June 27, 2026 • 10 mins
This week on the Sunday Panel, Director at Capital Ben Thomas and host of The Front Page podcast Chelsea Daniels joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Stuff's owner raised concerns over what big tech means for the future of our media. Are politicians petty about the media and is that an issue? Do they need to better support the media? Why aren't they making more moves to regulate things?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
It is time for the panel and this morning I'm
joined by Director at Capital Ben Thomas. Good morning, Ben,
a modernor, and I'm also joined by Chelsea Daniels, host
of the front Page podcast. Hi, Chelsea, morning, wonder if
we could talk about the kickoff by talking about stuff.
CEO had a long interview on their website yesterday just
(00:34):
talking about the media and politicians and how they're all
kind of getting along and various other things. Shared some
interesting interactions that she'd had from politicians, and her overwhelming
thought was that they're just becoming a lot thinner skinned
than they used to be. But I'm wondering if you
could talk to that. Do you think that's the case?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, Look, I certainly think that that's the case. We've
seen it this term, and I think increasingly in the
last probably year year and a half, and I think
really ramped up this year. We've seen the government be
much more sort of confrontational with the media. And that's
not just you know, the you know, these kind of
(01:18):
behind the scenes chats like I think Shanaide was talking
about but you know, I think more in terms of
trying to influence the coverage very osartly. We're seeing, for instance,
the Prime Minister in his interviews now is basically just
going in and saying, well, whenever he's asked a question,
why don't you ask the opposition that, you know, why
(01:38):
don't you, as the media ask the opposition that We've
got people like Shane Jones and Winston Peters who will
sort of say, don't ask me that question. You shouldn't
be you know, you should be very careful before asking
me that question. And it comes against this backdrop of
these comments about you know, r n Z funding and
staff members and you know, John Key always used to
(02:01):
tell tell us when I worked as a press secretary
in his government, you know, our opposition is the media,
and by that he meant, you know, the media of
the opposition that self was underperforming and not really probing
the people who were, you know, really contesting the ideas
of the government instead of holding the feet to the
fire and the people that we had to sort of
(02:21):
deal with and seat of you come to the arguments
of where the media, but they seem to be taking
in a very literal sense dis government right now and
really just sort of being very combative and trying to
sort of jaw bone the media. And do I think
you know what they would see is more positive coverage.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think I think everything you've said there we've all seen,
haven't we, Chelsea. But then I watched Scrutiny Week, and
my goodness, they go at each other. They're sure not
afraid to be confrontational towards each other either.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, you do see kind of a streak of pettiness
more more often now, don't you. It's kind of very
like I'm taking my ball that I'm going home energy.
So there's a major difference between calling out a bad
store and going on a long term grudge campaign. I
suppose the irony is they still need the media when
it suits them, when they've got a shiny announcement or
like a nice picture they want taken. It's just that
(03:18):
awkward question over whether they'd rather outsource that to social media.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Rants and things like that.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
You get in this cycle where politicians complain about biased
coverage and their supporters stop trusting anything that doesn't flatter their.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Side of the story. And that might feel good in
the moment, but.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
It does leave us all with kind of this less
shared reality of what we're going through, and I think
that's really dangerous.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I mean, Chelsea, do you have if I have problems
getting politicians on the front page?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, I don't, And I mean I've been called everything
from you know, a leftist commie to a right far
right extremist online. So I mean and that I take
that as me doing my job well because I remain unbiased,
and I think that politicians really find the front page
is kind of a safe space.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
It's a different format as well, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
You've got twenty minutes to really go through the discussion.
It's when you've got those tiny clips and those journals
that are out for kind of gotcha moments that you
get a real push back from.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I mean, being social media plays a role in the
fact that it is a great way for people to
get their information out there. Right, we see politicians often
focusing on their own social media channels as opposed to
wanting to speak directly with the media and the criticism
there as well. They're just avoiding robust debate and discussion,
(04:42):
and that might be the case, but then they're also
finding a very effective way to communicate with people.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah, and look at varies. You know, there will be
times when all they're doing is sort of clipping up
controversy confrontation. So sort of the opposite of the gotcha moment,
or the same as the gotcha moment. But on the politicians.
Chelsea was talking about New Zealand first of your very
good at that. You know, you will see sometimes these
(05:09):
interviews where Winston Peters, I think, you know, there are
some interviews with our and Z where he'll just come
out swinging, you know, he won't engage with the interview
at all, and we'll just start sort of insulting the
interviewer and then that immediately gets clipped up. And honestly,
the coverage is incredible. They'll get, you know, sort of
five thousand shares on Facebook, twenty thousand likes. I mean,
those are those are those are non trivial numbers for
(05:31):
a party that's looking at five percent of the vote.
Now where I think National and Labor can get into
trouble if they tried this is they are still going
for those centrist voters you know, who are yeah and
well and who are more likely to watch TV and
Z and will not see the Prime Minister if he
(05:53):
stops doing his you know, Monday morning interview with Obra
Brian or similar. And so I think politicians feel in bold,
and particularly the major parties, because the media is not
as strong as it used to be. It doesn't have
that kind of monopoly. You know, it never had a
monopoly because of course there's competing outlets. But you know,
they feel more sort of emboldened, I think, to take
(06:14):
on individual outlets. But of course the issue is that
if you take on too many individual outlets, you're taking
on age. You know, you're taking on and try to
say threatening to withdraw from actually a big chunk of
the electorate which you know could come home, you know,
chickens could come home to rest in an election year
that's looking very tight, when you would think you would
be scrapping for every center voter you could as a
(06:36):
major party.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Chelsea wondering if we could talk about the Opportunity Party.
We've seen them polling at four point six percent this
week in a couple of polls. Now we're still a
long way out from the elections. It doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
I think it means something.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I think the trajectory means something in these If you
look at the Opportunity Party's polling numbers, they've constantly gone
up and arm and I think that really.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
I mean, is it because of their policies, Probably not.
Is it because people are bored of politics? Probably? Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
They want someone to come in and shake it up,
and you know, see something a little bit different.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
And what they're saying out there to vote is is fair.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Look, we're going to be working with anybody, anybody.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
Who you know, gets into politics.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
We're open minded. We come to the table with policies
that are evidence based driven. In terms of their policies,
though I spoke to their leader qle Wong this week
actually in regards to the polling numbers and how.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
To talk through the policies, they do.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Tend to lean a little bit more left. And you
had Christopher Luxen completely, you know, dismissing them when he
was asked about them. He said, I haven't really thought
about them at all. All of their policies look Labor
Greens aligned, and honestly, I can't fault him on that,
but I can fault him of being.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Too dismissive of them.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I think that would be a major opportunity missed for them, Ben.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
What does it take to turn four point six percent
into five percent an election?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Part of part of what it will take more attention,
you know, continuing to stay in the narrative, continuing to
stay as part of the discussion. And you know they
are well placed to do that. You know, good Poland
builds its own momentum. Four point six percent creates this
sort of storyline of can they get into Parliament, which
is you know, an interesting thread in an election which
(08:26):
is otherwise a bit of a rerun of last year
with last time with Christmas Chris, which didn't do huge
numbers at the box office for the major And I
think the other factor is that Kila is you know,
by far the most attractive to the electorate leader the
top has had. You know they have and you know,
(08:50):
individually I like all of them, but previously they've been
led by a succession of slightly sort of off putting
smart rhythm now middle aged men economists, you know who
sounds like they're kind of delivering a bit of a little
lecture to you, you know, after you've said something dumb
about the ocr or something. Whereas she's very personable, very positive,
(09:15):
you know, look there's nothing new about the sort of
framing of saying, oh, we're not left or right, we
just want to do what works, what's best for New Zealand.
You know, it's a story as old as time, and
it's not one that it matches up with their policies,
which are actually quite radical in a lot of respects,
but it is an attractive, you know, argument to a
(09:35):
lot of the electorate, particularly when it is so polarized
right now and so negative. In the past, you've at
least had like, you know, maybe the opposition might be
presenting a positive narrative or the government might be presenting
a positive narrative. Right now, it's very negative. The government
probably the only person who's tried to be positive and
the past term of government was Christopher Luxen, and it
(09:57):
didn't really work out for him because it didn't match
up with what people were feeling on the ground and
was seeing to sort of strike a bit of a
discordant tone with how the economy was going. But in
terms of just this, you know, Labor versus National Greens
versus New Zealand. First, ye know, even the Greens constantly
sort of angry now and top has the opportunity or
the opportunity party has the opportunity to actually seem like,
(10:20):
you know, we're positive, we want to get on with things.
We actually see you know, good things happening, and we're
not going to get into all of this petty points scoring.
And it's quite feasible that there's five percent is the
electorate that will go for that.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I think you summed it up really nicely there, Ben,
Thank you so much for your time, both of you today.
That was Chelsea Daniels and Ben Thomas there on the panel.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
It is time for the panel and this morning I'm
joined by Director at Capital Ben Thomas. Good morning, Ben,
a modernor, and I'm also joined by Chelsea Daniels, host
of the front Page podcast. Hi, Chelsea, morning, wonder if
we could talk about the kickoff by talking about stuff.
CEO had a long interview on their website yesterday just
(00:34):
talking about the media and politicians and how they're all
kind of getting along and various other things. Shared some
interesting interactions that she'd had from politicians, and her overwhelming
thought was that they're just becoming a lot thinner skinned
than they used to be. But I'm wondering if you
could talk to that. Do you think that's the case?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, Look, I certainly think that that's the case. We've
seen it this term, and I think increasingly in the
last probably year year and a half, and I think
really ramped up this year. We've seen the government be
much more sort of confrontational with the media. And that's
not just you know, the you know, these kind of
(01:18):
behind the scenes chats like I think Shanaide was talking
about but you know, I think more in terms of
trying to influence the coverage very osartly. We're seeing, for instance,
the Prime Minister in his interviews now is basically just
going in and saying, well, whenever he's asked a question,
why don't you ask the opposition that, you know, why
(01:38):
don't you, as the media ask the opposition that We've
got people like Shane Jones and Winston Peters who will
sort of say, don't ask me that question. You shouldn't
be you know, you should be very careful before asking
me that question. And it comes against this backdrop of
these comments about you know, r n Z funding and
staff members and you know, John Key always used to
(02:01):
tell tell us when I worked as a press secretary
in his government, you know, our opposition is the media,
and by that he meant, you know, the media of
the opposition that self was underperforming and not really probing
the people who were, you know, really contesting the ideas
of the government instead of holding the feet to the
fire and the people that we had to sort of
(02:21):
deal with and seat of you come to the arguments
of where the media, but they seem to be taking
in a very literal sense dis government right now and
really just sort of being very combative and trying to
sort of jaw bone the media. And do I think
you know what they would see is more positive coverage.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think I think everything you've said there we've all seen,
haven't we, Chelsea. But then I watched Scrutiny Week, and
my goodness, they go at each other. They're sure not
afraid to be confrontational towards each other either.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, you do see kind of a streak of pettiness
more more often now, don't you. It's kind of very
like I'm taking my ball that I'm going home energy.
So there's a major difference between calling out a bad
store and going on a long term grudge campaign. I
suppose the irony is they still need the media when
it suits them, when they've got a shiny announcement or
like a nice picture they want taken. It's just that
(03:18):
awkward question over whether they'd rather outsource that to social media.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Rants and things like that.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
You get in this cycle where politicians complain about biased
coverage and their supporters stop trusting anything that doesn't flatter their.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Side of the story. And that might feel good in
the moment, but.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
It does leave us all with kind of this less
shared reality of what we're going through, and I think
that's really dangerous.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I mean, Chelsea, do you have if I have problems
getting politicians on the front page?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, I don't, And I mean I've been called everything
from you know, a leftist commie to a right far
right extremist online. So I mean and that I take
that as me doing my job well because I remain unbiased,
and I think that politicians really find the front page
is kind of a safe space.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
It's a different format as well, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
You've got twenty minutes to really go through the discussion.
It's when you've got those tiny clips and those journals
that are out for kind of gotcha moments that you
get a real push back from.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I mean, being social media plays a role in the
fact that it is a great way for people to
get their information out there. Right, we see politicians often
focusing on their own social media channels as opposed to
wanting to speak directly with the media and the criticism
there as well. They're just avoiding robust debate and discussion,
(04:42):
and that might be the case, but then they're also
finding a very effective way to communicate with people.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah, and look at varies. You know, there will be
times when all they're doing is sort of clipping up
controversy confrontation. So sort of the opposite of the gotcha moment,
or the same as the gotcha moment. But on the politicians.
Chelsea was talking about New Zealand first of your very
good at that. You know, you will see sometimes these
(05:09):
interviews where Winston Peters, I think, you know, there are
some interviews with our and Z where he'll just come
out swinging, you know, he won't engage with the interview
at all, and we'll just start sort of insulting the
interviewer and then that immediately gets clipped up. And honestly,
the coverage is incredible. They'll get, you know, sort of
five thousand shares on Facebook, twenty thousand likes. I mean,
those are those are those are non trivial numbers for
(05:31):
a party that's looking at five percent of the vote.
Now where I think National and Labor can get into
trouble if they tried this is they are still going
for those centrist voters you know, who are yeah and
well and who are more likely to watch TV and
Z and will not see the Prime Minister if he
(05:53):
stops doing his you know, Monday morning interview with Obra
Brian or similar. And so I think politicians feel in bold,
and particularly the major parties, because the media is not
as strong as it used to be. It doesn't have
that kind of monopoly. You know, it never had a
monopoly because of course there's competing outlets. But you know,
they feel more sort of emboldened, I think, to take
(06:14):
on individual outlets. But of course the issue is that
if you take on too many individual outlets, you're taking
on age. You know, you're taking on and try to
say threatening to withdraw from actually a big chunk of
the electorate which you know could come home, you know,
chickens could come home to rest in an election year
that's looking very tight, when you would think you would
be scrapping for every center voter you could as a
(06:36):
major party.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Chelsea wondering if we could talk about the Opportunity Party.
We've seen them polling at four point six percent this
week in a couple of polls. Now we're still a
long way out from the elections. It doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
I think it means something.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I think the trajectory means something in these If you
look at the Opportunity Party's polling numbers, they've constantly gone
up and arm and I think that really.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
I mean, is it because of their policies, Probably not.
Is it because people are bored of politics? Probably? Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
They want someone to come in and shake it up,
and you know, see something a little bit different.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
And what they're saying out there to vote is is fair.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Look, we're going to be working with anybody, anybody.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
Who you know, gets into politics.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
We're open minded. We come to the table with policies
that are evidence based driven. In terms of their policies,
though I spoke to their leader qle Wong this week
actually in regards to the polling numbers and how.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
To talk through the policies, they do.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Tend to lean a little bit more left. And you
had Christopher Luxen completely, you know, dismissing them when he
was asked about them. He said, I haven't really thought
about them at all. All of their policies look Labor
Greens aligned, and honestly, I can't fault him on that,
but I can fault him of being.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Too dismissive of them.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I think that would be a major opportunity missed for them, Ben.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
What does it take to turn four point six percent
into five percent an election?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Part of part of what it will take more attention,
you know, continuing to stay in the narrative, continuing to
stay as part of the discussion. And you know they
are well placed to do that. You know, good Poland
builds its own momentum. Four point six percent creates this
sort of storyline of can they get into Parliament, which
is you know, an interesting thread in an election which
(08:26):
is otherwise a bit of a rerun of last year
with last time with Christmas Chris, which didn't do huge
numbers at the box office for the major And I
think the other factor is that Kila is you know,
by far the most attractive to the electorate leader the
top has had. You know they have and you know,
(08:50):
individually I like all of them, but previously they've been
led by a succession of slightly sort of off putting
smart rhythm now middle aged men economists, you know who
sounds like they're kind of delivering a bit of a little
lecture to you, you know, after you've said something dumb
about the ocr or something. Whereas she's very personable, very positive,
(09:15):
you know, look there's nothing new about the sort of
framing of saying, oh, we're not left or right, we
just want to do what works, what's best for New Zealand.
You know, it's a story as old as time, and
it's not one that it matches up with their policies,
which are actually quite radical in a lot of respects,
but it is an attractive, you know, argument to a
(09:35):
lot of the electorate, particularly when it is so polarized
right now and so negative. In the past, you've at
least had like, you know, maybe the opposition might be
presenting a positive narrative or the government might be presenting
a positive narrative. Right now, it's very negative. The government
probably the only person who's tried to be positive and
the past term of government was Christopher Luxen, and it
(09:57):
didn't really work out for him because it didn't match
up with what people were feeling on the ground and
was seeing to sort of strike a bit of a
discordant tone with how the economy was going. But in
terms of just this, you know, Labor versus National Greens
versus New Zealand. First, ye know, even the Greens constantly
sort of angry now and top has the opportunity or
the opportunity party has the opportunity to actually seem like,
(10:20):
you know, we're positive, we want to get on with things.
We actually see you know, good things happening, and we're
not going to get into all of this petty points scoring.
And it's quite feasible that there's five percent is the
electorate that will go for that.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I think you summed it up really nicely there, Ben,
Thank you so much for your time, both of you today.
That was Chelsea Daniels and Ben Thomas there on the panel.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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