October 19, 2025 • 17 mins
This week will see mass walk outs across the country as 100,000 teachers and medical staff go on strike.
This Thursday, October 23, 11,500 Allied Health workers will walk off the job, as well as:
- 35-hundred mental health and public health nurses and mental health assistants,
- more than 36,000 nurses, midwives, health care assistants, and
- 400 nurses and health care assistants working for Corrections.
On top of all this, in a historic first, primary school teachers, primary principals, school support staff, and Ministry of Education specialist staff as well as secondary and area schoolteachers will all strike together.
Today on The Front Page, PPTA President Chris Abercrombie is with us to take us through what needs to change in our education sector.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. This week,
we'll see mass walkouts across the country as one hundred
thousand teachers and medical staff go on strike this Thursday,
(00:26):
October twenty third, eleven thousand, five hundred allied health workers
will walk off the job, as well as thirty five
hundred mental health and public health nurses and mental health assistants,
more than thirty six thousand nurses, midwives, healthcare assistants, and
four hundred nurses and healthcare assistants working for corrections.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
On top of all of this, in a historic first.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Primary school teachers, primary Principles, school support staff and Ministry
of Education specialist staff as secondary and area school teachers
will all strike together.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Today on the front page.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
PPTA President Chris Abercrombie is with us to take us
through what needs to change in our education sector.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So, Chris, this is a huge display.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
You've got primary and secondary schools, teachers and assistants all
striking across the country.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
What has led to this.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, it's really disappointing that it's happening at all, and
it's not just teachers, as there's nurses, there's public servants,
there's care workers, there's a whole range of workers really
just showing their unhappiness with what's happening at the moment.
What's lead for us in particular is around really our
issues aren't being addressed, and we know there is significant
(01:49):
unmet need in our secondaries, particularly our secondary schools at
the moment, be it mental health needs, be a specific
learning needs, being lots of other things.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
And we really need that need met.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
We've got this government introducing once in a generation curriculum
and assessment change, and we need a workforce to to
be able to deliver that.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Is this just the worst time to introduce a curriculum change.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Well, it seems to be everything all at once, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So we've got, you know, from the primary sector, we've
got structured literacy, mass mastery. We've also got an attendance focus.
Now in secondary, we're doing a new curriculum area. Junior
primary schools already looking at new curriculum areas. We've got
a whole new subjects coming in a secondary and then
we've also got a whole new assessment on top of that,
(02:35):
we're creating a national vocational pathways that we've never had,
and a whole new system to deliver that in two years.
It's a very big ask of the government to do
this at the time we're having chronic teacher.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Shortages and in order to get those teachers, and you've
got to pay them fairly.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, so terms and paying conditions. Terms and conditions are
a really key part of this. And you know, it
pays important and I never want to say it's not,
but actually, what I'm hearing more and more from our
teachers is actually the conditions. It's the issues around having
enough pastoral care time, having enough professional development, having enough
curriculum support. That's the things that they're actually they're talking
(03:16):
to me about when I visit schools, and I visit
schools all the time. I was in Northland this week
visiting secondary schools there, and that's what they're telling me.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What about people who say, oh, you get all these
school holidays?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Though, oh, look, it would be amazing if we did.
And this is one of the funny things about it.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And often the people that tell us how great our
job is and how easy it is will also be
the same ones that will say, oh, I can never
do that though. So look, teaching is an amazing profession
and there's this weird mix of flexible and inflexible time,
and term breaks are often that flexible time where teachers.
You know, I attended several conferences. These holidays were subject associations.
(03:56):
Our conference was these holidays, and I know every school
holidays is number of conferences.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Teachers will refuse to teach certain class levels from year
seven to thirteen on certain days.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
How disruptive is this for the kids?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Well, unfortunately, it does create disruption.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
It is less disruptive than a full strike, and that's
the reason that teachers have chosen to do this because
the vast majority of students are still at school and
it creates less time out of class. So most students
well in the next from this weekend, next week will
most likely be around two hours of our teaching time
miss for each subject. So it's an attempt to lessen
(04:40):
that disruption because we understand it's an important time.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Teachers have been working hard with their students all year
to get them up to that point.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So it is disruptive and it's disappointing that it is,
but unfortunately that's what we have to do.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
We want to make make sure that those children who
are going into exams aren't going to be missing out
on the final few days that they have with their
teachers before they sit their exams, will sit their mock
exams which they get their derived grades from that they're
in class with those teachers. And unfortunately we haven't been
able to get to that position. But it's not through
lack of trying and good faith on our side.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So this is all happening in the lead up to
and during INCA exams. I saw Erica Stanford actually tell
Morning Report the kids need their teacher in front of
them for that very last minute revision. So how do
you respond to public and parents' concerns about this disruption
to students learning during this formative time.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Well, again, I think teacher that work really hard with
the students the whole year to prepare them for this.
Teachers will be available outside of the industrial time to
support students, and the sort of the claim that was
going to disrupt exams, it's just not true. Teachers aren't
allowed anywhere near the exams. Quite rightly, you can be
supervising your own students and the NCAA examine.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
We're not even allowed in the room while the exams
are taking place. So that's a bit of a red hearing.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Teachers say, I've been working really hard to support their
students and they will be available outside of the industrial
time to again support them and to help them achieve
at the best of the level they can.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
How many more kids these days do require that extra support?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Can you give me an example whectually?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
There's a really good example in a recent there's a
survey called tell Us and it's an international survey new
Zealand teachers. So a quarter of New Zealand teachers report
that at least ten percent of students at their school
need some sort of support, and so some of the
highest in the world in that. So our teachers are saying, hey,
(06:48):
we need support, Our students need more support. And that's
for lots of reasons. We're understanding things are much better.
We understand the brain much better, how it works. We're
recognizing things when I was at school a long time ago,
now we didn't really recognize. I think about my mother,
my mother's dyslexic, but when she went to school, she
was just dumb because that's what they thought back then.
(07:11):
And so making those sort of understanding that a bit better,
meaning that we're needing more and more. But also our
students are in a very complex world, way more complex
than when I was at school, or most people were
at school in living in a world that really if
you're an older person you just can't understand. And so
(07:33):
if you're not dealing with teenagers every single day, you
just can't really understand the world.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
They're living in.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, do you think that there's an increase in learning
difficulties or you know, just is there just more awareness
about different needs that we haven't really prioritized in the past.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I think it's definitely more awareness of different needs that
again that we hadn't prioritized in the past, or we're
never recognized in the past. And also there's we know
there's an increase in sort of anxiety issues, mental health issues,
and we need to be able to support those students
in the school so we can get.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
On with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
That's the really key part to this is that we
need the support so that can be dealt with so
the teachers can get on with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I guess so when someone starts a sentence with well,
back in my day, you.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Must roll your eyes. You must get that all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Absolutely. And look, I grew up in a very small
rural town. You know, I had the ninety people in
my hometown. I went to a two teacher, three teacher primary.
I went to a very small rural secondary, and so
my education was very sort of I wes sort of standard.
And it's just so different to that nowadays. And I
(08:45):
know people say, oh, it's all the same, but it's
really not. It's such a complex changing role now. One
example I can give actually is around bullying. Actually, you know,
back when I was at school, you know, and bullying happened,
they didn't bring up the landline and go hello missus
Abra Crombie clim please billy your son.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, then you write you a letter.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And now with the world it is and how connected
we are, it's potentially twenty four to seven for these
young people, and it's and I know it's easy for
older people to say, I'll just turn off your phone
or uninstall Instagram or whatever, But for these young people,
that's the connection to the world, connection with their friends,
and so it's really hard for us to sort of
(09:28):
understand that world.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Again, if you're not dealing with teenagers every day. It's
really hard for you to understand.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, that really leads me into my next question because
it was going to be has technology improved teaching or
added new pressures? But I suppose you're probably dodging AI left,
right and center as well.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
It's a bit of both. So I think the key
thing is that teachers really see technology as a tool.
Is you know, like like you see anything and your
talk and a certain situation, that tool is amazing and
it's going to really help that teaching and that learning
to take place, and other times.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Is actually going to hinder it's actually going to take
away from it.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And so that's one of the things around the professional
development teachers want is that actually we need to upscale
ourselves before we can support the students because we often,
and I really dislike this phrase, the students are digital
natives and digital and I don't really like that because
there's just as complex for them as it is for anyone.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Ouse it's just then more willing to give it a go.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
They're more willing to have a crack at it and
not worry about those things that sort of you know,
older people or people who are a bit more concerned
about it will be. And I think some things have
been really good. And I'll give props to the government
for this. About the cell phone band, I know teachers
were really worried about how that was actually going to work,
but from all accounts i've heard, it's been really positive
(10:49):
and leading some really positive outcomes. So we can make
these changes, it's just making sure we've got the.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Support to do it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
How's morale amongst teachers at the moment.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's a tough question to so I visit schools quite
often and there describe this They because they love teaching,
like they love the role, they love being in the classroom.
Often I get asked, I've been out of the classroom
a couple of years to take on this president role,
and they're like, do you miss teaching? Absolutely, I've missed
being in the classroom. I missed the teaching, but a
(11:21):
lot of the stuff outside of it. That's that's where
the issues come in, sort of the significant government change.
And I mentioned the Talus report. New Zealand teachers are
some of the most stressed in the world, were the
third most stress according to the survey, and most of
that is driven by the constant change put forward by
the government, and so that's putting a lot of pressure
(11:42):
on schools on principles, I'm learning support.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
On all aspects of the sector. It's putting a lot
of pressure on it.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
If we put pay and benefits to the side, just
for a second, what realistically, can you give me any numbers?
We need this many teacher support aids, we need this
many new classrooms, we need this many new people.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So we know, for instance, from the government the Ministry stats,
we're five hundred and fifty secondary teachers short this year
and we're five hundred short for next year, so that
those are the numbers we're talking about. But when we
survey principles is actually a bit higher. Its closer to
thee thousand mark, because what schools are doing is they're
using people to sort of cover a position. So it
say I'm a history teacher, i might be teaching physics.
(12:24):
Now I'll give it a good crack, but those students
aren't going to get the best deal out of me
as a physics teacher. And so we think the numbers
more around about one thousand short. But also we know
we've got an aging workforce, and so in the next
five to ten years, that number is going to significantly increase.
And we also know we need significant investment into professional
(12:46):
development to support.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
These changes coming through.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So in the last budget, the government took sixty million
dollars out of secondary and put that into some primary initiatives.
So we're already down that significant resource and secondary and
so we really need to at least, you know, focus
on getting that back up.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And then the future budgets coming going forward.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I had a similar conversation with nurses and they say, look,
it's better doing local work and casual work. Is it
the same for teachers? Is relief work actually pay better?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So on a per a day rate, yes it does.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
You don't get the holiday paid the same, it gets
included in your pacement, but in your day pay.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
But you can be five days a week, every day
every week.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Doing relief and there's a significant short Yeah, the works there,
there's significant shortage, and there's lots of reasons for that.
One of the big ones is actually schools are bringing
people back into the workforce and the full time workforce,
so they're using their relievers as full time, perimanent teachers.
When using a lot of retired teachers, I visited one
of my old schools last year and was still.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
One of my teachers there.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
She said, I retired, Chris, but I have to come
back in because the.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
School needed me. And so that's a really common thing.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
It's sort of becoming a bit of a joke called
the old teacher retirement.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I know a few teachers every tired four.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Times now, but they keep coming back in because the
school needs them.
Speaker 6 (14:23):
Kis are getting a bit sick of the union's going
on straight action rather than actually because it's putting our
kids who have missed out on a lot of school
off school. We've got a lot of students about to
go into exam mode. We are also a lot of patients, frankly,
that are also wanting to get through the weight lesson
into surgeries as well, so they can get through the
pain and suffering. I've got Our only ask is that
we just want the youths to come around the table
(14:44):
and negotiate. We appreciate we don't have a bottomless pit
of money. We know we've got very straight and economic times.
We've got to deal with that reality. But the answer
is not to go into strike action and cause pain
and suffering for parents and kids and patients. The answer
is actually get around the table and stick with it
and to go through bargaining process.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How confident are you that this strike will do anything.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I'm always optimistic about this.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
We know from previous experience, we know from lots of
other conversations we've had that that these do shift the
needle because it shows the government how willing we are,
how important this is, that will fore go pay, that
will take these chances here to.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Really push for an improvement in terms of conditions.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And there's an old saying, you know, teachers working conditions,
of students learning conditions. So if we've got a well
supported teacher workforce, then we're going to have a well
supported student body our young people. And there's heaps of
evidence of if you have a workforce that is dedicated
and focused, you can get change. The increase in attendance,
for instance, the changes in the structured literacy and numeracy
(15:51):
that was well supported and we've seen change in that.
And so if you support the teachers, they'll do the
main and you've supports the schools, they'll get the job done.
But when we don't have the teacher expertise, we don't
have the subject specialist. When we're not getting the learning support,
when our guidance counselors are under the pump supporting students
with mental health issues because there's no care in the
(16:11):
community for them, then it makes it hard to keep
those successes going.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Is the government willing though.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Oh, look, I think they are. They keep saying they
want a world class education system. Well, if you want
a world class education system, you have to pay for it.
You can't have that on the g And it's all
about political decisions. They're as simple as that. The government
just needs to make the decision to fund education, to
fund teachers, to fund schools. And they'll say, oh, we're
(16:39):
doing this, we're building classrooms and we're doing this, and
we're doing that. But without the workforce to fill those classrooms,
without the workforce to fill those teacher aird roles or
those senco roles, with those learning support roles, then there's
no point in them. You need to make sure you've
got your workforce there to implement your changes, the changes
that you want, and then they're be abule to get
(16:59):
the best outcomes.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
For the young people.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Thanks for joining us, Chris, no worries.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(17:30):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. This week,
we'll see mass walkouts across the country as one hundred
thousand teachers and medical staff go on strike this Thursday,
(00:26):
October twenty third, eleven thousand, five hundred allied health workers
will walk off the job, as well as thirty five
hundred mental health and public health nurses and mental health assistants,
more than thirty six thousand nurses, midwives, healthcare assistants, and
four hundred nurses and healthcare assistants working for corrections.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
On top of all of this, in a historic first.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Primary school teachers, primary Principles, school support staff and Ministry
of Education specialist staff as secondary and area school teachers
will all strike together.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Today on the front page.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
PPTA President Chris Abercrombie is with us to take us
through what needs to change in our education sector.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So, Chris, this is a huge display.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
You've got primary and secondary schools, teachers and assistants all
striking across the country.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
What has led to this.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, it's really disappointing that it's happening at all, and
it's not just teachers, as there's nurses, there's public servants,
there's care workers, there's a whole range of workers really
just showing their unhappiness with what's happening at the moment.
What's lead for us in particular is around really our
issues aren't being addressed, and we know there is significant
(01:49):
unmet need in our secondaries, particularly our secondary schools at
the moment, be it mental health needs, be a specific
learning needs, being lots of other things.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
And we really need that need met.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
We've got this government introducing once in a generation curriculum
and assessment change, and we need a workforce to to
be able to deliver that.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Is this just the worst time to introduce a curriculum change.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Well, it seems to be everything all at once, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So we've got, you know, from the primary sector, we've
got structured literacy, mass mastery. We've also got an attendance focus.
Now in secondary, we're doing a new curriculum area. Junior
primary schools already looking at new curriculum areas. We've got
a whole new subjects coming in a secondary and then
we've also got a whole new assessment on top of that,
(02:35):
we're creating a national vocational pathways that we've never had,
and a whole new system to deliver that in two years.
It's a very big ask of the government to do
this at the time we're having chronic teacher.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Shortages and in order to get those teachers, and you've
got to pay them fairly.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, so terms and paying conditions. Terms and conditions are
a really key part of this. And you know, it
pays important and I never want to say it's not,
but actually, what I'm hearing more and more from our
teachers is actually the conditions. It's the issues around having
enough pastoral care time, having enough professional development, having enough
curriculum support. That's the things that they're actually they're talking
(03:16):
to me about when I visit schools, and I visit
schools all the time. I was in Northland this week
visiting secondary schools there, and that's what they're telling me.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What about people who say, oh, you get all these
school holidays?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Though, oh, look, it would be amazing if we did.
And this is one of the funny things about it.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And often the people that tell us how great our
job is and how easy it is will also be
the same ones that will say, oh, I can never
do that though. So look, teaching is an amazing profession
and there's this weird mix of flexible and inflexible time,
and term breaks are often that flexible time where teachers.
You know, I attended several conferences. These holidays were subject associations.
(03:56):
Our conference was these holidays, and I know every school
holidays is number of conferences.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Teachers will refuse to teach certain class levels from year
seven to thirteen on certain days.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
How disruptive is this for the kids?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Well, unfortunately, it does create disruption.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
It is less disruptive than a full strike, and that's
the reason that teachers have chosen to do this because
the vast majority of students are still at school and
it creates less time out of class. So most students
well in the next from this weekend, next week will
most likely be around two hours of our teaching time
miss for each subject. So it's an attempt to lessen
(04:40):
that disruption because we understand it's an important time.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Teachers have been working hard with their students all year
to get them up to that point.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So it is disruptive and it's disappointing that it is,
but unfortunately that's what we have to do.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
We want to make make sure that those children who
are going into exams aren't going to be missing out
on the final few days that they have with their
teachers before they sit their exams, will sit their mock
exams which they get their derived grades from that they're
in class with those teachers. And unfortunately we haven't been
able to get to that position. But it's not through
lack of trying and good faith on our side.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So this is all happening in the lead up to
and during INCA exams. I saw Erica Stanford actually tell
Morning Report the kids need their teacher in front of
them for that very last minute revision. So how do
you respond to public and parents' concerns about this disruption
to students learning during this formative time.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Well, again, I think teacher that work really hard with
the students the whole year to prepare them for this.
Teachers will be available outside of the industrial time to
support students, and the sort of the claim that was
going to disrupt exams, it's just not true. Teachers aren't
allowed anywhere near the exams. Quite rightly, you can be
supervising your own students and the NCAA examine.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
We're not even allowed in the room while the exams
are taking place. So that's a bit of a red hearing.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Teachers say, I've been working really hard to support their
students and they will be available outside of the industrial
time to again support them and to help them achieve
at the best of the level they can.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
How many more kids these days do require that extra support?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Can you give me an example whectually?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
There's a really good example in a recent there's a
survey called tell Us and it's an international survey new
Zealand teachers. So a quarter of New Zealand teachers report
that at least ten percent of students at their school
need some sort of support, and so some of the
highest in the world in that. So our teachers are saying, hey,
(06:48):
we need support, Our students need more support. And that's
for lots of reasons. We're understanding things are much better.
We understand the brain much better, how it works. We're
recognizing things when I was at school a long time ago,
now we didn't really recognize. I think about my mother,
my mother's dyslexic, but when she went to school, she
was just dumb because that's what they thought back then.
(07:11):
And so making those sort of understanding that a bit better,
meaning that we're needing more and more. But also our
students are in a very complex world, way more complex
than when I was at school, or most people were
at school in living in a world that really if
you're an older person you just can't understand. And so
(07:33):
if you're not dealing with teenagers every single day, you
just can't really understand the world.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
They're living in.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, do you think that there's an increase in learning
difficulties or you know, just is there just more awareness
about different needs that we haven't really prioritized in the past.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I think it's definitely more awareness of different needs that
again that we hadn't prioritized in the past, or we're
never recognized in the past. And also there's we know
there's an increase in sort of anxiety issues, mental health issues,
and we need to be able to support those students
in the school so we can get.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
On with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
That's the really key part to this is that we
need the support so that can be dealt with so
the teachers can get on with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I guess so when someone starts a sentence with well,
back in my day, you.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Must roll your eyes. You must get that all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Absolutely. And look, I grew up in a very small
rural town. You know, I had the ninety people in
my hometown. I went to a two teacher, three teacher primary.
I went to a very small rural secondary, and so
my education was very sort of I wes sort of standard.
And it's just so different to that nowadays. And I
(08:45):
know people say, oh, it's all the same, but it's
really not. It's such a complex changing role now. One
example I can give actually is around bullying. Actually, you know,
back when I was at school, you know, and bullying happened,
they didn't bring up the landline and go hello missus
Abra Crombie clim please billy your son.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, then you write you a letter.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And now with the world it is and how connected
we are, it's potentially twenty four to seven for these
young people, and it's and I know it's easy for
older people to say, I'll just turn off your phone
or uninstall Instagram or whatever, But for these young people,
that's the connection to the world, connection with their friends,
and so it's really hard for us to sort of
(09:28):
understand that world.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Again, if you're not dealing with teenagers every day. It's
really hard for you to understand.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, that really leads me into my next question because
it was going to be has technology improved teaching or
added new pressures? But I suppose you're probably dodging AI left,
right and center as well.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
It's a bit of both. So I think the key
thing is that teachers really see technology as a tool.
Is you know, like like you see anything and your
talk and a certain situation, that tool is amazing and
it's going to really help that teaching and that learning
to take place, and other times.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Is actually going to hinder it's actually going to take
away from it.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And so that's one of the things around the professional
development teachers want is that actually we need to upscale
ourselves before we can support the students because we often,
and I really dislike this phrase, the students are digital
natives and digital and I don't really like that because
there's just as complex for them as it is for anyone.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Ouse it's just then more willing to give it a go.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
They're more willing to have a crack at it and
not worry about those things that sort of you know,
older people or people who are a bit more concerned
about it will be. And I think some things have
been really good. And I'll give props to the government
for this. About the cell phone band, I know teachers
were really worried about how that was actually going to work,
but from all accounts i've heard, it's been really positive
(10:49):
and leading some really positive outcomes. So we can make
these changes, it's just making sure we've got the.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Support to do it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
How's morale amongst teachers at the moment.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That's a tough question to so I visit schools quite
often and there describe this They because they love teaching,
like they love the role, they love being in the classroom.
Often I get asked, I've been out of the classroom
a couple of years to take on this president role,
and they're like, do you miss teaching? Absolutely, I've missed
being in the classroom. I missed the teaching, but a
(11:21):
lot of the stuff outside of it. That's that's where
the issues come in, sort of the significant government change.
And I mentioned the Talus report. New Zealand teachers are
some of the most stressed in the world, were the
third most stress according to the survey, and most of
that is driven by the constant change put forward by
the government, and so that's putting a lot of pressure
(11:42):
on schools on principles, I'm learning support.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
On all aspects of the sector. It's putting a lot
of pressure on it.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
If we put pay and benefits to the side, just
for a second, what realistically, can you give me any numbers?
We need this many teacher support aids, we need this
many new classrooms, we need this many new people.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So we know, for instance, from the government the Ministry stats,
we're five hundred and fifty secondary teachers short this year
and we're five hundred short for next year, so that
those are the numbers we're talking about. But when we
survey principles is actually a bit higher. Its closer to
thee thousand mark, because what schools are doing is they're
using people to sort of cover a position. So it
say I'm a history teacher, i might be teaching physics.
(12:24):
Now I'll give it a good crack, but those students
aren't going to get the best deal out of me
as a physics teacher. And so we think the numbers
more around about one thousand short. But also we know
we've got an aging workforce, and so in the next
five to ten years, that number is going to significantly increase.
And we also know we need significant investment into professional
(12:46):
development to support.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
These changes coming through.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So in the last budget, the government took sixty million
dollars out of secondary and put that into some primary initiatives.
So we're already down that significant resource and secondary and
so we really need to at least, you know, focus
on getting that back up.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And then the future budgets coming going forward.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I had a similar conversation with nurses and they say, look,
it's better doing local work and casual work. Is it
the same for teachers? Is relief work actually pay better?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So on a per a day rate, yes it does.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
You don't get the holiday paid the same, it gets
included in your pacement, but in your day pay.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
But you can be five days a week, every day
every week.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Doing relief and there's a significant short Yeah, the works there,
there's significant shortage, and there's lots of reasons for that.
One of the big ones is actually schools are bringing
people back into the workforce and the full time workforce,
so they're using their relievers as full time, perimanent teachers.
When using a lot of retired teachers, I visited one
of my old schools last year and was still.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
One of my teachers there.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
She said, I retired, Chris, but I have to come
back in because the.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
School needed me. And so that's a really common thing.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
It's sort of becoming a bit of a joke called
the old teacher retirement.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I know a few teachers every tired four.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Times now, but they keep coming back in because the
school needs them.
Speaker 6 (14:23):
Kis are getting a bit sick of the union's going
on straight action rather than actually because it's putting our
kids who have missed out on a lot of school
off school. We've got a lot of students about to
go into exam mode. We are also a lot of patients, frankly,
that are also wanting to get through the weight lesson
into surgeries as well, so they can get through the
pain and suffering. I've got Our only ask is that
we just want the youths to come around the table
(14:44):
and negotiate. We appreciate we don't have a bottomless pit
of money. We know we've got very straight and economic times.
We've got to deal with that reality. But the answer
is not to go into strike action and cause pain
and suffering for parents and kids and patients. The answer
is actually get around the table and stick with it
and to go through bargaining process.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How confident are you that this strike will do anything.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I'm always optimistic about this.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
We know from previous experience, we know from lots of
other conversations we've had that that these do shift the
needle because it shows the government how willing we are,
how important this is, that will fore go pay, that
will take these chances here to.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Really push for an improvement in terms of conditions.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And there's an old saying, you know, teachers working conditions,
of students learning conditions. So if we've got a well
supported teacher workforce, then we're going to have a well
supported student body our young people. And there's heaps of
evidence of if you have a workforce that is dedicated
and focused, you can get change. The increase in attendance,
for instance, the changes in the structured literacy and numeracy
(15:51):
that was well supported and we've seen change in that.
And so if you support the teachers, they'll do the
main and you've supports the schools, they'll get the job done.
But when we don't have the teacher expertise, we don't
have the subject specialist. When we're not getting the learning support,
when our guidance counselors are under the pump supporting students
with mental health issues because there's no care in the
(16:11):
community for them, then it makes it hard to keep
those successes going.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Is the government willing though.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Oh, look, I think they are. They keep saying they
want a world class education system. Well, if you want
a world class education system, you have to pay for it.
You can't have that on the g And it's all
about political decisions. They're as simple as that. The government
just needs to make the decision to fund education, to
fund teachers, to fund schools. And they'll say, oh, we're
(16:39):
doing this, we're building classrooms and we're doing this, and
we're doing that. But without the workforce to fill those classrooms,
without the workforce to fill those teacher aird roles or
those senco roles, with those learning support roles, then there's
no point in them. You need to make sure you've
got your workforce there to implement your changes, the changes
that you want, and then they're be abule to get
(16:59):
the best outcomes.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
For the young people.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Thanks for joining us, Chris, no worries.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(17:30):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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