After their loss in Cape Town, the All Blacks are looking to wrestle back the momentum in Rugby's Greatest Rivalry.
The third test is back in Johannesburg, and the Kiwi side will be aiming to use their pace and fitness to outrun the Springboks' forwards.
Former All Black Justin Marshall told Piney they're both a younger and fitter side than the more experienced Springboks, which gives them a real advantage.
He says the team is also obviously confident in their ability to deal with the altitude, and that it'd be a bigger problem for the South African side than it is for them.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Pine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Get you back to rugby's greatest rivalry.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Marshall gets away from him. This is dangerous for New Zealand.
Look at the agility of Marshall and then Robin Brook.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
And this will be a try for Ian Jones.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
No it won't. It's a try for Jeff Wilson. And
it's that man, Justin Marshall.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
The scrum half, who's creating all sorts of problems for
South Africa. Yeah, 81 tests, former All Blacks halfback Justin
Marshall is with us. I know there's a fourth test
coming up in Baltimore next week, Justin, but this has
the feel, for me anyway, of a decider. How does
it feel to you?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Mate, it absolutely feels that way.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Look, obviously, the first two tests have delivered in spades.
Both of them had drama. Both of them had excitement.
And they were real genuine contests. You know, one all.
And now we go to, yeah, what they call Soccer
City here. Huge crowd. And absolutely, look, at the end
of the day, If the All Blacks could walk away
(01:12):
from South Africa with two wins on their soil, you know,
Baltimore would be massively important and it's a series that
the All Blacks would be desperate to win. But to
beat the world champions, back-to-back world champions on their own soil,
given circumstances that, It happened at the start of the year,
new coach, new set-up and everything. It would be one
(01:34):
of the biggest wins, I think, that the All Blacks
have had in a very long time and would be
a significant one.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Let's look at the changes that Dave Rooney has made
to the All Blacks side for this one. Asafo Amor
comes in to start at hooker. Samasoni Tokayahua on the bench.
Cody Taylor won't play any part. Sam Dowery comes into
the second row with Fabian Holland moving to the bench.
And Peter Larkai starts at blindside. What do you make
of those changes? in the forwards by Dave Rennie?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Well, I guess, you know, obviously he's looking for some
fresh legs.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
You know, this has been an arduous tour, no doubt
about it, and it has been massively combative. The physicality's
been very evident, and it takes its toll. Like, when
you think about the Fabian Holland thing, which many probably
is one of the big decisions that Dave Rennie has made,
You have to say he went in here with basically
(02:27):
no minutes behind him. Coming into South Africa and performing
the way that he has, he's probably been the standout
or one of the standout players on the tour. But
that was always going to take its toll on a
guy that hasn't played a lot of rugby recently. So
perhaps that's just to freshen up from him, bring him
(02:47):
off the bench. And it creates a slightly different look
to that second row as well as a different look
to the back row. So, you know, all I've talked
about though at the end of the day is the
fact that they've always wanted height in their line out
and they've been very adamant on that and that's why
they wanted to move Tupu Vai to the side of
the scrub to give them that ability to make sure
(03:09):
that they have line out height across the board. That
was slightly dysfunctional last weekend. It wasn't terrible, but they
did have some clunkiness in their line out. So hopefully
the changes that they've made are possibly a reaction to that.
And they feel that they, even though we haven't got
ball loose forwards, when you look at that loose forward
(03:31):
back row combination, that's not really adding to our line out.
But obviously there's something they see there by bringing Sam
Derry in. to that mix that really helps that. So
that's that change. And then obviously a lot of people
have been really impressed with the way that Safua Omoa
has played coming off the bench. And again, I think
that's just looking for somebody that's going to be slightly fresher.
(03:54):
Cody Taylor's played a lot of minutes on this tour
to just give us some more oomph in.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
That front row.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
By contrast, no changes in the backs and no changes
in the back reserves either. Did you think Dave Rooney
might tinker particularly with his backline reserves?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yeah, I did actually, to be perfectly honest. Look, particularly
if the All Blacks get into a situation like last
weekend when they needed to chase the game. And I
think there's been a little bit of chat around and
I'm kind of on the same page with this around
the form of Rico Ioane who has been As all
of the counts as well, been very, very good in camp.
(04:34):
Coming back from Leinster seems like he's just a different man,
playing probably his best rugby at the moment. Whether or
not having him coming onto the bench could have just
provided something different when you're chasing the game. You know,
like I've used Anton Leonard-Brown quite regularly to come on,
but we've got enough punch in the midfield. It's like
(04:55):
if we have to move some players around, we've got
the ability to do that and bring in Rico on.
He can play centre, he can play wing. Perhaps a
Tava Tava-Naiwa who can again play 12, 13. He can
play winger as well. When you're needing just something completely
different that the Springboks haven't seen in the first two tests,
just to freshen up the fact that if we have
(05:17):
to chase the game, can those players provide that?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
But no, you're right.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
They've gone for the same players, which haven't let anybody down.
Anton hasn't let anybody down. Josh Morby hasn't let anybody down.
But it's the same picture for the All Blacks. And, mate,
I'm just thinking, you know, for the Springboks, sorry, and
I'm just thinking, OK, well... Did we want to really
show something different, particularly when we are under pressure or having.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
To chase the game?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
But obviously they feel secure in those players, and so
they've stuck with consistency and belief, really.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Justin, where do the big improvements have to come? What
do the All Blacks need to do better compared to
what they did in the second test in Cape Town?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Extricate errors, just be more accurate. The weekend, they were,
to a degree, the architect of their own demise. They
started poorly. They allowed the spring box into the game early,
and that was through their own errors, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Poor decisions off some of their kickoffs.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I know we dropped one kickoff after scoring points in
the very first kickoff of the game. Geordie Barrett just
kicked it out and only gained about 10 metres, and
all of a sudden, we're under the pump. I think
they'll look at some of the decisions and the errors
that they made in that game that cost them pressure
and then eventually cost them points. If they can extricate
them from the game, I feel we've been the better
(06:40):
side over the two test matches. We've scored nine tries
against the Springboks, against their blitz defence. So we are
more than capable of opening them up. That's just the tries. Equally,
there's been a serious amount of line breaks which haven't
resulted in tries, but have put the Springboks under massive pressure.
The only reason that we bring the Springboks back into
(07:01):
the game was just by making some poor decisions.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And some of those decisions.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
In the Cape Town Test breakdown where the player looked
a little indecisive, whereas at Alice Park, particularly in the
second half, just looked decisive. When you're indecisive, it meant
that our cleaners got to the ball late and we
conceded turnovers at the breakdown, which again got the Springboks
into the game. And the other side of it is
you make errors regularly. against the Springboks, you invite them
(07:26):
into their wheelhouse, and their wheelhouse is scrum and line-out.
So take them out of the game, and I feel,
like I said over this series, we have been the
better side, and I'm confident we'll win this game.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Back to altitude as well, and there's been a lot
of talk about playing at altitude, but does playing at
altitude actually suit the All Blacks better than the Springboks?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, great question, mate. I certainly feel that the All
Blacks are a fitter side. You know, there's no doubt
about it. Like you saw that in Cape Town. Once
they sort of finally recognised their desperation and decided to
move the ball around a bit from side to side,
they had the Springboks, you know, really moving and moving defensively.
(08:13):
And you could see the fatigue in the Springboks equally
at Alice Park in the second half there.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
There's been a lot of hands on hips. At the
end of the day, they are not a young side,
the Springbok side. They are a massively experienced side.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Centurions across the park, across the back line and the
forward back. But that doesn't happen when you're 23 or 24.
That means you're into your 30s, early 30s. So you
don't have the lungs of some of the younger players.
So the All Blacks certainly have I feel a real
advantage there and I feel we're a fitter side. They're
(08:46):
obviously very, very confident in the fact that altitude for
them is not a problem and they are a fitter
side and they can handle it because they decided to
stay in Cape Town until Wednesday. And the sort of
rule of thumb is for altitude, minimum kind of five
days to get yourself right. So they obviously believe that
that's not a problem for them, that the altitude will
be more of a problem for the Springboks than them.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
So they're backing themselves in that regard.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, fascinating little sideline to the whole thing. Just to finish, Marcy,
being back in South Africa for you personally and being
there for a prolonged period while this tour has been
going on, how much does that bring back memories for
you of the 1995 Rugby World Cup, obviously, but also
that historic series win over South Africa in 1996.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Incredible memories.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And being here and being a part of this tour
again in a different capacity, not with the boots on
and seeing what the supporters went through in 1996, the
media and the South African public, because you're intermingled with that.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
As a player, you're quite separated from it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
But it's just been just such a breath of fresh
air to see this old school tour come back and
the All Blacks get to the provinces, allow people that
love and admire the All Blacks here in this country,
because there's a massive amount of respect, to actually make
it tangible that they can touch the All Blacks. And
a lot of them haven't got the ability to go
(10:11):
to where the big test match venues are to see
the All Blacks. So to have them in the provinces,
you know, in Durban and again in Cape Town and
playing against those sides is what rugby's all about because
it makes it real for people and it doesn't mean
that they're only always having to watch them on TV
and to see the reaction of everybody here in South
(10:32):
Africa to have the All Blacks in this country for
this amount of time, the way that they've embraced it
has just been, you know, real satisfying and it made
me recognise what we did in 1996 to have to try.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And win here Their passion for rugby is incredible.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
It's closest to our country that I've ever seen. And they,
matter of fact, they want to completely annihilate us on
the field, but they absolutely love us off the field.
And that's just been so evident on this tour so far.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
It's been brilliant. Amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Amazing stuff. Looking forward to your coverage alongside your old mate,
Geoff Wilson.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Of course, Geoff.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Mick Tainch on the mic for Sky Sport. Thanks for
joining us as always, Marshy. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Thanks for having me as always. Cheers.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Good on you, mate. That's Justin Marshall joining us out
of South Africa. We have full live commentary on Newstalk ZB,
of course, as well from just after three o'clock, Elliot
Smith and Gregor Paul.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Pine, listen live
to Newstalk ZB Weekends from Midday or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Pine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Get you back to rugby's greatest rivalry.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Marshall gets away from him. This is dangerous for New Zealand.
Look at the agility of Marshall and then Robin Brook.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
And this will be a try for Ian Jones.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
No it won't. It's a try for Jeff Wilson. And
it's that man, Justin Marshall.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
The scrum half, who's creating all sorts of problems for
South Africa. Yeah, 81 tests, former All Blacks halfback Justin
Marshall is with us. I know there's a fourth test
coming up in Baltimore next week, Justin, but this has
the feel, for me anyway, of a decider. How does
it feel to you?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Mate, it absolutely feels that way.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Look, obviously, the first two tests have delivered in spades.
Both of them had drama. Both of them had excitement.
And they were real genuine contests. You know, one all.
And now we go to, yeah, what they call Soccer
City here. Huge crowd. And absolutely, look, at the end
of the day, If the All Blacks could walk away
(01:12):
from South Africa with two wins on their soil, you know,
Baltimore would be massively important and it's a series that
the All Blacks would be desperate to win. But to
beat the world champions, back-to-back world champions on their own soil,
given circumstances that, It happened at the start of the year,
new coach, new set-up and everything. It would be one
(01:34):
of the biggest wins, I think, that the All Blacks
have had in a very long time and would be
a significant one.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Let's look at the changes that Dave Rooney has made
to the All Blacks side for this one. Asafo Amor
comes in to start at hooker. Samasoni Tokayahua on the bench.
Cody Taylor won't play any part. Sam Dowery comes into
the second row with Fabian Holland moving to the bench.
And Peter Larkai starts at blindside. What do you make
of those changes? in the forwards by Dave Rennie?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Well, I guess, you know, obviously he's looking for some
fresh legs.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
You know, this has been an arduous tour, no doubt
about it, and it has been massively combative. The physicality's
been very evident, and it takes its toll. Like, when
you think about the Fabian Holland thing, which many probably
is one of the big decisions that Dave Rennie has made,
You have to say he went in here with basically
(02:27):
no minutes behind him. Coming into South Africa and performing
the way that he has, he's probably been the standout
or one of the standout players on the tour. But
that was always going to take its toll on a
guy that hasn't played a lot of rugby recently. So
perhaps that's just to freshen up from him, bring him
(02:47):
off the bench. And it creates a slightly different look
to that second row as well as a different look
to the back row. So, you know, all I've talked
about though at the end of the day is the
fact that they've always wanted height in their line out
and they've been very adamant on that and that's why
they wanted to move Tupu Vai to the side of
the scrub to give them that ability to make sure
(03:09):
that they have line out height across the board. That
was slightly dysfunctional last weekend. It wasn't terrible, but they
did have some clunkiness in their line out. So hopefully
the changes that they've made are possibly a reaction to that.
And they feel that they, even though we haven't got
ball loose forwards, when you look at that loose forward
(03:31):
back row combination, that's not really adding to our line out.
But obviously there's something they see there by bringing Sam
Derry in. to that mix that really helps that. So
that's that change. And then obviously a lot of people
have been really impressed with the way that Safua Omoa
has played coming off the bench. And again, I think
that's just looking for somebody that's going to be slightly fresher.
(03:54):
Cody Taylor's played a lot of minutes on this tour
to just give us some more oomph in.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
That front row.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
By contrast, no changes in the backs and no changes
in the back reserves either. Did you think Dave Rooney
might tinker particularly with his backline reserves?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yeah, I did actually, to be perfectly honest. Look, particularly
if the All Blacks get into a situation like last
weekend when they needed to chase the game. And I
think there's been a little bit of chat around and
I'm kind of on the same page with this around
the form of Rico Ioane who has been As all
of the counts as well, been very, very good in camp.
(04:34):
Coming back from Leinster seems like he's just a different man,
playing probably his best rugby at the moment. Whether or
not having him coming onto the bench could have just
provided something different when you're chasing the game. You know,
like I've used Anton Leonard-Brown quite regularly to come on,
but we've got enough punch in the midfield. It's like
(04:55):
if we have to move some players around, we've got
the ability to do that and bring in Rico on.
He can play centre, he can play wing. Perhaps a
Tava Tava-Naiwa who can again play 12, 13. He can
play winger as well. When you're needing just something completely
different that the Springboks haven't seen in the first two tests,
just to freshen up the fact that if we have
(05:17):
to chase the game, can those players provide that?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
But no, you're right.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
They've gone for the same players, which haven't let anybody down.
Anton hasn't let anybody down. Josh Morby hasn't let anybody down.
But it's the same picture for the All Blacks. And, mate,
I'm just thinking, you know, for the Springboks, sorry, and
I'm just thinking, OK, well... Did we want to really
show something different, particularly when we are under pressure or having.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
To chase the game?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
But obviously they feel secure in those players, and so
they've stuck with consistency and belief, really.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Justin, where do the big improvements have to come? What
do the All Blacks need to do better compared to
what they did in the second test in Cape Town?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Extricate errors, just be more accurate. The weekend, they were,
to a degree, the architect of their own demise. They
started poorly. They allowed the spring box into the game early,
and that was through their own errors, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Poor decisions off some of their kickoffs.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I know we dropped one kickoff after scoring points in
the very first kickoff of the game. Geordie Barrett just
kicked it out and only gained about 10 metres, and
all of a sudden, we're under the pump. I think
they'll look at some of the decisions and the errors
that they made in that game that cost them pressure
and then eventually cost them points. If they can extricate
them from the game, I feel we've been the better
(06:40):
side over the two test matches. We've scored nine tries
against the Springboks, against their blitz defence. So we are
more than capable of opening them up. That's just the tries. Equally,
there's been a serious amount of line breaks which haven't
resulted in tries, but have put the Springboks under massive pressure.
The only reason that we bring the Springboks back into
(07:01):
the game was just by making some poor decisions.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And some of those decisions.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
In the Cape Town Test breakdown where the player looked
a little indecisive, whereas at Alice Park, particularly in the
second half, just looked decisive. When you're indecisive, it meant
that our cleaners got to the ball late and we
conceded turnovers at the breakdown, which again got the Springboks
into the game. And the other side of it is
you make errors regularly. against the Springboks, you invite them
(07:26):
into their wheelhouse, and their wheelhouse is scrum and line-out.
So take them out of the game, and I feel,
like I said over this series, we have been the
better side, and I'm confident we'll win this game.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Back to altitude as well, and there's been a lot
of talk about playing at altitude, but does playing at
altitude actually suit the All Blacks better than the Springboks?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, great question, mate. I certainly feel that the All
Blacks are a fitter side. You know, there's no doubt
about it. Like you saw that in Cape Town. Once
they sort of finally recognised their desperation and decided to
move the ball around a bit from side to side,
they had the Springboks, you know, really moving and moving defensively.
(08:13):
And you could see the fatigue in the Springboks equally
at Alice Park in the second half there.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
There's been a lot of hands on hips. At the
end of the day, they are not a young side,
the Springbok side. They are a massively experienced side.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Centurions across the park, across the back line and the
forward back. But that doesn't happen when you're 23 or 24.
That means you're into your 30s, early 30s. So you
don't have the lungs of some of the younger players.
So the All Blacks certainly have I feel a real
advantage there and I feel we're a fitter side. They're
(08:46):
obviously very, very confident in the fact that altitude for
them is not a problem and they are a fitter
side and they can handle it because they decided to
stay in Cape Town until Wednesday. And the sort of
rule of thumb is for altitude, minimum kind of five
days to get yourself right. So they obviously believe that
that's not a problem for them, that the altitude will
be more of a problem for the Springboks than them.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
So they're backing themselves in that regard.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, fascinating little sideline to the whole thing. Just to finish, Marcy,
being back in South Africa for you personally and being
there for a prolonged period while this tour has been
going on, how much does that bring back memories for
you of the 1995 Rugby World Cup, obviously, but also
that historic series win over South Africa in 1996.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Incredible memories.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And being here and being a part of this tour
again in a different capacity, not with the boots on
and seeing what the supporters went through in 1996, the
media and the South African public, because you're intermingled with that.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
As a player, you're quite separated from it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
But it's just been just such a breath of fresh
air to see this old school tour come back and
the All Blacks get to the provinces, allow people that
love and admire the All Blacks here in this country,
because there's a massive amount of respect, to actually make
it tangible that they can touch the All Blacks. And
a lot of them haven't got the ability to go
(10:11):
to where the big test match venues are to see
the All Blacks. So to have them in the provinces,
you know, in Durban and again in Cape Town and
playing against those sides is what rugby's all about because
it makes it real for people and it doesn't mean
that they're only always having to watch them on TV
and to see the reaction of everybody here in South
(10:32):
Africa to have the All Blacks in this country for
this amount of time, the way that they've embraced it
has just been, you know, real satisfying and it made
me recognise what we did in 1996 to have to try.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And win here Their passion for rugby is incredible.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
It's closest to our country that I've ever seen. And they,
matter of fact, they want to completely annihilate us on
the field, but they absolutely love us off the field.
And that's just been so evident on this tour so far.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
It's been brilliant. Amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Amazing stuff. Looking forward to your coverage alongside your old mate,
Geoff Wilson.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Of course, Geoff.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Mick Tainch on the mic for Sky Sport. Thanks for
joining us as always, Marshy. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Thanks for having me as always. Cheers.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Good on you, mate. That's Justin Marshall joining us out
of South Africa. We have full live commentary on Newstalk ZB,
of course, as well from just after three o'clock, Elliot
Smith and Gregor Paul.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Pine, listen live
to Newstalk ZB Weekends from Midday or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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