February 27, 2026 • 37 mins
Whether it's a friend, your own parents, or you may be going through it yourself - we've all heard the question of whether a couple should 'stay together for the kids'.
Realistically, a divorce does have a significant impact on children, even if they're prioritised and not put in the middle of it.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks edb.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Brother, you don't have this put in.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Your Oh God, each other and you've got a world
and you still.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Got the.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Start from you game.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Brother, you don't have them in your.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I won't pretend that I know how the hell you
see that? Don't mean it's something man, Welcome back. This
is the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage on the Weekend
Collective and we want your calls on eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty and we've got a gnarly one. And
I've been sitting on this topic because for a while,
just because you know, you meet people who go through
all sorts of things with their relationships and their marriages,
(01:02):
and you know, whether it's friends, your own pairs, you
might have gone through it yourself. And it is that
age old question about whether a couple should stay together
for the kids or whether you should think twice at least. Well,
there's a whole lot of questions around it. And look,
you might remember, you know, there was a time when
far too many people stayed in unhealthy relationships because divorce
(01:25):
was just not the dumb thing it was, and it
was made it very difficult for one side of the
of the relationship, often the mums or the women, and
then divorce became much easier. We clarified our laws, and
all of a sudden it felt like everyone was getting
divorced and so along the But you know, regardless of
whether you are pro divorce or anti divorce, there's no
(01:48):
denying that a divorce can and does often have a well,
it does have an impact on children, how well they
cope with it. Who knows, even if they're prioritized and
not put in the middle of it. But of course
on the other side, you've got subjecting children to constant
arguing and all that sort of thing, and are happy
in an unhappy home? And it just gets to that question,
(02:09):
did you stay together for the kids? Should you have
stayed together for the kids? Do you wish you had
or is there always best to split up and that
rather than raise your children in an unhappy home or
how unhappy a home. I've got a million ways I
can ask this question. But also if you do go
ahead with that decision to get divorced, and we've all
seen it where the animosity between the parents, they cannot
(02:34):
put it aside and the people who suffer are the
ones who are caught in the middle, and that's the kids.
So we want to know what you think about this.
And your story is on eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty text nine nine two joining us to discuss this,
Narius and I don't want to get all preachy on
this either, but it's just anyway, I don't know why
I say that just before I introduce my guest, it's sorry.
(02:57):
Chat one makes it sounds like I'm dropping your subtlent.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
You've dropped a lot of infos though. That's a massive topic,
a massive yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And look, look we've probably all seen it. I've seen,
you know. And I think that the cheap beef that
I started with was when I see people who are
you know, whose relationships are over and there's you know,
it's unhealthy and they can't last, but they just can't
put aside the animosity and the kids caught up in
(03:28):
the middle of it. I think it's the worst thing
you can do to your kids is not get over
yourselves long enough to at least let them be Switzerland.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
And it's a little bit illogical, isn't it When you
play it out in front of the kids, because I
think as adults you have a lot of other options.
You don't have to talk to you or you shouldn't
be talking to your children about, you know, the divorce
other than explaining, you know, what is going to happen
in terms of living and you know the dailies and
(03:56):
changeovers and all the rest of it. But in terms
of their animosity, none of those feelings or your feelings
about your partner should be disseminated to other people who
are going to tell your children. I see a lot
of that or should be disseminated to the children, you know,
as they are, because if you're talking about you know,
(04:16):
children between soa birth and ten, well that can be
a disaster. And then after ten, say, when kids are
growing up and they actually know what some of the
words mean and they can you know, feel the vibe
and the hate, and again it's disastrous.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I mean, I think I think, look, obviously, let's just
be clear that if there's cruelty or violence or domestics,
we're not talking about those situations because obviously the decisions
are more obvious. I think that the question is it's
just when mum and dad, you know, it's not honeymoon
period time any longer and they're thinking, oh, well, the
spark's gone, time to split up. And I've spoken to
(04:54):
quite a few people to be like, well, no, we
you know, we might not be like we were and
we're teenagers, but where you know, we've got kids and
we care about each other enough to stick together for
the family and that's for everyone, I guess.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
But can we just talk about that honeymoon period if
people think that that lasts, nostalgia changes. No, but I
mean it would be very unrealistic for people out there
to think that the you know, the lust and the
passion and the energy that we have in our early
years with a partner will necessarily be exactly the same.
(05:29):
I'm sure that most research would suggests that it morphs,
it changes, it, it gets to something that hopefully is
great friendship. Attractions still the desire to be together for
a lot of reasons, of which children might be one,
but there are other reasons.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I think relationships just get more multifaceted, don't they. I mean,
when you're in you know, when you're when you're a
teenager and you've got to crush it's all about I
love you, and you know look at someone's eyes and
you can't get it. You know, you just have a
crush and yet you know, long term there has to
be so much more to it.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I remember meeting I can't remember who it was years ago.
Who was we don't name and shame them to No, no,
I'm not going to. It was a friend of a
friend of a friend of a friend of a friend.
But they he talked about how you know, they were
madly in love with each other and when they got
over the love phase, they realized that actually didn't like
(06:21):
each other very much and had to work on being friends.
And then that's when the relationship went from strength to strength.
But it was sort of like, you know, I won't
go into the nitty gritty, but they were having lots
of quality time together, yes, but didn't involve much conversation
about but I mean, is there a time I mean,
for instance, there are different nuances to that question about
(06:43):
staying together for the kids. Would there be a case that, Okay,
maybe things are not as you would like them to be,
but you might stick together because the kids are three
years old and you want them to get through a
few years. I mean, is there an age relation relationship
to this question.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
For the children. I think there's some very definitive typology
eyes mindset that mindsets that people adopt. For example, people
have seen the research that says, hey, well, listen, if
you are going to get a divorce or if your
marriage is really falling apart. When the kids are younger,
you know, their brains are not as complex and they
don't understand as much. So there is a case for
(07:24):
getting things sorted, clearing things up quickly, yes, so that
the children do not have such a huge impact. There's
not such a huge impact on them, if you like.
And then so research suggests that you know, if the
children are young, they have none and no different if
you divorce or separate early, they get into the new flow,
(07:47):
the reorganized, recalibrated kind of flow a little more easily.
Then you have the research that suggests, you know, splitting
up and all of the angst that goes with it,
because a lot of people don't seem to be able
to regulate their emotions going through this. It's hey, it's hard.
And teenagers see this and that's when they they can
often mimic replicate the anger. And there's a lot of
(08:08):
stuff that goes on because when you are a teenager
there's a lot of stuff going on within you anyway,
So as.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
The teenage here the years, the more vulnerable ones they
could be early teenagers, they could.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Be viewed, you know, from that middle childhood to say
sixteen seventeen, as the years where there's so much going
on in terms of growth and maturation for the child
that you know, if you throw separation, nastiness, quarreling, and
divorce into the mix, you know, it's a recipe for
a little bit of a meltdown. However, overarchingly, the research
(08:41):
also says that children exposed on the daily to warring
parents that's terrible. No, it's just not good at all.
So hey, albeit so that I do not want to
sound preachy either, Tim. Yeah, there's a lot of research
that speaks to the different ages and stages and how
it affects these kids.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
And actually it is important. This is the parents squad.
This is not about you know, I'm keen to explore
this because I think it's I don't think anyone undertakes divorce,
you know, gets decides to divorce lightly. And it's not
about saying, you know, is it too easy for people
to divorce or but how do you manage it? How
do you manage making that decision and basically having as
(09:21):
little collateral damage as possible. That's the question. Really. It's
not about we're not getting on and no one's getting
on the high horse saying well, you should divorce or
you shouldn't divorce, and all that sort of thing. It's
how do you manage that process so the kids don't
get hurt? Because as parents, surely that would be ultimately
your first goal. In fact, even family law, it's in fact,
(09:44):
I don't think it's changed since I studied family law
was a lot of the decisions the courts will make
is what is in the best interests of the children's right,
and I sometimes wonder I'm glad the courts do it,
because sometimes I think the parents lose sight of that.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Sometimes I think they do. It's a really emotional environment
and so many things come into effect. And also people
make the crucial mistake of getting friends and family involved
when they should perhaps seek out an objective perspective and
talk to somebody outside the circle of reference. Because there's
a lot of emotions and a lot of reasons why
(10:19):
people respond in certain ways and you know, we've outlined
the game breakers in terms of domestic violence and those
kind of things whereby people should think about leaving relationships definitely,
but certainly I don't. I'm with you. I don't think
anybody goes into a separation or divorce without having a
really hard look at themselves and as you should, because
(10:40):
it's a really big step for you, your partner and
your kids.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, so we'd love to hear from you. We've got
some callers we're going to get into in just a moment.
And if you have been through divorce or I mean,
if you're contemplating divorce, you're probably not going to be
calling us because that would probably be out in the
name attached. It'd be a good way to get started
on that. It's like, I recognize that voice, But how
did you manage the process and what was the thought
process you went through to lessen the impact on your kids?
(11:09):
Text nine to nine two. Let's get into it, Heather, Hello, Hi, Tim?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I'm good? How are you doing?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I'm not too bad, I'm finished where I'm heading home?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Oh? Best part of the day, I reckon, Ah, what
would you like to share with us?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So?
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Well, I was married for nine years, but in a
relationship with the guys for sixteen, and it got to
the point once we had our son, I thought, I've
got two children under this roath and I needed a
supportive husband, and it just wasn't happening, and it got
worse and worse, and I thought that after a year,
I thought we had to do something. We had counseling,
(11:49):
and he wasn't prepared to make any changes, and I thought,
for being a good mum, I felt like I had
to get away. So I left him. And my son
was four and a half at the time, and when
I spoke to him about it, he was more worried
about where his toys were going to be. And you know,
I said, well, you know, there's going to be a
sum at mum's house and some at dad's house, and
(12:10):
you still be able to see both of us. He
lived with me most of the time. He's twenty one now,
well rounded, happy. You know, he's had a good childhood.
And it was the best thing I could have done,
because I was a better mother. His dad stepped up
having to have him on supervisor you on his own visits,
(12:32):
and he actually did more with him once we were separated.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
That's quite a common theme. Actually, I see that, and
I think a lot of people going through the court,
the family court process, see that when people or women
make decisions based on the fact that you know, husbands
aren't being supportive or having or inputting too much to
their children's you know, daily care, that often these men
step up. So that was obviously a really good decision
(12:58):
that you made. And I think key point is you
see you it sounds like you managed it beautifully, like really, well, yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I forget, as long as he could see that mum
and dad were happy and we didn't fight or anything.
As long as he could see we were getting on
with things and being the same on our own, we
were going to still be good parents to him. And
it's definitely paid off. I'd much rather have left than
be stuck in a marriage that was unhappy and angry.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
And you know, that's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
I mean, how long did it take you to make
was the decision primarily about your happiness or how did
you time thinking about your son and all that sort
of thing.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Well, because he was so little, I thought, you know,
I was the main caregiver. Anywhere I could have been
single then doing it, you know, and I thought, we'll
give him a chance to step up and do the
fatherly thing, which I expected he would automatically do. So
it took about a year for me to kind of
process what I needed to be a better parent, and
(14:04):
so having counseling just consumed. No, he actually couldn't. He
wasn't mentally capable of being a parent at that stage.
He was an old a parent, but he still couldn't
do it.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Was it sort of? Was it a bit ironic in
a way that divorced made him a better dad?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
But I think that's fabulous. I mean, isn't he a
lucky man that it turned out like that because he
had that opportunity to actually, you know, step up. And
now the son sounds as though he has a great
relationship with both of you. I mean, I'm sure there's
a little bits and pieces and ups and downs, but
that is really cool.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Nah, he's a good kid. And he's moved back with
his dad because that a thing. I'd had enough of
him and your turn.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now he's probably at the age where a bit of
fatherly input on some of those issues is not a
bad thing, is it.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Well, Yeah, I was in a relationship with a guy
since then who was more fatherly, stugger in hands on
with him than his I'm dad, but in saying that
his dad and it's nice that they are living together
and he is dead, can put his little spin on it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Now, Yeah, actually that's well that I mean what I
would hear here there as well? He wouldn't, you know,
you obviously haven't you obviously didn't demonize as dad. So
he that's quite an old you know, quite a we're
the alternative when he wants.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
To have a change the thing that is an absolute
key part to having a successful relationship co parenting relationship
that you do not demonize. I actually know, I loathe
seeing that when when women demonize the father and the
you know, the scuttle button, the gossip and all the
rest of it has a huge negative impact on the
children and and of course the parenting relationship.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Even now, we have a good relationship as father and
I you know, that's great and because we're always going
to be in each other's lives because of our sons.
So what's the point of other than for each other?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, yes, indeed, no good point. Thanks Hey, thanks Heather.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Thanks for thanks, thank you, see you later.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Bye, just before we go to the break when then
we'll come back with Pete. Here's one on the texts.
My ex and I split when the kids were nine
seven until it's the best thing I could have done.
I became happy, healthy, and that reflects on the children.
The relationship was over for a long time before I
decided I couldn't take any more. I basically had another
man child who didn't contribute more than money. I was
(16:29):
also working. Two kids are really good about it, and
the X and I are amicable, which helps. She says
he's still a manchild, but learning every day how to
be a dad.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
I mean, yeah, I suppose that's a perspective. But I
think a couple of the key points coming out of
this are that these women are not demonizing the men,
and by being a part they have a greater perspective
on parenting happily together. And again, the research does suggest
that that's the way that it often goes for people.
Being bitter and twisted and arguing and having all of
(17:03):
that drama going on in the household really isn't good
for anyone.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, all right, we'll be back with more calls in
just a moment. We're talking about divorce, how did you
manage and manage it and also make the decision? And
is there ever a case for staying together for the children,
or maybe I could put it in another way for
just maybe making that extra effort to see if really
(17:28):
this is the last straw, whether you can make it
work because there are kids. Of course, we all know
when you're single, you know, somebody just needs to look
at you the wrong way and it's all over. I
don't know that's a that's just my simple way of
something else. I was just kidding. Twenty four past five,
News Talk said B. News Talk said, B. This is
(17:50):
the parent's squad. Should you ever stay together for the kids?
And if not, how do you manage a split up
without hurting the children? So yeah, we're sort of talking
divorce on the parent Squad. My guest is Sarah Chat
when she's a psychologist. Mind works and useful to get. Actually, Sarah,
it's quite useful to get the sort of science in
terms of what what things do impact kids' children. I
(18:12):
got to stop saying kids. I know it irritates some
my listeners. I try to max it upsious, but you know,
the things that really the ways that you can cause
damage and especially even staying together in a really unhealthy.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Relationship, absolutely warring and arguing on the daily in front
of children. We've touched on that demonizing either party, you know,
dad's demonizing mums or moms with dads doesn't help because
those kids are genetically related to both of you, so,
you know, it really chips away at their own self
esteem and their view of the world. Lack of communication,
(18:47):
poor co parenting communication skills don't help. But also I
think if perhaps you haven't tried in your relationship. I
know the last caller, Heather that we were talking to,
you know, Heather said that it was about a year
that it took her to get from identifying, hey, this
you know isn't working for me, it hasn't been working
for a while to getting to that point where she
(19:09):
could comfortably let go of everything and manage a really
positive exert that might have had a little bit of
a you know, ups and downs in that moment, but really,
now that the child has gone from being four when
they separated to twenty one and having great relationships with
both parents, there is a huge degree of management to
(19:32):
get it to that place. Where things are really amicable
and communicative and positive for both parents and children.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Right to switch my own microphone off there. But actually,
I think at the heart of it, we look we'll
go to Peton just to take I think the heart
of it is, you know, for any reasonable person and
putting aside as again because there always people are tuning in.
Haven't heard the earlier comments. This has got nothing to
do with We're not talking about cruelty and domestic violence
when obviously the decision is pretty straightforward on that stuff thing.
(20:05):
But are there outside of that where there's just a
relationship that's broken down? Are there? And we'll look into
this with Sarah. Are there minimum requirements of the actions
you should undertake to check that whatever the problems of
the relationship, that reconciliation is no longer something that's on
the cards. Should you go to counseling? Should you alred you?
(20:25):
Just because legally all you need to do is walk
out the door and go I'm out and two years
later you can get a dissolution of marriage. So yeah,
what do you reckon? Pete?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Hello, Keynote Cordua, how are you how to hire to
the both of you? Hi?
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Pete, where do you go?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
What do you want to share with us?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, just before I talk about the big days and
not being say but the divorce, I'd just like to say, Sarah,
I may have seeted Tim some grossy dysfunctional things about
mental help, but not once if I ever said anything,
better better psychologist, I get on well, psychologist, appreciate well,
(21:08):
get to the reality point about a marriage. They started
all with a success story and later went downhill. I
was married for exactly three years, a year prior to
my son being born. And this is the early nineteen nineties.
I was in my thirties, early thirties and my wife
was nineteen at the time, and it was accessful, working,
(21:32):
past wealthy. It depends on marriage, right, So there were issues.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
There were issues from the start. For you, guys, you were.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
A little bit of goodness. She's my wife, thought the
relationship is so machine them she made design her clothes
and sold them a market, great prices.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So when did you see that it.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Was going wrong? When did you decide to get out
of that marriage?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, just the story short. Second year into the marriage,
my mom died and elect us an inheritancey and it
was like winning success the first of versions of and
as I said, we were working class, wealthy in dependent families,
so were relocated from a beached shop to a middle
(22:15):
class area like mong of Phone and Eden lived on
Burley Road in the free room, driller, big, big backyard gardens.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Everything changes.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
What about you? What about your son? Tell us about
how you managed that.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
My son was golf, he had the nappies, had to
Cartoni nor top class kPr dairy products. But we took
on some we weren't prepared for. When we moved to
a middle class area like Epsom or Mongaphone, we took
on middle class baaries and manners in which that became
leefal in the wrong minds, in the wrong hands. We
(22:52):
were both by him. It was the wealth they.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
How did you navigate? How did you navigate the parenting
when you split? You obviously do you have a good
relationship with your son? Have you manage to you know,
have a have a good co parenting relationship?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, it looked at what gaza incams are in the
boomerang culture might have to not before the divorce. There
was the separation that you have to eagerly undertake. And
my son went with my wife former wife, and there
was until the divorce settlement came through that I discussed
my mind that I was a hell of a lonely
(23:29):
male and that I'd be wanting to take on the
care of our son, and she was against it. He
was against it. But we lifted up to my three
year old son to decide for himself who liked to
live with, and he chose me.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Judge, was there a judge involved in this that some
schedule proceedings or not.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
No, this is the mid nineteen nineties when lifestyle under Winston,
Peters and boldrooms very well.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I studied family law before that time, and judges used
to have a bit of involvement in these things anyway.
But actually, that's a hell of a thing to ask
a three year on what you want. I mean, I'm
not sure.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
I'm not sure that they're capable of making a really
informed decision at that age, but hey, yeah it happened.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I've got a few texts here, just because our first
couple of callers were women who were talking about guys
who didn't really step up as fathers, who are just saying, look,
this is not about how do I sum it up,
It's not a battle of the sexes. We've had a
couple of women talking about their relationships. It's two women
talking about their partners and how maybe they didn't step
up then they did. That's all right. It's not an
attack on men. Women sharing their.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
Stories and everybody's situation is very unique to them, and
we are hearing people's, you know, individual stories. We are
not throwing a net, casting a net and pulling everyone in.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Actually, I don't know. It used to be that it
was sort of a presumption that when there was a
custody dispute, because a lot of the you know, when
couples split up, it's not like it's necessarily easy decision
that obviously they go with mum or than with dad,
but that you did used to be a presumption in
favor of mums. I don't know how that play out
in the family courts these days.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Do you have any I don't have any statistics on that,
but certainly there's been a little bit more leaning into
the necessity for strong relationships with fathers if they are
the one moving out of the house where the children
are housed. Certainly, you know, there's a lot more fatherly
or paternal input into children's lives these days, and we're
(25:29):
more aware of it. I mean you'd probably see that.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean I'm just curious. I mean I haven't
practiced law for donkeys.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
In fact, I always avoided family law like the plague,
because I just didn't That's the thing when you come
out as a law graduate and you're supposed to handle
sort of things like divorce when you barely had in
your relationships yourself. I just was like, there's no way
I want to handle any of the stuff. I used
to farm it out to another lawyer who was quite
good at it, and we like, you want to have
this case because I just found it too stressful because
the stakes they're just they're.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
So high, and I guess it's hard when you don't
have any experience or input to add to that equation.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
You have no content. I felt like a little bit difficut,
absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
I choose psychology over law any day.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Here's a text says I think a lot of people
think that losing the spark means it's time for divorce,
when really relationships ebb and flow by nature.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
I hope they don't think that it's wild. I hope
they don't think that losing the spark means that it's
all curtains. Because that text person is all is very right.
It kind of translates into something different. It means that
you can create other pathways of connection. And I mean,
I'm really hoping that there aren't people out there that think, hey,
(26:42):
my marriage is over just because we're not having as
much sex as we did when we first met.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That was that was the elephant in the room. They
hadn't really put it together.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Yeah, I decided to free that elephant and out because
that would be really, really silly.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You know, I should read, I should finish the text
it says. They say it's normal to feel like ship's
passing in the night for a few months. It's okay
to be a sence actually roommates every now and again.
It's all good to then be obsessed with each other
for a month or two, and it's totally normal when
that goes away for a while. Divorces for cheating and
reconcilable I can't even say irreconcilable differences, et cetera. Divorce
(27:21):
is not for when you've been busy for a few
months and haven't had a chance for a date night.
I think that's been forgotten in the modern day. I
actually do sort of think there's something to that.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
I think that is a very, very spark exactly crafted text.
I love it because it's brought up so much stuff.
You know, when we are busy and in relationships and
we have been in that relationship for a few years
or however long, Well, what I'm saying is there's some
longevity to that relationship. Of course, there are going to
be those moments of ebb and flow. I absolutely love
(27:55):
what that person has said.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Because it's from Cynthia. So thank you, Cynthia. Nice method message.
We will take a break and be back in a
It is by the way, we love your How did
you handle divorce? How did you handle the decision? And
how did your factor in the kids? The children? Did
you stay together for a bit longer for that reason
and then think okay, now it's time to go, or
(28:16):
did you cut and run or how did you manage
it when you did split up? Eight hundred eighty ten
eighty it's twenty two minutes to six news Talks. He'd
be News Talk said be We're talking divorce on the
Parents Squad and with Sarah Chatwin she's a psychologist at
Mind Works. She's with us, actually, Sarah, I think, what
are the questions? Obviously, look, I think it's easy. You know,
(28:39):
in the world of talkbacks sometimes you know, people would say, oh,
people get divorced too easily, and all that sort of stuff.
And I think, unless you are just a fly by night,
you know, flibbert, a gibbit, with not much thought for
anyone but yourself, everyone puts a lot of thought into
these questions.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I would have to tell you that anybody that has
been through Mike Clinic over the past twenty eight years
has put a lot of thought into separation and divorce
prior to actually pulling any pin or cutting any cord.
It's a really big deal.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
How much should people? Because I think a lot of
the time, if people are concerned about their relationship and
they're thinking, you know, of divorce, they'll talk about it
with everyone but their partner. And when should you? I mean,
I tend to think that that probably is a bit
of a mistake, because if you've grown a partner, you're
(29:28):
not conversing. You know, there are ways to check out
when you know whether there's a hope for your relationship.
I believe. But if all you're talking to are your
mates and maybe even some of your friends, you don't
like your partner, of course it's going to be history.
So when should you?
Speaker 5 (29:41):
That could be a fatal error that a lot of
people make, because when you talk to friends, when you
talk to family members, you are dealing with people who
have a gender. They might love you, they might be
jealous of you, they might hate you.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
They if they might think they're doing you a favor
by supporting your.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Winging yes and enabling so one, I thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
That's all right, I'm get a.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Psychologists here today. So I think that that could be
a fatal error that a lot of people make. Certainly,
it is also not nice to be talking behind your
partner's back about something that they're connected into. I would
always suggest.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I would say it's essential for some people, though, because
sometimes you want if you've got a best friend and
you just want to you want a vent. I mean,
you've got to have that spaced event.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
You've got to be You've got to have some sense
that your friend will then then not take a position
against your partner. You've got to have a sense that
your friend will just purely be a reflective kind of
a board or a mirror, and that they won't add
anything to fuel that divorce or separation fire. Now, I
(30:46):
don't know how many of us could say that our
best friends wouldn't just slightly have our best interests more
at heart than another person.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
You've got problem is that having your when a friend
has what they think is their friend's best interests at heart,
they might not if they are removing the possibilities right
of exploring conciliation or reconciliation.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Absolutely true. And that is why if you go and
sit in front of somebody who doesn't know you, or
like you or dislike you, they are a completely objective
person that perhaps you've had a quick chat to, you know,
in your search for psychologists or people who you think
could be able to help you navigate this space, this
landscape that's very tricky. They are probably your best bet.
(31:29):
And if it costs you a little bit of money,
that's okay, because they will give you tools and suggestions
and tips to take away and to use in this situation.
And then you don't burden any friends or any family members,
and you have this lovely new perspective on things that
can be very helpful because I think, oh, friends, family members, Boy,
that's loaded. You know, that's a little bit of a
(31:51):
loaded way.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Often do people go through counseling and decide that they're
going to give it another shot?
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Well, I would say most of my clients absolutely, because
you talk about time frames. You can't make a decision
like this, you know, in a second. No, I would
say that most everybody that comes to me to begin
with wants to make some positive changes and modifications within
themselves and then thus within the relationship. If they find
(32:17):
along the journey that the modifications are not enough for
they're not happening, you know, then you move into the
territory of okay, well what are my other options? So
I absolutely think it's it's totally a journey and you
never know. I mean I would have thought back in
the day, you know, when I was first practicing, that
infidelity was a game breaker, because that is awful. If
(32:39):
you are in a relationship and you decide that you're
going to be with somebody else but not tell your husband, wife, partner, whatever.
I mean, I would have thought that was a game breaker.
Not so today, people can you know, they can talk
it through and if it is okay, and if it
is workable, I mean, some couples have even got through
what you and I might think is, you know, are
(33:00):
really pretty critically well. The law actually says that it's
pretty hard to get through too, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I've actually, I mean this is going back, but I
actually were aware of cases where people have really been
at loggerheads and they're but basically haven't. They haven't had
a communicative relationship with each other for a long time,
and so the resentment is built and then by virtue
of venting their sort of loathing for each other. Funny
(33:26):
thing is, I've actually seen it where they've vented it
all and then they've realized that they've actually for finally
shared their feelings and they've ended up reconciling and working
it up because they started talking.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
Because they've got rid of the rubbish. It's like having
a rubbish bin that's overloaded and starting to you know,
smell pretty bad, and then you're going empty y it,
and then you go, well, I actually quite like this person.
I mean, there's not that many.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You really bloody drive me nuts, but hey, it's sort
of that that I had in mind in terms of
how far you need to explore the conciliation or reconciliation
before you, you know, especially when they're I think you
at least if you're a family it's easy. If you're
a single person, you know, and you've just got bored
and you're twenty three years old or whatever, and that's it. Okay,
(34:14):
relationship shift part all the time. But when there's family involved,
I think that you know, everyone deserves to explore everything
so you know you've made the right decision.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
So family, children, you know, all of that adds a
layer of complexity that you need to work through. So
I would suggest that there is work to be done
as opposed to a twenty three year old dating somebody
with no children, no mortgage, nothing, But that doesn't mean
that that relationship couldn't be a relationship that lasts. And
certainly if you're cut up enough about it and you
really are investing a lot of time and energy, thought
(34:45):
energy in it, talking to somebody would be helpful as well,
but certainly with children and time. You know, if you've
been in a twenty year relationship, going to somebody and
having a chat and just leaving family and friends out
of it and not taking all this armchair advice on board,
but perhaps choosing somebody who comes from a place of
(35:06):
intellectual rigord in that field so that they can point
you in the direction that might be really helpful to
bring things back.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
How do counselor I mean, is there a common sort
of model for how counseling it works between couples? I mean,
because a lot of the time each person will get
their own counseling and then they'll have a sort of
know how does it work when them? How often do
we have the cliche? I don't mean cliche, but you know,
you can imagine husband and wife sitting there in front
of a counselor and having it out.
Speaker 5 (35:33):
Oh no, there's couples counseling, So husband and wife go.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
To that the most common form of counseling as opposed
to mum talks. You know, one talks to one counselor
another one talks to another one.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Well, often you have people presenting at their own times
with different issues. So it might be that someone in
a relationship is feeling a certain way, so they decide
that they need to go and get some individual help
and some advice, some tips, and then the other person
may not go, and you might be able to resolve
things for that person and things you know flow very well.
(36:05):
But absolutely psychologists see couples. That's couples there.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Well because it makes sort of sense that you would
have one person moderating for two people, because it.
Speaker 5 (36:14):
Works very well in a lot of scenarios. And then
sometimes after the couple's therapy, the individual components of that couple,
that the husband and wife or you know, husband and husband,
whoever there is, they choose to go on with some
form of singular therapy if that if that's what they
find helps them. I mean, in this country, nothing is sanctioned.
(36:36):
You can choose, You have a choice over how it
plays out.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
And if people actually do want to get some counsel
and they want to contact mind Works, how do they
do that?
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Hey, they can hit the old dot mind workstock code
on n Z and ring email, have a bit of
a chat and you know, see how they feel, and
also check out other great psychologists that we have in
this country.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Hey, great to see us, Sarah.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Oh thanks Tim. Always nice to see you, Tea.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
We'll see you again next time. Absolutely, that wraps the
Parents Squad. We'll be back to wrap Sport with Nathan
limbs with us in just a moment, it is ten
minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks edb.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Brother, you don't have this put in.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Your Oh God, each other and you've got a world
and you still.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Got the.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Start from you game.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Brother, you don't have them in your.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I won't pretend that I know how the hell you
see that? Don't mean it's something man, Welcome back. This
is the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage on the Weekend
Collective and we want your calls on eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty and we've got a gnarly one. And
I've been sitting on this topic because for a while,
just because you know, you meet people who go through
all sorts of things with their relationships and their marriages,
(01:02):
and you know, whether it's friends, your own pairs, you
might have gone through it yourself. And it is that
age old question about whether a couple should stay together
for the kids or whether you should think twice at least. Well,
there's a whole lot of questions around it. And look,
you might remember, you know, there was a time when
far too many people stayed in unhealthy relationships because divorce
(01:25):
was just not the dumb thing it was, and it
was made it very difficult for one side of the
of the relationship, often the mums or the women, and
then divorce became much easier. We clarified our laws, and
all of a sudden it felt like everyone was getting
divorced and so along the But you know, regardless of
whether you are pro divorce or anti divorce, there's no
(01:48):
denying that a divorce can and does often have a well,
it does have an impact on children, how well they
cope with it. Who knows, even if they're prioritized and
not put in the middle of it. But of course
on the other side, you've got subjecting children to constant
arguing and all that sort of thing, and are happy
in an unhappy home? And it just gets to that question,
(02:09):
did you stay together for the kids? Should you have
stayed together for the kids? Do you wish you had
or is there always best to split up and that
rather than raise your children in an unhappy home or
how unhappy a home. I've got a million ways I
can ask this question. But also if you do go
ahead with that decision to get divorced, and we've all
seen it where the animosity between the parents, they cannot
(02:34):
put it aside and the people who suffer are the
ones who are caught in the middle, and that's the kids.
So we want to know what you think about this.
And your story is on eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty text nine nine two joining us to discuss this,
Narius and I don't want to get all preachy on
this either, but it's just anyway, I don't know why
I say that just before I introduce my guest, it's sorry.
(02:57):
Chat one makes it sounds like I'm dropping your subtlent.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
You've dropped a lot of infos though. That's a massive topic,
a massive yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And look, look we've probably all seen it. I've seen,
you know. And I think that the cheap beef that
I started with was when I see people who are
you know, whose relationships are over and there's you know,
it's unhealthy and they can't last, but they just can't
put aside the animosity and the kids caught up in
(03:28):
the middle of it. I think it's the worst thing
you can do to your kids is not get over
yourselves long enough to at least let them be Switzerland.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
And it's a little bit illogical, isn't it When you
play it out in front of the kids, because I
think as adults you have a lot of other options.
You don't have to talk to you or you shouldn't
be talking to your children about, you know, the divorce
other than explaining, you know, what is going to happen
in terms of living and you know the dailies and
(03:56):
changeovers and all the rest of it. But in terms
of their animosity, none of those feelings or your feelings
about your partner should be disseminated to other people who
are going to tell your children. I see a lot
of that or should be disseminated to the children, you know,
as they are, because if you're talking about you know,
(04:16):
children between soa birth and ten, well that can be
a disaster. And then after ten, say, when kids are
growing up and they actually know what some of the
words mean and they can you know, feel the vibe
and the hate, and again it's disastrous.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I mean, I think I think, look, obviously, let's just
be clear that if there's cruelty or violence or domestics,
we're not talking about those situations because obviously the decisions
are more obvious. I think that the question is it's
just when mum and dad, you know, it's not honeymoon
period time any longer and they're thinking, oh, well, the
spark's gone, time to split up. And I've spoken to
(04:54):
quite a few people to be like, well, no, we
you know, we might not be like we were and
we're teenagers, but where you know, we've got kids and
we care about each other enough to stick together for
the family and that's for everyone, I guess.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
But can we just talk about that honeymoon period if
people think that that lasts, nostalgia changes. No, but I
mean it would be very unrealistic for people out there
to think that the you know, the lust and the
passion and the energy that we have in our early
years with a partner will necessarily be exactly the same.
(05:29):
I'm sure that most research would suggests that it morphs,
it changes, it, it gets to something that hopefully is
great friendship. Attractions still the desire to be together for
a lot of reasons, of which children might be one,
but there are other reasons.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I think relationships just get more multifaceted, don't they. I mean,
when you're in you know, when you're when you're a
teenager and you've got to crush it's all about I
love you, and you know look at someone's eyes and
you can't get it. You know, you just have a
crush and yet you know, long term there has to
be so much more to it.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I remember meeting I can't remember who it was years ago.
Who was we don't name and shame them to No, no,
I'm not going to. It was a friend of a
friend of a friend of a friend of a friend.
But they he talked about how you know, they were
madly in love with each other and when they got
over the love phase, they realized that actually didn't like
(06:21):
each other very much and had to work on being friends.
And then that's when the relationship went from strength to strength.
But it was sort of like, you know, I won't
go into the nitty gritty, but they were having lots
of quality time together, yes, but didn't involve much conversation
about but I mean, is there a time I mean,
for instance, there are different nuances to that question about
(06:43):
staying together for the kids. Would there be a case that, Okay,
maybe things are not as you would like them to be,
but you might stick together because the kids are three
years old and you want them to get through a
few years. I mean, is there an age relation relationship
to this question.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
For the children. I think there's some very definitive typology
eyes mindset that mindsets that people adopt. For example, people
have seen the research that says, hey, well, listen, if
you are going to get a divorce or if your
marriage is really falling apart. When the kids are younger,
you know, their brains are not as complex and they
don't understand as much. So there is a case for
(07:24):
getting things sorted, clearing things up quickly, yes, so that
the children do not have such a huge impact. There's
not such a huge impact on them, if you like.
And then so research suggests that you know, if the
children are young, they have none and no different if
you divorce or separate early, they get into the new flow,
(07:47):
the reorganized, recalibrated kind of flow a little more easily.
Then you have the research that suggests, you know, splitting
up and all of the angst that goes with it,
because a lot of people don't seem to be able
to regulate their emotions going through this. It's hey, it's hard.
And teenagers see this and that's when they they can
often mimic replicate the anger. And there's a lot of
(08:08):
stuff that goes on because when you are a teenager
there's a lot of stuff going on within you anyway,
So as.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
The teenage here the years, the more vulnerable ones they
could be early teenagers, they could.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Be viewed, you know, from that middle childhood to say
sixteen seventeen, as the years where there's so much going
on in terms of growth and maturation for the child
that you know, if you throw separation, nastiness, quarreling, and
divorce into the mix, you know, it's a recipe for
a little bit of a meltdown. However, overarchingly, the research
(08:41):
also says that children exposed on the daily to warring
parents that's terrible. No, it's just not good at all.
So hey, albeit so that I do not want to
sound preachy either, Tim. Yeah, there's a lot of research
that speaks to the different ages and stages and how
it affects these kids.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
And actually it is important. This is the parents squad.
This is not about you know, I'm keen to explore
this because I think it's I don't think anyone undertakes divorce,
you know, gets decides to divorce lightly. And it's not
about saying, you know, is it too easy for people
to divorce or but how do you manage it? How
do you manage making that decision and basically having as
(09:21):
little collateral damage as possible. That's the question. Really. It's
not about we're not getting on and no one's getting
on the high horse saying well, you should divorce or
you shouldn't divorce, and all that sort of thing. It's
how do you manage that process so the kids don't
get hurt? Because as parents, surely that would be ultimately
your first goal. In fact, even family law, it's in fact,
(09:44):
I don't think it's changed since I studied family law
was a lot of the decisions the courts will make
is what is in the best interests of the children's right,
and I sometimes wonder I'm glad the courts do it,
because sometimes I think the parents lose sight of that.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Sometimes I think they do. It's a really emotional environment
and so many things come into effect. And also people
make the crucial mistake of getting friends and family involved
when they should perhaps seek out an objective perspective and
talk to somebody outside the circle of reference. Because there's
a lot of emotions and a lot of reasons why
(10:19):
people respond in certain ways and you know, we've outlined
the game breakers in terms of domestic violence and those
kind of things whereby people should think about leaving relationships definitely,
but certainly I don't. I'm with you. I don't think
anybody goes into a separation or divorce without having a
really hard look at themselves and as you should, because
(10:40):
it's a really big step for you, your partner and
your kids.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, so we'd love to hear from you. We've got
some callers we're going to get into in just a moment.
And if you have been through divorce or I mean,
if you're contemplating divorce, you're probably not going to be
calling us because that would probably be out in the
name attached. It'd be a good way to get started
on that. It's like, I recognize that voice, But how
did you manage the process and what was the thought
process you went through to lessen the impact on your kids?
(11:09):
Text nine to nine two. Let's get into it, Heather, Hello, Hi, Tim?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I'm good? How are you doing?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I'm not too bad, I'm finished where I'm heading home?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Oh? Best part of the day, I reckon, Ah, what
would you like to share with us?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So?
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Well, I was married for nine years, but in a
relationship with the guys for sixteen, and it got to
the point once we had our son, I thought, I've
got two children under this roath and I needed a
supportive husband, and it just wasn't happening, and it got
worse and worse, and I thought that after a year,
I thought we had to do something. We had counseling,
(11:49):
and he wasn't prepared to make any changes, and I thought,
for being a good mum, I felt like I had
to get away. So I left him. And my son
was four and a half at the time, and when
I spoke to him about it, he was more worried
about where his toys were going to be. And you know,
I said, well, you know, there's going to be a
sum at mum's house and some at dad's house, and
(12:10):
you still be able to see both of us. He
lived with me most of the time. He's twenty one now,
well rounded, happy. You know, he's had a good childhood.
And it was the best thing I could have done,
because I was a better mother. His dad stepped up
having to have him on supervisor you on his own visits,
(12:32):
and he actually did more with him once we were separated.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
That's quite a common theme. Actually, I see that, and
I think a lot of people going through the court,
the family court process, see that when people or women
make decisions based on the fact that you know, husbands
aren't being supportive or having or inputting too much to
their children's you know, daily care, that often these men
step up. So that was obviously a really good decision
(12:58):
that you made. And I think key point is you
see you it sounds like you managed it beautifully, like really, well, yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I forget, as long as he could see that mum
and dad were happy and we didn't fight or anything.
As long as he could see we were getting on
with things and being the same on our own, we
were going to still be good parents to him. And
it's definitely paid off. I'd much rather have left than
be stuck in a marriage that was unhappy and angry.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
And you know, that's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
I mean, how long did it take you to make
was the decision primarily about your happiness or how did
you time thinking about your son and all that sort
of thing.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Well, because he was so little, I thought, you know,
I was the main caregiver. Anywhere I could have been
single then doing it, you know, and I thought, we'll
give him a chance to step up and do the
fatherly thing, which I expected he would automatically do. So
it took about a year for me to kind of
process what I needed to be a better parent, and
(14:04):
so having counseling just consumed. No, he actually couldn't. He
wasn't mentally capable of being a parent at that stage.
He was an old a parent, but he still couldn't
do it.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Was it sort of? Was it a bit ironic in
a way that divorced made him a better dad?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
But I think that's fabulous. I mean, isn't he a
lucky man that it turned out like that because he
had that opportunity to actually, you know, step up. And
now the son sounds as though he has a great
relationship with both of you. I mean, I'm sure there's
a little bits and pieces and ups and downs, but
that is really cool.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Nah, he's a good kid. And he's moved back with
his dad because that a thing. I'd had enough of
him and your turn.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now he's probably at the age where a bit of
fatherly input on some of those issues is not a
bad thing, is it.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Well, Yeah, I was in a relationship with a guy
since then who was more fatherly, stugger in hands on
with him than his I'm dad, but in saying that
his dad and it's nice that they are living together
and he is dead, can put his little spin on it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Now, Yeah, actually that's well that I mean what I
would hear here there as well? He wouldn't, you know,
you obviously haven't you obviously didn't demonize as dad. So
he that's quite an old you know, quite a we're
the alternative when he wants.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
To have a change the thing that is an absolute
key part to having a successful relationship co parenting relationship
that you do not demonize. I actually know, I loathe
seeing that when when women demonize the father and the
you know, the scuttle button, the gossip and all the
rest of it has a huge negative impact on the
children and and of course the parenting relationship.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Even now, we have a good relationship as father and
I you know, that's great and because we're always going
to be in each other's lives because of our sons.
So what's the point of other than for each other?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, yes, indeed, no good point. Thanks Hey, thanks Heather.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Thanks for thanks, thank you, see you later.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Bye, just before we go to the break when then
we'll come back with Pete. Here's one on the texts.
My ex and I split when the kids were nine
seven until it's the best thing I could have done.
I became happy, healthy, and that reflects on the children.
The relationship was over for a long time before I
decided I couldn't take any more. I basically had another
man child who didn't contribute more than money. I was
(16:29):
also working. Two kids are really good about it, and
the X and I are amicable, which helps. She says
he's still a manchild, but learning every day how to
be a dad.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
I mean, yeah, I suppose that's a perspective. But I
think a couple of the key points coming out of
this are that these women are not demonizing the men,
and by being a part they have a greater perspective
on parenting happily together. And again, the research does suggest
that that's the way that it often goes for people.
Being bitter and twisted and arguing and having all of
(17:03):
that drama going on in the household really isn't good
for anyone.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, all right, we'll be back with more calls in
just a moment. We're talking about divorce, how did you
manage and manage it and also make the decision? And
is there ever a case for staying together for the children,
or maybe I could put it in another way for
just maybe making that extra effort to see if really
(17:28):
this is the last straw, whether you can make it
work because there are kids. Of course, we all know
when you're single, you know, somebody just needs to look
at you the wrong way and it's all over. I
don't know that's a that's just my simple way of
something else. I was just kidding. Twenty four past five,
News Talk said B. News Talk said, B. This is
(17:50):
the parent's squad. Should you ever stay together for the kids?
And if not, how do you manage a split up
without hurting the children? So yeah, we're sort of talking
divorce on the parent Squad. My guest is Sarah Chat
when she's a psychologist. Mind works and useful to get. Actually, Sarah,
it's quite useful to get the sort of science in
terms of what what things do impact kids' children. I
(18:12):
got to stop saying kids. I know it irritates some
my listeners. I try to max it upsious, but you know,
the things that really the ways that you can cause
damage and especially even staying together in a really unhealthy.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Relationship, absolutely warring and arguing on the daily in front
of children. We've touched on that demonizing either party, you know,
dad's demonizing mums or moms with dads doesn't help because
those kids are genetically related to both of you, so,
you know, it really chips away at their own self
esteem and their view of the world. Lack of communication,
(18:47):
poor co parenting communication skills don't help. But also I
think if perhaps you haven't tried in your relationship. I
know the last caller, Heather that we were talking to,
you know, Heather said that it was about a year
that it took her to get from identifying, hey, this
you know isn't working for me, it hasn't been working
for a while to getting to that point where she
(19:09):
could comfortably let go of everything and manage a really
positive exert that might have had a little bit of
a you know, ups and downs in that moment, but really,
now that the child has gone from being four when
they separated to twenty one and having great relationships with
both parents, there is a huge degree of management to
(19:32):
get it to that place. Where things are really amicable
and communicative and positive for both parents and children.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Right to switch my own microphone off there. But actually,
I think at the heart of it, we look we'll
go to Peton just to take I think the heart
of it is, you know, for any reasonable person and
putting aside as again because there always people are tuning in.
Haven't heard the earlier comments. This has got nothing to
do with We're not talking about cruelty and domestic violence
when obviously the decision is pretty straightforward on that stuff thing.
(20:05):
But are there outside of that where there's just a
relationship that's broken down? Are there? And we'll look into
this with Sarah. Are there minimum requirements of the actions
you should undertake to check that whatever the problems of
the relationship, that reconciliation is no longer something that's on
the cards. Should you go to counseling? Should you alred you?
(20:25):
Just because legally all you need to do is walk
out the door and go I'm out and two years
later you can get a dissolution of marriage. So yeah,
what do you reckon? Pete?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Hello, Keynote Cordua, how are you how to hire to
the both of you? Hi?
Speaker 5 (20:39):
Pete, where do you go?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
What do you want to share with us?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Well, just before I talk about the big days and
not being say but the divorce, I'd just like to say, Sarah,
I may have seeted Tim some grossy dysfunctional things about
mental help, but not once if I ever said anything,
better better psychologist, I get on well, psychologist, appreciate well,
(21:08):
get to the reality point about a marriage. They started
all with a success story and later went downhill. I
was married for exactly three years, a year prior to
my son being born. And this is the early nineteen nineties.
I was in my thirties, early thirties and my wife
was nineteen at the time, and it was accessful, working,
(21:32):
past wealthy. It depends on marriage, right, So there were issues.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
There were issues from the start. For you, guys, you were.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
A little bit of goodness. She's my wife, thought the
relationship is so machine them she made design her clothes
and sold them a market, great prices.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So when did you see that it.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Was going wrong? When did you decide to get out
of that marriage?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, just the story short. Second year into the marriage,
my mom died and elect us an inheritancey and it
was like winning success the first of versions of and
as I said, we were working class, wealthy in dependent families,
so were relocated from a beached shop to a middle
(22:15):
class area like mong of Phone and Eden lived on
Burley Road in the free room, driller, big, big backyard gardens.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Everything changes.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
What about you? What about your son? Tell us about
how you managed that.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
My son was golf, he had the nappies, had to
Cartoni nor top class kPr dairy products. But we took
on some we weren't prepared for. When we moved to
a middle class area like Epsom or Mongaphone, we took
on middle class baaries and manners in which that became
leefal in the wrong minds, in the wrong hands. We
(22:52):
were both by him. It was the wealth they.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
How did you navigate? How did you navigate the parenting
when you split? You obviously do you have a good
relationship with your son? Have you manage to you know,
have a have a good co parenting relationship?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, it looked at what gaza incams are in the
boomerang culture might have to not before the divorce. There
was the separation that you have to eagerly undertake. And
my son went with my wife former wife, and there
was until the divorce settlement came through that I discussed
my mind that I was a hell of a lonely
(23:29):
male and that I'd be wanting to take on the
care of our son, and she was against it. He
was against it. But we lifted up to my three
year old son to decide for himself who liked to
live with, and he chose me.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Judge, was there a judge involved in this that some
schedule proceedings or not.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
No, this is the mid nineteen nineties when lifestyle under Winston,
Peters and boldrooms very well.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I studied family law before that time, and judges used
to have a bit of involvement in these things anyway.
But actually, that's a hell of a thing to ask
a three year on what you want. I mean, I'm
not sure.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
I'm not sure that they're capable of making a really
informed decision at that age, but hey, yeah it happened.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I've got a few texts here, just because our first
couple of callers were women who were talking about guys
who didn't really step up as fathers, who are just saying, look,
this is not about how do I sum it up,
It's not a battle of the sexes. We've had a
couple of women talking about their relationships. It's two women
talking about their partners and how maybe they didn't step
up then they did. That's all right. It's not an
attack on men. Women sharing their.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
Stories and everybody's situation is very unique to them, and
we are hearing people's, you know, individual stories. We are
not throwing a net, casting a net and pulling everyone in.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Actually, I don't know. It used to be that it
was sort of a presumption that when there was a
custody dispute, because a lot of the you know, when
couples split up, it's not like it's necessarily easy decision
that obviously they go with mum or than with dad,
but that you did used to be a presumption in
favor of mums. I don't know how that play out
in the family courts these days.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Do you have any I don't have any statistics on that,
but certainly there's been a little bit more leaning into
the necessity for strong relationships with fathers if they are
the one moving out of the house where the children
are housed. Certainly, you know, there's a lot more fatherly
or paternal input into children's lives these days, and we're
(25:29):
more aware of it. I mean you'd probably see that.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean I'm just curious. I mean I haven't
practiced law for donkeys.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
In fact, I always avoided family law like the plague,
because I just didn't That's the thing when you come
out as a law graduate and you're supposed to handle
sort of things like divorce when you barely had in
your relationships yourself. I just was like, there's no way
I want to handle any of the stuff. I used
to farm it out to another lawyer who was quite
good at it, and we like, you want to have
this case because I just found it too stressful because
the stakes they're just they're.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
So high, and I guess it's hard when you don't
have any experience or input to add to that equation.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
You have no content. I felt like a little bit difficut,
absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
I choose psychology over law any day.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Here's a text says I think a lot of people
think that losing the spark means it's time for divorce,
when really relationships ebb and flow by nature.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
I hope they don't think that it's wild. I hope
they don't think that losing the spark means that it's
all curtains. Because that text person is all is very right.
It kind of translates into something different. It means that
you can create other pathways of connection. And I mean,
I'm really hoping that there aren't people out there that think, hey,
(26:42):
my marriage is over just because we're not having as
much sex as we did when we first met.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That was that was the elephant in the room. They
hadn't really put it together.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Yeah, I decided to free that elephant and out because
that would be really, really silly.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You know, I should read, I should finish the text
it says. They say it's normal to feel like ship's
passing in the night for a few months. It's okay
to be a sence actually roommates every now and again.
It's all good to then be obsessed with each other
for a month or two, and it's totally normal when
that goes away for a while. Divorces for cheating and
reconcilable I can't even say irreconcilable differences, et cetera. Divorce
(27:21):
is not for when you've been busy for a few
months and haven't had a chance for a date night.
I think that's been forgotten in the modern day. I
actually do sort of think there's something to that.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
I think that is a very, very spark exactly crafted text.
I love it because it's brought up so much stuff.
You know, when we are busy and in relationships and
we have been in that relationship for a few years
or however long, Well, what I'm saying is there's some
longevity to that relationship. Of course, there are going to
be those moments of ebb and flow. I absolutely love
(27:55):
what that person has said.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Because it's from Cynthia. So thank you, Cynthia. Nice method message.
We will take a break and be back in a
It is by the way, we love your How did
you handle divorce? How did you handle the decision? And
how did your factor in the kids? The children? Did
you stay together for a bit longer for that reason
and then think okay, now it's time to go, or
(28:16):
did you cut and run or how did you manage
it when you did split up? Eight hundred eighty ten
eighty it's twenty two minutes to six news Talks. He'd
be News Talk said be We're talking divorce on the
Parents Squad and with Sarah Chatwin she's a psychologist at
Mind Works. She's with us, actually, Sarah, I think, what
are the questions? Obviously, look, I think it's easy. You know,
(28:39):
in the world of talkbacks sometimes you know, people would say, oh,
people get divorced too easily, and all that sort of stuff.
And I think, unless you are just a fly by night,
you know, flibbert, a gibbit, with not much thought for
anyone but yourself, everyone puts a lot of thought into
these questions.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I would have to tell you that anybody that has
been through Mike Clinic over the past twenty eight years
has put a lot of thought into separation and divorce
prior to actually pulling any pin or cutting any cord.
It's a really big deal.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
How much should people? Because I think a lot of
the time, if people are concerned about their relationship and
they're thinking, you know, of divorce, they'll talk about it
with everyone but their partner. And when should you? I mean,
I tend to think that that probably is a bit
of a mistake, because if you've grown a partner, you're
(29:28):
not conversing. You know, there are ways to check out
when you know whether there's a hope for your relationship.
I believe. But if all you're talking to are your
mates and maybe even some of your friends, you don't
like your partner, of course it's going to be history.
So when should you?
Speaker 5 (29:41):
That could be a fatal error that a lot of
people make, because when you talk to friends, when you
talk to family members, you are dealing with people who
have a gender. They might love you, they might be
jealous of you, they might hate you.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
They if they might think they're doing you a favor
by supporting your.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Winging yes and enabling so one, I thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
That's all right, I'm get a.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Psychologists here today. So I think that that could be
a fatal error that a lot of people make. Certainly,
it is also not nice to be talking behind your
partner's back about something that they're connected into. I would
always suggest.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I would say it's essential for some people, though, because
sometimes you want if you've got a best friend and
you just want to you want a vent. I mean,
you've got to have that spaced event.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
You've got to be You've got to have some sense
that your friend will then then not take a position
against your partner. You've got to have a sense that
your friend will just purely be a reflective kind of
a board or a mirror, and that they won't add
anything to fuel that divorce or separation fire. Now, I
(30:46):
don't know how many of us could say that our
best friends wouldn't just slightly have our best interests more
at heart than another person.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
You've got problem is that having your when a friend
has what they think is their friend's best interests at heart,
they might not if they are removing the possibilities right
of exploring conciliation or reconciliation.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Absolutely true. And that is why if you go and
sit in front of somebody who doesn't know you, or
like you or dislike you, they are a completely objective
person that perhaps you've had a quick chat to, you know,
in your search for psychologists or people who you think
could be able to help you navigate this space, this
landscape that's very tricky. They are probably your best bet.
(31:29):
And if it costs you a little bit of money,
that's okay, because they will give you tools and suggestions
and tips to take away and to use in this situation.
And then you don't burden any friends or any family members,
and you have this lovely new perspective on things that
can be very helpful because I think, oh, friends, family members, Boy,
that's loaded. You know, that's a little bit of a
(31:51):
loaded way.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Often do people go through counseling and decide that they're
going to give it another shot?
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Well, I would say most of my clients absolutely, because
you talk about time frames. You can't make a decision
like this, you know, in a second. No, I would
say that most everybody that comes to me to begin
with wants to make some positive changes and modifications within
themselves and then thus within the relationship. If they find
(32:17):
along the journey that the modifications are not enough for
they're not happening, you know, then you move into the
territory of okay, well what are my other options? So
I absolutely think it's it's totally a journey and you
never know. I mean I would have thought back in
the day, you know, when I was first practicing, that
infidelity was a game breaker, because that is awful. If
(32:39):
you are in a relationship and you decide that you're
going to be with somebody else but not tell your husband, wife, partner, whatever.
I mean, I would have thought that was a game breaker.
Not so today, people can you know, they can talk
it through and if it is okay, and if it
is workable, I mean, some couples have even got through
what you and I might think is, you know, are
(33:00):
really pretty critically well. The law actually says that it's
pretty hard to get through too, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I've actually, I mean this is going back, but I
actually were aware of cases where people have really been
at loggerheads and they're but basically haven't. They haven't had
a communicative relationship with each other for a long time,
and so the resentment is built and then by virtue
of venting their sort of loathing for each other. Funny
(33:26):
thing is, I've actually seen it where they've vented it
all and then they've realized that they've actually for finally
shared their feelings and they've ended up reconciling and working
it up because they started talking.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
Because they've got rid of the rubbish. It's like having
a rubbish bin that's overloaded and starting to you know,
smell pretty bad, and then you're going empty y it,
and then you go, well, I actually quite like this person.
I mean, there's not that many.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You really bloody drive me nuts, but hey, it's sort
of that that I had in mind in terms of
how far you need to explore the conciliation or reconciliation
before you, you know, especially when they're I think you
at least if you're a family it's easy. If you're
a single person, you know, and you've just got bored
and you're twenty three years old or whatever, and that's it. Okay,
(34:14):
relationship shift part all the time. But when there's family involved,
I think that you know, everyone deserves to explore everything
so you know you've made the right decision.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
So family, children, you know, all of that adds a
layer of complexity that you need to work through. So
I would suggest that there is work to be done
as opposed to a twenty three year old dating somebody
with no children, no mortgage, nothing, But that doesn't mean
that that relationship couldn't be a relationship that lasts. And
certainly if you're cut up enough about it and you
really are investing a lot of time and energy, thought
(34:45):
energy in it, talking to somebody would be helpful as well,
but certainly with children and time. You know, if you've
been in a twenty year relationship, going to somebody and
having a chat and just leaving family and friends out
of it and not taking all this armchair advice on board,
but perhaps choosing somebody who comes from a place of
(35:06):
intellectual rigord in that field so that they can point
you in the direction that might be really helpful to
bring things back.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
How do counselor I mean, is there a common sort
of model for how counseling it works between couples? I mean,
because a lot of the time each person will get
their own counseling and then they'll have a sort of
know how does it work when them? How often do
we have the cliche? I don't mean cliche, but you know,
you can imagine husband and wife sitting there in front
of a counselor and having it out.
Speaker 5 (35:33):
Oh no, there's couples counseling, So husband and wife go.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
To that the most common form of counseling as opposed
to mum talks. You know, one talks to one counselor
another one talks to another one.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Well, often you have people presenting at their own times
with different issues. So it might be that someone in
a relationship is feeling a certain way, so they decide
that they need to go and get some individual help
and some advice, some tips, and then the other person
may not go, and you might be able to resolve
things for that person and things you know flow very well.
(36:05):
But absolutely psychologists see couples. That's couples there.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Well because it makes sort of sense that you would
have one person moderating for two people, because it.
Speaker 5 (36:14):
Works very well in a lot of scenarios. And then
sometimes after the couple's therapy, the individual components of that couple,
that the husband and wife or you know, husband and husband,
whoever there is, they choose to go on with some
form of singular therapy if that if that's what they
find helps them. I mean, in this country, nothing is sanctioned.
(36:36):
You can choose, You have a choice over how it
plays out.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
And if people actually do want to get some counsel
and they want to contact mind Works, how do they
do that?
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Hey, they can hit the old dot mind workstock code
on n Z and ring email, have a bit of
a chat and you know, see how they feel, and
also check out other great psychologists that we have in
this country.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Hey, great to see us, Sarah.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Oh thanks Tim. Always nice to see you, Tea.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
We'll see you again next time. Absolutely, that wraps the
Parents Squad. We'll be back to wrap Sport with Nathan
limbs with us in just a moment, it is ten
minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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