January 17, 2026 • 36 mins
NCEA results are officially out.
Most kids would have genuinely worked as hard as they could to get the grades they hoped for - even the kids who act like they don't really care.
And for many it won't have turned out as hey had planned - whether that meant not quite meeting the dizzying heights of their ambition or an actual fail grade. But it's unavoidable - at some stage through their school career - and life for that matter, most of us have to deal with the disappointment of failure.
They need to learn how to deal with that disappointment - but it will of course still be there, so how are parents supposed to help their children through it?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk.
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Speaker 2 (00:15):
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Speaker 3 (00:24):
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Speaker 4 (00:29):
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Speaker 2 (00:33):
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Speaker 1 (00:40):
I saw wars flow up.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Und machine, a bloody fo scene. Yo, he said out,
say three thousands, not much, she says, Black Daily, under water.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And your great great great granddad, it's too.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
That's welcome back. This is the Weekend Collector, first show
of the year. Welcome in, well, welcome back, depending on
which applies to you. And this is the Parents Squad. Now,
as you will.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
Have heard, the NCEEA results are out and as you
will have heard from Jogo Filling just in the news
right now, students are being reminded not to be too
harsh on themselves as the results are delivered. So as
you will have heard, there are provisional figures showing seventy
two percent a year eleven past level one, Level two
(01:44):
is just under seventy three percent, and level three a
year thirteen only about seventy percent past. But of course
you know failure, Well, that's the question. Most kids would
have genuinely worked pretty hard to get the grades they've
hoped for, but it's one of at some stage kids
(02:07):
are going to receive a mark that they're not happy with.
So how do you deal with failure? I mean, for instance,
if you are aiming for med school, you might you
might think that the you might think that anything less
than an A plus is going to be failure. I
mean defining failure. We've all had to go through it
at some stage. So yeah, how have you dealt with
failure in your life as well? And how would you
(02:29):
help a young person to discuss that. We're joined by
neuroscience educator and his name is Nathan Wallason. He's with
me now, good day, Nathan. How are you going?
Speaker 7 (02:39):
Okay? Tom, I'm good mate?
Speaker 6 (02:40):
How are you good? Did you have what's you have
a bit of a you have a breaker of you being?
What are your workaholic?
Speaker 7 (02:46):
A bit of a workaholic?
Speaker 8 (02:47):
Yeah, I mean I try and get a break over
suwhere I don't do as much teaching, but then all
the jobs I avoided over the year, hireland, my summer vacation, something,
doing a book, editing.
Speaker 6 (02:58):
So well, that's good. Did you have have you had
some sort of break a little bit of you've got
a bit of son on.
Speaker 8 (03:03):
Your I'm down south at my brother's house in Milton,
which is just south of Dunedin. Oh lovely, that's my hometown.
Good to go home and catch up with everyone.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
So, I mean, how much of a Some kids never
have to worry about failure because they're you know, smart,
and they achieve what they want and they're not worried
worried about academic results. But the implication from that news
story I read, of course, is there a bunch of
people who didn't make the grade? How much of it
with the context for that, and kids who say that
(03:34):
I don't care, how do we put I mean, what's
your take on the how kids can on the impact
this stuff can have on kids, children, students.
Speaker 8 (03:44):
I think in some ways, I don't care might be
a healthy response, more healthy response than developing, you know,
full blown anxiety about school certain results. I think it's
where you know, any kids listening to know that for
the rest of your life, people don't ask what grades
you've got. You know, on this first level of your examinations.
It is important, but it's not the end of the world.
(04:05):
You mentioned about kids going to be well, for the
vast majority of kids aren't going to med school. So
I would say, you know, c's get degrees. You've only
just got passed to get through.
Speaker 7 (04:15):
Degrees they do. You've just got to pass to get through.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
I was pretty naughty at high school, and I sailed
through on natural intelligence. So I did never very good
work habits and I was shocked at how bad my
it was scool certificate. Then I passed, but I only
just passed, so it was a real wake up call
for me. But you know, I still ended up becoming
a university lecturer and doing very well on the field
that I'm in. Your you know your results from high school.
Like I say, no one asks you. No one's ever
(04:39):
asked to see my transcript from university. No employers ever
asked to see that. They only care whether you've got
a degree or not. Even I'm with my master's degree.
You know, if you get you can get a master's
agree with excellence, that's an A. You can get a
master's degree with credit that's b's, and you can just
get a master's degree. No one of my whole career
has ever asked me whether I got it with credit
or with excellence.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
I'm credit or with excellence.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
Just with credit.
Speaker 8 (05:02):
With credit, I was one mark away from excellence. You've
asked me, you're blown my record?
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Yeah, next time, next time. No, only one person has
ever asked me, and he was a complete that's right.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Yeah, I mean, but I think addresses.
Speaker 8 (05:16):
That broader issue of I'm having to deal with failure
in the first place. So if you are going you
do want to go to med school, because there are
some students where it's really important to get a's for
very good reasons. If you want to go to med school,
you do need top grades. But I think it's worth
them understanding that, you know, anything really good is worth
working for, and many, many people don't get in the
first time. It doesn't mean you're not good enough, doesn't
mean you won't make a good doctor, doesn't mean you
(05:38):
can't achieve it. It just means that some things take
more effort, and so you might have to go again.
My son's doing as an entrance exam for his MBA.
It's notoriously hard to get into for the you know,
to get into an MBA. Yeah, so he's sort of
at least to be about to, says first Exam. He's,
you know, strategically already planning for what if I've got
(05:59):
to do it a second time. It's just taking it
in your you know, taking it in your stride. You
do what you need to do to succeed, and it
may be doing it too, maybe doing it three times.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
Actually, that's that's an interesting idea, that preparing for failure.
I mean that sounds like something that a self help
god would say. You never prepare for failure. You focus
on success.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
I know you expect to get through, but I think
it's healthy for your levels of anxiety and stuff and
self perception to what am I going to do if
I don't get through this?
Speaker 7 (06:31):
Am I going to shry again? Or am I going
to give up?
Speaker 6 (06:34):
Yeah? Because I mean I haven't. We haven't. We're about
to get into that age with our daughters where they'll
be right, our oldest one will be doing in the
Level one this year, and I haven't. Really. It's funny
things with parenting. A sometimes you don't think as far
ahead as you'd like to, and all of a sudden
(06:55):
it seems like it's upon me and I don't. I
don't know what I mean. It's not upon us yet,
but I feel I need to get ahead of this
in terms of setting goals and expectations, and I don't know.
I'm not sure how to approach it. I mean, my
wife's a teacher, she's probably well ahead of it than
I am.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
Absolutely, there's no there's no one way to approach it either.
I mean, I think people will be shocked. How I
with my kids, I was not one. I didn't make
my kids do your homework. It was up to them
whether they did their homework or not. You know, I've
had lots of conversations with my kids that said, actually,
what determines how successful you're going to be in life
(07:33):
is primarily your dispositions, not your academic grades. I mean,
this is if you want to go to med school
or your academic grades matter. But for the vast majority
of people, you know, when you get to an interview,
people are going to go on your how you present yourself,
your level of confidence, your ability to communicate, your interpersonal skills,
how you make people feel like you know. Getting the degree, say,
(07:55):
the qualification gets you through the door to get an interview,
but after that and in the workplace, it's all about
how well you get on with other people, how well
you use your initiative, you know, how yeah, well, there
what we call collectively dispositions.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Actually that's funny because I'm not sure if this story
goes against me or for me. But when I when
I when I had an interview, look, I got a
reasonably okay degree back in the day, a mix of
b's and c's with maybe an A or two. And
there and when I when I went to get a
lord of when I went to get a job as
a lawyer, look, I think I interviewed pretty well. And
(08:34):
when I decided I didn't really like working there after
two years, and I followed something else. One of the partners,
it was candidate enough. He said he always wanted to
hire the other guy, who was far less engaging, but
I thought that he'd stick around forever. And it was interesting.
I remember thinking that sometimes people do jump the queue
(08:57):
in away if they just interview well and they seem
but it doesn't mean telling much about whether they're going
to be any good.
Speaker 8 (09:03):
I mean, we do tend to we do tend to
rely on that because you know, whoever was interviewing you
everybody had a law degree. They wouldn't have got an
interview without a law degree. So it does come down
to what their personality is, how engaging they are, how
much you like them, you're going to work with this person,
what are they going to be like to work with?
A confident person usually has more stamina and more resilience,
and you know, rightly or wrongly, we do go largely
(09:25):
on that. I've been in a position as a manager,
you know, going through lots of cvs and having to
employ and it's it's it's interesting we don't look at
the qualification just getting through the door.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Actually that is It is fascinating, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So?
Speaker 6 (09:38):
I mean, but how do you put because that is
a more sophisticated discussion to have with a kid who's
just received, you know, in a C minus or they
don't get I don't know what do they get achieved? Yeah,
achieved miss a pastor do they have a C minus?
Speaker 7 (09:56):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 8 (09:57):
I'm not up with the modern system and my kids
and then my young it's is twenty six now, so
I'm not even involved in that system anymore.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
Oh so the NBA you're too young? Yeah, so you
did you have to cope as a parent yourself with
kids who were gutted it with the results they got
or the clever well they are a bit clever.
Speaker 8 (10:18):
So none of my kids had learning difficulties or anything.
So school was achievable for them because that may straight
away is only a percentage of kids. But you know,
intelligence is very wide and very rare, very varied type.
There's musical intelligence, there's nature intelligence, there's interpersonal intelligence. Now
you know those things don't tend to be measured at school.
But my kids did have enough of the school intelligence
(10:38):
to get through. But I don't think they None of
them wanted to go to med school, so they were
just happy to pass.
Speaker 7 (10:45):
So there was the usual nerves and stuff.
Speaker 8 (10:46):
But they applied themselves beforehand and did the necessary study.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
What about I mean, what about the com comparison with
their peers? Like, oh, you know, I mean, I'm imagining
at the moment because I haven't been through that with
my kids. But you know, my friend, my friends did
so well. They all got you know, excellences and merit
and I just got an achieved and such and such.
Speaker 8 (11:07):
But you're a way pretty a honey, you know, being flippant,
but instead of pointing out there's other things alike. Yet
some of your friends would have got better marks than you,
and five years time you might be getting a better
marks than them.
Speaker 6 (11:24):
Does that work? I mean, because I would say, I
look at people. I look at people have succeeded, and
I know a range of people have succeeded for a
variety of reasons. I mean, does even just trying to
pass on? Because I think that funny enough if you're
talented and charming, your kids talented and charming, but I'd
(11:46):
be worried that they Sometimes a failure is something that
can spur people on to, you know, to really focus
on what they're doing. I mean, I would almost think that.
I mean, I'm not sure failure is an important part
of life, but I think you've got to learn to.
I think you've sort of got to experience at some stage,
don't you. Y.
Speaker 8 (12:04):
I think it is an important part of life. I
don't think there's anybody that doesn't experience failure. I mean,
failure is comparative. You know, you might think you've failed
because you're in some an elite IBM program and you
got ninety eight percent and the only everyone else got
ninety nine percent. It's not a failure, but it is
comparative because if you're trying to compete and get into
the top sixteen positions for this you know, elite course,
(12:26):
and there's you know, a thousand people applying, and then
you know, so the cutoff grade is ninety eight percent,
then you're ninety seven percent is essentially a failure. So
I think everyone is going to experience failure. You know,
it might not be academically some people are really academically bright,
but you are going to experience failure in life. So
I think knowing how to deal with failure is really important.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
What about you know, one of one of the things
that I think frustrates people when they listen to anything
to do with education, and it's sometimes the way language
is used to try and mitigate or present something in
a particular light by using a new word. So in
other words, failure might be something people run away from
(13:06):
using that word. It's just like, look, you've had a
slight disappointment or you've I can't think you know what
I mean. We try and redefine things, so we're pretending
it doesn't exist, whereas in fact, kids just recognize that
that's the new word for failure, do you that's right,
that's right, And I don't know what they say, I mean,
don't know how you want to know what the euphemisms
for failure are A weak disappointment?
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Yeah, yeah, possibly. I think it's very contextual, isn't It
depends on your child. If your child saying a firstborn girl,
she's overcome with anxiety and depression, she's that personality, a
type who has to get an A plus and A
is a failure, then I think it's good to reframe
failure and to try and get her to see it's
not so black and white that it is just a
(13:50):
minor disappointment and the big scheme of your life, your
NCAA results aren't really going to matter. So to downscale
of that way can be powerful. But to go to
the extreme of that and to shield your child from
ever experiencing failure is quite another thing. So I think
it's like all other things, it's about balance.
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Well, that ties into what you were saying about you
never made your kids do homework, and in a way
I think that that's I think actually liked that idea
that you let them discover for themselves. The consequences of
not having done it. You know, if you've got a
parent who's always making who's always onto it and making
sure you looking you need their homework, you do this
before you go out. You do this, and sometimes I
(14:26):
think that leaves less room for them to learn that
lesson the hard way.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
We're basically regulating their homework when it's something they need
to regulate themselves. But that's not to say that I
had absolutely no interest. If I'd shown no interest, that
would show no interest in education. So I worked in education.
I talked about education. I had those conversations about dispositions.
I talked about you know, self regulation and the ability
to make yourself study and stuff. But that was laid
down way earlier. So by the time my kids got
(14:52):
to sort of NCA, they already knew those things and
they knew they had to exercise a choice about whether
and my kids did it to varying degrees. I had
one that was a bit like a father too much
and just thought, nah, wing it, She'll be right.
Speaker 6 (15:05):
That's my boy or girl.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
Yeah yeah, And then but then the other two are
very very ideal. You know, they put aside the time
they did the work, and those are skills that they
carry with them for the rest of life, that ability
to self regulate and to self control and make yourself
do the things you don't necessarily want to do, like study.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
But you know are going to be beneficial.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Gosh, you've roised so many questions. I've got to you
out of that sentence, that last comment. I mean, it's
actually I mean just I know, without letting off the
top of it, is quite fascinating when you see, like
I see it, my daughter's certain traits that I think
my wife actually wonders where that might have come from.
And I remember what I was like, and I go, gosh,
that's me when I was about thirteen. But for instance,
(15:50):
you know, I see a bit of naivete in one
of them. And you know, while I do this for
a job, which would indicate confidence, I was incredibly naive
and impressionable when I was a kid. And it's funny
to see that those psychological traits popping up. But ye,
which yeah, I don't know. But anyway, look, we'd love.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
Your calls genetic because it's amazing what's genetic and what
your cand skiffrom I remember you and my son doing
very well at school, but then he really had a
brick wall with algebra, and that's exactly what happened to me. Yeah,
I just thought, and I'd never told him that. He'd
never known that, but just seems genetically we were both
not good at algebra, and who would have thought generous god algebra.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
I don't know whether I'd expect you to be good
at algebra or not. That's an interesting one anyway. I look,
we'd love your calls on this. But how have you
dealt with failure? I mean, it applies to anyone who's listening,
but we're focusing obviously, but this being the parents squad,
on how you help a young person through failure. But
of course you know, a lot of the time we
try and give our kids lessons based on what we've learned.
(16:50):
How have you coped with failure in your life? Because
you know, some people you look at, failure can evolve
into a bitterness and how do you avoid that? So
we'd love your calls on this coping with failure. The
NCAA results are out and by definition, a bunch of
people failed and they'll be dealing with that disappointment. The
number is, by the way, we're with Nathan Wallace. You
(17:11):
want to pick Nathan's brains on this, give us a call.
We'd love to hear from you. It is twenty four
past five News Talk zb eight hundred eighty ten eighty Yes,
News Talk zib as you will have heard in the
news read by Joe gil Fulham. Before that, the NCAA
results are delivered and provisional results are showing basically seventy
percent pass rate, maybe a little bit more for a
couple of other years. How do you help your kids
(17:33):
with failure? We're with Nathan Wallace. He's a neuroscience educator.
And let's take some course. By the way, whether or
not you have young people in your life, I mean,
how you will remember if you had a failure, how
did you cope with it when you were growing up
or somewhat older in life? Jan Hello, I beard him?
And what was Nathan Wallace?
Speaker 9 (17:56):
Good?
Speaker 7 (17:56):
You know?
Speaker 9 (17:58):
Hi?
Speaker 10 (17:59):
Now?
Speaker 9 (18:01):
And it's funny how if you don't put the mold
which the majority fit into, supposedly you're them to be
a failure. And that's so incorrect, and it's ruins so
many many lives are ruined because of this narrow mind
(18:23):
of left brain thinking, and really, yes, every child right
at the beginning should be tested to see how they learn,
whether it's a left brain, which is verbal words, dates, numbers,
(18:44):
or if the right brain are visual or in the
middle penesthetic where they kinesthetic people learned by watching and
learning by repeating or doing the task physically. They're physical people,
and the visual people need to learn by picture form
(19:08):
or illustration. And it'd be a lifetime to work this out.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Well, that's yeah, that's that's an interesting question, Jan. I mean,
that's a question around the whole education system. Whether it's
sort of trying to fit square pegs into round holes,
isn't it?
Speaker 8 (19:26):
Absolutely yeah, it is, And I think Jan's absolutely right.
And I mean, it'd be wonderful if we had an
education system that just said every human being is amazing. Really,
if you've got the i Q to tie shoelaces, you've
got it, you know you're an amazing it's an amazing brain.
If we're an education system that just said, let's help
everyone reach their potential. Because the education system does in
some ways try to do that, and the learning styles
(19:47):
that Jan's talking about, teachers do try and caters a
different learning more.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
And more these days, isn't it.
Speaker 8 (19:53):
Yeah, but it's still just like Jan says, though, it's
still essentially a system for left brain thinkers. If you're
if you you know, if you're right hand dominant, right
leg dominant, right ear dominant, right eye dominant, then you're
left brain dominant and left brain dominant. People usually find
school relatively straightforward, and that was the experience for me.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
So you get a can you explain this to me again?
I just want to.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
The brain crosses over, so the left brain controls.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
The right Handah, and I've heard all that. I just
can't remember which is which.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
Yes, if you use if you're right handed, just make
it simple, then you're probably left brained and left brain
is just like Jan said, that's where the analytical things are,
that's where languages, that's where numbers is. School is largely
a left brain curriculum. Things like the right brain, like music, art, drama.
They're fringe subjects at school, not seen as the real
proper core subjects. So school is very much designed for
(20:43):
left brain people. I mean, it's an oversimplification because everybody
uses the right round. But essentially, you know, with what
Jen's saying, I do agree with her I mean, I
know personally musical geniuses that got through school thinking they
were dumb.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
Now that's a crime.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
That's just because if you're an interesting, if you've got
a rich school, you have to do music because music's
so fundamentally good for the brain. But in public school,
you know, like I say, you can get through as
a musical genius and still think that you're dumb, and
people it's just lexier and any learning difficult as ease.
I've got friends who went through school before that was recognized,
and they think they're dumb because they can't spell. Intelligence,
(21:20):
just like jan sort of alluding to intelligence is so
much wider than just those those left brain analytical skills.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
Is that why some people I've known people who've had
their children assessed. You know, I think it's cost a
bit of money to get an assessment of just what
their skills are. But those are actually quite useful if
you can afford it, of course, because you know, but
in fact, those sorts of things I think can be
quite helpful for kids because then it makes them go, oh,
this is how I work, this is how I click.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
Yeah yeah, and it stops from thinking I'm dumb, and
they just think. I remember one of my foster children,
you have to live with me for five years or something.
He had Federal alcohol spectrum disorder, and so he always
found art school quite difficult. But I knew I'd been successful.
And his brother was talking to him about not being
successful at school, and my foster son said, yes, the
(22:09):
school's completely failed to access my learning style and to
allow me to grow my intelligence.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
I thought, yes, that's a good self distill.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
He knows the problems not with him, the problems with
the education system, because he is brilliant. He had emotional intelligence,
interpersonal intelligence, nature intelligence. He was the only one of
my kids that knew the water the pop plants.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
The rest of the.
Speaker 8 (22:30):
Kids the pot park can be dying as leaves all
lying on the ground. The kids would walk past it,
my academically bright kids and not see that it needed water.
He noticed as soon as that plant started drooping, Like,
that's what I mean about different types of intelligence. He
did have intelligence in there, lots of intelligence. And he's
over thirty now and grown out to be very successful.
But a lot of that success because he didn't get
through school thinking I'm dumb, I've got Federal alcohol spectrum
(22:52):
he got through school thinking I'm different and I've got
different ways of learning, and the school's not really ready
for my.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Type of brilliance.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
Gosh that that's actually quite amazing when it isn't it.
I mean, I imagine you must have been actually pretty
very pleased with Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Absolutely absolutely. That was my biggest game.
Speaker 6 (23:08):
It ties into that conversation around, you know, the failure thing,
and I mean, I guess it's about setting sort of
expectations about what you can you know, the conversations around
all this. It's it's about I can't put this very
clearly in my mind one which side of my brain's
gone to sleep, But you know, just helping your kids
(23:32):
understand that it's actually whatever has happened. It's just telling
a particular story of that test that you've had that
and maybe that's the whole point of you know, understanding
failure is about learning to pivot and learning what does
that actually mean? Is it a failure? Okay, it's just
a measure of something at a point of time. But
(23:52):
I mean you can will listen to that, going, no, Dad,
you're trying to make me feel better. I failed.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (23:58):
I think giving them role models, showing them a lot
of the most successful, brilliant people in the history failed repeatedly.
You know, it's lots of famous examples of I think
it was Einstein. Einstein in his early school and got
sent down. Yeah, he got sent home from school because
he was considered you know how to use the word
retarded now, but that's the word they used at the time.
They said, because he was so brilliant, the teachers couldn't
(24:19):
understand him. Really, who's who's the famous inventor? The inventor
invented the electricity, the light bulb.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
Ah, now you've made Edison Edison.
Speaker 7 (24:32):
That's well, I was old when old Edison. I don't
know if it's true.
Speaker 8 (24:36):
This is one of those internet stories that goes around
that Edison was sent home with a letter to his mother,
you know, when he was like six years old, and
his mother read the letters him later saying, your son's basically,
you know it is more too intelligent for our staff.
He's more intelligent than the teachers are. That we're really
sending him to school. To get him to come down
(24:56):
and do the lower form thinking we're doing in comparison
to his high thinking, would be a waste of his time.
He will be much better served in a one on
one context where you teach him home, and seems like, ah, right,
I'm a genius. And then then his mother died like
fifty years later, and going through a stuff, he found
a letter from the school which said, your son is
too slow. He's not intelligent enough to be at school.
(25:18):
It's a waste of our time, even engaging seeming impact.
But it was like his mother didn't want him to
hear that, so she told him he was too intelligent school.
And that speaks back to that thing about your dispositions
and your confidence.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Well, I mean that's the role of pearance as well.
And but what the hell is a school? I mean,
I guess it's a different time, different times, you know,
I mean different societal challenges and all that sort of thing.
It's interesting you mentioned the music thing actually, just while
we're talking about because I mean that people know that
the school my girls go to is Bearradeene, but they
(25:53):
have compulsory you have to learn an instrument.
Speaker 7 (25:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (25:56):
I don't mean to be weird saying this, but all
rich schools do. Yeah, that's one of the disparities. Yeah,
I guess any sort of prime at school that is
really not just focused on turning out factory workers. Don't
mean to be too critical of our public school system,
but New Zealand internationally is has seen our early childhood
education is seen as the best in the world. Our
(26:18):
primary school has seen as top quality, but our secondary
school is criticized for being too focused on producing workers
for the workplace and not focused it up on creating thinkers.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
Oh my goodness, that does gosh, that's so well. That's
that's another thing that we've we've been discussing on talkback
just around university and how the government doesn't want to
fund so many you know, the point of a university
education and success and all that sort of thing. But
and you remember Bob Jones, the late Bob Jones famously
(26:52):
hired people who simply had done a degree in something
degree didn't need to be a yeah, because he wanted
people who'd learned how to think and to debate. And
and it's an interesting thing. Isn't as opposed to it
does feel And I'm not going to get to the
politics on this, but we just have but this government
has sent more of a signal that they favor utilitarian degrees.
(27:13):
And I'm not sure I mean, we've got well off
the topic of it.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
But I think this government, though, in fairness, is just
reflecting the times that we're in. That's the culture around
the whole world, you know, I mean not the whole world.
There are our countries that it better, but it's not
just New Zealand that's doing that. And I think, you know,
the government is just reflecting where people are out in
their minds and they do think about that. That is
what they're focused on rather than you know, but you
(27:38):
go back on a hundred years ago and if someone
had a degree, you knew, they knew about literature, they
knew about the arts, they had another language, they had
an understanding of music, there was a core set of principles.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
Now we criticize that.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
You can just have it be an expert on the
methane and cow farts and know nothing else. I know
nothing else and I have a PhD in that, and
you're considered it intelligent.
Speaker 7 (27:59):
But that's yeah, that's just how education and shapes and
changes it is.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
It's a fascinating You'll tell you what. Let's let's take
another call. I'm dying to go down that rabbit hole
of conversation by the way I'm resisting it. But actually
we'll take we'll take a break and come back with calls.
In the moment, Nathan Nathan Wallace is with me talking
about failure. But also, I mean, I guess the conversation
with failure it's about just you know, one of those
forks in the road where you try and steer your
kids down a different path, and so the conversation does
(28:25):
extend a bit. But yeah, how did you cope with failure?
And how would you help one of your loved ones
cope with maybe a disappointing nce a result or otherwise.
It's twenty two minutes to say, yes, we're with Nathan
Wallace talking about getting over bad exam results. Basically, Tom, hello, get.
Speaker 10 (28:42):
Out, and then sir, I've never said this publiclyfore, but
I'm going to now with all the talk about exams
nine to fifty three, yep, some normal three hundred of
us window in the hall and we're all past the exam. Yeah,
I went back, but they said, oh, one person didn't.
I went back to the room and Frank Thomas, the teacher,
(29:05):
very nice, They said it was you Tom. Okay, one person,
but there's nothing wrong with me. All year and every
exam paper, which I've still got a lot of it
said first and would reckon first in English?
Speaker 6 (29:20):
How did you cut up with that news?
Speaker 10 (29:23):
I haven't take it. I haven't got over it yet.
Speaker 8 (29:27):
Oh okay, I mean I'm not surprised. That's a lot
to deal with, isn't it. When you're told that three
hundred people and two hundred and ninety nine of them
past and you didn't. That's a hard one, I think
for anyone to absorb.
Speaker 7 (29:38):
Tom difficult.
Speaker 10 (29:41):
The one thing that was amused with there was I
don't know which the film was, but there was a
guy being got out by the judge and he said,
have you got the right case? And I kept thinking
of the best in recent years.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
That well, that sounds like there was handled very badly.
That seems weird, doesn't it. Three hundred people in one
person didn't make the grade?
Speaker 10 (30:03):
What was the point do it? Sorry? What was the
point of system?
Speaker 8 (30:09):
I wouldn't allow them to say one person failed. I
would just say most people passed, because that would make
it much easier on the one person that failed. So
they did handle that very badly. Tom, I'm not surprised
that scarred you for a long time.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
What did you end up doing with life for your life?
Speaker 10 (30:27):
Well, then, I'm glad you asked that, because I when
did my apprenticeship with Savories building and when I left,
I spent seventy Oh well at suden Tech, I went
to certain tech. We learned to draw, make little houses
and Dora and I carried on with that for seventeen
(30:48):
years doing my own plans. Only had one architect once,
factories and things mainly, but there we go.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
Yeah, did you enjoy what you're doing? Did you enjoy
your career what you did? Oh?
Speaker 10 (31:01):
Yeah, well I was. I was always going to build
a house for my mother right from the start.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
So good, Hey, thanks for you all times. That's pretty bloody.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
I love that story.
Speaker 8 (31:15):
But because I'm glad that he you know that he
was went on to be successful. But you know, something
he knew he wanted to do beforehand. He had a
loving but he was still successful on that even though
he went through that quite traumatic experience.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
That does that mean that's just a nutter fail from
whatever the school did? But yeah, uh, there's a text
that says there's no such thing as failure in today's
education system. If a student fails it's not the student's fault.
The responsibility counts back with the teacher, asking why the
student did not pass and and what the teacher did
not do that caused the student to fail.
Speaker 8 (31:46):
Uh, that's there's some part of the person that But
I mean that's an exaggerated statement, really, because I hear
what they're saying. Yeah, they're saying that there's much more
pressure on teachers to get the whole class through and
get them to pass, and that is true, and they
will not now just put the blame on the student,
because it is true. If if all the kids and
that school fail science, then you've got to sort of
(32:07):
look at the science teacher and say there's some responsibility
going on here. But I think it's an exaggeration to
say that students don't take any responsibility. Now, there is
the occasional parent that acts that way. I know that
comes into the school and as the teacher.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
But actually I've remembered what it was around definitions. Remember
it used to be it and that it was steering
me in the face. It used to be you've got
an ab C and C minus got you through, but
then they changed it to achieved and not achieved or
excellence and as if that sort of softened the blow.
(32:41):
But kids work out what the standards are, you know
what I mean. Yeah, it was a funny thing to go, well,
you're not going to have AB's and c's anymore because
that's got a stigma attached to it.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Well, I could say focus on education being much more hierarchical,
whereas like what we want as a competent students who
are able to research, able to have interpersonal skills, so
going achieved. So you're rather achieving that or you're not
and you can achieve it with excellence. That's focusing on
the difference between a B and a C. Is that
really that relevant? We need to know if you've got
(33:12):
excellence to get into med school, but then after that
we really just need to know if you've achieved or not.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
So I think that was the idea behind why they
were doing that.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
Yeah, okay, let's take some more course, tam.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Hello, Yeah, here's a game. Good Hey, good topic. We're
talking about failure in particular. My son goes the cross
stage voice. I said to me, you've got a scholarship actually,
and yeah, well he's a good footy player. If she
(33:42):
ticks in the boxes then, but just talking about failure
in particular, this in CIA system might come from the
system before the school seat. So I'm still getting around
what what what is failure? What is achieved? What is
merit pass? A level one with merrit So I'm still
(34:02):
figuring out where that sits. Is that a seat that
are being still don't really know? Yeah, I thought so,
But I think failure for me is when our kids
can't think independently, you know, when they're just following, towing
the line of the school whatever the curriculum turns out
(34:23):
to be. So for me, it's not a failure as such.
I understand that you know a lot of schools are
going through that.
Speaker 7 (34:30):
But.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
I think if we are to develop and go further
like economies like Japan and South Korea, then we definitely
need to look at AI definitely.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
And what respect.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Well, there needs to be more research than in schooling
about it because a lot of a lot of the
students I see a lot of the students are using
chet GBT to do.
Speaker 6 (34:59):
The assignment that that is. That's a real challenge. Actually, Nathan,
We've got to go a second. But I just realized,
can you I remember weirdly and it's decades ago what
I got in school sert. I remember all my grades.
I couldn't tell you what I got in six or
seventh form, but I remember school sert for some reason.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
Yeah, well I'm the same. Actually, Yeah.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
I suppose that's because that's the first year and it's
such a big deal, and because teachers and parents do
I think often over in size how important it is.
I remember just being told it was going to shape
the whole rest of my life, and just this great,
big deal. And as I got older and realized how
little it was, I sort of thought, oh, I got
ripped off in away. They put all this extra stress
on me, thinking that it was going to help and
(35:41):
motivate me.
Speaker 7 (35:42):
But I can actually, which is easily disengage you.
Speaker 6 (35:45):
It is fun, isn't it? A bizarre memory of exactly
what I got in each subject?
Speaker 7 (35:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
It was never going to be a scientist, even though
I passed that one.
Speaker 8 (35:53):
But I end that I am a scientist, and yet
I only scraped through with school sort of science because
I just don't I didn't have a particular good science teacher.
Wowct that conversation before.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Hey, great to chat to you. Nathan,
thanks for joining us for the first show that you
really appreciate it, mate, No worries, mate, Yeah, we'll do
it again. Thanks mate. That's Nathan Wallace, neuroscience educator. Yes,
it's quite funny, isn't it. You remember exactly the subjects
and the grades and I don't know, that's just hardwired.
And so that wraps up the Parents Squad. We're going
(36:28):
to be back to rap Sport with Christopher Reeve's joining
us from the sales GP and Perth in just a
moment News Talks.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He'd be for more from the Weekend Collective. Listen live
to News Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk.
Said Babe, say three thousands, not much, she.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Says, Black Daily, under water and your great great great granddad.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's too fine.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
He sook me to the future and the fust things,
and I.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Saw everything boy man, and another one and another one
and another one with sounders.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I saw wars flow up.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Und machine, a bloody fo scene. Yo, he said out,
say three thousands, not much, she says, Black Daily, under water.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And your great great great granddad, it's too.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
That's welcome back. This is the Weekend Collector, first show
of the year. Welcome in, well, welcome back, depending on
which applies to you. And this is the Parents Squad. Now,
as you will.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
Have heard, the NCEEA results are out and as you
will have heard from Jogo Filling just in the news
right now, students are being reminded not to be too
harsh on themselves as the results are delivered. So as
you will have heard, there are provisional figures showing seventy
two percent a year eleven past level one, Level two
(01:44):
is just under seventy three percent, and level three a
year thirteen only about seventy percent past. But of course
you know failure, Well, that's the question. Most kids would
have genuinely worked pretty hard to get the grades they've
hoped for, but it's one of at some stage kids
(02:07):
are going to receive a mark that they're not happy with.
So how do you deal with failure? I mean, for instance,
if you are aiming for med school, you might you
might think that the you might think that anything less
than an A plus is going to be failure. I
mean defining failure. We've all had to go through it
at some stage. So yeah, how have you dealt with
failure in your life as well? And how would you
(02:29):
help a young person to discuss that. We're joined by
neuroscience educator and his name is Nathan Wallason. He's with
me now, good day, Nathan. How are you going?
Speaker 7 (02:39):
Okay? Tom, I'm good mate?
Speaker 6 (02:40):
How are you good? Did you have what's you have
a bit of a you have a breaker of you being?
What are your workaholic?
Speaker 7 (02:46):
A bit of a workaholic?
Speaker 8 (02:47):
Yeah, I mean I try and get a break over
suwhere I don't do as much teaching, but then all
the jobs I avoided over the year, hireland, my summer vacation, something,
doing a book, editing.
Speaker 6 (02:58):
So well, that's good. Did you have have you had
some sort of break a little bit of you've got
a bit of son on.
Speaker 8 (03:03):
Your I'm down south at my brother's house in Milton,
which is just south of Dunedin. Oh lovely, that's my hometown.
Good to go home and catch up with everyone.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
So, I mean, how much of a Some kids never
have to worry about failure because they're you know, smart,
and they achieve what they want and they're not worried
worried about academic results. But the implication from that news
story I read, of course, is there a bunch of
people who didn't make the grade? How much of it
with the context for that, and kids who say that
(03:34):
I don't care, how do we put I mean, what's
your take on the how kids can on the impact
this stuff can have on kids, children, students.
Speaker 8 (03:44):
I think in some ways, I don't care might be
a healthy response, more healthy response than developing, you know,
full blown anxiety about school certain results. I think it's
where you know, any kids listening to know that for
the rest of your life, people don't ask what grades
you've got. You know, on this first level of your examinations.
It is important, but it's not the end of the world.
(04:05):
You mentioned about kids going to be well, for the
vast majority of kids aren't going to med school. So
I would say, you know, c's get degrees. You've only
just got passed to get through.
Speaker 7 (04:15):
Degrees they do. You've just got to pass to get through.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
I was pretty naughty at high school, and I sailed
through on natural intelligence. So I did never very good
work habits and I was shocked at how bad my
it was scool certificate. Then I passed, but I only
just passed, so it was a real wake up call
for me. But you know, I still ended up becoming
a university lecturer and doing very well on the field
that I'm in. Your you know your results from high school.
Like I say, no one asks you. No one's ever
(04:39):
asked to see my transcript from university. No employers ever
asked to see that. They only care whether you've got
a degree or not. Even I'm with my master's degree.
You know, if you get you can get a master's
agree with excellence, that's an A. You can get a
master's degree with credit that's b's, and you can just
get a master's degree. No one of my whole career
has ever asked me whether I got it with credit
or with excellence.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
I'm credit or with excellence.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
Just with credit.
Speaker 8 (05:02):
With credit, I was one mark away from excellence. You've
asked me, you're blown my record?
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Yeah, next time, next time. No, only one person has
ever asked me, and he was a complete that's right.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Yeah, I mean, but I think addresses.
Speaker 8 (05:16):
That broader issue of I'm having to deal with failure
in the first place. So if you are going you
do want to go to med school, because there are
some students where it's really important to get a's for
very good reasons. If you want to go to med school,
you do need top grades. But I think it's worth
them understanding that, you know, anything really good is worth
working for, and many, many people don't get in the
first time. It doesn't mean you're not good enough, doesn't
mean you won't make a good doctor, doesn't mean you
(05:38):
can't achieve it. It just means that some things take
more effort, and so you might have to go again.
My son's doing as an entrance exam for his MBA.
It's notoriously hard to get into for the you know,
to get into an MBA. Yeah, so he's sort of
at least to be about to, says first Exam. He's,
you know, strategically already planning for what if I've got
(05:59):
to do it a second time. It's just taking it
in your you know, taking it in your stride. You
do what you need to do to succeed, and it
may be doing it too, maybe doing it three times.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
Actually, that's that's an interesting idea, that preparing for failure.
I mean that sounds like something that a self help
god would say. You never prepare for failure. You focus
on success.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
I know you expect to get through, but I think
it's healthy for your levels of anxiety and stuff and
self perception to what am I going to do if
I don't get through this?
Speaker 7 (06:31):
Am I going to shry again? Or am I going
to give up?
Speaker 6 (06:34):
Yeah? Because I mean I haven't. We haven't. We're about
to get into that age with our daughters where they'll
be right, our oldest one will be doing in the
Level one this year, and I haven't. Really. It's funny
things with parenting. A sometimes you don't think as far
ahead as you'd like to, and all of a sudden
(06:55):
it seems like it's upon me and I don't. I
don't know what I mean. It's not upon us yet,
but I feel I need to get ahead of this
in terms of setting goals and expectations, and I don't know.
I'm not sure how to approach it. I mean, my
wife's a teacher, she's probably well ahead of it than
I am.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
Absolutely, there's no there's no one way to approach it either.
I mean, I think people will be shocked. How I
with my kids, I was not one. I didn't make
my kids do your homework. It was up to them
whether they did their homework or not. You know, I've
had lots of conversations with my kids that said, actually,
what determines how successful you're going to be in life
(07:33):
is primarily your dispositions, not your academic grades. I mean,
this is if you want to go to med school
or your academic grades matter. But for the vast majority
of people, you know, when you get to an interview,
people are going to go on your how you present yourself,
your level of confidence, your ability to communicate, your interpersonal skills,
how you make people feel like you know. Getting the degree, say,
(07:55):
the qualification gets you through the door to get an interview,
but after that and in the workplace, it's all about
how well you get on with other people, how well
you use your initiative, you know, how yeah, well, there
what we call collectively dispositions.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Actually that's funny because I'm not sure if this story
goes against me or for me. But when I when
I when I had an interview, look, I got a
reasonably okay degree back in the day, a mix of
b's and c's with maybe an A or two. And
there and when I when I went to get a
lord of when I went to get a job as
a lawyer, look, I think I interviewed pretty well. And
(08:34):
when I decided I didn't really like working there after
two years, and I followed something else. One of the partners,
it was candidate enough. He said he always wanted to
hire the other guy, who was far less engaging, but
I thought that he'd stick around forever. And it was interesting.
I remember thinking that sometimes people do jump the queue
(08:57):
in away if they just interview well and they seem
but it doesn't mean telling much about whether they're going
to be any good.
Speaker 8 (09:03):
I mean, we do tend to we do tend to
rely on that because you know, whoever was interviewing you
everybody had a law degree. They wouldn't have got an
interview without a law degree. So it does come down
to what their personality is, how engaging they are, how
much you like them, you're going to work with this person,
what are they going to be like to work with?
A confident person usually has more stamina and more resilience,
and you know, rightly or wrongly, we do go largely
(09:25):
on that. I've been in a position as a manager,
you know, going through lots of cvs and having to
employ and it's it's it's interesting we don't look at
the qualification just getting through the door.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Actually that is It is fascinating, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So?
Speaker 6 (09:38):
I mean, but how do you put because that is
a more sophisticated discussion to have with a kid who's
just received, you know, in a C minus or they
don't get I don't know what do they get achieved? Yeah,
achieved miss a pastor do they have a C minus?
Speaker 7 (09:56):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 8 (09:57):
I'm not up with the modern system and my kids
and then my young it's is twenty six now, so
I'm not even involved in that system anymore.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
Oh so the NBA you're too young? Yeah, so you
did you have to cope as a parent yourself with
kids who were gutted it with the results they got
or the clever well they are a bit clever.
Speaker 8 (10:18):
So none of my kids had learning difficulties or anything.
So school was achievable for them because that may straight
away is only a percentage of kids. But you know,
intelligence is very wide and very rare, very varied type.
There's musical intelligence, there's nature intelligence, there's interpersonal intelligence. Now
you know those things don't tend to be measured at school.
But my kids did have enough of the school intelligence
(10:38):
to get through. But I don't think they None of
them wanted to go to med school, so they were
just happy to pass.
Speaker 7 (10:45):
So there was the usual nerves and stuff.
Speaker 8 (10:46):
But they applied themselves beforehand and did the necessary study.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
What about I mean, what about the com comparison with
their peers? Like, oh, you know, I mean, I'm imagining
at the moment because I haven't been through that with
my kids. But you know, my friend, my friends did
so well. They all got you know, excellences and merit
and I just got an achieved and such and such.
Speaker 8 (11:07):
But you're a way pretty a honey, you know, being flippant,
but instead of pointing out there's other things alike. Yet
some of your friends would have got better marks than you,
and five years time you might be getting a better
marks than them.
Speaker 6 (11:24):
Does that work? I mean, because I would say, I
look at people. I look at people have succeeded, and
I know a range of people have succeeded for a
variety of reasons. I mean, does even just trying to
pass on? Because I think that funny enough if you're
talented and charming, your kids talented and charming, but I'd
(11:46):
be worried that they Sometimes a failure is something that
can spur people on to, you know, to really focus
on what they're doing. I mean, I would almost think that.
I mean, I'm not sure failure is an important part
of life, but I think you've got to learn to.
I think you've sort of got to experience at some stage,
don't you. Y.
Speaker 8 (12:04):
I think it is an important part of life. I
don't think there's anybody that doesn't experience failure. I mean,
failure is comparative. You know, you might think you've failed
because you're in some an elite IBM program and you
got ninety eight percent and the only everyone else got
ninety nine percent. It's not a failure, but it is
comparative because if you're trying to compete and get into
the top sixteen positions for this you know, elite course,
(12:26):
and there's you know, a thousand people applying, and then
you know, so the cutoff grade is ninety eight percent,
then you're ninety seven percent is essentially a failure. So
I think everyone is going to experience failure. You know,
it might not be academically some people are really academically bright,
but you are going to experience failure in life. So
I think knowing how to deal with failure is really important.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
What about you know, one of one of the things
that I think frustrates people when they listen to anything
to do with education, and it's sometimes the way language
is used to try and mitigate or present something in
a particular light by using a new word. So in
other words, failure might be something people run away from
(13:06):
using that word. It's just like, look, you've had a
slight disappointment or you've I can't think you know what
I mean. We try and redefine things, so we're pretending
it doesn't exist, whereas in fact, kids just recognize that
that's the new word for failure, do you that's right,
that's right, And I don't know what they say, I mean,
don't know how you want to know what the euphemisms
for failure are A weak disappointment?
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Yeah, yeah, possibly. I think it's very contextual, isn't It
depends on your child. If your child saying a firstborn girl,
she's overcome with anxiety and depression, she's that personality, a
type who has to get an A plus and A
is a failure, then I think it's good to reframe
failure and to try and get her to see it's
not so black and white that it is just a
(13:50):
minor disappointment and the big scheme of your life, your
NCAA results aren't really going to matter. So to downscale
of that way can be powerful. But to go to
the extreme of that and to shield your child from
ever experiencing failure is quite another thing. So I think
it's like all other things, it's about balance.
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Well, that ties into what you were saying about you
never made your kids do homework, and in a way
I think that that's I think actually liked that idea
that you let them discover for themselves. The consequences of
not having done it. You know, if you've got a
parent who's always making who's always onto it and making
sure you looking you need their homework, you do this
before you go out. You do this, and sometimes I
(14:26):
think that leaves less room for them to learn that
lesson the hard way.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
We're basically regulating their homework when it's something they need
to regulate themselves. But that's not to say that I
had absolutely no interest. If I'd shown no interest, that
would show no interest in education. So I worked in education.
I talked about education. I had those conversations about dispositions.
I talked about you know, self regulation and the ability
to make yourself study and stuff. But that was laid
down way earlier. So by the time my kids got
(14:52):
to sort of NCA, they already knew those things and
they knew they had to exercise a choice about whether
and my kids did it to varying degrees. I had
one that was a bit like a father too much
and just thought, nah, wing it, She'll be right.
Speaker 6 (15:05):
That's my boy or girl.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
Yeah yeah, And then but then the other two are
very very ideal. You know, they put aside the time
they did the work, and those are skills that they
carry with them for the rest of life, that ability
to self regulate and to self control and make yourself
do the things you don't necessarily want to do, like study.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
But you know are going to be beneficial.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Gosh, you've roised so many questions. I've got to you
out of that sentence, that last comment. I mean, it's
actually I mean just I know, without letting off the
top of it, is quite fascinating when you see, like
I see it, my daughter's certain traits that I think
my wife actually wonders where that might have come from.
And I remember what I was like, and I go, gosh,
that's me when I was about thirteen. But for instance,
(15:50):
you know, I see a bit of naivete in one
of them. And you know, while I do this for
a job, which would indicate confidence, I was incredibly naive
and impressionable when I was a kid. And it's funny
to see that those psychological traits popping up. But ye,
which yeah, I don't know. But anyway, look, we'd love.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
Your calls genetic because it's amazing what's genetic and what
your cand skiffrom I remember you and my son doing
very well at school, but then he really had a
brick wall with algebra, and that's exactly what happened to me. Yeah,
I just thought, and I'd never told him that. He'd
never known that, but just seems genetically we were both
not good at algebra, and who would have thought generous god algebra.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
I don't know whether I'd expect you to be good
at algebra or not. That's an interesting one anyway. I look,
we'd love your calls on this. But how have you
dealt with failure? I mean, it applies to anyone who's listening,
but we're focusing obviously, but this being the parents squad,
on how you help a young person through failure. But
of course you know, a lot of the time we
try and give our kids lessons based on what we've learned.
(16:50):
How have you coped with failure in your life? Because
you know, some people you look at, failure can evolve
into a bitterness and how do you avoid that? So
we'd love your calls on this coping with failure. The
NCAA results are out and by definition, a bunch of
people failed and they'll be dealing with that disappointment. The
number is, by the way, we're with Nathan Wallace. You
(17:11):
want to pick Nathan's brains on this, give us a call.
We'd love to hear from you. It is twenty four
past five News Talk zb eight hundred eighty ten eighty Yes,
News Talk zib as you will have heard in the
news read by Joe gil Fulham. Before that, the NCAA
results are delivered and provisional results are showing basically seventy
percent pass rate, maybe a little bit more for a
couple of other years. How do you help your kids
(17:33):
with failure? We're with Nathan Wallace. He's a neuroscience educator.
And let's take some course. By the way, whether or
not you have young people in your life, I mean,
how you will remember if you had a failure, how
did you cope with it when you were growing up
or somewhat older in life? Jan Hello, I beard him?
And what was Nathan Wallace?
Speaker 9 (17:56):
Good?
Speaker 7 (17:56):
You know?
Speaker 9 (17:58):
Hi?
Speaker 10 (17:59):
Now?
Speaker 9 (18:01):
And it's funny how if you don't put the mold
which the majority fit into, supposedly you're them to be
a failure. And that's so incorrect, and it's ruins so
many many lives are ruined because of this narrow mind
(18:23):
of left brain thinking, and really, yes, every child right
at the beginning should be tested to see how they learn,
whether it's a left brain, which is verbal words, dates, numbers,
(18:44):
or if the right brain are visual or in the
middle penesthetic where they kinesthetic people learned by watching and
learning by repeating or doing the task physically. They're physical people,
and the visual people need to learn by picture form
(19:08):
or illustration. And it'd be a lifetime to work this out.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Well, that's yeah, that's that's an interesting question, Jan. I mean,
that's a question around the whole education system. Whether it's
sort of trying to fit square pegs into round holes,
isn't it?
Speaker 8 (19:26):
Absolutely yeah, it is, And I think Jan's absolutely right.
And I mean, it'd be wonderful if we had an
education system that just said every human being is amazing. Really,
if you've got the i Q to tie shoelaces, you've
got it, you know you're an amazing it's an amazing brain.
If we're an education system that just said, let's help
everyone reach their potential. Because the education system does in
some ways try to do that, and the learning styles
(19:47):
that Jan's talking about, teachers do try and caters a
different learning more.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
And more these days, isn't it.
Speaker 8 (19:53):
Yeah, but it's still just like Jan says, though, it's
still essentially a system for left brain thinkers. If you're
if you you know, if you're right hand dominant, right
leg dominant, right ear dominant, right eye dominant, then you're
left brain dominant and left brain dominant. People usually find
school relatively straightforward, and that was the experience for me.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
So you get a can you explain this to me again?
I just want to.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
The brain crosses over, so the left brain controls.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
The right Handah, and I've heard all that. I just
can't remember which is which.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
Yes, if you use if you're right handed, just make
it simple, then you're probably left brained and left brain
is just like Jan said, that's where the analytical things are,
that's where languages, that's where numbers is. School is largely
a left brain curriculum. Things like the right brain, like music, art, drama.
They're fringe subjects at school, not seen as the real
proper core subjects. So school is very much designed for
(20:43):
left brain people. I mean, it's an oversimplification because everybody
uses the right round. But essentially, you know, with what
Jen's saying, I do agree with her I mean, I
know personally musical geniuses that got through school thinking they
were dumb.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
Now that's a crime.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
That's just because if you're an interesting, if you've got
a rich school, you have to do music because music's
so fundamentally good for the brain. But in public school,
you know, like I say, you can get through as
a musical genius and still think that you're dumb, and
people it's just lexier and any learning difficult as ease.
I've got friends who went through school before that was recognized,
and they think they're dumb because they can't spell. Intelligence,
(21:20):
just like jan sort of alluding to intelligence is so
much wider than just those those left brain analytical skills.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
Is that why some people I've known people who've had
their children assessed. You know, I think it's cost a
bit of money to get an assessment of just what
their skills are. But those are actually quite useful if
you can afford it, of course, because you know, but
in fact, those sorts of things I think can be
quite helpful for kids because then it makes them go, oh,
this is how I work, this is how I click.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
Yeah yeah, and it stops from thinking I'm dumb, and
they just think. I remember one of my foster children,
you have to live with me for five years or something.
He had Federal alcohol spectrum disorder, and so he always
found art school quite difficult. But I knew I'd been successful.
And his brother was talking to him about not being
successful at school, and my foster son said, yes, the
(22:09):
school's completely failed to access my learning style and to
allow me to grow my intelligence.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
I thought, yes, that's a good self distill.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
He knows the problems not with him, the problems with
the education system, because he is brilliant. He had emotional intelligence,
interpersonal intelligence, nature intelligence. He was the only one of
my kids that knew the water the pop plants.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
The rest of the.
Speaker 8 (22:30):
Kids the pot park can be dying as leaves all
lying on the ground. The kids would walk past it,
my academically bright kids and not see that it needed water.
He noticed as soon as that plant started drooping, Like,
that's what I mean about different types of intelligence. He
did have intelligence in there, lots of intelligence. And he's
over thirty now and grown out to be very successful.
But a lot of that success because he didn't get
through school thinking I'm dumb, I've got Federal alcohol spectrum
(22:52):
he got through school thinking I'm different and I've got
different ways of learning, and the school's not really ready
for my.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Type of brilliance.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
Gosh that that's actually quite amazing when it isn't it.
I mean, I imagine you must have been actually pretty
very pleased with Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Absolutely absolutely. That was my biggest game.
Speaker 6 (23:08):
It ties into that conversation around, you know, the failure thing,
and I mean, I guess it's about setting sort of
expectations about what you can you know, the conversations around
all this. It's it's about I can't put this very
clearly in my mind one which side of my brain's
gone to sleep, But you know, just helping your kids
(23:32):
understand that it's actually whatever has happened. It's just telling
a particular story of that test that you've had that
and maybe that's the whole point of you know, understanding
failure is about learning to pivot and learning what does
that actually mean? Is it a failure? Okay, it's just
a measure of something at a point of time. But
(23:52):
I mean you can will listen to that, going, no, Dad,
you're trying to make me feel better. I failed.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (23:58):
I think giving them role models, showing them a lot
of the most successful, brilliant people in the history failed repeatedly.
You know, it's lots of famous examples of I think
it was Einstein. Einstein in his early school and got
sent down. Yeah, he got sent home from school because
he was considered you know how to use the word
retarded now, but that's the word they used at the time.
They said, because he was so brilliant, the teachers couldn't
(24:19):
understand him. Really, who's who's the famous inventor? The inventor
invented the electricity, the light bulb.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
Ah, now you've made Edison Edison.
Speaker 7 (24:32):
That's well, I was old when old Edison. I don't
know if it's true.
Speaker 8 (24:36):
This is one of those internet stories that goes around
that Edison was sent home with a letter to his mother,
you know, when he was like six years old, and
his mother read the letters him later saying, your son's basically,
you know it is more too intelligent for our staff.
He's more intelligent than the teachers are. That we're really
sending him to school. To get him to come down
(24:56):
and do the lower form thinking we're doing in comparison
to his high thinking, would be a waste of his time.
He will be much better served in a one on
one context where you teach him home, and seems like, ah, right,
I'm a genius. And then then his mother died like
fifty years later, and going through a stuff, he found
a letter from the school which said, your son is
too slow. He's not intelligent enough to be at school.
(25:18):
It's a waste of our time, even engaging seeming impact.
But it was like his mother didn't want him to
hear that, so she told him he was too intelligent school.
And that speaks back to that thing about your dispositions
and your confidence.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Well, I mean that's the role of pearance as well.
And but what the hell is a school? I mean,
I guess it's a different time, different times, you know,
I mean different societal challenges and all that sort of thing.
It's interesting you mentioned the music thing actually, just while
we're talking about because I mean that people know that
the school my girls go to is Bearradeene, but they
(25:53):
have compulsory you have to learn an instrument.
Speaker 7 (25:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (25:56):
I don't mean to be weird saying this, but all
rich schools do. Yeah, that's one of the disparities. Yeah,
I guess any sort of prime at school that is
really not just focused on turning out factory workers. Don't
mean to be too critical of our public school system,
but New Zealand internationally is has seen our early childhood
education is seen as the best in the world. Our
(26:18):
primary school has seen as top quality, but our secondary
school is criticized for being too focused on producing workers
for the workplace and not focused it up on creating thinkers.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
Oh my goodness, that does gosh, that's so well. That's
that's another thing that we've we've been discussing on talkback
just around university and how the government doesn't want to
fund so many you know, the point of a university
education and success and all that sort of thing. But
and you remember Bob Jones, the late Bob Jones famously
(26:52):
hired people who simply had done a degree in something
degree didn't need to be a yeah, because he wanted
people who'd learned how to think and to debate. And
and it's an interesting thing. Isn't as opposed to it
does feel And I'm not going to get to the
politics on this, but we just have but this government
has sent more of a signal that they favor utilitarian degrees.
(27:13):
And I'm not sure I mean, we've got well off
the topic of it.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
But I think this government, though, in fairness, is just
reflecting the times that we're in. That's the culture around
the whole world, you know, I mean not the whole world.
There are our countries that it better, but it's not
just New Zealand that's doing that. And I think, you know,
the government is just reflecting where people are out in
their minds and they do think about that. That is
what they're focused on rather than you know, but you
(27:38):
go back on a hundred years ago and if someone
had a degree, you knew, they knew about literature, they
knew about the arts, they had another language, they had
an understanding of music, there was a core set of principles.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
Now we criticize that.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
You can just have it be an expert on the
methane and cow farts and know nothing else. I know
nothing else and I have a PhD in that, and
you're considered it intelligent.
Speaker 7 (27:59):
But that's yeah, that's just how education and shapes and
changes it is.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
It's a fascinating You'll tell you what. Let's let's take
another call. I'm dying to go down that rabbit hole
of conversation by the way I'm resisting it. But actually
we'll take we'll take a break and come back with calls.
In the moment, Nathan Nathan Wallace is with me talking
about failure. But also, I mean, I guess the conversation
with failure it's about just you know, one of those
forks in the road where you try and steer your
kids down a different path, and so the conversation does
(28:25):
extend a bit. But yeah, how did you cope with failure?
And how would you help one of your loved ones
cope with maybe a disappointing nce a result or otherwise.
It's twenty two minutes to say, yes, we're with Nathan
Wallace talking about getting over bad exam results. Basically, Tom, hello, get.
Speaker 10 (28:42):
Out, and then sir, I've never said this publiclyfore, but
I'm going to now with all the talk about exams
nine to fifty three, yep, some normal three hundred of
us window in the hall and we're all past the exam. Yeah,
I went back, but they said, oh, one person didn't.
I went back to the room and Frank Thomas, the teacher,
(29:05):
very nice, They said it was you Tom. Okay, one person,
but there's nothing wrong with me. All year and every
exam paper, which I've still got a lot of it
said first and would reckon first in English?
Speaker 6 (29:20):
How did you cut up with that news?
Speaker 10 (29:23):
I haven't take it. I haven't got over it yet.
Speaker 8 (29:27):
Oh okay, I mean I'm not surprised. That's a lot
to deal with, isn't it. When you're told that three
hundred people and two hundred and ninety nine of them
past and you didn't. That's a hard one, I think
for anyone to absorb.
Speaker 7 (29:38):
Tom difficult.
Speaker 10 (29:41):
The one thing that was amused with there was I
don't know which the film was, but there was a
guy being got out by the judge and he said,
have you got the right case? And I kept thinking
of the best in recent years.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
That well, that sounds like there was handled very badly.
That seems weird, doesn't it. Three hundred people in one
person didn't make the grade?
Speaker 10 (30:03):
What was the point do it? Sorry? What was the
point of system?
Speaker 8 (30:09):
I wouldn't allow them to say one person failed. I
would just say most people passed, because that would make
it much easier on the one person that failed. So
they did handle that very badly. Tom, I'm not surprised
that scarred you for a long time.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
What did you end up doing with life for your life?
Speaker 10 (30:27):
Well, then, I'm glad you asked that, because I when
did my apprenticeship with Savories building and when I left,
I spent seventy Oh well at suden Tech, I went
to certain tech. We learned to draw, make little houses
and Dora and I carried on with that for seventeen
(30:48):
years doing my own plans. Only had one architect once,
factories and things mainly, but there we go.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
Yeah, did you enjoy what you're doing? Did you enjoy
your career what you did? Oh?
Speaker 10 (31:01):
Yeah, well I was. I was always going to build
a house for my mother right from the start.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
So good, Hey, thanks for you all times. That's pretty bloody.
Speaker 7 (31:14):
I love that story.
Speaker 8 (31:15):
But because I'm glad that he you know that he
was went on to be successful. But you know, something
he knew he wanted to do beforehand. He had a
loving but he was still successful on that even though
he went through that quite traumatic experience.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
That does that mean that's just a nutter fail from
whatever the school did? But yeah, uh, there's a text
that says there's no such thing as failure in today's
education system. If a student fails it's not the student's fault.
The responsibility counts back with the teacher, asking why the
student did not pass and and what the teacher did
not do that caused the student to fail.
Speaker 8 (31:46):
Uh, that's there's some part of the person that But
I mean that's an exaggerated statement, really, because I hear
what they're saying. Yeah, they're saying that there's much more
pressure on teachers to get the whole class through and
get them to pass, and that is true, and they
will not now just put the blame on the student,
because it is true. If if all the kids and
that school fail science, then you've got to sort of
(32:07):
look at the science teacher and say there's some responsibility
going on here. But I think it's an exaggeration to
say that students don't take any responsibility. Now, there is
the occasional parent that acts that way. I know that
comes into the school and as the teacher.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
But actually I've remembered what it was around definitions. Remember
it used to be it and that it was steering
me in the face. It used to be you've got
an ab C and C minus got you through, but
then they changed it to achieved and not achieved or
excellence and as if that sort of softened the blow.
(32:41):
But kids work out what the standards are, you know
what I mean. Yeah, it was a funny thing to go, well,
you're not going to have AB's and c's anymore because
that's got a stigma attached to it.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Well, I could say focus on education being much more hierarchical,
whereas like what we want as a competent students who
are able to research, able to have interpersonal skills, so
going achieved. So you're rather achieving that or you're not
and you can achieve it with excellence. That's focusing on
the difference between a B and a C. Is that
really that relevant? We need to know if you've got
(33:12):
excellence to get into med school, but then after that
we really just need to know if you've achieved or not.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
So I think that was the idea behind why they
were doing that.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
Yeah, okay, let's take some more course, tam.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Hello, Yeah, here's a game. Good Hey, good topic. We're
talking about failure in particular. My son goes the cross
stage voice. I said to me, you've got a scholarship actually,
and yeah, well he's a good footy player. If she
(33:42):
ticks in the boxes then, but just talking about failure
in particular, this in CIA system might come from the
system before the school seat. So I'm still getting around
what what what is failure? What is achieved? What is
merit pass? A level one with merrit So I'm still
(34:02):
figuring out where that sits. Is that a seat that
are being still don't really know? Yeah, I thought so,
But I think failure for me is when our kids
can't think independently, you know, when they're just following, towing
the line of the school whatever the curriculum turns out
(34:23):
to be. So for me, it's not a failure as such.
I understand that you know a lot of schools are
going through that.
Speaker 7 (34:30):
But.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
I think if we are to develop and go further
like economies like Japan and South Korea, then we definitely
need to look at AI definitely.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
And what respect.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Well, there needs to be more research than in schooling
about it because a lot of a lot of the
students I see a lot of the students are using
chet GBT to do.
Speaker 6 (34:59):
The assignment that that is. That's a real challenge. Actually, Nathan,
We've got to go a second. But I just realized,
can you I remember weirdly and it's decades ago what
I got in school sert. I remember all my grades.
I couldn't tell you what I got in six or
seventh form, but I remember school sert for some reason.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
Yeah, well I'm the same. Actually, Yeah.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
I suppose that's because that's the first year and it's
such a big deal, and because teachers and parents do
I think often over in size how important it is.
I remember just being told it was going to shape
the whole rest of my life, and just this great,
big deal. And as I got older and realized how
little it was, I sort of thought, oh, I got
ripped off in away. They put all this extra stress
on me, thinking that it was going to help and
(35:41):
motivate me.
Speaker 7 (35:42):
But I can actually, which is easily disengage you.
Speaker 6 (35:45):
It is fun, isn't it? A bizarre memory of exactly
what I got in each subject?
Speaker 7 (35:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
It was never going to be a scientist, even though
I passed that one.
Speaker 8 (35:53):
But I end that I am a scientist, and yet
I only scraped through with school sort of science because
I just don't I didn't have a particular good science teacher.
Wowct that conversation before.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Hey, great to chat to you. Nathan,
thanks for joining us for the first show that you
really appreciate it, mate, No worries, mate, Yeah, we'll do
it again. Thanks mate. That's Nathan Wallace, neuroscience educator. Yes,
it's quite funny, isn't it. You remember exactly the subjects
and the grades and I don't know, that's just hardwired.
And so that wraps up the Parents Squad. We're going
(36:28):
to be back to rap Sport with Christopher Reeve's joining
us from the sales GP and Perth in just a
moment News Talks.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He'd be for more from the Weekend Collective. Listen live
to News Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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