April 18, 2026 • 37 mins
You always hear stories about the different ways a person's childhood has had an ongoing impact throughout their life.
There are some horrible stories out there, but it could even just be the way your parents would cook growing up, or how the way they would react to you relaxing results in habits that follow you into adulthood.
So at the end of the day, are we all doomed to mess up our children in one way or another?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, so, welcome back to the Weekend Collective or welcome
in if you have just joined us. This is the
Parents Squad. We want Your Cause on eight hundred and
eighty ten and eighty and text nine to nine two.
Now just before I introduce my guest, because we have
a new guest on the show, which we're always excited about.
But what we're going to explore is well, themes around
trying to be the perfect parent a little bit. And
(00:57):
you always heard stories about how, you know, the different
ways a person's childhood has had an ongoing impact throughout
their life. I think it's every fear that appears has
It's like, is it a fear every parent has? Certainly
something that's on your mind that you don't want to
do that sort of thing or be that parent which
might have a negative ongoing effect on your child. And
(01:18):
of course, look, there are all sorts of stories out
there from parents overreacting to what some of us might
have felt as kids were trifling matters, to well them
not reacting to anything at all. I know, if someone
who never touched alcohol because of the way they saw
their parents abuse it. Whether that was something you describe
as a positive outcome, probably, I guess. But recently we've
(01:42):
heard of a story about a woman who was in
therapy because their parents had such a loving and successful relationship,
she felt she would never be able to find someone
who could live up to that for herself. That sounds
like a no win scenario to be honest. But look,
at the end of the day, Look, we want to
do the right thing. We don't want to mess our
kids up. But is it sort of just part of
the thing that we all end up having our own
(02:04):
little because of things that happened in our childhood and
that's just life. Are we too hung up on being
perfect parents these days and were worried about making those
fundamental mistakes which are going to ruin our children forever?
I remember someone saying, I can't remember who it was,
actually that it's amazing how your kids can turn out
okay despite your best efforts to ruin them. And that
(02:26):
was a lighthearted We have one parent describing it to
me anyway, we want your calls. One note you think
on O eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two nine two and joining me is Mariam Micaleb.
She's a public health fellow at the University of Canterbury
and she's with me now, Miriam high Well, good a calder,
how are you? I'm good. Thanks. I mean that last
thing I said, I wish I could remember who said
(02:47):
it when I was it might have been the early
days of being a dad, and it says, look, you know,
it's amazing how maybe it was their kids. It's amazing
how my kids have turned out. Okay, given what a
useless mum or dad we were. I mean, what's your
take on this.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I've been working with families for more than thirty years
at this point, and I really believe that I've never
once met a parent who kind of cradles their newborn
baby in their arm and thinks, oh, I can't wait
to fluff this up. Like everybody's doing their best with
the resources they've got. And you know what you were
talking about in your intro, Tim, And can I just
(03:27):
say so. My nickname is Mim, and I'm sometimes known
as doctor Mim. And I love when I meet a Tim,
because all right, we take it on the road. It's
Tim and Mim.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Do I call you now?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
There's up to you but I feel like if we
got a gym involved, it would be all on.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
But we do have he's an hoster, and there you go, knowing.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Anyway we'll take it on the road. So serious and
all serious, no seriousness, though I've completely derailed myself. Now
there is a I think there's always been pressure on
parents to have this whole, this myth of the perfect parent.
Like I think a lot of us fall under the
spell of this. We want to do the best that
can and really caring about something you can put a
(04:09):
lot of pressure on yourself. And the weird bit about
it is is that the more you put that pressure
on yourself, the less available you actually are to be
a really great parent in the here and now.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Like, if I've got.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
A notion of what a perfect parent looks like, then
maybe that means that I bring with it this idea
of what a perfect kid would be and guess what,
none of them are. We get what we get, and
it's different day by day. What kind of a you know,
what kind of parent you need to be to respond
to how hungry is everybody is at school holidays or not?
(04:43):
What kind of a night's sleep did everybody had? And
if you've got to be kind of on your toes
and the big mess of parenthood that's only more stressful
if you're trying to do it with this fake idea
of this notion of the perfect parent. So Karen O'Neill,
who's the knowledge manager at the Brainwave Trust, you've got them.
(05:03):
I'm sure she has the really great line that she uses.
She says, the perfect the idea of a perfect mother
is kind of like the Easter bunny. You know. That's
it's just it's made up in in somebody's mind and
it's and it's really it's not helpful because.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I'm trying to think. I was trying to remember just
myself about worrying about whether I be a good parent,
and I think what you're doing is you're doing your best.
And I try not to sweat the small stuff, to
be honest. But I do know parents who you know
who are worried about may be well, the perfectionist parent
(05:42):
who you know who wants to pick up on every
mistake they're there child makes and things. And I'm not
sure if it's because they want to be the perfect
the perfect parent anyway, but I mean, is it here's
a question, is it better to be slightly more hands
off than hands on, would be one quick question? Or
was that just the style?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, and look, and I'm not being mischievous when I
say this, but every question that you ask me, I'm
going to start with, well, it depends because it does
depend on what how old, if a child are we
talking about? What is it that you're choosing to sort
of ignore. I think there's a lot to be said
for don't sweat the small stuff, and I think there's
a lot to be said for kind of catch your
(06:20):
kids when they're good, and if they're if their behavior
is not exactly what you want to see, but it's
not hurting anybody or it's not harming property, can you
just turn away for a wee minute? You know. It's
that kind of the choose your battle sort of notion.
And I think the other bit that goes with that
is being brave enough to kind of march to the
beat of your family's own drum, Like you know what
(06:42):
the values are that you value in your house, and
what what kind of your family said of morals, and
you know, whether you're a family who's fine with climbing
on the couch or not. That's up to you, right,
You know that that's up to you. That's your family,
so you get to decide what good enough kind of
looks like in your house. And and truly, tim that's
(07:04):
the and to to getting too hung up on parent
perfect the idea, the myth of perfect parenting is realizing
that what our kids actually need from us is what's
known as good enough parenting. And if we can all
strive to be good enough, well, guess what, that's actually
better than perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Anyway, what's well, gosh, I'm just trying to make sure
the questions I aren't asked, aren't to ask, aren't too loaded.
But you did say, what's good enough? What's not good enough?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, well, not good enough would be neglect, it would
be abuse, it would be you know, hunger, are not
good enough would be a lack of kind of loving
relationships anywhere. So that's not to say that if you're
not going through if you're a parent and you're going
through a difficult patch and you're struggling to kind of
(07:56):
be there for your kids in the way that you
really want to, what we really hope is that you've
got other really loving adults in that kid's life who
can step in and be your backup and support. Things
are hard for families. Things are really hard for families
without stacking on top of it a pressure to be
you know, for this myth of perfection, I think that
(08:17):
it's always been around. There's always been a sort of
unhelpful sort of element of what I would call competitive parenting.
You know, whose babies rolled over the fastest, as if
that makes a difference in that you know which kid
won the cross country. You know, like, come on, guys,
how about are we a community and do we care
about each other's kids or are we in competition? And
(08:39):
I don't think social media helps with that at all.
That people can feel really sort of why social media
is garrison.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I hate social media for parenting. I don't know why,
because it's a bit like cooking. You know, the people
have well this is a bad example, but you know,
no one who's got an Internet cooking channel is going
to put up the omelet that they burned and ruined.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
The mess in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
In fact, if I was going to do a cooking channel,
I would deliberately show whatts and all, because I think
there would be the point of difference because everyone else
is so bliming perfect like that with parenting is everyone's.
And I went to this wonderful thing the other day
with my child and we did this together. It was
all wonderful. And I don't know, just the keeping up
with the jones Is on steroids, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I think it's a very good descriptive for it. In fact,
it's funny. Just just today I had a neighbor talking
about this topic and using that very phrase about keeping
up with the Joneses, which is why I guess so
I keep coming back to that idea of like, you've
got to figure out what your family's values are and
what success looks like in your house. And it might
not be everybody in matching outfits for a Christmas card photo,
(09:50):
you know what I mean. It might be like, actually,
we all got our teeth brushed every morning before school,
and that's victory. But to your point, that's not what
we sort of post about on social media, is it.
It's not like, yay, victory found all the socks, you know,
old ones and this week you know, I mean, really
that's what you should be posting about on social media,
(10:12):
but people don't. It's the it's the shiny moments, you know,
And how did someone put it. It's it's it's looking
at someone's highlights reel, and then in your brain you're
running your own sort of blueber reel, which is not helpful.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I can't remember. It might have been one of
the guests on my show who said this, which I liked,
the idea of I'm not sure whether. I'm not sure
how much I subscribe to the idea of myself, because
I literally don't know. But he or she said that,
you know, a lot of what your child is going
to end up like is locked in from the moment
(10:49):
they're they're conceived or born, or and so just enjoy
getting to know them. But that implies to me, well,
it tells it. It sort of says suggest to me
that you can't really influence their personalities too much, whatever
they are. And for instance, I've got two girls, and
(11:10):
I don't talk about them too much on the show,
but I can definitely see one of them who has
a huge number of my traits on just to do
with keeping tidy or to doing jobs or procrastinating or whatever,
and I literally look and go, oh my goodness. I
was like that when I was thirteen or fourteen, it's like,
(11:32):
can you do this such and such? Look, I'll do
that in just a moment. I've just got to quickly
go to the loo. And I was thinking, oh my god,
I used to do that as well, and I used
to do it sincerely. But I see facets of her
that is totally locked in me, and other facets of
my daughter which is very heavily influenced by my wife's personality.
(11:52):
And is that something that's just locked in? Therefore, hands
off the controls, just let them fly themselves up to
a point.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, Well, you've had on so I've got so much
to say about it. I've had on about six really,
I just hope I can write you put on about
six really good things. One is the age old debate
about talking about child child development is it nature or nurture?
And what we now know, of course, is that it's
very much both. That nature is what you're talking about
(12:22):
in kind of in terms of sort of genetic potential,
and it's the genetic information that we're inheriting from our parents.
But in terms of the nurture, well, some of those
genes are switched on from birth. Those are what we
would call template genetics, But there's other genes within our
code which are called transcription genetics, like they are waiting
(12:43):
from a story from the environment in order to decide
what kind of switch on or switch off. So that
speaks to that whole idea of those first thousand days,
and how absolutely about early relationships, About how much of
this little brain did I need to wire up in
(13:04):
respects to the experiences of my first three years? Was
I in a house, Was I where I was read
to all the time and my questions were answered? Was
I in a house where people lit up, you know,
they were happy to see me when I entered a room.
Or was I in a house where the adults had
no time because they were all working three jobs and
(13:25):
maybe depressed, or maybe on drugs, or maybe didn't know
how to read themselves, or you know, like whatever it
is of the environment that I've grown up And the
key and most important thing for supporting optimal child development
always being relationships that are warm and kind and loving
and consistent. Relationship is the ultimate gift that we can
(13:50):
give to our kids.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So what is the nature then? What's what are the
nature bits?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
That are the nature bits? Well that I mean, that's
that's some of that's as simple as like how tall
are you going to be?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You know, my daughter's saying, I'm going to do the
dishes later, dad. Is that something something she's learned from me?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I spect she's heard that mother.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No, okay, my wife's not listening that war actually, But
I mean, these are the things that we do worry about,
like which what are the bits that are baked in
that I can relax about, and what are the bits
where I can really drop the ball. Because you've mentioned
the thousand days, first thousand days, first three years, and
(14:34):
we mean if you cock up the first three years,
is there any coming back from it? Is the other one?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Sure? I mean, change is always possible. And the brain
has has other phases of sort of particularly plastic activity,
like plastic meaning I always think that's quite sounds quite weird,
but it is what the term for alliable, meaning it's changeable,
malleable totally, and there's a phase of that at a
big burst in adolescence. And it is also you know,
(15:03):
change is always possible. One a really great I think
one of the really important messages both in terms of
brain development, which I didn't mean to talking about what
I get excited. So here we are. But also in
terms of the topic of good enough parenting that we
were talking about before, you know, the idea of repair,
like that rupture can happen, that mistakes happen, that arguments happen,
(15:27):
that miscommunications happen, and sometimes sometimes things get messed up.
But that by knowing how to say a lot honey,
we got off sides, there can we right like and
that can that can be in ways big and small.
So if you are a parent who got to suddenly
(15:47):
realize you've got this four year old and you're thinking, shit,
is I've never actually sat down and read a book
with this kid, It's not too late. It's absolutely not
too late. It's if we can we harness the benefit
of those first thousand days to set up the sort
of patterns that we really want to see. If we
haven't done that, we don't despair. Change is always possible,
(16:08):
it just might not be quite so straightforward.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Gosh, I've written down a truckload of things I want
to talk to you about, but we need to take
a moment. We're we're with Miriam m how do we
mim sorry, mim Michayla. Fine, Yeah, I know, I'm going
to try and go with mim Tim anyway, we would
love your cause if you've got any questions about, you know,
if you're a parent who's got a little bit of
anxiety about wondering how you can have the best impact
(16:36):
on your children, or if there's something you're worried about
to do with their development or something we'd love to
hear from you on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
And you might even just have had a rule of
thumb when you became a parent about the best way
to go about that. I was going to say the
business of being a parent. I hate that expression, just
the you know, being a parent. We'll be back in
just a moment. It is twenty four past five. This
(16:56):
is News Talk z B News Talk said B Welcome
back to the show. My guest is doctor Miriam otherwise
known as Michaeleb. She's public health fellow at the Universe said.
If Canniby talking about are parents too hung up on
being perfect? And what are the basics for just you know,
trying to avoid cocking your kids up too much. By
the way, if you have particular rules, I don't mean rules,
(17:18):
I'm censoring myself all the time. But do you have
any particular guidance if you have a parent who's feel
you've learned a few things through parenting, there are a
few basic rules that you would pass on to another parent.
Give us a call on I eight hundred eighty ten eighty,
because the question is, I mean, maybe we're all bound
in some way to mess our kids up in some way,
but you know what do you reckon? I eight hundred
(17:40):
eighty ten eighty. Actually, Miriam, I forgot to ask you
to We normally with a new guest, we normally get
to know you a little bit, and I completely forgot. Well,
we got just quiz you about how did you get
involved with your interested in parenting and what you do
at the University of Canterbury.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah. So I have always been really interested in child
development and I kind of fell in love with baby.
I just haven't known at a time that I wasn't
just really into hanging out with babies. I think they're fascinating.
I love to watch them. I think that they you know,
you can literally you can kind of see them learning
(18:17):
day by day, week by week. I think they're great, right,
And so I trained as an early childhood teacher originally,
and I worked with little kids straight out of high school.
And so I was twenty one when I graduated the
same year as the New Zealand early childhood curriculum. That's
that's a little clue anyway, and from there kind of
(18:39):
got into parenting. Well what happened, all right? So my
husband was born in the great state of Tennessee, and
I went to live there, and I had this fantastic
job and learned it was right at the turn of
the century when we were suddenly learning all of this
information about brain development, and I kind of naively thought, oh, well,
(19:00):
here we go. We've got cellular evidence about how incredibly
important babies are, and how what I've been observing all
these years of the rapid rate of development for infancy
is now true and observable on a cellular level. This
will change everything. This is going to mean that we
fund maternal health care really really well, and we support
(19:20):
mothers and babies. And we've won those first thousand days
to make sure that everybody gets to me statelogically right,
and guess what time it hasn't happened. But so, yeah,
when I came back to New Zealand, I got involved
with the brain Wave of Trust, whose mission is about
sharing information about development of the brain, and that was
(19:41):
really great work, kind of at the beginning of the century.
And then I started having my own family, which kind
of slowed things down and interrupted things. I went back
to studying because I had a question that needed answering
and I couldn't find the answer. So I became kind
of a reluctant academic in my forties, went back and
did a research master's degree.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Kind of driven. I'm thinking, as well.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
If you've you know, yeah, well here's the thing. What
I knowing is what I knew about development of the
brain and attachment theory and the importance of early relationships.
I started observing the parents on smartphones and I started
really having some questions, thinking this is not going to
(20:24):
be good for child development. Like I now know that
what I feel is called pre TSD, where it's like
pre traumatic stress disorder, because I can see this meteorite
moving towards Earth, which is the shape like a smartphone,
and it's interfering with infant development in ways that big
and swell.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, that's actually I want you to continue that story,
but you've I mean you're hitting us something we are
hitting really hard on this show because it seems that
one of the things that we can at least be
pleased with is we've stopped at you know, we are
having these conversations, we're talking about the social media bands, and.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We're pleased with having these conversations.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
We've got phones out of got phones out of of
kids hands at school, and I'm thinking one rule we
could come up with from this hour is don't put
your kid, at your infant in front of a device
would be probably a first rule generally speaking. What we're
a but I don't want to take your flow either
(21:23):
on I did interruct.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Sorry, no worries. I definitely think that that's that's part
of the broader conversation that we have to have, Timber,
because which you're you're sort of talking about kid's use
of devices, which is a really important conversation, and I'm
totally happy to go there. What all of my work
has concentrated on to this point has been in my research,
has been about parents' use of devices and especially during
(21:48):
infancy and toddlehood and what that's meaning, which is it's
connected not being present.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
In other words, that's this is.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
It and and there. It's one of the strongest predictors
of kids use. So it is related to what you're
talking about, but.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It's did that mean that you would keep your m okay?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
So yeah, when you were saying kind of what's the
rule we could make or whatever, what I would say
my urge, my encouragement would be that my worsh if
I had imagined down your own device, would amen that's it.
That's exactly it. So it's and my worsh would be
that family's at the stage of pregnancy, so before a
baby is born, families would sit down and make a
media plan, like how are we going to all manage
(22:31):
our devices when this baby comes? So it's not just mum,
and it's not just dead. It's granny's and it's big
siblings and it's everybody. Because if you think about it
a little bit, like people used to smoke around babies, right,
and people used to be chill about that, and there'd
be living rooms with smoke and babies in.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
My family doctor used to smoke right while he was examined.
It's take a path put that anyway.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Can you imagine? I had a principle at my primary
school anyway. But that's story. But look, I think that
there's a researcher called Dividi who describes smartphones as and
their social pollution. And so I think if you kind
of think about it like a social like, it's like smoking,
but it's for the relational now much rather than your lungs.
(23:19):
And so if the whole family, for example, families used
to smoke in living rooms and then they all decided,
do you know what we're going to If we're going
to smoke, we're going to do it outside. People did that.
That's something that we are capable of doing with our
devices as well. Make a plan. How are we going
to manage the devices around this little baby so that
we can prioritize face to face connection.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It's funny now you've saying this. I'm actually trying to
go through my head. I can't remember what we did,
but I do remember. Yeah, I just can't remember, but
I do remember my we were. We doated, and we
love to spend time with their kids, and I took
photos with the I can't remember what I did. I
(24:01):
have no yeah, I have no recollection. And now I'm worried.
But it was fifteen years ago. So maybe I just did.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Well. Things have changed a lot and fifteen years in
terms of our relationships with our phones, all of us.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, oh of course because something that's yeah, I don't
even know what was around for what do we do?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah? Yeah, I might not have been as obsessed with it. No, Yeah,
the smartphone was released in two thousand and seven, and I.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Can tell because the photos I've got of my kids
were not taken on my phone. That's how I know.
And now I remember we had a camera which we
took photos with. Because so I'm hoping that another time.
I'm hoping I wasn't dreadful. But I mean that would be.
I mean, if people were listening to this and thinking,
you know, I've got a child coming along, that would be,
(24:48):
by the sound of it, something you've think. You've got
to work out how we're going to handle our devices
so the child doesn't feel that something else is capturing
our attention.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Is that the gist, it's the gist, And it's not
about never using your phone never ever. It's just about
being purposeful about when you do use your phone. And
sometimes it's something as subtle as going to when I
need to use my phone, I'm going to say, oh,
excuse me, I just need to send a message, and
I'll say that to whoever's in the room, and that
includes babies and children, because then they get that little
(25:20):
queue of oh, mom's gone for a sec and she'll
be back. And then when I finished sending my message
and say okay, I'm done, and I put my phone
down and now I'm present again. But unfortunately, that's not
how most of us use our phones. And so the
real kind of I guess enemy if you like, is
actually the mindless scroll. It's just the infinite kind of
(25:40):
you know, zoned out sort of scrolling when other people
are around. That's the problem. It's the problem. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
See, I've yeah, I've had this question because I say,
I work in the media, and I my dad used
to read the paper. My dad was a great dad.
We used to do lots of things with him. You know
that he when Dad was reading the paper, he's reading
the paper. I read the paper on a device now.
And I've even you know, I've had this discussion with
my teenage girls who say, well, Dad, you're on your phone.
It's like, yeah, I'm not posting or liking something. I'll
(26:11):
show you the new sites I'm reading. Here's the BBC,
Here's CNN, here's the Herald, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
And I explain to them why I'm using it, but
I still feel I mean, are they explaining as losing
but they are put you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
It's I respect that because and it also taps into
something that turns up in the research, which is the
way that we do judge other people's phone use compared
to our own phone use. And I think that, I mean,
there is a difference between are you using your phone
to be creative and productive or are you using your
(26:47):
phone to just numb yourself or distract yourself from something
you don't want. You know, there's different ways. Not all
phone uses terrible, and not all times in places are
horrific and so on. But I mean, I think your
daughters do have a point when they say, look from
the other side of this, I can't tell what you're doing,
and you know you're watching the news. They don't know that,
(27:12):
and so you know, by telling them that makes it
makes some sense.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I do sort of narrate it. I'll sometimes say how
I'm reading the news right now? Girls, I mean, they
know when I'm doing duo lingo because I'm speaking in
a different language all the time. In fact, they probably
want me to shut up because it's piping up. But
I actually do make a point of telling them what
I'm doing. So that's probably I'm glad. That's a good instinct,
is it?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Or I think it's I think it's a good instinct
because it also draws a line between kind of well
it helps keep you honest as well, because I'm sure
if you were on the news sites for I don't know,
an hour and a half over breakfast, they'd have something
to say about it. But if it's you kind of
checking in with the headlines for I don't know, ten
to fifteen min there's different. It's all a continuum, isn't it.
(27:56):
No answers. It depends the answer to every question, is it.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Look, if I'm a if I'm an expecting expectant parent,
to me that the fact that you've just mentioned that
something to be I think that's a huge benefit to
actually have to just be aware that this is something
you need to you know, and it's not about their
screen time. It's about your attention for them, that's it.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
And so maybe it's a Maybe it's thinking about let's
try and keep our phones in the nappy bag and
we only get them out once babies asleep. Yeah, or
you know, like if you can not, I recognize not
everybody's kind of work situations allow for that, or you
might it's.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
At least asking yourself the question your streets ahead of
someone who just was mindlessly on their phone for hours
without thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
It is. It is about that thought being thoughtful. And
my research the kind of the catchphrase I used was
use it wisely, so sticker on the back of your phone,
use it wisely. So if I was to text a
friend as a new mum, if I was to send
a text to a friend and say, hey, can we
meet up for a coffee and go for a walk,
that's really wise use because that took me all of
(29:08):
thirty seconds. Excuse me, baby, I'm just going to send
this text. It took me all of thirty seconds to
send my message and it results in this wonderful face
to face, socially connected going for a walk, having a yarn.
You know, like, that's wise use of our smartphones sitting
and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and know
to your earlier point. Comparing my life to these people's beautiful,
(29:30):
shiny images on Instagram. That's not going to make anybody
feel better.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, I found actually just getting back into the habit
of reading books is a great way to get your
device down because it's far more interesting. But anyway, that's
just my little observation. Before we go to the break,
we are with Mary and Michaeleb, doctor Mary Michaeleb, and
we're talking about well parenting and we've covered a bit.
We've sort of honed in on the devices, which often
parenting talk does get to. But we've got a few
(29:58):
texts that have got a few questions from Mariam. We'll
come back with those in just a moment. You can
jump the que if you give us a call on
OED ten and eighty, but we'll be back in a tick.
It's twenty to six that we're with new guests on
the show. She is Mim and Michaeleb. She's a public
health fellow at University of Canniby talking about perfect parenting
among other things, and got some calls we're going to
take David.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Hello, Oh yeah, good afternoon, How are you good?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Thanks?
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Look we've got yeah, afternoon, we've got three boys. So
we were introduced as parents to devices through our school.
We had a year five student, well sorry, our oldest
child be introduced into the help classroom and as part
(30:45):
of that they needed a chromebook, so he was introduced
to a device quite early, probably earlier then we required,
well wanted him to have a device, so that was
sort of forced on us through the school and as
part of that, unfortunately no other two children below them
(31:08):
sort of got introduced to the device from there. So
so look, as parents, we were trying our best to
hold off as long as possible, but unfortunately, through the
school were introduced as a as a nine year old
to having a device. So consequently from there things have
(31:28):
gone from bad to worse. And yeah, sort of the
feeling we got through the child was that, oh, it's
my chromebook, I can do what I want. So it's
sort of it's sort of as a parent become quite
difficult to one restrict but also discipline or you know, ultimately,
if we didn't have that to begin with forced on us,
(31:50):
then we wouldn't have had the pressure I guess from there.
So look, in theory, things sound good, but practicality sort
of way, it doesn't always work as a parent.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Any thoughts on.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That, man, You know, Yeah, Look, I really feel for you, Dave.
And it's not you. This is not the first You're
not the first person I've heard this from that it
can feel like that decision has been maybe taken out
of your hands as a parent, and that you would
have liked to have sound by the sounds of things,
kept your boys device free a little longer, and that
that sort of that decision got taken out of your hands.
(32:26):
I really feel for you, and all I can I mean,
we've got we've got in New Zealand. I didn't realize
this until some colleagues from University of Auckland published a
paper about the way that we are using It was
in the New Zealand Medical Journal about the way that
we are using screens in schools in New Zealand. And
we really have just like galloped into it with a
(32:48):
hiss and a raw sort of more than even most
countries around the world. And it's the frustrating bit is
that we didn't need that. The companies the likes of
Google Classroom, you know, and the Google Chromebook and so on,
they didn't have to present the evidence showing how this
was going to make kids learning better. That it's just
(33:11):
been embraced at real pace. And so now if you
are a person who, for example, wants to reintroduce handwriting,
I can point to lots of studies showing the benefits
of doing that, But the burden of responsibility would be on,
you know, Davis, a parent to go on into his
classroom and go, excuse me, you know, I need you
to up end the way you do things, and that's
(33:33):
not an easy place anywhere.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, sort of going back a little bit on that, now,
aren't we trying to get back to more that, you know,
the handwriting and the you know, the micro sort of
physical skills that kids need as well as paper.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I really hope that the tide has tuned. I really
think that there are enough people kind of aware of
not just the social stuff. Like it's not just social media.
It is as you say, it's it's fine motor skills,
it's our spinal health, it's our eye health like that,
all sorts of things that are being compromised by the
(34:08):
way that we've just had this rapid uptake of device
Yet what Yeah, so my advice with Dave with his
three three wee boys. It's at home. I think that
you would need to and you and your lad thinks
that it's his chrome boxer. Therefore he gets to sort
of set the rules. It's like, unfortunately not some that's
(34:30):
my house, and I get to set the rules. And
and if that looks like like you know, in our house,
for example, there's just there's no devices in the bedrooms.
That's that not you know, not mum and dad either.
We don't have our phones in our in the bedrooms overnight.
We don't have devices at the table. That's that like.
So whatever the kind of the house rules are, I
(34:51):
guess it's again about getting out in front of it
with a family media plan, deciding. You might decide we
only have one device at a time in the living room,
so if the family's watching a movie, you're not. We're
not sitting on our devices as well. We're watching the
movie to get there, you know, so that your family
gets to decide what your how it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Okay, thank you for your call, David. Look everyone's caught.
We've had a bunch of calls suddenly, come of it.
We're running at a time. I've just got a quick
text here. This one says, I'm worried about my teenage
daughter not making the right choices with diet and exercise.
But I don't want to say something that's going to
give her a hang up, any thoughts. I mean, I mean,
(35:35):
I'm just trying to get through a few a text
or too, but that one stuck stuck out.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a big topic. That's
a really big topic.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
We need to say it for next time.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, that's a really big topic because there we know
that the way that I mean it is a big topic.
I'm scared to kind of open the lid on it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But tell you what, shall we park that for next time?
We'll make a move and we'll get into the teenage
because this is all about, you know, trying to avoid
doing things, and we don't. We've sort of probably a
bit shorter.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Time in that gay Yeah, I mean to that, Mama
would just say, I hear you, feel you, And it's hard.
It's hard work raising teenage girls to hold their heads up.
Same thing, much to the beat of your own drum,
you know, let her be staunchly herself, which is not
an easy thing and a world that tries to sort
of smush you into a certain suitain shape.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I'm going to make a note of that week because
because I did, I should have should have saved that
text for next time. Anyway. But hey, Miriam, thank you
so much for your time this afternoon, and I hope
we can. We're going to get you on again soon.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, that's my great pleasure. It's lovely to meet you, Tim,
and I just want all of your listeners are fantastic
Saturday and remind them that they are doing great parentings,
hard work and you're doing an awesome job if.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
They were to. Is there anywhere where they can follow?
Do you have a blog or anything that I do?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I have My website is under construction rather like rather
like an Natalie sent brain. Yes, but it'll be back.
I'll be back in the meantime. I mean, I'm all
over the place. I've written for lots of magazines and.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Okay, Miriam michaelab Hey, hey, thank you so much for
joining us this apener, and we'll look forward to next time.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Great to meet you. Take them here.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Okay, bye bye, We'll be back to wrap Sport in
just a moment. If you missed any of that hour,
by the way, you would their podcast after six slot.
You can be able to check that out. But what
Christopher Reeve's with us in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, so, welcome back to the Weekend Collective or welcome
in if you have just joined us. This is the
Parents Squad. We want Your Cause on eight hundred and
eighty ten and eighty and text nine to nine two.
Now just before I introduce my guest, because we have
a new guest on the show, which we're always excited about.
But what we're going to explore is well, themes around
trying to be the perfect parent a little bit. And
(00:57):
you always heard stories about how, you know, the different
ways a person's childhood has had an ongoing impact throughout
their life. I think it's every fear that appears has
It's like, is it a fear every parent has? Certainly
something that's on your mind that you don't want to
do that sort of thing or be that parent which
might have a negative ongoing effect on your child. And
(01:18):
of course, look, there are all sorts of stories out
there from parents overreacting to what some of us might
have felt as kids were trifling matters, to well them
not reacting to anything at all. I know, if someone
who never touched alcohol because of the way they saw
their parents abuse it. Whether that was something you describe
as a positive outcome, probably, I guess. But recently we've
(01:42):
heard of a story about a woman who was in
therapy because their parents had such a loving and successful relationship,
she felt she would never be able to find someone
who could live up to that for herself. That sounds
like a no win scenario to be honest. But look,
at the end of the day, Look, we want to
do the right thing. We don't want to mess our
kids up. But is it sort of just part of
the thing that we all end up having our own
(02:04):
little because of things that happened in our childhood and
that's just life. Are we too hung up on being
perfect parents these days and were worried about making those
fundamental mistakes which are going to ruin our children forever?
I remember someone saying, I can't remember who it was,
actually that it's amazing how your kids can turn out
okay despite your best efforts to ruin them. And that
(02:26):
was a lighthearted We have one parent describing it to
me anyway, we want your calls. One note you think
on O eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two nine two and joining me is Mariam Micaleb.
She's a public health fellow at the University of Canterbury
and she's with me now, Miriam high Well, good a calder,
how are you? I'm good. Thanks. I mean that last
thing I said, I wish I could remember who said
(02:47):
it when I was it might have been the early
days of being a dad, and it says, look, you know,
it's amazing how maybe it was their kids. It's amazing
how my kids have turned out. Okay, given what a
useless mum or dad we were. I mean, what's your
take on this.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I've been working with families for more than thirty years
at this point, and I really believe that I've never
once met a parent who kind of cradles their newborn
baby in their arm and thinks, oh, I can't wait
to fluff this up. Like everybody's doing their best with
the resources they've got. And you know what you were
talking about in your intro, Tim, And can I just
(03:27):
say so. My nickname is Mim, and I'm sometimes known
as doctor Mim. And I love when I meet a Tim,
because all right, we take it on the road. It's
Tim and Mim.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Do I call you now?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
There's up to you but I feel like if we
got a gym involved, it would be all on.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
But we do have he's an hoster, and there you go, knowing.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Anyway we'll take it on the road. So serious and
all serious, no seriousness, though I've completely derailed myself. Now
there is a I think there's always been pressure on
parents to have this whole, this myth of the perfect parent.
Like I think a lot of us fall under the
spell of this. We want to do the best that
can and really caring about something you can put a
(04:09):
lot of pressure on yourself. And the weird bit about
it is is that the more you put that pressure
on yourself, the less available you actually are to be
a really great parent in the here and now.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Like, if I've got.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
A notion of what a perfect parent looks like, then
maybe that means that I bring with it this idea
of what a perfect kid would be and guess what,
none of them are. We get what we get, and
it's different day by day. What kind of a you know,
what kind of parent you need to be to respond
to how hungry is everybody is at school holidays or not?
(04:43):
What kind of a night's sleep did everybody had? And
if you've got to be kind of on your toes
and the big mess of parenthood that's only more stressful
if you're trying to do it with this fake idea
of this notion of the perfect parent. So Karen O'Neill,
who's the knowledge manager at the Brainwave Trust, you've got them.
(05:03):
I'm sure she has the really great line that she uses.
She says, the perfect the idea of a perfect mother
is kind of like the Easter bunny. You know. That's
it's just it's made up in in somebody's mind and
it's and it's really it's not helpful because.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I'm trying to think. I was trying to remember just
myself about worrying about whether I be a good parent,
and I think what you're doing is you're doing your best.
And I try not to sweat the small stuff, to
be honest. But I do know parents who you know
who are worried about may be well, the perfectionist parent
(05:42):
who you know who wants to pick up on every
mistake they're there child makes and things. And I'm not
sure if it's because they want to be the perfect
the perfect parent anyway, but I mean, is it here's
a question, is it better to be slightly more hands
off than hands on, would be one quick question? Or
was that just the style?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, and look, and I'm not being mischievous when I
say this, but every question that you ask me, I'm
going to start with, well, it depends because it does
depend on what how old, if a child are we
talking about? What is it that you're choosing to sort
of ignore. I think there's a lot to be said
for don't sweat the small stuff, and I think there's
a lot to be said for kind of catch your
(06:20):
kids when they're good, and if they're if their behavior
is not exactly what you want to see, but it's
not hurting anybody or it's not harming property, can you
just turn away for a wee minute? You know. It's
that kind of the choose your battle sort of notion.
And I think the other bit that goes with that
is being brave enough to kind of march to the
beat of your family's own drum, Like you know what
(06:42):
the values are that you value in your house, and
what what kind of your family said of morals, and
you know, whether you're a family who's fine with climbing
on the couch or not. That's up to you, right,
You know that that's up to you. That's your family,
so you get to decide what good enough kind of
looks like in your house. And and truly, tim that's
(07:04):
the and to to getting too hung up on parent
perfect the idea, the myth of perfect parenting is realizing
that what our kids actually need from us is what's
known as good enough parenting. And if we can all
strive to be good enough, well, guess what, that's actually
better than perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Anyway, what's well, gosh, I'm just trying to make sure
the questions I aren't asked, aren't to ask, aren't too loaded.
But you did say, what's good enough? What's not good enough?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, well, not good enough would be neglect, it would
be abuse, it would be you know, hunger, are not
good enough would be a lack of kind of loving
relationships anywhere. So that's not to say that if you're
not going through if you're a parent and you're going
through a difficult patch and you're struggling to kind of
(07:56):
be there for your kids in the way that you
really want to, what we really hope is that you've
got other really loving adults in that kid's life who
can step in and be your backup and support. Things
are hard for families. Things are really hard for families
without stacking on top of it a pressure to be
you know, for this myth of perfection, I think that
(08:17):
it's always been around. There's always been a sort of
unhelpful sort of element of what I would call competitive parenting.
You know, whose babies rolled over the fastest, as if
that makes a difference in that you know which kid
won the cross country. You know, like, come on, guys,
how about are we a community and do we care
about each other's kids or are we in competition? And
(08:39):
I don't think social media helps with that at all.
That people can feel really sort of why social media
is garrison.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I hate social media for parenting. I don't know why,
because it's a bit like cooking. You know, the people
have well this is a bad example, but you know,
no one who's got an Internet cooking channel is going
to put up the omelet that they burned and ruined.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
The mess in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
In fact, if I was going to do a cooking channel,
I would deliberately show whatts and all, because I think
there would be the point of difference because everyone else
is so bliming perfect like that with parenting is everyone's.
And I went to this wonderful thing the other day
with my child and we did this together. It was
all wonderful. And I don't know, just the keeping up
with the jones Is on steroids, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I think it's a very good descriptive for it. In fact,
it's funny. Just just today I had a neighbor talking
about this topic and using that very phrase about keeping
up with the Joneses, which is why I guess so
I keep coming back to that idea of like, you've
got to figure out what your family's values are and
what success looks like in your house. And it might
not be everybody in matching outfits for a Christmas card photo,
(09:50):
you know what I mean. It might be like, actually,
we all got our teeth brushed every morning before school,
and that's victory. But to your point, that's not what
we sort of post about on social media, is it.
It's not like, yay, victory found all the socks, you know,
old ones and this week you know, I mean, really
that's what you should be posting about on social media,
(10:12):
but people don't. It's the it's the shiny moments, you know,
And how did someone put it. It's it's it's looking
at someone's highlights reel, and then in your brain you're
running your own sort of blueber reel, which is not helpful.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I can't remember. It might have been one of
the guests on my show who said this, which I liked,
the idea of I'm not sure whether. I'm not sure
how much I subscribe to the idea of myself, because
I literally don't know. But he or she said that,
you know, a lot of what your child is going
to end up like is locked in from the moment
(10:49):
they're they're conceived or born, or and so just enjoy
getting to know them. But that implies to me, well,
it tells it. It sort of says suggest to me
that you can't really influence their personalities too much, whatever
they are. And for instance, I've got two girls, and
(11:10):
I don't talk about them too much on the show,
but I can definitely see one of them who has
a huge number of my traits on just to do
with keeping tidy or to doing jobs or procrastinating or whatever,
and I literally look and go, oh my goodness. I
was like that when I was thirteen or fourteen, it's like,
(11:32):
can you do this such and such? Look, I'll do
that in just a moment. I've just got to quickly
go to the loo. And I was thinking, oh my god,
I used to do that as well, and I used
to do it sincerely. But I see facets of her
that is totally locked in me, and other facets of
my daughter which is very heavily influenced by my wife's personality.
(11:52):
And is that something that's just locked in? Therefore, hands
off the controls, just let them fly themselves up to
a point.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, Well, you've had on so I've got so much
to say about it. I've had on about six really,
I just hope I can write you put on about
six really good things. One is the age old debate
about talking about child child development is it nature or nurture?
And what we now know, of course, is that it's
very much both. That nature is what you're talking about
(12:22):
in kind of in terms of sort of genetic potential,
and it's the genetic information that we're inheriting from our parents.
But in terms of the nurture, well, some of those
genes are switched on from birth. Those are what we
would call template genetics, But there's other genes within our
code which are called transcription genetics, like they are waiting
(12:43):
from a story from the environment in order to decide
what kind of switch on or switch off. So that
speaks to that whole idea of those first thousand days,
and how absolutely about early relationships, About how much of
this little brain did I need to wire up in
(13:04):
respects to the experiences of my first three years? Was
I in a house, Was I where I was read
to all the time and my questions were answered? Was
I in a house where people lit up, you know,
they were happy to see me when I entered a room.
Or was I in a house where the adults had
no time because they were all working three jobs and
(13:25):
maybe depressed, or maybe on drugs, or maybe didn't know
how to read themselves, or you know, like whatever it
is of the environment that I've grown up And the
key and most important thing for supporting optimal child development
always being relationships that are warm and kind and loving
and consistent. Relationship is the ultimate gift that we can
(13:50):
give to our kids.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So what is the nature then? What's what are the
nature bits?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
That are the nature bits? Well that I mean, that's
that's some of that's as simple as like how tall
are you going to be?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You know, my daughter's saying, I'm going to do the
dishes later, dad. Is that something something she's learned from me?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I spect she's heard that mother.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No, okay, my wife's not listening that war actually, But
I mean, these are the things that we do worry about,
like which what are the bits that are baked in
that I can relax about, and what are the bits
where I can really drop the ball. Because you've mentioned
the thousand days, first thousand days, first three years, and
(14:34):
we mean if you cock up the first three years,
is there any coming back from it? Is the other one?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Sure? I mean, change is always possible. And the brain
has has other phases of sort of particularly plastic activity,
like plastic meaning I always think that's quite sounds quite weird,
but it is what the term for alliable, meaning it's changeable,
malleable totally, and there's a phase of that at a
big burst in adolescence. And it is also you know,
(15:03):
change is always possible. One a really great I think
one of the really important messages both in terms of
brain development, which I didn't mean to talking about what
I get excited. So here we are. But also in
terms of the topic of good enough parenting that we
were talking about before, you know, the idea of repair,
like that rupture can happen, that mistakes happen, that arguments happen,
(15:27):
that miscommunications happen, and sometimes sometimes things get messed up.
But that by knowing how to say a lot honey,
we got off sides, there can we right like and
that can that can be in ways big and small.
So if you are a parent who got to suddenly
(15:47):
realize you've got this four year old and you're thinking, shit,
is I've never actually sat down and read a book
with this kid, It's not too late. It's absolutely not
too late. It's if we can we harness the benefit
of those first thousand days to set up the sort
of patterns that we really want to see. If we
haven't done that, we don't despair. Change is always possible,
(16:08):
it just might not be quite so straightforward.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Gosh, I've written down a truckload of things I want
to talk to you about, but we need to take
a moment. We're we're with Miriam m how do we
mim sorry, mim Michayla. Fine, Yeah, I know, I'm going
to try and go with mim Tim anyway, we would
love your cause if you've got any questions about, you know,
if you're a parent who's got a little bit of
anxiety about wondering how you can have the best impact
(16:36):
on your children, or if there's something you're worried about
to do with their development or something we'd love to
hear from you on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
And you might even just have had a rule of
thumb when you became a parent about the best way
to go about that. I was going to say the
business of being a parent. I hate that expression, just
the you know, being a parent. We'll be back in
just a moment. It is twenty four past five. This
(16:56):
is News Talk z B News Talk said B Welcome
back to the show. My guest is doctor Miriam otherwise
known as Michaeleb. She's public health fellow at the Universe said.
If Canniby talking about are parents too hung up on
being perfect? And what are the basics for just you know,
trying to avoid cocking your kids up too much. By
the way, if you have particular rules, I don't mean rules,
(17:18):
I'm censoring myself all the time. But do you have
any particular guidance if you have a parent who's feel
you've learned a few things through parenting, there are a
few basic rules that you would pass on to another parent.
Give us a call on I eight hundred eighty ten eighty,
because the question is, I mean, maybe we're all bound
in some way to mess our kids up in some way,
but you know what do you reckon? I eight hundred
(17:40):
eighty ten eighty. Actually, Miriam, I forgot to ask you
to We normally with a new guest, we normally get
to know you a little bit, and I completely forgot. Well,
we got just quiz you about how did you get
involved with your interested in parenting and what you do
at the University of Canterbury.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah. So I have always been really interested in child
development and I kind of fell in love with baby.
I just haven't known at a time that I wasn't
just really into hanging out with babies. I think they're fascinating.
I love to watch them. I think that they you know,
you can literally you can kind of see them learning
(18:17):
day by day, week by week. I think they're great, right,
And so I trained as an early childhood teacher originally,
and I worked with little kids straight out of high school.
And so I was twenty one when I graduated the
same year as the New Zealand early childhood curriculum. That's
that's a little clue anyway, and from there kind of
(18:39):
got into parenting. Well what happened, all right? So my
husband was born in the great state of Tennessee, and
I went to live there, and I had this fantastic
job and learned it was right at the turn of
the century when we were suddenly learning all of this
information about brain development, and I kind of naively thought, oh, well,
(19:00):
here we go. We've got cellular evidence about how incredibly
important babies are, and how what I've been observing all
these years of the rapid rate of development for infancy
is now true and observable on a cellular level. This
will change everything. This is going to mean that we
fund maternal health care really really well, and we support
(19:20):
mothers and babies. And we've won those first thousand days
to make sure that everybody gets to me statelogically right,
and guess what time it hasn't happened. But so, yeah,
when I came back to New Zealand, I got involved
with the brain Wave of Trust, whose mission is about
sharing information about development of the brain, and that was
(19:41):
really great work, kind of at the beginning of the century.
And then I started having my own family, which kind
of slowed things down and interrupted things. I went back
to studying because I had a question that needed answering
and I couldn't find the answer. So I became kind
of a reluctant academic in my forties, went back and
did a research master's degree.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Kind of driven. I'm thinking, as well.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
If you've you know, yeah, well here's the thing. What
I knowing is what I knew about development of the
brain and attachment theory and the importance of early relationships.
I started observing the parents on smartphones and I started
really having some questions, thinking this is not going to
(20:24):
be good for child development. Like I now know that
what I feel is called pre TSD, where it's like
pre traumatic stress disorder, because I can see this meteorite
moving towards Earth, which is the shape like a smartphone,
and it's interfering with infant development in ways that big
and swell.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, that's actually I want you to continue that story,
but you've I mean you're hitting us something we are
hitting really hard on this show because it seems that
one of the things that we can at least be
pleased with is we've stopped at you know, we are
having these conversations, we're talking about the social media bands, and.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We're pleased with having these conversations.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
We've got phones out of got phones out of of
kids hands at school, and I'm thinking one rule we
could come up with from this hour is don't put
your kid, at your infant in front of a device
would be probably a first rule generally speaking. What we're
a but I don't want to take your flow either
(21:23):
on I did interruct.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Sorry, no worries. I definitely think that that's that's part
of the broader conversation that we have to have, Timber,
because which you're you're sort of talking about kid's use
of devices, which is a really important conversation, and I'm
totally happy to go there. What all of my work
has concentrated on to this point has been in my research,
has been about parents' use of devices and especially during
(21:48):
infancy and toddlehood and what that's meaning, which is it's
connected not being present.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
In other words, that's this is.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
It and and there. It's one of the strongest predictors
of kids use. So it is related to what you're
talking about, but.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It's did that mean that you would keep your m okay?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
So yeah, when you were saying kind of what's the
rule we could make or whatever, what I would say
my urge, my encouragement would be that my worsh if
I had imagined down your own device, would amen that's it.
That's exactly it. So it's and my worsh would be
that family's at the stage of pregnancy, so before a
baby is born, families would sit down and make a
media plan, like how are we going to all manage
(22:31):
our devices when this baby comes? So it's not just mum,
and it's not just dead. It's granny's and it's big
siblings and it's everybody. Because if you think about it
a little bit, like people used to smoke around babies, right,
and people used to be chill about that, and there'd
be living rooms with smoke and babies in.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
My family doctor used to smoke right while he was examined.
It's take a path put that anyway.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Can you imagine? I had a principle at my primary
school anyway. But that's story. But look, I think that
there's a researcher called Dividi who describes smartphones as and
their social pollution. And so I think if you kind
of think about it like a social like, it's like smoking,
but it's for the relational now much rather than your lungs.
(23:19):
And so if the whole family, for example, families used
to smoke in living rooms and then they all decided,
do you know what we're going to If we're going
to smoke, we're going to do it outside. People did that.
That's something that we are capable of doing with our
devices as well. Make a plan. How are we going
to manage the devices around this little baby so that
we can prioritize face to face connection.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It's funny now you've saying this. I'm actually trying to
go through my head. I can't remember what we did,
but I do remember. Yeah, I just can't remember, but
I do remember my we were. We doated, and we
love to spend time with their kids, and I took
photos with the I can't remember what I did. I
(24:01):
have no yeah, I have no recollection. And now I'm worried.
But it was fifteen years ago. So maybe I just did.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Well. Things have changed a lot and fifteen years in
terms of our relationships with our phones, all of us.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, oh of course because something that's yeah, I don't
even know what was around for what do we do?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah? Yeah, I might not have been as obsessed with it. No, Yeah,
the smartphone was released in two thousand and seven, and I.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Can tell because the photos I've got of my kids
were not taken on my phone. That's how I know.
And now I remember we had a camera which we
took photos with. Because so I'm hoping that another time.
I'm hoping I wasn't dreadful. But I mean that would be.
I mean, if people were listening to this and thinking,
you know, I've got a child coming along, that would be,
(24:48):
by the sound of it, something you've think. You've got
to work out how we're going to handle our devices
so the child doesn't feel that something else is capturing
our attention.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Is that the gist, it's the gist, And it's not
about never using your phone never ever. It's just about
being purposeful about when you do use your phone. And
sometimes it's something as subtle as going to when I
need to use my phone, I'm going to say, oh,
excuse me, I just need to send a message, and
I'll say that to whoever's in the room, and that
includes babies and children, because then they get that little
(25:20):
queue of oh, mom's gone for a sec and she'll
be back. And then when I finished sending my message
and say okay, I'm done, and I put my phone
down and now I'm present again. But unfortunately, that's not
how most of us use our phones. And so the
real kind of I guess enemy if you like, is
actually the mindless scroll. It's just the infinite kind of
(25:40):
you know, zoned out sort of scrolling when other people
are around. That's the problem. It's the problem. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
See, I've yeah, I've had this question because I say,
I work in the media, and I my dad used
to read the paper. My dad was a great dad.
We used to do lots of things with him. You know
that he when Dad was reading the paper, he's reading
the paper. I read the paper on a device now.
And I've even you know, I've had this discussion with
my teenage girls who say, well, Dad, you're on your phone.
It's like, yeah, I'm not posting or liking something. I'll
(26:11):
show you the new sites I'm reading. Here's the BBC,
Here's CNN, here's the Herald, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
And I explain to them why I'm using it, but
I still feel I mean, are they explaining as losing
but they are put you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
It's I respect that because and it also taps into
something that turns up in the research, which is the
way that we do judge other people's phone use compared
to our own phone use. And I think that, I mean,
there is a difference between are you using your phone
to be creative and productive or are you using your
(26:47):
phone to just numb yourself or distract yourself from something
you don't want. You know, there's different ways. Not all
phone uses terrible, and not all times in places are
horrific and so on. But I mean, I think your
daughters do have a point when they say, look from
the other side of this, I can't tell what you're doing,
and you know you're watching the news. They don't know that,
(27:12):
and so you know, by telling them that makes it
makes some sense.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I do sort of narrate it. I'll sometimes say how
I'm reading the news right now? Girls, I mean, they
know when I'm doing duo lingo because I'm speaking in
a different language all the time. In fact, they probably
want me to shut up because it's piping up. But
I actually do make a point of telling them what
I'm doing. So that's probably I'm glad. That's a good instinct,
is it?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Or I think it's I think it's a good instinct
because it also draws a line between kind of well
it helps keep you honest as well, because I'm sure
if you were on the news sites for I don't know,
an hour and a half over breakfast, they'd have something
to say about it. But if it's you kind of
checking in with the headlines for I don't know, ten
to fifteen min there's different. It's all a continuum, isn't it.
(27:56):
No answers. It depends the answer to every question, is it.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Look, if I'm a if I'm an expecting expectant parent,
to me that the fact that you've just mentioned that
something to be I think that's a huge benefit to
actually have to just be aware that this is something
you need to you know, and it's not about their
screen time. It's about your attention for them, that's it.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
And so maybe it's a Maybe it's thinking about let's
try and keep our phones in the nappy bag and
we only get them out once babies asleep. Yeah, or
you know, like if you can not, I recognize not
everybody's kind of work situations allow for that, or you
might it's.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
At least asking yourself the question your streets ahead of
someone who just was mindlessly on their phone for hours
without thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
It is. It is about that thought being thoughtful. And
my research the kind of the catchphrase I used was
use it wisely, so sticker on the back of your phone,
use it wisely. So if I was to text a
friend as a new mum, if I was to send
a text to a friend and say, hey, can we
meet up for a coffee and go for a walk,
that's really wise use because that took me all of
(29:08):
thirty seconds. Excuse me, baby, I'm just going to send
this text. It took me all of thirty seconds to
send my message and it results in this wonderful face
to face, socially connected going for a walk, having a yarn.
You know, like, that's wise use of our smartphones sitting
and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and know
to your earlier point. Comparing my life to these people's beautiful,
(29:30):
shiny images on Instagram. That's not going to make anybody
feel better.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, I found actually just getting back into the habit
of reading books is a great way to get your
device down because it's far more interesting. But anyway, that's
just my little observation. Before we go to the break,
we are with Mary and Michaeleb, doctor Mary Michaeleb, and
we're talking about well parenting and we've covered a bit.
We've sort of honed in on the devices, which often
parenting talk does get to. But we've got a few
(29:58):
texts that have got a few questions from Mariam. We'll
come back with those in just a moment. You can
jump the que if you give us a call on
OED ten and eighty, but we'll be back in a tick.
It's twenty to six that we're with new guests on
the show. She is Mim and Michaeleb. She's a public
health fellow at University of Canniby talking about perfect parenting
among other things, and got some calls we're going to
take David.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Hello, Oh yeah, good afternoon, How are you good?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Thanks?
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Look we've got yeah, afternoon, we've got three boys. So
we were introduced as parents to devices through our school.
We had a year five student, well sorry, our oldest
child be introduced into the help classroom and as part
(30:45):
of that they needed a chromebook, so he was introduced
to a device quite early, probably earlier then we required,
well wanted him to have a device, so that was
sort of forced on us through the school and as
part of that, unfortunately no other two children below them
(31:08):
sort of got introduced to the device from there. So
so look, as parents, we were trying our best to
hold off as long as possible, but unfortunately, through the
school were introduced as a as a nine year old
to having a device. So consequently from there things have
(31:28):
gone from bad to worse. And yeah, sort of the
feeling we got through the child was that, oh, it's
my chromebook, I can do what I want. So it's
sort of it's sort of as a parent become quite
difficult to one restrict but also discipline or you know, ultimately,
if we didn't have that to begin with forced on us,
(31:50):
then we wouldn't have had the pressure I guess from there.
So look, in theory, things sound good, but practicality sort
of way, it doesn't always work as a parent.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Any thoughts on.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That, man, You know, Yeah, Look, I really feel for you, Dave.
And it's not you. This is not the first You're
not the first person I've heard this from that it
can feel like that decision has been maybe taken out
of your hands as a parent, and that you would
have liked to have sound by the sounds of things,
kept your boys device free a little longer, and that
that sort of that decision got taken out of your hands.
(32:26):
I really feel for you, and all I can I mean,
we've got we've got in New Zealand. I didn't realize
this until some colleagues from University of Auckland published a
paper about the way that we are using It was
in the New Zealand Medical Journal about the way that
we are using screens in schools in New Zealand. And
we really have just like galloped into it with a
(32:48):
hiss and a raw sort of more than even most
countries around the world. And it's the frustrating bit is
that we didn't need that. The companies the likes of
Google Classroom, you know, and the Google Chromebook and so on,
they didn't have to present the evidence showing how this
was going to make kids learning better. That it's just
(33:11):
been embraced at real pace. And so now if you
are a person who, for example, wants to reintroduce handwriting,
I can point to lots of studies showing the benefits
of doing that, But the burden of responsibility would be on,
you know, Davis, a parent to go on into his
classroom and go, excuse me, you know, I need you
to up end the way you do things, and that's
(33:33):
not an easy place anywhere.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, sort of going back a little bit on that, now,
aren't we trying to get back to more that, you know,
the handwriting and the you know, the micro sort of
physical skills that kids need as well as paper.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I really hope that the tide has tuned. I really
think that there are enough people kind of aware of
not just the social stuff. Like it's not just social media.
It is as you say, it's it's fine motor skills,
it's our spinal health, it's our eye health like that,
all sorts of things that are being compromised by the
(34:08):
way that we've just had this rapid uptake of device
Yet what Yeah, so my advice with Dave with his
three three wee boys. It's at home. I think that
you would need to and you and your lad thinks
that it's his chrome boxer. Therefore he gets to sort
of set the rules. It's like, unfortunately not some that's
(34:30):
my house, and I get to set the rules. And
and if that looks like like you know, in our house,
for example, there's just there's no devices in the bedrooms.
That's that not you know, not mum and dad either.
We don't have our phones in our in the bedrooms overnight.
We don't have devices at the table. That's that like.
So whatever the kind of the house rules are, I
(34:51):
guess it's again about getting out in front of it
with a family media plan, deciding. You might decide we
only have one device at a time in the living room,
so if the family's watching a movie, you're not. We're
not sitting on our devices as well. We're watching the
movie to get there, you know, so that your family
gets to decide what your how it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Okay, thank you for your call, David. Look everyone's caught.
We've had a bunch of calls suddenly, come of it.
We're running at a time. I've just got a quick
text here. This one says, I'm worried about my teenage
daughter not making the right choices with diet and exercise.
But I don't want to say something that's going to
give her a hang up, any thoughts. I mean, I mean,
(35:35):
I'm just trying to get through a few a text
or too, but that one stuck stuck out.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a big topic. That's
a really big topic.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
We need to say it for next time.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, that's a really big topic because there we know
that the way that I mean it is a big topic.
I'm scared to kind of open the lid on it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
But tell you what, shall we park that for next time?
We'll make a move and we'll get into the teenage
because this is all about, you know, trying to avoid
doing things, and we don't. We've sort of probably a
bit shorter.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Time in that gay Yeah, I mean to that, Mama
would just say, I hear you, feel you, And it's hard.
It's hard work raising teenage girls to hold their heads up.
Same thing, much to the beat of your own drum,
you know, let her be staunchly herself, which is not
an easy thing and a world that tries to sort
of smush you into a certain suitain shape.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I'm going to make a note of that week because
because I did, I should have should have saved that
text for next time. Anyway. But hey, Miriam, thank you
so much for your time this afternoon, and I hope
we can. We're going to get you on again soon.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, that's my great pleasure. It's lovely to meet you, Tim,
and I just want all of your listeners are fantastic
Saturday and remind them that they are doing great parentings,
hard work and you're doing an awesome job if.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
They were to. Is there anywhere where they can follow?
Do you have a blog or anything that I do?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I have My website is under construction rather like rather
like an Natalie sent brain. Yes, but it'll be back.
I'll be back in the meantime. I mean, I'm all
over the place. I've written for lots of magazines and.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Okay, Miriam michaelab Hey, hey, thank you so much for
joining us this apener, and we'll look forward to next time.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Great to meet you. Take them here.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Okay, bye bye, We'll be back to wrap Sport in
just a moment. If you missed any of that hour,
by the way, you would their podcast after six slot.
You can be able to check that out. But what
Christopher Reeve's with us in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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