March 10, 2026 • 39 mins
This weeks episode of The Nutters Club, explored how everyday anxiety can escalate into panic attacks, and why understanding the process is key to recovery.
The episode focused on panic attacks, intense physical episodes that can include sweating, racing heart, dizziness, and overwhelming fear. Williams shared his own experience with panic triggered by heights, recalling a frightening moment while visiting the top of the Statue of Liberty. Even recalling the memory, he said, can still trigger physical sensations such as sweaty palms.
Psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald explained that panic attacks often arise when natural fear responses become amplified. “Almost everything we get anxious about is understandable,” McDonald said. “The problem isn’t that we feel frightened it’s that the volume gets turned up too high.”
According to MacDonald, panic attacks often follow a cycle known as “fear of fear”. An initial anxiety response triggers physical symptoms, such as rapid breathing or a racing heart, which can then cause people to become frightened of the sensations themselves. This escalating loop can lead to a full panic attack.
Because the physical symptoms mimic serious medical conditions, many people experiencing their first panic attack believe they are having a heart attack.
The programme featured calls from listeners sharing their own experiences with anxiety. One caller described feeling overwhelmed while caring for his parents through serious illness and navigating major life changes. Another listener spoke about how panic attacks can strike unexpectedly in everyday situations, such as shopping in a supermarket.
MacDonald emphasised that while anxiety disorders can feel debilitating, they are highly treatable.
Short-term relief can sometimes come through medication, though some medications carry risks of dependency. However, psychological treatments, particularly cognitive behavioural therapy, are widely recognised as effective in helping people understand and manage anxiety responses.
Avoidance, MacDonald noted, is often what allows anxiety to grow.
“When people start avoiding the situations that trigger anxiety, their world can shrink very quickly,” he said. “The key is learning to tolerate the anxiety long enough to discover that it will pass.”
The programme also highlighted support services available in New Zealand, including the free 1737 Need to Talk mental health helpline, which offers 24-hour phone and text counselling.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome. I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to
the podcast version of The Nutter's Club, a radio show
about mental health broadcast weekly on News Talks ZEDB. Each
week we talk with people about mental health experiences in
the hope that it might help you with your own.
The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights on News
(00:40):
Talk s ed B right across New Zealand and around
the world. On this week's show, we took a look
at how anxiety can occur and how it can escalate
into panic attacks as well as depression. Psychotherapist Carl MacDonald
guided our callers through their own experiences for what is
a highly treatable mental health condition. Let us know what
(01:03):
you think, as well as what you learn from our
chat on any of our social media platforms. Just search
for the Nutters Club ends it and come and join
over one hundred and forty one thousand fellow Nutters. Let's
get into this week's episode. I can tell you right now,
I've been talking with family and friends all over the
country all over the world, as I sort of introduced
(01:25):
the show like that, that's also sometimes what I do.
And actually this morning I was on the phone to
family in Boston. Oh yeah, Boston, Uisay, So we've got
family there. They're not American, they're originally from the UK,
but they live and live and work in Boston and
they a lovely part of them American. Yeah, you know,
(01:46):
I've actually been visited them, A very civilized part of
the world. Yes, Boston. Anyway, so we was talking to
them and one of one of our my wife's cousins,
she's got a young family, and she was just saying, oh,
you know, she was just saying about her mum was
saying anyway, just sort of saying, oh, look, you know
how panicked she is feeling about things. Obviously with all
(02:10):
of the global goings ons.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
America is at war apparently.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well that's it, you know, And so she's sort of
there because she's married to an American. I mean, so
she's English, she's American, but they're kind of just sitting
there being like and feeling it. And then she got
me thinking a little bit about how do we actually
process a whole bunch of stuff and then what happens
when we do feel that that panic. Now, when I
(02:36):
say panic, I think people kind of might think they
know what they mean. But I wanted to talk about,
you know, when you actually think you might be having
like a panic attack. You know, when your chest feels tight,
you might feel a bit hot and sweaty, and it
can be quite crippling. You don't feel like you can
do much or you can't really go far. And so
we talk about people having panic attacks, right, and then
(02:59):
obviously that's kind of a flow and effect from anxiety.
I mean, you can have anxiety, but anxiety is one thing.
The panic attack is the is the actual physical thing,
at least it feels really physical, right, And I thought,
I haven't really ever understood this very well. I mean
I don't know if you know, but I have had
panic attacks in the past.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Goal, Yeah I understand.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
YEA heights has been my main trigger. Yeah. Embarrassingly, had
it happened while visiting the top of the Statue of Liberty.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well that's quite high.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It was very high. And yes, no it's not open,
it's all enclosed. Goodness. But I'm telling you no word
of a lie. As I'm telling you this story. My
palms a getting a bit sweaty. Yeah, right, right now.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So that's a really good example of what we would
expect with panic attacks.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Action. Great, I'm so glad that you'll hear because that's
what I want to talk about. Yeah, so tonight on
the show very much. It's your show and those of
you listening to us tonight, so we want to hear
from you. We thought we'd have a chat about panic
attacks and how does that actually happen? So what is
happening to me at the moment with the fact that
I start talking about a situation that's triggering that memory
(04:12):
and now I'm literally sitting here feeling sweaty palms? What
is that about?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, so first of all, where to start. So almost
everything that we get anxious about is understandable. The problem
isn't that we end up getting frightened or something. The
problem is that the volumes are way too high.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So heights is a really good example because over over
the holiday break, I ended up up the tower. I
feel at the top of the Eiffel Tower.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All right, So yeah, right, it's open.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well, there's a closed level and then there's an open level,
and I have to say I didn't fully enjoy all
of the experience.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's quite nerve racking.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And then we decided to walk the stairs down, which
is open, which was also quite nerve racking. Right now,
I didn't have a panic response, but I was feeling
quite anxious for quite a lot of that. Especially when
you go up and you get it to the outside.
It's caged in, but it's still open ears, so it
feels even more threatening.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
So, the thing is with most things that we tend
to end up feeling high anxiety about is that the
fear makes sense and then it gets amplified. And what
happens is we get very quickly into a spiral, which
we call fear of fear. So what happens with panic
attacks is we have a fear response, we have an
anxiety response, and then we have what we call a
(05:33):
secondary motion where we start to feel anxious and frightened
of feeling that fear because it might feel embarrassing, it
might feel inconvenient, we might think we shouldn't be frightened.
It might be a situation where it's quite hard to
get out of. So if you're halfway up the stairs
at the Statue of Libby, I don't imagine you could
turn around and run back down them very easily.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Not a very very tight little stairs, you know, the
stairs that just basically go up like a spiral.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah yeah, so's slightly claustrophobic as well.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
So then the fear compounds, and then what tends to
happen is is a physiological response kicks in, which is
adrenal cortisol stress response, right, And once that kicks off,
then we get the physiological symptoms. We get the sweaty palms,
we get the racing heart, we get the blood rushing
away from our peripheral hands and toes and feet and
(06:26):
all that stuff, which is a survival instinct. We get
often the tight chest, tight stomach, we get all of that, right,
narrowed vision, we're just focused on what's in front of us,
and we're freaking out now. And now we start to
breathe differently, and then we hype of ventilate, and that
kicks off into more physiological responses. And often what can
happen for people, particularly if they have their first panic attack,
(06:48):
it's quite.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Normal in some ways for.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
People to think they're having a heart attack, and actually
it's not that unusual for people to present an A
and E or turn up in an ambulance thinking they
actually are having a panic attack and it turns out
to be a heart attack.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It turns out to be a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Now that's such an intense response and it's almost traumatizing
in and of itself. And so what can happen is
that once you've had one panic attack, it's really easy
to then actually have another one, unfortunately, because you've triggered
a response which cascades quite quickly. And sometimes people who
have repeated panic attacks, which is what we call panic disorder,
can find even just walking up the stairs and getting
(07:26):
a bit breathless can be enough to trigger a panic
attack in the wrong circumstances, because the physiological responses can
be enough to tip them into that panic response.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Because that would make sense because actually after I had
that experience that I had it happening a lot more
like even just driving over the Auckland Harbor Bridge.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Ah, yeah, that's another common trigger for people.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, it was just it was that height thing again,
And so I think it was that understanding that that
thing in my head, which was that I'm up high,
I'm in this big metallic structure, oh, this feels similar
to when I've had previous experiences and away you went.
And so actually for me it was about unpacking understanding
(08:08):
the fear of the fear, and like you've just explained
to us, why is this happening? And when I could
understand that, I was able to have it not happen
as often. And to be quite honest with you, I
drove over the Harbor Bridge on I've done it several
times this week, but I did it on Saturday, no problem.
But it wasn't like that about I don't know, two
(08:29):
years ago.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Because the really hard thing to sell to people when
they're saying what do I do? And you might recognize this,
the understandable response is I just don't want to feel it,
yeah at all. I want to gone surgically remove this
response from my brain, please doctor. But actually the really
hard thing is we have to unwind that secondary response
and find a way to actually be able to tolerate
(08:50):
the initial anxiety. Because when we can tolerate that anxiety,
it does actually come and go and it might be
possible to do some things in our life that so
you know, you could probably avoid going up the Statue
of Liberty again but you've got to drive over the
Harbor Bridge, right, sure, as you've got to go to
an office that's high up in a building that you know.
We can only structure our life around these anxieties so
(09:12):
much so we do actually get presented with opportunities to
challenge that, but we actually have to feel the anxiety
to find a way through it.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So when people say, oh, you know, I don't like
doing this, it makes me anxious. Yeah, you know, is
that a legit excuse or is it something that when
I say legit, I'm not saying that you don't feel it. Yeah,
I'm saying is it that something that is immovable? Or
can you deal with the anxiety?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, it's another great example actually, because anxiety is just
an human emotion. So we all feel anxious from time
to time. If we define anxiety as feeling fear in
the absence of an acute and immediate threat, So anxiety
is the feeling that happens when we think about something
that is fearful and we have an emotion about the thought.
So you know, I don't want to do this because
(09:55):
I'm feeling anxious. Means I've thought about this thing and
it's caused me to feel fear, and so I'm thinking
I don't want to do it because I'm worried I'm
going to feel that way if I.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Do it right.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Okay, So the trick with anxiety is we always have
to figure out ways to behavior out of it because
it's doing the thing that brings up the anxiety that
is the trick. But we could talk a bit more
in depth tonight about how to actually do that in
some ways that are likely to be successful. But it
comes down to feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
These are text that's just come in colon. It just says, hey, guys,
regarding anxiety, I haven't been into a shop for at
least five years, I can't do stairs, and I have
a fear of heights, dozzingess and falling right.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So I think that sounds like a pretty significant impact.
I mean, I guess my advice would be that, and
I guess I probably should have said this in the
lead into the show. This is incredibly treatable.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Okay, yep, No, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yes, you know, panic disorder, panic attacks, acute anxiety is
not a life sentence at all. Short term relief can
often be through medication, which is dicey because some of
them are addictive, the benzodiazepenesia valley and and so on.
But actually there's lots of really good psychological treatments and
often quite targeted. You don't have to lie on the
couch for ten years. I mean often you know what
we call cognitive behavioral therapy and some other techniques which
(11:10):
you can actually be quite effective in helping people get
alleviation from the symptoms quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, I'm w into counseling, you know, around around this
exact topic. And I don't want to say I'm cured.
But I can drive over the Harbor Bridge and I
can stand in a glass lift and not think that
everything's going to go terrible, terrible for me.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
They're still nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Well, I mean I'm not allowed to do the show otherwise, right, Yeah,
just not scared of heights. Just not scared heights exactly exactly.
Text to here says a panic attack can happen when
having a thirty minute MR earphones with music helps. It's
a true story. That's from Rosy.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I haven't had to have an MR. I'm not looking
forward to the experience because people don't know you've got
to put your head in a tube which is really close,
and it's quite noisy to lie there and often completely still. Yeah,
I don't think that sounds like fun.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Our producer Boris has done a few MRIs, I think,
isn't he You've done a right, Jimmy Boris. I'm just
trying to see if he gives me a nod or something.
He's done about twenty of them. He's telling me, right,
and I mean he twenty but they're not very good. Well,
I don't know. They keep missing, they keep looking for
something and there was there was very little in there,
and they just said, I'll put them in again. Let's
see what happens. Yeah, trouble finding the brainings just told me.
(12:27):
But anyway, we digress. We're going to go to the lines. Now,
let's go to Darren. Darren, good evening to you.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Yeah, how are you?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah? Good, good to hear your voice.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Oh, thank you very much. I'm Sarah for saying drunk
or well, I'm on one medication that makes you see
on drugs.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oh look, I'll tell you what, Darren. It's it's just
all all voices to me, so either way you'd lead.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Now, I'm just I've been in hospital for a long time,
and I looked at my mom and dad for the
rest ten and fifteen years, my father past, where kids here,
And I've looked at my mom for ages and then
I'll come back home and then using my my mate
lands for my award. But they took mom away for dementia.
(13:21):
And there I've got there, I've got my poor home. Yeah,
and we're in the hospital. They couldn't get her out
because because we meet you in so I'm seeing my
home and I don't want to go out. And anxiety
what you wouldn't believe in. It's just horrible, horrible though.
(13:45):
It's just terrible, and I don't know how to fix it.
I don't need to fix it.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Well, look, the good news that Kyle was talking to
us about just when we were talking around the topic Darren,
is that anxiety is treatable. So I think this is
probably a good point to jump on Kyl and say, look,
you know Darren's medication that you're on for anxiety.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
Yeah, I'm on happened disappearing every three days. Okay, I'm
taking every day at the moment because I've got you
always want to talk to me I've got social meigas
want to talk to be I've got rests want to
talk to because we're want to sell a house, and
in this it wasn't taking me.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So it doesn't sound like the medications. Doesn't sound on
the medications necessarily helping very much.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
No, but I didn't realize the show as are there.
I was just listening to the sports and you guys
kept on we are and I don't know what to
do about you know, years old, I'm six foot two
of one hundred and twenty heroes and I'm shots in ox.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I'm not.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
I mean City five operations on me and I'm just oos.
My house is my ward is taking my mother away.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So Darren, you're talking, are you talking to your GP
about it? Obviously, if you're getting prescribed medication, I assume
you are.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
You can't see your GP two weeks afore you can
see your GP.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Sure, I appreciate it may take some time, but there
are other medication options which are going to be potentially
a lot more effective than the tamanzipam that you're taking,
because one of the problems with that is that it
gets less effective over time.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And so it.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Sounds like you're already noticing that if you're having to
take it more frequently than sort of every two or
three days, I've.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Already taken it. I've taken it because on these Morgan
to a room with twenty people who discuss none, you know,
it's just till me. Yeah, it's just I'm very cognisent men.
I was a very confident.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Man.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well look you're still you're still competent. They're in one
hundred percent. You've called us. That's a high level of competency.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah, but it's just a noisy but that no one
takes it just says people don't take any respect for
the sake Blake. I've got two ronles on me and
I'm going to drop with itever I go and they
are Yeah, they just explained all is cracked. Man, I've
got more now see what they're talking about.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, Well, what I hear is that you're an overwhelmed mate.
And what I hear, Darren, is that you're an overwhelming
You've got so much on your plate that you don't
know how to actually get on top of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And so it's really understanding.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Because mums, mums, because me and mum, you know, we
are set this beneficiary obviously, and she's going to be
pitch and some wanty quite well, now take me away,
and they're telling me, I've got to pay the rates.
I'm going to pay this insurance bill. I'm going to
pay this. I'm going to pay that, I'm going to
pay this, are going to pay that? How do you
do that on four hundred bucks a week? Have you incredible?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Have you ever sat down and talked to a counselor
about what's going on at the moment?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Dan, Now what I've always wanted to, But this is
all new to me. If you're a usual station or
just what you just see? I thought, well, was you
see if.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
You can help?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, I'm really glad that you did.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
So.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Have you got a pen and paper handy?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Okay, So I'm going to give you a four digit number.
The number is one seven three seven. Now that might
not sound like a phone number. One seven three seven.
That might not sound like a phone number, but it is.
It's a number that you can call or you can
even text, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.
It's the National Mental Health Help Line Service. And what
(17:30):
they do is, firstly, they have train counselors on the
phone that don't cost your scent. You can have a
yarn with them about what's going on and start to
hopefully develop some short term strategies to help you manage
the overwhelm. But what they can also do is they
can talk to you about what treatment options and plug
you into things that might be available in your local network.
I think the other really important thing is, even though
it might take a couple of weeks, is to make
(17:51):
an appointment with your GP tomorrow morning being Monday, as
soon as you wake up, give them practice nurse or
the receptionist there a call and make a time. Because
there are better medication options that I'd really want you
to talk about that it going to be more effective
over time for the anxiety potentially. The other thing is
GP often have a connection with counselors. They often have
some funding available for sessions. There's lots of different ways
(18:14):
people can access that around the country, depending on where
you are, but the GP is a great place to start.
And I think the hard thing Darren, which I if
you haven't done it already, and I think you kind
of have because of the medication you're on, is actually
to be able to just be really up front with
the GP about what's going on, how much you're struggling,
which I know is hard.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I was, I was in the hospital. I was in
hospital and my mum redly get to the hospital. What
I was in hospital? See was in hospital with me?
Right rough, take me to see what mummy if you day? Yeah,
and you know I've really died and I've really died.
(18:51):
Same mom Cam had well she couldn't get back to
I was hoped. So get I get Harry to see
what mum there and take mom away.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, it's just well of a lot of change in
a short period of time.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Darren.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Just suck state. It's just sack state, my big bastard
of playing sport. You that you can mum.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, but even even tough bustards still need to have
a chat and and and take a bit of time
out for themselves, Darren. And that's the truth of it.
You know, life, Life is going to kick us all
at some point. And tell you what number one Darren.
Everything that I've heard you say tonight though, and the
way that you've talked, especially about how you care about
your man, about your mum. Sorry, you're a good man,
(19:41):
you're a good man who cares and I'm going to
tell you this right now for free. You deserve to
be able to have some support and some help with
everything you're going through. You are one hundred percent worthy
of that, Darren.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll can't give, well give.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Very cool.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
They look just told.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, we'll just start start by, start by just entertaining
this idea that Kyle's given to you, and and give
one seven three seven a call. Yep, yep, give give
them a call first, because they're really good. They're really
good at what they do. We get a lot of
feedback here on the show that people who use use
that and have a chat to them. And now you
(20:31):
know where we are. We're on every week on Sunday
from eleven pm to one am. So you can even
give us a call back next week, Daryland. Let us
know how you're getting on. We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Thank you very much. It's just it's just stress. It's
just yeah, I mean someone that listens, you know, and
no one else. Yeah, my friends are given up on me.
They just get up sick of hearing it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well, look, all I'll say is that you are going
through a stressful time. That everything that you've talked about yet,
that's that is definitely in the signposted area of extremely stressful. Okay,
so there's nothing are normal about that. But what I
need you to know is that we would love to
hear from you again, but also too, there is help available,
(21:17):
People do care and you're not alone.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
All right, Darren, Hey, look all the best. I hope
the week gets better for you and look forward to
hearing from you again.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
All right, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Cheers, Darren. No, I appreciate you much appreciate you picking
up the phone and calling because actually, with everything that
you've got going on there, and I could imagine that
maybe giving us a call might not be high on
the priority list, but you did it all the same.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, And you know what, I think, if I had
all of that going on, I'd be feeling pretty anxious too.
So overwhelmed kicks off anxiety. It's really normal, Bronnie. Good
evening to.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
You, evening.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
How are we doing?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Great, great to hear you, Bronnie.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
It's been a while.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, it's we had a couple of people ask after
you actually, and we just said Bronnie. I am sure
she's busy doing something, most likely probably helping somebody else
if we know you.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Yeah, probably yeah, but yeah, also trying to get my
own self to give it I'd like to hear it.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
So so naturally with me with CPTSD, naturally, it's extremely Yeah,
it's extremely anxiety and trying to control it and trying
to overcome it really as much as you can. I've
(22:41):
had both. I mean, naturally, I've had the anxiety, but
I've had the panic attacks that are really crippling. Sometimes
sometimes it is unprepared, you're not or actually all I mean,
especially a panic attack. I mean like I've gone into
a super the supermarket, and I thought I was going
(23:03):
to be fine, went in, started in and you know,
for some reason, I got a jolt and that was it,
and it set me off majorly to the point where
I had to get myself out, you know, like fight
flight syndrome. So I mean, yeah, I mean the panic
(23:29):
attacks for a horrendous I had to luckily get to
my car. I mean I had to just leave the trolley.
I had to you know, get everything together before I
ended up collapsing and all of that because my legs
just went to jelly, and I mean for a while
(23:51):
I had to sort of yeah, I mean I went
into kind of a hyperventilating but I had to kind
of like get back to my car, sit in my
car and just till I calm myself down, because my
car was my security.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
What did you do in that my to calm yourself down, Bronnie,
What tends to work for you in those moments?
Speaker 6 (24:13):
Well, just knowing that I was in my car with
my security rather than being out and in front of
everybody or you know, embarrassing myself something I just knew
I had to get out, but to actually try and
overcome it, I ended up having like a bracelet, you know.
(24:34):
I ended up getting my mind and trying to slowly
just wear something and keep looking at that rather than
everything around, or just ended up having to keep my
brain fixed on I'm going for a reason, you know,
for making.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
That an importance.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
But it took a while for me to go in.
But crowds or anything like that can create a real
anxious I mean, even for me, it's been out in
the community has been huge because naturally I have a
fear of and being you know, attacked, or things like
(25:17):
that I have a worry about. But as long as
I'm being my car or I've got some sort of
reason why I'm going out, because before I wouldn't even
get out of my house.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
So if you can get your brain into sort of
going out on a mission or completing a task that
can be healthy a helpful too, way.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Absolutely absolutely you have a reason to go out in
that can. I mean for me, I like being in
my car driving scenery animals, but also my music, you know,
having the music.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
On one car.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
But yeah, I mean there are I mean, as I say,
I'm an extreme when it comes to anxiety, Like you
said about heights and that that that's horrific for me too.
But I mean it's like, I mean, just that bridge
that collapsed, because that was in our area, you know,
was a was the flooding and everything. Well while I
(26:19):
was kind of I mean, I just went over that
bridge that night before it collapsed, So I mean that
horrendously was horrific for me to just go and being
redirected to a different route that I'm used to from
going from NEWTONUI to Perongia and that instead of going
(26:45):
through to Takara to car or you know, through oatra
Hong kind of thing to tell or Muto was horrendous,
and all the bridges kind of gave me a real
anxiety just to get through there, going over the bridges again,
because that would.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Make sense considering what we've been talking about, you know
that with the fear, you know how year is at
the heart of so much of the anxieties, right, so
that that would be absolutely perfect conditions for anxiety to thrive.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:17):
Yeah, well, I mean I mean for a what, yes,
but I mean you can get to the extent where
you just want to stay home, you know, you don't
want to go out, you don't want to go anywhere.
If you get that to that extent, you have that
fear of it's really hard to try and get yourself
(27:38):
out of that, out of that mental state, you know,
just to be able to feel safe again.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Absolutely. Yeah. And then the next thing too is if
you end up staying at home and kind of hiding
yourself away from the world Krle, I mean that can
then lead into depression.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah. Well, I mean actually it raises a really important
point which is actually often for a lot of people.
And I really appreciate Bronnie bringing us to our attention
is that avoidance is actually the problem, not the anxiety.
So when we get to the point where actually we've
started avoiding the things that cause us to feel anxiety,
because as we talked about at the top of the show,
anxiety triggers anxiety, fear triggers fear, and we get into
(28:18):
that spiral of escalating anxiety, then all we need is
what we call a trigger. Now, people talk about triggers
all the time. Now, trigger isn't just something that makes
you feel a bit upset.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
A trigger is.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Something that actually cascades into a series of distressing responses,
which means that just in air quotes I'm doing on radio,
just to driving over a bridge can be enough to
trigger the anxiety, which then tips us into the fear
of fear, or you know, climbing up somewhere high can
tip us into that fear of fear. And if we
(28:48):
then solve that problem by avoiding anything that we think
will make us feel that way, then what tends to
happen over time, and it can often happen quite quickly
for people when they're really acutely in this is the
bubble that is their world shrinks really fast and before
you know it, you can't even get to the better box. Now,
I'm not catastrophizing. This is the way anxiety works. This
is how people get to the point where actually they
(29:10):
need that really acute, urgent help because actually our world
can get very small, very quickly.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It can. Yeah, I mean, look, I'll tell them Bronnie,
thank you so much for your court.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Thank you, but I'd love to hear from you again.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
There's a text in here from Chris and she said, Hi, guys,
I just want to reach out and give Darren a
huge hug. He deserves some TLC. What a kind man,
caring so lovingly for his mum. I would be so
very proud to have you as my son. Don't be
hard on yourself, Darren, You're awesome. I hope you get
the help you deserve. And that's from Chris. We agree. Yeah.
(29:45):
Nice text message here says three years ago I was
diagnosed with complex PTSD after a hugely traumatic event. I
was struggling with anxiety and frequent panic attacks, particularly around
leaving my home for any reason. I spent months in therapy.
Deep brain reorientation helped me immensely. I still have my
(30:06):
days where I struggle, but the techn my therapist went
over with me definitely helped deep brain deep brain reorientation.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, I'm not particular. I'm not familiar with that to therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, i'll tell you what. We'll go back to the
calls right now, but at the start of New Sport
and after I've done New Sport and Weather in the
next hour, I want to get you back just to
talk to us about some strategies and practical stuff that
people can do. So if there's anyone out there listening tonight,
being like, I'd love the call, guys, but I'm just
being a little bit anxious about having that chat. Don't
you worry. We got you covered. We'll do it in
(30:40):
text to here. Actually, he says, hey, guys, good show.
I've got social anxiety duty years of bullying at school, honestly,
and then goes on to say, honestly, this country sucks
a mental health it makes me so angry. The culture
is far and then that just finishes. Yeah, right, yeah,
I might read that out it's too late at night.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Oh it's really thank you for raising that, because I mean,
it's kind of probably a whole other show in itself,
but bullying and social anxiety. I mean, there's a really
clear link there, and it's kind of obvious that you
don't need to be sigmud Freud to figure that out, right,
It's obvious if people, of course you harm scared of people,
social anxiety is you know. The thing is, we've got
(31:22):
all these sort of different segment different categories of anxiety disorders,
but this huge overlaps and actually one of the triggers
for a lot of people for panic attacks a social situations.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So it's interesting, isn't it, because you know, like we're
talking about that, but they're obviously you need talk about
school bullying, but like workplace bullying as well, right, Yeah,
which we know to be absolutely rife the number of
people I talk to, you know, and I probably would
have at least a conversation every week where people are
having just eight terrorrible time at work, and it's just
(31:56):
this culture of you know, people not knowing where they
stand leaving, you know, just sort of you know, like
strange intimidations and you know, who's wholar the popular person
and who's not, who's in with the management, who's not,
how things might be perceived, and it goes round and
round and round and round and it ends up literally
(32:19):
driving people nuts, causing a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Well, it's been forty to fifty hours a week at work, right,
it's a big part of anyone's life.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, I mean, I work with people, but I don't
have to go to an office every day for my work.
And I've got to be honest, I have noticed that
that's kind of how my life has been to the
last five years. And I've noticed the absence of having
to actually physically be around people like you know that
ready get to choose, but the absence of it is
(32:49):
a real privilege. It's it's incredible because that's the point,
right when you're going around with people that you don't
get to choose how they are. I mean, this is
not of your making. But we all need a job. Yeah,
and so a lot of the times, you know, and
I think sometimes too, you know, especially when you go
into a new workplace, you don't necessarily know what you
getting yourself into straight away. No, you don't.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
And I mean often just because someone has been there
long enough or has the skills to be able to
be promoted, doesn't necessarily mean they have the soft skills either.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Very very true. Yeah, yeah, what is it? Yeah? I
saw a movie about this, actually great movie actually with
Channing Tatum called roof Man. Ah yeah, and it was
about a guy who who actually he broke into places
through the roof but basically bash a hole and did
this and ended up living in a toy store for
the better part of a year in the state. It's
(33:44):
based on a true story, right, But he ended up
watching for his entertainment. He set up like baby monitor
cameras around the store and he put them like in
the manager's office and then basically like watched this manager
and the manager's really horrible. But it ended up becoming
like his pseudo reality TV show, right. And anyway, you know,
(34:04):
people come in and ask for time off on their
schedules because you know, they had up and to do
with the kids or whatever, and he says, oh, that's
a personal issue and that's not a professional issue. So look,
I'm sorry, but no, I need you. I need you here.
I don't care if it's your kid's birthday whatever. Anyway,
at night, he figured out how to get into the
computer you go and change the rosters. Nice people could vigilante. Yeah,
(34:26):
it was like a vigilante like like like a workplace
for Gilante. And I'm like, I feel like we all
need that somewhere in our life, don't we. Just someone
who just goes into angel just goes and does it. Anyway,
let's go back to the lines, Paul, good morning to you.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Good morning. I didn't realize it, but I had quite
a stressful job working, you know, doing things that not
a lot of people would want to have to do.
And and then one day, just out of the blue,
I was driving from all come back to my house
(35:01):
and room where and I didn't know where I was,
I didn't know who I was, didn't know I didn't
know any like, I sort of lost myself. And I
was fortunate enough to see one of the people that
you sometimes have on your show, and she was able
to send me straight away and help me through that.
(35:24):
And and and then and then came COVID and a
good friend of mine set up on TV and said
that if you're not at home, get home, get home
right now. And my daughter and my ex wife were
both over seized at the time, and that whole complex
(35:47):
post stress disorder, it just came. It just came back
and helped me like a like a breakfort, but he
fell out of the sky, you know. I just and
then after thinking about my daughter and ex wife, I
started thinking about all the other responsibilities are got to
(36:08):
deal with, and it sort of all came back to me,
you know. I remember it was about March to twenty third.
I think I don't remember the year, but oh god,
it was frightening and I ended up passing out. And
as you say, it wasn't hard to do. It was
just it was just still too much. Now, this couldn't code.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
And you're selling not alone. And as I'm sure you
well know that COVID really tipped a lot of people
back into their experiences of anxiety for lots of different reasons.
But did did your ex wife and daughter make it home?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
I got them home on the next flide unditionally, and
that they got home, and and all the other matters
that we had to deal with overseas at the time.
Once I started to put them into perspective, they really
didn't mean much, right, And so I was able to
cope and didn't drop back into the post traumatic stress
(37:14):
disorder that that I'd previously had through my role in
the in the defense force. And that and I and
I was lucky enough that it just didn't trip me
back into that. I just just got on with the
task at hand and dealt with what had to be
dealt with. But just it was just such an overwhelming
(37:38):
event at the time that you just people don't understand that. Well,
I just I just lost consciousness, you know, it just
passed out. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Well, and without going into any of the details, because
obviously you don't want to, and that's absolutely fair enough.
But you know, people who have served in all sorts
of situations with defense forces often find that it can
be quite some time after when the trauma actually hits them.
And it sounds like I hit you really hard, But
I'm glad you got the help at the time too.
It sounds like you access the right kind of help
(38:13):
when it did happen.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Well, she was brilliant, and you know I saw her
about ten times to come right. Doctor who's also a
good fellow of nine for a long time. He gave
me some guy in the pans, which I didn't I
didn't really need to take too much of it. I
took it for a few days, and I think I
(38:37):
ended up checking it away in the end because I
didn't need it. But you know, it was there and
available if I needed it, but I didn't really sort
of need it after about two days when I sort
of started to realize that they're a bigger, bigger fish
to fight at the.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Moment, absolutely absolutely no, Paul, thank you so much for
sharing that experience with us. That's it for this episode
of The Nutters Club. Thanks to everyone who called and texted,
and thanks to the the extremely valuable insight of psychotherapist
Carl McDonald. If you like what you heard and think
(39:14):
it might help someone out there, then please share this
episode on your own channels with family and friends, and
if you ever want to be part of the show,
give us a call or a text when we broadcast
live on Newstalk SEIDB eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand
standard time. Check out newstalkzb dot co dot MZ for
local frequencies or a link to the live stream. A
(39:35):
big thanks to New Zealand on Air for their ongoing
support and making the show. Take care and always remember
that the world is a better place with you and
it life well, it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
For more from Newstalk ZEDB, listen live on air or online,
and keep our shows with you wherever you go with
our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Greetings and welcome. I'm Hamish Williams and you're listening to
the podcast version of The Nutter's Club, a radio show
about mental health broadcast weekly on News Talks ZEDB. Each
week we talk with people about mental health experiences in
the hope that it might help you with your own.
The show is broadcast live on Sunday nights on News
(00:40):
Talk s ed B right across New Zealand and around
the world. On this week's show, we took a look
at how anxiety can occur and how it can escalate
into panic attacks as well as depression. Psychotherapist Carl MacDonald
guided our callers through their own experiences for what is
a highly treatable mental health condition. Let us know what
(01:03):
you think, as well as what you learn from our
chat on any of our social media platforms. Just search
for the Nutters Club ends it and come and join
over one hundred and forty one thousand fellow Nutters. Let's
get into this week's episode. I can tell you right now,
I've been talking with family and friends all over the
country all over the world, as I sort of introduced
(01:25):
the show like that, that's also sometimes what I do.
And actually this morning I was on the phone to
family in Boston. Oh yeah, Boston, Uisay, So we've got
family there. They're not American, they're originally from the UK,
but they live and live and work in Boston and
they a lovely part of them American. Yeah, you know,
(01:46):
I've actually been visited them, A very civilized part of
the world. Yes, Boston. Anyway, so we was talking to
them and one of one of our my wife's cousins,
she's got a young family, and she was just saying, oh,
you know, she was just saying about her mum was
saying anyway, just sort of saying, oh, look, you know
how panicked she is feeling about things. Obviously with all
(02:10):
of the global goings ons.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
America is at war apparently.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well that's it, you know, And so she's sort of
there because she's married to an American. I mean, so
she's English, she's American, but they're kind of just sitting
there being like and feeling it. And then she got
me thinking a little bit about how do we actually
process a whole bunch of stuff and then what happens
when we do feel that that panic. Now, when I
(02:36):
say panic, I think people kind of might think they
know what they mean. But I wanted to talk about,
you know, when you actually think you might be having
like a panic attack. You know, when your chest feels tight,
you might feel a bit hot and sweaty, and it
can be quite crippling. You don't feel like you can
do much or you can't really go far. And so
we talk about people having panic attacks, right, and then
(02:59):
obviously that's kind of a flow and effect from anxiety.
I mean, you can have anxiety, but anxiety is one thing.
The panic attack is the is the actual physical thing,
at least it feels really physical, right, And I thought,
I haven't really ever understood this very well. I mean
I don't know if you know, but I have had
panic attacks in the past.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Goal, Yeah I understand.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
YEA heights has been my main trigger. Yeah. Embarrassingly, had
it happened while visiting the top of the Statue of Liberty.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well that's quite high.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It was very high. And yes, no it's not open,
it's all enclosed. Goodness. But I'm telling you no word
of a lie. As I'm telling you this story. My
palms a getting a bit sweaty. Yeah, right, right now.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So that's a really good example of what we would
expect with panic attacks.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Action. Great, I'm so glad that you'll hear because that's
what I want to talk about. Yeah, so tonight on
the show very much. It's your show and those of
you listening to us tonight, so we want to hear
from you. We thought we'd have a chat about panic
attacks and how does that actually happen? So what is
happening to me at the moment with the fact that
I start talking about a situation that's triggering that memory
(04:12):
and now I'm literally sitting here feeling sweaty palms? What
is that about?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, so first of all, where to start. So almost
everything that we get anxious about is understandable. The problem
isn't that we end up getting frightened or something. The
problem is that the volumes are way too high.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So heights is a really good example because over over
the holiday break, I ended up up the tower. I
feel at the top of the Eiffel Tower.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All right, So yeah, right, it's open.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well, there's a closed level and then there's an open level,
and I have to say I didn't fully enjoy all
of the experience.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's quite nerve racking.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And then we decided to walk the stairs down, which
is open, which was also quite nerve racking. Right now,
I didn't have a panic response, but I was feeling
quite anxious for quite a lot of that. Especially when
you go up and you get it to the outside.
It's caged in, but it's still open ears, so it
feels even more threatening.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
So, the thing is with most things that we tend
to end up feeling high anxiety about is that the
fear makes sense and then it gets amplified. And what
happens is we get very quickly into a spiral, which
we call fear of fear. So what happens with panic
attacks is we have a fear response, we have an
anxiety response, and then we have what we call a
(05:33):
secondary motion where we start to feel anxious and frightened
of feeling that fear because it might feel embarrassing, it
might feel inconvenient, we might think we shouldn't be frightened.
It might be a situation where it's quite hard to
get out of. So if you're halfway up the stairs
at the Statue of Libby, I don't imagine you could
turn around and run back down them very easily.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Not a very very tight little stairs, you know, the
stairs that just basically go up like a spiral.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah yeah, so's slightly claustrophobic as well.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
So then the fear compounds, and then what tends to
happen is is a physiological response kicks in, which is
adrenal cortisol stress response, right, And once that kicks off,
then we get the physiological symptoms. We get the sweaty palms,
we get the racing heart, we get the blood rushing
away from our peripheral hands and toes and feet and
(06:26):
all that stuff, which is a survival instinct. We get
often the tight chest, tight stomach, we get all of that, right,
narrowed vision, we're just focused on what's in front of us,
and we're freaking out now. And now we start to
breathe differently, and then we hype of ventilate, and that
kicks off into more physiological responses. And often what can
happen for people, particularly if they have their first panic attack,
(06:48):
it's quite.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Normal in some ways for.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
People to think they're having a heart attack, and actually
it's not that unusual for people to present an A
and E or turn up in an ambulance thinking they
actually are having a panic attack and it turns out
to be a heart attack.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It turns out to be a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Now that's such an intense response and it's almost traumatizing
in and of itself. And so what can happen is
that once you've had one panic attack, it's really easy
to then actually have another one, unfortunately, because you've triggered
a response which cascades quite quickly. And sometimes people who
have repeated panic attacks, which is what we call panic disorder,
can find even just walking up the stairs and getting
(07:26):
a bit breathless can be enough to trigger a panic
attack in the wrong circumstances, because the physiological responses can
be enough to tip them into that panic response.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Because that would make sense because actually after I had
that experience that I had it happening a lot more
like even just driving over the Auckland Harbor Bridge.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Ah, yeah, that's another common trigger for people.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, it was just it was that height thing again,
And so I think it was that understanding that that
thing in my head, which was that I'm up high,
I'm in this big metallic structure, oh, this feels similar
to when I've had previous experiences and away you went.
And so actually for me it was about unpacking understanding
(08:08):
the fear of the fear, and like you've just explained
to us, why is this happening? And when I could
understand that, I was able to have it not happen
as often. And to be quite honest with you, I
drove over the Harbor Bridge on I've done it several
times this week, but I did it on Saturday, no problem.
But it wasn't like that about I don't know, two
(08:29):
years ago.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Because the really hard thing to sell to people when
they're saying what do I do? And you might recognize this,
the understandable response is I just don't want to feel it,
yeah at all. I want to gone surgically remove this
response from my brain, please doctor. But actually the really
hard thing is we have to unwind that secondary response
and find a way to actually be able to tolerate
(08:50):
the initial anxiety. Because when we can tolerate that anxiety,
it does actually come and go and it might be
possible to do some things in our life that so
you know, you could probably avoid going up the Statue
of Liberty again but you've got to drive over the
Harbor Bridge, right, sure, as you've got to go to
an office that's high up in a building that you know.
We can only structure our life around these anxieties so
(09:12):
much so we do actually get presented with opportunities to
challenge that, but we actually have to feel the anxiety
to find a way through it.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So when people say, oh, you know, I don't like
doing this, it makes me anxious. Yeah, you know, is
that a legit excuse or is it something that when
I say legit, I'm not saying that you don't feel it. Yeah,
I'm saying is it that something that is immovable? Or
can you deal with the anxiety?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, it's another great example actually, because anxiety is just
an human emotion. So we all feel anxious from time
to time. If we define anxiety as feeling fear in
the absence of an acute and immediate threat, So anxiety
is the feeling that happens when we think about something
that is fearful and we have an emotion about the thought.
So you know, I don't want to do this because
(09:55):
I'm feeling anxious. Means I've thought about this thing and
it's caused me to feel fear, and so I'm thinking
I don't want to do it because I'm worried I'm
going to feel that way if I.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Do it right.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Okay, So the trick with anxiety is we always have
to figure out ways to behavior out of it because
it's doing the thing that brings up the anxiety that
is the trick. But we could talk a bit more
in depth tonight about how to actually do that in
some ways that are likely to be successful. But it
comes down to feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
These are text that's just come in colon. It just says, hey, guys,
regarding anxiety, I haven't been into a shop for at
least five years, I can't do stairs, and I have
a fear of heights, dozzingess and falling right.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So I think that sounds like a pretty significant impact.
I mean, I guess my advice would be that, and
I guess I probably should have said this in the
lead into the show. This is incredibly treatable.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Okay, yep, No, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yes, you know, panic disorder, panic attacks, acute anxiety is
not a life sentence at all. Short term relief can
often be through medication, which is dicey because some of
them are addictive, the benzodiazepenesia valley and and so on.
But actually there's lots of really good psychological treatments and
often quite targeted. You don't have to lie on the
couch for ten years. I mean often you know what
we call cognitive behavioral therapy and some other techniques which
(11:10):
you can actually be quite effective in helping people get
alleviation from the symptoms quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, I'm w into counseling, you know, around around this
exact topic. And I don't want to say I'm cured.
But I can drive over the Harbor Bridge and I
can stand in a glass lift and not think that
everything's going to go terrible, terrible for me.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
They're still nuts.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Well, I mean I'm not allowed to do the show otherwise, right, Yeah,
just not scared of heights. Just not scared heights exactly exactly.
Text to here says a panic attack can happen when
having a thirty minute MR earphones with music helps. It's
a true story. That's from Rosy.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I haven't had to have an MR. I'm not looking
forward to the experience because people don't know you've got
to put your head in a tube which is really close,
and it's quite noisy to lie there and often completely still. Yeah,
I don't think that sounds like fun.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Our producer Boris has done a few MRIs, I think,
isn't he You've done a right, Jimmy Boris. I'm just
trying to see if he gives me a nod or something.
He's done about twenty of them. He's telling me, right,
and I mean he twenty but they're not very good. Well,
I don't know. They keep missing, they keep looking for
something and there was there was very little in there,
and they just said, I'll put them in again. Let's
see what happens. Yeah, trouble finding the brainings just told me.
(12:27):
But anyway, we digress. We're going to go to the lines. Now,
let's go to Darren. Darren, good evening to you.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Yeah, how are you?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah? Good, good to hear your voice.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Oh, thank you very much. I'm Sarah for saying drunk
or well, I'm on one medication that makes you see
on drugs.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oh look, I'll tell you what, Darren. It's it's just
all all voices to me, so either way you'd lead.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Now, I'm just I've been in hospital for a long time,
and I looked at my mom and dad for the
rest ten and fifteen years, my father past, where kids here,
And I've looked at my mom for ages and then
I'll come back home and then using my my mate
lands for my award. But they took mom away for dementia.
(13:21):
And there I've got there, I've got my poor home. Yeah,
and we're in the hospital. They couldn't get her out
because because we meet you in so I'm seeing my
home and I don't want to go out. And anxiety
what you wouldn't believe in. It's just horrible, horrible though.
(13:45):
It's just terrible, and I don't know how to fix it.
I don't need to fix it.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Well, look, the good news that Kyle was talking to
us about just when we were talking around the topic Darren,
is that anxiety is treatable. So I think this is
probably a good point to jump on Kyl and say, look,
you know Darren's medication that you're on for anxiety.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
Yeah, I'm on happened disappearing every three days. Okay, I'm
taking every day at the moment because I've got you
always want to talk to me I've got social meigas
want to talk to be I've got rests want to
talk to because we're want to sell a house, and
in this it wasn't taking me.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So it doesn't sound like the medications. Doesn't sound on
the medications necessarily helping very much.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
No, but I didn't realize the show as are there.
I was just listening to the sports and you guys
kept on we are and I don't know what to
do about you know, years old, I'm six foot two
of one hundred and twenty heroes and I'm shots in ox.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I'm not.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
I mean City five operations on me and I'm just oos.
My house is my ward is taking my mother away.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So Darren, you're talking, are you talking to your GP
about it? Obviously, if you're getting prescribed medication, I assume
you are.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
You can't see your GP two weeks afore you can
see your GP.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Sure, I appreciate it may take some time, but there
are other medication options which are going to be potentially
a lot more effective than the tamanzipam that you're taking,
because one of the problems with that is that it
gets less effective over time.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And so it.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Sounds like you're already noticing that if you're having to
take it more frequently than sort of every two or
three days, I've.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Already taken it. I've taken it because on these Morgan
to a room with twenty people who discuss none, you know,
it's just till me. Yeah, it's just I'm very cognisent men.
I was a very confident.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Man.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well look you're still you're still competent. They're in one
hundred percent. You've called us. That's a high level of competency.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah, but it's just a noisy but that no one
takes it just says people don't take any respect for
the sake Blake. I've got two ronles on me and
I'm going to drop with itever I go and they
are Yeah, they just explained all is cracked. Man, I've
got more now see what they're talking about.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, Well, what I hear is that you're an overwhelmed mate.
And what I hear, Darren, is that you're an overwhelming
You've got so much on your plate that you don't
know how to actually get on top of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And so it's really understanding.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Because mums, mums, because me and mum, you know, we
are set this beneficiary obviously, and she's going to be
pitch and some wanty quite well, now take me away,
and they're telling me, I've got to pay the rates.
I'm going to pay this insurance bill. I'm going to
pay this. I'm going to pay that, I'm going to
pay this, are going to pay that? How do you
do that on four hundred bucks a week? Have you incredible?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Have you ever sat down and talked to a counselor
about what's going on at the moment?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Dan, Now what I've always wanted to, But this is
all new to me. If you're a usual station or
just what you just see? I thought, well, was you
see if.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
You can help?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, I'm really glad that you did.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
So.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Have you got a pen and paper handy?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Okay, So I'm going to give you a four digit number.
The number is one seven three seven. Now that might
not sound like a phone number. One seven three seven.
That might not sound like a phone number, but it is.
It's a number that you can call or you can
even text, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.
It's the National Mental Health Help Line Service. And what
(17:30):
they do is, firstly, they have train counselors on the
phone that don't cost your scent. You can have a
yarn with them about what's going on and start to
hopefully develop some short term strategies to help you manage
the overwhelm. But what they can also do is they
can talk to you about what treatment options and plug
you into things that might be available in your local network.
I think the other really important thing is, even though
it might take a couple of weeks, is to make
(17:51):
an appointment with your GP tomorrow morning being Monday, as
soon as you wake up, give them practice nurse or
the receptionist there a call and make a time. Because
there are better medication options that I'd really want you
to talk about that it going to be more effective
over time for the anxiety potentially. The other thing is
GP often have a connection with counselors. They often have
some funding available for sessions. There's lots of different ways
(18:14):
people can access that around the country, depending on where
you are, but the GP is a great place to start.
And I think the hard thing Darren, which I if
you haven't done it already, and I think you kind
of have because of the medication you're on, is actually
to be able to just be really up front with
the GP about what's going on, how much you're struggling,
which I know is hard.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
I was, I was in the hospital. I was in
hospital and my mum redly get to the hospital. What
I was in hospital? See was in hospital with me?
Right rough, take me to see what mummy if you day? Yeah,
and you know I've really died and I've really died.
(18:51):
Same mom Cam had well she couldn't get back to
I was hoped. So get I get Harry to see
what mum there and take mom away.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, it's just well of a lot of change in
a short period of time.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Darren.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Just suck state. It's just sack state, my big bastard
of playing sport. You that you can mum.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, but even even tough bustards still need to have
a chat and and and take a bit of time
out for themselves, Darren. And that's the truth of it.
You know, life, Life is going to kick us all
at some point. And tell you what number one Darren.
Everything that I've heard you say tonight though, and the
way that you've talked, especially about how you care about
your man, about your mum. Sorry, you're a good man,
(19:41):
you're a good man who cares and I'm going to
tell you this right now for free. You deserve to
be able to have some support and some help with
everything you're going through. You are one hundred percent worthy
of that, Darren.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll can't give, well give.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Very cool.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
They look just told.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, we'll just start start by, start by just entertaining
this idea that Kyle's given to you, and and give
one seven three seven a call. Yep, yep, give give
them a call first, because they're really good. They're really
good at what they do. We get a lot of
feedback here on the show that people who use use
that and have a chat to them. And now you
(20:31):
know where we are. We're on every week on Sunday
from eleven pm to one am. So you can even
give us a call back next week, Daryland. Let us
know how you're getting on. We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Thank you very much. It's just it's just stress. It's
just yeah, I mean someone that listens, you know, and
no one else. Yeah, my friends are given up on me.
They just get up sick of hearing it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well, look, all I'll say is that you are going
through a stressful time. That everything that you've talked about yet,
that's that is definitely in the signposted area of extremely stressful. Okay,
so there's nothing are normal about that. But what I
need you to know is that we would love to
hear from you again, but also too, there is help available,
(21:17):
People do care and you're not alone.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
All right, Darren, Hey, look all the best. I hope
the week gets better for you and look forward to
hearing from you again.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
All right, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Cheers, Darren. No, I appreciate you much appreciate you picking
up the phone and calling because actually, with everything that
you've got going on there, and I could imagine that
maybe giving us a call might not be high on
the priority list, but you did it all the same.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, And you know what, I think, if I had
all of that going on, I'd be feeling pretty anxious too.
So overwhelmed kicks off anxiety. It's really normal, Bronnie. Good
evening to.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
You, evening.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
How are we doing?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Great, great to hear you, Bronnie.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
It's been a while.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, it's we had a couple of people ask after
you actually, and we just said Bronnie. I am sure
she's busy doing something, most likely probably helping somebody else
if we know you.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Yeah, probably yeah, but yeah, also trying to get my
own self to give it I'd like to hear it.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
So so naturally with me with CPTSD, naturally, it's extremely Yeah,
it's extremely anxiety and trying to control it and trying
to overcome it really as much as you can. I've
(22:41):
had both. I mean, naturally, I've had the anxiety, but
I've had the panic attacks that are really crippling. Sometimes
sometimes it is unprepared, you're not or actually all I mean,
especially a panic attack. I mean like I've gone into
a super the supermarket, and I thought I was going
(23:03):
to be fine, went in, started in and you know,
for some reason, I got a jolt and that was it,
and it set me off majorly to the point where
I had to get myself out, you know, like fight
flight syndrome. So I mean, yeah, I mean the panic
(23:29):
attacks for a horrendous I had to luckily get to
my car. I mean I had to just leave the trolley.
I had to you know, get everything together before I
ended up collapsing and all of that because my legs
just went to jelly, and I mean for a while
(23:51):
I had to sort of yeah, I mean I went
into kind of a hyperventilating but I had to kind
of like get back to my car, sit in my
car and just till I calm myself down, because my
car was my security.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
What did you do in that my to calm yourself down, Bronnie,
What tends to work for you in those moments?
Speaker 6 (24:13):
Well, just knowing that I was in my car with
my security rather than being out and in front of
everybody or you know, embarrassing myself something I just knew
I had to get out, but to actually try and
overcome it, I ended up having like a bracelet, you know.
(24:34):
I ended up getting my mind and trying to slowly
just wear something and keep looking at that rather than
everything around, or just ended up having to keep my
brain fixed on I'm going for a reason, you know,
for making.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
That an importance.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
But it took a while for me to go in.
But crowds or anything like that can create a real
anxious I mean, even for me, it's been out in
the community has been huge because naturally I have a
fear of and being you know, attacked, or things like
(25:17):
that I have a worry about. But as long as
I'm being my car or I've got some sort of
reason why I'm going out, because before I wouldn't even
get out of my house.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
So if you can get your brain into sort of
going out on a mission or completing a task that
can be healthy a helpful too, way.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Absolutely absolutely you have a reason to go out in
that can. I mean for me, I like being in
my car driving scenery animals, but also my music, you know,
having the music.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
On one car.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
But yeah, I mean there are I mean, as I say,
I'm an extreme when it comes to anxiety, Like you
said about heights and that that that's horrific for me too.
But I mean it's like, I mean, just that bridge
that collapsed, because that was in our area, you know,
was a was the flooding and everything. Well while I
(26:19):
was kind of I mean, I just went over that
bridge that night before it collapsed, So I mean that
horrendously was horrific for me to just go and being
redirected to a different route that I'm used to from
going from NEWTONUI to Perongia and that instead of going
(26:45):
through to Takara to car or you know, through oatra
Hong kind of thing to tell or Muto was horrendous,
and all the bridges kind of gave me a real
anxiety just to get through there, going over the bridges again,
because that would.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Make sense considering what we've been talking about, you know
that with the fear, you know how year is at
the heart of so much of the anxieties, right, so
that that would be absolutely perfect conditions for anxiety to thrive.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:17):
Yeah, well, I mean I mean for a what, yes,
but I mean you can get to the extent where
you just want to stay home, you know, you don't
want to go out, you don't want to go anywhere.
If you get that to that extent, you have that
fear of it's really hard to try and get yourself
(27:38):
out of that, out of that mental state, you know,
just to be able to feel safe again.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Absolutely. Yeah. And then the next thing too is if
you end up staying at home and kind of hiding
yourself away from the world Krle, I mean that can
then lead into depression.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah. Well, I mean actually it raises a really important
point which is actually often for a lot of people.
And I really appreciate Bronnie bringing us to our attention
is that avoidance is actually the problem, not the anxiety.
So when we get to the point where actually we've
started avoiding the things that cause us to feel anxiety,
because as we talked about at the top of the show,
anxiety triggers anxiety, fear triggers fear, and we get into
(28:18):
that spiral of escalating anxiety, then all we need is
what we call a trigger. Now, people talk about triggers
all the time. Now, trigger isn't just something that makes
you feel a bit upset.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
A trigger is.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Something that actually cascades into a series of distressing responses,
which means that just in air quotes I'm doing on radio,
just to driving over a bridge can be enough to
trigger the anxiety, which then tips us into the fear
of fear, or you know, climbing up somewhere high can
tip us into that fear of fear. And if we
(28:48):
then solve that problem by avoiding anything that we think
will make us feel that way, then what tends to
happen over time, and it can often happen quite quickly
for people when they're really acutely in this is the
bubble that is their world shrinks really fast and before
you know it, you can't even get to the better box. Now,
I'm not catastrophizing. This is the way anxiety works. This
is how people get to the point where actually they
(29:10):
need that really acute, urgent help because actually our world
can get very small, very quickly.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It can. Yeah, I mean, look, I'll tell them Bronnie,
thank you so much for your court.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Thank you, but I'd love to hear from you again.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
There's a text in here from Chris and she said, Hi, guys,
I just want to reach out and give Darren a
huge hug. He deserves some TLC. What a kind man,
caring so lovingly for his mum. I would be so
very proud to have you as my son. Don't be
hard on yourself, Darren, You're awesome. I hope you get
the help you deserve. And that's from Chris. We agree. Yeah.
(29:45):
Nice text message here says three years ago I was
diagnosed with complex PTSD after a hugely traumatic event. I
was struggling with anxiety and frequent panic attacks, particularly around
leaving my home for any reason. I spent months in therapy.
Deep brain reorientation helped me immensely. I still have my
(30:06):
days where I struggle, but the techn my therapist went
over with me definitely helped deep brain deep brain reorientation.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, I'm not particular. I'm not familiar with that to therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, i'll tell you what. We'll go back to the
calls right now, but at the start of New Sport
and after I've done New Sport and Weather in the
next hour, I want to get you back just to
talk to us about some strategies and practical stuff that
people can do. So if there's anyone out there listening tonight,
being like, I'd love the call, guys, but I'm just
being a little bit anxious about having that chat. Don't
you worry. We got you covered. We'll do it in
(30:40):
text to here. Actually, he says, hey, guys, good show.
I've got social anxiety duty years of bullying at school, honestly,
and then goes on to say, honestly, this country sucks
a mental health it makes me so angry. The culture
is far and then that just finishes. Yeah, right, yeah,
I might read that out it's too late at night.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Oh it's really thank you for raising that, because I mean,
it's kind of probably a whole other show in itself,
but bullying and social anxiety. I mean, there's a really
clear link there, and it's kind of obvious that you
don't need to be sigmud Freud to figure that out, right,
It's obvious if people, of course you harm scared of people,
social anxiety is you know. The thing is, we've got
(31:22):
all these sort of different segment different categories of anxiety disorders,
but this huge overlaps and actually one of the triggers
for a lot of people for panic attacks a social situations.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So it's interesting, isn't it, because you know, like we're
talking about that, but they're obviously you need talk about
school bullying, but like workplace bullying as well, right, Yeah,
which we know to be absolutely rife the number of
people I talk to, you know, and I probably would
have at least a conversation every week where people are
having just eight terrorrible time at work, and it's just
(31:56):
this culture of you know, people not knowing where they
stand leaving, you know, just sort of you know, like
strange intimidations and you know, who's wholar the popular person
and who's not, who's in with the management, who's not,
how things might be perceived, and it goes round and
round and round and round and it ends up literally
(32:19):
driving people nuts, causing a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Well, it's been forty to fifty hours a week at work, right,
it's a big part of anyone's life.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, I mean, I work with people, but I don't
have to go to an office every day for my work.
And I've got to be honest, I have noticed that
that's kind of how my life has been to the
last five years. And I've noticed the absence of having
to actually physically be around people like you know that
ready get to choose, but the absence of it is
(32:49):
a real privilege. It's it's incredible because that's the point,
right when you're going around with people that you don't
get to choose how they are. I mean, this is
not of your making. But we all need a job. Yeah,
and so a lot of the times, you know, and
I think sometimes too, you know, especially when you go
into a new workplace, you don't necessarily know what you
getting yourself into straight away. No, you don't.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
And I mean often just because someone has been there
long enough or has the skills to be able to
be promoted, doesn't necessarily mean they have the soft skills either.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Very very true. Yeah, yeah, what is it? Yeah? I
saw a movie about this, actually great movie actually with
Channing Tatum called roof Man. Ah yeah, and it was
about a guy who who actually he broke into places
through the roof but basically bash a hole and did
this and ended up living in a toy store for
the better part of a year in the state. It's
(33:44):
based on a true story, right, But he ended up
watching for his entertainment. He set up like baby monitor
cameras around the store and he put them like in
the manager's office and then basically like watched this manager
and the manager's really horrible. But it ended up becoming
like his pseudo reality TV show, right. And anyway, you know,
(34:04):
people come in and ask for time off on their
schedules because you know, they had up and to do
with the kids or whatever, and he says, oh, that's
a personal issue and that's not a professional issue. So look,
I'm sorry, but no, I need you. I need you here.
I don't care if it's your kid's birthday whatever. Anyway,
at night, he figured out how to get into the
computer you go and change the rosters. Nice people could vigilante. Yeah,
(34:26):
it was like a vigilante like like like a workplace
for Gilante. And I'm like, I feel like we all
need that somewhere in our life, don't we. Just someone
who just goes into angel just goes and does it. Anyway,
let's go back to the lines, Paul, good morning to you.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Good morning. I didn't realize it, but I had quite
a stressful job working, you know, doing things that not
a lot of people would want to have to do.
And and then one day, just out of the blue,
I was driving from all come back to my house
(35:01):
and room where and I didn't know where I was,
I didn't know who I was, didn't know I didn't
know any like, I sort of lost myself. And I
was fortunate enough to see one of the people that
you sometimes have on your show, and she was able
to send me straight away and help me through that.
(35:24):
And and and then and then came COVID and a
good friend of mine set up on TV and said
that if you're not at home, get home, get home
right now. And my daughter and my ex wife were
both over seized at the time, and that whole complex
(35:47):
post stress disorder, it just came. It just came back
and helped me like a like a breakfort, but he
fell out of the sky, you know. I just and
then after thinking about my daughter and ex wife, I
started thinking about all the other responsibilities are got to
(36:08):
deal with, and it sort of all came back to me,
you know. I remember it was about March to twenty third.
I think I don't remember the year, but oh god,
it was frightening and I ended up passing out. And
as you say, it wasn't hard to do. It was
just it was just still too much. Now, this couldn't code.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
And you're selling not alone. And as I'm sure you
well know that COVID really tipped a lot of people
back into their experiences of anxiety for lots of different reasons.
But did did your ex wife and daughter make it home?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
I got them home on the next flide unditionally, and
that they got home, and and all the other matters
that we had to deal with overseas at the time.
Once I started to put them into perspective, they really
didn't mean much, right, And so I was able to
cope and didn't drop back into the post traumatic stress
(37:14):
disorder that that I'd previously had through my role in
the in the defense force. And that and I and
I was lucky enough that it just didn't trip me
back into that. I just just got on with the
task at hand and dealt with what had to be
dealt with. But just it was just such an overwhelming
(37:38):
event at the time that you just people don't understand that. Well,
I just I just lost consciousness, you know, it just
passed out. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Well, and without going into any of the details, because
obviously you don't want to, and that's absolutely fair enough.
But you know, people who have served in all sorts
of situations with defense forces often find that it can
be quite some time after when the trauma actually hits them.
And it sounds like I hit you really hard, But
I'm glad you got the help at the time too.
It sounds like you access the right kind of help
(38:13):
when it did happen.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Well, she was brilliant, and you know I saw her
about ten times to come right. Doctor who's also a
good fellow of nine for a long time. He gave
me some guy in the pans, which I didn't I
didn't really need to take too much of it. I
took it for a few days, and I think I
(38:37):
ended up checking it away in the end because I
didn't need it. But you know, it was there and
available if I needed it, but I didn't really sort
of need it after about two days when I sort
of started to realize that they're a bigger, bigger fish
to fight at the.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Moment, absolutely absolutely no, Paul, thank you so much for
sharing that experience with us. That's it for this episode
of The Nutters Club. Thanks to everyone who called and texted,
and thanks to the the extremely valuable insight of psychotherapist
Carl McDonald. If you like what you heard and think
(39:14):
it might help someone out there, then please share this
episode on your own channels with family and friends, and
if you ever want to be part of the show,
give us a call or a text when we broadcast
live on Newstalk SEIDB eleven pm Sunday nights, New Zealand
standard time. Check out newstalkzb dot co dot MZ for
local frequencies or a link to the live stream. A
(39:35):
big thanks to New Zealand on Air for their ongoing
support and making the show. Take care and always remember
that the world is a better place with you and
it life well, it isn't easy, it is however worth it.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
For more from Newstalk ZEDB, listen live on air or online,
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