February 6, 2026 • 37 mins
A new report this week found nearly 90% of Auckland primary school say there's an increasing number of new entrants starting school without bare basic skills like being toilet trained and talking properly.
These are 5 year olds who are otherwise capable, but some stage of their early childhood seems to have been neglected - they can't even identify the letters of their name or hold a pencil.
As harsh as it may be, the blame does have to land somewhere.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
A B.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm time Bevers.
Don't forget if you miss any of the hours, you
can go and check out the podcast after six o'clock
then just go to iHeartRadio and they'll be all there
if you just look for the Weekend Collective or go
to news Talk, SAIDB dot co dot z. Now there's
a new report. There's a new report this week which
(01:12):
found that nearly ninety percent of primary schools say that
there's an increasing up that they were reporting that there
were an increasing number of new entrants starting school without
bear basic schools like being toilet trained and being able
to actually just have oral communication schools talk properly. There
were some other sidelines that you know, they didn't recognize
(01:37):
the letters of their own name. And these five year
olds who would would otherwise be capable, but some stage
of their early childhood seems to have been neglected. When
you know, you can't even hold a pencil or identify
as the letters of your own name. So you know,
where does the blame land? When where does the blame
(01:57):
rest with us? And what do we do about it?
What is it? Is it parents distracted by phones? Is
it parents not communityating with their children? It touches on
a little bit. I'm aware that this touches a little
bit on you know, how much we should be involved
with our kids' education, like we discussed last week. But
you know, it's hard not to lay the blame at
the feet of parents. Or is it ecees the early
(02:21):
childhood education lacking in how they prepared children for school?
My guess is no. If you've if you've got the
energy and the enthusiasm to get your child to an
early childhood education center, then you've done something. And I
imagine that this issu would be high outed before that.
But anyway, what do you reckon? O? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine to nine to two. And
(02:41):
to discuss that and other things we talk regarding education
and parenting. Katherine Burkett as our guest. She's a neuroscience
educator at Engaged Training and she's with us for the
Parents Squad. Catherine, Hello, hello, Tim, how are you?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I'm really good at she on this beautiful sunny Wellington day.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Are you doing You sound like you're sitting out in
your deck or something, just having a having a refreshment
or something. Anyway, have you had a good break.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Oh, I've had an amazing break. I get a fourth
break because people don't want training over Christmas, so I
get a fourth break, which is perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Hey, what was What was your take on the story?
When you hear about kids, you know, heading to start
their first school and they just don't have the basics. Yeah,
I mean it's hard. It's a difficult topic list because
you sort of just want the gut reaction is you
just want to say, what the hell is going on
at home that the kids are turning up there? But
what's your take on this?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah? What's actually a subject I talk a lot about,
especially when I'm training schools and stuff like that, because
it's amazing how much we don't understand that the brain
needs to do the basic things like reading and writing
and recognizing letters and stuff like that. And the crazy
thing is is one of the most important things for
our brain body system to be able to regulate and
(03:57):
learn is literally the move to jump, to twil, to
spin and to sense things. So to have feet into
the water and the mud on the grass. And when
you think about in a general sense ten years ago,
twenty years ago. The difference, that's the stuff we're missing.
I mean, there's so much more to this, but those
are some of the basic things. So we're not doing that,
(04:18):
which means we're not doing the next bit, We're not
doing the next bit, we're not doing the next bit.
So that's the first fundamental thing is move and touch.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So is that saying that the concern is that, I mean,
oh god, I'm you know what, because it's such a
touchy subject. I'm pussy footing around already, but basically saying
that these kids are likely have been far too sedentary
for a start.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
One hundred percent. And by the way, pussy footing around
and stuff that, I get it, I get it. But
I mean I was a single parent right with two
young kids. If I'd had devices available, and I'd had
a device for me and a device for them, I
highly likely would have used it. They look amazing, they
look flash they look like they're teaching our kids heaps.
It looks amazing. We have to teach parents. So we
(05:02):
can't be soft about this because they are literally changing
the way that brains are developing, and they are a
form of neglect now a little bit of it is fine.
You see, I haven't been enjoying myself out on the
deck yet, but I will be having a veno once
I've finished. That's not good for my brain, but it's
in proportion to the good stuff, you see what I mean.
So parents can use devices. I'm not taking them off completely,
(05:24):
but especially with their young ones, we shouldn't have devices
around them. But they're attractive. But what we need to
know is they are taking away fundamental learning that results
in what you're seeing now.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Is it neglect? I mean it, but it's not.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
On purpose, right, it's not on purpose?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, I mean some of it will be, I guess yeah,
But I mean that's the thing that the stats come out.
It seems like from as I mentioned in an introduction,
and as far as we know that, these are children
who are I mean not talking about fetal alcohol syndrome
and things. It's children who would other rot wise if
they'd been given the ride in put bokay, but they
just haven't.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I mean I would have used device. I would have
probably left my kids because you don't have to clean
up to them after them. They're not making a mess,
they're not making a noise. They're very attractive. But what
we have to understand, as kids have to get out
the cardboard boxes to sealitate this is they have to
play with the blocks, they have to run around, they
have to get outside onto the beach, and you know
all of those sorts of things. Those are the things
that are literally building their brains. But we think these devices,
(06:25):
they look like the devices are building their brains, but
what they're doing is stagnating their brains. So we need
to say this because if I was a parent and
I was letting my kid be on advice, I'd want
someone to tell me, even though it might make me
feel a little bit guilty, weird. Whatever, If we don't know,
we can't change, right. So I think this is a
hugely important topic for parents to understand and to start
being aware of.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
But I'm wondering if you're being a bit too hard
on the former, on the imaginary former at Catherine Burkett,
that you would have, you know, defaulted to those devices
because there's been I mean, this is not it's not
news that I mean, intuitively, surely we all parents should
know that Okay, might have stuck that device in front
(07:06):
of your child in the fact and the way that
you might have popped them in front of the TV.
But you know that at some stage you've surely are
you being a bit hard on yourself, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I'm trying to help people put you You're trying.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
To empathize, You're trying to emphasize and put.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yourself in not yeah exactly, And I could like, do
you see? And what I'm saying is they don't look bad,
but our kids are spending hours on these things, even
when we watch TV. Even when I put my kids
in front of the TV, they still ran around, They
still stood on their heads on the couches and went
and got something to wear from the bedroom and come
flying back out. These devices, small devices keep them that sedentary.
(07:42):
Words you said, the more likely are still and they're
more likely to be flicking quickly through things. We're reading
them books off these things. They're not touching books. There's
big clinical study that showed reading kids books, real books
and reading kids exactly the same story on an iPad
or whatever. The brain just did not light up anywhere
near it with the iPad because the kids can't touch
and engage in all of that other stuff. So that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So the cobo cobo and the whatever the other thing.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Is kind one.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So even then, you know, if you're going to buy books,
you should be getting your kids books where they turn
the pages, where they can finger it and ruin the thing.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah. Yeah, And like you said, with kids coming to
school and they don't, we literally have kids who don't
even know what a book is. It's upside doubt. They
don't even they can't even turn pages. You know, they're
swiping books to drain. But what it is is it's
not just that they can't pick up a book, as
their brain is not processing reading, writing letters. And that's
why they can't recognize their name because even if they
(08:42):
can say it on a tablet, they're not like we
had to get in the sand and you draw your letters,
and on the beach you got a stick and you
did all that sort of stuff. That is how the
brain learns through physically interacting through the brain and the body, touching, sensing,
all of that, and we don't respect how important all
of that is. We think it's just the top of
our brain that we need to change. We need to
involve the entire body when we're learning.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So this is I mean how much. I mean, I
know it's not necessarily party or ballpark to sort of
be throwing blame and stuff, but I mean how much
of it is because parents need to kick up the ass.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sorry, it's parents need to know. Parents need to be
aware of this stuff. And literally it starts at birth,
and it starts in the first few years. And it
starts at like I said, playing in the sand, doing
all these things. That is only And yeah, you might
be taking your child to an early childhood center at
the age of six weeks, which some of them do,
which you know if they are the early childhood center
(09:41):
will be doing everything because I've been trained in this stuff.
But if parents have got kids at home, that is
where it starts, and that is where the responsibility your life.
So it is to do with not doing the right
stuff in the first few years. If your kid can't
read it. And by the way, I'm fine with kids
not reading it five, it's just not recognizing letters is
(10:01):
not okay at five. And that all comes from first year,
second year, not at candy sitting them down reading their name.
Do you see what I mean? It comes from movement, sensory,
all of that stuff in the first few years, so
imagining the responsibility of adults.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I'm not even sure if it's actually an actual
memory of mine, but I seem to remember. One of
the first things that you'd see a lot of the
time is when you know your child starts kindergartener early
childhood education. They're introduced to the class and there'll be
a whiteboard or a blackboard, and the teacher will literally go,
this is Rose and they'll write the name on the board.
(10:37):
Rosc probably the first day, I mean, would I be
imagining that that would be quite very, very common sort
of Hello, here's our new member of the class, and
this is how we write their name.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, And then they talk and they're engaged to do it.
They're asked to do it in a good early childhood
center or let the kid develop as they need to develop,
because we all develop at different times. But given give
I mean, I remember the kids, both my kids, So
Morgan would be there writing letters and writing a name
on things and post them into the imaginary letter box
that they had and all that sort of stuff. Mason
was really close to five before he even got interested
(11:11):
in letters and stuff like that, but he still saw
other people doing it and they are still talking to
him and reading in books and stuff like that. He
was exposed towards, exposed to letters, exposed to books, that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
So is it the heart of this? As I say,
it's very easy from a talkbat radio point of view
to go, oh, look at there's a generation of parents
who are just bloody useless, right, But is it the
heart of this is that we are all our children
are growing up in an environment where it's less obvious
for them to go out and play with a stick
(11:42):
and a ball and a bicycle and a whatever and
dig a hole in the ground. Is it? Because that's
the environment we live in, it's going to be more
likely that there are a percentage of the population who
are going to slip through the cracks and turn up
basically not in being able to toilet themselves.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, because they haven't been to the park. Because they
haven't been there because two options. One is because we
can keep them home and keep them entertained better. Like before,
it was just like I'm going crazy, I need to
get the kids out of the house, right and you
went to the park. Now you don't go crazy because
you put them on a device and they don't make sound.
So do you see what I mean? There was that
tension in my house was like, oh, my goodness, we
(12:18):
need to go to the library, we need to go
to the park because I'm going insane with these kids
in the house. Do you see what I mean? So
there was that tension that made us do it. But
it's also some of the ways we're parenting now and
much you know, less people around, so we're doing everything ourselves.
So there's so many aspects of our life that are
changing that are increasing the likelihood that our kids are
(12:40):
not getting out about moving sensing and it's as simple
as that. It feels too simple, but it's a fundamental
basis of how we become a human and learn and
activate brain cells.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So that's an interesting thought in terms of what we
want parents to start doing with the kids and when.
But as I mean, when, when when should parents show
some curiosity about this stuff as well? Though, because you
do you know, we're not talking about someone turning up
(13:12):
at the age of two or three. We're talking about
them and turning up at the age of five.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Are when baby is born, we play peekaboo, we do
run around the guard and we then we get them
into jigsaws and stuff like that. All of that stuff
is learning resilience, is learning emotional regulation. And then we
go to the park, I said, then we learn balance,
and we learn crossing midlines, and we track things, and
we move our eyes from side to side, and we
move them into distance and back in because we're outside,
and all of those things help us read. And what
(13:41):
we don't understand, as parents might say, oh, I'm giving
them a device and they're learning to read off at device.
They now can't see distance and refocus their eyes properly,
so they can't focus on the letters. There's all of
these things we know absolutely through research. Like I said,
they're underpinn it. So it's just having fun and playing
with our kids in the real world. It's not rocket science,
(14:03):
but it needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Actually, now you mentioned that you were talking about the
kindles and the cobos and stuff, and of course, if
you are genuinely getting your child interests in reading, there's
no way that the book that you are that they
should be reading is even really on a kindle. I
mean The Hungry Caterpillar, and I mean a lot of
I think of all the books that our kids read,
and they're all tactile. You know that the hungry caterpillar
(14:25):
and the I mean we're going on a bear hunt.
That's not so tactile. But you know the idea of
giving that, you know, getting the kid to child, kid,
I shouldn't say you a kid that to read on
a device to me does feel like anathema because you know, books,
It's part of the color of your children's life, isn't it.
I mean books lying around the place a lot and
reading them at bedtime.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, like I said. And then you know, I've got
videos of my daughter reading with some things and she's
turning page. She hasn't got a clue what the words say,
but she's turning the pages and saying something to do
with the picture that she remembers, you know. And that's
getting excited about things, touching, things being in that moment.
That's that's what parents need to do. Like I said,
it's not it's not doing the latest science and doing
(15:10):
some big flash things. It's literally letting them get their
shoes off in the mud that will help them recognize letters.
It's it's it's as fundamental as that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
How do pairent, sorry, how did schools dig in? I
mean gosh. I mean it's funny. I think of the
number of things that we put on to schools and
teachers to sort out. Where do where do schools begin
to work out why a why a young a child
(15:39):
is so far behind the eight ball? Because you know,
there's obviously the worst reasons is neglect and we get
sifts involved. The other reasons are simply, you know, some
very poor choices and a lack of engagement and tactile
things and activity. How where do schools where do they
go with this?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well? I mean that obviously having to learn pretty quickly,
and that's what I do. I train schools around the stuff.
But they have access to things like result teacher Learning
of Behavior and SEINGOS. They have those sorts of resources there.
But the thing is, as if your kid comes in
like that, what are we doing. We've got things like
sexual Motor program which we actually get kids crawling and
throwing things and tracking like they literally do things that
(16:21):
babies toddlers should be doing, and that can advance them
into being able to read faster. But it's not about
teaching them to read, it's about literally getting them out moving. Yes,
we see their responses that is que Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's quite fascinating, isn't it. I mean, because you instantly
just think, well, they're not reading, let's get them in
front of some books. But the answer is so much
more than that. It's about, you know, getting them on
the on the jungle gym and the digging around in
the sand pit and all sorts of things and getting
them moving hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Even with christ Church, when all of this stuff was
going on in christ Church with the ongoing earthquakes, and
we found the kids were really entering school really low
ability because of the stress they've been after under schools
in christ Church were allowed to do tefadiki curriculum for
another six months, which is literally play. It's the one
we use in early childhood. So they understood that there
(17:11):
had to be six more months of play before we
started the actual school curriculum. So that's the sort of
stuff that we're looking at now. Schools are recognizing that
when kids come in with all the stuff this article
is talking about, which by the way, is not new,
It's been happening for years. The slow creep into this
stuff we talk and that's what I train in is
understanding the fundamentals, the brain science behind we need play
(17:35):
before we can teach, and it just it doesn't work
any other way.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So this is something that's been going on for a while.
It's just got worse.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Basically one hundred percent. I've been saying this. I would
have been talking about kids coming to school not being
able to toilet for a good two and a half
three years now, yep, because we've known the numbers are increasing. Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Okay, two and a half three years. Devices have been
around for a long time before that. What will what
about you know, pre let's go pre COVID at least,
I guess, because over it always seems to be one
of those barriers. What was it? What was it like?
You know, going back seven eight.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Years, I couldn't say that that was it was on
my radar back then. But yeah, that's not a scientifically no, No,
that's Catherines, that's Catherines info. Yeah, okay, I think COVID
changed a lot because COVID means we couldn't get kids
to the park and we couldn't let them touch things,
and we couldn't you know, I mean we had to
(18:29):
do that. So there was that, but we can now
we're blaming it on COVID it's actually devices now that
are maintaining the issue we saw, but it was a
definite steroid of the issue when we went into for
some people, when we went into this lockdown space.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, okay, look, we love your calls on this, and look,
it is a difficult issue because you know, there there
are you know, children who are not learning turning up
to school with the requisite skills. The oral language skills
are insufficient. They can't write their name, they can't toilet themselves,
and forgetting, there's no way any near reading. They can't
(19:07):
even recognize the letters of their name. We'd love your
response to that story. But also, you know, what are
the steps that you have taken as a parent to
make sure that your kids are up up to scratch?
But do these up to scratch? All these my languagees
are very clumsy this afternoon, But you know what I mean,
we'd love your calls on this, if you'd like to
show your thoughts on this on eight hundred eighty ten eighty,
(19:29):
because I must admit part of me sort of feels
a level of despair about this that the parents, for
whatever reason haven't got their kids ready for school. And
you know what, hope there is twenty six past five.
My guest is Katheryn Burkeott. The number is eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty. We'll be back in just a moment, Yes,
the new Welcome back. We're with Katherine Burkett. She's a
neuroscience educator and discussing the problem of kids. You know,
(19:53):
some children who are in ninety percent of Auckland schools,
nearly ninety percent of Auckland primary schools say there are
an increasing number of new entrants starting school without the
bear basic schools like being toilet train, talking properly, and
even recognizing the letters of their own name. And I
guess the question is, you know, how do we what
(20:14):
things can we do as a society to improve this? Anyway,
taking your cause with Catherine Philip.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Hello, Hey, Tobe, how's to go?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Good mate?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Good cool?
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Cool?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Hey, I'm my oldest single dad. I mean like I'm older,
but I just got a nine year old. Wow, I'm
sixty years old. I've got a nine year old right,
all right? But anyway, anyway, I just found loving her
getting out throwing like when she went to pre school.
We score at kindergarten, right, pre school? Whatever? They can't
(20:46):
believe her advance was because I taught her how to throw, catch, bet, run,
pick out, throw, you know, just those basic skills was incredible.
The way she picked up on learning new things, you know,
I think it gave them their head start and just games,
and she didn't really pick up on vices tills. You
went to school, which good job.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
What's what's your reaction to these?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Do you believe?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Do you also see as a single dad, can you
see how it might you might have got it wrong
or is it just to you incomprehensible.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
It's incomprehensible because I think, for a start, you've got
to love your child, and you've got to engage with
your child, and you basically you don't talk down to them.
You get down on your level, you know. I found that,
like I go to school and help out with games
and stuff, when I always get on my knees, get
down low and talk with them at that level.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
But I think a lot of parents they talk down
tickets and looking up at someone talking to you down,
it's like a pretty negative experience.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
It reminds me of when I went to school, you know.
But we got the strength and the.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Cane and all that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
My tactiles.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
You know, I never get the first time you said
I'm going to make jimjo a sergeant.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
What the hell is sergeant?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
I found out it was three strikes. The beds they
lasted for a month a month?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah? What about what about stuff? What did you do
as a parent? You where you are on your own
quite early with your child?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Who mother committed to stuff? When a half and the
day before Christmas is found your hanging by a knit.
It's just one of those sets, right, Sorry, Sorry, I
didn't miscut there.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And I'm really I'm very sorry to hear that, Philip.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
No, no, I know, because it was the worst part
of my life, in the fifth part of my life,
which was having a great daughter, you know, and we're
just thrive together. That's amazing, you know. And I think
you just got to love your child. You really do
have to love your child and wants to be engaged with.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, you know, No, No, I appreciate your calls, Philip,
and I am very sorry to hear that. That's but
you know, I don't know what to say to that, actually, Catherine.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's what's happened on live radio. But
the point that Philip hat which is absolutely perfect. Is
how simple it is. But do you know it isn't
rocket science exactly as they're saying, and it is getting
out there. So when she's when his daughter's throwing things,
her hand eye coordination, her knowing her body, so she
(23:29):
can feel her body as she throws a ball. Then
when she gets excited or she gets scared, she can
feel that. Like what we don't understand, like I keep saying,
is that what he was doing was just normal hangout,
play with your kid. But it builds the foundation of learning,
and that is what we are not doing so well anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well, is there something, I mean, how do we fix this?
Because you obviously this is an area you've been involved
with her for a bit. But is there anything that
we this I'm interrupting myself because it sounds like, you know,
we look for the government or something, you know, But
what is what can we as a society do or
(24:08):
are they just parents who are going to slip through
the crack, who are just you know, following the example
of their parents. Then they're just not ready to be parents.
They've got no comprehension of the needs of that little
person in their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, I don't. I believe that, and I see it
as this lack of connection in our community. Right, Like
when I was a parent and you sort of get
to know your neighbors, you were hanging out with the
other kids, and you're talking to other kids all yours
And when I, like, I walk Lyle Bay Beach a
lot with a dog, and I literally make a point
of if there's young kids on the beach and they're
in the water, I interact, Hey, I'll call jumping the
(24:41):
waves or something like that, because I want lots of
different people to be talking to the kids, and I
want them to experience that and have fun. And I
often will go over to parents and go, oh, my goodness,
it's so cool to see you out here digging in
the sand. And I'll say hi to the cat.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Like if we were a community and if our kids
had lots of other people, so Philip was in my neighborhood,
he would have taken my kids. I wasn't that active, right,
Being a single mum was a little bit different, and
so Philip was in my neighborhood, would have said. I went, hey,
can you just grab my kids and hang out with
them for a bit to take them throw the ball
in the pack, do you see? And if we were
more like that, then it wouldn't be on each parent
(25:15):
on their own and we would do a better job collectively.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
By the way, just not wanting to be trivial. Did
you say playing and digging and swimming in La Bay?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah? Not today.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I'll tell you what. Saw someone digging around in Larby.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not doing about today.
Other times, I know, I couldn't even take my dog
to the beach, to the poor old park. It was like,
poor things, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It's go there, let's not go we did. But you
mentioned l Bae, not me.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Past. I've seen kids digging and playing in the waves
in Milbay. Not today. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Actually it's funny, it does. I mean it always plays
into the discussion around digital devices and social media. But
I did notice that the PR person for Meta was here.
I think she was interviewed on Mike's show, and she
was saying that the ban on social media was too
simplistic and stuff, and I'm thinking, I don't know, you know,
(26:13):
I'm not hearing much. I'm not hearing much in the
conversations around our kids where we go. Let's they need
more device time.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, we can leave that for ez of it for
another time, because I've got deep and big opinions about
teenage social media stuff. But if I could talk to
this subject, what I talk to audience about is literally,
if I was going to make any social any device rules,
it's under seven, no small devices for our kids, and
no small devices in the hands of any adult who's
(26:43):
near a child under seven. That would change the world,
because we're literally teenagers are affecting their behavior by using devices.
Babies and toddlers and little ones are affecting the development
of their brain by being on these things, like physically
affecting their brain, and we don't know how much we
can change back.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Do we need to have more? There's also to me,
it seems to be screaming that, but there are a
lot of parents who are just not simply they just
don't know what what in being a parent means and
they're just not ready on any level. So this child
comes along, and you know what I mean, I mean,
(27:22):
do we need to do more with you know, sitting
people down and saying, right, you've got a parent, you've
got a child on the way, You know, here's a
give them some basics understanding on how their child is
or isn't going to develop as a result of the
care they get on that.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
When I used to work for Brainwave Trust, if you know,
for many years ago, we're still around Brainwave Trust, where
their research showed absolutely once someone gets pregnant, the couple
gets bring it. They do not want to know anything
about anything except for the birth. So we can't train
people when they get it's six to eight weeks later.
Then we can start talking to them and we could
do those things. But do you know what we could
do is create more collective grandparents, you know, like older
(28:01):
grandparents around helping out because they are the ones that
have been there, done that, and they understand, they've got
more patience with our kids. If we just did that,
that's a lot more than trying to teach parents, especially
these days, because parents are by the way, we do
have more likely two parents working or one parent on
their own and working. We also have an increase in eurodiversity,
we have an increase in different behaviors in there. So
(28:24):
I by the way, all of this stuff coming into
school is not only parental, some of it's genetic, but
the majority of it parental, but there is genetic sort
of spaces there as well.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
It's funny because if I was to talk about a
takeaway from what your earlier remarks were as well, it
was just that it's not about necessarily I mean, of
course that is important to sit down and read with
your child and all that, but it was the comments
you made around just tactile movement, you know, playing with sticks,
shaping things, getting your hands dirty, tumbling, rolling around, physical activity,
(28:56):
just all part of that. Just don't let your kids
be sedentry.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
And that's what I'm saying because people think, oh, to
make my kid read, I'll give them a device and
get them on this device reading learning things. So by
the time they get no, that's not they're not going
to learn it. They're not going to do it. And
in these days, let's be real, it's more likely that
we might stop our kids going out and playing in
the mud and playing outside and running on the grass
because we're a little bit more worried about stuff like that.
(29:21):
But I promise you we're doing more damage than about
that than maybe a little bit of you know, like
they've got some dirt in their mouth or something like that.
That is not going to hurt them, but we are
damaging their brains by not getting them out and doing
all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah right, let's take take some more calls.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Clarie, Hello, Yes, could I just calling about the fact
that I own a school over in the Philippines with
my partner. I'm calling for New Zealand actually, and we're
called the bride Kids Learning and Tutorial Acade of Me
(29:58):
uh huh corporate.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And what I added, do you teach three to five?
Uh huh? And what what?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
What would you like to offer us as your.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Well, I'd like to offer the fact that by the
time these young ones go to school primary school are
level one at or sorry it's level three, I think
it is at primary school. They can already write their name,
they can already say the alphabet, they can already count
(30:29):
to one hundred. The ones that we have that are
three year olds we have for two years. They go
to the primary school once they've reached five years of age.
The ones we have at four, we have for a year,
and they learn quite a lot in one year.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
So are you saying that the Philippines wouldn't have these
sorts of problems for some reason that.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Or not.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
What problems the problems with parents not being able to
teach their kids or anything. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
No, I'm just asking what you're you know, you're saying,
what what what you're witnessing with these kids being well.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
Prepared so well they are where.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
They go right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And where are we going wrong? Is what I mean?
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Well, so we're going wrong anywhere. It's we need to
get more of these schools going perhaps. I don't know
if there's any in New Zealand at the moment, but
they called pre school schooling.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, I mean we do have early child on education,
I guess, but yeah, I mean that's yeah, Catherine, did
you have something you want to contribute there?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
No, yeah, we do have a CES. And and by
the way, I train a lot of e c s
as well, and one of the issues with e CES
is is parents restricting how much e c s can
do with the kids and how much taxtics and how
much movement and stuff like that. So there's a little
bit in there as well. So pre school different to
e c I just called them early child kind anything
(32:02):
that you're chucking it, yeah, just struck it all in
one big I don't differentiate what our kids go before school.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I still love the name kindergarten, which is I think
we stole that from the Germans, didn't we kindergarten?
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Anyway, Hey, look, we'll be back in I think so. Yes, anyway,
let's not have the semantic debate, but we'll be back
in just a minute. It's eighteen and a half minutes
to six News Talks. He'd be yes, just a few
more minutes with Katherine Burker. Let's have a look at
some texts. Katherine just talking about kids not turning up
(32:39):
to school with the basics, with the basics basically being
able to toilet and talk and et cetera. Says that's
an interesting one. Says for some parents it's ignorance or
lack of effort. But please bear in mind that some
are so worn down by low play, higher rent, long
travel times between home and working out a suburbs, as
well as inflation putting the essentials out of reach. Some
parents are time and energy poor as well as a
(33:01):
resource poor. I'm well off now, but I remember what
it's like to strike.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, and that's a huge point. Owen, and I feel that,
and I've sort of mentioned, you know, like we but
if we live, if we parented collectively, because we're not
supposed to do this on our own, it's impossible. Do
you know. Anthropological research shows that the most healthy relational
basis is to have four to one, and that's four
adults per child up to the age of six. If
(33:27):
you look at tribes that still live really naturally and
historically how we live naturally four adults per child. So
Owen's exactly right. We shouldn't have one parent to sometimes
four children. So it is difficult. Absolutely, we need to
change how we collectively parent.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And this one says Tim, this conversation makes me sad
and very grateful that my wife did all this when
I was working maybe with parents or working. The grandparents
are an asset we need to use, I mean, two
parents working as a challenge for our society. It's just
it's it is a challenge. It's no other way to
put it. Yeah, And I don't imagine back in the
(34:04):
days where you know, for whether for whatever reason, where
there was far more stay at home parents, let's be honest,
mostly mums. I don't imagine these problems existed in nearly
the way that they do these days.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
No, and like Philip. Yeah, And like Philip says, it's
because you got out and you did things, and like
I'm saying, there was that pressure to get out, get
into the fresh air. It's just that that's not the
natural way of doing things now. But we have to
respect that that wasn't just play, wasn't just fun. It
was literally brain building.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Another one says, I know someone who has been a
new entrant teacher for many years. She told me the
children are coming from many early childhood centers having been
taught bugger or they just play most of the day. Well,
funnily enough, playing most of the days not the worst,
is it? Is it?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
It's not. No, it's not. And our ecs know that.
And if they've got a kid who's already behind, they're
going to have to play for a couple of years
because that will be more likely to get them there.
But then when they hit school, they've still got that
expectation that at five day will be able to So
we've got to stop this expectation that at five we're
going to have this amazing brain that can sit down
and read. And by the way, that's not normal to
(35:11):
in a brain tour about seven to be able to
read to be quite honesty. So there's a lot of
that stuff that's wrong as well expectations of our kids.
But yeah, playing is actually and by the way, most ecs,
most kindy's will know how play, how to play in
the right way. Do you see what I mean? They're
not just playing. If you win and actually ask them
why they're doing that stuff, they could probably tell you
(35:33):
the neurological basis of why they're playing in the sandpit
and what they've set up to do them to balance
today or to do that. So it might look like
play to you, but it's probably highly expert stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
By the way, somebody's message saying, come on, guys, it's
mostly immigrants with English as a second language. I'm going
to put my money on where my mouth is and
say I think that's nonsense. I don't think it's about
that at all. It's about what would you say to that, Catherine.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It's not it's regular children, like you said, absolutely, we
know that we're going to have some young people that
are going to be more likely to have though difficulties starting,
but the kids we would expect to be on the
same stage, and as we've seen it with our own eyes, a.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Couple more text One says we did a four month
anti nadul class that came with a three month post
natal class. That's when they covered early education, the importance
of books, et cetera. Through the Parents Center. Well on the.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Parents Center, talk about let's up the parents Center everybody.
They've got great online resources, by the way, with using
devices safely and all that sort of stuff. They've got
great resources and parents.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
And I was going to somebody's taken me literally and say,
you keep referring to a young child as a kid,
which is a baby goat. But as we know in
the English vernacular, it does mean more than one thing
just to put that one to bed. But we always
get we always get a pedantic text or two. Hey Catherine,
Lovely to Lovely to catch up with you. I think
we're gonna have to next time we catch up with
you talk about the old device thing, won't.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
We Yeah, yeah, we give me, give me a good
amount of time for that one. But they sent me
have my ideas, bar can I just quickly plug in
the book, you know, my book. So I've got my
book out selling well, by the way, and it's called
What's going On in There? Is about the adolescent brain.
Does talk about somehow that you know a bit about
how devices impact, but what's going on chemically in their brain?
(37:17):
And it should be in the parenting section of most
of the bookstores in your area.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Good stuff, what's going on in there? By Katherine BURKERTT. Yeah,
there you go. I've just googled it and it's popped
up on with all the good bookshops. Hey, nice to
talk to Catherine.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
All the best, fantastic, Thank you, I got.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Sorry. We'll be back to wrap sport with Kobe Marati
straight after this News Talks EDB.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
A B.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm time Bevers.
Don't forget if you miss any of the hours, you
can go and check out the podcast after six o'clock
then just go to iHeartRadio and they'll be all there
if you just look for the Weekend Collective or go
to news Talk, SAIDB dot co dot z. Now there's
a new report. There's a new report this week which
(01:12):
found that nearly ninety percent of primary schools say that
there's an increasing up that they were reporting that there
were an increasing number of new entrants starting school without
bear basic schools like being toilet trained and being able
to actually just have oral communication schools talk properly. There
were some other sidelines that you know, they didn't recognize
(01:37):
the letters of their own name. And these five year
olds who would would otherwise be capable, but some stage
of their early childhood seems to have been neglected. When
you know, you can't even hold a pencil or identify
as the letters of your own name. So you know,
where does the blame land? When where does the blame
(01:57):
rest with us? And what do we do about it?
What is it? Is it parents distracted by phones? Is
it parents not communityating with their children? It touches on
a little bit. I'm aware that this touches a little
bit on you know, how much we should be involved
with our kids' education, like we discussed last week. But
you know, it's hard not to lay the blame at
the feet of parents. Or is it ecees the early
(02:21):
childhood education lacking in how they prepared children for school?
My guess is no. If you've if you've got the
energy and the enthusiasm to get your child to an
early childhood education center, then you've done something. And I
imagine that this issu would be high outed before that.
But anyway, what do you reckon? O? Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine to nine to two. And
(02:41):
to discuss that and other things we talk regarding education
and parenting. Katherine Burkett as our guest. She's a neuroscience
educator at Engaged Training and she's with us for the
Parents Squad. Catherine, Hello, hello, Tim, how are you?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I'm really good at she on this beautiful sunny Wellington day.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Are you doing You sound like you're sitting out in
your deck or something, just having a having a refreshment
or something. Anyway, have you had a good break.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Oh, I've had an amazing break. I get a fourth
break because people don't want training over Christmas, so I
get a fourth break, which is perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Hey, what was What was your take on the story?
When you hear about kids, you know, heading to start
their first school and they just don't have the basics. Yeah,
I mean it's hard. It's a difficult topic list because
you sort of just want the gut reaction is you
just want to say, what the hell is going on
at home that the kids are turning up there? But
what's your take on this?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah? What's actually a subject I talk a lot about,
especially when I'm training schools and stuff like that, because
it's amazing how much we don't understand that the brain
needs to do the basic things like reading and writing
and recognizing letters and stuff like that. And the crazy
thing is is one of the most important things for
our brain body system to be able to regulate and
(03:57):
learn is literally the move to jump, to twil, to
spin and to sense things. So to have feet into
the water and the mud on the grass. And when
you think about in a general sense ten years ago,
twenty years ago. The difference, that's the stuff we're missing.
I mean, there's so much more to this, but those
are some of the basic things. So we're not doing that,
(04:18):
which means we're not doing the next bit, We're not
doing the next bit, we're not doing the next bit.
So that's the first fundamental thing is move and touch.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So is that saying that the concern is that, I mean,
oh god, I'm you know what, because it's such a
touchy subject. I'm pussy footing around already, but basically saying
that these kids are likely have been far too sedentary
for a start.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
One hundred percent. And by the way, pussy footing around
and stuff that, I get it, I get it. But
I mean I was a single parent right with two
young kids. If I'd had devices available, and I'd had
a device for me and a device for them, I
highly likely would have used it. They look amazing, they
look flash they look like they're teaching our kids heaps.
It looks amazing. We have to teach parents. So we
(05:02):
can't be soft about this because they are literally changing
the way that brains are developing, and they are a
form of neglect now a little bit of it is fine.
You see, I haven't been enjoying myself out on the
deck yet, but I will be having a veno once
I've finished. That's not good for my brain, but it's
in proportion to the good stuff, you see what I mean.
So parents can use devices. I'm not taking them off completely,
(05:24):
but especially with their young ones, we shouldn't have devices
around them. But they're attractive. But what we need to
know is they are taking away fundamental learning that results
in what you're seeing now.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Is it neglect? I mean it, but it's not.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
On purpose, right, it's not on purpose?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, I mean some of it will be, I guess yeah,
But I mean that's the thing that the stats come out.
It seems like from as I mentioned in an introduction,
and as far as we know that, these are children
who are I mean not talking about fetal alcohol syndrome
and things. It's children who would other rot wise if
they'd been given the ride in put bokay, but they
just haven't.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I mean I would have used device. I would have
probably left my kids because you don't have to clean
up to them after them. They're not making a mess,
they're not making a noise. They're very attractive. But what
we have to understand, as kids have to get out
the cardboard boxes to sealitate this is they have to
play with the blocks, they have to run around, they
have to get outside onto the beach, and you know
all of those sorts of things. Those are the things
that are literally building their brains. But we think these devices,
(06:25):
they look like the devices are building their brains, but
what they're doing is stagnating their brains. So we need
to say this because if I was a parent and
I was letting my kid be on advice, I'd want
someone to tell me, even though it might make me
feel a little bit guilty, weird. Whatever, If we don't know,
we can't change, right. So I think this is a
hugely important topic for parents to understand and to start
being aware of.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
But I'm wondering if you're being a bit too hard
on the former, on the imaginary former at Catherine Burkett,
that you would have, you know, defaulted to those devices
because there's been I mean, this is not it's not
news that I mean, intuitively, surely we all parents should
know that Okay, might have stuck that device in front
(07:06):
of your child in the fact and the way that
you might have popped them in front of the TV.
But you know that at some stage you've surely are
you being a bit hard on yourself, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I'm trying to help people put you You're trying.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
To empathize, You're trying to emphasize and put.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yourself in not yeah exactly, And I could like, do
you see? And what I'm saying is they don't look bad,
but our kids are spending hours on these things, even
when we watch TV. Even when I put my kids
in front of the TV, they still ran around, They
still stood on their heads on the couches and went
and got something to wear from the bedroom and come
flying back out. These devices, small devices keep them that sedentary.
(07:42):
Words you said, the more likely are still and they're
more likely to be flicking quickly through things. We're reading
them books off these things. They're not touching books. There's
big clinical study that showed reading kids books, real books
and reading kids exactly the same story on an iPad
or whatever. The brain just did not light up anywhere
near it with the iPad because the kids can't touch
and engage in all of that other stuff. So that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So the cobo cobo and the whatever the other thing.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Is kind one.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So even then, you know, if you're going to buy books,
you should be getting your kids books where they turn
the pages, where they can finger it and ruin the thing.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah. Yeah, And like you said, with kids coming to
school and they don't, we literally have kids who don't
even know what a book is. It's upside doubt. They
don't even they can't even turn pages. You know, they're
swiping books to drain. But what it is is it's
not just that they can't pick up a book, as
their brain is not processing reading, writing letters. And that's
why they can't recognize their name because even if they
(08:42):
can say it on a tablet, they're not like we
had to get in the sand and you draw your letters,
and on the beach you got a stick and you
did all that sort of stuff. That is how the
brain learns through physically interacting through the brain and the body, touching, sensing,
all of that, and we don't respect how important all
of that is. We think it's just the top of
our brain that we need to change. We need to
involve the entire body when we're learning.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So this is I mean how much. I mean, I
know it's not necessarily party or ballpark to sort of
be throwing blame and stuff, but I mean how much
of it is because parents need to kick up the ass.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Sorry, it's parents need to know. Parents need to be
aware of this stuff. And literally it starts at birth,
and it starts in the first few years. And it
starts at like I said, playing in the sand, doing
all these things. That is only And yeah, you might
be taking your child to an early childhood center at
the age of six weeks, which some of them do,
which you know if they are the early childhood center
(09:41):
will be doing everything because I've been trained in this stuff.
But if parents have got kids at home, that is
where it starts, and that is where the responsibility your life.
So it is to do with not doing the right
stuff in the first few years. If your kid can't
read it. And by the way, I'm fine with kids
not reading it five, it's just not recognizing letters is
(10:01):
not okay at five. And that all comes from first year,
second year, not at candy sitting them down reading their name.
Do you see what I mean? It comes from movement, sensory,
all of that stuff in the first few years, so
imagining the responsibility of adults.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I'm not even sure if it's actually an actual
memory of mine, but I seem to remember. One of
the first things that you'd see a lot of the
time is when you know your child starts kindergartener early
childhood education. They're introduced to the class and there'll be
a whiteboard or a blackboard, and the teacher will literally go,
this is Rose and they'll write the name on the board.
(10:37):
Rosc probably the first day, I mean, would I be
imagining that that would be quite very, very common sort
of Hello, here's our new member of the class, and
this is how we write their name.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, And then they talk and they're engaged to do it.
They're asked to do it in a good early childhood
center or let the kid develop as they need to develop,
because we all develop at different times. But given give
I mean, I remember the kids, both my kids, So
Morgan would be there writing letters and writing a name
on things and post them into the imaginary letter box
that they had and all that sort of stuff. Mason
was really close to five before he even got interested
(11:11):
in letters and stuff like that, but he still saw
other people doing it and they are still talking to
him and reading in books and stuff like that. He
was exposed towards, exposed to letters, exposed to books, that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
So is it the heart of this? As I say,
it's very easy from a talkbat radio point of view
to go, oh, look at there's a generation of parents
who are just bloody useless, right, But is it the
heart of this is that we are all our children
are growing up in an environment where it's less obvious
for them to go out and play with a stick
(11:42):
and a ball and a bicycle and a whatever and
dig a hole in the ground. Is it? Because that's
the environment we live in, it's going to be more
likely that there are a percentage of the population who
are going to slip through the cracks and turn up
basically not in being able to toilet themselves.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, because they haven't been to the park. Because they
haven't been there because two options. One is because we
can keep them home and keep them entertained better. Like before,
it was just like I'm going crazy, I need to
get the kids out of the house, right and you
went to the park. Now you don't go crazy because
you put them on a device and they don't make sound.
So do you see what I mean? There was that
tension in my house was like, oh, my goodness, we
(12:18):
need to go to the library, we need to go
to the park because I'm going insane with these kids
in the house. Do you see what I mean? So
there was that tension that made us do it. But
it's also some of the ways we're parenting now and
much you know, less people around, so we're doing everything ourselves.
So there's so many aspects of our life that are
changing that are increasing the likelihood that our kids are
(12:40):
not getting out about moving sensing and it's as simple
as that. It feels too simple, but it's a fundamental
basis of how we become a human and learn and
activate brain cells.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So that's an interesting thought in terms of what we
want parents to start doing with the kids and when.
But as I mean, when, when when should parents show
some curiosity about this stuff as well? Though, because you
do you know, we're not talking about someone turning up
(13:12):
at the age of two or three. We're talking about
them and turning up at the age of five.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Are when baby is born, we play peekaboo, we do
run around the guard and we then we get them
into jigsaws and stuff like that. All of that stuff
is learning resilience, is learning emotional regulation. And then we
go to the park, I said, then we learn balance,
and we learn crossing midlines, and we track things, and
we move our eyes from side to side, and we
move them into distance and back in because we're outside,
and all of those things help us read. And what
(13:41):
we don't understand, as parents might say, oh, I'm giving
them a device and they're learning to read off at device.
They now can't see distance and refocus their eyes properly,
so they can't focus on the letters. There's all of
these things we know absolutely through research. Like I said,
they're underpinn it. So it's just having fun and playing
with our kids in the real world. It's not rocket science,
(14:03):
but it needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Actually, now you mentioned that you were talking about the
kindles and the cobos and stuff, and of course, if
you are genuinely getting your child interests in reading, there's
no way that the book that you are that they
should be reading is even really on a kindle. I
mean The Hungry Caterpillar, and I mean a lot of
I think of all the books that our kids read,
and they're all tactile. You know that the hungry caterpillar
(14:25):
and the I mean we're going on a bear hunt.
That's not so tactile. But you know the idea of
giving that, you know, getting the kid to child, kid,
I shouldn't say you a kid that to read on
a device to me does feel like anathema because you know, books,
It's part of the color of your children's life, isn't it.
I mean books lying around the place a lot and
reading them at bedtime.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, like I said. And then you know, I've got
videos of my daughter reading with some things and she's
turning page. She hasn't got a clue what the words say,
but she's turning the pages and saying something to do
with the picture that she remembers, you know. And that's
getting excited about things, touching, things being in that moment.
That's that's what parents need to do. Like I said,
it's not it's not doing the latest science and doing
(15:10):
some big flash things. It's literally letting them get their
shoes off in the mud that will help them recognize letters.
It's it's it's as fundamental as that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
How do pairent, sorry, how did schools dig in? I
mean gosh. I mean it's funny. I think of the
number of things that we put on to schools and
teachers to sort out. Where do where do schools begin
to work out why a why a young a child
(15:39):
is so far behind the eight ball? Because you know,
there's obviously the worst reasons is neglect and we get
sifts involved. The other reasons are simply, you know, some
very poor choices and a lack of engagement and tactile
things and activity. How where do schools where do they
go with this?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well? I mean that obviously having to learn pretty quickly,
and that's what I do. I train schools around the stuff.
But they have access to things like result teacher Learning
of Behavior and SEINGOS. They have those sorts of resources there.
But the thing is, as if your kid comes in
like that, what are we doing. We've got things like
sexual Motor program which we actually get kids crawling and
throwing things and tracking like they literally do things that
(16:21):
babies toddlers should be doing, and that can advance them
into being able to read faster. But it's not about
teaching them to read, it's about literally getting them out moving. Yes,
we see their responses that is que Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's quite fascinating, isn't it. I mean, because you instantly
just think, well, they're not reading, let's get them in
front of some books. But the answer is so much
more than that. It's about, you know, getting them on
the on the jungle gym and the digging around in
the sand pit and all sorts of things and getting
them moving hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Even with christ Church, when all of this stuff was
going on in christ Church with the ongoing earthquakes, and
we found the kids were really entering school really low
ability because of the stress they've been after under schools
in christ Church were allowed to do tefadiki curriculum for
another six months, which is literally play. It's the one
we use in early childhood. So they understood that there
(17:11):
had to be six more months of play before we
started the actual school curriculum. So that's the sort of
stuff that we're looking at now. Schools are recognizing that
when kids come in with all the stuff this article
is talking about, which by the way, is not new,
It's been happening for years. The slow creep into this
stuff we talk and that's what I train in is
understanding the fundamentals, the brain science behind we need play
(17:35):
before we can teach, and it just it doesn't work
any other way.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So this is something that's been going on for a while.
It's just got worse.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Basically one hundred percent. I've been saying this. I would
have been talking about kids coming to school not being
able to toilet for a good two and a half
three years now, yep, because we've known the numbers are increasing. Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Okay, two and a half three years. Devices have been
around for a long time before that. What will what
about you know, pre let's go pre COVID at least,
I guess, because over it always seems to be one
of those barriers. What was it? What was it like?
You know, going back seven eight.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Years, I couldn't say that that was it was on
my radar back then. But yeah, that's not a scientifically no, No,
that's Catherines, that's Catherines info. Yeah, okay, I think COVID
changed a lot because COVID means we couldn't get kids
to the park and we couldn't let them touch things,
and we couldn't you know, I mean we had to
(18:29):
do that. So there was that, but we can now
we're blaming it on COVID it's actually devices now that
are maintaining the issue we saw, but it was a
definite steroid of the issue when we went into for
some people, when we went into this lockdown space.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, okay, look, we love your calls on this, and look,
it is a difficult issue because you know, there there
are you know, children who are not learning turning up
to school with the requisite skills. The oral language skills
are insufficient. They can't write their name, they can't toilet themselves,
and forgetting, there's no way any near reading. They can't
(19:07):
even recognize the letters of their name. We'd love your
response to that story. But also, you know, what are
the steps that you have taken as a parent to
make sure that your kids are up up to scratch?
But do these up to scratch? All these my languagees
are very clumsy this afternoon, But you know what I mean,
we'd love your calls on this, if you'd like to
show your thoughts on this on eight hundred eighty ten eighty,
(19:29):
because I must admit part of me sort of feels
a level of despair about this that the parents, for
whatever reason haven't got their kids ready for school. And
you know what, hope there is twenty six past five.
My guest is Katheryn Burkeott. The number is eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty. We'll be back in just a moment, Yes,
the new Welcome back. We're with Katherine Burkett. She's a
neuroscience educator and discussing the problem of kids. You know,
(19:53):
some children who are in ninety percent of Auckland schools,
nearly ninety percent of Auckland primary schools say there are
an increasing number of new entrants starting school without the
bear basic schools like being toilet train, talking properly, and
even recognizing the letters of their own name. And I
guess the question is, you know, how do we what
(20:14):
things can we do as a society to improve this? Anyway,
taking your cause with Catherine Philip.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Hello, Hey, Tobe, how's to go?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Good mate?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Good cool?
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Cool?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Hey, I'm my oldest single dad. I mean like I'm older,
but I just got a nine year old. Wow, I'm
sixty years old. I've got a nine year old right,
all right? But anyway, anyway, I just found loving her
getting out throwing like when she went to pre school.
We score at kindergarten, right, pre school? Whatever? They can't
(20:46):
believe her advance was because I taught her how to throw, catch, bet, run,
pick out, throw, you know, just those basic skills was incredible.
The way she picked up on learning new things, you know,
I think it gave them their head start and just games,
and she didn't really pick up on vices tills. You
went to school, which good job.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
What's what's your reaction to these?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Do you believe?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Do you also see as a single dad, can you
see how it might you might have got it wrong
or is it just to you incomprehensible.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
It's incomprehensible because I think, for a start, you've got
to love your child, and you've got to engage with
your child, and you basically you don't talk down to them.
You get down on your level, you know. I found that,
like I go to school and help out with games
and stuff, when I always get on my knees, get
down low and talk with them at that level.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
But I think a lot of parents they talk down
tickets and looking up at someone talking to you down,
it's like a pretty negative experience.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
It reminds me of when I went to school, you know.
But we got the strength and the.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Cane and all that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
My tactiles.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
You know, I never get the first time you said
I'm going to make jimjo a sergeant.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
What the hell is sergeant?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
I found out it was three strikes. The beds they
lasted for a month a month?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah? What about what about stuff? What did you do
as a parent? You where you are on your own
quite early with your child?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Who mother committed to stuff? When a half and the
day before Christmas is found your hanging by a knit.
It's just one of those sets, right, Sorry, Sorry, I
didn't miscut there.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And I'm really I'm very sorry to hear that, Philip.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
No, no, I know, because it was the worst part
of my life, in the fifth part of my life,
which was having a great daughter, you know, and we're
just thrive together. That's amazing, you know. And I think
you just got to love your child. You really do
have to love your child and wants to be engaged with.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, you know, No, No, I appreciate your calls, Philip,
and I am very sorry to hear that. That's but
you know, I don't know what to say to that, actually, Catherine.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's what's happened on live radio. But
the point that Philip hat which is absolutely perfect. Is
how simple it is. But do you know it isn't
rocket science exactly as they're saying, and it is getting
out there. So when she's when his daughter's throwing things,
her hand eye coordination, her knowing her body, so she
(23:29):
can feel her body as she throws a ball. Then
when she gets excited or she gets scared, she can
feel that. Like what we don't understand, like I keep saying,
is that what he was doing was just normal hangout,
play with your kid. But it builds the foundation of learning,
and that is what we are not doing so well anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well, is there something, I mean, how do we fix this?
Because you obviously this is an area you've been involved
with her for a bit. But is there anything that
we this I'm interrupting myself because it sounds like, you know,
we look for the government or something, you know, But
what is what can we as a society do or
(24:08):
are they just parents who are going to slip through
the crack, who are just you know, following the example
of their parents. Then they're just not ready to be parents.
They've got no comprehension of the needs of that little
person in their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Yeah, I don't. I believe that, and I see it
as this lack of connection in our community. Right, Like
when I was a parent and you sort of get
to know your neighbors, you were hanging out with the
other kids, and you're talking to other kids all yours
And when I, like, I walk Lyle Bay Beach a
lot with a dog, and I literally make a point
of if there's young kids on the beach and they're
in the water, I interact, Hey, I'll call jumping the
(24:41):
waves or something like that, because I want lots of
different people to be talking to the kids, and I
want them to experience that and have fun. And I
often will go over to parents and go, oh, my goodness,
it's so cool to see you out here digging in
the sand. And I'll say hi to the cat.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Like if we were a community and if our kids
had lots of other people, so Philip was in my neighborhood,
he would have taken my kids. I wasn't that active, right,
Being a single mum was a little bit different, and
so Philip was in my neighborhood, would have said. I went, hey,
can you just grab my kids and hang out with
them for a bit to take them throw the ball
in the pack, do you see? And if we were
more like that, then it wouldn't be on each parent
(25:15):
on their own and we would do a better job collectively.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
By the way, just not wanting to be trivial. Did
you say playing and digging and swimming in La Bay?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah? Not today.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I'll tell you what. Saw someone digging around in Larby.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not doing about today.
Other times, I know, I couldn't even take my dog
to the beach, to the poor old park. It was like,
poor things, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It's go there, let's not go we did. But you
mentioned l Bae, not me.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Past. I've seen kids digging and playing in the waves
in Milbay. Not today. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Actually it's funny, it does. I mean it always plays
into the discussion around digital devices and social media. But
I did notice that the PR person for Meta was here.
I think she was interviewed on Mike's show, and she
was saying that the ban on social media was too
simplistic and stuff, and I'm thinking, I don't know, you know,
(26:13):
I'm not hearing much. I'm not hearing much in the
conversations around our kids where we go. Let's they need
more device time.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, we can leave that for ez of it for
another time, because I've got deep and big opinions about
teenage social media stuff. But if I could talk to
this subject, what I talk to audience about is literally,
if I was going to make any social any device rules,
it's under seven, no small devices for our kids, and
no small devices in the hands of any adult who's
(26:43):
near a child under seven. That would change the world,
because we're literally teenagers are affecting their behavior by using devices.
Babies and toddlers and little ones are affecting the development
of their brain by being on these things, like physically
affecting their brain, and we don't know how much we
can change back.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Do we need to have more? There's also to me,
it seems to be screaming that, but there are a
lot of parents who are just not simply they just
don't know what what in being a parent means and
they're just not ready on any level. So this child
comes along, and you know what I mean, I mean,
(27:22):
do we need to do more with you know, sitting
people down and saying, right, you've got a parent, you've
got a child on the way, You know, here's a
give them some basics understanding on how their child is
or isn't going to develop as a result of the
care they get on that.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
When I used to work for Brainwave Trust, if you know,
for many years ago, we're still around Brainwave Trust, where
their research showed absolutely once someone gets pregnant, the couple
gets bring it. They do not want to know anything
about anything except for the birth. So we can't train
people when they get it's six to eight weeks later.
Then we can start talking to them and we could
do those things. But do you know what we could
do is create more collective grandparents, you know, like older
(28:01):
grandparents around helping out because they are the ones that
have been there, done that, and they understand, they've got
more patience with our kids. If we just did that,
that's a lot more than trying to teach parents, especially
these days, because parents are by the way, we do
have more likely two parents working or one parent on
their own and working. We also have an increase in eurodiversity,
we have an increase in different behaviors in there. So
(28:24):
I by the way, all of this stuff coming into
school is not only parental, some of it's genetic, but
the majority of it parental, but there is genetic sort
of spaces there as well.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
It's funny because if I was to talk about a
takeaway from what your earlier remarks were as well, it
was just that it's not about necessarily I mean, of
course that is important to sit down and read with
your child and all that, but it was the comments
you made around just tactile movement, you know, playing with sticks,
shaping things, getting your hands dirty, tumbling, rolling around, physical activity,
(28:56):
just all part of that. Just don't let your kids
be sedentry.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
And that's what I'm saying because people think, oh, to
make my kid read, I'll give them a device and
get them on this device reading learning things. So by
the time they get no, that's not they're not going
to learn it. They're not going to do it. And
in these days, let's be real, it's more likely that
we might stop our kids going out and playing in
the mud and playing outside and running on the grass
because we're a little bit more worried about stuff like that.
(29:21):
But I promise you we're doing more damage than about
that than maybe a little bit of you know, like
they've got some dirt in their mouth or something like that.
That is not going to hurt them, but we are
damaging their brains by not getting them out and doing
all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah right, let's take take some more calls.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Clarie, Hello, Yes, could I just calling about the fact
that I own a school over in the Philippines with
my partner. I'm calling for New Zealand actually, and we're
called the bride Kids Learning and Tutorial Acade of Me
(29:58):
uh huh corporate.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And what I added, do you teach three to five?
Uh huh? And what what?
Speaker 3 (30:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
What would you like to offer us as your.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Well, I'd like to offer the fact that by the
time these young ones go to school primary school are
level one at or sorry it's level three, I think
it is at primary school. They can already write their name,
they can already say the alphabet, they can already count
(30:29):
to one hundred. The ones that we have that are
three year olds we have for two years. They go
to the primary school once they've reached five years of age.
The ones we have at four, we have for a year,
and they learn quite a lot in one year.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
So are you saying that the Philippines wouldn't have these
sorts of problems for some reason that.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Or not.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
What problems the problems with parents not being able to
teach their kids or anything. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
No, I'm just asking what you're you know, you're saying,
what what what you're witnessing with these kids being well.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
Prepared so well they are where.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
They go right?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And where are we going wrong? Is what I mean?
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Well, so we're going wrong anywhere. It's we need to
get more of these schools going perhaps. I don't know
if there's any in New Zealand at the moment, but
they called pre school schooling.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, I mean we do have early child on education,
I guess, but yeah, I mean that's yeah, Catherine, did
you have something you want to contribute there?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
No, yeah, we do have a CES. And and by
the way, I train a lot of e c s
as well, and one of the issues with e CES
is is parents restricting how much e c s can
do with the kids and how much taxtics and how
much movement and stuff like that. So there's a little
bit in there as well. So pre school different to
e c I just called them early child kind anything
(32:02):
that you're chucking it, yeah, just struck it all in
one big I don't differentiate what our kids go before school.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I still love the name kindergarten, which is I think
we stole that from the Germans, didn't we kindergarten?
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Anyway, Hey, look, we'll be back in I think so. Yes, anyway,
let's not have the semantic debate, but we'll be back
in just a minute. It's eighteen and a half minutes
to six News Talks. He'd be yes, just a few
more minutes with Katherine Burker. Let's have a look at
some texts. Katherine just talking about kids not turning up
(32:39):
to school with the basics, with the basics basically being
able to toilet and talk and et cetera. Says that's
an interesting one. Says for some parents it's ignorance or
lack of effort. But please bear in mind that some
are so worn down by low play, higher rent, long
travel times between home and working out a suburbs, as
well as inflation putting the essentials out of reach. Some
parents are time and energy poor as well as a
(33:01):
resource poor. I'm well off now, but I remember what
it's like to strike.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, and that's a huge point. Owen, and I feel that,
and I've sort of mentioned, you know, like we but
if we live, if we parented collectively, because we're not
supposed to do this on our own, it's impossible. Do
you know. Anthropological research shows that the most healthy relational
basis is to have four to one, and that's four
adults per child up to the age of six. If
(33:27):
you look at tribes that still live really naturally and
historically how we live naturally four adults per child. So
Owen's exactly right. We shouldn't have one parent to sometimes
four children. So it is difficult. Absolutely, we need to
change how we collectively parent.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And this one says Tim, this conversation makes me sad
and very grateful that my wife did all this when
I was working maybe with parents or working. The grandparents
are an asset we need to use, I mean, two
parents working as a challenge for our society. It's just
it's it is a challenge. It's no other way to
put it. Yeah, And I don't imagine back in the
(34:04):
days where you know, for whether for whatever reason, where
there was far more stay at home parents, let's be honest,
mostly mums. I don't imagine these problems existed in nearly
the way that they do these days.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
No, and like Philip. Yeah, And like Philip says, it's
because you got out and you did things, and like
I'm saying, there was that pressure to get out, get
into the fresh air. It's just that that's not the
natural way of doing things now. But we have to
respect that that wasn't just play, wasn't just fun. It
was literally brain building.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Another one says, I know someone who has been a
new entrant teacher for many years. She told me the
children are coming from many early childhood centers having been
taught bugger or they just play most of the day. Well,
funnily enough, playing most of the days not the worst,
is it? Is it?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
It's not. No, it's not. And our ecs know that.
And if they've got a kid who's already behind, they're
going to have to play for a couple of years
because that will be more likely to get them there.
But then when they hit school, they've still got that
expectation that at five day will be able to So
we've got to stop this expectation that at five we're
going to have this amazing brain that can sit down
and read. And by the way, that's not normal to
(35:11):
in a brain tour about seven to be able to
read to be quite honesty. So there's a lot of
that stuff that's wrong as well expectations of our kids.
But yeah, playing is actually and by the way, most ecs,
most kindy's will know how play, how to play in
the right way. Do you see what I mean? They're
not just playing. If you win and actually ask them
why they're doing that stuff, they could probably tell you
(35:33):
the neurological basis of why they're playing in the sandpit
and what they've set up to do them to balance
today or to do that. So it might look like
play to you, but it's probably highly expert stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
By the way, somebody's message saying, come on, guys, it's
mostly immigrants with English as a second language. I'm going
to put my money on where my mouth is and
say I think that's nonsense. I don't think it's about
that at all. It's about what would you say to that, Catherine.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It's not it's regular children, like you said, absolutely, we
know that we're going to have some young people that
are going to be more likely to have though difficulties starting,
but the kids we would expect to be on the
same stage, and as we've seen it with our own eyes, a.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Couple more text One says we did a four month
anti nadul class that came with a three month post
natal class. That's when they covered early education, the importance
of books, et cetera. Through the Parents Center. Well on the.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Parents Center, talk about let's up the parents Center everybody.
They've got great online resources, by the way, with using
devices safely and all that sort of stuff. They've got
great resources and parents.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
And I was going to somebody's taken me literally and say,
you keep referring to a young child as a kid,
which is a baby goat. But as we know in
the English vernacular, it does mean more than one thing
just to put that one to bed. But we always
get we always get a pedantic text or two. Hey Catherine,
Lovely to Lovely to catch up with you. I think
we're gonna have to next time we catch up with
you talk about the old device thing, won't.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
We Yeah, yeah, we give me, give me a good
amount of time for that one. But they sent me
have my ideas, bar can I just quickly plug in
the book, you know, my book. So I've got my
book out selling well, by the way, and it's called
What's going On in There? Is about the adolescent brain.
Does talk about somehow that you know a bit about
how devices impact, but what's going on chemically in their brain?
(37:17):
And it should be in the parenting section of most
of the bookstores in your area.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Good stuff, what's going on in there? By Katherine BURKERTT. Yeah,
there you go. I've just googled it and it's popped
up on with all the good bookshops. Hey, nice to
talk to Catherine.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
All the best, fantastic, Thank you, I got.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Sorry. We'll be back to wrap sport with Kobe Marati
straight after this News Talks EDB.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk SEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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