February 24, 2026 • 12 mins
THE BEST BITS IN A SILLIER PACKAGE (from Wednesday's Mike Hosking Breakfast) Why Do They Want the Same?/How Unions Roll/Some Economies Work Differently to Others/Be Careful Who You Call a Victim/That About Wraps it Up for Sport
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk said be
follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Rewrap.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Okay there and welcome to the Rewrap for Wednesday, all
the best bits from the mic casting breakfast on news Talks.
He'd be and a sillier package. I am Glen Hart
today the primary teachers are the only holdouts and pay negotiations.
What's that about? We found out this morning the Marie economy.
Mike's going to delve into this carefully. I hope who
(00:49):
is Peter Attire and what's he done? Is he a victim?
And some results? It seems to be results time this
time of year, whatever that means. Before any of that,
the pay equity conversation keeps on going, and I don't
think Mike's have really been a fan. I think it's
(01:10):
a flawed argument.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
According to him, Marilyn Waring, remember the name. Once an activist,
always an activist, took it upon herself to form her
own select committee, if you don't mind, and she and
a bunch of other MPs and interested parties open their
doors for submissions on pay equity and the changes the
government made that they don't like now When doors like
that are opened, people of like minds tend to wander through,
and they sit around all agreeing with each other about
(01:31):
how bad things are. The Ensuing report, which came out yesterday,
tells you exactly what you thought it might. Now. The
problem with pay equity is it's an unsolvable problem unless
you take on a North Korea Cuba type view of
the world and simply get the government to make all
the rules. The simple tooth of it is different jobs
have different values. Another truths some women choose work that
doesn't pay as much as other work. Men do as well,
(01:52):
but not as much. Some of the work that doesn't
pay as much as predominantly done by women. The most
famous case involved a woman called Bartlet and the aged
care sector. Rightly or wrongly, jobs of compassion and care
tend to be done by females. I would argue that's
largely because they tend to be nicer people overall, but
that would probably lead to a charge of me being sexist,
which I am not. What I am is a realist,
(02:14):
and you can see the issue. Should age care workers
be paid more, probably, but if they were, who would
fill that bill? Well? The people paying the age care bills. Obviously,
could we artificially boost their pay? Well, that is where
we got into dreadful trouble. They ended up comparing aged
care workers with mechanics and got a mass of pay
rise troublers. It was always false. Mechanics not age care
workers anymore than air stewards are. You can look for commonalities,
(02:37):
twist logic all you want, but you either artificially mess
with it or you let the market be the market.
Most jobs have a rationale as to why they pay
what they do, and at all times, all jobs are
open to all people, depending on desire and skill. So
essentially Marilyn and her mates have wasted their time. Logic wins,
the market wins. If you want more money, do a
job that pays more male or female.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I've never understood why women want equal pay when they
clearly deserve far more paid. I've made this argument before.
It seems to have falling on to affairs. Men are useless,
women are wonderful. Into story, it's the rewrap. Anyway, while
we're talking pay the primary teachers, it's not just about pay,
(03:21):
is it? It never is for the unions? Is it's
never just about pay?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Was that thing that surprised to you that they're hanging
out for the Treaty of Whitang. It was a surprise
to me. I thought it was about money. But because
last time we did a story on this program about
the primary schools, they were telling us how the kids
were coming to school and they couldn't hold a pencil.
Remember that story a couple of weeks ago, to come
to school. They couldn't hold a pencil, and they didn't
know their name, and they couldn't spell their name, and
they couldn't read, They couldn't write, they couldn't toilet. That
(03:45):
was seemingly their major problem. But of course, knowing about
the Treaty White Tang is going to fix that because
once you know about the Treaty White Tangi, you can
instantly hold a pencil. Isn't that how it works or not?
I don't know. So what's the real problem here, kids
who are not being educated properly at preschool and therefore
turn up at primary school ill prepared and ill equipped
to deal with the modern education system. Or are we
(04:05):
worried about the Treaty of White Tang. I mean, for
God's sake, goodbye, was Brian Roach, I'd retire, Not that
he's not doing a good job, but how many days
do you want to go to the office to deal
with crap like that? I mean, honestly, and I mean
how long before the primary union? So you've got the principles.
They've ticked it off, the secondaries have ticked it off.
It's all money wise, it's all roughly the same. It's
about two point five and two point one. So the
(04:26):
money is there, it's not great. Would you like more? Sure?
If I had more money, i'd pay you more money.
But we don't have any money. We've got less than
no money. You can thank your labor union mates for that.
So we've all agreed on the money. But on know,
just let's have another chat about the treaty Why Tangy?
Shall we talk about hold the country back?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Is it because some of the people who signed the
Treaty of White Tangy didn't know how to hold a
pencil either? And when you have a close look at
the list of signatures, there's quite a few ex's on there.
Not relevant? Okay, rewrap actually and I clumsily have stumbled
(05:02):
into this. Now let's talk to the Madi economy.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
We've got a couple of things to say about the
list of the largest players in the so called mariaonomy.
If you saw this TDB advisory crunch, the numbers the
top ten collectively have had an annual return of three
point nine percent. Now that perhaps indicates their specific view
of the world and objectives as opposed to chasing bigger riches,
because there's plenty more money out there to be made
if they wanted to. Part of the problem for some
I read with interest has been the reliance on government money.
(05:28):
Grants and contracts have been cut back, which is a
lesson to us all. I would have thought the tax
tap from Wellington is an easy thing to get used to,
but it's often done on a whim or ideology, not
business acumen, so as quickly as it arrives, it can disappear.
But the inescapable thing about all the numbers is the
size of some of these operators and the time in
which they've been able to build. Tayinnui, for example, are
(05:48):
the top of the pile. They've got over two billion
dollars worth of assets. Tinui signed their deal back in
nineteen ninety five. They've got almost one hundred thousand members
benefiting from that arrangement. Napui, on the other hand, no
deal at all. They're not in the top ten. They're
not in the top of anything. They're the biggest of
the players yet to settle. There are others, but they're
small fry. Why do you reckon or what do you reckon?
The damage's bid to those that could not even get
(06:11):
out of their own way? How much have they missed out?
On ah Tayannu? We have three decades of growth and
expansion and returns group like Naipo, we have zero See
for all the agro and the angst and the finger
pointing and the trips to the Waitangi tribunal, how much
of marriedom is bogged down in the past and arguing
about it? And how much of marriedom saw the opportunity
when it arrived, jumped on it and have been sailing
(06:31):
away ever since. And for those that remain angry and
upset and want to relitigate it all over and over
and over again, just how many more years are your
tayannuis in? Naitahu's simply going to keep on investing and
reaping rewards while the others stand on the roadside watching
life pass them by. It is why we should have
drawn a line years ago, set a date, settle your deals,
get the checks and the apologies done, and move forward.
(06:54):
See in marriedom like life, some do, some don't, Some
are never destined to.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, I think I'm going to leave that there. Actually, um,
I'm going to draw a line there and not talk
about it anymore. Now, if we can just get everybody
else to do that, great rewrap. I'm not sure when
we're ever going to be able to draw a line
under the Epstein all out, which just seems to continue
(07:23):
affecting some people. I've never heard of Tea quit.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Do you find Peter or Tea? My wife knows more
about him than I do, in the sense that he's
a heavyweight in the medical circles and longevity, and he's
been a great success story. He came from an interesting
past in the sense he used to be a bit troubled,
but he got his act together. When he was troubled,
he was involved with Epstein, and this is where it's
all gone wrong for him. So there were emails back
(07:47):
and forth. There's no suggesting he did anything wrong, but
the argument now in America is he probably, being a
medico should have reported Epstein. He claims he didn't know anyway,
the pressure has been on him for the last couple
of days. He's sort of he kind of works for CBS,
and CBS have kind of sacked them. Well, he's quit,
so he's another one of those sort of victims that
(08:07):
seeming was in the wrong place at the wrong time,
didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but now reputation's toast.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with how liberally
Mike spreads the word victim around an association with some
of the people involved with Epstein, And I don't mean
his actual victims, because yeah, I'm pretty sure that people
(08:34):
like Andrew, people like Mendelssohn, people like the guy. It's
I kind of understand what Mike says is that they've
fallen victim to the circumstances here, but they are not
victims by any stretch of the imagination. I think we
(08:55):
would have made that quite cleat so rewrap. Now let's
finish up talking about how absolutely bloody useless we are
at national things like well, I don't know, airlines, nepball
of rugby.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I mentioned Quantus a moment ago. Etyard Overnight has announced
their profit, just the fifty percent jump in profit to
just let's call it, seven hundred million, increased capacity, strong demand,
lifted load factor, passenger numbers up twenty one percent, fleets expanding,
twenty nine new jets. They're seeing continued demand rising this year,
load factors eighty eight percent last year. We're getting many
(09:31):
many days at ninety percent. New markets are performing much
better than they thought. They're into Prague, they're into Hanoi,
they're into Hong Kong, they're further expanding into China, Southeast Asia, Europe.
I wish they're coming here. They're a good airline. Focus
on keeping the retrofit program on schedule because they had
plain issues like everybody else. Tomorrow in New Zealand's going
to announce a loss. I'll just reiterate the yard number,
(09:52):
seven hundred million dollars profit, increase in passenger numbers twenty
one percent. When does the New Zealand turn around? That's
what I want to forget, the numbers, all the bottom
line yesterday tomorrow I want to know. And Nichols on
the program Friday, am I correct and saying that the
new head of the CEO of the New Zealand. What
I want to know is when the turnaround's on. This
can't go on. It's gone on for years, and I mean,
(10:13):
yes there's engine troubles, and yes there's plane troubles. I
get all of that, but the demand is there. The
world is flying, and they're flying at the front of
the plane. Eventually we've got to at some point demand
something that looks like a pathway that leads us to
the days when in New Zealand we're making five or
six hundred million dollars profit a year. How long before
we get back to there? Then we come to speaking
(10:33):
of only fifty thousand dollars, which doesn't bother me in
the slightest is what it cost to inquire into no
Lean Tarrua and that whole silver Fern's nonsense high performance
sports money guy Darren Shann remember the name of the
all ex manager. Actually get me on to the union.
What's going on with the union? For God's sake, is
this invented job time at the New Zealand Rugby Union.
So they haven't got a CEO, they haven't got a coach,
(10:56):
but we've got time to invent new jobs. And the
guy who's the interim CEO gets one of those new jobs,
which means I'm assuming he wanted to be the CEO,
but he's not the CEO. He's now one of the
new job people. I mean, come on, when does it
stop looking ridiculous and start to look like a team
that might win the World Cup? Where was I high
Performance Sport in New Zealand? They hired Dre Darren Shand
(11:17):
and Tracy Fear and they had a look around the
place and they spent fifty thousand dollars on it. That's
not the problem. The problem is the problem. Did they,
in looking at the silver Ferns solve the problem? So
the CEO's gone, the chairman's gone, several of the board
(11:39):
members are gone. As far as I know, there are
no replacements. So they're like the rugby union. They've got
no one working at the place. And the problem was
people felt quote unquote unsafe. So what do you get
for your fifty thousand dollars? I don't mind spending money
on stuff that you can go, well, we spent fifteen years.
What we got? What'd you get? A lot of sports
(12:00):
in a lot of trouble in this country on there?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, how Chris Bishop's trying to combine a lot of
the councils together there and get rid of quite a
few of them and stock all the double ups. Could
he then extend that out to the sports organizations as well,
which seem to be most of them stumbling along without
really any real leadership at the moment, and perhaps we
can centralize that a bit more, and rather than having
(12:22):
a netball association and a rugby union, just just combine
it all. I am a head of the Podcast Association
of New Zealand. I'm not I'm a fringe outlier and
I'll be back here doing some more fringe outlying stuff tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
See then for more from News Talks at b Listen
live on air or online, and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk said be
follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Rewrap.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Okay there and welcome to the Rewrap for Wednesday, all
the best bits from the mic casting breakfast on news Talks.
He'd be and a sillier package. I am Glen Hart
today the primary teachers are the only holdouts and pay negotiations.
What's that about? We found out this morning the Marie economy.
Mike's going to delve into this carefully. I hope who
(00:49):
is Peter Attire and what's he done? Is he a victim?
And some results? It seems to be results time this
time of year, whatever that means. Before any of that,
the pay equity conversation keeps on going, and I don't
think Mike's have really been a fan. I think it's
(01:10):
a flawed argument.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
According to him, Marilyn Waring, remember the name. Once an activist,
always an activist, took it upon herself to form her
own select committee, if you don't mind, and she and
a bunch of other MPs and interested parties open their
doors for submissions on pay equity and the changes the
government made that they don't like now When doors like
that are opened, people of like minds tend to wander through,
and they sit around all agreeing with each other about
(01:31):
how bad things are. The Ensuing report, which came out yesterday,
tells you exactly what you thought it might. Now. The
problem with pay equity is it's an unsolvable problem unless
you take on a North Korea Cuba type view of
the world and simply get the government to make all
the rules. The simple tooth of it is different jobs
have different values. Another truths some women choose work that
doesn't pay as much as other work. Men do as well,
(01:52):
but not as much. Some of the work that doesn't
pay as much as predominantly done by women. The most
famous case involved a woman called Bartlet and the aged
care sector. Rightly or wrongly, jobs of compassion and care
tend to be done by females. I would argue that's
largely because they tend to be nicer people overall, but
that would probably lead to a charge of me being sexist,
which I am not. What I am is a realist,
(02:14):
and you can see the issue. Should age care workers
be paid more, probably, but if they were, who would
fill that bill? Well? The people paying the age care bills. Obviously,
could we artificially boost their pay? Well, that is where
we got into dreadful trouble. They ended up comparing aged
care workers with mechanics and got a mass of pay
rise troublers. It was always false. Mechanics not age care
workers anymore than air stewards are. You can look for commonalities,
(02:37):
twist logic all you want, but you either artificially mess
with it or you let the market be the market.
Most jobs have a rationale as to why they pay
what they do, and at all times, all jobs are
open to all people, depending on desire and skill. So
essentially Marilyn and her mates have wasted their time. Logic wins,
the market wins. If you want more money, do a
job that pays more male or female.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I've never understood why women want equal pay when they
clearly deserve far more paid. I've made this argument before.
It seems to have falling on to affairs. Men are useless,
women are wonderful. Into story, it's the rewrap. Anyway, while
we're talking pay the primary teachers, it's not just about pay,
(03:21):
is it? It never is for the unions? Is it's
never just about pay?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Was that thing that surprised to you that they're hanging
out for the Treaty of Whitang. It was a surprise
to me. I thought it was about money. But because
last time we did a story on this program about
the primary schools, they were telling us how the kids
were coming to school and they couldn't hold a pencil.
Remember that story a couple of weeks ago, to come
to school. They couldn't hold a pencil, and they didn't
know their name, and they couldn't spell their name, and
they couldn't read, They couldn't write, they couldn't toilet. That
(03:45):
was seemingly their major problem. But of course, knowing about
the Treaty White Tang is going to fix that because
once you know about the Treaty White Tangi, you can
instantly hold a pencil. Isn't that how it works or not?
I don't know. So what's the real problem here, kids
who are not being educated properly at preschool and therefore
turn up at primary school ill prepared and ill equipped
to deal with the modern education system. Or are we
(04:05):
worried about the Treaty of White Tang. I mean, for
God's sake, goodbye, was Brian Roach, I'd retire, Not that
he's not doing a good job, but how many days
do you want to go to the office to deal
with crap like that? I mean, honestly, and I mean
how long before the primary union? So you've got the principles.
They've ticked it off, the secondaries have ticked it off.
It's all money wise, it's all roughly the same. It's
about two point five and two point one. So the
(04:26):
money is there, it's not great. Would you like more? Sure?
If I had more money, i'd pay you more money.
But we don't have any money. We've got less than
no money. You can thank your labor union mates for that.
So we've all agreed on the money. But on know,
just let's have another chat about the treaty Why Tangy?
Shall we talk about hold the country back?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Is it because some of the people who signed the
Treaty of White Tangy didn't know how to hold a
pencil either? And when you have a close look at
the list of signatures, there's quite a few ex's on there.
Not relevant? Okay, rewrap actually and I clumsily have stumbled
(05:02):
into this. Now let's talk to the Madi economy.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
We've got a couple of things to say about the
list of the largest players in the so called mariaonomy.
If you saw this TDB advisory crunch, the numbers the
top ten collectively have had an annual return of three
point nine percent. Now that perhaps indicates their specific view
of the world and objectives as opposed to chasing bigger riches,
because there's plenty more money out there to be made
if they wanted to. Part of the problem for some
I read with interest has been the reliance on government money.
(05:28):
Grants and contracts have been cut back, which is a
lesson to us all. I would have thought the tax
tap from Wellington is an easy thing to get used to,
but it's often done on a whim or ideology, not
business acumen, so as quickly as it arrives, it can disappear.
But the inescapable thing about all the numbers is the
size of some of these operators and the time in
which they've been able to build. Tayinnui, for example, are
(05:48):
the top of the pile. They've got over two billion
dollars worth of assets. Tinui signed their deal back in
nineteen ninety five. They've got almost one hundred thousand members
benefiting from that arrangement. Napui, on the other hand, no
deal at all. They're not in the top ten. They're
not in the top of anything. They're the biggest of
the players yet to settle. There are others, but they're
small fry. Why do you reckon or what do you reckon?
The damage's bid to those that could not even get
(06:11):
out of their own way? How much have they missed out?
On ah Tayannu? We have three decades of growth and
expansion and returns group like Naipo, we have zero See
for all the agro and the angst and the finger
pointing and the trips to the Waitangi tribunal, how much
of marriedom is bogged down in the past and arguing
about it? And how much of marriedom saw the opportunity
when it arrived, jumped on it and have been sailing
(06:31):
away ever since. And for those that remain angry and
upset and want to relitigate it all over and over
and over again, just how many more years are your
tayannuis in? Naitahu's simply going to keep on investing and
reaping rewards while the others stand on the roadside watching
life pass them by. It is why we should have
drawn a line years ago, set a date, settle your deals,
get the checks and the apologies done, and move forward.
(06:54):
See in marriedom like life, some do, some don't, Some
are never destined to.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, I think I'm going to leave that there. Actually, um,
I'm going to draw a line there and not talk
about it anymore. Now, if we can just get everybody
else to do that, great rewrap. I'm not sure when
we're ever going to be able to draw a line
under the Epstein all out, which just seems to continue
(07:23):
affecting some people. I've never heard of Tea quit.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Do you find Peter or Tea? My wife knows more
about him than I do, in the sense that he's
a heavyweight in the medical circles and longevity, and he's
been a great success story. He came from an interesting
past in the sense he used to be a bit troubled,
but he got his act together. When he was troubled,
he was involved with Epstein, and this is where it's
all gone wrong for him. So there were emails back
(07:47):
and forth. There's no suggesting he did anything wrong, but
the argument now in America is he probably, being a
medico should have reported Epstein. He claims he didn't know anyway,
the pressure has been on him for the last couple
of days. He's sort of he kind of works for CBS,
and CBS have kind of sacked them. Well, he's quit,
so he's another one of those sort of victims that
(08:07):
seeming was in the wrong place at the wrong time,
didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but now reputation's toast.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Am I the only one who's uncomfortable with how liberally
Mike spreads the word victim around an association with some
of the people involved with Epstein, And I don't mean
his actual victims, because yeah, I'm pretty sure that people
(08:34):
like Andrew, people like Mendelssohn, people like the guy. It's
I kind of understand what Mike says is that they've
fallen victim to the circumstances here, but they are not
victims by any stretch of the imagination. I think we
(08:55):
would have made that quite cleat so rewrap. Now let's
finish up talking about how absolutely bloody useless we are
at national things like well, I don't know, airlines, nepball
of rugby.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I mentioned Quantus a moment ago. Etyard Overnight has announced
their profit, just the fifty percent jump in profit to
just let's call it, seven hundred million, increased capacity, strong demand,
lifted load factor, passenger numbers up twenty one percent, fleets expanding,
twenty nine new jets. They're seeing continued demand rising this year,
load factors eighty eight percent last year. We're getting many
(09:31):
many days at ninety percent. New markets are performing much
better than they thought. They're into Prague, they're into Hanoi,
they're into Hong Kong, they're further expanding into China, Southeast Asia, Europe.
I wish they're coming here. They're a good airline. Focus
on keeping the retrofit program on schedule because they had
plain issues like everybody else. Tomorrow in New Zealand's going
to announce a loss. I'll just reiterate the yard number,
(09:52):
seven hundred million dollars profit, increase in passenger numbers twenty
one percent. When does the New Zealand turn around? That's
what I want to forget, the numbers, all the bottom
line yesterday tomorrow I want to know. And Nichols on
the program Friday, am I correct and saying that the
new head of the CEO of the New Zealand. What
I want to know is when the turnaround's on. This
can't go on. It's gone on for years, and I mean,
(10:13):
yes there's engine troubles, and yes there's plane troubles. I
get all of that, but the demand is there. The
world is flying, and they're flying at the front of
the plane. Eventually we've got to at some point demand
something that looks like a pathway that leads us to
the days when in New Zealand we're making five or
six hundred million dollars profit a year. How long before
we get back to there? Then we come to speaking
(10:33):
of only fifty thousand dollars, which doesn't bother me in
the slightest is what it cost to inquire into no
Lean Tarrua and that whole silver Fern's nonsense high performance
sports money guy Darren Shann remember the name of the
all ex manager. Actually get me on to the union.
What's going on with the union? For God's sake, is
this invented job time at the New Zealand Rugby Union.
So they haven't got a CEO, they haven't got a coach,
(10:56):
but we've got time to invent new jobs. And the
guy who's the interim CEO gets one of those new jobs,
which means I'm assuming he wanted to be the CEO,
but he's not the CEO. He's now one of the
new job people. I mean, come on, when does it
stop looking ridiculous and start to look like a team
that might win the World Cup? Where was I high
Performance Sport in New Zealand? They hired Dre Darren Shand
(11:17):
and Tracy Fear and they had a look around the
place and they spent fifty thousand dollars on it. That's
not the problem. The problem is the problem. Did they,
in looking at the silver Ferns solve the problem? So
the CEO's gone, the chairman's gone, several of the board
(11:39):
members are gone. As far as I know, there are
no replacements. So they're like the rugby union. They've got
no one working at the place. And the problem was
people felt quote unquote unsafe. So what do you get
for your fifty thousand dollars? I don't mind spending money
on stuff that you can go, well, we spent fifteen years.
What we got? What'd you get? A lot of sports
(12:00):
in a lot of trouble in this country on there?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, how Chris Bishop's trying to combine a lot of
the councils together there and get rid of quite a
few of them and stock all the double ups. Could
he then extend that out to the sports organizations as well,
which seem to be most of them stumbling along without
really any real leadership at the moment, and perhaps we
can centralize that a bit more, and rather than having
(12:22):
a netball association and a rugby union, just just combine
it all. I am a head of the Podcast Association
of New Zealand. I'm not I'm a fringe outlier and
I'll be back here doing some more fringe outlying stuff tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
See then for more from News Talks at b Listen
live on air or online, and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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Kingdom of Fraud
It’s the unlikeliest of criminal partnerships: a devout polygamist from an insular Utah sect joining forces with a shadowy Armenian tycoon from LA. The result - a billion dollar fraud conspiracy. In Kingdom of Fraud, investigative reporter Michele McPhee traces the origins of the extraordinary alliance between Jacob Kingston and Levon Termendzhyan. Together, the two men trigger the largest tax investigation in American history and weave around themselves a web of dirty cops, influential political relationships and transnational money laundering. All this is set against the backdrop of Jacob Kingston’s clan – The Order. A powerful and secretive polygamist organization in Salt Lake City. To whom Jacob is desperate to prove his worth. Kingdom of Fraud is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit https://novel.audio/. You can listen to new episodes of Kingdom of Fraud completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Open your Apple Podcasts app, search for “iHeart True Crime+, and subscribe today!