November 18, 2024 • 20 mins
The hikoi that started in Cape Reinga and has made its way down the country arrives in Wellington today.
While many have taken part in various stages of the hikoi, tens of thousands of people are expected outside the Beehive today, as a protest against the Government’s policies impacting Maori, including the Treaty Principles Bill.
Te Pati Maori have been leading the push back against the Government, notably with a viral haka stunt in Parliament during the Bill’s first reading that has garnered global attention.
The party’s co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, joins us today on The Front Page to discuss the hikoi, that viral haka, and why they are fighting back so strongly against this Government.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The
Hikoy that started in Cape Rianga has made its way
down the country of the last week and arrives in
Wellington today. While many have taken part in various stages
(00:27):
of the Hikoy, tens of thousands of people are expected
outside the Beehive today as a protest against the government's
policies impacting Malti, including the Treaty Principal's Bill. Tipazi Maldi
have been leading the pushback against the government, notably with
a viral hukka in Parliament during the bill's first reading
(00:49):
that has garnered global attention. The party's co leader, Debbie
Nadewa Paka, joins us today on the Front Page to
discuss the hiccu, that viral hakka and why they are
fighting back so strongly against this coalition government. So, Dabbie,
(01:14):
the Hikoy is set to reach Parliament today. How has
it gone so far?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Amazing?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So Lavely and I were at the very beginning. I
feel like it's seven or eight days ago and it's
just continued. I wasn't there at Tomaki Mikado, but have
been back in there again.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
In the last three days and just amazing spirit.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
A lot of fabulous discipline, a lot of kia coming,
particularly this last week we arrived and put it all
last night.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
There's just an overwhelming sense.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Of support and physical support of Pako of Tana Titi
and I think, you know that's very marshall, very humbling,
but again also very very strong in the messaging against
this bill and it's certainly against the government's agreement on it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Asides from some traffic congestion, there doesn't seem to have
been any incidents along the way. It's been pretty peaceful.
But around thirty thousand people are expected at Parliament today,
which is actually bigger than the twenty twenty two protests.
Do you think the hikoy will remain peaceful with that
many people involved.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, Look, I think those numbers will probably go even higher.
And I kept looking at some of the numbers we
had and Puppy Uia and Parmesan North and Title Bullivian
and put it all last night. Look, I think what's
really important is the passive and the passive way of
doing hikoy and activism is very mildy, and then the
only incident I saw was two sisters were fighting over
(02:44):
who was going to be on the left or the
right hand side of a selfie with me. They are
too focused on what the messaging needs to be, and
unity has been a keyword that has come down from
our King, who we lost recently, from many of those
at the Hickoy nineteen seventy five, and that's continued to
be the way that we mobilize. So now I don't
expect any real incidents other than getting the message across
(03:08):
and again continue on that beautiful spirit of unity.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I actually had a friend in Australia message me at
the weekend asking if I could explain to her in
the simplest way possible, like I was talking to a
five year old, what happened in parliament? How would you
explain the Treaty and the Principal's Bill to my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I think what's happened in Parliament and what this bell
represents is wiping away the existence and the rights that
the indigenous peoples of Old t Edoor had before colonization.
We were the protection to always remember Mary artangua defen
of Altor and the significance. We have as Mary to
(03:49):
look after everyone that comes in it, but not at
the cost of being Mary. I think that's probably the
most simplest way. It's harmful. It hurts not to feel valued.
It really hurts to have seen that we would trade
it off to become part of a coalition agreement.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And so yeah, I think that's you know, it's.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Hurtful and it feels horrible to have to defend being
Maori right now in the ways, either whether it be
in Parliament or.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Through the hikui.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
A forty if six quotes A posts.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
The video of this hauker in Parliament has gone viral,
with people around the world commenting and wanting to learn
more from the outside looking in. It's quite an incredible
moment when Hannah ra would the MP Clark tears that
paper into What did you feel in that moment?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Everything we do is extremely intentional, and you know, I
guess the spirit of it is that TETTI is one
of the most honored documents that you know, we have
the spirit of its intent and also to protect us
and our rights and interests tongue Toenema two. Also you know,
focus on a united ALTI or but if you look at.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
How easy it was to rip it up. It was
you know, it's three to.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Four pages of thin pieces of paper that are shallow,
that have no significance, and.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's you know, to see our youngest do that.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So the spirit of this was, as you know, I
was intentional, was pre planned, but it was also show
the world, look what we've been relegated to, these thin
pieces of paper that were just so easily easily ripped
by our youngest member.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
So I think there's there's a real again, I can't think.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Of other words in the hurt and the absolute intent
to fight this and to show the world what it
is that's happening at the moment. We were a country
that had the first woman's vote where we did, we
went out. We have always you know, punches above our
weight in the anti nuclear space, anti discrimination space, and
here we are in twenty twenty four that the sort
(06:14):
of whole Trump like culture come into our politics.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So yeah, I think you know that's and I think,
you know, we've done.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Really well and so proud of our Hunah and the
party and everyone else that the other opposition parties that
in the gullery, those who the hucker belonged to that
supported this because we had to let the world know
what we're dealing with and what we're having to defend.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, and you know what really hit me when I
saw that video as well, seeing Maria man or Carpa
Kinghi looking at Mighty Clark and you can just see
that she is so full of pride.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Did you feel that as well? Absolutely? Every day.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I mean, you know, I think what we have is
that we are intergenerationally connected. You know, we're the Aunties,
and you know, we've got all different roles because we're
you know, we're real people. But the reality is that
it's going to be Hannah's generation of our population are
under the age of forty that are going to have
to try and rebalance this.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Now. We need to bring balance back into our lives.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
We don't want to be suffering the worst and equalities
that worse, dying eight years before everyone else. We don't
want to be the most imprisoned and suffering in education systems.
We actually don't want that for anyone. So Hannah represents hope,
and what we're hoping that she shows the world is
that we will stand up against this type of bigot
(07:35):
and discrimination and we will bring the world with us.
This younger generation are just phenomenal. So yeah, proud every day.
But if you have a look, they don't stand alone.
They will always be standing in support. And the way
we stage things and do things is to show they
will never ever take hits or be taken on alone.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
We will always be with them.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Recently, former Prime Minister and ex treating the Girlciations Minister
Dame Jenny Shepley has warned the ACT Party is inviting
civil war with the Principal's Bill Seymour said that those
comments were grossly responsible. But what do you make of
those comments?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Well, I agree.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I mean the civil war that we're seen from some
of the racists and the attacks from David Seymour, the
way that they're basically committing treason on the TILITI feels
like they're committing civil war against Tunata Fuenowa. We've never
had to be in this state of defense politicians, and
you know we've had to fight numerous things. You do
(08:35):
not resort to doing that unless you are absolutely at
the acute end of every defense you need to employ
or deploy to take on this attack. And I know
that it's not who she meant the civil war was
coming from but it does feel like it's coming at us,
and you know they're using every school possible and every
influence and it's really really with these such a deep
(08:59):
rooted sense of being portrayed. That the Prime Minister could
trade the manna of the trity for a three year
coalition agreement, I just and I can't explain it. And
I think that's the hardest thing when our Antayo Tamataga
kids are asking us, but why you know it's going
to be Why.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Would he do that for three years?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's just absolute power can do you know, can make
people do some.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Really sad, sick things.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
So yeah, I can understand where she's coming from, but
I think she thought the war was going to come
from us.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
On the other side, what do you make of people
saying to Patimori is too radical, that the party only
wants anarchy and is stoking racial divisions, and if the
roles were reversed, if this was a Paki house saying
all these kinds of things they say, it would be
called racist. What do you make of those comments?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, I get how people see us, because we are
up against it. We have been backed in a corner
to have to come out fighting. Prior to this, you know,
we have unfortunately, we have some of the worst statistics
in house stats and as I said on their social
stats that we just just as sets. We just don't
want in order to address that. We know that we're
put in here to push for transformational change. We've got
(10:20):
a government that's back reversed everything back so much that
we have to continuously push for a balance. And when
you're pushing to bring something to float and yeah, it's
just so adrift and you have to work really hard
to bring the balance back. It does probably seem like
we are radical, but we are absolutely committed to rebalancing,
(10:42):
to commitments of living as Tatileti proposes, to developing a
beautiful nation that's full of peace in Adha. When you're
up against the kind of you know, extremism that we're seeing,
which again feels like some of the Trump politics, you.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Cannot just take it on gently.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
You do have to be transformational and intentional and provocative
and everything we do to fight our cause.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So the National Party in New Zealand first say that
they're voted for the first reading of this bill, but
they've made it very clear that they won't support it
beyond this reading. Do you think that's good enough?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No, I don't, and I think that's that's the deep shame.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And we've had just as many National voters, ex National
voters walking with us, in touch with us that they
wanted their party in, but not at the costs of
these types of relationships. And Nationals previously had what we
could be seen as a proactive relationship with Maori.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So no, I think again the.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Harm that this creates the fact that we're going to
need to push that the SOLI comittee process doesn't drag
out and it doesn't become LinkedIn to David Seymour's run
into the twenty twenty six election campaign. So I think
this is what we deserve better than to be treated
as political pawns.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So Triti was.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Done full of the wisdom, and our ancestors had absolute foresight.
We've got to remember the context that we were asked
of the nations to be colonized. They'd already seen the
periers of colonization, they've seen what could happen, So there was.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Foresight in this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
And I just think that you know the fact that
National again has decided that we were tradeable and the
manner of their coalition agreement was so much more important
than the manner of Te Triti and Tana Tafenwa. Is,
you know, the deepest betrayal that we've ever had from
a national government.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
A lot of supporters of the bill have made the
point that the courts have been interpreting Te Tarriti for
decades and that defining them in law is easier than
continuing to kind of leave it up to individual judges.
What do you make of that perspective.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I think we've got to remember there were two parties
to the Triiti, and that were the chiefs of Marii,
the who the Ewi and the crown at the time
Queen Victoria's and those are the only two people who
can interfere and change One of the parties has to
say they want to change it. None of the parties have,
(13:12):
so I think, you know, some of those discussions are
distraction from the real purpose here is that our role
is to make sure that honor the treit is honored,
and I think we get distracted with the legal speak.
The reality is it is not for the government or
the car owner tongue to determine ten tend to tonguel
for Mali, those were guaranteed, and how Mali should want
(13:36):
to live as ourselves, uninterrupted with our rights and interests.
Recognize how we continue to thrive and push. But I
guess this is not what the principle bills about. What
David is saying is that he's had enough of indigenous
people and to being recognized. He wants to stop that
and have us all now be equally for New Zealanders,
(13:59):
you know, ignore the fact that there are absolute disparities
and iniquities because of colonization and all that rights and
interests existed beforehand.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And that's just not a starting point. That's not acceptable.
It will never happen.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
No, No, I wasn't. But I you know, I grew
up on the North. I know what hakka are about. However,
I know the intention of them is to intimidate, and
I just ultimately say to people, if you have to
do a hakker to get your point across, maybe you
don't have a good argument.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I guess it's difficult. Hey, because Pakiha specially I've noticed
have this mentality of saying, well, I didn't personally do that,
I didn't do that, Why should I feel the repercussions
of it. That kind of discussion around colonization.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It's like, well, you.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Didn't personally do it, but here are the consequences of
what your forefathers did to us.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Absolutely, yeah, because it does have lots of those kinds
of discussions. And I think, first of all, I don't
know a single Parkier in our lives that agrees with
what's happened here.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I think the thing is, I didn't sign.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Up to have an obligation to look after those that
live in old tet Or. Because my tupen is signed Tetiditi,
Why should I have to feel as indigenous persons that I.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Have to respect.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
But I do because that is the honor of living
on this land and living together.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So I get it. I totally get it. But there's no.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
One's asking for anything other than to live and breathe
and be myself as Mary. I identify proudly to my Wakapapa,
and nowhere else can my grandchildren be called the indigenous
peoples of this Wuenowa. But there comes a responsibility with that.
I have to look after everyone that arrives on this land.
It's my role to MONARCHI because that's what our ancestors
(15:50):
wanted us to do. You go into a Mariah and
you will see every one of my aunties that eighteen
ninety plus will stand up.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And give their seats to every visitor that comes in.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
They will stop, they will make sure they're fed before
they feed themselves. And I think that's the monarchy, that's
the legacy that Tarity installs in us. Are beautiful values
and I think that's what's been missed sadly because of
the blissicization and the fact of the matter is we
be really crude. E wee Maori are the last bastions.
(16:21):
If you want to go in and create a gluting
entity on the Partier River, you have to talk to
the Manafenowa.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You remove that last BASTIONI you.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Have unvetted access to exploit anywhere in anyhow you want.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So those are the responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I'd love to wake up one day and not have
to be a katiarchy, but those are the responsibilities that
we have to our land, to our ocean, to each other.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Do you think there are any benefits to having this debate?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I think there is benefits to be educating each other
and listening to each other. And I actually think when
we were coming from into put it All last night,
I was in tears seeing the hundreds of tongue to
Tarditi on the side and over bridges and hundreds of
It's just phenomenal, and I think the discussions were starting.
(17:13):
You look at our younger generation, they're not as hung
up as a generation.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Who didn't learn about our history.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
We've got a generation that have lived in silos and
I've woken up and they feel like this has just arrived.
So I think there's a lot to be said about
listening to each other, respecting each other, and knowing that
some may never ever get what we have as a
nation more than any other nation in the world. But
I think to bring it in the debating chambers is wrong.
(17:41):
It doesn't belong in the car on and a tongue
of space and parliament space. It belongs out in our communities.
It doesn't belong for politicians to drag it through mud
and to use it as a ploy of why we
should be highlighting our differences instead of working off our strengths.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
What do you hope happens over the next six months
while this bill is before the Select Committee.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
My first hope is that it doesn't drag out for
six months. To be really honest, I hope that there's
some wisdom in the Select Committee and certainly those are
the discussions that Larwie and I are having, and that
we shorten it so that the harm, the harm internally
domestically for alted or is minimized. You know, internationally is
we've just had huge amounts of just force with BBC
(18:26):
and Washington Posts and different international media that are following this,
and you know, what I can see in them is
pure shock. So there's been a lot of damage to
relationships in siding out. So so I'm hoping that they truncated,
that it's a shorter process, that we get it back
into the House and it's voted down, it goes away,
and we come back and we are led into discussions
(18:48):
about what future constitutional transformation needs to look like. And
they've been really healthy debates under the last national government
in Martinquimi, and there'd been just as many non Maldias
Mary having those discussions. That's where it belongs out in
the community, is not as a political toy to sort
of weaponize and feed the those who live off this
(19:10):
type of device of misery and who just don't want
to recognize that we're a nation. There, here's tongue t
Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
(19:47):
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The
Hikoy that started in Cape Rianga has made its way
down the country of the last week and arrives in
Wellington today. While many have taken part in various stages
(00:27):
of the Hikoy, tens of thousands of people are expected
outside the Beehive today as a protest against the government's
policies impacting Malti, including the Treaty Principal's Bill. Tipazi Maldi
have been leading the pushback against the government, notably with
a viral hukka in Parliament during the bill's first reading
(00:49):
that has garnered global attention. The party's co leader, Debbie
Nadewa Paka, joins us today on the Front Page to
discuss the hiccu, that viral hakka and why they are
fighting back so strongly against this coalition government. So, Dabbie,
(01:14):
the Hikoy is set to reach Parliament today. How has
it gone so far?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Amazing?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So Lavely and I were at the very beginning. I
feel like it's seven or eight days ago and it's
just continued. I wasn't there at Tomaki Mikado, but have
been back in there again.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
In the last three days and just amazing spirit.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
A lot of fabulous discipline, a lot of kia coming,
particularly this last week we arrived and put it all
last night.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
There's just an overwhelming sense.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Of support and physical support of Pako of Tana Titi
and I think, you know that's very marshall, very humbling,
but again also very very strong in the messaging against
this bill and it's certainly against the government's agreement on it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Asides from some traffic congestion, there doesn't seem to have
been any incidents along the way. It's been pretty peaceful.
But around thirty thousand people are expected at Parliament today,
which is actually bigger than the twenty twenty two protests.
Do you think the hikoy will remain peaceful with that
many people involved.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, Look, I think those numbers will probably go even higher.
And I kept looking at some of the numbers we
had and Puppy Uia and Parmesan North and Title Bullivian
and put it all last night. Look, I think what's
really important is the passive and the passive way of
doing hikoy and activism is very mildy, and then the
only incident I saw was two sisters were fighting over
(02:44):
who was going to be on the left or the
right hand side of a selfie with me. They are
too focused on what the messaging needs to be, and
unity has been a keyword that has come down from
our King, who we lost recently, from many of those
at the Hickoy nineteen seventy five, and that's continued to
be the way that we mobilize. So now I don't
expect any real incidents other than getting the message across
(03:08):
and again continue on that beautiful spirit of unity.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I actually had a friend in Australia message me at
the weekend asking if I could explain to her in
the simplest way possible, like I was talking to a
five year old, what happened in parliament? How would you
explain the Treaty and the Principal's Bill to my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I think what's happened in Parliament and what this bell
represents is wiping away the existence and the rights that
the indigenous peoples of Old t Edoor had before colonization.
We were the protection to always remember Mary artangua defen
of Altor and the significance. We have as Mary to
(03:49):
look after everyone that comes in it, but not at
the cost of being Mary. I think that's probably the
most simplest way. It's harmful. It hurts not to feel valued.
It really hurts to have seen that we would trade
it off to become part of a coalition agreement.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And so yeah, I think that's you know, it's.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Hurtful and it feels horrible to have to defend being
Maori right now in the ways, either whether it be
in Parliament or.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Through the hikui.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
A forty if six quotes A posts.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
The video of this hauker in Parliament has gone viral,
with people around the world commenting and wanting to learn
more from the outside looking in. It's quite an incredible
moment when Hannah ra would the MP Clark tears that
paper into What did you feel in that moment?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Everything we do is extremely intentional, and you know, I
guess the spirit of it is that TETTI is one
of the most honored documents that you know, we have
the spirit of its intent and also to protect us
and our rights and interests tongue Toenema two. Also you know,
focus on a united ALTI or but if you look at.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
How easy it was to rip it up. It was
you know, it's three to.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Four pages of thin pieces of paper that are shallow,
that have no significance, and.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's you know, to see our youngest do that.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So the spirit of this was, as you know, I
was intentional, was pre planned, but it was also show
the world, look what we've been relegated to, these thin
pieces of paper that were just so easily easily ripped
by our youngest member.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
So I think there's there's a real again, I can't think.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Of other words in the hurt and the absolute intent
to fight this and to show the world what it
is that's happening at the moment. We were a country
that had the first woman's vote where we did, we
went out. We have always you know, punches above our
weight in the anti nuclear space, anti discrimination space, and
here we are in twenty twenty four that the sort
(06:14):
of whole Trump like culture come into our politics.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So yeah, I think you know that's and I think,
you know, we've done.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Really well and so proud of our Hunah and the
party and everyone else that the other opposition parties that
in the gullery, those who the hucker belonged to that
supported this because we had to let the world know
what we're dealing with and what we're having to defend.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, and you know what really hit me when I
saw that video as well, seeing Maria man or Carpa
Kinghi looking at Mighty Clark and you can just see
that she is so full of pride.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Did you feel that as well? Absolutely? Every day.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I mean, you know, I think what we have is
that we are intergenerationally connected. You know, we're the Aunties,
and you know, we've got all different roles because we're
you know, we're real people. But the reality is that
it's going to be Hannah's generation of our population are
under the age of forty that are going to have
to try and rebalance this.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Now. We need to bring balance back into our lives.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
We don't want to be suffering the worst and equalities
that worse, dying eight years before everyone else. We don't
want to be the most imprisoned and suffering in education systems.
We actually don't want that for anyone. So Hannah represents hope,
and what we're hoping that she shows the world is
that we will stand up against this type of bigot
(07:35):
and discrimination and we will bring the world with us.
This younger generation are just phenomenal. So yeah, proud every day.
But if you have a look, they don't stand alone.
They will always be standing in support. And the way
we stage things and do things is to show they
will never ever take hits or be taken on alone.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
We will always be with them.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Recently, former Prime Minister and ex treating the Girlciations Minister
Dame Jenny Shepley has warned the ACT Party is inviting
civil war with the Principal's Bill Seymour said that those
comments were grossly responsible. But what do you make of
those comments?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Well, I agree.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I mean the civil war that we're seen from some
of the racists and the attacks from David Seymour, the
way that they're basically committing treason on the TILITI feels
like they're committing civil war against Tunata Fuenowa. We've never
had to be in this state of defense politicians, and
you know we've had to fight numerous things. You do
(08:35):
not resort to doing that unless you are absolutely at
the acute end of every defense you need to employ
or deploy to take on this attack. And I know
that it's not who she meant the civil war was
coming from but it does feel like it's coming at us,
and you know they're using every school possible and every
influence and it's really really with these such a deep
(08:59):
rooted sense of being portrayed. That the Prime Minister could
trade the manna of the trity for a three year
coalition agreement, I just and I can't explain it. And
I think that's the hardest thing when our Antayo Tamataga
kids are asking us, but why you know it's going
to be Why.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Would he do that for three years?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's just absolute power can do you know, can make
people do some.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Really sad, sick things.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
So yeah, I can understand where she's coming from, but
I think she thought the war was going to come
from us.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
On the other side, what do you make of people
saying to Patimori is too radical, that the party only
wants anarchy and is stoking racial divisions, and if the
roles were reversed, if this was a Paki house saying
all these kinds of things they say, it would be
called racist. What do you make of those comments?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, I get how people see us, because we are
up against it. We have been backed in a corner
to have to come out fighting. Prior to this, you know,
we have unfortunately, we have some of the worst statistics
in house stats and as I said on their social
stats that we just just as sets. We just don't
want in order to address that. We know that we're
put in here to push for transformational change. We've got
(10:20):
a government that's back reversed everything back so much that
we have to continuously push for a balance. And when
you're pushing to bring something to float and yeah, it's
just so adrift and you have to work really hard
to bring the balance back. It does probably seem like
we are radical, but we are absolutely committed to rebalancing,
(10:42):
to commitments of living as Tatileti proposes, to developing a
beautiful nation that's full of peace in Adha. When you're
up against the kind of you know, extremism that we're seeing,
which again feels like some of the Trump politics, you.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Cannot just take it on gently.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
You do have to be transformational and intentional and provocative
and everything we do to fight our cause.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So the National Party in New Zealand first say that
they're voted for the first reading of this bill, but
they've made it very clear that they won't support it
beyond this reading. Do you think that's good enough?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No, I don't, and I think that's that's the deep shame.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And we've had just as many National voters, ex National
voters walking with us, in touch with us that they
wanted their party in, but not at the costs of
these types of relationships. And Nationals previously had what we
could be seen as a proactive relationship with Maori.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So no, I think again the.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Harm that this creates the fact that we're going to
need to push that the SOLI comittee process doesn't drag
out and it doesn't become LinkedIn to David Seymour's run
into the twenty twenty six election campaign. So I think
this is what we deserve better than to be treated
as political pawns.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So Triti was.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Done full of the wisdom, and our ancestors had absolute foresight.
We've got to remember the context that we were asked
of the nations to be colonized. They'd already seen the
periers of colonization, they've seen what could happen, So there was.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Foresight in this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
And I just think that you know the fact that
National again has decided that we were tradeable and the
manner of their coalition agreement was so much more important
than the manner of Te Triti and Tana Tafenwa. Is,
you know, the deepest betrayal that we've ever had from
a national government.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
A lot of supporters of the bill have made the
point that the courts have been interpreting Te Tarriti for
decades and that defining them in law is easier than
continuing to kind of leave it up to individual judges.
What do you make of that perspective.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I think we've got to remember there were two parties
to the Triiti, and that were the chiefs of Marii,
the who the Ewi and the crown at the time
Queen Victoria's and those are the only two people who
can interfere and change One of the parties has to
say they want to change it. None of the parties have,
(13:12):
so I think, you know, some of those discussions are
distraction from the real purpose here is that our role
is to make sure that honor the treit is honored,
and I think we get distracted with the legal speak.
The reality is it is not for the government or
the car owner tongue to determine ten tend to tonguel
for Mali, those were guaranteed, and how Mali should want
(13:36):
to live as ourselves, uninterrupted with our rights and interests.
Recognize how we continue to thrive and push. But I
guess this is not what the principle bills about. What
David is saying is that he's had enough of indigenous
people and to being recognized. He wants to stop that
and have us all now be equally for New Zealanders,
(13:59):
you know, ignore the fact that there are absolute disparities
and iniquities because of colonization and all that rights and
interests existed beforehand.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And that's just not a starting point. That's not acceptable.
It will never happen.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
No, No, I wasn't. But I you know, I grew
up on the North. I know what hakka are about. However,
I know the intention of them is to intimidate, and
I just ultimately say to people, if you have to
do a hakker to get your point across, maybe you
don't have a good argument.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I guess it's difficult. Hey, because Pakiha specially I've noticed
have this mentality of saying, well, I didn't personally do that,
I didn't do that, Why should I feel the repercussions
of it. That kind of discussion around colonization.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It's like, well, you.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Didn't personally do it, but here are the consequences of
what your forefathers did to us.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Absolutely, yeah, because it does have lots of those kinds
of discussions. And I think, first of all, I don't
know a single Parkier in our lives that agrees with
what's happened here.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I think the thing is, I didn't sign.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Up to have an obligation to look after those that
live in old tet Or. Because my tupen is signed Tetiditi,
Why should I have to feel as indigenous persons that I.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Have to respect.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
But I do because that is the honor of living
on this land and living together.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So I get it. I totally get it. But there's no.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
One's asking for anything other than to live and breathe
and be myself as Mary. I identify proudly to my Wakapapa,
and nowhere else can my grandchildren be called the indigenous
peoples of this Wuenowa. But there comes a responsibility with that.
I have to look after everyone that arrives on this land.
It's my role to MONARCHI because that's what our ancestors
(15:50):
wanted us to do. You go into a Mariah and
you will see every one of my aunties that eighteen
ninety plus will stand up.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And give their seats to every visitor that comes in.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
They will stop, they will make sure they're fed before
they feed themselves. And I think that's the monarchy, that's
the legacy that Tarity installs in us. Are beautiful values
and I think that's what's been missed sadly because of
the blissicization and the fact of the matter is we
be really crude. E wee Maori are the last bastions.
(16:21):
If you want to go in and create a gluting
entity on the Partier River, you have to talk to
the Manafenowa.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You remove that last BASTIONI you.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Have unvetted access to exploit anywhere in anyhow you want.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So those are the responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I'd love to wake up one day and not have
to be a katiarchy, but those are the responsibilities that
we have to our land, to our ocean, to each other.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Do you think there are any benefits to having this debate?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I think there is benefits to be educating each other
and listening to each other. And I actually think when
we were coming from into put it All last night,
I was in tears seeing the hundreds of tongue to
Tarditi on the side and over bridges and hundreds of
It's just phenomenal, and I think the discussions were starting.
(17:13):
You look at our younger generation, they're not as hung
up as a generation.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Who didn't learn about our history.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
We've got a generation that have lived in silos and
I've woken up and they feel like this has just arrived.
So I think there's a lot to be said about
listening to each other, respecting each other, and knowing that
some may never ever get what we have as a
nation more than any other nation in the world. But
I think to bring it in the debating chambers is wrong.
(17:41):
It doesn't belong in the car on and a tongue
of space and parliament space. It belongs out in our communities.
It doesn't belong for politicians to drag it through mud
and to use it as a ploy of why we
should be highlighting our differences instead of working off our strengths.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
What do you hope happens over the next six months
while this bill is before the Select Committee.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
My first hope is that it doesn't drag out for
six months. To be really honest, I hope that there's
some wisdom in the Select Committee and certainly those are
the discussions that Larwie and I are having, and that
we shorten it so that the harm, the harm internally
domestically for alted or is minimized. You know, internationally is
we've just had huge amounts of just force with BBC
(18:26):
and Washington Posts and different international media that are following this,
and you know, what I can see in them is
pure shock. So there's been a lot of damage to
relationships in siding out. So so I'm hoping that they truncated,
that it's a shorter process, that we get it back
into the House and it's voted down, it goes away,
and we come back and we are led into discussions
(18:48):
about what future constitutional transformation needs to look like. And
they've been really healthy debates under the last national government
in Martinquimi, and there'd been just as many non Maldias
Mary having those discussions. That's where it belongs out in
the community, is not as a political toy to sort
of weaponize and feed the those who live off this
(19:10):
type of device of misery and who just don't want
to recognize that we're a nation. There, here's tongue t
Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
(19:47):
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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