March 28, 2026 • 15 mins
The life and journey of former Prime Minister Helen Clark is set to be explored in a new play set to hit Auckland's ASB Waterfront Theatre this April.
Helen Clark in Six Outfits will trace her journey from the farm in Waikato where she grew up all the way to taking on the top role in the Beehive.
The play was written by Kiwi actress and writer Fiona Samuel - and she says she worked to find the story in the facts about the former Prime Minister's life.
"I did know that there was going to be humour in it, but I thought - humour alone won't get you through an evening in the theatre, you've got to have some substance. So what is the substance here? What are the moments, what are the other characters?"
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A witty play about one of our former prime ministers
is about to hit theaters for its world premiere. Helen
Clark in Six Outfits is a satire telling the life
story of the former labor leader and prime ministers through
the lens of six key outfits. The show was written
by ward winning playwright Fiona Samuel. The premiers in Auckland
and just over a week and Fiona is with me now,
(00:33):
good morning, lovely to have you with us, Thank you.
You were approached by Auckland Theater Company Artistic director Jonathan
Bileski with a two word brief. He said to you,
Helen Clark, now, what do you do with that?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
What was your reaction exactly? My reaction was my mouth
was a little bit open. I was catching flies, and
I was thinking this could go a million different ways.
This does not feel like a simple proposition. I really
appreciated the fact that he wasn't telling me what kind
(01:08):
of play about Helen Clark he wanted. That was great,
But then I had to I thought, Okay, I've got
to figure this out for myself, and the first question
is to find my way into this maze, because there
are many ways in and many ways out. Every decision
leads to another decision. So when you feel completely in
(01:31):
the dark, like I did, the only thing to do is, well,
I decided to gather information. I thought, I need a
lot more facts. And then when I've got a big
mountain of facts, I'm gonna find out if there's a
way that I can tunnel into that mountain.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Because Helen Clark feels like quite an intimidating figure to
make a play.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, you don't want to get stuff wrong by accident,
Let's put it that way. I think there is a
way in which you might get things wrong on purpose.
I didn't set out to get things wrong on purpose,
because I thought, why would you do that, you know,
give a deliberately misleading impression or portrayal of a person.
But I did set out to be somewhat provocative and
(02:19):
mischievous in that I thought, it's not my job to
receive the dominant narrative, like whether it's the media's narrative,
or whether it's her friends and colleagues, or whether it's
her own narrative, it's not my job just to replicate
the story as someone else would tell it. It's my
(02:40):
job to find the story as I would tell it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Oh, you're asking all the hard questions. This morning, after
I had gathered the facts I her was kind of
like throwing jelly at the wall and seeing what six
I thought of all this mountain of information that I've accumulated,
What are the things that stand out to me? What
(03:08):
are the things that make this story distinctive and crunchy?
Because you know, it's got to be a drama. I
always thought that it would be funny, and that I
wanted it to be funny. That was a strong part
of my instinctive feeling about the tone of the play,
which is different from this story or the you know,
the approach, how you're actually going to put it in
(03:29):
the space. I did know that there was going to
be humor in it, but I thought humor alone won't
get you through an evening in the theater. You've got
to have some substances. So what is the substance here?
What are the moments? What are the other characters? What
are the moments? Like if I was writing this as
a movie, what are the key scenes what stays in
(03:52):
my mind, and sometimes I call them trailer moments. You think,
if this was a movie and there was a trailer
of this movie, what are the moments that you would
need to see in the trailer to make you go, ah,
I get the feeling of what this story is. So
I started to hope women on those kinds of things.
But it really wasn't until I had the idea about
(04:12):
the clothes that it fell into place.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Which makes a huge amount of sense sense because there
was just such a commentary on her clothes and appearance,
and speculation about sexuality and things like that, all of
that that only a female politician would do.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That that's right, And I thought, nowadays, we've got terminology
for that, Like it's actually in the play that she
got the liners. You got sledged for your inadequate performance
of gender. This is what the younger Helen Clark says
to the older Helen Clark, and the older Helen Clark
just says, you don't know those words yet, because when
(04:52):
she started out, nobody would have put it in that way,
but that is what happened to her. It's like, there's
a certain way that you're meant to play this role
called woman or female politician, and you're not doing it right.
She got told that constantly, you are not doing it right.
(05:13):
And yet she was ah, super capable, very effective politician,
one of our best in my personal opinion. But none
of the conversation was about that.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You say, she didn't have the words for it. We
do have the words for it now. But do you
think it has changed it all when it comes to
women in public roles.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I'd like to think so, but I look at
the evidence and I say no. I think there is
still a massive amount of completely unnecessary commentary on things
that have nothing to do with the job in hand,
nothing to do with it at all. And all you
have to do is flip the picture and go, Are
(05:54):
the men being asked about that? Are they being asked
about their hair, about their clothes, about their marriages, about
their children, about their mental health? About them? Are addictions
of you know that they're not and they can and
do mess up quite spectacularly on the daily, extraordinary things
(06:17):
that women would be crucified for. And it's like there's
some kind of get out of jail free card which
is that they're men. And yeah, so while I would
like to think it was equal opportunity to stuff up.
I think we all know that it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Have you talked to Helen Clark? Does she know that
this play is happening.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yes, she does know that this play is happening, and
yes I have talked to her. But I held off
until very late in the process. I held off until
I'd actually completed the writing of the script because I
wanted I wanted to keep my approach pure, because I
(07:04):
knew that it wasn't a document, it wasn't simply a
fact finding mission. I felt like I'd already done the
fact finding mission part of the process in doing all
my background reading. And I did think if, in the
process of speaking with Helen I'm thinking that there are
factual errors in what I've done, of course I'll change them.
(07:27):
I'm not going to stick to my guns in the
face of superior evidence. But neither do I have an
obligation to reflect her own take on her journey.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
How did she take it? I mean it must be
it must be quite daunting for her to know that
there is a clay thing written about her.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think so. I mean, I can if I put
myself in those shoes, I think, holy smoke, I think
I would take a very standing, quite a long way
back approach to it. I think that's what Hellan was doing,
certainly initially that she was aware of it, she knew
(08:11):
it was happening, but never attempted to have any kind
of editorial control. And she's smart, you know, she's smart
in very many ways. But she's also smart about you know,
what art is, what theater is. She will know that
it's a take, it's not definitive, it's not the last word,
(08:33):
it's not an Encyclopedia entry. It is a piece of theater.
And I think possibly of all of our former prime ministers,
she would have a better understanding of that than anyone.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm sure she'll be very pleased at Jennifer Woodland is
playing her as the adult Helen. I can't wait to
see her in this role. You've made a bit of
a habit of basing your work around real life's people
and stories. Is there a particular draw for you to that?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Often it's not something that I set out to do, Like,
I'll never say, Okay, now I'm casting around for another
real life story that I might tell. What hooks you
in a story?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Is.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Oh, it's a bit of a mystery, and it's one
that I never want to probe too closely. But it
has to be that there are questions that you want
to answer. It feels substantial to you. It feels like
something you might spend several years of your life on
because often that's what it turns out to be. And
maybe two. As I crack on that, just the shape
(09:40):
of a life becomes increasingly fascinating. Almost any life. I think,
if you dug into this, where do you find the
turning points, Where do you find the decisive moments, Where
do you find the formative experiences? What is it that
makes this person who they are? And where are the
(10:01):
moments where it might have gone differently, you know, the
sliding door moments. Those were very Those questions were uppermost
in my mind on Pike River a lot of the
time because with Anna Osborne and Sonya Rockhouse, the two
real life heroines of the Pike River Story as it
was told in the film, they would constantly say, we're
(10:25):
just ordinary people. We just did what anyone would have done.
But from a dramatist's perspective, that's so not true. They
did what very few people would have done.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Last year was a biguere for you, As you said,
Pike River, the screenplay that you wrote, that the film
was released, this play was announced, you won the Catherine
Mansfield Ment on Fellowship. Is this the nature of being
in the arts? It's sort of all or nothing at times?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Very much so. It's not a smooth ride. It's incredibly unpredictable,
and it's incredibly uncertaindictuously. So at any given time, there
are so many things you don't know about how your
year is going to unfold. You don't necessarily know where
you're going to be living, You don't know how much
money you're going to have. You don't know which of
(11:19):
the six possible projects that you've got on the go
is going to move forward and which ones are going
to fall over. And there've been years when they all
fall over and nobody knows about those ones because there's
nothing to tell. But yeah, some days you wake up
and you think, what a mug's game? So you're right,
last year was a very good year, But they're not
(11:41):
all like that.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Is writing where you're most happy you do everything?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But is writing where you kind.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Of I do love it? It feels like a very
natural place for me to be. I also love directing,
and the combo of writing and then directing, that's a
great one, that's deeply satisfying. Said I think writing is
a very natural place for me to be, and when
(12:11):
it's directing, I think, Okay, you've got to get up
on your hind legs for this. You know, you've got
to summon your energy, you've got to crank up your
metabolic rate. You've got to go into action mode and
contemplation mode and swimming around in the unknown mode is
a more natural fit for me. But I can do action,
(12:32):
and when you do it, it's very stimulating. You know.
When you do it, I go oh, I want more
of that, and then I sink back into my happy place.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And you'll be sinking back into some contemplation. I imagine when
you head to the south of France, when do you
take up that fellowship.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I'm leaving New Zealand on the thirtieth of April.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Fantastic, just in time for winter, skipping off almost.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yes, skipping the New Zealand winter and arriving in the
French spring.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And what is the plan for your time there?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Well, I'm working on another stage where it's a stage
adaptation of recent New Zealand book, very powerful and fascinating book.
I'm keeping the lid on my pot pretty much. They're
not letting her escape. But you know, having gone back
into the world of stage with Helen Klass after spending
(13:25):
a long time in the world of film and television,
I'm really alive to the possibilities of stage of live performance,
particularly now in this You know, we spend so much
of our life on screens, and I love the on
screen entertainment as much as anybody else. But there is
a particular charge that only comes from a bunch of
(13:48):
people sitting in a room and the lights go down
and the lights come up on the special arena that
is the stage, and that thrill of what's going to happen,
whatever it is, it's going to unfold in front of me,
and a real life human is going to do it
in front of me. That that charge new in love
with that all over again.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That is brilliant. And look just really quickly Helen Clark's
six outfits. Did you know which ones they'd be? Did
you have them in the back of your mind?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
That that was part of the fun having a massed
all the information and then when I did that bit
of going Okay, what sticks, what are the key scenes?
What am I feeling? And then I put on the
glasses of the clothes and thought, okay, not talking now
about key moments, but thinking key outfits. What outfits am
(14:37):
I seeing? Ah, they almost chose themselves. There we go,
and then I knew it was game on. I love it.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Thank you so much. Helen Clark in Six Outfits is
on at Auckland's ASB Waterfront Theater from April seventh to
the twenty sixth. The tickets and more information head to
ATC dot co dot z. Fiona, thank you so much
for coming in love you to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
For more from the Sunday session with Franchess Rodkin. Listen
live to News Talks A B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A witty play about one of our former prime ministers
is about to hit theaters for its world premiere. Helen
Clark in Six Outfits is a satire telling the life
story of the former labor leader and prime ministers through
the lens of six key outfits. The show was written
by ward winning playwright Fiona Samuel. The premiers in Auckland
and just over a week and Fiona is with me now,
(00:33):
good morning, lovely to have you with us, Thank you.
You were approached by Auckland Theater Company Artistic director Jonathan
Bileski with a two word brief. He said to you,
Helen Clark, now, what do you do with that?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
What was your reaction exactly? My reaction was my mouth
was a little bit open. I was catching flies, and
I was thinking this could go a million different ways.
This does not feel like a simple proposition. I really
appreciated the fact that he wasn't telling me what kind
(01:08):
of play about Helen Clark he wanted. That was great,
But then I had to I thought, Okay, I've got
to figure this out for myself, and the first question
is to find my way into this maze, because there
are many ways in and many ways out. Every decision
leads to another decision. So when you feel completely in
(01:31):
the dark, like I did, the only thing to do is, well,
I decided to gather information. I thought, I need a
lot more facts. And then when I've got a big
mountain of facts, I'm gonna find out if there's a
way that I can tunnel into that mountain.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Because Helen Clark feels like quite an intimidating figure to
make a play.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, you don't want to get stuff wrong by accident,
Let's put it that way. I think there is a
way in which you might get things wrong on purpose.
I didn't set out to get things wrong on purpose,
because I thought, why would you do that, you know,
give a deliberately misleading impression or portrayal of a person.
But I did set out to be somewhat provocative and
(02:19):
mischievous in that I thought, it's not my job to
receive the dominant narrative, like whether it's the media's narrative,
or whether it's her friends and colleagues, or whether it's
her own narrative, it's not my job just to replicate
the story as someone else would tell it. It's my
(02:40):
job to find the story as I would tell it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Oh, you're asking all the hard questions. This morning, after
I had gathered the facts I her was kind of
like throwing jelly at the wall and seeing what six
I thought of all this mountain of information that I've accumulated,
What are the things that stand out to me? What
(03:08):
are the things that make this story distinctive and crunchy?
Because you know, it's got to be a drama. I
always thought that it would be funny, and that I
wanted it to be funny. That was a strong part
of my instinctive feeling about the tone of the play,
which is different from this story or the you know,
the approach, how you're actually going to put it in
(03:29):
the space. I did know that there was going to
be humor in it, but I thought humor alone won't
get you through an evening in the theater. You've got
to have some substances. So what is the substance here?
What are the moments? What are the other characters? What
are the moments? Like if I was writing this as
a movie, what are the key scenes what stays in
(03:52):
my mind, and sometimes I call them trailer moments. You think,
if this was a movie and there was a trailer
of this movie, what are the moments that you would
need to see in the trailer to make you go, ah,
I get the feeling of what this story is. So
I started to hope women on those kinds of things.
But it really wasn't until I had the idea about
(04:12):
the clothes that it fell into place.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Which makes a huge amount of sense sense because there
was just such a commentary on her clothes and appearance,
and speculation about sexuality and things like that, all of
that that only a female politician would do.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
That that's right, And I thought, nowadays, we've got terminology
for that, Like it's actually in the play that she
got the liners. You got sledged for your inadequate performance
of gender. This is what the younger Helen Clark says
to the older Helen Clark, and the older Helen Clark
just says, you don't know those words yet, because when
(04:52):
she started out, nobody would have put it in that way,
but that is what happened to her. It's like, there's
a certain way that you're meant to play this role
called woman or female politician, and you're not doing it right.
She got told that constantly, you are not doing it right.
(05:13):
And yet she was ah, super capable, very effective politician,
one of our best in my personal opinion. But none
of the conversation was about that.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You say, she didn't have the words for it. We
do have the words for it now. But do you
think it has changed it all when it comes to
women in public roles.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I'd like to think so, but I look at
the evidence and I say no. I think there is
still a massive amount of completely unnecessary commentary on things
that have nothing to do with the job in hand,
nothing to do with it at all. And all you
have to do is flip the picture and go, Are
(05:54):
the men being asked about that? Are they being asked
about their hair, about their clothes, about their marriages, about
their children, about their mental health? About them? Are addictions
of you know that they're not and they can and
do mess up quite spectacularly on the daily, extraordinary things
(06:17):
that women would be crucified for. And it's like there's
some kind of get out of jail free card which
is that they're men. And yeah, so while I would
like to think it was equal opportunity to stuff up.
I think we all know that it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Have you talked to Helen Clark? Does she know that
this play is happening.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yes, she does know that this play is happening, and
yes I have talked to her. But I held off
until very late in the process. I held off until
I'd actually completed the writing of the script because I
wanted I wanted to keep my approach pure, because I
(07:04):
knew that it wasn't a document, it wasn't simply a
fact finding mission. I felt like I'd already done the
fact finding mission part of the process in doing all
my background reading. And I did think if, in the
process of speaking with Helen I'm thinking that there are
factual errors in what I've done, of course I'll change them.
(07:27):
I'm not going to stick to my guns in the
face of superior evidence. But neither do I have an
obligation to reflect her own take on her journey.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
How did she take it? I mean it must be
it must be quite daunting for her to know that
there is a clay thing written about her.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think so. I mean, I can if I put
myself in those shoes, I think, holy smoke, I think
I would take a very standing, quite a long way
back approach to it. I think that's what Hellan was doing,
certainly initially that she was aware of it, she knew
(08:11):
it was happening, but never attempted to have any kind
of editorial control. And she's smart, you know, she's smart
in very many ways. But she's also smart about you know,
what art is, what theater is. She will know that
it's a take, it's not definitive, it's not the last word,
(08:33):
it's not an Encyclopedia entry. It is a piece of theater.
And I think possibly of all of our former prime ministers,
she would have a better understanding of that than anyone.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm sure she'll be very pleased at Jennifer Woodland is
playing her as the adult Helen. I can't wait to
see her in this role. You've made a bit of
a habit of basing your work around real life's people
and stories. Is there a particular draw for you to that?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Often it's not something that I set out to do, Like,
I'll never say, Okay, now I'm casting around for another
real life story that I might tell. What hooks you
in a story?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Is.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Oh, it's a bit of a mystery, and it's one
that I never want to probe too closely. But it
has to be that there are questions that you want
to answer. It feels substantial to you. It feels like
something you might spend several years of your life on
because often that's what it turns out to be. And
maybe two. As I crack on that, just the shape
(09:40):
of a life becomes increasingly fascinating. Almost any life. I think,
if you dug into this, where do you find the
turning points, Where do you find the decisive moments, Where
do you find the formative experiences? What is it that
makes this person who they are? And where are the
(10:01):
moments where it might have gone differently, you know, the
sliding door moments. Those were very Those questions were uppermost
in my mind on Pike River a lot of the
time because with Anna Osborne and Sonya Rockhouse, the two
real life heroines of the Pike River Story as it
was told in the film, they would constantly say, we're
(10:25):
just ordinary people. We just did what anyone would have done.
But from a dramatist's perspective, that's so not true. They
did what very few people would have done.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Last year was a biguere for you, As you said,
Pike River, the screenplay that you wrote, that the film
was released, this play was announced, you won the Catherine
Mansfield Ment on Fellowship. Is this the nature of being
in the arts? It's sort of all or nothing at times?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Very much so. It's not a smooth ride. It's incredibly unpredictable,
and it's incredibly uncertaindictuously. So at any given time, there
are so many things you don't know about how your
year is going to unfold. You don't necessarily know where
you're going to be living, You don't know how much
money you're going to have. You don't know which of
(11:19):
the six possible projects that you've got on the go
is going to move forward and which ones are going
to fall over. And there've been years when they all
fall over and nobody knows about those ones because there's
nothing to tell. But yeah, some days you wake up
and you think, what a mug's game? So you're right,
last year was a very good year, But they're not
(11:41):
all like that.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Is writing where you're most happy you do everything?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But is writing where you kind.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Of I do love it? It feels like a very
natural place for me to be. I also love directing,
and the combo of writing and then directing, that's a
great one, that's deeply satisfying. Said I think writing is
a very natural place for me to be, and when
(12:11):
it's directing, I think, Okay, you've got to get up
on your hind legs for this. You know, you've got
to summon your energy, you've got to crank up your
metabolic rate. You've got to go into action mode and
contemplation mode and swimming around in the unknown mode is
a more natural fit for me. But I can do action,
(12:32):
and when you do it, it's very stimulating. You know.
When you do it, I go oh, I want more
of that, and then I sink back into my happy place.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And you'll be sinking back into some contemplation. I imagine when
you head to the south of France, when do you
take up that fellowship.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I'm leaving New Zealand on the thirtieth of April.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Fantastic, just in time for winter, skipping off almost.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yes, skipping the New Zealand winter and arriving in the
French spring.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And what is the plan for your time there?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Well, I'm working on another stage where it's a stage
adaptation of recent New Zealand book, very powerful and fascinating book.
I'm keeping the lid on my pot pretty much. They're
not letting her escape. But you know, having gone back
into the world of stage with Helen Klass after spending
(13:25):
a long time in the world of film and television,
I'm really alive to the possibilities of stage of live performance,
particularly now in this You know, we spend so much
of our life on screens, and I love the on
screen entertainment as much as anybody else. But there is
a particular charge that only comes from a bunch of
(13:48):
people sitting in a room and the lights go down
and the lights come up on the special arena that
is the stage, and that thrill of what's going to happen,
whatever it is, it's going to unfold in front of me,
and a real life human is going to do it
in front of me. That that charge new in love
with that all over again.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That is brilliant. And look just really quickly Helen Clark's
six outfits. Did you know which ones they'd be? Did
you have them in the back of your mind?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
That that was part of the fun having a massed
all the information and then when I did that bit
of going Okay, what sticks, what are the key scenes?
What am I feeling? And then I put on the
glasses of the clothes and thought, okay, not talking now
about key moments, but thinking key outfits. What outfits am
(14:37):
I seeing? Ah, they almost chose themselves. There we go,
and then I knew it was game on. I love it.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Thank you so much. Helen Clark in Six Outfits is
on at Auckland's ASB Waterfront Theater from April seventh to
the twenty sixth. The tickets and more information head to
ATC dot co dot z. Fiona, thank you so much
for coming in love you to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
For more from the Sunday session with Franchess Rodkin. Listen
live to News Talks A B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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