March 1, 2026 • 41 mins
Ethical investing seems to be a hot topic when it comes to choosing an investment fund or KiwiSaver provider.
I've often heard providers boast that their fund is ethical - they avoid weapons manufacturers, focus on renewable and sustainable energy - you won't feel a possible sense of guilt around where your money is going.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
I just I just pray first, I'll just say that
(00:40):
your face got me.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And welcome back to smart Well, the Weekend Collective, and
this is smart Money fascinating. We've had some fascinating chats
this this afternoon, not just the beginning beginning of course
with the politics side of things, where we had a
chat with with Jeffrey Miller about the situation in the
arm which is ongoing of course and developing. We're keeping
up to d now Newsom. We're working hard on that.
(01:04):
But also Davel tell you that the question around motivating
yourself to make those changes that you you know, it's
the high time you made. So if you miss any
of the hours and you want to catch up with them,
then do after after shows of it. Just go and
check out our podcast at Newstalks. He'd be or iHeartRadio.
But right now this is smart Money and we want
to well one, we invite your calls. We want you
(01:26):
to join the conversation at eight hundred and eighty ten eighty,
but also text nine two nine two. And what we
want to dig into is the question around ethical investing,
which is well it's sort of constantly a hot topic
about where your money goes into and what sort of
investments are you are you happy to support? And you
(01:46):
know you often might here providers talk about or boasting
that their fund is ethical, you know, avoiding weapons manufacturer
or focusing on renewable and sustainable energy so you don't
feel that sense of guilt around where your money is going.
But maybe that does that virtue signaling sometimes have a cost?
Does it do you have to pay to be an
ethical investor? Or is it just the smart choice? Because
(02:09):
ethical investing is the sort of place the way the
world's going, so you you're going to make money. I
must say I always am a bit cynical about things
that you know that say you know we're ethical investing,
because I'll give you a crude example before we introduce
in fact, no, I'll bring them in right now, and
then I'll make my crude, crappy point with Martin Hawes,
(02:30):
he's author of it. I keep losing count Martin, how
many bucks? Twenty three, twenty four, twenty five, twenty six,
twenty seven, twenty four, twenty four.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
That's right, and it hasn't changed since we last.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
No, I know but I've got I've got twenty something
in my mind. I've got a so okayla. Firstly, before
I make my my crude point, I don't mean rude
and crude, I just mean a blunt sort of argument,
what's yours? What's your take and stance on ethical investing
when it comes to either advising people or your own money.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I'm very keen on socially responsible investment as we used
to call it. If you look at the really brief
history of it and you go back, say twenty or
twenty five years was a man called doctor Roger Spiller,
and he was about the only one in New Zealand
who talked about it. I did a little bit, and
there were one or two others who did a little
bit as well. But it was called socially responsible investing then,
(03:29):
and it was about exclusions the things that I'm not
going to have in a portfolio, so like tobacco, perhaps
in gambling and those kinds of things. In about eight
or ten years ago, quite suddenly this new take on
it called ESG Environmental, Social and Governance sort of it
(03:49):
almost boosts on the scene, and it came at it
from a different angle, and it was really not saying
so much of what you were going to exclude in
your portfolio, but what you were going to include about it.
And what ESG tries to do for us to do
is look at companies from an environmental, a social, and
(04:11):
a governance point of view and say, are these are
these businesses likely to be sustainable? Are they like to
be to be young, resilient? And it was therefore, and
research houses and so forth like morning Star and so
forth started giving scores for EESG, and really what they
(04:34):
were saying is that if you invest in these companies,
they're more likely to be sustainable, they'll last longer, and
therefore they'll probably give you more profits, and they'll be
very really good around risk management as well. I personally
exclude stuff I don't virtue virtue signal, but some people do.
(04:58):
I'm quite quite sure it's and it puts in the conversation.
And I mean, I don't manage my money, and more
so I'm not actually making the decision. But if I
lock down my portfol er and saw something that British
American tobacco, for example, I wouldn't want that.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sorry, that's an easy one around. I do I feel
that even though what I'm going to say might be
more controversial. Tobacco is an easy one, I think, isn't it, Because.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I think so, Yeah, i'd say gamblingers too.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yes, bingo number two. Okay, we'll do a list of
what we can exclude. I'm with you on the gambling
and the tobacco. I mean, what if you're making a
return of twenty percent or twenty five percent on something?
Do you rule it out all the time? Well, you
know that's question. Everyone has a price.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, let's say you were getting twenty percent. You could
take five percent of that and give it away. I
suppose to some of the people who are damaged make donations.
I don't know, I personally, you know, I'm looking at
at the extreme end of the spectrum. I personally would
not have a tobacco. This is one that's I think
(06:06):
really interesting at the moment because I've always been slightly
opposed to armaments. But I'd have to say now given
the world to geo of politics, that I am keen
on armaments and thinking that New Zealand and pretty much
all liberal democracies are going to need to arm up.
(06:27):
You've still because the best way of having peace is
too is to be strong.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well that's that's actually one of the ones I was
going to you've stole then a thunder because because that
is no, no, no, that's great. But those are the
ones where I think you can imagine someone it's a
bit of a virtue sing the luck. I won't invest
in armaments companies and things like that, but I think
in fact, I only thought of this as I was
(06:54):
talking before, but I just remembered because there's the question
about that. I said to my producer Tira, I said,
you know what, if there was an arms factory starting
up and it was going to be building armaments, for instance,
if it was going to be selling to the Russians, Okay,
I've got a problem with that. But if it was
going to be helping Ukraine defend itself, then I'm all in.
(07:18):
If it was profitable, and I think that's the thing
people think, oh armaments war bad. Therefore I'm keeping out
of it. But in fact, I we just did a
quick bit of research just now I got tired to
have a look into it. So I did remember that
there are some New Zealand companies who are doing some
work with drones and drones you know, key we drones
(07:40):
which are boosting our defense capabilities, and I think they
may even I can't remember, but I think I saw
something in connection with you know, the work we were
doing with drones with the helping Ukrainians, And to me,
that's an ethical use of something that we'd rather we
didn't have to use, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, I really completely agree with that. Now. There are
some armaments I wouldn't want to invest in, like cluster
bombs for example, which and various other things where Geneva
convention well stamp on them and so forth. But I
think it's actually a good thing now to invest in
(08:19):
armaments in the liberal democracies because I think as long
as we're strong, we won't have war. It's wween we
look weak and not look like we're not investing in
these things that we are going down for war.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Actually, it's funny. I was almost going to say, am
I surprised that you've said that, because I didn't actually
know where you'd come from on this, But I didn't
think you'd bring it up so quickly Because the world
is a complex place. So for instance, solar panels, green
energy or you know, investing in Tesla or on the
face of it. You can say, yes, I'm into that
(08:57):
because they're green technologies, but you know, I think we
I think the reason I wanted to bring it up
was because I think you end up chasing your tailor
bit on anything ethical, because as human beings, we utilize
the planet's resources. You know, we eat meat, we you know,
we we farm, we we harvest rare, earth minerals, you know,
(09:18):
to to run our cell phones and our and our
electric cars. It is there is just one big sliding scale,
isn't it. And it is an interesting question as to
where you draw the line. I think you've made some
really easy ones, an't you tobacco? Okay, cluster bombs, you know,
things that are against the Geneva convention. Okay, we're out. But
(09:40):
the whole green thing is not as straightforward, is it.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
No? And don't forget that if you look at it
from an e SG point of view. The ESG just
remind people that sorry, environment, social and governance. So environment
in the terms of the what proNT the carbon footprint
or the environmental foot print that the company has, Social
in terms of how well does it look after it
(10:04):
some ees, its customers, its community governance in terms of
as the board diverse. You know, do they do their
audits properly, do they pay their staff properly, and so forth.
So if you look at the solar panel if we
looked at one of the companies that we're making solar panels,
yes they might say, you know, invest in us because
(10:25):
you're doing good in the world. But they might be
a lousy company in terms of ESG. They may be
in fact have they may have a huge carbon footprint.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Well, they might have slave labor digging them.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
They may have exactly they could easily have that. So
you've got to be very very careful with this. On
the other hand, somebody making lovely soap in an environmental
way could be exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, sort of lavender and olive, sort of tree sampled
soap or something. And yet the conditions people, that is
an interesting one. But because we would love your cause
on this as to actually one, how much do you
care about this stuff? Would you just give you money?
I imagine there are rules around the KEI WE save
providers that that's just a box. You couldn't For instance,
(11:16):
I don't know if a key we Saver fund could
invest in armaments manufacturer or in tobacco. Do we know
if there are rules around that that there's a certain
primer fac see sort of exclusions.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, each fund will have their own policies, and they
virtually all. I can't think of anybody now who doesn't
have any SG policy, and I can't think of one
who would knowingly invest in tobacco.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We would any of them knowingly invest in a drone
manufacturing outfit that supports defense against Russia.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I don't know. You see, that might be of the
key we save for providers that might be quite controversial
in there. They might have a lot of discussion on
this and try to figure it out. But that have
to look that have to go back to their ESG
policy and see what they were see what they were
allowed to include, and what they were allowed and what
they had to exclude.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Here's a more tricky one. And look, I'm not going
to get on my high horse, but maybe I will
get on my high horse just for fun. I really
think that. And I've had plenty of discussions on recently
and the parenting squad with a great guest we had
because called Maniche Diva, who was telling us about the
scientific knowledge that we're accumulating about the damages of social media,
(12:32):
and so a lot of people invest in companies like
Meta and Facebook and instant you know that have Facebook,
Instagram and YouTube and things. I mean, in fact, I
think Ricky Gervais famously made a comment at the Golden
Globes about Apple, saying, you know, you're a company that
were on sweatshops in China. You know, if Isis started,
(12:53):
if Isis started a studio, you'd call your agent. But
I mean, some of these, some of these companies that
are part of our lives. We have Apple phones and
all sorts of you know, And yet do we know
how well do we know how well the ees g
you know, the ethical side of things are actually how
(13:14):
vigorous or reliable are those status as that status that's
allocated companies? God, I've put that clumsily. I was all
over the place there, Martin.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Sorry, I was going to rescue you and I didn't.
I've got Meta in my portfolio. You can keep playing
catch your tail on some other stuff. So, for example,
we might not want to invest in banks because we
think banks are now banks aren't, at least say, banks
(13:46):
were something something that we thought undesirable. So and we
don't invest in that company, But would we invest in
another company which owns a bank and you can keep
(14:06):
on you can keep on going with it. So the
SPAD company use their power supplier. So do we exclude
the the do we exclude Meridian who supplies them with electricity?
Do we exclude then the bank that provides them banking services?
You know you can well, actually, how how how?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
How? How many steps removed? Yeah, that's right. Do you
look at you know, it's not like, yes, I know
what you mean. It's just how many steps do you
look at the actual company or do you look at
everyone who does business with them? To me, that would
be a stretch. Actually, for instance, if you had a
munitions manufacturer that that manufactured equipment that was in controversial
(14:52):
con contravention of the Geneva convention, I think it would
be a bit of a reach if you found out
that in Nvidia was supply supplying the chips for some
of the technology I mean against other people mutely well,
you know, bones connected to the thigh bone.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Although Donald Trump's doing that now with Anthropic. Anthropic have
been thrown out as being a provider to the military,
and Trump has also said so they can't do that,
and then what they can't provide services to the military. But
Trump is saying also, and no company that supplies or
(15:31):
deals with anthropic will be able to what's.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Actually remind me about what I actually tell you what.
We'll take a call, we'll dig into that a bit more.
But well, we'll get a call off and we'll come
back with that one, Martin, because that's yeah, I think
we want to dig into that a bit more. But
we've got a caller who's been holding a little while,
so we'll get on to Colin. Gooday, here you going.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, gooday, gooday, lads. I was just driving along and
I was listening to you comment about ethical investment, and
you were talking about the arms industry and that type
of thing, and I was gobsmacked with your comments to
the extent that I agreed with them more one hundred
percent and.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So pleased.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
You know, so please you guys put it on radio.
It's just brilliant.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Mate. A racing myself, Colin, I thought, here we go,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
He's coming on off a long runner.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Yeah, well, funny you should say that, because I think
your producer was a little bit angst when I first
used that word, so I approached her the same way. God, look, look,
it's absolutely brilliant. Where are liberal democracies? There was absolutely
no doubt in our mind that we have to defend ourselves.
It's all right. Do I mention Halen Clark who said
(16:47):
then we shouldn't get involved in geopolitical matters, But there's
a logical follow on to that that she didn't adopt,
which was okay, so we're not meant to get involved,
but can we ally ourselves with other liberal democracies like
Australia and Canada and maybe link our forces in with that,
(17:07):
or in the alternative, become completely independent like Switzerland compulsory
military training and we need an amen and air force
and a navy. So to me, we've just got to
get involved. And if we.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
It's a broader question than where we put out money,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Well yeah, well that was the other thing I was
going to say, lads, that that does annoy me about
those who criticize where we invest. We live in a
free democracy. There's nothing to stop the group that criticize
where we invest from starting their own allegedly good investment
(17:45):
and you know, enrolling the Can we save and say, hey,
we've started our own investment company. These are the companies
we invested in. Why don't you come with us, and
then we'll be able to see whether we get the
same return as what they get from mind.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Do you would you as an investor, Colin would where
would you draw the line on? Of course, you know,
while you said you agreed whodheartedly with us, I just
wanted to check. So you know, we're talking about armaments,
and there's a good cause for investing, there's a good
case for investing in those. But where do you draw
the line? So Martin mentioned tobacco and what was the
(18:17):
other thing? There was some other thing, Martin, I can't remember.
It was gambling, that's the one.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, well I'm sorry, go on, yes, yeah, there
you go.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That's my question.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
So, Mike, I trust my Kiwi Saver. So I've got
virtually all my investments in a Kiwi Saver. I wouldn't
pull I wouldn't take say five ten thousand out, and
there's no way to go into a to a tobacco
company or a gambling company or anything like that. I
(18:47):
would trust my Keiw saver. They do disclose where it's invested.
I haven't looked any further than that. But having said
all that, I can say that the earnings I get
from that and the super I do use for environmental
work personally okay. So it's a kind of a feel good.
(19:08):
So if there's something wrong there, I'm not too worried
because I use that money to save forest ecosystems and
trap and that type of thing. So I'm comfortable I
use that.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Actually, Colin, you know you've You've said something. I'd be
curious to know if other people have thought about this.
But to me, Colin might be a rarity when he
says that he's actually had a look to see who
his KEIWI save a fund investment. I reckon most keywis
go do I want the safe conservative one? I want
average risk balance. You might want to go high risk
and they I'm one of them. I wouldn't have a
(19:38):
clue where my money is.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yes, they will live an ESG policy and you know
that would be that make that available to you if
it wasn't and blazon on the on the website, Colin.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Sorry, how no you go? Martin? You've got something for Colin?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Well, I was I was about to bring another one
where I think the ball is on the line line,
and that's alcohol. No alcohol does an awful lot of damage.
But the same time I've been known to use it.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Well, actually, ok I look, mate, I was throwing something
out there we see to be slightly divergent. But I
don't mind doing that, Okay, I alcohol. Okay, So I'm
seventy five. I've knocked off all alcohol. I've knocked off
all processed food, and I'm trying to live as long
as possible. And I've noticed the massive difference in I
(20:34):
can only say in my gut and how I function
and how I wake up in the morning by not
having two glasses of wine at nighttime. But having said that,
there are people who love their red wine and do
that type of thing. And that's so nice to me
an environmental business that that I'm comfortable with, not that
(20:54):
my feeling is any way.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
This is what we're here for, Colin, for people to
share their thoughts on where they're investors. As you say,
there's you know, Martin was saying alcohol, and yet we
do consume it. And yet when you say, well, would
you like to invest in this vineyard which is exporting
wide around the world, and it's got a lovely semone
on blanc that feels ethically aokay, then would you like to,
you know, invest in this spirits manufacturer selling the cheapest,
(21:20):
most powerful thing in the targeting teenagers. I mean that
does feel a difference, doesn't that?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yeah? But Tim, it's still selling poison. Alcohol is a poison,
and it can be a nice vineyard in Marlborough or wherever. Now,
I personally would invest in it because you would have it.
Not well, I use it, say I don't use it.
I'm seventy seventy three, Colin, and my alcohol consumption has
(21:48):
plummetled over the last half a ten years, but I
still do use it, and it would be hypocritical for
me not to invest in.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
It's interesting, interesting, isn't it interesting? Just while we digress
on language there, Colin and Martin, that you said I
still use alcohol, because that makes it sound like I
mean you are using in the context it's a drug
that's not good for you, as opposed to I still,
you know, enjoy a seven yard blanc of an evening.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
We could get ourselves into a hole here, and I've
got to be careful. But here's another thought, mate, When
I was a So I was a professional at one stage.
It doesn't matter whether it's a doctor or an accounted
or a lawyer. I was one of those, and I
used to have a strip. I used to normally go
home at nighttime and I'd have what I would call
chemical relief. I'd put a single gin down on it
(22:40):
and I'll put it into an empty stomach and I'd feel, oh, yeah,
this is good, and then the wife would only see
me sing my second gin. Okay, So I agree with you.
It's a poison, but I call it chemical relief, and
we've just got to be careful there. We use it, mate,
That's all.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
I enjoyed your call, Thanks very much. Cool Again. I
did want to actually try and take a stab at
whether he was a lawyer, an accountant or a doctor.
But I'm thinking of the gift of the gab there.
He might have been a lawyer, but you know.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I thought a doctor.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
We talked about his gup by ome Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Okay, No, okay, let's go with doctor. Okay. Then it's
just a question of specialty. Anyway. Hey, look, God, I've
gone well past the lot of our for for taking
a break. I love your cause or text on this
on ethical investing, And actually, I think here's a simple question.
Ethics might matter to you, but we're all most of
(23:34):
us are all investors in key We Saber. Do you
just trust? And this is not there's no news flashing
news about kee We Saber. We're about the ethics. But
do you just trust Kiwi Saber to be making good
investments for you from a financial point of view and
you just trust them? Well, I'm assuming they're not investing
in anything dodgy because I just assume it. But I've
never looked it up. Colin at least has. I imagine Martin,
(23:58):
having written twenty four books, has has looked in for
these things as well, But I haven't. The only thing
I looked at is I thought I'd need to go
more aggressive, so it went more aggressive? Or where you go, oh,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty How important are the ethics
of your investments, whether you be an active investor or
someone who simply is investing because you've got a key
We Saver fund, it's got well, we're well passed. Are
(24:21):
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Speaker 1 (25:21):
Parentech, Property, politics plus Money, Health and the week's debates.
It's all on the Weekend Collective with Tim Beverage News
Talk Zeb.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yes, we're talking about ethical investing and the whole shebang
with Martin Hawes and Martin, I want to go back
to that comment you made about Anthropic and I've lost
the threat of tell us what the US government has
got the pit with Anthropic and doesn't want it anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
You tell me they were providing AI services to the military,
and Topics said, yeah, we'll carry on doing that, but
we don't want our our AI to be used for
autonoma strons. And the military turned round and said, well, no,
(26:09):
you can't do that, and we're not going to abuide
by that. You're either only well you're out, and Trump
got a yeah that was and I said, okay, well
then you're out. You know, you can't provide services to
the military, which was a major one, and then he
(26:32):
added to that, and any of your suppliers. It wasn't
that they couldn't work for the military. It was something
else that they couldn't do, and I can't quite remember
what it was, but they were being penalized, you know,
the supplies of Anthropic, the supplies to Anthropic were being
penalized as well.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
So that's the irony there is. That was a company
who people might invest in, but that company was trying
to make an ethical decision about how they wanted their
AI used, and possibly, I mean, given that they were
providing that AI, maybe they were aware of the flaws
that you might have been involved if it was to
do with autonomous drones.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about socially responsible investment. But
you know, you see this in small medium sized businesses
a lot that you know, somebody will say, well, I'm
not going to provide my product to that particular entity
because I don't like what they do, or I don't
like her, or I don't like her or whatever. So
(27:31):
you know this does spread beyond ethical investment. I should
say also that there are keep you say, for funds
which have as one of their primary marketing points, have
socially responsible investment investing right at the front. I won't
(27:54):
mention names. And I also noticed the latest Morning Star
or reports I think had the number one performing let
us return was actually an ethical So there are some
or that they'll say ABC Limited and it's their ethical fund.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay, yep, Yeah, Well that's good news because most people
think if I'm going to go ethics, there's going to
be a price to pay.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Well, you'd normally think that over a long periods of time,
because if you decrease the universe, as it's called, if
you do decrease the total number of companies that you
can invest in, you'd expect your returns to be low
because you don't have the same options that somebody else had.
But actually my theory is that over the last two years,
(28:49):
ethical investment has probably given superior returns because there's a
certain amount of money that is looking for that they're
looking for ethical investments, and that's driving up the price
of the investments. And I would also say probably that
with the ESG Environmental Social Governance ratings research houses giving
(29:15):
companies a rating on the on the ESG, those that
are scoring highly, it would be easier to sell your
fund that if you had a lot of companies that
are very high ESG rate now, so that probably drives
the price up as well.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I'm not sure that somebody has said that the share
market if you if you're not into investing in gamblings,
but the share market is a gamble, well that's just
a cheap throwaway remark, which is mildly provocative. But what
was your art to be to that? Because I mean Ultimately,
all investing is risky. Is it a gamble though, Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That's that's the right word. It's a risk. But the
share market is not a gamble where you are certain
if you stay with the if you stay with gambling,
the tab or one of these, you are certain to
lose money.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, there are factual influences in your investment as opposed
to the role of the dice.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
You know, well, it's not a zero sum game. They
take seven percent or ten percent or whatever it is
as profit and to pay for their costs and so forth,
and they pay the rest out by way of of
the of gambling. You know, you're therefore bound to lose
money if you do it for long enough. Share market,
(30:36):
on the other hand, you're actually all you are doing
is buying businesses. And if you come at it from
the point of view that I buy a whole bunch
of different businesses, they're not all going to go broke. Yes,
there is risk involved. You use the right word. It's risky, risky,
but it's not. It's not it's not gambling, and it's
(30:56):
only risky in the sense that the market will go
up and the market will go down, so there'll be volatility,
but it's unlikely as well as you will diversified, it's
unlikely they're all going to go broke if they are
your key resavers. You know, every company and your key
receaver when bankrupt, the least your worries is your key resaver.
(31:19):
Something really bad has happened in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, well be on the headlines today. We'll get into
that in the moment maybe, but we want to talk
to you about if you'd like to join us, we'd
love to have your calls on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty about ethical investing. And look, the simple question
if you haven't thought about it too much is have
you actually thought about it with your keiisaver? Is it
something you just trust them to do well I do
(31:43):
to be honest naively or not? But also are there
is there a line where you would or wouldn't draw
where your money was going to go when it came
to ethical investing. It is nineteen minutes to six News
talk sa'd b Yes with Martin r. Was talking about
ethical investing and the importance of your investments spending being
into companies that behave in an ethical manner, whether it
be and this is not just about arms, gambling. It's
(32:06):
about governance, how workforces are treated, the social side of things,
environmental impacts. Yeah, and do you look into your key
we saver companies A few texts here, Martin Martin Hawes. Well,
this is just a comment from Tony. Probably, I don't
know if it's as much to comment on, but she
Tony just says, Tim, I'm a late comer to the
investment game. I don't care when my money is being
(32:27):
invested in it to make as much as I can
for the time that I have left. I reckon Okay,
we'll have to take that at face value. But you know,
if you're making money out of child slave labor, then
pornography would be another one you might want to rule
yourself out of.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yeah, that slave labor one is interesting because Nike got
into all sorts of trouble about twenty years ago and
they were paying people a dollar a day or something
minuscule in Indonesia, I think to make these shoes now,
not only from an investment point of view, but the
sale of their product point of view. They took a
(33:08):
really big hit on that because they were just seen
as a as a nasty company and they had been,
you know, that being kind of right up there as
a good company for ages. But I don't know if
they still recovered on that. I knew people who wouldn't
touch these shoes.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I just I don't know. I don't want to be
a hypocrite, but I'm not sure if I've got Nike
or not. But I might have. Yeah, no, no, I don't.
That's right. Definitely new balance. That's what the end stands for. Actually,
somebody's listening says, I have a nephew working for the
drone company you mentioned. Well, I didn't actually mention the
specific drone company, just wanted to steer clear of exactly
what they're doing. But anyway, this person says, I'm absolutely
(33:49):
delighted about it. Certainly i'd invested them. That was that is.
I think that's, you know, a very interesting and amazing
story about how New Zealand technology companies are building drones.
Are doing amazing stuff, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, yes, yep, yep. Those stones may get used for
fishery patrol or something like that. You know, we've we've
got a huge amount of ocean around New Zealand which
we have to patrol and so forth and such surveyal
for fishery purposes. You know you can send drones out
that they not only carrying bombs.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, hey, somebody is that Now this one invites an
interesting question here says don't invest in greedy Aussie banks,
invest in New Zealand. And I think it's the second
part of that people, because you know, the government wants
us to invest in New Zealand companies. And I mean
there will be people who would invest in New Zealand
(34:45):
because we want to build a productive economy. But I think,
to be honest, I think that when it comes to
if it's going to sacrifice your returns, it's a luxury
for people who going to afford a lower return. But
what do you feel about local versus international?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I'm an internationalist. I'm a globalist. I like the idea
that we've got communications and technology now that mean that
we can communicate together. And it's like we've been seventy
thousand years ago. We came out of Africa and we
scattered right over the whole planet and so forth, and
we've all of a suddenly been able to get back
(35:21):
in touch with each other. What have you been doing
for the last seventy thousand years while we revolve, and
I love that, So I don't get too tied up
with the fact that the four majors are Ossie banks.
What I would say is that they have something like
ten billion dollars profit amongst them, which seems to me extraordinary.
(35:44):
My response to that as well, If you think it's
such a huge prop profit, gum buy them because you
can just buy their shares on the SHEPST and own
part of them, but also be very careful about getting
so critical of them that we either drive them away
or drive them to be sold, and that sort of.
(36:05):
We're very, very fortunate to have a stable banking system,
because without a stable banking system, you don't have an economy.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Actually, that did lead to something I had where were
possibly going to talk about, which was just the whole
cash thing and the Reserve Bank governor saying that they
wanted to the Reserve Bank wants the well, sorry, the
Reserve Bank governor didn't say this, but the Reserve Bank
as an institution have said they want the banks to
have more ATMs and branches and to be able to
(36:35):
enable people to deal with cash and all that sort
of thing. Did you. I was surprised to see that announcement.
To be honest, Martin, but what did you make of it?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, I didn't know. They've been beavering away in the
bowels of the Reserve Bank now trying to figure this out,
and they've obviously pushed quite hard at the banks, saying,
you know, we really want you to make sure that
you have banks or branches or ability for people to
get cash out in the communities and in small areas.
(37:04):
It's getting hard and harder to find even a lowly
cash machine.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Well, they've got a points, haven't they, the Reserve Bank,
because it does feel they it does feel the banks
have contracted those services so much as to create a
fader complete that we all have to use the plastic yep.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And they are saying to the banks quite explicitly, this
is your cost. You know, if you want to do
business in New Zealand, you have to do business in
all of New Zealand, including out in the country, and
you've got to have places where people can get cash
because you know, I've started using cash more because I've
got so worried about the phone I carry around, you know,
(37:40):
so I don't I don't carry the phone absolutely everywhere
I go now and sometimes I just have a few
banknotes and that's really the first time in probably fifteen
or years probably that I've been been using cash. You
get a bit of a frown from a lot of retailer.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They hate because they can't bank it these easily.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
It's expensive and it's expensive the banks too. But the
Reserve Bank is simply saying that they've closed for their
branches over the last ten years. They are saying, this
is your costs. You've got to do business and you
can't just cherry pick the one bits that you want
to do, and you've got to pay for this and
(38:26):
to have you've got to pay for having more sites
where people can get cash.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Actually, just on that, What is the mechanism that enables
the Reserve Bank to say this is what we're asking
and this is what you're going to do. Ultimately, what authority,
how do they implement that? Is that part of the
licensing conditions for the banks or something or what?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Probably, yes, they look after the banks. The banks are
answerable answerable to the Reserve Bank. Financial stability is one
of the remits of the Reserve Bank, So they can
they say this, I think the banks would have to
(39:09):
do it if they are saying it, but you know,
there's a compliance thing going on here. I'm not sure
exactly what's in the remap.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I wonder how much of it. I wonder how much
of that can be sheeted back to the new Reserve
Bank governor. Would be interesting to see if there's a
scan and Avian influence in that policy.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I think it goes back. Whether I think it goes back,
there's been somebody deputy governor or a governor, maybe a governor,
but go yeah, no it's not I think he's gone.
But it's somebody who sound like you'd been working on
this for a month or two or three.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Okay, right, well, hey, look what time is rushing? Pie?
We'll be back in just a seconds, eight minutes to
six News Talk because it'd be Yes News Talks. They'd
be Tim Beverage with Martin Hawes. Just a quick last question,
a minute or so to go, Martin. I should have
asked this a little while ago, just because people have
got money. Investor would be concerned about what we're seeing
with the run and things to you, I mean the
ships when it comes to choices around investments sale. As
(40:08):
soon as the first missiles are launched. But are you
worried about you know, what's going on with the new
cycle and the effect on our economy.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yes, i am. I'm really worried how this is going
to play out. I listened to a podcast today about
the scattered nature of Iran. I'd always thought Iran was
full of Persians and that was about it. But there
are I think something like fourteen or sixteen different nations,
and there there are Kurds, there are Arabs or blue
(40:39):
Cheese and so forth, and almost all of them are
armed to some extent or other. So if they're looking
for regime change, it's or very well to say, well
this the son of the son of the shark and
just come on back. These people may not want them now,
even if the Persians want them, the others may not.
May turn into a hall of them mess.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yet Yeah, oh well, again, as I've said it, the
politics our fingers crossed. Hey, great Martin, Great to see you.
Life's good for you down in christ Church.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yes all good, Thanks Tom, Good to see you.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Okay, and catch the podcast on News Talks AB or
Heart Radio and at Sunday out six Ers next.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Catch you soon for more from the weekend collective. Listen
live to News Talk z B weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
I just I just pray first, I'll just say that
(00:40):
your face got me.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And welcome back to smart Well, the Weekend Collective, and
this is smart Money fascinating. We've had some fascinating chats
this this afternoon, not just the beginning beginning of course
with the politics side of things, where we had a
chat with with Jeffrey Miller about the situation in the
arm which is ongoing of course and developing. We're keeping
up to d now Newsom. We're working hard on that.
(01:04):
But also Davel tell you that the question around motivating
yourself to make those changes that you you know, it's
the high time you made. So if you miss any
of the hours and you want to catch up with them,
then do after after shows of it. Just go and
check out our podcast at Newstalks. He'd be or iHeartRadio.
But right now this is smart Money and we want
to well one, we invite your calls. We want you
(01:26):
to join the conversation at eight hundred and eighty ten eighty,
but also text nine two nine two. And what we
want to dig into is the question around ethical investing,
which is well it's sort of constantly a hot topic
about where your money goes into and what sort of
investments are you are you happy to support? And you
(01:46):
know you often might here providers talk about or boasting
that their fund is ethical, you know, avoiding weapons manufacturer
or focusing on renewable and sustainable energy so you don't
feel that sense of guilt around where your money is going.
But maybe that does that virtue signaling sometimes have a cost?
Does it do you have to pay to be an
ethical investor? Or is it just the smart choice? Because
(02:09):
ethical investing is the sort of place the way the
world's going, so you you're going to make money. I
must say I always am a bit cynical about things
that you know that say you know we're ethical investing,
because I'll give you a crude example before we introduce
in fact, no, I'll bring them in right now, and
then I'll make my crude, crappy point with Martin Hawes,
(02:30):
he's author of it. I keep losing count Martin, how
many bucks? Twenty three, twenty four, twenty five, twenty six,
twenty seven, twenty four, twenty four.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
That's right, and it hasn't changed since we last.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
No, I know but I've got I've got twenty something
in my mind. I've got a so okayla. Firstly, before
I make my my crude point, I don't mean rude
and crude, I just mean a blunt sort of argument,
what's yours? What's your take and stance on ethical investing
when it comes to either advising people or your own money.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I'm very keen on socially responsible investment as we used
to call it. If you look at the really brief
history of it and you go back, say twenty or
twenty five years was a man called doctor Roger Spiller,
and he was about the only one in New Zealand
who talked about it. I did a little bit, and
there were one or two others who did a little
bit as well. But it was called socially responsible investing then,
(03:29):
and it was about exclusions the things that I'm not
going to have in a portfolio, so like tobacco, perhaps
in gambling and those kinds of things. In about eight
or ten years ago, quite suddenly this new take on
it called ESG Environmental, Social and Governance sort of it
(03:49):
almost boosts on the scene, and it came at it
from a different angle, and it was really not saying
so much of what you were going to exclude in
your portfolio, but what you were going to include about it.
And what ESG tries to do for us to do
is look at companies from an environmental, a social, and
(04:11):
a governance point of view and say, are these are
these businesses likely to be sustainable? Are they like to
be to be young, resilient? And it was therefore, and
research houses and so forth like morning Star and so
forth started giving scores for EESG, and really what they
(04:34):
were saying is that if you invest in these companies,
they're more likely to be sustainable, they'll last longer, and
therefore they'll probably give you more profits, and they'll be
very really good around risk management as well. I personally
exclude stuff I don't virtue virtue signal, but some people do.
(04:58):
I'm quite quite sure it's and it puts in the conversation.
And I mean, I don't manage my money, and more
so I'm not actually making the decision. But if I
lock down my portfol er and saw something that British
American tobacco, for example, I wouldn't want that.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sorry, that's an easy one around. I do I feel
that even though what I'm going to say might be
more controversial. Tobacco is an easy one, I think, isn't it, Because.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I think so, Yeah, i'd say gamblingers too.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yes, bingo number two. Okay, we'll do a list of
what we can exclude. I'm with you on the gambling
and the tobacco. I mean, what if you're making a
return of twenty percent or twenty five percent on something?
Do you rule it out all the time? Well, you
know that's question. Everyone has a price.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Yeah, let's say you were getting twenty percent. You could
take five percent of that and give it away. I
suppose to some of the people who are damaged make donations.
I don't know, I personally, you know, I'm looking at
at the extreme end of the spectrum. I personally would
not have a tobacco. This is one that's I think
(06:06):
really interesting at the moment because I've always been slightly
opposed to armaments. But I'd have to say now given
the world to geo of politics, that I am keen
on armaments and thinking that New Zealand and pretty much
all liberal democracies are going to need to arm up.
(06:27):
You've still because the best way of having peace is
too is to be strong.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well that's that's actually one of the ones I was
going to you've stole then a thunder because because that
is no, no, no, that's great. But those are the
ones where I think you can imagine someone it's a
bit of a virtue sing the luck. I won't invest
in armaments companies and things like that, but I think
in fact, I only thought of this as I was
(06:54):
talking before, but I just remembered because there's the question
about that. I said to my producer Tira, I said,
you know what, if there was an arms factory starting
up and it was going to be building armaments, for instance,
if it was going to be selling to the Russians, Okay,
I've got a problem with that. But if it was
going to be helping Ukraine defend itself, then I'm all in.
(07:18):
If it was profitable, and I think that's the thing
people think, oh armaments war bad. Therefore I'm keeping out
of it. But in fact, I we just did a
quick bit of research just now I got tired to
have a look into it. So I did remember that
there are some New Zealand companies who are doing some
work with drones and drones you know, key we drones
(07:40):
which are boosting our defense capabilities, and I think they
may even I can't remember, but I think I saw
something in connection with you know, the work we were
doing with drones with the helping Ukrainians, And to me,
that's an ethical use of something that we'd rather we
didn't have to use, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, I really completely agree with that. Now. There are
some armaments I wouldn't want to invest in, like cluster
bombs for example, which and various other things where Geneva
convention well stamp on them and so forth. But I
think it's actually a good thing now to invest in
(08:19):
armaments in the liberal democracies because I think as long
as we're strong, we won't have war. It's wween we
look weak and not look like we're not investing in
these things that we are going down for war.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Actually, it's funny. I was almost going to say, am
I surprised that you've said that, because I didn't actually
know where you'd come from on this, But I didn't
think you'd bring it up so quickly Because the world
is a complex place. So for instance, solar panels, green
energy or you know, investing in Tesla or on the
face of it. You can say, yes, I'm into that
(08:57):
because they're green technologies, but you know, I think we
I think the reason I wanted to bring it up
was because I think you end up chasing your tailor
bit on anything ethical, because as human beings, we utilize
the planet's resources. You know, we eat meat, we you know,
we we farm, we we harvest rare, earth minerals, you know,
(09:18):
to to run our cell phones and our and our
electric cars. It is there is just one big sliding scale,
isn't it. And it is an interesting question as to
where you draw the line. I think you've made some
really easy ones, an't you tobacco? Okay, cluster bombs, you know,
things that are against the Geneva convention. Okay, we're out. But
(09:40):
the whole green thing is not as straightforward, is it.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
No? And don't forget that if you look at it
from an e SG point of view. The ESG just
remind people that sorry, environment, social and governance. So environment
in the terms of the what proNT the carbon footprint
or the environmental foot print that the company has, Social
in terms of how well does it look after it
(10:04):
some ees, its customers, its community governance in terms of
as the board diverse. You know, do they do their
audits properly, do they pay their staff properly, and so forth.
So if you look at the solar panel if we
looked at one of the companies that we're making solar panels,
yes they might say, you know, invest in us because
(10:25):
you're doing good in the world. But they might be
a lousy company in terms of ESG. They may be
in fact have they may have a huge carbon footprint.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Well, they might have slave labor digging them.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
They may have exactly they could easily have that. So
you've got to be very very careful with this. On
the other hand, somebody making lovely soap in an environmental
way could be exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, sort of lavender and olive, sort of tree sampled
soap or something. And yet the conditions people, that is
an interesting one. But because we would love your cause
on this as to actually one, how much do you
care about this stuff? Would you just give you money?
I imagine there are rules around the KEI WE save
providers that that's just a box. You couldn't For instance,
(11:16):
I don't know if a key we Saver fund could
invest in armaments manufacturer or in tobacco. Do we know
if there are rules around that that there's a certain
primer fac see sort of exclusions.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, each fund will have their own policies, and they
virtually all. I can't think of anybody now who doesn't
have any SG policy, and I can't think of one
who would knowingly invest in tobacco.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We would any of them knowingly invest in a drone
manufacturing outfit that supports defense against Russia.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I don't know. You see, that might be of the
key we save for providers that might be quite controversial
in there. They might have a lot of discussion on
this and try to figure it out. But that have
to look that have to go back to their ESG
policy and see what they were see what they were
allowed to include, and what they were allowed and what
they had to exclude.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Here's a more tricky one. And look, I'm not going
to get on my high horse, but maybe I will
get on my high horse just for fun. I really
think that. And I've had plenty of discussions on recently
and the parenting squad with a great guest we had
because called Maniche Diva, who was telling us about the
scientific knowledge that we're accumulating about the damages of social media,
(12:32):
and so a lot of people invest in companies like
Meta and Facebook and instant you know that have Facebook,
Instagram and YouTube and things. I mean, in fact, I
think Ricky Gervais famously made a comment at the Golden
Globes about Apple, saying, you know, you're a company that
were on sweatshops in China. You know, if Isis started,
(12:53):
if Isis started a studio, you'd call your agent. But
I mean, some of these, some of these companies that
are part of our lives. We have Apple phones and
all sorts of you know, And yet do we know
how well do we know how well the ees g
you know, the ethical side of things are actually how
(13:14):
vigorous or reliable are those status as that status that's
allocated companies? God, I've put that clumsily. I was all
over the place there, Martin.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Sorry, I was going to rescue you and I didn't.
I've got Meta in my portfolio. You can keep playing
catch your tail on some other stuff. So, for example,
we might not want to invest in banks because we
think banks are now banks aren't, at least say, banks
(13:46):
were something something that we thought undesirable. So and we
don't invest in that company, But would we invest in
another company which owns a bank and you can keep
(14:06):
on you can keep on going with it. So the
SPAD company use their power supplier. So do we exclude
the the do we exclude Meridian who supplies them with electricity?
Do we exclude then the bank that provides them banking services?
You know you can well, actually, how how how?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
How? How many steps removed? Yeah, that's right. Do you
look at you know, it's not like, yes, I know
what you mean. It's just how many steps do you
look at the actual company or do you look at
everyone who does business with them? To me, that would
be a stretch. Actually, for instance, if you had a
munitions manufacturer that that manufactured equipment that was in controversial
(14:52):
con contravention of the Geneva convention, I think it would
be a bit of a reach if you found out
that in Nvidia was supply supplying the chips for some
of the technology I mean against other people mutely well,
you know, bones connected to the thigh bone.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Although Donald Trump's doing that now with Anthropic. Anthropic have
been thrown out as being a provider to the military,
and Trump has also said so they can't do that,
and then what they can't provide services to the military. But
Trump is saying also, and no company that supplies or
(15:31):
deals with anthropic will be able to what's.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Actually remind me about what I actually tell you what.
We'll take a call, we'll dig into that a bit more.
But well, we'll get a call off and we'll come
back with that one, Martin, because that's yeah, I think
we want to dig into that a bit more. But
we've got a caller who's been holding a little while,
so we'll get on to Colin. Gooday, here you going.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, gooday, gooday, lads. I was just driving along and
I was listening to you comment about ethical investment, and
you were talking about the arms industry and that type
of thing, and I was gobsmacked with your comments to
the extent that I agreed with them more one hundred
percent and.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So pleased.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
You know, so please you guys put it on radio.
It's just brilliant.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Mate. A racing myself, Colin, I thought, here we go,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
He's coming on off a long runner.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Yeah, well, funny you should say that, because I think
your producer was a little bit angst when I first
used that word, so I approached her the same way. God, look, look,
it's absolutely brilliant. Where are liberal democracies? There was absolutely
no doubt in our mind that we have to defend ourselves.
It's all right. Do I mention Halen Clark who said
(16:47):
then we shouldn't get involved in geopolitical matters, But there's
a logical follow on to that that she didn't adopt,
which was okay, so we're not meant to get involved,
but can we ally ourselves with other liberal democracies like
Australia and Canada and maybe link our forces in with that,
(17:07):
or in the alternative, become completely independent like Switzerland compulsory
military training and we need an amen and air force
and a navy. So to me, we've just got to
get involved. And if we.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
It's a broader question than where we put out money,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Well yeah, well that was the other thing I was
going to say, lads, that that does annoy me about
those who criticize where we invest. We live in a
free democracy. There's nothing to stop the group that criticize
where we invest from starting their own allegedly good investment
(17:45):
and you know, enrolling the Can we save and say, hey,
we've started our own investment company. These are the companies
we invested in. Why don't you come with us, and
then we'll be able to see whether we get the
same return as what they get from mind.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Do you would you as an investor, Colin would where
would you draw the line on? Of course, you know,
while you said you agreed whodheartedly with us, I just
wanted to check. So you know, we're talking about armaments,
and there's a good cause for investing, there's a good
case for investing in those. But where do you draw
the line? So Martin mentioned tobacco and what was the
(18:17):
other thing? There was some other thing, Martin, I can't remember.
It was gambling, that's the one.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, well I'm sorry, go on, yes, yeah, there
you go.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That's my question.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
So, Mike, I trust my Kiwi Saver. So I've got
virtually all my investments in a Kiwi Saver. I wouldn't
pull I wouldn't take say five ten thousand out, and
there's no way to go into a to a tobacco
company or a gambling company or anything like that. I
(18:47):
would trust my Keiw saver. They do disclose where it's invested.
I haven't looked any further than that. But having said
all that, I can say that the earnings I get
from that and the super I do use for environmental
work personally okay. So it's a kind of a feel good.
(19:08):
So if there's something wrong there, I'm not too worried
because I use that money to save forest ecosystems and
trap and that type of thing. So I'm comfortable I
use that.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Actually, Colin, you know you've You've said something. I'd be
curious to know if other people have thought about this.
But to me, Colin might be a rarity when he
says that he's actually had a look to see who
his KEIWI save a fund investment. I reckon most keywis
go do I want the safe conservative one? I want
average risk balance. You might want to go high risk
and they I'm one of them. I wouldn't have a
(19:38):
clue where my money is.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yes, they will live an ESG policy and you know
that would be that make that available to you if
it wasn't and blazon on the on the website, Colin.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Sorry, how no you go? Martin? You've got something for Colin?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Well, I was I was about to bring another one
where I think the ball is on the line line,
and that's alcohol. No alcohol does an awful lot of damage.
But the same time I've been known to use it.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Well, actually, ok I look, mate, I was throwing something
out there we see to be slightly divergent. But I
don't mind doing that, Okay, I alcohol. Okay, So I'm
seventy five. I've knocked off all alcohol. I've knocked off
all processed food, and I'm trying to live as long
as possible. And I've noticed the massive difference in I
(20:34):
can only say in my gut and how I function
and how I wake up in the morning by not
having two glasses of wine at nighttime. But having said that,
there are people who love their red wine and do
that type of thing. And that's so nice to me
an environmental business that that I'm comfortable with, not that
(20:54):
my feeling is any way.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
This is what we're here for, Colin, for people to
share their thoughts on where they're investors. As you say,
there's you know, Martin was saying alcohol, and yet we
do consume it. And yet when you say, well, would
you like to invest in this vineyard which is exporting
wide around the world, and it's got a lovely semone
on blanc that feels ethically aokay, then would you like to,
you know, invest in this spirits manufacturer selling the cheapest,
(21:20):
most powerful thing in the targeting teenagers. I mean that
does feel a difference, doesn't that?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yeah? But Tim, it's still selling poison. Alcohol is a poison,
and it can be a nice vineyard in Marlborough or wherever. Now,
I personally would invest in it because you would have it.
Not well, I use it, say I don't use it.
I'm seventy seventy three, Colin, and my alcohol consumption has
(21:48):
plummetled over the last half a ten years, but I
still do use it, and it would be hypocritical for
me not to invest in.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
It's interesting, interesting, isn't it interesting? Just while we digress
on language there, Colin and Martin, that you said I
still use alcohol, because that makes it sound like I
mean you are using in the context it's a drug
that's not good for you, as opposed to I still,
you know, enjoy a seven yard blanc of an evening.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
We could get ourselves into a hole here, and I've
got to be careful. But here's another thought, mate, When
I was a So I was a professional at one stage.
It doesn't matter whether it's a doctor or an accounted
or a lawyer. I was one of those, and I
used to have a strip. I used to normally go
home at nighttime and I'd have what I would call
chemical relief. I'd put a single gin down on it
(22:40):
and I'll put it into an empty stomach and I'd feel, oh, yeah,
this is good, and then the wife would only see
me sing my second gin. Okay, So I agree with you.
It's a poison, but I call it chemical relief, and
we've just got to be careful there. We use it, mate,
That's all.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
I enjoyed your call, Thanks very much. Cool Again. I
did want to actually try and take a stab at
whether he was a lawyer, an accountant or a doctor.
But I'm thinking of the gift of the gab there.
He might have been a lawyer, but you know.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I thought a doctor.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
We talked about his gup by ome Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Okay, No, okay, let's go with doctor. Okay. Then it's
just a question of specialty. Anyway. Hey, look, God, I've
gone well past the lot of our for for taking
a break. I love your cause or text on this
on ethical investing, And actually, I think here's a simple question.
Ethics might matter to you, but we're all most of
(23:34):
us are all investors in key We Saber. Do you
just trust? And this is not there's no news flashing
news about kee We Saber. We're about the ethics. But
do you just trust Kiwi Saber to be making good
investments for you from a financial point of view and
you just trust them? Well, I'm assuming they're not investing
in anything dodgy because I just assume it. But I've
never looked it up. Colin at least has. I imagine Martin,
(23:58):
having written twenty four books, has has looked in for
these things as well, But I haven't. The only thing
I looked at is I thought I'd need to go
more aggressive, so it went more aggressive? Or where you go, oh,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty How important are the ethics
of your investments, whether you be an active investor or
someone who simply is investing because you've got a key
We Saver fund, it's got well, we're well passed. Are
(24:21):
the allotted our for me to take this moment? So
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Speaker 1 (25:21):
Parentech, Property, politics plus Money, Health and the week's debates.
It's all on the Weekend Collective with Tim Beverage News
Talk Zeb.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yes, we're talking about ethical investing and the whole shebang
with Martin Hawes and Martin, I want to go back
to that comment you made about Anthropic and I've lost
the threat of tell us what the US government has
got the pit with Anthropic and doesn't want it anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
You tell me they were providing AI services to the military,
and Topics said, yeah, we'll carry on doing that, but
we don't want our our AI to be used for
autonoma strons. And the military turned round and said, well, no,
(26:09):
you can't do that, and we're not going to abuide
by that. You're either only well you're out, and Trump
got a yeah that was and I said, okay, well
then you're out. You know, you can't provide services to
the military, which was a major one, and then he
(26:32):
added to that, and any of your suppliers. It wasn't
that they couldn't work for the military. It was something
else that they couldn't do, and I can't quite remember
what it was, but they were being penalized, you know,
the supplies of Anthropic, the supplies to Anthropic were being
penalized as well.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
So that's the irony there is. That was a company
who people might invest in, but that company was trying
to make an ethical decision about how they wanted their
AI used, and possibly, I mean, given that they were
providing that AI, maybe they were aware of the flaws
that you might have been involved if it was to
do with autonomous drones.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about socially responsible investment. But
you know, you see this in small medium sized businesses
a lot that you know, somebody will say, well, I'm
not going to provide my product to that particular entity
because I don't like what they do, or I don't
like her, or I don't like her or whatever. So
(27:31):
you know this does spread beyond ethical investment. I should
say also that there are keep you say, for funds
which have as one of their primary marketing points, have
socially responsible investment investing right at the front. I won't
(27:54):
mention names. And I also noticed the latest Morning Star
or reports I think had the number one performing let
us return was actually an ethical So there are some
or that they'll say ABC Limited and it's their ethical fund.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay, yep, Yeah, Well that's good news because most people
think if I'm going to go ethics, there's going to
be a price to pay.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Well, you'd normally think that over a long periods of time,
because if you decrease the universe, as it's called, if
you do decrease the total number of companies that you
can invest in, you'd expect your returns to be low
because you don't have the same options that somebody else had.
But actually my theory is that over the last two years,
(28:49):
ethical investment has probably given superior returns because there's a
certain amount of money that is looking for that they're
looking for ethical investments, and that's driving up the price
of the investments. And I would also say probably that
with the ESG Environmental Social Governance ratings research houses giving
(29:15):
companies a rating on the on the ESG, those that
are scoring highly, it would be easier to sell your
fund that if you had a lot of companies that
are very high ESG rate now, so that probably drives
the price up as well.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I'm not sure that somebody has said that the share
market if you if you're not into investing in gamblings,
but the share market is a gamble, well that's just
a cheap throwaway remark, which is mildly provocative. But what
was your art to be to that? Because I mean Ultimately,
all investing is risky. Is it a gamble though, Yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That's that's the right word. It's a risk. But the
share market is not a gamble where you are certain
if you stay with the if you stay with gambling,
the tab or one of these, you are certain to
lose money.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, there are factual influences in your investment as opposed
to the role of the dice.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
You know, well, it's not a zero sum game. They
take seven percent or ten percent or whatever it is
as profit and to pay for their costs and so forth,
and they pay the rest out by way of of
the of gambling. You know, you're therefore bound to lose
money if you do it for long enough. Share market,
(30:36):
on the other hand, you're actually all you are doing
is buying businesses. And if you come at it from
the point of view that I buy a whole bunch
of different businesses, they're not all going to go broke. Yes,
there is risk involved. You use the right word. It's risky, risky,
but it's not. It's not it's not gambling, and it's
(30:56):
only risky in the sense that the market will go
up and the market will go down, so there'll be volatility,
but it's unlikely as well as you will diversified, it's
unlikely they're all going to go broke if they are
your key resavers. You know, every company and your key
receaver when bankrupt, the least your worries is your key resaver.
(31:19):
Something really bad has happened in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, well be on the headlines today. We'll get into
that in the moment maybe, but we want to talk
to you about if you'd like to join us, we'd
love to have your calls on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty about ethical investing. And look, the simple question
if you haven't thought about it too much is have
you actually thought about it with your keiisaver? Is it
something you just trust them to do well I do
(31:43):
to be honest naively or not? But also are there
is there a line where you would or wouldn't draw
where your money was going to go when it came
to ethical investing. It is nineteen minutes to six News
talk sa'd b Yes with Martin r. Was talking about
ethical investing and the importance of your investments spending being
into companies that behave in an ethical manner, whether it
be and this is not just about arms, gambling. It's
(32:06):
about governance, how workforces are treated, the social side of things,
environmental impacts. Yeah, and do you look into your key
we saver companies A few texts here, Martin Martin Hawes. Well,
this is just a comment from Tony. Probably, I don't
know if it's as much to comment on, but she
Tony just says, Tim, I'm a late comer to the
investment game. I don't care when my money is being
(32:27):
invested in it to make as much as I can
for the time that I have left. I reckon Okay,
we'll have to take that at face value. But you know,
if you're making money out of child slave labor, then
pornography would be another one you might want to rule
yourself out of.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Yeah, that slave labor one is interesting because Nike got
into all sorts of trouble about twenty years ago and
they were paying people a dollar a day or something
minuscule in Indonesia, I think to make these shoes now,
not only from an investment point of view, but the
sale of their product point of view. They took a
(33:08):
really big hit on that because they were just seen
as a as a nasty company and they had been,
you know, that being kind of right up there as
a good company for ages. But I don't know if
they still recovered on that. I knew people who wouldn't
touch these shoes.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I just I don't know. I don't want to be
a hypocrite, but I'm not sure if I've got Nike
or not. But I might have. Yeah, no, no, I don't.
That's right. Definitely new balance. That's what the end stands for. Actually,
somebody's listening says, I have a nephew working for the
drone company you mentioned. Well, I didn't actually mention the
specific drone company, just wanted to steer clear of exactly
what they're doing. But anyway, this person says, I'm absolutely
(33:49):
delighted about it. Certainly i'd invested them. That was that is.
I think that's, you know, a very interesting and amazing
story about how New Zealand technology companies are building drones.
Are doing amazing stuff, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, yes, yep, yep. Those stones may get used for
fishery patrol or something like that. You know, we've we've
got a huge amount of ocean around New Zealand which
we have to patrol and so forth and such surveyal
for fishery purposes. You know you can send drones out
that they not only carrying bombs.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, hey, somebody is that Now this one invites an
interesting question here says don't invest in greedy Aussie banks,
invest in New Zealand. And I think it's the second
part of that people, because you know, the government wants
us to invest in New Zealand companies. And I mean
there will be people who would invest in New Zealand
(34:45):
because we want to build a productive economy. But I think,
to be honest, I think that when it comes to
if it's going to sacrifice your returns, it's a luxury
for people who going to afford a lower return. But
what do you feel about local versus international?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I'm an internationalist. I'm a globalist. I like the idea
that we've got communications and technology now that mean that
we can communicate together. And it's like we've been seventy
thousand years ago. We came out of Africa and we
scattered right over the whole planet and so forth, and
we've all of a suddenly been able to get back
(35:21):
in touch with each other. What have you been doing
for the last seventy thousand years while we revolve, and
I love that, So I don't get too tied up
with the fact that the four majors are Ossie banks.
What I would say is that they have something like
ten billion dollars profit amongst them, which seems to me extraordinary.
(35:44):
My response to that as well, If you think it's
such a huge prop profit, gum buy them because you
can just buy their shares on the SHEPST and own
part of them, but also be very careful about getting
so critical of them that we either drive them away
or drive them to be sold, and that sort of.
(36:05):
We're very, very fortunate to have a stable banking system,
because without a stable banking system, you don't have an economy.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Actually, that did lead to something I had where were
possibly going to talk about, which was just the whole
cash thing and the Reserve Bank governor saying that they
wanted to the Reserve Bank wants the well, sorry, the
Reserve Bank governor didn't say this, but the Reserve Bank
as an institution have said they want the banks to
have more ATMs and branches and to be able to
(36:35):
enable people to deal with cash and all that sort
of thing. Did you. I was surprised to see that announcement.
To be honest, Martin, but what did you make of it?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, I didn't know. They've been beavering away in the
bowels of the Reserve Bank now trying to figure this out,
and they've obviously pushed quite hard at the banks, saying,
you know, we really want you to make sure that
you have banks or branches or ability for people to
get cash out in the communities and in small areas.
(37:04):
It's getting hard and harder to find even a lowly
cash machine.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Well, they've got a points, haven't they, the Reserve Bank,
because it does feel they it does feel the banks
have contracted those services so much as to create a
fader complete that we all have to use the plastic yep.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And they are saying to the banks quite explicitly, this
is your cost. You know, if you want to do
business in New Zealand, you have to do business in
all of New Zealand, including out in the country, and
you've got to have places where people can get cash
because you know, I've started using cash more because I've
got so worried about the phone I carry around, you know,
(37:40):
so I don't I don't carry the phone absolutely everywhere
I go now and sometimes I just have a few
banknotes and that's really the first time in probably fifteen
or years probably that I've been been using cash. You
get a bit of a frown from a lot of retailer.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They hate because they can't bank it these easily.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
It's expensive and it's expensive the banks too. But the
Reserve Bank is simply saying that they've closed for their
branches over the last ten years. They are saying, this
is your costs. You've got to do business and you
can't just cherry pick the one bits that you want
to do, and you've got to pay for this and
(38:26):
to have you've got to pay for having more sites
where people can get cash.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Actually, just on that, What is the mechanism that enables
the Reserve Bank to say this is what we're asking
and this is what you're going to do. Ultimately, what authority,
how do they implement that? Is that part of the
licensing conditions for the banks or something or what?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Probably, yes, they look after the banks. The banks are
answerable answerable to the Reserve Bank. Financial stability is one
of the remits of the Reserve Bank, So they can
they say this, I think the banks would have to
(39:09):
do it if they are saying it, but you know,
there's a compliance thing going on here. I'm not sure
exactly what's in the remap.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I wonder how much of it. I wonder how much
of that can be sheeted back to the new Reserve
Bank governor. Would be interesting to see if there's a
scan and Avian influence in that policy.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I think it goes back. Whether I think it goes back,
there's been somebody deputy governor or a governor, maybe a governor,
but go yeah, no it's not I think he's gone.
But it's somebody who sound like you'd been working on
this for a month or two or three.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Okay, right, well, hey, look what time is rushing? Pie?
We'll be back in just a seconds, eight minutes to
six News Talk because it'd be Yes News Talks. They'd
be Tim Beverage with Martin Hawes. Just a quick last question,
a minute or so to go, Martin. I should have
asked this a little while ago, just because people have
got money. Investor would be concerned about what we're seeing
with the run and things to you, I mean the
ships when it comes to choices around investments sale. As
(40:08):
soon as the first missiles are launched. But are you
worried about you know, what's going on with the new
cycle and the effect on our economy.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yes, i am. I'm really worried how this is going
to play out. I listened to a podcast today about
the scattered nature of Iran. I'd always thought Iran was
full of Persians and that was about it. But there
are I think something like fourteen or sixteen different nations,
and there there are Kurds, there are Arabs or blue
(40:39):
Cheese and so forth, and almost all of them are
armed to some extent or other. So if they're looking
for regime change, it's or very well to say, well
this the son of the son of the shark and
just come on back. These people may not want them now,
even if the Persians want them, the others may not.
May turn into a hall of them mess.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yet Yeah, oh well, again, as I've said it, the
politics our fingers crossed. Hey, great Martin, Great to see you.
Life's good for you down in christ Church.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yes all good, Thanks Tom, Good to see you.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Okay, and catch the podcast on News Talks AB or
Heart Radio and at Sunday out six Ers next.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Catch you soon for more from the weekend collective. Listen
live to News Talk z B weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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