February 21, 2026 • 38 mins
Child safety reform in the world of big tech is sweeping the globe at the moment.
Australia's leading the charge in the social media ban for under 16s, and California has expanded the Coogan Law to cover child influencers, to name a few.
Although we haven't seen any change here in New Zealand, the conversation has truly started and we may see moves being made soon.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb Brother, you don't have.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
God shudder, you cut some world, then you still cut.
You came brother, word you don't.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Have Yes, Welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective and
it's a parent squad. We want your calls. I'd love
you to join our conversation on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty text nine nine two. And look, this is
an ongoing issue. Not I mean a little bit on
this show as well, but in the world of big tech,
child safety reform is something that is sweeping the globe.
(00:56):
The conversation is sweeping the globe, whether the legislation is
sweeping the globe. We've seen Australia with its law around
banning social media for the under sixteen. They're leading the charge.
California has expanded what's called the Cougan Law to cover
child influencers to name a few. I like the sign
of the sound of that. And although we haven't seen
any change in New Zealand, I think the you know,
(01:19):
the conversation has started. It feels that there's like a momentum,
regardless of the fact that maybe it's not the thing
that's leading the headlines all the time. But as you've seen,
we've got Meta and Mark Zuckerberg having to give evidence
because they're being accused of manipulating their software to make
it addictive to young people, well to everyone, to be honest.
(01:41):
But in the meantime, it's important that parents stay up
to date with where the danger lies in social media use,
in the aps and games that aren't safe for your kids.
Which are they? Are they all of them? What are
the science? What are the signs to look out for
that your child is being negatively impacted by social media?
So we're going to give a chat about that. We
want to know what you think on eight hundred and
(02:02):
eighty ten eighty or text nine two nine two and
joining us. He is a pediatrician and co host of
the One Young Mind podcast actually with Matilda Green, who
was our panelist last week. And his name is doctor
Meniche Deva and he is with me, amish.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
How are you tim good? Nice to be honest, I.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Did have a conversation. You look that med school hasn't
taken it out of you. Look you look you look
very fit and youthful.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I know I should have bought my hospital idea. Tim
was giving me so much grief. Are you really a doctor?
I saw that.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Look, he does look very young. We won't get into ages.
I don't like to discuss ages, but anyway, actually just well,
but it's all about introducing the audience to you and
tell us a bit about you and how you got
into pediatrics one thing to do a medical degree? Do
you always wanted to get into that side of things?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And yeah, I think a lot of it was actually
quite subconscious. Like I look back and I always kind
of when you got to choose things, kind of like
when you're in school, you get to choose a few subjects. Yeah,
in my training, I looked back and I thought I
always picked pediatrics and I quite like geriatrics as well.
And weirdly, they're quite similar sort of things you deal with.
Funnily enough, we won't talk about our own ages, but
(03:15):
what sort of for us.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I think we're in the middle there something.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, we're okay for now. But they're actually quite similar.
And so my story is pretty boring. Like I went
to high school nearby here, I went to med school,
then I worked at Starship for a number of years,
then around the country. But I've been a pediatrician out
west at Waitamata. Yeah, for about fourteen years, so I
feel a bit older.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Was it something even when you were studying it that
you gravitated that way? Because at what point do you
have to make the decision which way you're going to
go in terms of specialties, whether it's surgery or pediatrics or.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yes, I love the framing that I got to just
sort of choose. It's a little bit competitive in the
medical world, but it wasn't effective for me. I just like,
you know, kids, I think are so interesting. They're amazing creatures,
aren't they. And I just find even when we get
some really tricky stuff in the hospital, you'll have a
little baby, say on the ward, and they'll just let
off a huge, stinky fart and it can just break
(04:10):
the air. It's just so funny. And I found when
I did my adult runs, when I was on the
surgical ward, the jokes just went flying as much, and
I thought, the kids, Yeah, that's that's where it's at.
And kids. Kids are really good. They keep you young,
they keep you interesting, and they say the coolest stuff
all the time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Actually, I guess, Chris, there's there's the I mean it's
a challenging thing as well, because you know, when with pediatrics,
there would be tough stories to deal with with kids
like that, and it must add your dad, yourself. How
do you how do you coup with the hard stories?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, and I mean I think a lot of people
do struggle with that, and so I think sometimes you
can get that role sort of bit mixed up. Am
I the parent here or can I see my own
child in this situation? Or am I the doctor. I've
never really struggled with that, but I I really I
think you have to have a bit of stomach for
those really difficult things. But in kids' health, I think
(05:03):
we work quite collectively with teams. I work with wonderful,
amazing nurses, Like I would know all the names of
all the nurses on my ward. I would know all
the physiotherapists, the dieticians, and that's not always the case
in other busiest.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
It's a really lovely collaborative.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, it's a very collaborative. And if you a person
who likes lovely collaborative talkie stuff, then you're probably going
to end up sort of aligning yourself with pediatric So
I think some of that stuff the decision was really
made for me, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
And I guess the thing about you know, the different
difficult cases as with experience, as you go, you're not
doing anyone in any favors. If you are getting caught
up in the you know, the toughness of a situation,
you're not really helping them because the doctor's thing is
to you know, but I guess is to stay on task,
isn't it. That was a clumsy way of phrasing it.
(05:52):
But do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
I totally get what you mean. And I think that's
even been the case with this social media stuff. There's
been stuff that we thought were in parliament and that
wasn't really on my bingo card at the start of
the year. But I thought, what am I doing talking
to politicians at the footsteps of parliament?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
How did you? Okay, Well, because that's what we're here
to talk about. How did you get involved in the
whole social media side of things? Was it from a
clinical point of view or is it because you're politically
sort of offended by something?
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Or wow, this is a political nube sitting across from you.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Famous last words, finmus last words?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Now? Oh okay, Yeah, So just like with the career
thing or how do you do certain things? I feel
so strongly about the mission that really just comes ahead
of my own personal hang ups or feelings. And this one,
I mean, the evidence is so in on this, there's
no kind of debate. The evidence is really settled that
the amount of harm that we're seeing is just so
(06:47):
widespread now that something has to be done. In New
Zealand's in this kind of position where we didn't really
have a lot of protections. We're not encumbered by a
whole lot of previous laws, so we could, you know,
really fast follow other countries. We can make a change
here and you've probably, as an intro suggests, you know,
it's hard to name countries that are not looking at
(07:08):
doing something now.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
It's funny because I always start when I think something's interesting.
U say it's funny. It's not funny. It's interesting to
me that I don't necessarily see legislative momentum so much
as the public conversation. To me, I just feel that
while you know, we are having the conversation about what
we do in New Zealand, it doesn't feel like there's
(07:30):
massive legislative mode momentum and I'm not having a crack.
That's not having a crack either, because all I'm what
I want to do is I'm contrasting with I think
a lot of parents, especially, I think a lot of
us are just expecting that this is a no brainer
and so it will happen, and I'm almost complacent that
(07:50):
it's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, do you know what, But I do get that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you think what do you feel let's talk. We'll
get onto that in a second. Actually, but you did
say something where often scientists doctors are hesitant to say
that evidence is settled because evidence is, you know, with
any any particular condition or whatever can be evolving. How
how quickly has the evidence arrived in that we getting
(08:15):
too the stage where we settled already.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Yeah, and I probably need to do this is a
Boso clinician here, So I don't I'm not so worried
about the academic This is addiction. This is not addiction.
I think most of us in the clinical world, we
just apply that kind of sniff test. Yeah, like, yeah,
we think these kids are addicted to these devices, and
so we don't get bogged down by that. There's been
a lot of it obviously, what are the signs you
(08:39):
look for. Yeah, I mean there's just on the research thing.
There's been research over several years now, and we're talking decades.
So there's now what you call meta analysis, where you
do studies on top of studies, So looking at all
the studies together, we're going to do a study on that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So all the stats and digging right into it.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
It's very meta. And so yeah, you're looking now at studies,
collecting studies and so they're all coming to the same thing.
And I mean I was in America not long ago
at the Mayo Clinic. They have a big scientific pediatricians
and they have these two guys who have this academic
jousting thing about the current papers you need to know
about pediatrics, and they went through twenty papers real quick.
(09:18):
It was really good, really academic fulfilling, and they said, oh, yeah,
we didn't talk about social media devices because the last
six years, all the studies are exactly the same.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Wow. That sounds like it's pretty close to settle, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, I think we've done enough here.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Okay, so tell us what does the evidence show.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, so there's widespread harm really, and social media would
be at the top of the pile of that. And
I was trying to get your producer tyrit In on
the show because she had her own lift experience of this.
And that's what I found. When I talk with people,
she doesn't need much encouragement. I'm surprised she hasn't piped
up already smiling, but I can't see. I can't hear
what these head fins and.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
No, no, she's just smiling. You can't hear a smile.
It's just a visual cueue there. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
When I do talk with people, and I've took with
clinicians and it now pretty much happens all the time,
is that a clinician will come up to me, but
it will be actually someone they know. It's not what
their clinical had on. It's because they're an auntie or
an uncle or a mum or a dad, and they've
said I've seen this, like I've seen someone do really
badly with this. And the social media stuff is really prevalent.
(10:28):
So my our daughters are similar age. Yours are eleven thirteen,
I'm thirt eleven girl thirteen and fifteen girl and boy
oldest boy yeah, boy, yeah. But we just started at
the new school at the eleven year old, and the
policeman came up, who I won't name, but he came
up and he said, you know, we do a lot
with schools. We do about safety crossing the road, we
do stuff about relationships, we do about stuff about property damage,
(10:52):
road rules, all that kind of stuff. He said, eighty
percent of it. I know this year at least will
be about social media harm. That's basically what we're employing
the police now to do for young people.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So, okay, so what is the harm?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
So how that looks like? I guess if you're a parent,
you might be thinking, what are the signs? What am
I seeing? So we're just seeing huge rates of anxiety, depression,
We're seeing a lot of kids withdraw from things, and
that's quite soul destroying as a parent, And I think
those are the signs. You need to trust your intuition.
And I think what we've noticed with the podcast I
(11:32):
do with Maddie is that there seems to be this
kind of thing that people maybe silently suffering, like as
a bit of shame factor, Like my kids really digitally dependent,
they're really stuck on a device, and it's really kind
of we don't want to talk about it, but I've
seen quite a change in the last few months of
the last year that I think everyone, like you say,
is talking about the public's really on board. It's kind
(11:54):
of like a no brainer when's the law going to
come in? So I think there has been a lot
of people have been leaders in the space, particularly Flowers
need to go out to the people in Australia. Actually
people from radio you might know them which radio over there,
Whipper and Greg, the two radio personalities, and they really
(12:15):
got the whole kind of movement going in Australia and
they've really led the way. So I do want to
say I think they've had a big role in this,
particularly in this part of the world.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
So is it a no brainer that we're going to
do it here?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, As you I mentioned, I'm a bit of a
political nube, But I think what we do know is
that there was a Select Committee inquiry and they did
listen to people, all sorts of people, even clinicians like myself,
and they came back with their interim findings. So that's something.
And the top of the pile. The number one recommendation
was we need to age restrict social media. So that's
(12:49):
the number one thing, and that's.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Who are the most Who are the politicians who are
at the forefront of you really getting into this issue
or should be getting into this issue.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yeah, so it doesn't seem to be following political lines
in my view, but you know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
A political I think would No, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I mean, I mean the big parties, and I won't
name check them in case that sets people off. But
they're all on board.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
We've come to the right place if you want to
see people laugh, But that's fine.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I thought that was the morning show.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
You don't want to.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So that the political parties, there's broad support across all
of them, and we actually there was some research done
on the voter bases and you know, all of their
voters of these parties, they was like, this is a
no brainer. You need to get this done now.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Okay, so what what are the what are the harms?
Let's let's talk about what it really looks like, softy
stuff now, now, let's get into it. Yeah, I mean, otherwise,
if we pussy foot around about this stuff, then people
here a little bit of something they think, oh look
it's the parents. They just need to sort this out.
So let's talk about the harms.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Yeah, so this is pretty fresh and raw for me
and Maddie. I'm sure as well, because we did a
podcast yesterday with the mum who lost her child, and
she just gave the kind of really good, brave recount
of how it started, just like, oh, we had to
hide a device, and then it was he's on the
(14:18):
device all the time, and this is now clouding up
the whole kind of lived experience at home. And then
if it wasn't the device, then it seemed to be
other risky behavior which often happens in research studies. That's
what happens next. And then there were ups and downs
and things might have been getting better, then they might
have got worse and a real tragic outcome. And you know,
(14:39):
her story is very compelling because she quite plainly says,
I'm sure he didn't want it to go this way.
That's just you know, and she wasn't aware of the
kind of ways these platforms are really taking over.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I want to ask some really potentially dumb but tough
questions about, you know, whether, because mental health challenges exist
for people, whether there are devices or not, are children
who have problems with that? Is this something you know
where I'm going with this.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Yeah, mental health is it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
But mental health is a big one. What is the
role that devices play on top of the anguish and
harmful thoughts that kids can have? Because there will be
and I say that but to be Devil's advocate, because
they'll be like people say, well, you know, this happened,
and the devices get the blame, but really, you know,
maybe there were some problems that we're going to be
(15:34):
manifesting themselves regardless of whether there's a device involved or not.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, and I think devil's advocate voices are really important
because we want to make good decisions for kids.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Here it's the invisible voice of the person who's wondering.
And I know I'll have conversations with people are going, oh, look,
you know, the tragedies happen, the devices get the blame
all the time, and it's it's more than that.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yep, easy fixed moral panic. All these kind of things
come out. There has been some really good studies where
they showed in the UK what follows a dose response
kind of observation. So the more these kids were all
dose response. Yeah, so the more you were on it,
the worse you did. And those studies are quite powerful,
(16:14):
and there's been quite a few big studies, one involving
thirty five thousand people from Stanford and they just measured,
you know, how's your wellbeing the internal Facebook and Instagram,
just those two apps you can keep using your phone,
and their well being went up. So those kind of
withdrawal studies and those dose response studies make you think, Okay,
mental health is complicated, but this thing is really kind
(16:37):
of good.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But the evidence is there that social media is harmful?
Is there a way in which social I mean, that's funny.
I don't personally use social media much at all. No, no,
but there was a time when you'd use it because
of the other work I was doing with promoting things.
And I find I don't know why. It's because I'm
reading more and so and I'm learning a language and
(17:00):
so I just don't have time for it. And it
is funny just even as a grown up who's been
around I have a lot more than kids that I
just feel less cluttered because there's not that noise. In fact,
now I go on and I go, oh god, I've
got those stupid feeds. Switch that off. But you know
that's I guess it ties into the question of it's
(17:20):
one thing to talk about talk about banning it, but
you know, it's like anything. If you ban if you
stop someone from accessing something they're addicted to, sometimes they
want it more. What's the what's There's got to be
something about You've got to fill that gap, don't you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And I do really feel and worry about those parents
and kids who have just got really used to that.
And we've all seen those kind of scenes in a
restaurant where the family's out great having dinner, they're all
on a device, and I think that that's going to
be hard to undo that kind of normalized behavior. And
I think with the legislative change, it's really about this
(17:58):
kind of generational norms, Like if we can change that
for the next generation, that will be really powerful. But
I feel really worried about those digitally dependent kids who
are kind of in the heat of it.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And how do we distinguish or do we distinguish between Oh,
actually tell you what, God, I could have just cared
on chatting. We've got to take a moment. I'll come back,
We're going to regroup. I've got a few more questions
to dig into. But if you are a parent or
a child. Actually, you're curious, and I think a lot
of parents are. Maniche and I are going to continue
(18:32):
chatting about this, but if you want to, if you've
got any questions or thoughts on this, we'd love you
to join the conversation on eight hundred and eighty ten
to eighty. And if you don't, don't worry. I've got
truckloads to dig into with Manisha about this. This is
the weekend collective with the Parents Squad. It is twenty
five past five news Talk said b. This is the
Parent Squad. My guest is doctor Manish Dva. He's host
co host with Matilda Green of the One Young Mind
(18:55):
podcast and we're talking about child's safety in the world
of social media and what we need to do with
it now. Meniche, you were talking about the you know,
the studies that show that the social media apps, in
particular the Instagram and the Instagram and Facebook, you know,
you get off them and you know you hit in
a better direction, and when you're on them, the wellness
(19:17):
index just keeps progressively getting worse. I think would be
my summing up of it. And that's too clumsy.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah, No, I think that's there's probably some nuance there,
but I think that if you had to put it
in a nutshell or a one sentencing and it might
seem like I'm picking on meta, which I don't mind doing.
But there I mean talking with Tyras, she came through
the snapchat tumblr generation, as she called it. Now there's
some wild stuff out there, there's some really wild stuff
(19:44):
out there.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, I guess this is the thing. When Australia announced
its ban, it included YouTube, which I thought was an
interesting one and problematic in a way because I watch
YouTube for news and for interesting. Half of my stuff
I'm getting a you know, I'm getting a a Kimodo
(20:05):
dragon consuming a goat or something. But the wildlife stuff,
and to me, there's a lot of educational stuff. There
are Attenborough stuff and things on YouTube. What is what
are the harmful? Because kids you can't separate devices from kids.
So where are we what are we focusing on when
(20:26):
we're talking about the harmful social media? And where do
we draw the line? And how do we draw the line?
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Drawing lines? Yeah, all reasons you might think, well, let's
not do something.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
No no, no, no, no, no idea. It's just for
parents who want to say you're not having this, No,
you're not having that, all that, all that, all that,
and this is is this why it's important for the
state to play a role with this? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Absolutely, And I think most people we just want to
see progress and we're not hoping for perfection. We won't
get perfection, but we need progress. And I think what
I can't speak for what they've done in Australia, but
YouTube is just such a big platform. So when you
look at the numbers, there's just heaps of harm head there,
and percentage wise, it's probably not as bad as TikTok
(21:08):
and snapchat and a few others, but it's just such
a big it's just such a big platform.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Actually. Also, I think I worked out an answer for
myself on that one, because if they said that that
was included and I wanted to show my clips and
my kids a clip of something educational, I can still
do that. It's just that they can't go they can't
you know, they can't fish around themselves.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
And if we're diving into the weeds a bit with
YouTube and the differences of the platform, I want to
know how you search that. Actually that usually tells a
lot about someone eating.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I mentioned that as a joke because I watched was
watching a an at Andborough thing and the killer whales
hunting seals, and because it was the killer whales hunting
seals by you know, creating the wave and breaking up
the icebergs, which is quite ingenious. At some stage, just
had a picture of a Kimodo dragon. I thought, what's
that thing? I clicked on it.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, there you go twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I've seen animals hunting animal.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely life, Yeah exactly, And so I think,
I mean YouTube one of the most dangerous things for
a lot of kids is a lot of that messaging
by randos, and a lot of that doesn't really happen
on YouTube. You can sort of do it, but you can't.
You don't really use YouTube for that. No, I don't
(22:25):
know if you've seend messages on YouTube. It's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I mean, I had a clip that got a few
million responses for something, and I did get curious on
how many likes it got, but it was ninety nine
point nine percent loving it. Now everyone's curious what that
clip was. But I won't share it with you right
now because that's not the topic. But yeah, I it's
the is it the is it the seeking of feedback
and likes and popularity? That is the real Where's the
(22:52):
damage happened with the social media?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Well, I mean it's multifold with social media, certainly the
random messaging which a lot of the platforms really encourage.
And once again to reference your lovely producer Tire, we're
talking about I talk with a lot of people and
they'll have one experience on Snapchat. Let's talk about Snapchat.
And in Snapchat you can do a whole lot of
stuff that every parent's probably going to be a bit
a ghast if their kids on Snapchat. Right now, you
(23:16):
can turn on a map view and everyone can see
you here right now, and you don't know who these
people are, but they can see you're there. And so
my sister in law was with a school trip. She's
a teacher in Gold Coast, and they had their platform on.
Next thing, you know, there's a huge brawl because oh,
people know where you are. People know where you are are,
they're from New Zealand. Maybe some messages go around. I
met a young person in ale in Fonger Pray. She's
(23:39):
been living pretty rough. Obviously, won't go into the clinical detail.
I said, how does it all work? I just turn
on Snapchat matview, and she's a young person, she's very young,
and she just gets this full screenshot of all the
menu and these are drug items that just get sent
to her unprompted, and this will continuously happens. Turn on
(24:00):
this app.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Okay, so we don't want Snapchat. Actually it's not funny
because I don't know enough about it. And my kids
were saying, oh, can I get Snapchat Dad? And I didn't.
I just said no. But I didn't say no for
that reason. I just said no, because no, you don't
need Snapchat. I didn't think of anything serious. I didn't
think of a I didn't know anything about the potential
what you've just described. I just thought of thought, No,
(24:23):
that's a social media thing where you want likes and
all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Now, yeah, I wish it was just wanting lakes, but
it's just such a fast moving space that it's really
there's a lot of things happening there. The other thing
with snapshet is that disappearing messages, and so that's just
baked in to the.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
You know, actually this is slightly off, but it's sort
of on I'm on a fitness app called Strava, which
is for tracking bikes.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Everyone's Facebook Strava, but I got.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
A message from he's actually a farmer in Cambridge who said, look.
He said, look, because you're on the radio, can I
make a suggestion that you hide your location of where
you start and end your rides, because otherwise you're telling
everyone where you live. And I thought, and so I've
passed it on to a friend of mine whose daughter's
on it. She's an athlete, and I said, you might
(25:14):
want to get her to do that as well, because
there's another example and something that's seemingly harmless. It's a
piece of technology, but you can if you don't take
the right steps. People know where you.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Live absolutely and it can go into really unintended places.
And like your Kimodo dragon story, a lot of kids
are You're curious, so they click on something and then
they go, okay, I'll click on the next thing, because
you know, that round of the casino seemed pretty good,
that was pretty interesting. And a lot of journalists actually
(25:45):
have done this experiment, particularly with Instagram and Snapchat, where
they just sign up as a thirteen year old or
a twelve year old girl and they will say I
like kittens, and they'll get kidden videos, but then they
eventually the platform needs them to stay on. So what
keeps you on is seeing someone in distress or something
you can't really look away from. Yeah, And it's really
(26:06):
unfortunate because that is what we've got, this human nature,
like we don't want to look away from that stuff,
and they want to keep your eyeballs on that screen
for the maximum amount of time.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Do you reckon mata this lawsuit? Ohly they are that
they manipulate the algorithms to enhance addictiveness. What's your reckons
on that?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
I think the internal leaked memo that was part of
the evidence was this engineered addiction. That's the kind of
parlance they've used. And so I guess it's more illegal
battle in the States, but it will be quite impactful potentially,
because I think there's over two thousand other lawsuits which
are kind of watching this lawsuit to see what happens.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
And so.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
I don't understand the American legal system. But it's really
good they've got the CEOs to take the stand because
the last time we really saw the CEO those of
these big tech companies, particularly the one for Meta was
when he did the Senate hearings and one of the
kind of reveals was all of these tech companies, they
don't let their own kids near this stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Well, have they actually asked him that under oath? That
has that come up about? Because I had heard, you know,
you just hear things, and maybe it's reported that he
doesn't let his own kids have a device at home,
and come up in this trial'd be the first question,
wouldn't It's like, do you let your own children.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Have absolutely And that's the question that comes up to
me in my chlinical work all the time. Sometimes we
will have something quite complicated or something quite serious, and
family members they will digest all that, but they'll say,
what would you do if as your kid?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
You know?
Speaker 4 (27:45):
And I think that's on a parent level.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Here's okay, No, I'm going to take the break again
and we'll come back because it's too easy to let
time slip by. So we will be back in just
a minute. Because I want to dig into, you know,
the role of the state versus parents and how we
get on top of this, because if the state don't
legislate for it, then parents need to be making these decisions.
So we'll get into that, and just to take my
(28:10):
guest is doctor Meniche Diva. He is co host of
the One Young Mind podcast with Matilda Green. He's a pediatrician.
We're talking about the serious harm that the evidence is
settled that will that social media causes to our children
and what do we do about it. I eight one
hundred and eighty ten eighty. If you want to join
the conversation, we'll be back in a moment. Hews talks
to be Yes. Indeed, Meniche Diva, doctor Meniche Diva, pediatrician,
(28:32):
co host of the One Young podcast, is with us
talking about the harm of social media. Maniche, So, you know,
one of the things that people say is that you know,
this is just parents, they just need to make a decision.
And I think usually that's from someone who doesn't really
understand how insidious social media is. And it's I'm all
(28:56):
for having the It's like saying it's up to parents
not to let the kids access alcohol. Well, we do
have a laura around that as well, which supports us
and having the law to back up you know that
something is bad for our kids is actually quite a
useful parental tool, Like why can't I do that, dad,
because it's against the law. So what's your take on
(29:18):
the role of the state versus the role of parents.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
I think you have got it in a nutshell. I mean,
if you tell a kid, oh, you can't go on
this because they said so, and oh you can't go
on this, and it's actually against the law, it's completely different.
And talking about this with many different people now, I
do find the conversation is quite different from people who
don't have kids.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And or who have had their kids and they've moved on.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
And they have moved on or something. But it's just
a different conversation. And I've had that conversation many times now.
And you do meet other voices who are sort of
that free speech absolutist, But usually you say, why we're
talking about kids, and the usually go, oh, yeah, that's
kind of different. You know, I don't have the right
to send my you know, awful image to a twelve
(30:05):
year old. That free speech doesn't work that way around.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Okay, what should parents be aware of when it comes
to social media use? Because at the moment it's not criminal.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
It's not criminal.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Children have access to various social media depending on at
least they can't access to school. Bravo, something that seemed
like such a sort of mild piece of legislation. I
went not allowed but not going to allow devices bloody brilliant.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Bradly brilliant. I mean, if we could double click this
because I just want to give flowers to the government
because I know it didn't get picked up by the media,
but the research has come in for phone free schools
in New Zealand, and I know there's a debate and
probably on this radio station about phonics or room sizes
or too many Maori words or not enough to round
(30:53):
Mari words. This was just such an overwhelming improvement in
kids learning, behavior, anxiety, distress, and it disproportionately affected in
the lowest social economic bands. Pacific did the best out
of this. Now it seems like we've got a pretty good,
cost attractive thing we can do and that we could
(31:13):
actually roll out a bit further. But it didn't really
get the traction I think it deserves.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Is that because it's parties, you know, because the one
government brought it in and the others didn't, and so
they never want to give credit because it does feel that,
you know, we do spend a lot of time arguing
about these trivial sort of things about when we introduced
to Rao and things like that, and and here's this
massive win man and we're going, oh, yeah, it's good news,
by the way, and then we move on it's massive.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I know, I don't have the brain. Why is that happening? Make?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Make it?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Can this radio station wet that on? Blast?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Okay? So what text? What are the worst types of
social media? Hmm?
Speaker 4 (31:54):
I'd be interested because one of my thought you were
going to tell us, Yeah, well, all I can do
is because I talk with a lot of kids, you know,
and I'm constantly it is a really fast evolving, changing landscape.
But we know there's some really bad stuff on Snapchat.
We know this, and for reasons, that's sort of baked
(32:15):
into the platform. There's some really bad stuff on TikTok,
and this is just one of these other surreal moments. So, oh,
guess where TikTok isn't banned China? Why's that?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Well it's a rhetorical question.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
It's a rhetorical question. And so the originators of the
app have a completely different version. They're like, then we're
never going to allow this for a young people it's
also banned in India.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So it's banned in China.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Yeah, they have a different one and it's a completely
different It's you know, from what I understand, this is
the thing.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Okay, I'm a parent. I'm listening and my kids will say, oh,
can I have TikTok?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Dad?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Got there some funny videos? And they'll show us some
harmless stuff. How does a parent answer that to their
kids when their kids are like, well, it's just this
video of this cat doing somersaults or these people playing around,
or cute kitten moments, And how do I, as a
parent answer that to my child?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Well, our kids are similar ages, and it's hard to
be really specific and general at the same time. You know,
every culture home is different. But one thing for eleven
year old who I won't name because she'll kill me,
but we have you know, if they're watching something, it
has to be on the TV. Yeah, and me and
(33:27):
my wife are probably that generation. We remember watching stuff
on the TV.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
See. That's a tough one because in a way, because
this is where device is, my kids are like, well,
you're on your phone. Dad. It's like, well, I'm actually reading.
Do you want to see what I'm reading right now,
I'm reading the New Zealand Herald and I'm reading something
an article I'm read, so it's like my office as well.
And that's a tough one because it is a bit
of like, well, well, I just say to them, if
(33:52):
you want to spend your time reading the news, you're
welcome in a way. But then again you'd say no,
they're on a device anyway, So I mean, where do
we balance devices because devices are part of their lives.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
I can see your face contorting on the.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I'm catching my myself and some sort of hypocrisy.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
I don't know, yeah, but I think that's a real thing,
and I think I don't I'm sort of like want
to play the kids side, Like, you know, you reading
the Herald is really you know, you're probably getting a
dopamine hit out of that video.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
It's the newspaper, but it's on a screen.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've each got a thing, and
so I think parents can have a real opportunity here
to just check their own behavior and role model. And
it's a conversation for us all one of those things
about you know, this big report from phone free schools,
one of the little caveats where it didn't seem to
work so well was drum roll, it was the parents
(34:49):
messaging the kids during school time.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, which I think many parents probably have had might
have done, because they've like, oh, by the way, you've
got a dental appointment I forgot to tell you about
after school.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yep. And I've heard much more different ones that kids
tell me, Oh yeah, my parents messaged me this.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh okay. I mean, it's just why again, it plays
into the whole thing of there has to be a
law that the governments have got to get on board because,
for instance, I would say to a fifteen year older,
don't want you're drinking alcohol? Oh, but I've seen you
have a glass of wine, you know, on the weekend. Dad,
(35:26):
It's like and my answer is like, yes, I'm a
grown up and it's legal and it's not for you,
and it's quite useful to have that, although they also
know that alcohol is not great anyway. But I mean,
is there is that part of the reason that the
state legislating for this stuff is important.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Well, I'd probably say it's really important the government intervenes
the state legislature because this is really going to support parents.
What parents want to do. This is actually supportive for parents.
This is not like a kind of balance of like, oh,
we're trading off one for the other. Parents really want
this and they're crying out for help. Now, the social
media companies are going to firmly put pre sure on
(36:05):
the argument that this is a parenting issue because they
know it's really hard and it's not working.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
And what's your as I mean, actually, do you have
anything further to say to that? To those arguments, then
we'll get people who saying, look, it's just lousy parents.
They need to toughen up and tell their kids know.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Yeah, exactly, And like before, it's I've had those conversations.
It's usually people who haven't got kids in this kind
of zone. And you know, if you're enough, everyone's got opinion,
and you know, I don't want to discredit that, but
it is different.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
No, you do want to discredit it. Should even know
what you mean is I want to be polite, but
you do what you do need to discredit it because
the evidence is in, isn't it It's harmful, don't let
your kids on social media?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
And just that bit about what can you do about it?
That that thing of just saying, well, a parent can
sort this out. That's not the lived experience of what
we know is happening. It is really difficult. These devices
have incredible technology psychology. Bing gets your attention, they have
incredible ways they work on your mind. And I mean
(37:11):
if you do look at a casino and you see
people playing Pokey's, it doesn't look that different from this
infinite scroll machine.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Ping ping ping. Hey, look maniche we're gonna have to
get you back, aren't we, Because believe it or not,
we've we've we've run our course with the time. Wise
you're happy to come back and have a chat again sometime.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, I don't want to get in trouble with your producer.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I always like people, you know, it's all nothing like
putting a bit of pressure on you on air. Anyway, Hey,
thank you so much for thanks so much for coming
on and I had people. I imagine there'll be a
lot of parents have got a lot out of that.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
So oh, thanks so much and go fourth parents. We
can do this.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Good on you. Hey, that is doctor Manish Steva. Don't
forget you can listen to any of I would recommend
if you've just joined the conversation late go back and
have a listen right from the start any of our
hours of course on iHeartRadio and News Talk set be
dot curted and said we're going to wrap sport in
just a moment with Kobe Murti. It's just gone ten
minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb Brother, you don't have.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
God shudder, you cut some world, then you still cut.
You came brother, word you don't.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Have Yes, Welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective and
it's a parent squad. We want your calls. I'd love
you to join our conversation on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty text nine nine two. And look, this is
an ongoing issue. Not I mean a little bit on
this show as well, but in the world of big tech,
child safety reform is something that is sweeping the globe.
(00:56):
The conversation is sweeping the globe, whether the legislation is
sweeping the globe. We've seen Australia with its law around
banning social media for the under sixteen. They're leading the charge.
California has expanded what's called the Cougan Law to cover
child influencers to name a few. I like the sign
of the sound of that. And although we haven't seen
any change in New Zealand, I think the you know,
(01:19):
the conversation has started. It feels that there's like a momentum,
regardless of the fact that maybe it's not the thing
that's leading the headlines all the time. But as you've seen,
we've got Meta and Mark Zuckerberg having to give evidence
because they're being accused of manipulating their software to make
it addictive to young people, well to everyone, to be honest.
(01:41):
But in the meantime, it's important that parents stay up
to date with where the danger lies in social media use,
in the aps and games that aren't safe for your kids.
Which are they? Are they all of them? What are
the science? What are the signs to look out for
that your child is being negatively impacted by social media?
So we're going to give a chat about that. We
want to know what you think on eight hundred and
(02:02):
eighty ten eighty or text nine two nine two and
joining us. He is a pediatrician and co host of
the One Young Mind podcast actually with Matilda Green, who
was our panelist last week. And his name is doctor
Meniche Deva and he is with me, amish.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
How are you tim good? Nice to be honest, I.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Did have a conversation. You look that med school hasn't
taken it out of you. Look you look you look
very fit and youthful.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I know I should have bought my hospital idea. Tim
was giving me so much grief. Are you really a doctor?
I saw that.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Look, he does look very young. We won't get into ages.
I don't like to discuss ages, but anyway, actually just well,
but it's all about introducing the audience to you and
tell us a bit about you and how you got
into pediatrics one thing to do a medical degree? Do
you always wanted to get into that side of things?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And yeah, I think a lot of it was actually
quite subconscious. Like I look back and I always kind
of when you got to choose things, kind of like
when you're in school, you get to choose a few subjects. Yeah,
in my training, I looked back and I thought I
always picked pediatrics and I quite like geriatrics as well.
And weirdly, they're quite similar sort of things you deal with.
Funnily enough, we won't talk about our own ages, but
(03:15):
what sort of for us.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I think we're in the middle there something.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, we're okay for now. But they're actually quite similar.
And so my story is pretty boring. Like I went
to high school nearby here, I went to med school,
then I worked at Starship for a number of years,
then around the country. But I've been a pediatrician out
west at Waitamata. Yeah, for about fourteen years, so I
feel a bit older.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Was it something even when you were studying it that
you gravitated that way? Because at what point do you
have to make the decision which way you're going to
go in terms of specialties, whether it's surgery or pediatrics or.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yes, I love the framing that I got to just
sort of choose. It's a little bit competitive in the
medical world, but it wasn't effective for me. I just like,
you know, kids, I think are so interesting. They're amazing creatures,
aren't they. And I just find even when we get
some really tricky stuff in the hospital, you'll have a
little baby, say on the ward, and they'll just let
off a huge, stinky fart and it can just break
(04:10):
the air. It's just so funny. And I found when
I did my adult runs, when I was on the
surgical ward, the jokes just went flying as much, and
I thought, the kids, Yeah, that's that's where it's at.
And kids. Kids are really good. They keep you young,
they keep you interesting, and they say the coolest stuff
all the time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Actually, I guess, Chris, there's there's the I mean it's
a challenging thing as well, because you know, when with pediatrics,
there would be tough stories to deal with with kids
like that, and it must add your dad, yourself. How
do you how do you coup with the hard stories?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, and I mean I think a lot of people
do struggle with that, and so I think sometimes you
can get that role sort of bit mixed up. Am
I the parent here or can I see my own
child in this situation? Or am I the doctor. I've
never really struggled with that, but I I really I
think you have to have a bit of stomach for
those really difficult things. But in kids' health, I think
(05:03):
we work quite collectively with teams. I work with wonderful,
amazing nurses, Like I would know all the names of
all the nurses on my ward. I would know all
the physiotherapists, the dieticians, and that's not always the case
in other busiest.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
It's a really lovely collaborative.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, it's a very collaborative. And if you a person
who likes lovely collaborative talkie stuff, then you're probably going
to end up sort of aligning yourself with pediatric So
I think some of that stuff the decision was really
made for me, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
And I guess the thing about you know, the different
difficult cases as with experience, as you go, you're not
doing anyone in any favors. If you are getting caught
up in the you know, the toughness of a situation,
you're not really helping them because the doctor's thing is
to you know, but I guess is to stay on task,
isn't it. That was a clumsy way of phrasing it.
(05:52):
But do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
I totally get what you mean. And I think that's
even been the case with this social media stuff. There's
been stuff that we thought were in parliament and that
wasn't really on my bingo card at the start of
the year. But I thought, what am I doing talking
to politicians at the footsteps of parliament?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
How did you? Okay, Well, because that's what we're here
to talk about. How did you get involved in the
whole social media side of things? Was it from a
clinical point of view or is it because you're politically
sort of offended by something?
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Or wow, this is a political nube sitting across from you.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Famous last words, finmus last words?
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Now? Oh okay, Yeah, So just like with the career
thing or how do you do certain things? I feel
so strongly about the mission that really just comes ahead
of my own personal hang ups or feelings. And this one,
I mean, the evidence is so in on this, there's
no kind of debate. The evidence is really settled that
the amount of harm that we're seeing is just so
(06:47):
widespread now that something has to be done. In New
Zealand's in this kind of position where we didn't really
have a lot of protections. We're not encumbered by a
whole lot of previous laws, so we could, you know,
really fast follow other countries. We can make a change
here and you've probably, as an intro suggests, you know,
it's hard to name countries that are not looking at
(07:08):
doing something now.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
It's funny because I always start when I think something's interesting.
U say it's funny. It's not funny. It's interesting to
me that I don't necessarily see legislative momentum so much
as the public conversation. To me, I just feel that
while you know, we are having the conversation about what
we do in New Zealand, it doesn't feel like there's
(07:30):
massive legislative mode momentum and I'm not having a crack.
That's not having a crack either, because all I'm what
I want to do is I'm contrasting with I think
a lot of parents, especially, I think a lot of
us are just expecting that this is a no brainer
and so it will happen, and I'm almost complacent that
(07:50):
it's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, do you know what, But I do get that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you think what do you feel let's talk. We'll
get onto that in a second. Actually, but you did
say something where often scientists doctors are hesitant to say
that evidence is settled because evidence is, you know, with
any any particular condition or whatever can be evolving. How
how quickly has the evidence arrived in that we getting
(08:15):
too the stage where we settled already.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Yeah, and I probably need to do this is a
Boso clinician here, So I don't I'm not so worried
about the academic This is addiction. This is not addiction.
I think most of us in the clinical world, we
just apply that kind of sniff test. Yeah, like, yeah,
we think these kids are addicted to these devices, and
so we don't get bogged down by that. There's been
a lot of it obviously, what are the signs you
(08:39):
look for. Yeah, I mean there's just on the research thing.
There's been research over several years now, and we're talking decades.
So there's now what you call meta analysis, where you
do studies on top of studies, So looking at all
the studies together, we're going to do a study on that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So all the stats and digging right into it.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
It's very meta. And so yeah, you're looking now at studies,
collecting studies and so they're all coming to the same thing.
And I mean I was in America not long ago
at the Mayo Clinic. They have a big scientific pediatricians
and they have these two guys who have this academic
jousting thing about the current papers you need to know
about pediatrics, and they went through twenty papers real quick.
(09:18):
It was really good, really academic fulfilling, and they said, oh, yeah,
we didn't talk about social media devices because the last
six years, all the studies are exactly the same.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Wow. That sounds like it's pretty close to settle, doesn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, I think we've done enough here.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Okay, so tell us what does the evidence show.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, so there's widespread harm really, and social media would
be at the top of the pile of that. And
I was trying to get your producer tyrit In on
the show because she had her own lift experience of this.
And that's what I found. When I talk with people,
she doesn't need much encouragement. I'm surprised she hasn't piped
up already smiling, but I can't see. I can't hear
what these head fins and.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
No, no, she's just smiling. You can't hear a smile.
It's just a visual cueue there. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
When I do talk with people, and I've took with
clinicians and it now pretty much happens all the time,
is that a clinician will come up to me, but
it will be actually someone they know. It's not what
their clinical had on. It's because they're an auntie or
an uncle or a mum or a dad, and they've
said I've seen this, like I've seen someone do really
badly with this. And the social media stuff is really prevalent.
(10:28):
So my our daughters are similar age. Yours are eleven thirteen,
I'm thirt eleven girl thirteen and fifteen girl and boy
oldest boy yeah, boy, yeah. But we just started at
the new school at the eleven year old, and the
policeman came up, who I won't name, but he came
up and he said, you know, we do a lot
with schools. We do about safety crossing the road, we
do stuff about relationships, we do about stuff about property damage,
(10:52):
road rules, all that kind of stuff. He said, eighty
percent of it. I know this year at least will
be about social media harm. That's basically what we're employing
the police now to do for young people.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So, okay, so what is the harm?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
So how that looks like? I guess if you're a parent,
you might be thinking, what are the signs? What am
I seeing? So we're just seeing huge rates of anxiety, depression,
We're seeing a lot of kids withdraw from things, and
that's quite soul destroying as a parent, And I think
those are the signs. You need to trust your intuition.
And I think what we've noticed with the podcast I
(11:32):
do with Maddie is that there seems to be this
kind of thing that people maybe silently suffering, like as
a bit of shame factor, Like my kids really digitally dependent,
they're really stuck on a device, and it's really kind
of we don't want to talk about it, but I've
seen quite a change in the last few months of
the last year that I think everyone, like you say,
is talking about the public's really on board. It's kind
(11:54):
of like a no brainer when's the law going to
come in? So I think there has been a lot
of people have been leaders in the space, particularly Flowers
need to go out to the people in Australia. Actually
people from radio you might know them which radio over there,
Whipper and Greg, the two radio personalities, and they really
(12:15):
got the whole kind of movement going in Australia and
they've really led the way. So I do want to
say I think they've had a big role in this,
particularly in this part of the world.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
So is it a no brainer that we're going to
do it here?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, As you I mentioned, I'm a bit of a
political nube, But I think what we do know is
that there was a Select Committee inquiry and they did
listen to people, all sorts of people, even clinicians like myself,
and they came back with their interim findings. So that's something.
And the top of the pile. The number one recommendation
was we need to age restrict social media. So that's
(12:49):
the number one thing, and that's.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Who are the most Who are the politicians who are
at the forefront of you really getting into this issue
or should be getting into this issue.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yeah, so it doesn't seem to be following political lines
in my view, but you know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
A political I think would No, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I mean, I mean the big parties, and I won't
name check them in case that sets people off. But
they're all on board.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
We've come to the right place if you want to
see people laugh, But that's fine.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I thought that was the morning show.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
You don't want to.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So that the political parties, there's broad support across all
of them, and we actually there was some research done
on the voter bases and you know, all of their
voters of these parties, they was like, this is a
no brainer. You need to get this done now.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Okay, so what what are the what are the harms?
Let's let's talk about what it really looks like, softy
stuff now, now, let's get into it. Yeah, I mean, otherwise,
if we pussy foot around about this stuff, then people
here a little bit of something they think, oh look
it's the parents. They just need to sort this out.
So let's talk about the harms.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Yeah, so this is pretty fresh and raw for me
and Maddie. I'm sure as well, because we did a
podcast yesterday with the mum who lost her child, and
she just gave the kind of really good, brave recount
of how it started, just like, oh, we had to
hide a device, and then it was he's on the
(14:18):
device all the time, and this is now clouding up
the whole kind of lived experience at home. And then
if it wasn't the device, then it seemed to be
other risky behavior which often happens in research studies. That's
what happens next. And then there were ups and downs
and things might have been getting better, then they might
have got worse and a real tragic outcome. And you know,
(14:39):
her story is very compelling because she quite plainly says,
I'm sure he didn't want it to go this way.
That's just you know, and she wasn't aware of the
kind of ways these platforms are really taking over.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I want to ask some really potentially dumb but tough
questions about, you know, whether, because mental health challenges exist
for people, whether there are devices or not, are children
who have problems with that? Is this something you know
where I'm going with this.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Yeah, mental health is it.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
But mental health is a big one. What is the
role that devices play on top of the anguish and
harmful thoughts that kids can have? Because there will be
and I say that but to be Devil's advocate, because
they'll be like people say, well, you know, this happened,
and the devices get the blame, but really, you know,
maybe there were some problems that we're going to be
(15:34):
manifesting themselves regardless of whether there's a device involved or not.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, and I think devil's advocate voices are really important
because we want to make good decisions for kids.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Here it's the invisible voice of the person who's wondering.
And I know I'll have conversations with people are going, oh, look,
you know, the tragedies happen, the devices get the blame
all the time, and it's it's more than that.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yep, easy fixed moral panic. All these kind of things
come out. There has been some really good studies where
they showed in the UK what follows a dose response
kind of observation. So the more these kids were all
dose response. Yeah, so the more you were on it,
the worse you did. And those studies are quite powerful,
(16:14):
and there's been quite a few big studies, one involving
thirty five thousand people from Stanford and they just measured,
you know, how's your wellbeing the internal Facebook and Instagram,
just those two apps you can keep using your phone,
and their well being went up. So those kind of
withdrawal studies and those dose response studies make you think, Okay,
mental health is complicated, but this thing is really kind
(16:37):
of good.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But the evidence is there that social media is harmful?
Is there a way in which social I mean, that's funny.
I don't personally use social media much at all. No, no,
but there was a time when you'd use it because
of the other work I was doing with promoting things.
And I find I don't know why. It's because I'm
reading more and so and I'm learning a language and
(17:00):
so I just don't have time for it. And it
is funny just even as a grown up who's been
around I have a lot more than kids that I
just feel less cluttered because there's not that noise. In fact,
now I go on and I go, oh god, I've
got those stupid feeds. Switch that off. But you know
that's I guess it ties into the question of it's
(17:20):
one thing to talk about talk about banning it, but
you know, it's like anything. If you ban if you
stop someone from accessing something they're addicted to, sometimes they
want it more. What's the what's There's got to be
something about You've got to fill that gap, don't you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And I do really feel and worry about those parents
and kids who have just got really used to that.
And we've all seen those kind of scenes in a
restaurant where the family's out great having dinner, they're all
on a device, and I think that that's going to
be hard to undo that kind of normalized behavior. And
I think with the legislative change, it's really about this
(17:58):
kind of generational norms, Like if we can change that
for the next generation, that will be really powerful. But
I feel really worried about those digitally dependent kids who
are kind of in the heat of it.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And how do we distinguish or do we distinguish between Oh,
actually tell you what, God, I could have just cared
on chatting. We've got to take a moment. I'll come back,
We're going to regroup. I've got a few more questions
to dig into. But if you are a parent or
a child. Actually, you're curious, and I think a lot
of parents are. Maniche and I are going to continue
(18:32):
chatting about this, but if you want to, if you've
got any questions or thoughts on this, we'd love you
to join the conversation on eight hundred and eighty ten
to eighty. And if you don't, don't worry. I've got
truckloads to dig into with Manisha about this. This is
the weekend collective with the Parents Squad. It is twenty
five past five news Talk said b. This is the
Parent Squad. My guest is doctor Manish Dva. He's host
co host with Matilda Green of the One Young Mind
(18:55):
podcast and we're talking about child's safety in the world
of social media and what we need to do with
it now. Meniche, you were talking about the you know,
the studies that show that the social media apps, in
particular the Instagram and the Instagram and Facebook, you know,
you get off them and you know you hit in
a better direction, and when you're on them, the wellness
(19:17):
index just keeps progressively getting worse. I think would be
my summing up of it. And that's too clumsy.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah, No, I think that's there's probably some nuance there,
but I think that if you had to put it
in a nutshell or a one sentencing and it might
seem like I'm picking on meta, which I don't mind doing.
But there I mean talking with Tyras, she came through
the snapchat tumblr generation, as she called it. Now there's
some wild stuff out there, there's some really wild stuff
(19:44):
out there.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, I guess this is the thing. When Australia announced
its ban, it included YouTube, which I thought was an
interesting one and problematic in a way because I watch
YouTube for news and for interesting. Half of my stuff
I'm getting a you know, I'm getting a a Kimodo
(20:05):
dragon consuming a goat or something. But the wildlife stuff,
and to me, there's a lot of educational stuff. There
are Attenborough stuff and things on YouTube. What is what
are the harmful? Because kids you can't separate devices from kids.
So where are we what are we focusing on when
(20:26):
we're talking about the harmful social media? And where do
we draw the line? And how do we draw the line?
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Drawing lines? Yeah, all reasons you might think, well, let's
not do something.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
No no, no, no, no, no idea. It's just for
parents who want to say you're not having this, No,
you're not having that, all that, all that, all that,
and this is is this why it's important for the
state to play a role with this? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Absolutely, And I think most people we just want to
see progress and we're not hoping for perfection. We won't
get perfection, but we need progress. And I think what
I can't speak for what they've done in Australia, but
YouTube is just such a big platform. So when you
look at the numbers, there's just heaps of harm head there,
and percentage wise, it's probably not as bad as TikTok
(21:08):
and snapchat and a few others, but it's just such
a big it's just such a big platform.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Actually. Also, I think I worked out an answer for
myself on that one, because if they said that that
was included and I wanted to show my clips and
my kids a clip of something educational, I can still
do that. It's just that they can't go they can't
you know, they can't fish around themselves.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
And if we're diving into the weeds a bit with
YouTube and the differences of the platform, I want to
know how you search that. Actually that usually tells a
lot about someone eating.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I mentioned that as a joke because I watched was
watching a an at Andborough thing and the killer whales
hunting seals, and because it was the killer whales hunting
seals by you know, creating the wave and breaking up
the icebergs, which is quite ingenious. At some stage, just
had a picture of a Kimodo dragon. I thought, what's
that thing? I clicked on it.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, there you go twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I've seen animals hunting animal.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely life, Yeah exactly, And so I think,
I mean YouTube one of the most dangerous things for
a lot of kids is a lot of that messaging
by randos, and a lot of that doesn't really happen
on YouTube. You can sort of do it, but you can't.
You don't really use YouTube for that. No, I don't
(22:25):
know if you've seend messages on YouTube. It's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I mean, I had a clip that got a few
million responses for something, and I did get curious on
how many likes it got, but it was ninety nine
point nine percent loving it. Now everyone's curious what that
clip was. But I won't share it with you right
now because that's not the topic. But yeah, I it's
the is it the is it the seeking of feedback
and likes and popularity? That is the real Where's the
(22:52):
damage happened with the social media?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Well, I mean it's multifold with social media, certainly the
random messaging which a lot of the platforms really encourage.
And once again to reference your lovely producer Tire, we're
talking about I talk with a lot of people and
they'll have one experience on Snapchat. Let's talk about Snapchat.
And in Snapchat you can do a whole lot of
stuff that every parent's probably going to be a bit
a ghast if their kids on Snapchat. Right now, you
(23:16):
can turn on a map view and everyone can see
you here right now, and you don't know who these
people are, but they can see you're there. And so
my sister in law was with a school trip. She's
a teacher in Gold Coast, and they had their platform on.
Next thing, you know, there's a huge brawl because oh,
people know where you are. People know where you are are,
they're from New Zealand. Maybe some messages go around. I
met a young person in ale in Fonger Pray. She's
(23:39):
been living pretty rough. Obviously, won't go into the clinical detail.
I said, how does it all work? I just turn
on Snapchat matview, and she's a young person, she's very young,
and she just gets this full screenshot of all the
menu and these are drug items that just get sent
to her unprompted, and this will continuously happens. Turn on
(24:00):
this app.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Okay, so we don't want Snapchat. Actually it's not funny
because I don't know enough about it. And my kids
were saying, oh, can I get Snapchat Dad? And I didn't.
I just said no. But I didn't say no for
that reason. I just said no, because no, you don't
need Snapchat. I didn't think of anything serious. I didn't
think of a I didn't know anything about the potential
what you've just described. I just thought of thought, No,
(24:23):
that's a social media thing where you want likes and
all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Now, yeah, I wish it was just wanting lakes, but
it's just such a fast moving space that it's really
there's a lot of things happening there. The other thing
with snapshet is that disappearing messages, and so that's just
baked in to the.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
You know, actually this is slightly off, but it's sort
of on I'm on a fitness app called Strava, which
is for tracking bikes.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Everyone's Facebook Strava, but I got.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
A message from he's actually a farmer in Cambridge who said, look.
He said, look, because you're on the radio, can I
make a suggestion that you hide your location of where
you start and end your rides, because otherwise you're telling
everyone where you live. And I thought, and so I've
passed it on to a friend of mine whose daughter's
on it. She's an athlete, and I said, you might
(25:14):
want to get her to do that as well, because
there's another example and something that's seemingly harmless. It's a
piece of technology, but you can if you don't take
the right steps. People know where you.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Live absolutely and it can go into really unintended places.
And like your Kimodo dragon story, a lot of kids
are You're curious, so they click on something and then
they go, okay, I'll click on the next thing, because
you know, that round of the casino seemed pretty good,
that was pretty interesting. And a lot of journalists actually
(25:45):
have done this experiment, particularly with Instagram and Snapchat, where
they just sign up as a thirteen year old or
a twelve year old girl and they will say I
like kittens, and they'll get kidden videos, but then they
eventually the platform needs them to stay on. So what
keeps you on is seeing someone in distress or something
you can't really look away from. Yeah, And it's really
(26:06):
unfortunate because that is what we've got, this human nature,
like we don't want to look away from that stuff,
and they want to keep your eyeballs on that screen
for the maximum amount of time.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Do you reckon mata this lawsuit? Ohly they are that
they manipulate the algorithms to enhance addictiveness. What's your reckons
on that?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
I think the internal leaked memo that was part of
the evidence was this engineered addiction. That's the kind of
parlance they've used. And so I guess it's more illegal
battle in the States, but it will be quite impactful potentially,
because I think there's over two thousand other lawsuits which
are kind of watching this lawsuit to see what happens.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
And so.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
I don't understand the American legal system. But it's really
good they've got the CEOs to take the stand because
the last time we really saw the CEO those of
these big tech companies, particularly the one for Meta was
when he did the Senate hearings and one of the
kind of reveals was all of these tech companies, they
don't let their own kids near this stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Well, have they actually asked him that under oath? That
has that come up about? Because I had heard, you know,
you just hear things, and maybe it's reported that he
doesn't let his own kids have a device at home,
and come up in this trial'd be the first question,
wouldn't It's like, do you let your own children.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Have absolutely And that's the question that comes up to
me in my chlinical work all the time. Sometimes we
will have something quite complicated or something quite serious, and
family members they will digest all that, but they'll say,
what would you do if as your kid?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
You know?
Speaker 4 (27:45):
And I think that's on a parent level.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Here's okay, No, I'm going to take the break again
and we'll come back because it's too easy to let
time slip by. So we will be back in just
a minute. Because I want to dig into, you know,
the role of the state versus parents and how we
get on top of this, because if the state don't
legislate for it, then parents need to be making these decisions.
So we'll get into that, and just to take my
(28:10):
guest is doctor Meniche Diva. He is co host of
the One Young Mind podcast with Matilda Green. He's a pediatrician.
We're talking about the serious harm that the evidence is
settled that will that social media causes to our children
and what do we do about it. I eight one
hundred and eighty ten eighty. If you want to join
the conversation, we'll be back in a moment. Hews talks
to be Yes. Indeed, Meniche Diva, doctor Meniche Diva, pediatrician,
(28:32):
co host of the One Young podcast, is with us
talking about the harm of social media. Maniche, So, you know,
one of the things that people say is that you know,
this is just parents, they just need to make a decision.
And I think usually that's from someone who doesn't really
understand how insidious social media is. And it's I'm all
(28:56):
for having the It's like saying it's up to parents
not to let the kids access alcohol. Well, we do
have a laura around that as well, which supports us
and having the law to back up you know that
something is bad for our kids is actually quite a
useful parental tool, Like why can't I do that, dad,
because it's against the law. So what's your take on
(29:18):
the role of the state versus the role of parents.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
I think you have got it in a nutshell. I mean,
if you tell a kid, oh, you can't go on
this because they said so, and oh you can't go
on this, and it's actually against the law, it's completely different.
And talking about this with many different people now, I
do find the conversation is quite different from people who
don't have kids.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And or who have had their kids and they've moved on.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
And they have moved on or something. But it's just
a different conversation. And I've had that conversation many times now.
And you do meet other voices who are sort of
that free speech absolutist, But usually you say, why we're
talking about kids, and the usually go, oh, yeah, that's
kind of different. You know, I don't have the right
to send my you know, awful image to a twelve
(30:05):
year old. That free speech doesn't work that way around.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Okay, what should parents be aware of when it comes
to social media use? Because at the moment it's not criminal.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
It's not criminal.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Children have access to various social media depending on at
least they can't access to school. Bravo, something that seemed
like such a sort of mild piece of legislation. I
went not allowed but not going to allow devices bloody brilliant.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Bradly brilliant. I mean, if we could double click this
because I just want to give flowers to the government
because I know it didn't get picked up by the media,
but the research has come in for phone free schools
in New Zealand, and I know there's a debate and
probably on this radio station about phonics or room sizes
or too many Maori words or not enough to round
(30:53):
Mari words. This was just such an overwhelming improvement in
kids learning, behavior, anxiety, distress, and it disproportionately affected in
the lowest social economic bands. Pacific did the best out
of this. Now it seems like we've got a pretty good,
cost attractive thing we can do and that we could
(31:13):
actually roll out a bit further. But it didn't really
get the traction I think it deserves.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Is that because it's parties, you know, because the one
government brought it in and the others didn't, and so
they never want to give credit because it does feel that,
you know, we do spend a lot of time arguing
about these trivial sort of things about when we introduced
to Rao and things like that, and and here's this
massive win man and we're going, oh, yeah, it's good news,
by the way, and then we move on it's massive.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I know, I don't have the brain. Why is that happening? Make?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Make it?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Can this radio station wet that on? Blast?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Okay? So what text? What are the worst types of
social media? Hmm?
Speaker 4 (31:54):
I'd be interested because one of my thought you were
going to tell us, Yeah, well, all I can do
is because I talk with a lot of kids, you know,
and I'm constantly it is a really fast evolving, changing landscape.
But we know there's some really bad stuff on Snapchat.
We know this, and for reasons, that's sort of baked
(32:15):
into the platform. There's some really bad stuff on TikTok,
and this is just one of these other surreal moments. So, oh,
guess where TikTok isn't banned China? Why's that?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Well it's a rhetorical question.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
It's a rhetorical question. And so the originators of the
app have a completely different version. They're like, then we're
never going to allow this for a young people it's
also banned in India.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So it's banned in China.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Yeah, they have a different one and it's a completely
different It's you know, from what I understand, this is
the thing.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Okay, I'm a parent. I'm listening and my kids will say, oh,
can I have TikTok?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Dad?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Got there some funny videos? And they'll show us some
harmless stuff. How does a parent answer that to their
kids when their kids are like, well, it's just this
video of this cat doing somersaults or these people playing around,
or cute kitten moments, And how do I, as a
parent answer that to my child?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Well, our kids are similar ages, and it's hard to
be really specific and general at the same time. You know,
every culture home is different. But one thing for eleven
year old who I won't name because she'll kill me,
but we have you know, if they're watching something, it
has to be on the TV. Yeah, and me and
(33:27):
my wife are probably that generation. We remember watching stuff
on the TV.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
See. That's a tough one because in a way, because
this is where device is, my kids are like, well,
you're on your phone. Dad. It's like, well, I'm actually reading.
Do you want to see what I'm reading right now,
I'm reading the New Zealand Herald and I'm reading something
an article I'm read, so it's like my office as well.
And that's a tough one because it is a bit
of like, well, well, I just say to them, if
(33:52):
you want to spend your time reading the news, you're
welcome in a way. But then again you'd say no,
they're on a device anyway, So I mean, where do
we balance devices because devices are part of their lives.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
I can see your face contorting on the.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I'm catching my myself and some sort of hypocrisy.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
I don't know, yeah, but I think that's a real thing,
and I think I don't I'm sort of like want
to play the kids side, Like, you know, you reading
the Herald is really you know, you're probably getting a
dopamine hit out of that video.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
It's the newspaper, but it's on a screen.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've each got a thing, and
so I think parents can have a real opportunity here
to just check their own behavior and role model. And
it's a conversation for us all one of those things
about you know, this big report from phone free schools,
one of the little caveats where it didn't seem to
work so well was drum roll, it was the parents
(34:49):
messaging the kids during school time.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, which I think many parents probably have had might
have done, because they've like, oh, by the way, you've
got a dental appointment I forgot to tell you about
after school.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yep. And I've heard much more different ones that kids
tell me, Oh yeah, my parents messaged me this.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh okay. I mean, it's just why again, it plays
into the whole thing of there has to be a
law that the governments have got to get on board because,
for instance, I would say to a fifteen year older,
don't want you're drinking alcohol? Oh, but I've seen you
have a glass of wine, you know, on the weekend. Dad,
(35:26):
It's like and my answer is like, yes, I'm a
grown up and it's legal and it's not for you,
and it's quite useful to have that, although they also
know that alcohol is not great anyway. But I mean,
is there is that part of the reason that the
state legislating for this stuff is important.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Well, I'd probably say it's really important the government intervenes
the state legislature because this is really going to support parents.
What parents want to do. This is actually supportive for parents.
This is not like a kind of balance of like, oh,
we're trading off one for the other. Parents really want
this and they're crying out for help. Now, the social
media companies are going to firmly put pre sure on
(36:05):
the argument that this is a parenting issue because they
know it's really hard and it's not working.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
And what's your as I mean, actually, do you have
anything further to say to that? To those arguments, then
we'll get people who saying, look, it's just lousy parents.
They need to toughen up and tell their kids know.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Yeah, exactly, And like before, it's I've had those conversations.
It's usually people who haven't got kids in this kind
of zone. And you know, if you're enough, everyone's got opinion,
and you know, I don't want to discredit that, but
it is different.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
No, you do want to discredit it. Should even know
what you mean is I want to be polite, but
you do what you do need to discredit it because
the evidence is in, isn't it It's harmful, don't let
your kids on social media?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
And just that bit about what can you do about it?
That that thing of just saying, well, a parent can
sort this out. That's not the lived experience of what
we know is happening. It is really difficult. These devices
have incredible technology psychology. Bing gets your attention, they have
incredible ways they work on your mind. And I mean
(37:11):
if you do look at a casino and you see
people playing Pokey's, it doesn't look that different from this
infinite scroll machine.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Ping ping ping. Hey, look maniche we're gonna have to
get you back, aren't we, Because believe it or not,
we've we've we've run our course with the time. Wise
you're happy to come back and have a chat again sometime.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, I don't want to get in trouble with your producer.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I always like people, you know, it's all nothing like
putting a bit of pressure on you on air. Anyway, Hey,
thank you so much for thanks so much for coming
on and I had people. I imagine there'll be a
lot of parents have got a lot out of that.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
So oh, thanks so much and go fourth parents. We
can do this.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Good on you. Hey, that is doctor Manish Steva. Don't
forget you can listen to any of I would recommend
if you've just joined the conversation late go back and
have a listen right from the start any of our
hours of course on iHeartRadio and News Talk set be
dot curted and said we're going to wrap sport in
just a moment with Kobe Murti. It's just gone ten
minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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