April 18, 2026 • 11 mins
New Zealand First has announced they will be campaigning on a new policy to end the supermarket duopoly.
The policy would give the Commerce Commission powers to enforce increased penalties for breaches and reform the role of the Groceries Commissioner, which the party says is currently toothless.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'd be so yes, New Zealand. First, Why they're rocking
and rolling on the announcements, aren't they? They have announced
that they will be campaigning on a new policy to
end the supermarket duopoly. The policy would give the Commerce
Commission powers to enforce increased penalties for breaches and reform
the role of the Groceri's Commissioner, which the party says
(00:30):
is currently toothless. Aren't they in government? Now? I didn't
mind anyway, but anyway, former CEO of the Food and
Grocery Council Ernie Newman joins me now and Ernie Gooda,
how are you well?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So look, it feels like we've been promised and entered
the duopoly for quite a few years now. Is this
a vote winner that people are going to really latch
onto or an empty promise?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Well? I believe it is a vote winner if they
do it. But you know, call me bias. I've been
being all about this the years. How the supermarket sector
has extended to the point that there is no competition,
and you know, capitalism just doesn't work without competition. So
the question really is will they will they do it?
(01:18):
And I think there is an opportunity looking at the
politics of it. I think Nichola Willis has said several
times that she's absolutely got this one and she's going
to do it, but she hasn't. But I think the
issue here is the influence of the of the far
right and the current coalition. I think that they're putting
the car wash on it. So if Winston has a
(01:41):
stronger position in the next government but he has on
this one, I'd run a bet that he would he
would go ahead and do this.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So is that what we're looking at is that Winston's
campaigning for a larger share of the vote, so next
time there's a coalition negotiation, he'll have more of a
chance of this being successful because he's in government now. Obviously,
yeah he is.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
But you know, it's a pretty uneasy coalition we can
all see, and the fire right does have a lot
of influence there. But unfortunately the far right of politics
talking you know, the ACT Party and whatever, they're very
much there and supportive really big businesses, and they're not
there for the SMEs. They're not there for the little
(02:22):
up and coming guys. And that's the problem we have
in the in the grocery sector that the supermarkets have
become all powerful, and because of that they determine what
products do and don't make the nation's shelves, and hundreds
of smaller businesses are unable to unable to get a
put on.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
When you say the far right, do you mean ACT
or do you mean ACT plus parts of the National Party?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Oh? Probably the latter. I think, I don't know. I
mean politics are not my specialty whatever, but I find
it frustrating that even people who you know are very
supportive of free markets and capitalism and whatever, they can't
work without competition. Capitalism is determined on is absolutely reliant
(03:09):
on two things to work. One is people having a
bit of a social conscience and the other is that
there is effective competition. If you don't do both those
things and the capitalism falls apart. And then I think,
is what we've what we've seen the last three years?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What about the mechanics of ending in jeopoly? Is it
sort of fraught or is it struck quite straight ahead?
Like you two, you're splitting your in a half.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Got you're speaking to one who was in the of
the sharp end when we broke up telecom back in
the two thousands, and believe me, it's fought. And every
industry is different, you know, it's want to be quite
different from telecommunications. When they eventually get to the electricity
(03:54):
industry or the banks, they will be different. Again, the
detail is very much different, but the the end result
is the same that we've got to have proper competition.
So it's interesting. It's interesting in the say today that
they singled out food suff I mean, we have a
geopolyear one is food Srut, the other one is Walworth
and they kind of let Wilworth lie as it is.
(04:18):
And I think there is a certain logic in that
because fred Sruft is marginally bigger. It's it has grown
up in a different sort of way. It's started off
life as a cooperative and it still likes to call
itself a cooperative and you know, put the emphasis on,
you know, our friendly family grossers who own all the
local businesses. And but you know how true that is
(04:40):
these days? It is very hard to uncover. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Deep See the question I've got is, you know, it's
one thing to split up the existing players, but isn't
the real challenges we meet We need more players, not
just two smaller parts of the same sum. You know,
what isn't the will it make a difference or do
we need new players in the market.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
It will make a difference that it's done properly. But
the problem is that it would be very, very very
difficult to get a completely new player to come into
the New Zealand market at this point in time. And
you know, to give the government it's due it to dry.
It's sort of to pick up the phone and rang
a few people in Australia and America and whatever, and
they all said, take a running jump. It is impossible
(05:28):
for a new infant to come in and break in
to a market that has got as screwed up as
this one is now, simply because you know, they have
unlimited power to actually close a new entrant out. The
sites are not there. You know, we arguably have too
many supermarkets in this country, not too few, and the
issue is that the ownership of them is too concentrated
(05:49):
on a couple of entities.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I mean also as part, we often hear about
excess profits. But when we hear I've heard Nicola Willis
talking about getting the prices down, and you see by
how much she's talking about. It really amounts to bugger all,
if you could excuse my language. But as it's the
real issue, just the fact that we are also you know,
the economics of getting our goods to a small and
spread out country, you're always going to make our goods
(06:13):
a little bit pricey.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think two answers to that. One is I don't
actually believe the Communist Commission on this one. You know,
they talk about excess profits of but I think four
hundred four hundred million a year. I believe it's vastly
more than that. You know, companies like this have unlimited
ways to actually disguise their profits, and I think we're
paying a lot more excess profit than that would suggest.
(06:39):
And you know, the other the other angle to that,
now I've lost my train of thought.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Was it was about, you know, the economics of being
a spread out country and there's only so many savings.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
You know. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, to to take
a bit of license or of language as you did.
That is a bull show that arguments just doesn't sex
this steck up. You know, we are a food bowl
to the world. We are a very very efficient producer
of all lines of food and we should be highly competitive.
So and you know, back in the day, we used
(07:11):
to produce probably the eighty percent of our grosser we
see it. I hate to think what the percentage is now.
So no, the argument that we're too isolated and we
have to pay a premium on world prices because we'll
stack up to the extent that it is true, that
is because the supermarkets have manipulators it that way.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So would you say that the biggest driver of the
high prices we're paying is the structure, the stew opolation.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Absolutely absolutely, the fact that there is no competition or
very limited competition at retail and that enables them to
make superprofits.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So what's how difficult will it be? Let's say that
the you know, the coalition, whatever happens in the election
in New Zealand first can get its wish and have
a crack at breakout the jew Oplan. It's got the
support of its partners. How easy or difficult? What sort
of time period do you reckon it would take to
achieve what we're looking for.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It won't be and you know, believe me, there will
be a hundred drawyers working full time to make it
as difficult as possible. You know, looking back to the
telecom days, it basically took the best part of a decade.
But you know, there were there were increments along the way.
You'd make you know, take three steps forward, two steps back,
(08:26):
and all of a sudden things were a little bit better.
So you gradually make a bit of headway and then
all of a sudden, you know, eight or ten years later,
you get the big breakthrough. It will be a long process,
but you know, the interesting thing with telecom there was
a moment in time where they suddenly woke up to
the fact that they couldn't stop this movement, but it
was too strong that it was going to happen, and
(08:47):
then they rolled over.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Is that the sort of the poster child for a
breakup is what we were paying for telecom now and
what we've got these days.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Fact well, I think it proves that it can be done.
And you know, these things are notoriously difficult all around
the world, and as I say, the two industries were
very different. But it does show that in a small
country like this you can actually if you approach these
things systematically and logically and with the writing and goal
(09:18):
in site, you can actually make them happen, and I.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Believe we can because it has appeared that Nichola Wellis
really has to I know, we possibly might beginning to
repeat yourself, but she seemed pretty serious about trying to
do something about it, and all of a sudden, just
you know, nothing's really happened.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So exactly that's exactly the year. And my my intuitive
feeling is that the coalition pointed the finger at her
and said, no, you're not to do this. Okay. You know,
there's a lot of political donations go on, a lot
of a lot of behind the scenes stuff goes on,
and I think she basically lost heart on us. I mean,
(09:56):
I might be doing her an injustice, but I'd be
surprised to see you pick it up seriously again.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Now, well, unless there's an election result that sort of
pushes it that way. Well, you said you're not a
political animal. You're sure you haven't been tempted to pick
up the phone and sort of put your name on
the get on the hustings there.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Anie, I don't think i'd have the patience for that.
I actually like to see things happen, but no, I mean,
it is a political problem, but it simply requires the
determination of the politicians to see it through. And at
the end of the day, this thing will happen because
(10:33):
of public pressure. You know, politicians are torn between the
big businesses, the little businesses and the consumers and try
and satisfy everyone. And what's going to happen here is
the consumers have got to stand up and say we've
had enough. We want a proper competitive supermarket industry in
this country.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Good stuff. Hey, thanks, Ernie, really appreciate your time, Stapening,
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'd be so yes, New Zealand. First, Why they're rocking
and rolling on the announcements, aren't they? They have announced
that they will be campaigning on a new policy to
end the supermarket duopoly. The policy would give the Commerce
Commission powers to enforce increased penalties for breaches and reform
the role of the Groceri's Commissioner, which the party says
(00:30):
is currently toothless. Aren't they in government? Now? I didn't
mind anyway, but anyway, former CEO of the Food and
Grocery Council Ernie Newman joins me now and Ernie Gooda,
how are you well?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So look, it feels like we've been promised and entered
the duopoly for quite a few years now. Is this
a vote winner that people are going to really latch
onto or an empty promise?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Well? I believe it is a vote winner if they
do it. But you know, call me bias. I've been
being all about this the years. How the supermarket sector
has extended to the point that there is no competition,
and you know, capitalism just doesn't work without competition. So
the question really is will they will they do it?
(01:18):
And I think there is an opportunity looking at the
politics of it. I think Nichola Willis has said several
times that she's absolutely got this one and she's going
to do it, but she hasn't. But I think the
issue here is the influence of the of the far
right and the current coalition. I think that they're putting
the car wash on it. So if Winston has a
(01:41):
stronger position in the next government but he has on
this one, I'd run a bet that he would he
would go ahead and do this.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So is that what we're looking at is that Winston's
campaigning for a larger share of the vote, so next
time there's a coalition negotiation, he'll have more of a
chance of this being successful because he's in government now. Obviously,
yeah he is.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
But you know, it's a pretty uneasy coalition we can
all see, and the fire right does have a lot
of influence there. But unfortunately the far right of politics
talking you know, the ACT Party and whatever, they're very
much there and supportive really big businesses, and they're not
there for the SMEs. They're not there for the little
(02:22):
up and coming guys. And that's the problem we have
in the in the grocery sector that the supermarkets have
become all powerful, and because of that they determine what
products do and don't make the nation's shelves, and hundreds
of smaller businesses are unable to unable to get a
put on.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
When you say the far right, do you mean ACT
or do you mean ACT plus parts of the National Party?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Oh? Probably the latter. I think, I don't know. I
mean politics are not my specialty whatever, but I find
it frustrating that even people who you know are very
supportive of free markets and capitalism and whatever, they can't
work without competition. Capitalism is determined on is absolutely reliant
(03:09):
on two things to work. One is people having a
bit of a social conscience and the other is that
there is effective competition. If you don't do both those
things and the capitalism falls apart. And then I think,
is what we've what we've seen the last three years?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What about the mechanics of ending in jeopoly? Is it
sort of fraught or is it struck quite straight ahead?
Like you two, you're splitting your in a half.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Got you're speaking to one who was in the of
the sharp end when we broke up telecom back in
the two thousands, and believe me, it's fought. And every
industry is different, you know, it's want to be quite
different from telecommunications. When they eventually get to the electricity
(03:54):
industry or the banks, they will be different. Again, the
detail is very much different, but the the end result
is the same that we've got to have proper competition.
So it's interesting. It's interesting in the say today that
they singled out food suff I mean, we have a
geopolyear one is food Srut, the other one is Walworth
and they kind of let Wilworth lie as it is.
(04:18):
And I think there is a certain logic in that
because fred Sruft is marginally bigger. It's it has grown
up in a different sort of way. It's started off
life as a cooperative and it still likes to call
itself a cooperative and you know, put the emphasis on,
you know, our friendly family grossers who own all the
local businesses. And but you know how true that is
(04:40):
these days? It is very hard to uncover. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Deep See the question I've got is, you know, it's
one thing to split up the existing players, but isn't
the real challenges we meet We need more players, not
just two smaller parts of the same sum. You know,
what isn't the will it make a difference or do
we need new players in the market.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
It will make a difference that it's done properly. But
the problem is that it would be very, very very
difficult to get a completely new player to come into
the New Zealand market at this point in time. And
you know, to give the government it's due it to dry.
It's sort of to pick up the phone and rang
a few people in Australia and America and whatever, and
they all said, take a running jump. It is impossible
(05:28):
for a new infant to come in and break in
to a market that has got as screwed up as
this one is now, simply because you know, they have
unlimited power to actually close a new entrant out. The
sites are not there. You know, we arguably have too
many supermarkets in this country, not too few, and the
issue is that the ownership of them is too concentrated
(05:49):
on a couple of entities.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I mean also as part, we often hear about
excess profits. But when we hear I've heard Nicola Willis
talking about getting the prices down, and you see by
how much she's talking about. It really amounts to bugger all,
if you could excuse my language. But as it's the
real issue, just the fact that we are also you know,
the economics of getting our goods to a small and
spread out country, you're always going to make our goods
(06:13):
a little bit pricey.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think two answers to that. One is I don't
actually believe the Communist Commission on this one. You know,
they talk about excess profits of but I think four
hundred four hundred million a year. I believe it's vastly
more than that. You know, companies like this have unlimited
ways to actually disguise their profits, and I think we're
paying a lot more excess profit than that would suggest.
(06:39):
And you know, the other the other angle to that,
now I've lost my train of thought.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Was it was about, you know, the economics of being
a spread out country and there's only so many savings.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
You know. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, to to take
a bit of license or of language as you did.
That is a bull show that arguments just doesn't sex
this steck up. You know, we are a food bowl
to the world. We are a very very efficient producer
of all lines of food and we should be highly competitive.
So and you know, back in the day, we used
(07:11):
to produce probably the eighty percent of our grosser we
see it. I hate to think what the percentage is now.
So no, the argument that we're too isolated and we
have to pay a premium on world prices because we'll
stack up to the extent that it is true, that
is because the supermarkets have manipulators it that way.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So would you say that the biggest driver of the
high prices we're paying is the structure, the stew opolation.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Absolutely absolutely, the fact that there is no competition or
very limited competition at retail and that enables them to
make superprofits.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So what's how difficult will it be? Let's say that
the you know, the coalition, whatever happens in the election
in New Zealand first can get its wish and have
a crack at breakout the jew Oplan. It's got the
support of its partners. How easy or difficult? What sort
of time period do you reckon it would take to
achieve what we're looking for.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It won't be and you know, believe me, there will
be a hundred drawyers working full time to make it
as difficult as possible. You know, looking back to the
telecom days, it basically took the best part of a decade.
But you know, there were there were increments along the way.
You'd make you know, take three steps forward, two steps back,
(08:26):
and all of a sudden things were a little bit better.
So you gradually make a bit of headway and then
all of a sudden, you know, eight or ten years later,
you get the big breakthrough. It will be a long process,
but you know, the interesting thing with telecom there was
a moment in time where they suddenly woke up to
the fact that they couldn't stop this movement, but it
was too strong that it was going to happen, and
(08:47):
then they rolled over.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Is that the sort of the poster child for a
breakup is what we were paying for telecom now and
what we've got these days.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Fact well, I think it proves that it can be done.
And you know, these things are notoriously difficult all around
the world, and as I say, the two industries were
very different. But it does show that in a small
country like this you can actually if you approach these
things systematically and logically and with the writing and goal
(09:18):
in site, you can actually make them happen, and I.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Believe we can because it has appeared that Nichola Wellis
really has to I know, we possibly might beginning to
repeat yourself, but she seemed pretty serious about trying to
do something about it, and all of a sudden, just
you know, nothing's really happened.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So exactly that's exactly the year. And my my intuitive
feeling is that the coalition pointed the finger at her
and said, no, you're not to do this. Okay. You know,
there's a lot of political donations go on, a lot
of a lot of behind the scenes stuff goes on,
and I think she basically lost heart on us. I mean,
(09:56):
I might be doing her an injustice, but I'd be
surprised to see you pick it up seriously again.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Now, well, unless there's an election result that sort of
pushes it that way. Well, you said you're not a
political animal. You're sure you haven't been tempted to pick
up the phone and sort of put your name on
the get on the hustings there.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Anie, I don't think i'd have the patience for that.
I actually like to see things happen, but no, I mean,
it is a political problem, but it simply requires the
determination of the politicians to see it through. And at
the end of the day, this thing will happen because
(10:33):
of public pressure. You know, politicians are torn between the
big businesses, the little businesses and the consumers and try
and satisfy everyone. And what's going to happen here is
the consumers have got to stand up and say we've
had enough. We want a proper competitive supermarket industry in
this country.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Good stuff. Hey, thanks, Ernie, really appreciate your time, Stapening,
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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