May 9, 2026 • 10 mins
This week on the Sunday Panel, Director at 818, Chris Henry and journalist and editor, Jo McCarroll, joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The Government has confirmed fees-free uni is over and done ahead of the Budget. What kind of impact will this have? Would it be better to find other ways to support young people? Are we worried it will be another factor that will drive young talent from New Zealand? Do we think interest-free student loans are on their way out?
The Government's given councils three months to put forward merger proposals, or it will force them to join up under its own process. Do we think this is enough time? What will this mean for jobs?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News TALKS'B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And it is time for our panel, and I'm joined
by director at eight one eight Chris Henry. Good morning Chris,
and happy mother's dad. Oh, thank you very much. And
Joe McCarroll, journalist and editor, joins us as well.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi Joe, Oh Kayona Francisca and to Chris and happy
mother's stay, to all the mums, especially mine.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
There we go. Yes, if you've missed your moment, here's
your chance. Right, let's talk about the university Feasts Free scheme.
It's been canceled. This was sort of an announcement which
probably was not planned on Friday evening because of course
we're not supposed to talk about the budget before the budget.
But Winston just thought he'd let this slip out. If
(00:51):
you're going to remove theease free from tertiary study, should
you just remove it from everything across the board and
not try and pick and choose industries to apply it to?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Joe, we need more detail. We don't it's fair, but
we need more of this detail of Oh no, we're
going to apply it in a way that makes more
of a difference, and I don't see how just picking
and choosing where you gave that fees free leg up
is going to help. But I mean, I think this
would be a real gut punch if you were studying now.
(01:23):
But I would also say I'm not convinced that this
was a hand up that actually helped people who would
not otherwise have been able to get into university.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We are your thoughts, Chris.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I mean, I think it's a bit of a shame.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I mean, I really liked the idea of the free spree,
especially moving it to the end. You know, the way
that the economy is going and the prospect for jobs
and stuff like that. We want as many people as
we can in any sort of education, and this felt
to me like a way that you could be helping
people out. So it just seems like, with everything that's
going on at the moment, it's just not one of
those things that we should be pulling out, and especially
(01:58):
with yeah, just the way the word's going at the moment,
it just feels a bit silly for me.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think it's interesting. There was a comment made that
it's going to make an immediate and long term impact
it's not going to make an immediate impact. That money's
not suddenly going to be sitting in a pot ready
to be spent. It's going to be loaned out and
very slowly paid back over a long period of time. Joe.
So you know, to me, I get why they've made
the decision, but this is this is going to have
(02:23):
a long term effect, not a short term effect.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yes, and it's only going to have a beneficial, long
term effect if that money is then used in a
way that, as Chris said, it has never been more
important to see people in all sorts of education. So
that's not just university, but all sorts of apprenticeships, all
sorts of secondary training institutions. But it's only going to
have a positive effect if that money is used in
(02:48):
a way that does reduce the barriers to entry for
those next steps in your education.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, and actually the barrier is it's it's expensive going
to university. It's not something for everybody anymore. You know,
it's twenty thousand dollars for a haul, fifteen to seventeen
thousand dollars. If you flat ten sort of nine and
a half up for your fees, it's pretty easy to
kind of clock up twenty five, you know, thirty thousand
dollars a year just to go to unit. You can't.
(03:17):
You don't go just to fill in some time, Joe.
You need to have a plan and not wasting any
time when you get there.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You know, ironically, it's well and truly not true anymore
that just getting a degree not set you up for life.
I mean, once upon a time you think, oh, well
you've done a degree, and there was a much I mean,
I'm sort of at the point now where I started
university just as they introduced fees, but they were much
lower than they are now, but also much you know,
(03:43):
far fewer people went to university, you know now, I
guess you know, it's I don't know which is a
better option where there's a lot more people can go
to university because you are able to access alone. However,
whether or not that degree is going to actually make
as much of a difference in your life is really questionable.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I mean, Chris, you've got to be keire what you
go and do. You're also going to consider AI and
you know graduate jobs are down at the moment as well.
Do you think they could be a concern that you know,
universities are going to struggle here. People are going to
go for certain degrees, other courses aren't going to be
so popular. There's going to be less fees coming in potentially,
and all of a sudden universities are having to increase
(04:26):
their fees.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Yeah, I think that's a real GENU would be concerned.
I mean, the point you're making about the cost is
totally right.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
I just saw on Instagram the other day a friend
environement in my early forties has just finished paying off
his student alone.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, like it's it's that expensive. It takes you
decades to get rid of it.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
So you know, why are we're removing an area that
just allows somebody to get in and then get out
of that debt fastest so they can be putting them
and into other parts of the economy.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I think that also. The other point of university is that.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Yes, it's all very important about what you study and
make sure you're picking the right things, but you know,
university does teach you the way to think and how
to be critical in terms of your thinking, which is
really important for all aspects of life. So I mean
I have to that I'm like on details in terms
of how much money this fee at this scheme would save. However,
it doesn't feel like a huge amount of money in
(05:14):
the global scheme of things, so it just seems a
bit redundant.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Liking you hire a lot of young people to Chris,
are you getting the feeling that you know, young people
are going to stick around longer in New Zealand or
will they you know, head off overseas. Somebody said to me,
makes no difference. The kids are going to Australia anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Yeah, I mean I'm a bit mixed about that one.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
I've put a wonderful group of young people that work
for me, and it's been with me for three, four
or five years, and they have throw no sign of
going anywhere. You know, Australia is great, there are plenty
of opportunities over there, but I think there's also a
lot of exciting stuff happening in our town, and I
think that those that are in it and are living
in the city and working and finding ways to do
things here aren't so excited about the overseas as some others.
(05:56):
I think if you've got a good job and you're
enjoying the town, then and people are sticking around well
at least they are in my neck of the words protest.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, I think that probably says something about you, Chris,
and the way you run your business and the job
that you do. There we go Joe off the back
of this. Of course, this was elaked by Winston Peters.
I seriously doubt whether the Finance Minister was happy about this.
Normally there can be a few sort of pre budget
announcements which are a carefully curated event. And for this
is to be blurted out without there being any other
(06:24):
messaging around that I'm sure did not go down. Well,
how much of this is a problem for the prime minister.
We saw the emails recently that Winston Peter's also leaked
about the Prime Minister's thoughts on I ran, and now
we have this, which is absolutely a slip up. Everybody
knows the first rule of budget is you don't leak
the budget.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Well, is it a slip up or you know? We
were talking about the emails on the Weekend Collective the
other day and you know, I said, it reminds you
that Peters is in opposition even when he is in.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Government, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And actually I think we're very much going to see
all three parties in this coalition government well and truly
attacking their coalition partners. So I think this is a
taste of what is to come. I think calling it
a slip up is very charitable to Peter's who, frankly
is a political animal and I and I think he
(07:17):
knows you know that. I don't think this coalish and
government has a lot of success they can stand on
and they're going to have to turn on each other,
and I think we're going to see a lot more
of it in the run up to the election.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I think I think it's perfectly acceptable Chris that we
see them debating their views and policies on his shoes.
But is this helpful when you're actually when it comes
to the budget, you are actually all in this together.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Oh? Absolutely. And I don't think I could have put
it any better than Joe. I mean, Winston Peters is
out there with his bit lighter and he's setting things
on fire.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Marshmallows everyone because.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
The bonfire is coming.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I mean, he The thing that I don't that I
can't quite understand is how we're going to get the
end of this election and say those parties are back
in a dominated position.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
How they're all going to sit around a table and
be like, oh, okay, well.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Let's get into government for three years, Because that's not
how the way it's going to go. I mean, they're
going to be getting back into government if they are,
but what two years eighteen months before.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
They turn on each other again.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
It's if I was christ of Relax, and I would
be very nervous about all of this.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
How do you Thomas Cogland said to me this morning,
Joe that if that was a National Party minister who
had leaked, that they'd probably be sacked.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Oh. I agree, you know, because it's so counter to
the spirit, and it's countered to the spirit which I
would like to see my elected members of Parliament operating.
I would like them to be able to have really
robust discussions, but that will not be possible when Peters
is leaking like a sief.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
It is own interest, very very quickly to the two
of you. Local council amalgamation. They've been given three months
by the government to come up with the plan as
to how to do it, which I think is actually
almost impossible because it's really complicated to merge counsels and
people and jobs and work out how to make it
function and restructure itself works better. Right, So do you
(09:20):
think they can do it, Joe, come up with a plan?
Yes or no?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Absolutely not. I mean, you know the reform is necessary,
but three months as a joke. And it's not just
three months. You know, regional counsels aren't able to put
proposals in. As my understanding, they can't bring in any
external capability. And I'm not like, thank goodness, the consultants
will save us. But you know this is asking an
(09:46):
impossible task of organizations that don't have that capacity and
funding and resource sitting around. I think it's it's almost
setting up to fail.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
Chris Oh, I totally aggree that there's more of a
chance of Winston Peter's going around to Christoph luxanct Doubt
for a barbecue than there is there is and then
be able to get themselves together. I think from my
experience of local council, you know, you've got your counselors
at one end, but you've got your board members and stuff.
There's a lot of people to have different says on this,
and I think that saying three months is setting everyone
up to fail, and it seems it seems silly. Un
(10:20):
this is a can intrutive option which they don't want
them to count with a planner.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Possibly the intention on the planner. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Joe
McCarroll and Chris Henry, thank you so much for your
time this morning.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Very much a free for more from the Sunday Session
with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to News Talks it'd be
from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News TALKS'B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And it is time for our panel, and I'm joined
by director at eight one eight Chris Henry. Good morning Chris,
and happy mother's dad. Oh, thank you very much. And
Joe McCarroll, journalist and editor, joins us as well.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi Joe, Oh Kayona Francisca and to Chris and happy
mother's stay, to all the mums, especially mine.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
There we go. Yes, if you've missed your moment, here's
your chance. Right, let's talk about the university Feasts Free scheme.
It's been canceled. This was sort of an announcement which
probably was not planned on Friday evening because of course
we're not supposed to talk about the budget before the budget.
But Winston just thought he'd let this slip out. If
(00:51):
you're going to remove theease free from tertiary study, should
you just remove it from everything across the board and
not try and pick and choose industries to apply it to?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Joe, we need more detail. We don't it's fair, but
we need more of this detail of Oh no, we're
going to apply it in a way that makes more
of a difference, and I don't see how just picking
and choosing where you gave that fees free leg up
is going to help. But I mean, I think this
would be a real gut punch if you were studying now.
(01:23):
But I would also say I'm not convinced that this
was a hand up that actually helped people who would
not otherwise have been able to get into university.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We are your thoughts, Chris.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I mean, I think it's a bit of a shame.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I mean, I really liked the idea of the free spree,
especially moving it to the end. You know, the way
that the economy is going and the prospect for jobs
and stuff like that. We want as many people as
we can in any sort of education, and this felt
to me like a way that you could be helping
people out. So it just seems like, with everything that's
going on at the moment, it's just not one of
those things that we should be pulling out, and especially
(01:58):
with yeah, just the way the word's going at the moment,
it just feels a bit silly for me.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think it's interesting. There was a comment made that
it's going to make an immediate and long term impact
it's not going to make an immediate impact. That money's
not suddenly going to be sitting in a pot ready
to be spent. It's going to be loaned out and
very slowly paid back over a long period of time. Joe.
So you know, to me, I get why they've made
the decision, but this is this is going to have
(02:23):
a long term effect, not a short term effect.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yes, and it's only going to have a beneficial, long
term effect if that money is then used in a
way that, as Chris said, it has never been more
important to see people in all sorts of education. So
that's not just university, but all sorts of apprenticeships, all
sorts of secondary training institutions. But it's only going to
have a positive effect if that money is used in
(02:48):
a way that does reduce the barriers to entry for
those next steps in your education.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, and actually the barrier is it's it's expensive going
to university. It's not something for everybody anymore. You know,
it's twenty thousand dollars for a haul, fifteen to seventeen
thousand dollars. If you flat ten sort of nine and
a half up for your fees, it's pretty easy to
kind of clock up twenty five, you know, thirty thousand
dollars a year just to go to unit. You can't.
(03:17):
You don't go just to fill in some time, Joe.
You need to have a plan and not wasting any
time when you get there.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You know, ironically, it's well and truly not true anymore
that just getting a degree not set you up for life.
I mean, once upon a time you think, oh, well
you've done a degree, and there was a much I mean,
I'm sort of at the point now where I started
university just as they introduced fees, but they were much
lower than they are now, but also much you know,
(03:43):
far fewer people went to university, you know now, I
guess you know, it's I don't know which is a
better option where there's a lot more people can go
to university because you are able to access alone. However,
whether or not that degree is going to actually make
as much of a difference in your life is really questionable.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I mean, Chris, you've got to be keire what you
go and do. You're also going to consider AI and
you know graduate jobs are down at the moment as well.
Do you think they could be a concern that you know,
universities are going to struggle here. People are going to
go for certain degrees, other courses aren't going to be
so popular. There's going to be less fees coming in potentially,
and all of a sudden universities are having to increase
(04:26):
their fees.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Yeah, I think that's a real GENU would be concerned.
I mean, the point you're making about the cost is
totally right.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
I just saw on Instagram the other day a friend
environement in my early forties has just finished paying off
his student alone.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, like it's it's that expensive. It takes you
decades to get rid of it.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
So you know, why are we're removing an area that
just allows somebody to get in and then get out
of that debt fastest so they can be putting them
and into other parts of the economy.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I think that also. The other point of university is that.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Yes, it's all very important about what you study and
make sure you're picking the right things, but you know,
university does teach you the way to think and how
to be critical in terms of your thinking, which is
really important for all aspects of life. So I mean
I have to that I'm like on details in terms
of how much money this fee at this scheme would save. However,
it doesn't feel like a huge amount of money in
(05:14):
the global scheme of things, so it just seems a
bit redundant.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Liking you hire a lot of young people to Chris,
are you getting the feeling that you know, young people
are going to stick around longer in New Zealand or
will they you know, head off overseas. Somebody said to me,
makes no difference. The kids are going to Australia anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Yeah, I mean I'm a bit mixed about that one.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
I've put a wonderful group of young people that work
for me, and it's been with me for three, four
or five years, and they have throw no sign of
going anywhere. You know, Australia is great, there are plenty
of opportunities over there, but I think there's also a
lot of exciting stuff happening in our town, and I
think that those that are in it and are living
in the city and working and finding ways to do
things here aren't so excited about the overseas as some others.
(05:56):
I think if you've got a good job and you're
enjoying the town, then and people are sticking around well
at least they are in my neck of the words protest.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, I think that probably says something about you, Chris,
and the way you run your business and the job
that you do. There we go Joe off the back
of this. Of course, this was elaked by Winston Peters.
I seriously doubt whether the Finance Minister was happy about this.
Normally there can be a few sort of pre budget
announcements which are a carefully curated event. And for this
is to be blurted out without there being any other
(06:24):
messaging around that I'm sure did not go down. Well,
how much of this is a problem for the prime minister.
We saw the emails recently that Winston Peter's also leaked
about the Prime Minister's thoughts on I ran, and now
we have this, which is absolutely a slip up. Everybody
knows the first rule of budget is you don't leak
the budget.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Well, is it a slip up or you know? We
were talking about the emails on the Weekend Collective the
other day and you know, I said, it reminds you
that Peters is in opposition even when he is in.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Government, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And actually I think we're very much going to see
all three parties in this coalition government well and truly
attacking their coalition partners. So I think this is a
taste of what is to come. I think calling it
a slip up is very charitable to Peter's who, frankly
is a political animal and I and I think he
(07:17):
knows you know that. I don't think this coalish and
government has a lot of success they can stand on
and they're going to have to turn on each other,
and I think we're going to see a lot more
of it in the run up to the election.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I think I think it's perfectly acceptable Chris that we
see them debating their views and policies on his shoes.
But is this helpful when you're actually when it comes
to the budget, you are actually all in this together.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Oh? Absolutely. And I don't think I could have put
it any better than Joe. I mean, Winston Peters is
out there with his bit lighter and he's setting things
on fire.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Marshmallows everyone because.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
The bonfire is coming.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I mean, he The thing that I don't that I
can't quite understand is how we're going to get the
end of this election and say those parties are back
in a dominated position.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
How they're all going to sit around a table and
be like, oh, okay, well.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Let's get into government for three years, Because that's not
how the way it's going to go. I mean, they're
going to be getting back into government if they are,
but what two years eighteen months before.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
They turn on each other again.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
It's if I was christ of Relax, and I would
be very nervous about all of this.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
How do you Thomas Cogland said to me this morning,
Joe that if that was a National Party minister who
had leaked, that they'd probably be sacked.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Oh. I agree, you know, because it's so counter to
the spirit, and it's countered to the spirit which I
would like to see my elected members of Parliament operating.
I would like them to be able to have really
robust discussions, but that will not be possible when Peters
is leaking like a sief.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
It is own interest, very very quickly to the two
of you. Local council amalgamation. They've been given three months
by the government to come up with the plan as
to how to do it, which I think is actually
almost impossible because it's really complicated to merge counsels and
people and jobs and work out how to make it
function and restructure itself works better. Right, So do you
(09:20):
think they can do it, Joe, come up with a plan?
Yes or no?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Absolutely not. I mean, you know the reform is necessary,
but three months as a joke. And it's not just
three months. You know, regional counsels aren't able to put
proposals in. As my understanding, they can't bring in any
external capability. And I'm not like, thank goodness, the consultants
will save us. But you know this is asking an
(09:46):
impossible task of organizations that don't have that capacity and
funding and resource sitting around. I think it's it's almost
setting up to fail.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
Chris Oh, I totally aggree that there's more of a
chance of Winston Peter's going around to Christoph luxanct Doubt
for a barbecue than there is there is and then
be able to get themselves together. I think from my
experience of local council, you know, you've got your counselors
at one end, but you've got your board members and stuff.
There's a lot of people to have different says on this,
and I think that saying three months is setting everyone
up to fail, and it seems it seems silly. Un
(10:20):
this is a can intrutive option which they don't want
them to count with a planner.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Possibly the intention on the planner. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Joe
McCarroll and Chris Henry, thank you so much for your
time this morning.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Very much a free for more from the Sunday Session
with Francesca Rudkin, listen live to News Talks it'd be
from nine am Sunday, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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