain about you know, when I
you know when when I.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Wrote that, Ardi was very clear about his intentions, and
you can guess.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
You've got to be talking to people that know what
was said in that room, would be confident that they
know what was said in that room. So that takes
time to put all that together, and you know, in
the end people might not like I know, there's been
a bit of pushback from people connected to the story
who feel it's kind of going over all ground or
it's being you know, it's dragging Scott Robertson's regime through
(24:23):
the mud one more time. But no one disputes the
accuracy of it, you know, that's the important thing. Everyone
that the narrative is correct. As far as I can
tell that the timelines are all correct, the story is
all correct, and the public can.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Make their minds up about the value of that.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And I guess you know, what the Herald's building its
premium reputation on is being correct, being accurate and telling
stories to that kind of depth, and they give people
an insight into what was really going on in the
Old Blacks.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And whether it's valuable or not, I guess will be.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
You know, our audience will judge the value depending on
how many people read it and how many people be
for it well.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And it's important for the history books as well, surely
to know what different eras of the All Blanks. You know,
which is a team that is not just a sports
team in this country. They're held to such high regard.
They're put on the highest pedestal, so of course it's important.
Thank you so much for joining us, Gregor.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(25:51):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts,
and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
revealed that Artie Savia's future with the All Blacks once
hung in the balance. His push to quit was amid
whispers of player discontent and coaching fractures, exposing deep cracks
(00:30):
in the team's foundations. Players apparently openly questioned coaching discipline
and its overall direction. Today on the Front Page ends
at Herald, Rugby analyst Gregor Paul joins us to break
down the inside story and the deeper turmoil inside the
All Blacks. So, Gregor, what convinced you that Artie Savia
(00:55):
was genuinely ready to walk away from his what one
million dollar plus contract?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, I think the fact that he said that he
was without giving you a physicious answer. I mean, I
don't think there's ambiguity in terms of the consistency of
my discovery. It's there all the way through. Everyone that
he spoke to is really clear about what he said,
(01:22):
which is that he felt that he didn't or couldn't
or wouldn't continue or he didn't want to continue with
the final two years of his contract and the reasons
for him wanting to.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Do that were. He clearly felt that.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Through the choices that he'd made must be said, the
career choices that he'd made following the twenty twenty three
World Cap, that they'd taken him away from his home
for too long. He hadn't been living in the family
home for various reasons because he's been in Japan.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Then he moved up to Auckland.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
His kids were at an age where I think one
of them had just started school, maybe two of them,
which was why they chose not to not for the
family not to go with him, so his wife and
three children stayed in Wellington.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
When he's on earning money.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
As a rugby player and that kind of nomadic lifestyle.
If you like the playing for so long without a
break his age, probably you know. I think everyone gets
to a certain age in rugby where their body starts to
not recover the way they wanted to. All of these
things happened, and in November, on that end of the
year tour with the All Blacks, he was really clear
(02:32):
with first chairman David Kirk, then coach Scott Robertson and
CEO Mark Robinson that he wanted to try and talk
to them about not fulfilling the final two years of
his contract.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Do you reckon? There's a wider discussion here about players
or homegrown players then going across to say the likes
of Japan, or some of them go to Paris and
things like that for the money, about choosing that, I
suppose over a long career with the Old Blacks.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I think the idea here is that.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
There is what we call the sabbatical clause that gets
offered up to players once they've reached or won seventy
test caps and they resign a long term contract with
New Zealand, a long term we mean three years plus.
Then they have the right to negotiate. I think it's
up to about six months where they can either not play,
(03:29):
which is what current captain Scott Barrett has chosen to
do he is not playing in Super Rugby, or he'll
return late, you know, for the last few games of
Super Rugby, so effectively he'll be having six months off.
He's negotiated the right to do that, or they have
the right to go and use those sabbatical periods to
go and play elsewhere. Typically it's in Japan because it
(03:50):
aligns with the New Zealand season, so they can go
off to Japan, earn incredible amounts of money, come back
and still be eligible to carry on playing for the
Old Blacks. Johnny Barrett chose to go to Ireland last year,
so that the option is to go and do that
in Europe.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Now, where the problem might lie is these ideas.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
This is the idea that these guys can have a
short period of time offshore, get a different playing experience,
get a different lifestyle experience, and continue to be All Blacks.
But I think the already example here shows the danger
that if you allow them to go, if you don't
manage that process particularly well because he went to play
(04:30):
in Japan in twenty twenty four and he's there again
this year, which has made his life very difficult. You know,
too much rugby, too much time away from home. And
I think what we need to look at, or what
you do on rugby certainly needs to look at, is
whether they can endorse that in the future, and whether
they need to be careful about how much time they
(04:50):
give these guys to go and meander and so their
wild oats for one of a better terms somewhere else
they probably needed to control that and they didn't do
it very well with.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Already where's he at now, Yeah, look, he's in Japan.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
He's feeling better about life, clearly. He's currently negotiating with
New Zealand Rugby a playing schedule that they will agree
with him for that once he comes back from Japan,
which will be sort of late in May early June.
They're then talking to him about saying, well, look, we
can't give you another sabbatical period if you've exhausted all those.
(05:27):
So he's looking at a number of options around physically
taking some time off. So he one option is that
he will not be available for the July test matches
when he comes home, that he just won't play in those.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
He'll take time.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Out, He'll be at home, he'll recuperate because he point
needs a bit of a break physically as much as
he needs to spend.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Some time at home.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
The idea there would be if they give him some
time off when he comes home, recuperate, rev him up.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So the big, the big thing in the All.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Black calendar this year is an eight week tour of
South Africa and they will rd Savvier at his best
for that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that's one option hasn't been agreed.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Maybe he'll take time off at the end of the
year and not go to Europe when the All Blacks
go over there, But I don't think that that's the
preferred option for either him or the new coaching group.
But in terms of where he is that he's looking
at a managed schedule that will take him through the
World Cup. He's given assurance to New Zealand Rugby he
will see out his contract, and I think, you know,
(06:27):
he's probably in a much better headspace. I wouldn't say
that the fact that the head coach has changed has
been the reason. Definitely not the reason why he came
back and negotiated from having said he didn't want to
be here. But I certainly think he'll be looking at
that opportunity as a chance to rebuild, restart, be rejuvenated
(06:49):
by a new coaching group coming in.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I suppose if we were to think of it like
you know, us common people, it'd be like using your
annual leave because you need a break, but then working
for another company or something during your annually, coming back
to your regular job and being like, I'm a bit tired.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And he well that these sabbatical options they came into play.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I'm old enough.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I broke the initial story back in two thousand and eight.
It was Daniel Carter that this was the first guy
because he was going to go offshore for three years.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
He's doing rugby when cheaper is.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
We don't want to lose you union mid twenties, So
they said, how about we let you go off shore
for six months and that you still remain contracted to us.
So it was it was. It wasn't a panic move,
but it kind of was create a precedent from their
on thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
You now like to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Senior players can now do this to elongate their their careers.
And yeah, look to me, it's they get paid an
extraordinary amount of money be gone play in Japan, which
is what Ardi has done, probably up to about two
million dollars for the for the biggest names. But the
kicker here, Chelsea, is that they still get paid by
New Zealand Rugby on top of that. So while they
(08:02):
don't get paid the super rugby component of their salary,
which is only and I say only, I don't mean
that in the sense of it's not a lot of money,
but it's one hundred and ninety five thousand dollars that
they miss out on. But these guys are getting paid
a million dollars by New Zealand Rugby, so they still
get paid about eight or nine hundred thousand dollars from
(08:23):
their employer and they're allowed to go and earn money
with a separate employer.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So these guys can bank up.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
To about three million dollars in a calendar year by
being allowed to do that, which is incredibly generous in
an artist case. He's done all that and then come
back and say, yeah, but I'm really tired. So there's
probably in some I know reading the comments that got
attached to my story, there's some people that don't have
any sympathy for that. But look he's landed in a
(08:52):
space where he was allowed to do this. He didn't
go rogue and just go off to Japan. But it
is an interesting point now where New Zealand's best player
has hit a wall and New Zealand Rugby have been
complicit to some extent and allowing that to happen, so
they having to kind of say, okay, well, look all
parties are at fault here. You know you wanted to
(09:13):
do this, you've over reached to some extent. We've allowed
you to do it, we probably shouldn't have. So there
retrospectively trying to manage back from there and say what
can we do to make this work because he's the
best player in the country and they do not want
to lose them eighteen months so before a World Cup.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Well, essentially our best player's got burnout. Do you reckon, like,
what is the likelihood of them looking at changing those plans?
Would that work?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Round?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Well, I mean Bordon Barrett has actually done something reasonably
similar to Ardi. He went to Japan and twenty twenty
one and then he went back again, and I think
he was here in twenty four.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Slightly bigger gap between his now.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I mean he's been fine, he's been okay, he hasn't
hit a wall, but he plays in a different position
and he's a different type of athlete to already. Ardy
is a collision athlete.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So when you you know, like even.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Richie McCall, who's the greatest All Black of all time,
had to take six months off playing rugby to get
him through to being able to continue playing. And I
think he was about thirty four or thirty five in
the World Cup final, and he was still at his
best by the time he reached thirty five because he
had taken a six month period where he just didn't play.
(10:32):
He went off and traveled and he had a genuine sabbatical,
went in and got away from the country and mentally,
you know, recharged himself. So that they these are.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
A good mechanism.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They have been a good mechanism in the past to
recharge players, to keep them in the country and give
them long careers. Artie is maybe the first guy where
the time off period that they've given him a sabbatical
period to extend his career and an actual fact, it's
ironically being the thing that might have shortened his career essentially.
(11:06):
So I don't think it's about putting a blanket ban
on them. I don't think it's about ripping it all up.
I think it's about saying New Zealand Rugby needs to
have a really careful, more detailed, nuanced management approach around
as players and says, yes, these conditions can be put
into your contract, but I think New Zealand needs to
be very careful about allowing guys to go and play
(11:29):
twice in these foreign competitions and say, look, we think
you need to take time off. You can play in
one one sabbatical period. You can go away and play.
If we give you another one, you're not playing in
that one. You're taking the time off.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
I think culture is an interesting word in a sporting sense.
It's not tangible. Nobody could necessarily describe exactly what that means.
But I guess, like in any workplace, it's putting people
first and valuing people, creating an environment where you get
the best out of people. Sometimes that's the stick and
(12:11):
sometimes that's the carrot. But it's how you don't shy
away from hard conversations, how you cultivate purpose and meaning,
particularly within a rugby sense, how you get everyone on
the same page from a strategy point of view, the
leadership of the team, the people that you surround yourself with.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And we know there was a player discontent obviously before
Scott Robertson's departure. Do we know everything that was happening
behind the scenes, Well.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Not everything, or the thought we're not quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It has been detailed in that piece about already there
were there were there were a lot of things that
were unraveling in that team. I wouldn't put the you
wouldn't want to put the blame on one person, and
says all the head coaches thought, I think there's multiple
people complicit in why a team was unraveling to the
(13:16):
extent that it was.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And when I say.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Unraveling, you know, it's clear that there were players in
virtual open, open descent towards the end of that Grand
Slam Tour in November last year, talking openly in public
spaces about their unhappiness. It's very on all black you know,
all Blacks don't do that. They might they might have
a few guys up in the room, you know, whining
and moaning about coaching decision or not being in the team.
(13:40):
And that's always been the case, but it's never been
sort of open descent because senior players, if they hear that,
usually come along and say you need to be quiet. Now,
that's not how we do it. Guys would be disciplined
by the peers or.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
And that's what worried in New Zealand rugby was that
kind of self policing mechanism flowing apart in the team.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And it was widespread concern.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
About this about the state of the players their ability
to play for the coaching group.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
David Kirk, the chair, had been in Edinburgh and London.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And Chicago, seen firsthand talking to players what was going on.
So what happened was they built quite a detailed doffia
of intel about what was going on and they certainly
got the impression that there were so many red flags
that they needed to investigate what was going on. An
(14:33):
answer to your question, do we know everything, No, but
we know what the end of the story was. The
head coach was removed from his role, so that, you know,
that gives you a pretty clear indication that those that
investigated what was going on were pretty distressed to find
out that there was enough there to say, this is
something that's bad enough that we have to remove the
(14:55):
head coach from his job.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
And you mentioned there that it's not very all black like,
do you think that the prestige of being an all black,
even from within and behind the curtain, has diminished in
some way?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I don't think the prestige of being an all Blacks
has diminished.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think they I think, you know, we talked there
about the head coach was removed from his role, but
I think some of the senior all Black players, with
a lot of the all black players I think let
themselves down quite badly in the final period of Scott
Robertson's tenure, because a coach shouldn't be blindsided like that
about the level of unhappiness and discontent, the whole self
(15:37):
policing mechanism of the all Blacks and the whole kind
of they're there. They're there for the team and what's
right for the team or what's right for the team
is that these guys needed to be talking to the coach.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
They needed to be.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Saying this isn't right, we don't think this is going
to work. You know, push back. That's how these environments
got I mean it might not be necessarily yeah, to
some extent, it's what we have ens me certainly at
the Herald. You know, you push back sometimes to your
news editor and say, hey, I actually think this was
a good story. That's a robust culture that you get
to get the best out of people, to get the
(16:09):
best out of your environment. And then the all Blacks
in particular, certainly when you know, in previous regimes I've
covered a guy like McCall had a figure group around them.
They spoke up and they spoke out and they had
a collaborative agreement with the cultures about two and you
know what they could put into the.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Uh, you know what they put into the One.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Thing I thought was really quite interesting about your article
and why I call upon the prestige of the All Blacks,
I suppose is the ramifications for wrongdoing apparently have you know, lightened.
I suppose Do you think that's got anything to do
with the discontent.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I think I had a huge part to do with
the discontent. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily going
to be how life will be under the next culturing
regime or how it's been under previous ones. But under
Scott Robertson's coaching regime, there was certainly a sense uh
you know detailed to Damien McKinsey episode where he missed
(17:12):
the bus taking the team from San Diego back to
Los Angeles and his punishment was to apologize to the team. Well,
in previous All Black regimes, I can absolutely guarantee you
he would not have been playing the next week, and
maybe even beyond that might have been a two week
because the players would have said, that's a massive indiscretion.
That is not reaching the standards that we expect, you know,
(17:35):
in previous regimes, if you were late for just a
sort of meeting about something not that important, if you're
late by a minute, you'd be fined or you'd be disciplined.
And so the myth of bus taking you back to
an airport was a was.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
A major indiscretion that really.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Didn't get dealt with particularly well, and it set the tone,
you know, set the tone inside the team under the
Robertson era because he was the culture coach, and that
kind of stuff, if you don't deal with it becomes
a massive problem. The all blacks have an expectation that
you know, you turn up on time, you're wearing the
right kit. It's really really laid out to you what
(18:10):
you need to do, when you need to do, how
you need to behave, all this kind of stuff. So
if you if you fail, you're put in front of
your peer group usually and they give you a pretty
tough time about, you know, how you've let the team down.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So that was quite a corross development inside that particular
team because.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
They don't had another incident where ethan the.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Group, we don't actually know what his misdemeanor was but
we believe it was he missed a curfew and then
he was stood down for a game. Now that's the
right call in some senses, but it then pushed back
against what had happened to Damian mckinseick.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So it felt like there's a sort of two tier
of you know, it depends who you might be.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
And what position you play, and that might have an
impact on your punishment. And if you go back to
the world cut, Mark Tallaer, who was the sort of
formed wing of the of the All Blacks at that time,
a really important player to them, he missed the curfew
during the World Cup and he then missed the World
Cup quarterfinal. He didn't get to play in it. Now
(19:13):
he was a hugely important player. But they but they
were adamant, you've you haven't met standards, so you're not playing,
And that was really clear to the players in the
previous regime.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And then the Robertson one.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
There were all these contradictions and indiscretions that got punished
and some that did and some that didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So that became a real issue inside the team.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Right Gregor, So what next, what do you expect from
this coaching team. Are they going to be carrot or stick?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
There'll be There'll be a combination of the two as
they need to be. I don't think they'll set out
with a particular view on one or or the other.
It'll be an environment that they set out with really
clear expectations for the players about how the team wants
to play, how they expectations around behavior. These are always
pretty obvious anyway, when you're an old Black. By the
(20:03):
time you've got there, you've a pretty good understanding about
how you meant to behave you know what being an
old Black looks like. But he will reinforce that. I
think it would be an empowering environment. I think he'd
be more collaborative with the players, with players will have
greater input both the strategy and look off the field.
I think they'll be given a bit of leeway to
behave like adults, and if they don't, they'll be you know,
(20:27):
they'll be There'll be punishment for that.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
They'll have a clearly set out set.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Of standards, and I'm sure that Dave will be really
consistent with how he treats the players if if they
behave or don't behave, all of that will be really
clear to them about what what happens.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Do you think there's any more to come out.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I'd be very surprised if there's any more to come out.
I think that's probably it, and I don't really know
if anyone will.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Certainly I won't be looking any harder or any further
because I feel like that's a fairly exhaustive search that's
already been carried out. And secondly, look value around doing
that now journalistically has probably gone because you know, the
change has been made. We all know there was a
problem and the problem is undeniable because they moved the culture,
(21:11):
they terminated as jobs.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So now I think I think we've probably brought that
story to names.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
Yeah, all I know is like change, change is good
sometimes and having Razor has already got what he's done
in Supers, so it's going to be it's going to
be pretty interesting. Is going to be awesome, Like for
me is even though like great year last year, I
(21:43):
sit in this comfort too because I'm like where do
I sit? I've still got to make the team some
great Lucy's playing in New Zealand right now, so I'm
on my toes here where like I'm trying to still
compete and still try and be the best. You know, yeah, yeah,
But as for all, Blest Africa is going to be excited.
Got some exciting fixtures, you know. The interview tour too
(22:04):
is a massive So it's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Men, and just from just because I'm interested. When you
get kind of like a whispering of say Anadi Savier
looking to renegotiate his contract or wanting to walk away,
or these kind of murmurings of discontent among the crew,
as a journalist, what do you have to do to
(22:29):
try and see whether that's actually the case? Like, how
many people do you go.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Through in the case of this piece I just finished
I Canada up the other day and I think it
was about twenty nine, if not thirty people, you know
who with direct connections to the information that you're trying
to find out.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
You can't take anything on.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
There's a lot of there's a lot of rumor and
there's a lot of speculation.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
There's a lot of people that think they.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Know about what was happening in and around the team
because players talk, you know, players talk to an agent
might then talk to the administrator. Administrator talks to someone
and you can be four steps removed and that story
that you're hearing can be completely changed in terms of
what was actually happening with Ardie Savier. There were a
(23:14):
lot of rumors apparently, you know, he was about to
sign a contract with an Irish club, or he was
about to go and do this. There's no evidence of
that though. When you actually get to the people that
you need to speak to and you find out, you know,
you've got to actually talk to the people that were
talking to Ardi tried very hard to get Ardie himself
to talk, but he didn't want to. He may, in time,
(23:35):
you know, deal with with his situation. He may say something,
he may not, but you've got to ask. You've got
to be one hundred percent certain. You've got to be
talking to the right people, people that can tell you
with some uncertainty because they're directly connected to that information,
and you can be certain about you know, when I
you know when when I.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Wrote that, Ardi was very clear about his intentions, and
you can guess.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
You've got to be talking to people that know what
was said in that room, would be confident that they
know what was said in that room. So that takes
time to put all that together, and you know, in
the end people might not like I know, there's been
a bit of pushback from people connected to the story
who feel it's kind of going over all ground or
it's being you know, it's dragging Scott Robertson's regime through
(24:23):
the mud one more time. But no one disputes the
accuracy of it, you know, that's the important thing. Everyone
that the narrative is correct. As far as I can
tell that the timelines are all correct, the story is
all correct, and the public can.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Make their minds up about the value of that.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And I guess you know, what the Herald's building its
premium reputation on is being correct, being accurate and telling
stories to that kind of depth, and they give people
an insight into what was really going on in the
Old Blacks.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And whether it's valuable or not, I guess will be.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
You know, our audience will judge the value depending on
how many people read it and how many people be
for it well.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And it's important for the history books as well, surely
to know what different eras of the All Blanks. You know,
which is a team that is not just a sports
team in this country. They're held to such high regard.
They're put on the highest pedestal, so of course it's important.
Thank you so much for joining us, Gregor.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(25:51):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts,
and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
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