Rugby's Greatest Rivalry is back in Johannesburg, the score tied at one win a piece.
Both the All Blacks and the Springboks will be looking to seize control of the series before it heads offshore, the final test being played in Baltimore.
South African rugby legend Naas Botha told Piney we're looking at a serious third test.
He compared it to a boxing match, saying someone needs to go for the knockout now, because if you can get the edge for Baltimore, the other side will be forced to catch up or lose.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Pine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Few people understand the rugby relationship between South Africa and
New Zealand quite like our lead-off guest today.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Support from Heldenhuis.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Andy Fisser was there.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Serpentine to Nassbota. Takes his time. Drops for goal.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It's there.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Nassbota skips up. And it's word.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So they are going to try for the steamroller.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's Borta, no running wide.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
And threw it under the bar.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Nice Borta.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Looking for support.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
He's got it from Henny Becker.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Just 10 metres out. Down and up.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
The referee was involved. It's back for the drop kick
from Borta. And that's the first points on the board
and Borta has done it again.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Nass Borta, one of the truly great Springbok fly halves.
He earned 28 test caps for South Africa, captained Northern
Transvaal for more than a decade and was at the
heart of some extraordinary moments in the history of this rivalry.
He was there for the deeply controversial 1981 World Cup.
Springbok Tour of New Zealand when rugby became the centre
(01:12):
of a much wider political and social confrontation. Five years
later he played against the New Zealand Cavaliers when the
unofficial All Black side toured South Africa and then in
1992 he was part of the Springbok team that returned
to official international rugby and played against the All Blacks
at Alice Park. Now more than three decades later South
(01:33):
Africa and New heading into tomorrow morning's third test in Soweto.
Nas Porter joins us from his home in the United States. Nas,
great to get the chance to chat to you. Let's
start with the present before we look back on your
career and your clashes with the All Blacks. South Africa
(01:54):
and New Zealand locked at one test each. How have
you been viewing this series after the first two tests?
And what are your thoughts about where the third test
might be won or lost?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised with the first two.
I thought New Zealand really played according to their strengths,
playing it through their hands quite wide in the first
one and put South Africa for once under pressure because
you could see in the last 15 minutes it was
a different Springbok side. I think they struggled a little bit.
(02:30):
But then the second test, I thought that New Zealand
might go in with, let's say, the same mentality. And
then suddenly, the first half, they were trying to play
a kicking game that I didn't really understand. It was
more giving ball away instead of being very tactical and
use that to their advantage by putting the spring box
(02:52):
under pressure again. I never got that feeling. And then
in the last 15 minutes, they actually got it together again.
They scored some very nice tries. But I thought at
one stage, they not... they're not going to get close
enough to actually sneak that second one. And I think
(03:13):
after two, we're sitting in a pretty situation where we've
seen some of New Zealand's brilliance. We've seen the first
half of the second test in Africa really playing, I think,
very controlled rugby, making less mistakes than in the first one.
(03:33):
And now we're looking at the third one, But there's
only one question that I still raise. Is the Type
5 of New Zealand strong enough to just match South
Africa up front? Because you've heard and I've heard. And
we're going a little bit beyond speculation. You know and
(03:56):
I know that's quite dangerous. And I don't like to
do that. And we're not in the inner circles to
see how that train works. what they plan, how players' performance.
We don't know that. We're on the outside. And I
think we're looking for a serious third test because it's
(04:18):
like two boxes. I think the first six rounds is
done now. Now somebody needs to go for the knockout
now because if you can get the edge now, coming
to Baltimore, it's going to be you need to catch
up or you're going to lose.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, let's continue with that boxing analogy then, Nas. Who
has the capacity, more so of these two sides, to
land those blows in this third test that will give
them the advantage?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Okay, let's stick to New Zealand first, okay? Saying that
you've got a black jersey, so we'll stick to that.
I believe they shouldn't deviate too much of what they
did in the first test. That was really well played
by New Zealand. Forget that South Africa dominated a little
(05:08):
bit in the phases. The way they played, they played
the ball so quickly away from the contact point that
you could see, even with the South African rush defence,
they sort of outsmarted. I don't know if you can
recall in the last 10 minutes, even in the second test,
they created their own space by playing a lot deeper defensively.
(05:30):
They had the first line of attackers and then they
had quite a deep second line of defence. And as
soon as they felt the pressure on the first line,
they sort of played it quite deep. And I always say,
if you feel pressure, just create your own space. For
a fly-off, if you feel the guys in your face
the whole time, just go a yard deeper. That's as
(05:53):
simple as that. Instead of trying to take people on,
trying to play the rash part. So I don't think
New Zealand needs to I deviate too much of the
first test mentality, the way that I played it. Played
exceptional hand skills. I love that. But we always know
that that is one thing New Zealand can do. Okay.
(06:15):
In the past two years, last two years, there were
a number of question marks. And I'm going to take
you through that because that's bringing me closer to my answer.
Is that how many times in the last two years,
and you can't put that, blame on the coaching, okay,
is how many times did your forwards knock the ball on?
(06:35):
Just from a scrum off, passing to a forward, he
just knocked it on. Then in the contact situation, he
just lost the ball. The 50-50 pass is never stuck.
Now the question is, was the 50-50 pass on or
wasn't it on? So now suddenly, I think Dave Rennie
did something, he put a lot of discipline into And
(06:58):
discipline doesn't mean fighting. Forget that. Discipline means if the
right pass is on, you do the right pass. And
I think that's the big difference for me from what
we've seen in the last two years. And suddenly, because
if you think you only had July, he only had
July to figure things out. And he really had a
(07:18):
great first test against South Africa. And I thought if
New Zealand played a little bit different in the first half,
in the second test, It might have been a different
ball game. But as you know and I know, under pressure,
you make some silly decision-making. And I think that cost him. Now,
let's go to the box now. The box believe they've
(07:40):
got the pack of forwards. They can scrum well. But
the thing is, where the box need to adapt a
little bit, it's fine to scrum the guy. And I
think we've also realised with the referee, but saying, if
the ball is at the feet of the number eight,
you play it. Even if it's going down in the front,
you play. And I actually like that. Yes, it's maybe
(08:03):
not to the advantage of the dominant scrum, but I
actually like that because the ball is out. And let's
be honest, at a lower level, scrums is actually quite
a dangerous contact point. That's why I always say, if
a scrum feels pressure, if a player feels pressure, break up.
(08:23):
Because there's nothing really that can happen if you break up.
But they tend to penalize that more than going down.
We're going down in the scrum. And it's quite dangerous
for me. So I always feel the safer way is
going up. Okay. But, okay, so we've seen. So the
question now is, are the box going to be allowed
(08:47):
to be dominant in the scrum? Because if the ball
is at the number eight speed and the ref said,
let's play, Then it doesn't help if you scrum. If
the front throws down, where are you actually going? And
we saw also in the first test, I didn't see
too much about the midfield of South Africa. They played
(09:09):
all well. Let's be fair. Both teams were two internationals.
Nobody really played badly. Nobody. But I didn't feel our
midfield did a great job in the first test. In
the second test, It was a new dynamic. They really
played well. D'Alende and Krill, they really played. But that's
(09:30):
the direct game. That's the way we play. You guys
don't play the direct game. Jordy Barrett, he likes the contact.
He doesn't shy away. But the hands is actually more
the thing. With the rush defence, if you get it wider,
then there's definitely space on the outside. The thing that
(09:51):
I felt is, In the second test, New Zealand thought
by breaking the advantage line, let's use the grabber. But
the grabber means it's a one-two bounce up in your
own hands and you keep playing. Those grubbers were like 10,
15 metres. Now that's not a grubber. That's not a
ball that you can retain.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Amazing piece of analysis there, Nass. In your latest drop-in
podcast episode, you addressed the late changes that Rasia Rasmus
made to his side in the second test. There was
the change he made the day before the game and
then the front row change He made an hour before kickoff.
You made the point that you're okay with it. It's
inside the rules. Can you just expand on your thinking
(10:30):
with regard to Rassi's tactics in that sense?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Okay, let's say we play the two coaches. You're coaching
the All Blacks. I'm coaching the Springboks. Does it really
help me to know who's playing on the weekend? We've
seen these guys. We've got guys analysing every single player
in detail. The guy that I saw in July for
(10:57):
the first time, because I'm missing a little bit of
super rugby, Ruben Love, I think he's absolutely fantastic. He's
really a great flyer. Roy God, we know. He's just
a great scrummer. So your halfbacks that I felt was
a problem in the last two years because they couldn't
decide who's the better tech. Now you've got two great techs.
(11:20):
We've got three, but you've got two. Okay. But I mean,
In two countries, we've got five great fly-offs, you know.
I think we need to feel good about it. So
that's where, can you really analyze? I always say, let's
take a line out. Doesn't matter if you know the course.
(11:40):
Doesn't matter if you know the course, okay. If I
throw it correctly and my guy jump, you're never going
to get to the ball. Let's be fair now. If
you scrum well and I scrum well and the scrum
is going straight, okay, not walking around, just going straight, okay,
(12:01):
then that's the only aspect in rugby where you can
actually bully me because you're stronger than me. That's the
only one. See, if you take, let's say a ruck
situation or whatever, okay, you can't bully me unless you're
not part of the ruck, you run in from the
back and hit me with the shoulder. That's not Boulie,
(12:24):
that's playing outside the laws. I'm not too fond of that, okay?
So where's the only situation? A fantastic tackle. We actually
lost Joachim Janssen during the week, okay? And if you
can recall the tackle on Wayne Cottrell, that was one
(12:46):
heavy tackle. See, that's a situation, but that's a one-on-one
situation How many times in a game? Maybe once, twice,
maximum four or five times where one tackle can actually
dominate a player. But the scrum is the only thing.
So South Africa needs to be very careful and they
need to read the ref very quickly how he's going
(13:09):
to handle it. If they feel, okay, he's not going
to allow them to keep scrumming, then just put the
pressure on and get wide. And don't keep scrumming because
then your loose forwards stay tight And the All Blacks
with their hands is going to beat us on the outside.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
What is it about this rivalry, Nass, over here in
New Zealand? It's all anybody is talking about. I'm sure
it's the same in South Africa. What is it about
this rivalry between the Springboks and the All Blacks that
gets our blood pumping so much?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I believe it's, you guys feel it's like a religion. Okay. I'm, Listen,
I need to be extremely careful how I'm going to
let this come out, okay? If you take New Zealand,
fantastic country, small country. How many ships? Was it 30 million, whatever?
(14:09):
I don't know, okay? Luckily, no snakes. That's the one
thing I loved about New Zealand. There's no snakes, okay?
What else? Give me what else are you giving you?
The world. You're giving them the All Blacks. Rugby, yes. Rugby. Yes,
you're giving them netball, you're giving them cricket, but what
(14:30):
are you actually giving the world that every news broadcaster
can talk about? The All Blacks. Okay? Now, South Africa,
they're in a difficult situation at the moment. You know,
there's a little bit of a political turmoil. This, that.
Jobs is not really all... that great, and, and, and, and.
(14:53):
So what do people have? They have the Springbok. And
I think, you know, apart from starting in 1921, okay,
and it's only a rumour that I was there, I
wasn't there, okay? It's only a rumour, okay? But if
you take 1921, and then, as I said on a
couple of occasions, it's quite nice to say, I played
(15:16):
curtain races for the 70 All Blacks, as a under
13 provincial rugby player. Then as an under 20 player,
I played curtain raisers for Andy Leslie. And you know,
I don't know if you know, Andy Leslie was also
your softball captain. I played against him that November in
(15:37):
1976 for my province. Okay. And then I played him. Okay.
And you don't want to talk about this one, the Cavaliers. Okay.
I know. But we made sure that you won the
World Cup in 87 by preparing your team to the fullest.
I know you guys don't want to hear it, but
it's true. Because what happened in France in the end
(15:59):
of 86? We lost both. We got reinstated. Everyone. So
let's leave that there. And then I was extremely fortunate
to play against them in 92. And we all talked.
And I know this is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, okay?
We all talk about Japan beating South Africa as the
(16:20):
biggest upset ever. We were that close. That close. We
lost the ball going over the line in 92 to
upset the All Blacks. That, according to me, would have
been the biggest shock in world rugby history.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh, Nass, what a delight to chat to you. Just
before you go, I know you're based in the US now. Baltimore,
I think, is a two-and-a-half-hour flight or thereabouts from where
you are in Kansas. Are you going to be in
Baltimore next weekend for the fourth test?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, we're going to. There's a number of South Africans
that will go. So we're looking forward to that. But
it depends on the third test because the last one
is now so important. It's either going to be a
draw unless we have a draw on Saturday. Imagine that one.
(17:16):
Imagine that one. Then everything is on Baltimore. So whoever wins,
the other one needs to make sure they win. So
it's a 2-2. If there's a draw, then that is
the ultimate. Okay. Because somebody needs to take a win here.
So I just, you know, very fortunate. that we're going
(17:39):
to be part of this big occasion. And you spoke
about the rivalry, as I said, from 1921. In East
South Africa, I was actually a little bit more into
baseball than rugby. But when I got really into rugby
as such, I had two things that I would have
loved to. Is to play the British and Irish Lions.
(18:02):
I was fortunate enough to do that in 1918. And
then tour New Zealand in New Zealand. Because I think
if there's two countries you would love to tour as
a player, New Zealand is the one. And I think
South Africa is the other one. Seriously, I think those
two countries, you just love touring. France is totally a
different experience. Europe or the four nations, totally a different experience.
(18:27):
But I think those two countries. And then just a
final word on announcing the teams. Any international player should
be good enough that even if they make 15 chances
before the kick-off, they should be able to adapt and
play whoever is on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Nass, you've given us unbelievable analysis today. You're fondly remembered
here in New Zealand. I was at Athletic Park in 1981, actually,
when you scored 20 points as the Springboks beat the
All Blacks 24-12 that day. Thank you so much for
joining us across New Zealand. Enjoy the third test and
the fourth test in Baltimore where you'll be present. Thanks
(19:09):
again for your time this afternoon.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
You're more than welcome.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Thanks, Nass. Nass, Borta there, the one and only.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Jeepers.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
What about some of the analysis he had there? Make
no mistake, this is the series decider. I know there's
a fourth test next weekend. We just talked about it.
It's in Baltimore, but it's always felt like an add-on,
a commercial add-on, the fourth test. It's a neutral venue. It's,
as I say, it just has always felt like an extra.
(19:39):
Whoever wins tomorrow morning will have won two of the
three test matches in South Africa. and I think can
say we have won the series, the South African segment
of it anyway. I know the trophy will go to Baltimore,
and if it's to... all after the fourth test, they'll
split it in half and take a half each. But
(20:03):
if the All Blacks win tomorrow morning, I think 24
hours from now, we're talking about a series win in
South Africa, just as we would have been in 1996.
Keys for the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Start better.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
In both tests so far, they have been second best
from the opening whistle. It didn't matter too much in
the first test, but it was obvious in that game
that South Africa came out better. Last weekend, the ABs
were behind 7-0 after three minutes. They never led the game.
In fact, of five tests so far under Dave Rennie,
(20:41):
the All Blacks have only scored the first points once.
just the once that was against Ireland at Eden Park.
So starting better has to be a bit of a
work on. Use altitude to your advantage, I would say.
The All Blacks are fitter than the Springboks. That's become obvious.
And when they met at altitude in the first test,
(21:02):
it was the All Blacks who finished much stronger.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Run them around.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Thankfully, running the opposition around is part of the All
Blacks game plan. They want to get the ball wide.
They want to Play with optimism. And that'll work at altitude.
I honestly believe playing at altitude suits the All Blacks
more than the Springboks. Got to be good at set-piece time.
(21:28):
In the first test, the scrum under major pressure. Last weekend,
it was the line-out. Hopefully, with the benefit of those
two test matches under their collective belts, both will function
well tomorrow. Massive test match for Asafo Amoah. the chance
to start a test for the first time this season,
and just his seventh start in 29 test matches. He
(21:53):
has the chance to bring that power game of his,
that undisputed power that he has, into the game from
the start. It's a big call from Dave Rennie, a
really big call, to leave Cody Taylor out, this test centurion,
this tremendously experienced Front row forward, not only out of
the starting side, but out of the 23 altogether.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Big call.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
But it is a chance for Asafo-Wamua to stake his
claim for that number two jersey. He starts for the Hurricanes.
He's been used largely as an impact player for the
All Blacks. I think today or tomorrow morning is a
massive chance for Asafo-Wamua. We can win this game. We
(22:39):
can absolutely win this game. Combine the best parts from
the first two test matches, and we can absolutely win it.
They'll be good too. Of course they will. But it
is not beyond the realms of possibility that the All
Blacks win this test series tomorrow morning at Soweto. And
(23:00):
if you want to call it a four-test series, then they,
by winning tomorrow, deny South Africa the chance to win
the series.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Pine, listen live
to News Talk ZB, weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Pine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Few people understand the rugby relationship between South Africa and
New Zealand quite like our lead-off guest today.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Support from Heldenhuis.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Andy Fisser was there.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Serpentine to Nassbota. Takes his time. Drops for goal.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It's there.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Nassbota skips up. And it's word.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So they are going to try for the steamroller.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's Borta, no running wide.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
And threw it under the bar.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Nice Borta.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Looking for support.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
He's got it from Henny Becker.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Just 10 metres out. Down and up.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
The referee was involved. It's back for the drop kick
from Borta. And that's the first points on the board
and Borta has done it again.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Nass Borta, one of the truly great Springbok fly halves.
He earned 28 test caps for South Africa, captained Northern
Transvaal for more than a decade and was at the
heart of some extraordinary moments in the history of this rivalry.
He was there for the deeply controversial 1981 World Cup.
Springbok Tour of New Zealand when rugby became the centre
(01:12):
of a much wider political and social confrontation. Five years
later he played against the New Zealand Cavaliers when the
unofficial All Black side toured South Africa and then in
1992 he was part of the Springbok team that returned
to official international rugby and played against the All Blacks
at Alice Park. Now more than three decades later South
(01:33):
Africa and New heading into tomorrow morning's third test in Soweto.
Nas Porter joins us from his home in the United States. Nas,
great to get the chance to chat to you. Let's
start with the present before we look back on your
career and your clashes with the All Blacks. South Africa
(01:54):
and New Zealand locked at one test each. How have
you been viewing this series after the first two tests?
And what are your thoughts about where the third test
might be won or lost?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised with the first two.
I thought New Zealand really played according to their strengths,
playing it through their hands quite wide in the first
one and put South Africa for once under pressure because
you could see in the last 15 minutes it was
a different Springbok side. I think they struggled a little bit.
(02:30):
But then the second test, I thought that New Zealand
might go in with, let's say, the same mentality. And
then suddenly, the first half, they were trying to play
a kicking game that I didn't really understand. It was
more giving ball away instead of being very tactical and
use that to their advantage by putting the spring box
(02:52):
under pressure again. I never got that feeling. And then
in the last 15 minutes, they actually got it together again.
They scored some very nice tries. But I thought at
one stage, they not... they're not going to get close
enough to actually sneak that second one. And I think
(03:13):
after two, we're sitting in a pretty situation where we've
seen some of New Zealand's brilliance. We've seen the first
half of the second test in Africa really playing, I think,
very controlled rugby, making less mistakes than in the first one.
(03:33):
And now we're looking at the third one, But there's
only one question that I still raise. Is the Type
5 of New Zealand strong enough to just match South
Africa up front? Because you've heard and I've heard. And
we're going a little bit beyond speculation. You know and
(03:56):
I know that's quite dangerous. And I don't like to
do that. And we're not in the inner circles to
see how that train works. what they plan, how players' performance.
We don't know that. We're on the outside. And I
think we're looking for a serious third test because it's
(04:18):
like two boxes. I think the first six rounds is
done now. Now somebody needs to go for the knockout
now because if you can get the edge now, coming
to Baltimore, it's going to be you need to catch
up or you're going to lose.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, let's continue with that boxing analogy then, Nas. Who
has the capacity, more so of these two sides, to
land those blows in this third test that will give
them the advantage?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Okay, let's stick to New Zealand first, okay? Saying that
you've got a black jersey, so we'll stick to that.
I believe they shouldn't deviate too much of what they
did in the first test. That was really well played
by New Zealand. Forget that South Africa dominated a little
(05:08):
bit in the phases. The way they played, they played
the ball so quickly away from the contact point that
you could see, even with the South African rush defence,
they sort of outsmarted. I don't know if you can
recall in the last 10 minutes, even in the second test,
they created their own space by playing a lot deeper defensively.
(05:30):
They had the first line of attackers and then they
had quite a deep second line of defence. And as
soon as they felt the pressure on the first line,
they sort of played it quite deep. And I always say,
if you feel pressure, just create your own space. For
a fly-off, if you feel the guys in your face
the whole time, just go a yard deeper. That's as
(05:53):
simple as that. Instead of trying to take people on,
trying to play the rash part. So I don't think
New Zealand needs to I deviate too much of the
first test mentality, the way that I played it. Played
exceptional hand skills. I love that. But we always know
that that is one thing New Zealand can do. Okay.
(06:15):
In the past two years, last two years, there were
a number of question marks. And I'm going to take
you through that because that's bringing me closer to my answer.
Is that how many times in the last two years,
and you can't put that, blame on the coaching, okay,
is how many times did your forwards knock the ball on?
(06:35):
Just from a scrum off, passing to a forward, he
just knocked it on. Then in the contact situation, he
just lost the ball. The 50-50 pass is never stuck.
Now the question is, was the 50-50 pass on or
wasn't it on? So now suddenly, I think Dave Rennie
did something, he put a lot of discipline into And
(06:58):
discipline doesn't mean fighting. Forget that. Discipline means if the
right pass is on, you do the right pass. And
I think that's the big difference for me from what
we've seen in the last two years. And suddenly, because
if you think you only had July, he only had
July to figure things out. And he really had a
(07:18):
great first test against South Africa. And I thought if
New Zealand played a little bit different in the first half,
in the second test, It might have been a different
ball game. But as you know and I know, under pressure,
you make some silly decision-making. And I think that cost him. Now,
let's go to the box now. The box believe they've
(07:40):
got the pack of forwards. They can scrum well. But
the thing is, where the box need to adapt a
little bit, it's fine to scrum the guy. And I
think we've also realised with the referee, but saying, if
the ball is at the feet of the number eight,
you play it. Even if it's going down in the front,
you play. And I actually like that. Yes, it's maybe
(08:03):
not to the advantage of the dominant scrum, but I
actually like that because the ball is out. And let's
be honest, at a lower level, scrums is actually quite
a dangerous contact point. That's why I always say, if
a scrum feels pressure, if a player feels pressure, break up.
(08:23):
Because there's nothing really that can happen if you break up.
But they tend to penalize that more than going down.
We're going down in the scrum. And it's quite dangerous
for me. So I always feel the safer way is
going up. Okay. But, okay, so we've seen. So the
question now is, are the box going to be allowed
(08:47):
to be dominant in the scrum? Because if the ball
is at the number eight speed and the ref said,
let's play, Then it doesn't help if you scrum. If
the front throws down, where are you actually going? And
we saw also in the first test, I didn't see
too much about the midfield of South Africa. They played
(09:09):
all well. Let's be fair. Both teams were two internationals.
Nobody really played badly. Nobody. But I didn't feel our
midfield did a great job in the first test. In
the second test, It was a new dynamic. They really
played well. D'Alende and Krill, they really played. But that's
(09:30):
the direct game. That's the way we play. You guys
don't play the direct game. Jordy Barrett, he likes the contact.
He doesn't shy away. But the hands is actually more
the thing. With the rush defence, if you get it wider,
then there's definitely space on the outside. The thing that
(09:51):
I felt is, In the second test, New Zealand thought
by breaking the advantage line, let's use the grabber. But
the grabber means it's a one-two bounce up in your
own hands and you keep playing. Those grubbers were like 10,
15 metres. Now that's not a grubber. That's not a
ball that you can retain.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Amazing piece of analysis there, Nass. In your latest drop-in
podcast episode, you addressed the late changes that Rasia Rasmus
made to his side in the second test. There was
the change he made the day before the game and
then the front row change He made an hour before kickoff.
You made the point that you're okay with it. It's
inside the rules. Can you just expand on your thinking
(10:30):
with regard to Rassi's tactics in that sense?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Okay, let's say we play the two coaches. You're coaching
the All Blacks. I'm coaching the Springboks. Does it really
help me to know who's playing on the weekend? We've
seen these guys. We've got guys analysing every single player
in detail. The guy that I saw in July for
(10:57):
the first time, because I'm missing a little bit of
super rugby, Ruben Love, I think he's absolutely fantastic. He's
really a great flyer. Roy God, we know. He's just
a great scrummer. So your halfbacks that I felt was
a problem in the last two years because they couldn't
decide who's the better tech. Now you've got two great techs.
(11:20):
We've got three, but you've got two. Okay. But I mean,
In two countries, we've got five great fly-offs, you know.
I think we need to feel good about it. So
that's where, can you really analyze? I always say, let's
take a line out. Doesn't matter if you know the course.
(11:40):
Doesn't matter if you know the course, okay. If I
throw it correctly and my guy jump, you're never going
to get to the ball. Let's be fair now. If
you scrum well and I scrum well and the scrum
is going straight, okay, not walking around, just going straight, okay,
(12:01):
then that's the only aspect in rugby where you can
actually bully me because you're stronger than me. That's the
only one. See, if you take, let's say a ruck
situation or whatever, okay, you can't bully me unless you're
not part of the ruck, you run in from the
back and hit me with the shoulder. That's not Boulie,
(12:24):
that's playing outside the laws. I'm not too fond of that, okay?
So where's the only situation? A fantastic tackle. We actually
lost Joachim Janssen during the week, okay? And if you
can recall the tackle on Wayne Cottrell, that was one
(12:46):
heavy tackle. See, that's a situation, but that's a one-on-one
situation How many times in a game? Maybe once, twice,
maximum four or five times where one tackle can actually
dominate a player. But the scrum is the only thing.
So South Africa needs to be very careful and they
need to read the ref very quickly how he's going
(13:09):
to handle it. If they feel, okay, he's not going
to allow them to keep scrumming, then just put the
pressure on and get wide. And don't keep scrumming because
then your loose forwards stay tight And the All Blacks
with their hands is going to beat us on the outside.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
What is it about this rivalry, Nass, over here in
New Zealand? It's all anybody is talking about. I'm sure
it's the same in South Africa. What is it about
this rivalry between the Springboks and the All Blacks that
gets our blood pumping so much?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I believe it's, you guys feel it's like a religion. Okay. I'm, Listen,
I need to be extremely careful how I'm going to
let this come out, okay? If you take New Zealand,
fantastic country, small country. How many ships? Was it 30 million, whatever?
(14:09):
I don't know, okay? Luckily, no snakes. That's the one
thing I loved about New Zealand. There's no snakes, okay?
What else? Give me what else are you giving you?
The world. You're giving them the All Blacks. Rugby, yes. Rugby. Yes,
you're giving them netball, you're giving them cricket, but what
(14:30):
are you actually giving the world that every news broadcaster
can talk about? The All Blacks. Okay? Now, South Africa,
they're in a difficult situation at the moment. You know,
there's a little bit of a political turmoil. This, that.
Jobs is not really all... that great, and, and, and, and.
(14:53):
So what do people have? They have the Springbok. And
I think, you know, apart from starting in 1921, okay,
and it's only a rumour that I was there, I
wasn't there, okay? It's only a rumour, okay? But if
you take 1921, and then, as I said on a
couple of occasions, it's quite nice to say, I played
(15:16):
curtain races for the 70 All Blacks, as a under
13 provincial rugby player. Then as an under 20 player,
I played curtain raisers for Andy Leslie. And you know,
I don't know if you know, Andy Leslie was also
your softball captain. I played against him that November in
(15:37):
1976 for my province. Okay. And then I played him. Okay.
And you don't want to talk about this one, the Cavaliers. Okay.
I know. But we made sure that you won the
World Cup in 87 by preparing your team to the fullest.
I know you guys don't want to hear it, but
it's true. Because what happened in France in the end
(15:59):
of 86? We lost both. We got reinstated. Everyone. So
let's leave that there. And then I was extremely fortunate
to play against them in 92. And we all talked.
And I know this is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, okay?
We all talk about Japan beating South Africa as the
(16:20):
biggest upset ever. We were that close. That close. We
lost the ball going over the line in 92 to
upset the All Blacks. That, according to me, would have
been the biggest shock in world rugby history.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh, Nass, what a delight to chat to you. Just
before you go, I know you're based in the US now. Baltimore,
I think, is a two-and-a-half-hour flight or thereabouts from where
you are in Kansas. Are you going to be in
Baltimore next weekend for the fourth test?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, we're going to. There's a number of South Africans
that will go. So we're looking forward to that. But
it depends on the third test because the last one
is now so important. It's either going to be a
draw unless we have a draw on Saturday. Imagine that one.
(17:16):
Imagine that one. Then everything is on Baltimore. So whoever wins,
the other one needs to make sure they win. So
it's a 2-2. If there's a draw, then that is
the ultimate. Okay. Because somebody needs to take a win here.
So I just, you know, very fortunate. that we're going
(17:39):
to be part of this big occasion. And you spoke
about the rivalry, as I said, from 1921. In East
South Africa, I was actually a little bit more into
baseball than rugby. But when I got really into rugby
as such, I had two things that I would have
loved to. Is to play the British and Irish Lions.
(18:02):
I was fortunate enough to do that in 1918. And
then tour New Zealand in New Zealand. Because I think
if there's two countries you would love to tour as
a player, New Zealand is the one. And I think
South Africa is the other one. Seriously, I think those
two countries, you just love touring. France is totally a
different experience. Europe or the four nations, totally a different experience.
(18:27):
But I think those two countries. And then just a
final word on announcing the teams. Any international player should
be good enough that even if they make 15 chances
before the kick-off, they should be able to adapt and
play whoever is on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Nass, you've given us unbelievable analysis today. You're fondly remembered
here in New Zealand. I was at Athletic Park in 1981, actually,
when you scored 20 points as the Springboks beat the
All Blacks 24-12 that day. Thank you so much for
joining us across New Zealand. Enjoy the third test and
the fourth test in Baltimore where you'll be present. Thanks
(19:09):
again for your time this afternoon.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
You're more than welcome.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Thanks, Nass. Nass, Borta there, the one and only.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Jeepers.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
What about some of the analysis he had there? Make
no mistake, this is the series decider. I know there's
a fourth test next weekend. We just talked about it.
It's in Baltimore, but it's always felt like an add-on,
a commercial add-on, the fourth test. It's a neutral venue. It's,
as I say, it just has always felt like an extra.
(19:39):
Whoever wins tomorrow morning will have won two of the
three test matches in South Africa. and I think can
say we have won the series, the South African segment
of it anyway. I know the trophy will go to Baltimore,
and if it's to... all after the fourth test, they'll
split it in half and take a half each. But
(20:03):
if the All Blacks win tomorrow morning, I think 24
hours from now, we're talking about a series win in
South Africa, just as we would have been in 1996.
Keys for the All Blacks.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Start better.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
In both tests so far, they have been second best
from the opening whistle. It didn't matter too much in
the first test, but it was obvious in that game
that South Africa came out better. Last weekend, the ABs
were behind 7-0 after three minutes. They never led the game.
In fact, of five tests so far under Dave Rennie,
(20:41):
the All Blacks have only scored the first points once.
just the once that was against Ireland at Eden Park.
So starting better has to be a bit of a
work on. Use altitude to your advantage, I would say.
The All Blacks are fitter than the Springboks. That's become obvious.
And when they met at altitude in the first test,
(21:02):
it was the All Blacks who finished much stronger.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Run them around.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Thankfully, running the opposition around is part of the All
Blacks game plan. They want to get the ball wide.
They want to Play with optimism. And that'll work at altitude.
I honestly believe playing at altitude suits the All Blacks
more than the Springboks. Got to be good at set-piece time.
(21:28):
In the first test, the scrum under major pressure. Last weekend,
it was the line-out. Hopefully, with the benefit of those
two test matches under their collective belts, both will function
well tomorrow. Massive test match for Asafo Amoah. the chance
to start a test for the first time this season,
and just his seventh start in 29 test matches. He
(21:53):
has the chance to bring that power game of his,
that undisputed power that he has, into the game from
the start. It's a big call from Dave Rennie, a
really big call, to leave Cody Taylor out, this test centurion,
this tremendously experienced Front row forward, not only out of
the starting side, but out of the 23 altogether.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Big call.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
But it is a chance for Asafo-Wamua to stake his
claim for that number two jersey. He starts for the Hurricanes.
He's been used largely as an impact player for the
All Blacks. I think today or tomorrow morning is a
massive chance for Asafo-Wamua. We can win this game. We
(22:39):
can absolutely win this game. Combine the best parts from
the first two test matches, and we can absolutely win it.
They'll be good too. Of course they will. But it
is not beyond the realms of possibility that the All
Blacks win this test series tomorrow morning at Soweto. And
(23:00):
if you want to call it a four-test series, then they,
by winning tomorrow, deny South Africa the chance to win
the series.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Pine, listen live
to News Talk ZB, weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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