This week on the Sunday Panel, director at Capital Ben Thomas and Newstalk ZB Wellington mornings host Nick Mills joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The Government has unveiled their new system designed to replace NCEA. Do we think parents and students are getting enough clarity around the curriculum and how assessments are going to go? What does this mean for the humanities? Do we think the Government's taking the right approach here?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
D be right.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It is time for the panel and I'm joined by
Director at Capital Ben Thomas.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Good morning, Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I'm also joined by News Talks b Wellington Morning's host
Nick Mills.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
How are you, Nick, I'm fantastic, very good.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, very good.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Your photo looks amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Thank you very much. Yeah. I told them to do
as much work on it as they liked, and I
think they did. That's very I bet you said that
to all the News Talks.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
You're the only person it's true.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Oh you're a darling. Thank you very much. If anyone
wonder what we're talking about, we've had all our marketing
photos updated. I was quite happy to stick with the
five year old once, but apparently you're supposed to update
these things. Anyway, let's move on. I spoke to Eric Stanford,
of course Education Minister this morning. We're talking about NCA. Nick.
Is the government making you know, making learning consistent and
(01:05):
you know, mandating subjects and things for schools? Is this
the right approach?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
You know what. I've been a huge, huge fan of
Erica Stanford up until I watched Q and A this morning,
and I kind of came a light way from that
because it's my favorite program of the work. And I
came away from that, and I watched it twice, and
there was two things that really scared the living daylight.
I mean, one is about ten thousand students leave school
yearly without a single qualification. Secondly, that sixteen percent of
(01:31):
war school leavers leave without the NCA level one and
twenty eight percent of marry. Now, if those figures don't
scare you, they should scare you. And I, you know,
I'm starting to wonder whether it's all intention and no results.
And I know those are old figures, and don't next
and say they're old figures. But she wouldn't guarantee that
(01:52):
the figures would change this year.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
No, and I don't think they will.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I think I'm not sure that this system is going
to cater to those who are already struggling.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
No, that's right. And look, I think she said before,
and I think she's right that. You know, that's that's
a longer term problem that starts much earlier. You know,
you probably won't see significant changes on that until the
sort of cohorts who are younger now and hopefully getting
more of a focus on actually reading and writing and
getting the tools to even be able to sort of
(02:26):
get up to you know what my day was called
fifth form and hours you know, yet ten I think,
you know, that's when we'll hopefully start seeing those results.
And you know, I guess the old adage, you know,
the best time to start would have been ten years ago,
and the second best time is now. Uh. You know,
I think that school leather issue is one that you
(02:49):
know where there you know, is still potentially an issue
in that you know, currently. The one benefit I guess
it in CEA was that for those students who were
really struggling, who didn't have sort of an academic path ahead,
you know, they could kind of put together some sort
(03:09):
of illustration of things that they could do, you know,
for future employers, because it is it is really hard,
you know, both to even get a sort of very
very basic entry level job as a school level lever,
and also think the effect on sort of the demoralization
you know, of the students if they leave without sort
(03:29):
of kind of any anything in the hand, you know,
even a sort of slightly symbolic, slightly boarded down kind
of you know, pseudo qualification. It's probably kind of keeping
them arale up and giving them a little bit on course.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And this is the problem, isn't it, Nick, Because you
are taking the ability for schools to self govern and
do what's best for their school and their students and
creating this one system. And I understand. I mean, it's
going to be much easier to measure how well we're
doing when we have this sort of rigid sort of
system across all the schools. But we are taking that away,
and I think that comes back to what you were saying,
it's going to meet, it's going to disadvantage.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
And by the way, Ben, it's a year eleven. It's
the fifth form, which was the old school sert And
you know what I mean, those numbers don't scare you.
Just think of it like this, Eden Park are packed
Eden Park. That's four years of people leaving us College
without a single bit of education. Now that's not enabling
them to go and get a builders apprenticeship and electricians apprenticeship.
(04:31):
You've going to have some sort of qualifiation qualifications to
pass the theory exams, and that I think it's more
urgent than what most people are thinking. And I have
no problems with Erica's plan to examine everyone at a
young age and give them tests and give them results
and get all that stuff. I have no issue with that.
But if it doesn't change anything, where do we look
(04:52):
then well, I think.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
The other problem we have, too, Ben is that, and
I think you've been really realistic and saying, actually, we're
not going to see the real benefit of this until
sort of a generation kind of goes through the system.
But the problem is that in a couple of years
time is a cohort, a little bunch of guinea pigs
who are going to have to deal with the bar
that's been raised and you know, reach higher levels of
(05:14):
literacy and numeracy. And actually, I think we owe it
to them to try and make sure that we're helping
them through that, all of them through it the best
that we can. And I'm not entirely sure that we're
going to have the resources. I'm not entirely sure we're
going to have enough science rooms. I'm not sure we're
going to have enough mass teachers and you know, to
be able to achieve that in the looking short term.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, look one hundred percent, but these issues aren't aren't new.
You know, my first job out of TOY was to
the Employers and Manufacturers Association, And even back then, the
number one complaint, you know, more concern about the employment
market was basically literacy, you know, basic literacy. Tempercent of
the workforce couldn't read well enough to understand safety safety
(05:57):
warnings or labels on machinery or in the workplace. So
you know that this is a very long standing problem. Look,
I think but by and large, I think it should
improve the equality of education. Yes, at high schools, but
there is a concern.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
About you know, really at that kind of tail end,
does it look exciting to go to school, Nick, when
you've been told you're going to do mathson and you're
going to have to do science in year eleven, and
then you've got two topics that you're allowed to choose,
does that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Kind of get you all excited if you're a student.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
You know, this is where education has gone wrong for
the last five decades, is it's not actually teaching people
what people want to learn, you know, it's teaching them
what a book should teach them. And you know, if
they could find young enough.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
What people are really good at.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
And actually enhance that, then society will be better. If
you're an eight or nine year old that wants to
be a doctor, why God, you should get every resources
to be able to make that dream come true. If
you want to be an airline pilot, if you want
to be a builder, if you want to be whatever
you want, We've got to start education really young enough
to actually give them the dream or the chance for
(07:05):
that dream. That's to me, it's really really simplistic. Am
I crazy?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Is he crazy?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I think? I think I think that we might end
up with a few too many sort of teachers of
you know, the future all captain class or but you know,
I think they're probably a bit more of a general basis,
probably useful sort of at the early stage. But you know,
I think most you know, Nikkid, probably agree. You know,
(07:31):
you don't really know that ninety five percent of jobs
exist until school.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
No thanks to all what the reality of actually having
you know, working it actually is. But I mean there
is something to that, Nick, I completely agree with you.
I mean, I think we all know we go to
school and there's stuff we have to learn that we
don't really want to learn, but we have to learn it.
But when a child is fully engaged because they're interested
in the topic and they've got or there might be
good at it, and that that's what we want to
That's what keeps learning. That's what keeps them learning, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
The simplistic way of my idea is, if you want
to drive a car, you need to pass the written exam.
You know what I mean? Now I work that out.
It's the only exact I've ever passed in my life
was my driver's license. Why because I wanted it?
Speaker 5 (08:12):
So Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Very quickly. Aig. I'm just going to say. The final
thing I'm going to say on the education thing is
I think that they needed to complete at least the
first draft of the curriculum and get some feedback on
it before they started structuring the design of the qualification.
I think they've done this the wrong way round. I
think with an election coming up, they're trying to look,
they're trying to release information, look how you know much,
(08:37):
how much it's progressing, and where they're at. But in
a way I think they've gone They've done it the
wrong way round. They've created a qualification before they've even
created a curriculum, and I think that's what might potentially
get them a little bit of problem. But Ben Thomas,
Nick Mills, thank you both very much for your time
this morning. Appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
D be right.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It is time for the panel and I'm joined by
Director at Capital Ben Thomas.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Good morning, Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I'm also joined by News Talks b Wellington Morning's host
Nick Mills.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
How are you, Nick, I'm fantastic, very good.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, very good.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Your photo looks amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Thank you very much. Yeah. I told them to do
as much work on it as they liked, and I
think they did. That's very I bet you said that
to all the News Talks.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
You're the only person it's true.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Oh you're a darling. Thank you very much. If anyone
wonder what we're talking about, we've had all our marketing
photos updated. I was quite happy to stick with the
five year old once, but apparently you're supposed to update
these things. Anyway, let's move on. I spoke to Eric Stanford,
of course Education Minister this morning. We're talking about NCA. Nick.
Is the government making you know, making learning consistent and
(01:05):
you know, mandating subjects and things for schools? Is this
the right approach?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
You know what. I've been a huge, huge fan of
Erica Stanford up until I watched Q and A this morning,
and I kind of came a light way from that
because it's my favorite program of the work. And I
came away from that, and I watched it twice, and
there was two things that really scared the living daylight.
I mean, one is about ten thousand students leave school
yearly without a single qualification. Secondly, that sixteen percent of
(01:31):
war school leavers leave without the NCA level one and
twenty eight percent of marry. Now, if those figures don't
scare you, they should scare you. And I, you know,
I'm starting to wonder whether it's all intention and no results.
And I know those are old figures, and don't next
and say they're old figures. But she wouldn't guarantee that
(01:52):
the figures would change this year.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
No, and I don't think they will.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I think I'm not sure that this system is going
to cater to those who are already struggling.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
No, that's right. And look, I think she said before,
and I think she's right that. You know, that's that's
a longer term problem that starts much earlier. You know,
you probably won't see significant changes on that until the
sort of cohorts who are younger now and hopefully getting
more of a focus on actually reading and writing and
getting the tools to even be able to sort of
(02:26):
get up to you know what my day was called
fifth form and hours you know, yet ten I think,
you know, that's when we'll hopefully start seeing those results.
And you know, I guess the old adage, you know,
the best time to start would have been ten years ago,
and the second best time is now. Uh. You know,
I think that school leather issue is one that you
(02:49):
know where there you know, is still potentially an issue
in that you know, currently. The one benefit I guess
it in CEA was that for those students who were
really struggling, who didn't have sort of an academic path ahead,
you know, they could kind of put together some sort
(03:09):
of illustration of things that they could do, you know,
for future employers, because it is it is really hard,
you know, both to even get a sort of very
very basic entry level job as a school level lever,
and also think the effect on sort of the demoralization
you know, of the students if they leave without sort
(03:29):
of kind of any anything in the hand, you know,
even a sort of slightly symbolic, slightly boarded down kind
of you know, pseudo qualification. It's probably kind of keeping
them arale up and giving them a little bit on course.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And this is the problem, isn't it, Nick, Because you
are taking the ability for schools to self govern and
do what's best for their school and their students and
creating this one system. And I understand. I mean, it's
going to be much easier to measure how well we're
doing when we have this sort of rigid sort of
system across all the schools. But we are taking that away,
and I think that comes back to what you were saying,
it's going to meet, it's going to disadvantage.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
And by the way, Ben, it's a year eleven. It's
the fifth form, which was the old school sert And
you know what I mean, those numbers don't scare you.
Just think of it like this, Eden Park are packed
Eden Park. That's four years of people leaving us College
without a single bit of education. Now that's not enabling
them to go and get a builders apprenticeship and electricians apprenticeship.
(04:31):
You've going to have some sort of qualifiation qualifications to
pass the theory exams, and that I think it's more
urgent than what most people are thinking. And I have
no problems with Erica's plan to examine everyone at a
young age and give them tests and give them results
and get all that stuff. I have no issue with that.
But if it doesn't change anything, where do we look
(04:52):
then well, I think.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
The other problem we have, too, Ben is that, and
I think you've been really realistic and saying, actually, we're
not going to see the real benefit of this until
sort of a generation kind of goes through the system.
But the problem is that in a couple of years
time is a cohort, a little bunch of guinea pigs
who are going to have to deal with the bar
that's been raised and you know, reach higher levels of
(05:14):
literacy and numeracy. And actually, I think we owe it
to them to try and make sure that we're helping
them through that, all of them through it the best
that we can. And I'm not entirely sure that we're
going to have the resources. I'm not entirely sure we're
going to have enough science rooms. I'm not sure we're
going to have enough mass teachers and you know, to
be able to achieve that in the looking short term.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, look one hundred percent, but these issues aren't aren't new.
You know, my first job out of TOY was to
the Employers and Manufacturers Association, And even back then, the
number one complaint, you know, more concern about the employment
market was basically literacy, you know, basic literacy. Tempercent of
the workforce couldn't read well enough to understand safety safety
(05:57):
warnings or labels on machinery or in the workplace. So
you know that this is a very long standing problem. Look,
I think but by and large, I think it should
improve the equality of education. Yes, at high schools, but
there is a concern.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
About you know, really at that kind of tail end,
does it look exciting to go to school, Nick, when
you've been told you're going to do mathson and you're
going to have to do science in year eleven, and
then you've got two topics that you're allowed to choose,
does that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Kind of get you all excited if you're a student.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
You know, this is where education has gone wrong for
the last five decades, is it's not actually teaching people
what people want to learn, you know, it's teaching them
what a book should teach them. And you know, if
they could find young enough.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
What people are really good at.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
And actually enhance that, then society will be better. If
you're an eight or nine year old that wants to
be a doctor, why God, you should get every resources
to be able to make that dream come true. If
you want to be an airline pilot, if you want
to be a builder, if you want to be whatever
you want, We've got to start education really young enough
to actually give them the dream or the chance for
(07:05):
that dream. That's to me, it's really really simplistic. Am
I crazy?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Is he crazy?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I think? I think I think that we might end
up with a few too many sort of teachers of
you know, the future all captain class or but you know,
I think they're probably a bit more of a general basis,
probably useful sort of at the early stage. But you know,
I think most you know, Nikkid, probably agree. You know,
(07:31):
you don't really know that ninety five percent of jobs
exist until school.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
No thanks to all what the reality of actually having
you know, working it actually is. But I mean there
is something to that, Nick, I completely agree with you.
I mean, I think we all know we go to
school and there's stuff we have to learn that we
don't really want to learn, but we have to learn it.
But when a child is fully engaged because they're interested
in the topic and they've got or there might be
good at it, and that that's what we want to
That's what keeps learning. That's what keeps them learning, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
The simplistic way of my idea is, if you want
to drive a car, you need to pass the written exam.
You know what I mean? Now I work that out.
It's the only exact I've ever passed in my life
was my driver's license. Why because I wanted it?
Speaker 5 (08:12):
So Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Very quickly. Aig. I'm just going to say. The final
thing I'm going to say on the education thing is
I think that they needed to complete at least the
first draft of the curriculum and get some feedback on
it before they started structuring the design of the qualification.
I think they've done this the wrong way round. I
think with an election coming up, they're trying to look,
they're trying to release information, look how you know much,
(08:37):
how much it's progressing, and where they're at. But in
a way I think they've gone They've done it the
wrong way round. They've created a qualification before they've even
created a curriculum, and I think that's what might potentially
get them a little bit of problem. But Ben Thomas,
Nick Mills, thank you both very much for your time
this morning. Appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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