March 28, 2026 • 37 mins
Social media giants Meta and YouTube have been found liable for deliberately designing their platforms to be addictive.
We don't need to look too far into the details of this specific trial, because parents everywhere will have stories of their own to some extent, but how much of the blame falls on the parents? There are countless things in the modern world that young people risk becoming addicted to - they don't even have to appear sinister. Food, sugar, video games, any number of apps - social media or otherwise.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb Brother, you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Don't have.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Oh god shuther you cut tomorrow? Then you still got
the news from game Brother you don't have them.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yes, So welcome back or welcome into the Weekend Collective.
I'm Tim Beverage. We want your calls. This is the
Parents Squad and the number, of course is o E
one hundred and eighty ten eighty in text nine nine
two and look big news. This week social media giants
Meta and YouTube were found liable for Google should I
(01:01):
say in YouTube, we're found liable for deliberately designing the
platforms to be addictive. Now, look, you don't have to
go too far into the details of this specific trials,
because parents everywhere will have stories to their own to
some extent. One of the things that did pop out
to me was that I heard that the plaintiff, as
a young person, had been spending up to sixteen hours
(01:23):
a day on it. And I have to be honest,
you know, it's a very easy to have a whiplash reaction,
but I did have a whiplash reaction of like, well,
where the hell were her parents, what were they doing?
What were they doing in electing her to that extent
that they she was spending that amount of time sixteen
hours a day up to But I mean then again,
I mean how much blame does fall on the parents
should she have been suing them anyway? I don't want
(01:45):
to not going to let Meta off the hook, by
the way, but because that might actually just be a
separate question on you know, what other factors are at stake,
and they talk about you know, Meta have talked about
the other addictive things that they're available for teenagers. But
of course, if they are designing their apps to addict
the user, that's why they're in trouble and as they
(02:08):
should be. So look, yeah, there are countless things in
the modern world that young people can be become addicted to.
I mean there's sugar for a start, video games, any
number of apps, social media or otherwise. So when it
comes to addiction of this nature, well there's the simple
question to what extend appearents to blame? But also what
(02:30):
tools can parents give their children? What tools can we
give children to recognize and therefore hopefully resist addiction or
is it simply just put down the phone Let us
know what you think on eight hundred eighty ten to
eighty text nineteen nine two. The simple question is will
you pleased when you heard about this verdict? Okay, they're
(02:51):
going to appeal. It's not the last time we're going
to be talking about it. But so far the jury
has come back and said, you guys have designed this
stuff to addict our children. So what are your thoughts? Oh,
eight hundred eighty ten x nine two nine two joining us,
I think is a pretty good fit for this conversation.
I would imagine he's a neuroscience education educator and it's
(03:14):
Nathan Wallace. Gooday, Nathan, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Jo? Pretty well? Mate?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Hell?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 4 (03:19):
What did you reaction to this bit of news about
meta surprise? No, I was a surprise surprise that they
that they pointed it out. I mean surprised at the verdict.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Inevitable, like if when you have to stay up up
to date with all of that current research on that,
like I do with my job, you can see that pattern.
You can see they were being deceptive, you can see
they were being dishonest, and I think it's very akin
to like the article said about the smoking cigarette thing.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, once they started.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Out naively enough, but then they found out, oh, it's
actually coming to people. So instead of being responsible, they went,
let's start a you know, just to deceive and to
hide that.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And I think that's a similar thing that's happened.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
They may have started out just because, like you say,
a lot of media is designed to be addictive.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
That's the whole point of it. Well, that's what advertising is.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Well, the Facebook thing was just a university sort of
thing to connect students with each other. And I mean
Zuckerberg in the early stages, I don't think he thought
let's set out to try and addict people. He thought,
let's try and come up with something cool that connect people.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
And it's the nature of the economy.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Is the way the economy works in terms of competition
and numbers, and you know, it's not run by morals,
it's run by you know, financial success.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Actually, sorry, I'm timing there on my interjection. The thing,
you know, the thing that to me, you know, there's
always little bits of information or things that stand out
that make you think all they're in trouble on this one.
And the one that always did it for me was
the fact that the fact or from what I heard
(04:49):
that Zuckerberg didn't allow his own kids to have phones
and social media, and that if you went to his house,
you know, everything was checked at the door. There were
no phone And I thought, if he's not letting his
kids access it, what.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Does he know that we don't speaks volumes? And he's
not the only one, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I've seen articles about a lot of the leaders and
the tech industry, you know, the people that are aware
and do know have the same rules for their kids.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So yeah, just as an adult, I was asking myself,
are there things that I get addicted to? There's been
the odd video game I've got addicted to when I
was younger, and there's probably a couple of silly things
that I probably spend maybe a few more minutes and
every day that I should have. You have you recognized
things that have dragged you intention Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I think you wouldn't be human unless you had. I
suppose we have to define exactly what addiction is. A yes,
because you can allow yourself to play video games all
summer because you can because you've got no kids, and
you know whatever, and you allow yourself to do that's
not necessarily addiction. It's just indulging you know, people go
out and drink, you know, and drink more than they should,
(05:54):
but they only do it, you know, occasionally, so it's
not seen as you have to define what addiction is.
I think an addiction is their ability to take away choice
where they take away choice.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
There's so there's a difference between and well about indulging
in something and being addicted to it, because well, when you're.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
In control of something and you're consciously choosing to indulge,
that is different than I can't stop this, I need help.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Does one lead to the other?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, absolutely, and then you can't.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
If you weren't indulging in the first place, you wouldn't
suddenly found yourself in a place where you're addicted to it.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So yeah, one does lead to the other.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But you know, more people in the world indulging in
alcohol than there are alcoholics. More people indulge in all
of those things, sugar, you know, internet, everything, There's more
people that indulge in it without developing addiction. I think
the key thing in this case is that they are
marketing it at children, because it's almost like once you're
over eighteen, legally you're saying, as you should have the
smarts to work that out and know when to stop.
(06:51):
But children don't have that part of their brain develops,
you know, that's why we have laws protecting them.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Well, I think it's hard enough for adult, it's hard
enough for ult Yes, right, I mean, there's a silly
little game I'm playing on the food line sometimes and
look probably fifteen twenty minute. It's maybe, But I've caught
myself a couple of times getting to bed a bit
late because I went on, just one more, just one more.
And that's why I recognized. I thought, okay, no, And
now I see it as something I've got a you know,
(07:16):
I've discovered or something. Yeah, but I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's interesting. One, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
In the research on human development, the number one thing
that determines how successful a human is, because there has
to be a number one when the measure everything possible
in the research, the one thing that determines how successful
a human being is more than any other single factor
is their ability to self control.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And that's exactly way you're describing.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Just then, when you got to recognize the behavior just
one more, just one more, and you got all that's
not healthy. I'm going to exert control over that behavior.
And that's self control, and I'm going to make myself
not do the one more. You know, I have a
system that's the opposite of addiction, and a children's brains
find that much harder to do it because again that
part of the front or cortets that regulates those emotions,
because you know, all the dopamine and stuff hitting a system.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Can you just dig into us? You know, we hear
the word dopamine, yeah a lot, And sometimes I found
myself using the word and I have to stop and go, okay,
explain it to us how that actually work, what it doesn't,
how it works.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's fascinating because we are like as human beings, we're
basically just little dopamine jokies.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
All that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, if something feels good, you released openly, you know,
so you want to do that thing again, and so yeah,
that's our whole experience of love. But they've got lots
of neurotransmitters, you know, serotonin section mood. But dopamine is
a reward system. So something that gives you dopamine, they
want to do it again. In fact, when they do
experiments on rats, you know, because enamals as well, a
(08:44):
lot of their brain similar to ours. They have the
same emotional olympic system that drives addiction. When they put
them with rats with a cage and they've got cocaine,
access to cocaine they've got, and they've got access to food,
they end out just taking the cocaine until they die.
I don't even eat as well. They just take the
cocaine until they die. Because that's how our systems are
wired because an evolutionary history that served us really well.
(09:06):
You never had a leaver that just gave him all
the day and maybe you wanted yet to hope for
it and work for it, and it took a.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Lot of effort.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So you've been set up to sort of now screens
at least more dopamine than anything else we will have
ye so now you don't have to do anything to
get that dope wine.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And so that's part of my screen.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
So dopamine itself is not bad because so for instance today,
and I was sure I'll repeat myself a little bit
from earlier hours, but I went I got up early
and went for a first time I've been early in
the morning and gone for a bike ride. And so
I felt mildly virtuous But then what happened is I
took my daughter to a hockey practice and I chipped
(09:46):
in because there was a sort of informal thing the
coach had arranged. The sun came out, we're helping out,
the kids were having a great time, and as we're
driving home, a daughter said, God that I really I've
had a great morning, Daddy, And so had I. And
we were obviously flooded with dopamine because the sun had
been shining, and we had exercise and enjoyed each other's company,
some laughter with good people. That's good. That's good dopamine.
(10:10):
That'll make me want to do it next week. Yeah,
And is that the trick to an unhealthy addiction is
finding those other things that give you that pad.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think of it as like short term and long
term openly, because the long terms openly, you know, as
it relates to that self controls just talking about when
you make yourself get up and go for that bike ride.
You know that self control and that that has accumulative effect.
You don't necessarily feel so great well you're doing the
bike running, but you get you get the long trim
(10:44):
rewards because not only in the brain chemistry that it's
releasing all these positive peptides and hormones for a long
time afterwards.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So physically you get.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
The benefit, but you get the almost emotional spiritual benefit
of knowing, Oh good I am being my high self.
I did follow through on my promise this morning. You
feel a weay bit better about yourself physically if you've
waken up your muscles and stretched your body and stuff,
so you feel a bit in your body's that's all
long term, don Whereas the other time of dopaminciate of
addiction is that short term stuff get it right now,
(11:12):
it's actually bad for you at the long term. So
sugar so closer example, you get instant it from sugar
straight away. The chocolate cake feels good right now, basically
if it feels If it feels good right now, that's
the stuff we have to be careful of. If the
benefits are not going to be until later, that's the
stuff we have to aspire to.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
So is that I mean, because one of the questions
you know, we've got to dig into is how you
give your kids the tools to resist those sorts of
unhealthy short terms do mean? It's we get from social
media and you.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Show them basically you do it yourself, not.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
As you say.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So well, I mean, how do you because naively I
say naively because I don't assume this is the answer.
But I would hope that. See, my daughter's had a
great time, you know, he's very lucky. She's got an
inspiring coach. She makes everything fun. So she's going to
want to turn up to practice again because that's what's
(12:13):
giving her a reward. But she wouldn't have felt that
in the early stages. But that is that One of
the major antidotes we've got to this sort of stuff
is it's not just keeping them busy, but it's finding
them things where they are getting that long term sense of.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Reward so much so much that you did right. It's
not for a start, you know, I'm learning a musical instrument.
There's hours of teen years boring stuff that we don't
want to do until you're the cool guy that can
play the I'm going to say that because I'm envious
with people that can play music and instrument icons and
I've tried to dedicate time, you know, to start, and
never had the.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Perseverits so to care. I mean, I've learned another language.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I'm proud of that that toil perseverance, because that's the
saying that's really hard work. You feel, really you have
to keep making yourself go. Then once you have another language,
the whole the world opens up and multiple worlds open up.
Had no idea, it's so rewarded it. But man, it
was a lot of hard work for us, save as
a musical instrument.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
So I mean, so how look, I mean, people do
it all the time. We do it all the time
with our kids. We introduce them to things and ideas
and challenges and stuff. But I guess that's the thing
is you need. And I can see why we're sport.
You know, there's that move to look there the competitive
kids who want to keep scoring. But in the early days,
you know, if the kids are going to be losing
(13:30):
all the time, that's not a mean it for them.
So they've got to find those moments where.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
They they need that support.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know, the story that you talked about taking your daughter,
it's not just a coach and a good coach and
playing with the team and so she had dad. They're
supporting her, being proud of her, and you know that
just makes such a huge difference. So I think, especially
at the start of things, the start of playing a
musical instrument and start the spport. The more you scaffold
around them and try and make that enjoyable to get
them through that period. We look at brain chemistry, it
(13:59):
looks like, you know, to form a habit before it
becomes a user's quite a different part of the brain.
When we're rest learning something that's at the very front
of the brain, it takes a lot of effort. I mean,
I think of a simple example, like learning to tell
your shoes. When your first time to tell your shoes,
that's at the front of your brain. You're trying really hard,
and you're straining away, and it seems it's really hard work.
Now can you use a You can just tie your
shoes without even thinking about it because it's been moved
(14:20):
to the back of the brain into a different place,
more procedural memory. So to get things out of that
first and into a habit. It's hard to put a
number on that, but one that comes up all the
time is we think it's about ninety Most behavior change
programs are about three months long. You usually have got
someone beside you for the first three months to get
all those but it's actually about laying miling down on
(14:40):
your neural pathways. But it's basically you justually someone to
support you, to encourage you through because your limbic emotional
brain and the dopamine don't want you to do it
for that first three minutes because you're not getting much
reward for you know, you're putting on a lot of effort,
you're not getting a lot of doper meat, so you
don't want to do it. Your emotions aren't invested. If
you've got someone supporting you, there are supporting you after
you through.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
That just makes it so much easier.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So that's quite I think supporting behavior change programs are
three months long.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Indeed, their support for a starter.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Wow, see at the heart of it. And I don't
really want to talk back to be about, you know,
having a crack at parents and stuff, because I mean,
it's an easy thing to do. But then you know,
parents have kids and parents have a responsibility to look
after their children. Because to me, at the heart of
it is the heart of it. God, that sounds so pompous.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I like how yourself reflect like that. It lays the
conversation work because it's not clear.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
It's not clear, so what seems to be a themes
is that if you need lecture kids and you're not
keeping in tabs on them, it's not just a case
of what are you doing on your phone? It's about
involved being. I mean, it seems to me to be
obvious if you can't that the challenge for parents is
(15:53):
to be in active in their kids. Are the pursuits
where they're supporting them in the early stages. You know,
you're turning up to watch them play football or whatever,
or do whatever they're doing. But if you're not there,
then well there's stage one of them falling into the
short term head of the phones and their apps, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I mean I can't help but feel defensive of parents,
like I agree with what you're saying. I send that
sixteen hours and you know, and I have the same
to the judgment that comes into my head. But I'm
a middle child, so you know, I'm in the middle of five,
and middle children always going to see things from other prospectives.
You to see it from the one, And I literally
thought those parents might not know that she's on it
(16:32):
for sixteen hours a day because it's not necessarily it's
sitting in front of the computer for sixteen hours, that
she's going to be online for sixteen hours. But she's
just learned online all the time. But so the parents
won't necessarily know there's a big problem. It's also historical
because that girl's how old is?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
She announced that she's twenty now.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's only in the last sort of five years that
public had been made to even aware that this is
going to be a detrimental thing. A lot of people
would have. I mean, my youngest is just turning twenty seven,
so I missed out on him to do a lot
of that, damn goodness. And they had cell phones, but
there wasn't so much the social media stuff. And I
did have boundaries and roles, so and we're exposed to
(17:09):
the research. But I'm just saying a lot appearance then
just eavenly thought that well it was bad for them,
they wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
And so yeah, I think that it can be easier
for her.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
You know, that might be as well.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Of course, Yeah, I also think, really, you know, it's
super defensively. I think, you know, here's a company that
makes multi billions of dollars off us that is deliberately
targeting to our children, and our conversation wants to go
to sort of putting responsibility on the people that have
made no money from those children, having rested hundreds of
thousand dollars in those kids, and want nothing but the
best for their children. So I'm hesitant to blame I
(17:45):
think you. At the same time, I'm not validating the
parents that let their kids spend sixteen hours on the
internet are doing something wrong.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But yeah, I agree, and I said, in a way,
it is a side it's not a side issue. It's
an issue that does nothing to It does nothing to
let those companies off the hook, because it's a bit like, okay,
so you haven't kept an eye an eye an I
and your kids, and somehow they've fallen on them in
the thrall of a I don't know, somebody's introduced into
(18:16):
alcohol or something, and that person it doesn't you know,
the fact that you wish you'd intervened earlier or something
doesn't let the person off the hook who's hurting them.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I just remember too that you know now that my
kids are alloys and we have the conversation, I thought
i'd manage the phone and stuff really well.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
They were.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
They had to hand the phones and we had a
two hour a day device free time because I was
aware of the research, and I don't think most parents were,
but it was part of my job. I knew that
if kids come from a household with there's only two hours,
but they're not allowed to use the phone, I'm not
allow to use any screen, then they don't develop the psychology.
And that says, I've got to be connected to it
all the time. The need's had two hours a day
to regular time. So that was my kids and they
(18:54):
had to hand in there. They had to give me
their cell phone at nine o'clock at night. Yeah, I
had an hour before they went to bed. It was
one of the old teenagers and they could, you know,
because I knew you needed an hour off it to
sort of wind down.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
And then they were allowed during the night.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And when they're adults, all the youngest one, the others
two have told me they had spear cell phones that
they just after they went to bed, and my youngest
one I thought to develop some issues with that stuff
because she.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Was on it all night. You know.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So I think that's again historical because my kids are
ages of that yet from the first one to the
next one, she was just at the you know, she
had born nineteen ninety nine, so that's just at the
start of all of the stuff, and it took a
few years. I wasn't aware that you actually get anxiety
and depression from being online. I just thought it wasn't
good for you because you're not exercising, you're not sleeping,
(19:40):
and that's what's bad. And well, yeah, we didn't have
the evidence then, so it's easy to do your best
as a parent and think you're doing really cloody. Well,
but I just never get too smoke because you don't know.
I like, kids are grown up. They tell me stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I mean that failed sort of sort of funny, but
not really. When you said second, I'm like, sneaky.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
What was the reaction to that? I reacted that were
her adults to swear?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
That was my reaction, rhymed with plucking bell.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Because I was already.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Had the advantage point they were adult, was an able, Fine,
they don't need mean to our issues and stuff, so
it'll already ended out all right. But I just thought
and actually what my reaction in my head was, God,
that sounds acceptly something that I would have done.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
As a teenager. So I think I know where they
got that TV at the street front.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Actually there's something you'd touched on there, and we want
to look. We'd love you if you we'd love you
to have joined the conversation. If you're listening, oh, one hundred
and eighty ten eighty, because yeah, it's easy to go.
You know, were the parents on this as well? But
Meta and Google via YouTube have been found to be
deliberately manipulating those apps to make it addictive to children. Now,
(20:48):
I think the question is you just mentioned it before
that you just thought, you know, phones were bad for
your kids because you're on them all day and you
need to get out and get some fresh air and
some exercise. But it goes beyond that. I want to
know what what is your reaction to this news because
I think that everything we're learning as we go about
the harm it's causing, it's almost a relief to me
(21:08):
as a parent because it gives me the tool to
say this is bad for you. I'm just being you know,
dad's back of pain. So we'd love your cause on this.
Nathan Wallace, as my guest, is a neuroscience educator and
if you want to join the conversation, you know the number.
It's eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. Nathan, as you
and I, as you have worked out, can talk to
the Cowskin Home, but we'd love you to join us
(21:30):
as well. Back in a tic It's twenty eight past
five News Talk z B with Tim Beverage. We're with
Nathan Wallace. God my lisp, Nathan, Nathan Wallace, it's got
some suddenly. I was suddenly wondering to put the tch
in the s and talking about addiction to social media platforms.
(21:50):
Meta and YouTube have been found liable for deliberately designing
their platforms to be addiction addictive. What's your reaction to it?
But Nathan and I are going to continue the conversation.
We've got a few texts while we get into Before
we get into it, muzz just says Tim, mom and
add I find them addictive. So what chance does a
teenager have. I'm glad they're getting prosecuted. And Murray, I
(22:11):
think is a teacher actually.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
From Okay, so that stuff works all day with it?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Another one says, I heard the girl was six when
her addiction started. Okay, come on, why aren't the parents
responsible for letting a six year old do that? Blooming ridiculous.
Parents need to be parents, not let little kids even
get a chance to be in the situation.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I agree with both of those.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
It is complex, and the thing is you don't want
to leap to the first thing. But I mean, you know,
as I was sitting on the couch and I thought,
sixteen hours now.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Okay, so many people are doing it though, Tim, You know,
it has become the norm to just hand the kid
the iPad. People are just quite proud in they're hateen
months old as proficient on an iPad because I think
that's advanced, because we've just got this mythical idea that
the more the clever you are.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So and like I said, nothing releases more dopamine than
a screen.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So when the kids, so you're trying to cut tea
and then fighting and screaming, and you're already frustrated and
got lots on your mind, you hand them an iPad
and there's peace and tranquility. So you know, it's, like
I said, the design to the addictive. So I think
a lot of parents don't know. They just think, O
you like something you said at airports in the holidays,
because I'm in my fifties. You used to be there
(23:23):
are the holidays that things were chaostok at the airport,
kids running and screaming, and now instead silent and think
it'sque really because the kids are all looking at an iPad,
so that seems like a dramatic change.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Actually, I got to say, my pet peeve at the
moment is I thought it'd be quite a nice gift
to give noise canceling headphones to the kids because they
can listen to music and stuff. But now it's like
you say something and of course they don't even hear you.
Can we take off the noisect?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Never shut yourself on the foot there.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Never buy your kids noise canceling earphones unless you want
to have to have every conversation three times. First time
you think why they haven't heard me, Second time you
realize why they haven't heard you. In the third time
you've shouted at them and take them off. This person
says now an interestant question. It says, I have ADHD
and I have very poor impulse control? Am I doomed.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
During to break?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
What's that I was thinking about ADHD? Because we're talked
about dopamine, so douring to break. So where they brought
it up?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So what is that? What's the story with Well.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But basically ADHD is it's a compound, it's the complex thing,
but it's basically the inability to produce as much dopamine
as other people. So you have to do extreme things
to get the dopamine that everyone else just has abnormal.
So it's already a sort of a deficiency manage to
use dopamine. So someone we talked about addiction. That means
that people with ADHD have got a tenderment type. It's
(24:43):
much more prone to addiction because they are already lacking
dopamine and so they're already seeking dopamine, which is what
is sort of the basis hormonally of what addiction is.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So how do they how do you go abound sort
of helping though people?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
There's the game that thing we talked about before, that
person needs to find us self control. I always say
to people ADHD with self control as a superpower, because
you can do things old people can't do. You can
excessively focus on things you can, you can use all
that extra energy you've got the ability to break boundaries.
There's not always a bad thing, that'd be a really
good thing, but you have to doing that consciously. So
(25:21):
ADHD with self control is a superpower. ADHD without self
control is a disability because you are you don't get
to do what you want to do, doing what your
emotions are telling you to do, and your emotional part
of your brain essentially stays two years old his whole life.
It only cares about right now. It doesn't care about
long term houtcomes and stuff, and it doesn't care about thinking.
It only cares about feeling. He cares about what's kind
(25:43):
of how it feels right now. So you have to
learn self control over top of that to get control
of that.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Even I've got a few techts, quite a few bits
of correspondence coming in. Actually, one says, I have four teenagers.
I ran myself ragged trying to manage screen time. They
were too smart and got around everything I put in.
I failure, including yes, extra phone. If you've ever had
a rebellious child, you'll know. In the end, I had
to let them, leave them, let them to it. But
(26:13):
with plenty of sport and coach and to keep a balance,
the oldest three have figured it out. The youngest will Yeah,
sorry I'm interrupting. No, no, you go. I do it
all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I just think what it said there about keeping them
involved in sport and stuff is the key to why
he's been successful because I empathize what they're saying. They
do have all these other strategies and stuff. That's why
I liked that two hours of a day device through
time with my kids. I do it while we're cooking
tea because I know of their other device then. So
it was four to six, so we were that was
the time that we spent together, and it was easier
for me to minit than not being on it, and
(26:44):
then I didn't have to place it the whole rest
of the time.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
The other twenty two hours, I could let it go.
So yeah, but sorry, I was my child. I thought
I was.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Extraphones discipline teenager's rebellion.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
The sport part, yeah, because he continued that to take
them to sporting with coaching and stuff. Then they were
always doing screens as well as physical activity and extra
curricular things. And I learned early on in the research,
well before we had even social media, that you could
summarize all the because we're still worried about television and
gaming and stuff. For a long time before we worried
about social media, and the evidence had always basically said
(27:20):
that as long as your kids are doing screens as
well as physical activity getting a good night's sleep, then
you were fine because the kids who were going to
go on to develop psychological disorders were the kids who
did screens instead of having friends and did screens instead
of doing exercise. So if you're a kid, because my
son was an obsessive gamer, he liked he would if
(27:41):
you let him, he would play.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Hours on a Saturday gaming.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I didn't let him, but I'm starting half I lesson
he would, but I was quite loose with it, and
I let himself manage it. Said ahead the two hours
of our device for a time. And when he was younger,
he had to every thirty minutes to get up and
run around the house.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
This is the thing we come up with. So he
was getting physical exercise.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
But I knew he was always doing sports, he was
always going to Germany, he always had friends stay over night,
so I didn't have to worry about the screen because
he was always a gamer.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
As well as opinions, it's funny, actually spring stands one
of my daughters is actually when it comes to bedtime,
I'll come through and say, right, come on, we got
to put that down and everything, and she does it
so compliantly. I'm almost like, have you got a plan?
And B I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I think that highlights temperament a.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You know, we often talk about parenting as if we're
shaping the kids and what their responses are. But their
temperaments are only there when you're born, you know. And
kids have different temperaments, you know. My kids have remarkably
different temperaments. So you know, my son I just talked
about it always had to be her self control. He
was the other one that had a secret cell phone.
But he had the temper and type to go, oh,
I'm going to break the rules and I'm going to
stay on the phone for midnight, but I still need
(28:50):
a good nice slee because I got to stow tomorrow
and rugby. So whereas my daughter didn't have the temperment type,
she would sail until five am and get one hour
of sleep, you know. And so it's not all about
your parents. Have so much about what you're born with.
So much of little traits and stuff are already there.
So it sounds like you're going to love the implement
and your daughter that she's you know, she's a awful.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Well she's feisty.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, as a perfect child mate, you know. I
mean my eldest daughter is like that. She wants to
play and she's likely she's thirty three now. She's lovely.
She's so lovely and she's you know, I always had
that to a lot of wanting to please, and I
think it's a really good truck. You know, anything in
the extreme can be bad. If you're letting go of
yourself to just please others, that's going into a bust
(29:32):
relation in the extreme, it's bad.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
But you know, I've just found out she's so easy
to like. Yeah, I'm really proud of that.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Yeah. One of the what are okay, so for parents
who are listening, are there red flags on this stuff?
And look, we're not going to get into having a
crack at the plaintiff in this case and parents are
you know, but but are there red flags if you
want to look for them? If you want to look
for anything, you'll fine. You know, what are the red
(30:00):
flags that you should be you know, triggering you?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I mean, this is I think that's quite difficult because
and a lot of the red flags am about to
say are just typical signs of adolescence. So that's why
parents missed it a lot, because they just suddenly they're
cut off from you and they're silent, and theyre spending
a lot of time in their bed room. They become
noncommunicative so that, you know, how as you don't find
you know, a lot of people think that you know,
there only three words there some considering ad lescences.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, no, I don't know goes down.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But that could be that they're you know, on the
phone all night and bead you know, or it could
just be they're an adolescent and gone to adolescence.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
So I think it's about getting an excessive cluster of those.
Adolescences need extra attention anyway.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
But if you're you know, it's more than normal amount
of shutting themselves in their room and cutting off from
you and things, I suppose it's that as well as
a thing. If they're coming, if they're coming to selves
off and you spending what someone their around being silent,
as well as having moments where they connect with you
and you just have a good too, then you're probably
all right, there was real real red flag for me.
(31:03):
Would they when those moments disappear and it's all just
a relationship with a sullen person?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, that's that's it?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Is that what you meant about red flags about over Yeah,
but it's red flags for lots of things. Because you know,
you don't have a unique response to trauma because it
comes from a screen. Then you do from trauma because
it comes from being abused or you know. Yeah, I
just think it's easy at a spot in children because
children are generally happy, they're not happy, but teenagers are
(31:32):
already not happy so often so it can be harder
to spot. I think that's why we have to remember
even though the young adults they do still need parented,
that you do still need to be involved. And you know,
like that dad said, it's difficult to try and place
their use.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think the ways of it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
But I know around the restaract with alcohol that if
you find out that's sixteen, that your teenagers drinking and
have a big reaction and stuff, and there's a family
meeting and stuff, but then after that you just sort
of let them go out and there is no boundary
around how much they drink. Parents often have a boundary
around what time they can home, but they don't stop
to think of a boundary about how many studies are
going to have, so they don't have that conversations. The
(32:10):
kid just goes out, whereas the parents. It's clear in
the research the parents they stay involved until they're eighteen
with knowing where they are and how much they are drinking.
Even if the kids lie to you about it, the
fact that you are asking, you are being an involved parent.
Those kids get so much better upcomes because it's.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Sort of like an apprenticeship parenting were you're their little
Jiminy cricket on their shoulder early, aren't you you know? Yeah? Good,
Even if they're ignoring you from time to time, you're
still there.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That still makes a difference. I
remember too that specifically in that research. If I if
I negotiate, you know, with my child, Okay, you're going
to take you're only learn to take three studies to
this party, and then they decide to be completely rebellious
and go, screw you, dad, I'm just going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To have what I want. They don't typically more than
double it, so they got to stop. They go to
six and.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
They're all on a rebel. Also, I'm in trouble this.
I hopeful it doesn't find out and they think they're
being really repellious. Good for six, whereas the kids that
have no boundaries have on average thirteen and while the
parents that don't discuss because we live in a binge
drinking culture, there's just a reality at New Zealand. So
they have Thursday in tracks. So even when the kids
lied to me, I'm still a winner because he's only
doubled that threat.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
God, I'd be an absolute wreck on that. Hey, we
need to a quick minute. We'll be back in just
to tick with Nathan Wallace at seventeen and a half
minutes to set. Gosh, time has been flying when you're
having fun and chatting with Nathan Wallace about social media
and the meta ruling that they have been design in
the apps to be addictive. We've got a couple of
texts here, Nathan. One says Tim loving your show. I
(33:35):
have grandchildren who come and bring a plethora of plug
and objects. I'm so edgy over it. I feel I'm
always grumping at them at home they're using them for schoolwork,
but then off coming here they still have them, and
it's hard to get around it. I find this AI
is getting on, you know, onto my life. I just
don't google the thing I want. I hate this AI.
(33:56):
I think if it gets to me, I can understand
how young people are drawn in, says Jane. Got the
thing we can help Jane out there with.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely, get your children their pearents to be the
bad cop.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Because you're a grandparent. You don't have to be the
bad cop.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
And oh and I see your parents don't like you
being on those devices all the time.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
When they've done that's good for you. So we've got
to follow some of the rules at your mum's house.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I mean, I'm saying that time in cheek, but they
can just if they're not allowed to do it at home.
When they're exploring the fact they can do it with
their grandparents, just say oh Mum or dad, obviously get them.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
On side with it. Yeah, you know they're not happy
with you being on it all night.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So we're just going to have the boundary now to
talk to about to your pearans that from you know what,
even time it is they go away, you allowed them.
Because I think that is the key that having no
structure around it, and then you're like, oh, I think
these kids have been on that device for too long.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
They're just opening up them to dispute it.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Whereas if you've all sat down discussed it and said, right,
this is what's going to happen from the six o'clock
at night, whatever it is, there's no more devices. They
go away, and it'll be easier for the grandparents to
cope with too, because they know they're going to get.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
That last time. And that's what the quality might has happened,
whether kids put their devices down and.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Even with Actually, even if it was down to grandmother,
I think she if she's obviously frustrated about it, that
she could even when they arrive saying listen, I love
having your kids visit, but we're going to change some rules.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, I will talk to them.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
We together are going to do it. Because that's the key,
you know, I think we need some boundaries around this.
What do you suggest, because if the kids can come
up with themselves with or maybe we should just put
the devices away six o'clock, you know they buy into it.
It's just so much easier that if you were trying
to impose it.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Another one says, I've been watching from the sidelines for
years the damage handheld screens are doing to our kids
and youth. My son is four next month, and I'm
so glad that all this evidence is coming out. We
don't need tablets and we don't use our phones in
front of them, so we can use set a better
example just waiting on primary schools to remove the tech
now like Sweden.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Brilliant, brilliant, that's so done the right thing. And I
don't want to have some parents to have it because,
like I said before, sometimes they don't know and that
is handed and it gets peace.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
But that person is.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
So done the right thing by following their intemation and
just keeping the devices away.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Yeah, so young. And as I say, as she says
at the start of this text, you know, I'm so
glad the evidence is out. I reckon a lot of
this is a big relief to parents because it's no
longer just something where you're being like, I'm suspicious about
this technology. We can go this is bad, so we're
doing it. I mean, it does it helps parents, I
(36:19):
think the stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think that's why when I said my son was
a gamer and I would let him do that stuff.
I probably wouldn't let him go for as long as
he did. Now, I didn't just have that as long
as you're doing as well as because there wasn't the evidence,
and I thought I sort of thought, oh, old people
always trying to you know, spoil kids done. My grandparents
were sure that Elvis was doing huge damage to my
mother and didn't know a lot of damage, you know,
(36:41):
So I was thinking like that as well, like I
don't want to be the cool parents, and there was
no evidence, so I didn't know, so I was suspicious
on it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
So I think you're right. Evidence does make a huge difference.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And kids played up on that. It's like just because
you don't understand the technology, dad or mum, you know,
it's just because you don't like it. But now you
can say, look here we.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Go and the old classic everybody else is able to do.
Everyone else in my.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
School and in my class.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Well no, I mean, you know, I think thank god
the government did that starting point of blunt, you know,
stopping them in scores as well. Hey, Nathan, time has
flown mate. We've got to say, CHERRYO, great to.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Talk, great talk here, so it is good.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Yep, thanks mate, we'll afford to next time.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Okay, cheers mate.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
That is Nathan Wallace. By the way. We'll have the
our up a fascinating conversation actually on the whole device
thing and meta because we've got to go next to
Rap Sport with Alex Powell and it is ten to six.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb Brother, you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Don't have.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Oh god shuther you cut tomorrow? Then you still got
the news from game Brother you don't have them.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yes, So welcome back or welcome into the Weekend Collective.
I'm Tim Beverage. We want your calls. This is the
Parents Squad and the number, of course is o E
one hundred and eighty ten eighty in text nine nine
two and look big news. This week social media giants
Meta and YouTube were found liable for Google should I
(01:01):
say in YouTube, we're found liable for deliberately designing the
platforms to be addictive. Now, look, you don't have to
go too far into the details of this specific trials,
because parents everywhere will have stories to their own to
some extent. One of the things that did pop out
to me was that I heard that the plaintiff, as
a young person, had been spending up to sixteen hours
(01:23):
a day on it. And I have to be honest,
you know, it's a very easy to have a whiplash reaction,
but I did have a whiplash reaction of like, well,
where the hell were her parents, what were they doing?
What were they doing in electing her to that extent
that they she was spending that amount of time sixteen
hours a day up to But I mean then again,
I mean how much blame does fall on the parents
should she have been suing them anyway? I don't want
(01:45):
to not going to let Meta off the hook, by
the way, but because that might actually just be a
separate question on you know, what other factors are at stake,
and they talk about you know, Meta have talked about
the other addictive things that they're available for teenagers. But
of course, if they are designing their apps to addict
the user, that's why they're in trouble and as they
(02:08):
should be. So look, yeah, there are countless things in
the modern world that young people can be become addicted to.
I mean there's sugar for a start, video games, any
number of apps, social media or otherwise. So when it
comes to addiction of this nature, well there's the simple
question to what extend appearents to blame? But also what
(02:30):
tools can parents give their children? What tools can we
give children to recognize and therefore hopefully resist addiction or
is it simply just put down the phone Let us
know what you think on eight hundred eighty ten to
eighty text nineteen nine two. The simple question is will
you pleased when you heard about this verdict? Okay, they're
(02:51):
going to appeal. It's not the last time we're going
to be talking about it. But so far the jury
has come back and said, you guys have designed this
stuff to addict our children. So what are your thoughts? Oh,
eight hundred eighty ten x nine two nine two joining us,
I think is a pretty good fit for this conversation.
I would imagine he's a neuroscience education educator and it's
(03:14):
Nathan Wallace. Gooday, Nathan, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Jo? Pretty well? Mate?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Hell?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 4 (03:19):
What did you reaction to this bit of news about
meta surprise? No, I was a surprise surprise that they
that they pointed it out. I mean surprised at the verdict.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Inevitable, like if when you have to stay up up
to date with all of that current research on that,
like I do with my job, you can see that pattern.
You can see they were being deceptive, you can see
they were being dishonest, and I think it's very akin
to like the article said about the smoking cigarette thing.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, once they started.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Out naively enough, but then they found out, oh, it's
actually coming to people. So instead of being responsible, they went,
let's start a you know, just to deceive and to
hide that.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
And I think that's a similar thing that's happened.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
They may have started out just because, like you say,
a lot of media is designed to be addictive.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
That's the whole point of it. Well, that's what advertising is.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Well, the Facebook thing was just a university sort of
thing to connect students with each other. And I mean
Zuckerberg in the early stages, I don't think he thought
let's set out to try and addict people. He thought,
let's try and come up with something cool that connect people.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
And it's the nature of the economy.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Is the way the economy works in terms of competition
and numbers, and you know, it's not run by morals,
it's run by you know, financial success.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Actually, sorry, I'm timing there on my interjection. The thing,
you know, the thing that to me, you know, there's
always little bits of information or things that stand out
that make you think all they're in trouble on this one.
And the one that always did it for me was
the fact that the fact or from what I heard
(04:49):
that Zuckerberg didn't allow his own kids to have phones
and social media, and that if you went to his house,
you know, everything was checked at the door. There were
no phone And I thought, if he's not letting his
kids access it, what.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Does he know that we don't speaks volumes? And he's
not the only one, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I've seen articles about a lot of the leaders and
the tech industry, you know, the people that are aware
and do know have the same rules for their kids.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So yeah, just as an adult, I was asking myself,
are there things that I get addicted to? There's been
the odd video game I've got addicted to when I
was younger, and there's probably a couple of silly things
that I probably spend maybe a few more minutes and
every day that I should have. You have you recognized
things that have dragged you intention Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I think you wouldn't be human unless you had. I
suppose we have to define exactly what addiction is. A yes,
because you can allow yourself to play video games all
summer because you can because you've got no kids, and
you know whatever, and you allow yourself to do that's
not necessarily addiction. It's just indulging you know, people go
out and drink, you know, and drink more than they should,
(05:54):
but they only do it, you know, occasionally, so it's
not seen as you have to define what addiction is.
I think an addiction is their ability to take away choice
where they take away choice.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
There's so there's a difference between and well about indulging
in something and being addicted to it, because well, when you're.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
In control of something and you're consciously choosing to indulge,
that is different than I can't stop this, I need help.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Does one lead to the other?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, absolutely, and then you can't.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
If you weren't indulging in the first place, you wouldn't
suddenly found yourself in a place where you're addicted to it.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So yeah, one does lead to the other.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But you know, more people in the world indulging in
alcohol than there are alcoholics. More people indulge in all
of those things, sugar, you know, internet, everything, There's more
people that indulge in it without developing addiction. I think
the key thing in this case is that they are
marketing it at children, because it's almost like once you're
over eighteen, legally you're saying, as you should have the
smarts to work that out and know when to stop.
(06:51):
But children don't have that part of their brain develops,
you know, that's why we have laws protecting them.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Well, I think it's hard enough for adult, it's hard
enough for ult Yes, right, I mean, there's a silly
little game I'm playing on the food line sometimes and
look probably fifteen twenty minute. It's maybe, But I've caught
myself a couple of times getting to bed a bit
late because I went on, just one more, just one more.
And that's why I recognized. I thought, okay, no, And
now I see it as something I've got a you know,
(07:16):
I've discovered or something. Yeah, but I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's interesting. One, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
In the research on human development, the number one thing
that determines how successful a human is, because there has
to be a number one when the measure everything possible
in the research, the one thing that determines how successful
a human being is more than any other single factor
is their ability to self control.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And that's exactly way you're describing.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Just then, when you got to recognize the behavior just
one more, just one more, and you got all that's
not healthy. I'm going to exert control over that behavior.
And that's self control, and I'm going to make myself
not do the one more. You know, I have a
system that's the opposite of addiction, and a children's brains
find that much harder to do it because again that
part of the front or cortets that regulates those emotions,
because you know, all the dopamine and stuff hitting a system.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Can you just dig into us? You know, we hear
the word dopamine, yeah a lot, And sometimes I found
myself using the word and I have to stop and go, okay,
explain it to us how that actually work, what it doesn't,
how it works.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's fascinating because we are like as human beings, we're
basically just little dopamine jokies.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
All that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, if something feels good, you released openly, you know,
so you want to do that thing again, and so yeah,
that's our whole experience of love. But they've got lots
of neurotransmitters, you know, serotonin section mood. But dopamine is
a reward system. So something that gives you dopamine, they
want to do it again. In fact, when they do
experiments on rats, you know, because enamals as well, a
(08:44):
lot of their brain similar to ours. They have the
same emotional olympic system that drives addiction. When they put
them with rats with a cage and they've got cocaine,
access to cocaine they've got, and they've got access to food,
they end out just taking the cocaine until they die.
I don't even eat as well. They just take the
cocaine until they die. Because that's how our systems are
wired because an evolutionary history that served us really well.
(09:06):
You never had a leaver that just gave him all
the day and maybe you wanted yet to hope for
it and work for it, and it took a.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Lot of effort.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So you've been set up to sort of now screens
at least more dopamine than anything else we will have
ye so now you don't have to do anything to
get that dope wine.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And so that's part of my screen.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
So dopamine itself is not bad because so for instance today,
and I was sure I'll repeat myself a little bit
from earlier hours, but I went I got up early
and went for a first time I've been early in
the morning and gone for a bike ride. And so
I felt mildly virtuous But then what happened is I
took my daughter to a hockey practice and I chipped
(09:46):
in because there was a sort of informal thing the
coach had arranged. The sun came out, we're helping out,
the kids were having a great time, and as we're
driving home, a daughter said, God that I really I've
had a great morning, Daddy, And so had I. And
we were obviously flooded with dopamine because the sun had
been shining, and we had exercise and enjoyed each other's company,
some laughter with good people. That's good. That's good dopamine.
(10:10):
That'll make me want to do it next week. Yeah,
And is that the trick to an unhealthy addiction is
finding those other things that give you that pad.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I think of it as like short term and long
term openly, because the long terms openly, you know, as
it relates to that self controls just talking about when
you make yourself get up and go for that bike ride.
You know that self control and that that has accumulative effect.
You don't necessarily feel so great well you're doing the
bike running, but you get you get the long trim
(10:44):
rewards because not only in the brain chemistry that it's
releasing all these positive peptides and hormones for a long
time afterwards.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So physically you get.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
The benefit, but you get the almost emotional spiritual benefit
of knowing, Oh good I am being my high self.
I did follow through on my promise this morning. You
feel a weay bit better about yourself physically if you've
waken up your muscles and stretched your body and stuff,
so you feel a bit in your body's that's all
long term, don Whereas the other time of dopaminciate of
addiction is that short term stuff get it right now,
(11:12):
it's actually bad for you at the long term. So
sugar so closer example, you get instant it from sugar
straight away. The chocolate cake feels good right now, basically
if it feels If it feels good right now, that's
the stuff we have to be careful of. If the
benefits are not going to be until later, that's the
stuff we have to aspire to.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
So is that I mean, because one of the questions
you know, we've got to dig into is how you
give your kids the tools to resist those sorts of
unhealthy short terms do mean? It's we get from social
media and you.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Show them basically you do it yourself, not.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
As you say.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So well, I mean, how do you because naively I
say naively because I don't assume this is the answer.
But I would hope that. See, my daughter's had a
great time, you know, he's very lucky. She's got an
inspiring coach. She makes everything fun. So she's going to
want to turn up to practice again because that's what's
(12:13):
giving her a reward. But she wouldn't have felt that
in the early stages. But that is that One of
the major antidotes we've got to this sort of stuff
is it's not just keeping them busy, but it's finding
them things where they are getting that long term sense of.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Reward so much so much that you did right. It's
not for a start, you know, I'm learning a musical instrument.
There's hours of teen years boring stuff that we don't
want to do until you're the cool guy that can
play the I'm going to say that because I'm envious
with people that can play music and instrument icons and
I've tried to dedicate time, you know, to start, and
never had the.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Perseverits so to care. I mean, I've learned another language.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I'm proud of that that toil perseverance, because that's the
saying that's really hard work. You feel, really you have
to keep making yourself go. Then once you have another language,
the whole the world opens up and multiple worlds open up.
Had no idea, it's so rewarded it. But man, it
was a lot of hard work for us, save as
a musical instrument.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
So I mean, so how look, I mean, people do
it all the time. We do it all the time
with our kids. We introduce them to things and ideas
and challenges and stuff. But I guess that's the thing
is you need. And I can see why we're sport.
You know, there's that move to look there the competitive
kids who want to keep scoring. But in the early days,
you know, if the kids are going to be losing
(13:30):
all the time, that's not a mean it for them.
So they've got to find those moments where.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
They they need that support.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know, the story that you talked about taking your daughter,
it's not just a coach and a good coach and
playing with the team and so she had dad. They're
supporting her, being proud of her, and you know that
just makes such a huge difference. So I think, especially
at the start of things, the start of playing a
musical instrument and start the spport. The more you scaffold
around them and try and make that enjoyable to get
them through that period. We look at brain chemistry, it
(13:59):
looks like, you know, to form a habit before it
becomes a user's quite a different part of the brain.
When we're rest learning something that's at the very front
of the brain, it takes a lot of effort. I mean,
I think of a simple example, like learning to tell
your shoes. When your first time to tell your shoes,
that's at the front of your brain. You're trying really hard,
and you're straining away, and it seems it's really hard work.
Now can you use a You can just tie your
shoes without even thinking about it because it's been moved
(14:20):
to the back of the brain into a different place,
more procedural memory. So to get things out of that
first and into a habit. It's hard to put a
number on that, but one that comes up all the
time is we think it's about ninety Most behavior change
programs are about three months long. You usually have got
someone beside you for the first three months to get
all those but it's actually about laying miling down on
(14:40):
your neural pathways. But it's basically you justually someone to
support you, to encourage you through because your limbic emotional
brain and the dopamine don't want you to do it
for that first three minutes because you're not getting much
reward for you know, you're putting on a lot of effort,
you're not getting a lot of doper meat, so you
don't want to do it. Your emotions aren't invested. If
you've got someone supporting you, there are supporting you after
you through.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
That just makes it so much easier.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So that's quite I think supporting behavior change programs are
three months long.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Indeed, their support for a starter.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Wow, see at the heart of it. And I don't
really want to talk back to be about, you know,
having a crack at parents and stuff, because I mean,
it's an easy thing to do. But then you know,
parents have kids and parents have a responsibility to look
after their children. Because to me, at the heart of
it is the heart of it. God, that sounds so pompous.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I like how yourself reflect like that. It lays the
conversation work because it's not clear.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
It's not clear, so what seems to be a themes
is that if you need lecture kids and you're not
keeping in tabs on them, it's not just a case
of what are you doing on your phone? It's about
involved being. I mean, it seems to me to be
obvious if you can't that the challenge for parents is
(15:53):
to be in active in their kids. Are the pursuits
where they're supporting them in the early stages. You know,
you're turning up to watch them play football or whatever,
or do whatever they're doing. But if you're not there,
then well there's stage one of them falling into the
short term head of the phones and their apps, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I mean I can't help but feel defensive of parents,
like I agree with what you're saying. I send that
sixteen hours and you know, and I have the same
to the judgment that comes into my head. But I'm
a middle child, so you know, I'm in the middle of five,
and middle children always going to see things from other prospectives.
You to see it from the one, And I literally
thought those parents might not know that she's on it
(16:32):
for sixteen hours a day because it's not necessarily it's
sitting in front of the computer for sixteen hours, that
she's going to be online for sixteen hours. But she's
just learned online all the time. But so the parents
won't necessarily know there's a big problem. It's also historical
because that girl's how old is?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
She announced that she's twenty now.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's only in the last sort of five years that
public had been made to even aware that this is
going to be a detrimental thing. A lot of people
would have. I mean, my youngest is just turning twenty seven,
so I missed out on him to do a lot
of that, damn goodness. And they had cell phones, but
there wasn't so much the social media stuff. And I
did have boundaries and roles, so and we're exposed to
(17:09):
the research. But I'm just saying a lot appearance then
just eavenly thought that well it was bad for them,
they wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
And so yeah, I think that it can be easier
for her.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
You know, that might be as well.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Of course, Yeah, I also think, really, you know, it's
super defensively. I think, you know, here's a company that
makes multi billions of dollars off us that is deliberately
targeting to our children, and our conversation wants to go
to sort of putting responsibility on the people that have
made no money from those children, having rested hundreds of
thousand dollars in those kids, and want nothing but the
best for their children. So I'm hesitant to blame I
(17:45):
think you. At the same time, I'm not validating the
parents that let their kids spend sixteen hours on the
internet are doing something wrong.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But yeah, I agree, and I said, in a way,
it is a side it's not a side issue. It's
an issue that does nothing to It does nothing to
let those companies off the hook, because it's a bit like, okay,
so you haven't kept an eye an eye an I
and your kids, and somehow they've fallen on them in
the thrall of a I don't know, somebody's introduced into
(18:16):
alcohol or something, and that person it doesn't you know,
the fact that you wish you'd intervened earlier or something
doesn't let the person off the hook who's hurting them.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I just remember too that you know now that my
kids are alloys and we have the conversation, I thought
i'd manage the phone and stuff really well.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
They were.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
They had to hand the phones and we had a
two hour a day device free time because I was
aware of the research, and I don't think most parents were,
but it was part of my job. I knew that
if kids come from a household with there's only two hours,
but they're not allowed to use the phone, I'm not
allow to use any screen, then they don't develop the psychology.
And that says, I've got to be connected to it
all the time. The need's had two hours a day
to regular time. So that was my kids and they
(18:54):
had to hand in there. They had to give me
their cell phone at nine o'clock at night. Yeah, I
had an hour before they went to bed. It was
one of the old teenagers and they could, you know,
because I knew you needed an hour off it to
sort of wind down.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
And then they were allowed during the night.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And when they're adults, all the youngest one, the others
two have told me they had spear cell phones that
they just after they went to bed, and my youngest
one I thought to develop some issues with that stuff
because she.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Was on it all night. You know.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So I think that's again historical because my kids are
ages of that yet from the first one to the
next one, she was just at the you know, she
had born nineteen ninety nine, so that's just at the
start of all of the stuff, and it took a
few years. I wasn't aware that you actually get anxiety
and depression from being online. I just thought it wasn't
good for you because you're not exercising, you're not sleeping,
(19:40):
and that's what's bad. And well, yeah, we didn't have
the evidence then, so it's easy to do your best
as a parent and think you're doing really cloody. Well,
but I just never get too smoke because you don't know.
I like, kids are grown up. They tell me stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
I mean that failed sort of sort of funny, but
not really. When you said second, I'm like, sneaky.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
What was the reaction to that? I reacted that were
her adults to swear?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
That was my reaction, rhymed with plucking bell.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Because I was already.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Had the advantage point they were adult, was an able, Fine,
they don't need mean to our issues and stuff, so
it'll already ended out all right. But I just thought
and actually what my reaction in my head was, God,
that sounds acceptly something that I would have done.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
As a teenager. So I think I know where they
got that TV at the street front.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Actually there's something you'd touched on there, and we want
to look. We'd love you if you we'd love you
to have joined the conversation. If you're listening, oh, one hundred
and eighty ten eighty, because yeah, it's easy to go.
You know, were the parents on this as well? But
Meta and Google via YouTube have been found to be
deliberately manipulating those apps to make it addictive to children. Now,
(20:48):
I think the question is you just mentioned it before
that you just thought, you know, phones were bad for
your kids because you're on them all day and you
need to get out and get some fresh air and
some exercise. But it goes beyond that. I want to
know what what is your reaction to this news because
I think that everything we're learning as we go about
the harm it's causing, it's almost a relief to me
(21:08):
as a parent because it gives me the tool to
say this is bad for you. I'm just being you know,
dad's back of pain. So we'd love your cause on this.
Nathan Wallace, as my guest, is a neuroscience educator and
if you want to join the conversation, you know the number.
It's eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. Nathan, as you
and I, as you have worked out, can talk to
the Cowskin Home, but we'd love you to join us
(21:30):
as well. Back in a tic It's twenty eight past
five News Talk z B with Tim Beverage. We're with
Nathan Wallace. God my lisp, Nathan, Nathan Wallace, it's got
some suddenly. I was suddenly wondering to put the tch
in the s and talking about addiction to social media platforms.
(21:50):
Meta and YouTube have been found liable for deliberately designing
their platforms to be addiction addictive. What's your reaction to it?
But Nathan and I are going to continue the conversation.
We've got a few texts while we get into Before
we get into it, muzz just says Tim, mom and
add I find them addictive. So what chance does a
teenager have. I'm glad they're getting prosecuted. And Murray, I
(22:11):
think is a teacher actually.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
From Okay, so that stuff works all day with it?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Another one says, I heard the girl was six when
her addiction started. Okay, come on, why aren't the parents
responsible for letting a six year old do that? Blooming ridiculous.
Parents need to be parents, not let little kids even
get a chance to be in the situation.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I agree with both of those.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
It is complex, and the thing is you don't want
to leap to the first thing. But I mean, you know,
as I was sitting on the couch and I thought,
sixteen hours now.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Okay, so many people are doing it though, Tim, You know,
it has become the norm to just hand the kid
the iPad. People are just quite proud in they're hateen
months old as proficient on an iPad because I think
that's advanced, because we've just got this mythical idea that
the more the clever you are.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So and like I said, nothing releases more dopamine than
a screen.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So when the kids, so you're trying to cut tea
and then fighting and screaming, and you're already frustrated and
got lots on your mind, you hand them an iPad
and there's peace and tranquility. So you know, it's, like
I said, the design to the addictive. So I think
a lot of parents don't know. They just think, O
you like something you said at airports in the holidays,
because I'm in my fifties. You used to be there
(23:23):
are the holidays that things were chaostok at the airport,
kids running and screaming, and now instead silent and think
it'sque really because the kids are all looking at an iPad,
so that seems like a dramatic change.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Actually, I got to say, my pet peeve at the
moment is I thought it'd be quite a nice gift
to give noise canceling headphones to the kids because they
can listen to music and stuff. But now it's like
you say something and of course they don't even hear you.
Can we take off the noisect?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Never shut yourself on the foot there.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Never buy your kids noise canceling earphones unless you want
to have to have every conversation three times. First time
you think why they haven't heard me, Second time you
realize why they haven't heard you. In the third time
you've shouted at them and take them off. This person
says now an interestant question. It says, I have ADHD
and I have very poor impulse control? Am I doomed.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
During to break?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
What's that I was thinking about ADHD? Because we're talked
about dopamine, so douring to break. So where they brought
it up?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So what is that? What's the story with Well.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But basically ADHD is it's a compound, it's the complex thing,
but it's basically the inability to produce as much dopamine
as other people. So you have to do extreme things
to get the dopamine that everyone else just has abnormal.
So it's already a sort of a deficiency manage to
use dopamine. So someone we talked about addiction. That means
that people with ADHD have got a tenderment type. It's
(24:43):
much more prone to addiction because they are already lacking
dopamine and so they're already seeking dopamine, which is what
is sort of the basis hormonally of what addiction is.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So how do they how do you go abound sort
of helping though people?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
There's the game that thing we talked about before, that
person needs to find us self control. I always say
to people ADHD with self control as a superpower, because
you can do things old people can't do. You can
excessively focus on things you can, you can use all
that extra energy you've got the ability to break boundaries.
There's not always a bad thing, that'd be a really
good thing, but you have to doing that consciously. So
(25:21):
ADHD with self control is a superpower. ADHD without self
control is a disability because you are you don't get
to do what you want to do, doing what your
emotions are telling you to do, and your emotional part
of your brain essentially stays two years old his whole life.
It only cares about right now. It doesn't care about
long term houtcomes and stuff, and it doesn't care about thinking.
It only cares about feeling. He cares about what's kind
(25:43):
of how it feels right now. So you have to
learn self control over top of that to get control
of that.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Even I've got a few techts, quite a few bits
of correspondence coming in. Actually, one says, I have four teenagers.
I ran myself ragged trying to manage screen time. They
were too smart and got around everything I put in.
I failure, including yes, extra phone. If you've ever had
a rebellious child, you'll know. In the end, I had
to let them, leave them, let them to it. But
(26:13):
with plenty of sport and coach and to keep a balance,
the oldest three have figured it out. The youngest will Yeah,
sorry I'm interrupting. No, no, you go. I do it
all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I just think what it said there about keeping them
involved in sport and stuff is the key to why
he's been successful because I empathize what they're saying. They
do have all these other strategies and stuff. That's why
I liked that two hours of a day device through
time with my kids. I do it while we're cooking
tea because I know of their other device then. So
it was four to six, so we were that was
the time that we spent together, and it was easier
for me to minit than not being on it, and
(26:44):
then I didn't have to place it the whole rest
of the time.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
The other twenty two hours, I could let it go.
So yeah, but sorry, I was my child. I thought
I was.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Extraphones discipline teenager's rebellion.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
The sport part, yeah, because he continued that to take
them to sporting with coaching and stuff. Then they were
always doing screens as well as physical activity and extra
curricular things. And I learned early on in the research,
well before we had even social media, that you could
summarize all the because we're still worried about television and
gaming and stuff. For a long time before we worried
about social media, and the evidence had always basically said
(27:20):
that as long as your kids are doing screens as
well as physical activity getting a good night's sleep, then
you were fine because the kids who were going to
go on to develop psychological disorders were the kids who
did screens instead of having friends and did screens instead
of doing exercise. So if you're a kid, because my
son was an obsessive gamer, he liked he would if
(27:41):
you let him, he would play.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Hours on a Saturday gaming.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I didn't let him, but I'm starting half I lesson
he would, but I was quite loose with it, and
I let himself manage it. Said ahead the two hours
of our device for a time. And when he was younger,
he had to every thirty minutes to get up and
run around the house.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
This is the thing we come up with. So he
was getting physical exercise.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
But I knew he was always doing sports, he was
always going to Germany, he always had friends stay over night,
so I didn't have to worry about the screen because
he was always a gamer.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
As well as opinions, it's funny, actually spring stands one
of my daughters is actually when it comes to bedtime,
I'll come through and say, right, come on, we got
to put that down and everything, and she does it
so compliantly. I'm almost like, have you got a plan?
And B I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I think that highlights temperament a.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You know, we often talk about parenting as if we're
shaping the kids and what their responses are. But their
temperaments are only there when you're born, you know. And
kids have different temperaments, you know. My kids have remarkably
different temperaments. So you know, my son I just talked
about it always had to be her self control. He
was the other one that had a secret cell phone.
But he had the temper and type to go, oh,
I'm going to break the rules and I'm going to
stay on the phone for midnight, but I still need
(28:50):
a good nice slee because I got to stow tomorrow
and rugby. So whereas my daughter didn't have the temperment type,
she would sail until five am and get one hour
of sleep, you know. And so it's not all about
your parents. Have so much about what you're born with.
So much of little traits and stuff are already there.
So it sounds like you're going to love the implement
and your daughter that she's you know, she's a awful.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Well she's feisty.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, as a perfect child mate, you know. I
mean my eldest daughter is like that. She wants to
play and she's likely she's thirty three now. She's lovely.
She's so lovely and she's you know, I always had
that to a lot of wanting to please, and I
think it's a really good truck. You know, anything in
the extreme can be bad. If you're letting go of
yourself to just please others, that's going into a bust
(29:32):
relation in the extreme, it's bad.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
But you know, I've just found out she's so easy
to like. Yeah, I'm really proud of that.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Yeah. One of the what are okay, so for parents
who are listening, are there red flags on this stuff?
And look, we're not going to get into having a
crack at the plaintiff in this case and parents are
you know, but but are there red flags if you
want to look for them? If you want to look
for anything, you'll fine. You know, what are the red
(30:00):
flags that you should be you know, triggering you?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I mean, this is I think that's quite difficult because
and a lot of the red flags am about to
say are just typical signs of adolescence. So that's why
parents missed it a lot, because they just suddenly they're
cut off from you and they're silent, and theyre spending
a lot of time in their bed room. They become
noncommunicative so that, you know, how as you don't find
you know, a lot of people think that you know,
there only three words there some considering ad lescences.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, no, I don't know goes down.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But that could be that they're you know, on the
phone all night and bead you know, or it could
just be they're an adolescent and gone to adolescence.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
So I think it's about getting an excessive cluster of those.
Adolescences need extra attention anyway.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
But if you're you know, it's more than normal amount
of shutting themselves in their room and cutting off from
you and things, I suppose it's that as well as
a thing. If they're coming, if they're coming to selves
off and you spending what someone their around being silent,
as well as having moments where they connect with you
and you just have a good too, then you're probably
all right, there was real real red flag for me.
(31:03):
Would they when those moments disappear and it's all just
a relationship with a sullen person?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, that's that's it?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Is that what you meant about red flags about over Yeah,
but it's red flags for lots of things. Because you know,
you don't have a unique response to trauma because it
comes from a screen. Then you do from trauma because
it comes from being abused or you know. Yeah, I
just think it's easy at a spot in children because
children are generally happy, they're not happy, but teenagers are
(31:32):
already not happy so often so it can be harder
to spot. I think that's why we have to remember
even though the young adults they do still need parented,
that you do still need to be involved. And you know,
like that dad said, it's difficult to try and place
their use.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think the ways of it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
But I know around the restaract with alcohol that if
you find out that's sixteen, that your teenagers drinking and
have a big reaction and stuff, and there's a family
meeting and stuff, but then after that you just sort
of let them go out and there is no boundary
around how much they drink. Parents often have a boundary
around what time they can home, but they don't stop
to think of a boundary about how many studies are
going to have, so they don't have that conversations. The
(32:10):
kid just goes out, whereas the parents. It's clear in
the research the parents they stay involved until they're eighteen
with knowing where they are and how much they are drinking.
Even if the kids lie to you about it, the
fact that you are asking, you are being an involved parent.
Those kids get so much better upcomes because it's.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Sort of like an apprenticeship parenting were you're their little
Jiminy cricket on their shoulder early, aren't you you know? Yeah? Good,
Even if they're ignoring you from time to time, you're
still there.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That still makes a difference. I
remember too that specifically in that research. If I if
I negotiate, you know, with my child, Okay, you're going
to take you're only learn to take three studies to
this party, and then they decide to be completely rebellious
and go, screw you, dad, I'm just going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To have what I want. They don't typically more than
double it, so they got to stop. They go to
six and.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
They're all on a rebel. Also, I'm in trouble this.
I hopeful it doesn't find out and they think they're
being really repellious. Good for six, whereas the kids that
have no boundaries have on average thirteen and while the
parents that don't discuss because we live in a binge
drinking culture, there's just a reality at New Zealand. So
they have Thursday in tracks. So even when the kids
lied to me, I'm still a winner because he's only
doubled that threat.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
God, I'd be an absolute wreck on that. Hey, we
need to a quick minute. We'll be back in just
to tick with Nathan Wallace at seventeen and a half
minutes to set. Gosh, time has been flying when you're
having fun and chatting with Nathan Wallace about social media
and the meta ruling that they have been design in
the apps to be addictive. We've got a couple of
texts here, Nathan. One says Tim loving your show. I
(33:35):
have grandchildren who come and bring a plethora of plug
and objects. I'm so edgy over it. I feel I'm
always grumping at them at home they're using them for schoolwork,
but then off coming here they still have them, and
it's hard to get around it. I find this AI
is getting on, you know, onto my life. I just
don't google the thing I want. I hate this AI.
(33:56):
I think if it gets to me, I can understand
how young people are drawn in, says Jane. Got the
thing we can help Jane out there with.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely, get your children their pearents to be the
bad cop.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Because you're a grandparent. You don't have to be the
bad cop.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
And oh and I see your parents don't like you
being on those devices all the time.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
When they've done that's good for you. So we've got
to follow some of the rules at your mum's house.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I mean, I'm saying that time in cheek, but they
can just if they're not allowed to do it at home.
When they're exploring the fact they can do it with
their grandparents, just say oh Mum or dad, obviously get them.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
On side with it. Yeah, you know they're not happy
with you being on it all night.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So we're just going to have the boundary now to
talk to about to your pearans that from you know what,
even time it is they go away, you allowed them.
Because I think that is the key that having no
structure around it, and then you're like, oh, I think
these kids have been on that device for too long.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
They're just opening up them to dispute it.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Whereas if you've all sat down discussed it and said, right,
this is what's going to happen from the six o'clock
at night, whatever it is, there's no more devices. They
go away, and it'll be easier for the grandparents to
cope with too, because they know they're going to get.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
That last time. And that's what the quality might has happened,
whether kids put their devices down and.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Even with Actually, even if it was down to grandmother,
I think she if she's obviously frustrated about it, that
she could even when they arrive saying listen, I love
having your kids visit, but we're going to change some rules.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, I will talk to them.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
We together are going to do it. Because that's the key,
you know, I think we need some boundaries around this.
What do you suggest, because if the kids can come
up with themselves with or maybe we should just put
the devices away six o'clock, you know they buy into it.
It's just so much easier that if you were trying
to impose it.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Another one says, I've been watching from the sidelines for
years the damage handheld screens are doing to our kids
and youth. My son is four next month, and I'm
so glad that all this evidence is coming out. We
don't need tablets and we don't use our phones in
front of them, so we can use set a better
example just waiting on primary schools to remove the tech
now like Sweden.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Brilliant, brilliant, that's so done the right thing. And I
don't want to have some parents to have it because,
like I said before, sometimes they don't know and that
is handed and it gets peace.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
But that person is.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
So done the right thing by following their intemation and
just keeping the devices away.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Yeah, so young. And as I say, as she says
at the start of this text, you know, I'm so
glad the evidence is out. I reckon a lot of
this is a big relief to parents because it's no
longer just something where you're being like, I'm suspicious about
this technology. We can go this is bad, so we're
doing it. I mean, it does it helps parents, I
(36:19):
think the stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think that's why when I said my son was
a gamer and I would let him do that stuff.
I probably wouldn't let him go for as long as
he did. Now, I didn't just have that as long
as you're doing as well as because there wasn't the evidence,
and I thought I sort of thought, oh, old people
always trying to you know, spoil kids done. My grandparents
were sure that Elvis was doing huge damage to my
mother and didn't know a lot of damage, you know,
(36:41):
So I was thinking like that as well, like I
don't want to be the cool parents, and there was
no evidence, so I didn't know, so I was suspicious
on it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
So I think you're right. Evidence does make a huge difference.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And kids played up on that. It's like just because
you don't understand the technology, dad or mum, you know,
it's just because you don't like it. But now you
can say, look here we.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Go and the old classic everybody else is able to do.
Everyone else in my.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
School and in my class.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Well no, I mean, you know, I think thank god
the government did that starting point of blunt, you know,
stopping them in scores as well. Hey, Nathan, time has
flown mate. We've got to say, CHERRYO, great to.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Talk, great talk here, so it is good.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Yep, thanks mate, we'll afford to next time.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Okay, cheers mate.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
That is Nathan Wallace. By the way. We'll have the
our up a fascinating conversation actually on the whole device
thing and meta because we've got to go next to
Rap Sport with Alex Powell and it is ten to six.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk Said Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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