Yesterday's Strategic Partnership with India means we've elevated our relationship to more than just a bilateral affair.
We've set out a goal to double two-way trade by 2030, expressed interest in other sectors like tourism, farming, and sport, and agreed to increase our maritime cooperation with India's Defence Force.
With tensions already lurking in the Indo-Pacific with China, and global volatility feeling like it could come from just one wrong-move, how does the partnership with India actually change our geopolitical profile?
Canterbury University Professor Anne Marie-Bradydiscusses the caveats and potential concerns of this agreement.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The big news over the weekend, of course, was the
free Trade Agreement with India, and we hadn't announced in
yesterday about a thing called a strategic partnership, which means
we've elevated our relationship to more than just a bilateral affair.
Apparently the two of us now Drm Modi Gi, the
Prime Minister of New Zealand, and of course Christopher Luckson,
(00:30):
the Prime Minister of India and Christopher Luckson, the Prime
Minister of New Zealand, have set out a goal to
double two way trade by twenty thirty and expressed interest
in other sectors like tourism, farming and sport not necessarily
covered under the FTA, So, you know, just to do
a little bit more, to have a strategic partnership and
(00:51):
to work together and think how about how we can
work together. A key part of that part of the
agreement is that we'll also be increasing our maritime cooperation
with India's defense force. So obviously this is in line
with the fact that we feel that there is increasing
tensions in the Indo Pacific area. The Indians are in
the Indo Pacific area. We're in the Pacific area. We
should work together to repel anybody who's got bad intentions
(01:14):
for our area. But those tensions are lurking, and we
know where they're looking from. They're looking from China and
global volatility feeling like it could come from just one
wrong move. How will this partnership with India actually change
our geopolitical profile? Will it do more bad than good?
Will it do any good at all? Can be? University
Professor A. Marie Brady is joining me now this Matha
(01:37):
Liki Sunday to talk about the caveats and the potential
concerns of this agreement. Amrie, good morning to.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
You, Good afternoon, Andrew, good still to you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Very good. So what was your initial reaction to the
partnership yesterday? A small country once again getting into bed
with a big country the same way we did with China,
which comes with a lot of benefits but also a
lot of fishooks.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well with our governments series of governments have been very
proactive on the diplomatic front in the last eight years
because they recognized that the global order has changed. In fact,
told us we're in a very grim strategic environment, and
they were reiterated that that was in twenty three, and
(02:23):
they reiterated that we've heard many times from our politicians
that we haven't seen anything as serious is what we're
facing from a number of state actives in our lived history.
So what our government's doing is elevating relations with other
(02:43):
like minded states, small and medium powers. India's not a
great power, but they have some quite a few points
in common with us, and they were very keen to
get a trade agreement with US. People said, oh, it
was going to be impossible, but actually India was very
very motivated and that's why that agreement progressed a lot
(03:03):
faster than people thought. So the new wording that came
out yesterday, it's really just putting more gloss on things
that have already been agreeder on defense, co operation and
trade and investment.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, and is it the right thing to do right
now to prevent excessive, excessive influence from our bigg trade
partners to have a lot of trade agreements all over
the place rather than putting all our eggs in one basket.
So the more broader our trading partners are, the better.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well, it's been the policy of New Zealand governments since
the John P government around about twenty fourteen started talking
about diversifying our trade strategy. So it's just good common sense.
You know, any business will know you don't want to
put your eggs in one basket. You don't want to
be reliant on one market, and so the more the better.
And the problem is for our export is that our
(04:01):
government gave them a lot of help over more than
twenty years on how to understand the China market. So
we need them to pull in ZP offices out of China.
There's no need for them to be in there now.
They're trying to add value. That's good for the exports,
but put people into Indonesia, Vietnam, India and help our
exporters understand those markets so that we can get some
(04:24):
balance and range in places that we're going to send
our goods. Of course, we've learned this year how important
the sea line lanes of communication on and suddenly everyone
knows about the Strait of Poor Meuity we when we
get our most of our oil there and it comes
through the Indian Ocean. We do want to be friends
with the Indians, you know, the defense cooperation we've got
(04:47):
very we don't have a lot of capacity in our
rural New Zealand Navy, so we're not going to be
doing a huge amount, but it's always good to have
an extra friend. We're not going to lose out here.
And the Australians are linked with India in the Quad
and maybe that's something we would consider too that we
do have limited Then you meet about houton and about
(05:08):
where the money is coming from from Nybor. National problem
is we've got to put money into defense and security
at the moment and they all know that. So something's
going to suffer.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, something's going to break. What's the quad?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
The Quad is Australia, the United States, India and Japan
who do it and it's it's uh, you know, it's
kind of avr and it works when it works. They
they they all, they're all have very different views in
India like a couple of other medium powers. Turkey also
(05:43):
they maintain relations with Russia while improved having good relations
with the United States and other partners. But Vietnams like
this too. So we're not going for alliances. You're just
finding common ground, working with countries where you can on
common interest and that's what we do. With China too.
We have a dictum that we who's on China looking
(06:06):
for common points and facing up to differences. You will
hear crys relux and use that language when you spoke
to the New Zealand China Business Council some like a
couple of weeks ago. So we partner as much as
we can think of the global goods. We have to
partner with all kinds of countries on climate change, for example.
But where there is an issue, we will speak up,
not necessarily through a megaphone, but it's you know, it's
(06:29):
more likely diplomat to the diplomly.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well here we go there. And this comes back to
how I introduce the interview when it comes to speaking
up about our point of view, and you say to
do it forcefully, but not with a megaphone. We've had
a situation over the past week where we've been actually
sending the little rattles of very tiny savers to China.
We criticize them for the ballistic missile test of course
(06:51):
that landed in the South Pacific, saying that we hadn't
had enough notice, saying that this is a nuclear free zone.
There are some that say we could have actually been
more aggressive in our tone towards China. But we did
that there. Now they sit there this weekend and see
that we're forming in a military alliance with India, which
actually puts more pressure on them as well. Now, how
(07:13):
will China be reacting to the way that New Zealand
is starting to bring forces together against their influence.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, I just I'd like to give you some feedback
on your framing. Right at the beginning, we didn't do
any saber rattling with China. It was the other way around.
So their missile launch into the waters international waters just
north of Tavalu, that was a military show of forts.
They were showing to the world that they had second
strike nuclear deterrence that has the range that would get
(07:43):
to the United States, we'd get to Australia, and they
launched it from their own internal waters fit out into
the Pacific and to the peaceful waters of the South
pacifics that is a nuclear free zone. And China signed
up to that agreement in nineteen eighty seven, the Treaty Raratonga,
so as China who had the Agresive Act and New Zealand,
(08:06):
Australia one or two Tonga. Marshall Islands even some more
have all spoken up at png PG, so that everywhere
at Tuvalu, there's been very few. At Palao. Basically everybody
else in the Pacific Island Forum have said to China, hey,
(08:26):
don't do that, that's not okay. And so we've just
did what there was the right thing to do, which
that was not a you know, people have said, oh,
it's the same is what the Americans do in the
Marshall Islands. It's not because the marsh The US got
a base in the Marshall Islands at Quaiduline. They've got
an agreement with the Marshall Islands out their tests. China
didn't have an agreement to drop a missile, which they
(08:47):
gave very little warning to anybody about, which is really
as breach of the international rules around when you're going
to do miss artists. So what we're trying to think
about US and India, well they'll say what they're going
to say. They really do, like they're really very aggressively
these days. They will make a lot of noise. But
New Zealand just needs to become our gain. Several governments,
(09:10):
starting with Nanaima Hootera as Foreign Minister, have said we
have a mature relationship with China is Subsequent foreign mister
Piments have said the same words. Mature means that, you know,
we're not always going to agree and we're comfortable with that,
and that's how it should be. And it's the same
we also, you know, historically we spoke up and disagreed
(09:31):
with the US, France and the UKO are nuclear testing
way back in the early seventies in nineteen eighty seven
meticular legislation that's will we are, but we're not. You know,
we've still got to be maintained positive relations where you
can with all states because you know, there's always going
to be a situation where the diplants have to intervene
and help a New Zealander somewhere. They don't want to
(09:51):
be odd with every country.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Now you're absolutely right, of course that they did the
saber rattling, but at the same time they're not involved
in any real conflict around the place. They pose a
potential and theoretical threat. But our biggest trading partner, America
is currently involved in wars and is actively actually not
not just testing weapons and testing missiles, but dropping them.
(10:14):
So really, when we start thinking about you know who's
the big tough guys and who are the guys holding
us to ransom. It's not just China, it's also America.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Well, the US is not how I thing a strength
I mean iranas at the moment, because there's charge going
to charge a fee on us of an international strength.
But China is steadily increasing the effect of the barge
around Taiwan, and that will directly effect our interest if
there is any conflict in Taiwan. So it's not correct.
So they're not involved in conflict. What they're doing is
(10:47):
a lot of they call it deal use and gray zone.
So China's avoiding kinetic warfare, so that's really obvious bombing
kind of warfare. They're doing good analogies, frog in the pot,
you know, a whole lot of things that it gets
to the loads of the thresholds where our governments or
other governments can say, hey, you know you can't do that.
Newis does have agreements in place to protect Taiwan. So
(11:09):
China is doing everything it can is to surround Taiwan
so they don't have freedom of navigation and so but
that partners cannot intervene, and they are also engaging a
lot of subversion in Taiwan. So we have seventy five
percent of our trade up in the APEC area. We
(11:29):
would be as threatened, if not more, by what China
wants to do in Taiwan, by the conflict that's still
underway in the straight of full moods. So it's a
very internect the word in our you know, we're a
trading nation. We rely on a peaceful global order, and
that's just not there now, which is why our government's
(11:50):
trying hard to you know, find countries that will agree
with us and uphold it's not the international will still
operate some some bits. It's not all gone. That's why
where we can partner as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
My memory about a year ago, of course, when I
started seeing the whole Russian Ukraine thing and then started
to see the China thing and all that sort of stuff.
I actually made a comment on an editorial piece where
I said, what we're seeing right now is the elephants
have decided to start dancing after a long period of
time where they haven't danced, where there is a lot
of signaling of aggressive intent from everybody, And I said,
(12:24):
the problem when the elephants start dancing is that the
mice get crushed and we're the mice. And so what
we're needing right now is some pretty nifty footwork to
keep away from these dancing elephants and making sure that
we aren't collateral damage.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, well we're not the only in that situation. So
most countries are the world of small and medium powers
and they're also horrified by what's going on. I've just
come back from Europe and been had a conference at
the European Parliament, and we've got a lot of countries
in the world who had the similar views to us.
So that's why we've got a very proactive diplomatic strategy
(13:02):
at the moment, and other countries are responding to that.
You know that partnership has got the defense new defense
agreement with India. We're also partnering with Germany. Now you know,
our grandparents couldn't believe that in Japan and Korea, and
so that's an indicator of how we're broadening. It's not
just about US relations or Australia, which was very important
(13:25):
to us. We're also boarding relationship with other partners who
had the same concerns as us. We want to maintain
the peace and finding trying to find a way to
deal with the behavior of some very very aggressive players.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
In the world, which brings us back to what we
started talking about, which is the India Free Trade Agreement,
which is part of diversifying our income streams and our
relationships around the world with a party that also likes
cricket and so in many ways it's a very good thing.
Amory Brady, that was a fascinating conversation. I thank you
for your time today, all the best, enjoy the rest
of your weekend. A Marie of course geopolitical expert and
(14:00):
also at the Canopy University. And we all know what
Amory has railed against the Chinese government for a long
time because of the humanitarian excesses and their long term goals.
So we know no wishes at but it makes total
sense to diversify the risk.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The big news over the weekend, of course, was the
free Trade Agreement with India, and we hadn't announced in
yesterday about a thing called a strategic partnership, which means
we've elevated our relationship to more than just a bilateral affair.
Apparently the two of us now Drm Modi Gi, the
Prime Minister of New Zealand, and of course Christopher Luckson,
(00:30):
the Prime Minister of India and Christopher Luckson, the Prime
Minister of New Zealand, have set out a goal to
double two way trade by twenty thirty and expressed interest
in other sectors like tourism, farming and sport not necessarily
covered under the FTA, So, you know, just to do
a little bit more, to have a strategic partnership and
(00:51):
to work together and think how about how we can
work together. A key part of that part of the
agreement is that we'll also be increasing our maritime cooperation
with India's defense force. So obviously this is in line
with the fact that we feel that there is increasing
tensions in the Indo Pacific area. The Indians are in
the Indo Pacific area. We're in the Pacific area. We
should work together to repel anybody who's got bad intentions
(01:14):
for our area. But those tensions are lurking, and we
know where they're looking from. They're looking from China and
global volatility feeling like it could come from just one
wrong move. How will this partnership with India actually change
our geopolitical profile? Will it do more bad than good?
Will it do any good at all? Can be? University
Professor A. Marie Brady is joining me now this Matha
(01:37):
Liki Sunday to talk about the caveats and the potential
concerns of this agreement. Amrie, good morning to.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
You, Good afternoon, Andrew, good still to you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Very good. So what was your initial reaction to the
partnership yesterday? A small country once again getting into bed
with a big country the same way we did with China,
which comes with a lot of benefits but also a
lot of fishooks.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Well with our governments series of governments have been very
proactive on the diplomatic front in the last eight years
because they recognized that the global order has changed. In fact,
told us we're in a very grim strategic environment, and
they were reiterated that that was in twenty three, and
(02:23):
they reiterated that we've heard many times from our politicians
that we haven't seen anything as serious is what we're
facing from a number of state actives in our lived history.
So what our government's doing is elevating relations with other
(02:43):
like minded states, small and medium powers. India's not a
great power, but they have some quite a few points
in common with us, and they were very keen to
get a trade agreement with US. People said, oh, it
was going to be impossible, but actually India was very
very motivated and that's why that agreement progressed a lot
(03:03):
faster than people thought. So the new wording that came
out yesterday, it's really just putting more gloss on things
that have already been agreeder on defense, co operation and
trade and investment.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, and is it the right thing to do right
now to prevent excessive, excessive influence from our bigg trade
partners to have a lot of trade agreements all over
the place rather than putting all our eggs in one basket.
So the more broader our trading partners are, the better.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well, it's been the policy of New Zealand governments since
the John P government around about twenty fourteen started talking
about diversifying our trade strategy. So it's just good common sense.
You know, any business will know you don't want to
put your eggs in one basket. You don't want to
be reliant on one market, and so the more the better.
And the problem is for our export is that our
(04:01):
government gave them a lot of help over more than
twenty years on how to understand the China market. So
we need them to pull in ZP offices out of China.
There's no need for them to be in there now.
They're trying to add value. That's good for the exports,
but put people into Indonesia, Vietnam, India and help our
exporters understand those markets so that we can get some
(04:24):
balance and range in places that we're going to send
our goods. Of course, we've learned this year how important
the sea line lanes of communication on and suddenly everyone
knows about the Strait of Poor Meuity we when we
get our most of our oil there and it comes
through the Indian Ocean. We do want to be friends
with the Indians, you know, the defense cooperation we've got
(04:47):
very we don't have a lot of capacity in our
rural New Zealand Navy, so we're not going to be
doing a huge amount, but it's always good to have
an extra friend. We're not going to lose out here.
And the Australians are linked with India in the Quad
and maybe that's something we would consider too that we
do have limited Then you meet about houton and about
(05:08):
where the money is coming from from Nybor. National problem
is we've got to put money into defense and security
at the moment and they all know that. So something's
going to suffer.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, something's going to break. What's the quad?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
The Quad is Australia, the United States, India and Japan
who do it and it's it's uh, you know, it's
kind of avr and it works when it works. They
they they all, they're all have very different views in
India like a couple of other medium powers. Turkey also
(05:43):
they maintain relations with Russia while improved having good relations
with the United States and other partners. But Vietnams like
this too. So we're not going for alliances. You're just
finding common ground, working with countries where you can on
common interest and that's what we do. With China too.
We have a dictum that we who's on China looking
(06:06):
for common points and facing up to differences. You will
hear crys relux and use that language when you spoke
to the New Zealand China Business Council some like a
couple of weeks ago. So we partner as much as
we can think of the global goods. We have to
partner with all kinds of countries on climate change, for example.
But where there is an issue, we will speak up,
not necessarily through a megaphone, but it's you know, it's
(06:29):
more likely diplomat to the diplomly.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well here we go there. And this comes back to
how I introduce the interview when it comes to speaking
up about our point of view, and you say to
do it forcefully, but not with a megaphone. We've had
a situation over the past week where we've been actually
sending the little rattles of very tiny savers to China.
We criticize them for the ballistic missile test of course
(06:51):
that landed in the South Pacific, saying that we hadn't
had enough notice, saying that this is a nuclear free zone.
There are some that say we could have actually been
more aggressive in our tone towards China. But we did
that there. Now they sit there this weekend and see
that we're forming in a military alliance with India, which
actually puts more pressure on them as well. Now, how
(07:13):
will China be reacting to the way that New Zealand
is starting to bring forces together against their influence.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, I just I'd like to give you some feedback
on your framing. Right at the beginning, we didn't do
any saber rattling with China. It was the other way around.
So their missile launch into the waters international waters just
north of Tavalu, that was a military show of forts.
They were showing to the world that they had second
strike nuclear deterrence that has the range that would get
(07:43):
to the United States, we'd get to Australia, and they
launched it from their own internal waters fit out into
the Pacific and to the peaceful waters of the South
pacifics that is a nuclear free zone. And China signed
up to that agreement in nineteen eighty seven, the Treaty Raratonga,
so as China who had the Agresive Act and New Zealand,
(08:06):
Australia one or two Tonga. Marshall Islands even some more
have all spoken up at png PG, so that everywhere
at Tuvalu, there's been very few. At Palao. Basically everybody
else in the Pacific Island Forum have said to China, hey,
(08:26):
don't do that, that's not okay. And so we've just
did what there was the right thing to do, which
that was not a you know, people have said, oh,
it's the same is what the Americans do in the
Marshall Islands. It's not because the marsh The US got
a base in the Marshall Islands at Quaiduline. They've got
an agreement with the Marshall Islands out their tests. China
didn't have an agreement to drop a missile, which they
(08:47):
gave very little warning to anybody about, which is really
as breach of the international rules around when you're going
to do miss artists. So what we're trying to think
about US and India, well they'll say what they're going
to say. They really do, like they're really very aggressively
these days. They will make a lot of noise. But
New Zealand just needs to become our gain. Several governments,
(09:10):
starting with Nanaima Hootera as Foreign Minister, have said we
have a mature relationship with China is Subsequent foreign mister
Piments have said the same words. Mature means that, you know,
we're not always going to agree and we're comfortable with that,
and that's how it should be. And it's the same
we also, you know, historically we spoke up and disagreed
(09:31):
with the US, France and the UKO are nuclear testing
way back in the early seventies in nineteen eighty seven
meticular legislation that's will we are, but we're not. You know,
we've still got to be maintained positive relations where you
can with all states because you know, there's always going
to be a situation where the diplants have to intervene
and help a New Zealander somewhere. They don't want to
(09:51):
be odd with every country.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Now you're absolutely right, of course that they did the
saber rattling, but at the same time they're not involved
in any real conflict around the place. They pose a
potential and theoretical threat. But our biggest trading partner, America
is currently involved in wars and is actively actually not
not just testing weapons and testing missiles, but dropping them.
(10:14):
So really, when we start thinking about you know who's
the big tough guys and who are the guys holding
us to ransom. It's not just China, it's also America.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Well, the US is not how I thing a strength
I mean iranas at the moment, because there's charge going
to charge a fee on us of an international strength.
But China is steadily increasing the effect of the barge
around Taiwan, and that will directly effect our interest if
there is any conflict in Taiwan. So it's not correct.
So they're not involved in conflict. What they're doing is
(10:47):
a lot of they call it deal use and gray zone.
So China's avoiding kinetic warfare, so that's really obvious bombing
kind of warfare. They're doing good analogies, frog in the pot,
you know, a whole lot of things that it gets
to the loads of the thresholds where our governments or
other governments can say, hey, you know you can't do that.
Newis does have agreements in place to protect Taiwan. So
(11:09):
China is doing everything it can is to surround Taiwan
so they don't have freedom of navigation and so but
that partners cannot intervene, and they are also engaging a
lot of subversion in Taiwan. So we have seventy five
percent of our trade up in the APEC area. We
(11:29):
would be as threatened, if not more, by what China
wants to do in Taiwan, by the conflict that's still
underway in the straight of full moods. So it's a
very internect the word in our you know, we're a
trading nation. We rely on a peaceful global order, and
that's just not there now, which is why our government's
(11:50):
trying hard to you know, find countries that will agree
with us and uphold it's not the international will still
operate some some bits. It's not all gone. That's why
where we can partner as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
My memory about a year ago, of course, when I
started seeing the whole Russian Ukraine thing and then started
to see the China thing and all that sort of stuff.
I actually made a comment on an editorial piece where
I said, what we're seeing right now is the elephants
have decided to start dancing after a long period of
time where they haven't danced, where there is a lot
of signaling of aggressive intent from everybody, And I said,
(12:24):
the problem when the elephants start dancing is that the
mice get crushed and we're the mice. And so what
we're needing right now is some pretty nifty footwork to
keep away from these dancing elephants and making sure that
we aren't collateral damage.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, well we're not the only in that situation. So
most countries are the world of small and medium powers
and they're also horrified by what's going on. I've just
come back from Europe and been had a conference at
the European Parliament, and we've got a lot of countries
in the world who had the similar views to us.
So that's why we've got a very proactive diplomatic strategy
(13:02):
at the moment, and other countries are responding to that.
You know that partnership has got the defense new defense
agreement with India. We're also partnering with Germany. Now you know,
our grandparents couldn't believe that in Japan and Korea, and
so that's an indicator of how we're broadening. It's not
just about US relations or Australia, which was very important
(13:25):
to us. We're also boarding relationship with other partners who
had the same concerns as us. We want to maintain
the peace and finding trying to find a way to
deal with the behavior of some very very aggressive players.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
In the world, which brings us back to what we
started talking about, which is the India Free Trade Agreement,
which is part of diversifying our income streams and our
relationships around the world with a party that also likes
cricket and so in many ways it's a very good thing.
Amory Brady, that was a fascinating conversation. I thank you
for your time today, all the best, enjoy the rest
of your weekend. A Marie of course geopolitical expert and
(14:00):
also at the Canopy University. And we all know what
Amory has railed against the Chinese government for a long
time because of the humanitarian excesses and their long term goals.
So we know no wishes at but it makes total
sense to diversify the risk.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com