Wayne Goldsmith: coaching expert on whether we need to keep score in junior sport

There's growing debate over whether we need to keep score in youth-focused sports.

Countries like Norway are rethinking their youth competitions - with no official score keeping and less focus on winning.

Coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith joined Piney to discuss.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from News Talk ZEDB.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Regular listeners to the show have come to greatly enjoy
as I have, the contributions of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith.
His latest article was one I wanted to get him
on to talk about. It takes a fascinating look at
why countries like Norway are rethinking competition altogether when it
comes to youth sport. The idea less focus on winning,

(00:34):
no official scorekeeping for younger kids, and a bigger emphasis
on enjoyment, participation and long term development. It's a model
that's producing both happier athletes and interestingly also world class performers.
Wayne Goldsmith is with us wayn always great having you
on the radio with us. Can you start by explaining

(00:55):
the core idea here? Why doesn't Norway keep score in
kids sport?

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Well, I think Piney over the years and the discussions
you and I have had, and I think if you
talk to people in the sporting organizations in New zeal And, Australia,
around the world, I think everybody sort of gets the
idea that no, really there's no ten year old champions
and that junior sports should be about fun then in
games and learning to love the sport. I think we

(01:24):
all were pretty much there. We know that. But what
always done is they've gone from yes, we know we
should do it, they've actually gone, we're going to do it,
and we're going to say, look, we want kids just
to fall in love with the game. So then they've
gone what are the things that stop kids from falling
in love with the game? What are the negative experiences? Well,

(01:48):
the ferocious passion to keep scores in the under sevens, Well,
let's not keep scores. What else can we do, Well,
we're not going to We don't want clubs, we don't
want sporting organizations to be promoting high intensity, high level
competitions the kids under about the age of thirty and forty.
In fact, we're going to back that to the point

(02:09):
we're going to make it illegal to do it. So
what always done is if you look, I guarantee if
we went into Rugby, New Zealand, they're on New Zealand
from in New Zealand and said what do you guys think? Conceptually,
they go, yeah, we know this is kids are going
to have fun. Parents have got to stop worrying and
stressing about it, but they're not going to do it

(02:29):
because it's a very very difficult political thing to implement,
and always gone, we're going to put the interest of
the kids first and foremost, and we're going to make
it happen. And now I think it's a courageous thing
they've done.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Courageous is right, And it's not the kids making the
decision either way. And is it these are adults making
these decisions about what is best for kids' sports. What
is the problem they are actually trying to solve here?
Is it the fact that too many kids lose enjoyment
early and drop out completely? Is that the problem they're

(03:03):
trying to solve.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
This pint? And I think, you know, there's you know,
sports are very very conservative institution. Now we think about
sport as being about progress and innovation and winning and
breaking records and setting new barriers, but in reality, most
sport is like a warm, comfanying blanket. You go to
the club, it's always the same people doing the same

(03:29):
things the same way, and you feel at home. And
people in community sport and communities around the world, they
want to feel that sport's not going to change much.
And we've always had junior rep teams. We've always kept
score for the eights and nines and tens, and we've
always had club champions at seven, eight, nine, ten, So
there's a reluctance to change no matter what the evidence

(03:51):
might say. But if you actually dig into the evidence,
we know that the kids who are training at higher
levels at a young age don't stick with it. They
get the Ford in a fifteen and they go, I've
had too much, too soon, too early, too hard, They
do something else. We know that the majority of those
superstar eight, nine, ten, eleven year old kids almost never,

(04:13):
almost never make it to the top as elite athletes
because they change and they grow and things are different.
So we know that the research and the data from
many many places around the world, including New Zelle, say
focus and over focus on elite sport too early doesn't
grow the sport, doesn't increase participation, it doesn't increase the

(04:36):
quality of the top end, so we don't get better athletes.
All right, Well, why are we doing it If we're
not getting more kids and it's not producing better elite
level players, why are we doing it? The answer is
we've always done it that way, and it's very difficult
to change. And again the Norwegians have seen the same
data that we've seen and the same research that we've
see here in England straight to came everywhere else, but

(04:59):
they've actually done something about it. And the funny thing is,
Pinty that if you would have said, you know what,
we're going to decrease emphasis on league sport, We're going
to decrease emphasis on a junior development pathways, a lot
of people have gone, well, that's going to impact negatively
on producing elite level Olympic class professional place. It's actually

(05:20):
produced the opposite. By encouraging participation and encouraging a love
of the game and decreasing the emphasis on early specialization.
They've got better at top end. And I think that's
what's now starting people on in a minute, there's something
going on here. Maybe we need to follow them.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
The conservatism is a really interesting point in this way,
and you touched on it before. I can hear a
couple of our listeners saying, come on, Wyane, you've gone
a bit woke, you've gone a bit soft, not keeping score.
What do you mean what's your reaction to that reaction?

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, look, I see the thing. I get so you're
one of those everyone gets surprised sort of guys, are
you away and say, well, you know yes and no,
and look, we know that. If you've got two kids
in a swimming pool and they're eight and they're in
the backyard, the first thing you're going to say to
each other is I bet I can beat you at
the other end. And there's nothing wrong with being a

(06:18):
little bit competitive and wanting to race your friends or
you know, want a school girls. All that stuff's all
wonderful and being part of the game. But where we've
gone too far was we've gone all that matters is
winning and losing, all the matters of success. If you're
ten years of age and you're successful in you're winning races,
we're interested in you and we're going to put you
part of our pathway system. Everybody else we don't care

(06:40):
so much. And when you take a breath and you
think about it, so well, no, if all we care
about is winning and losing, If all we care about
a success and failure at a young age, think about
all those kids that are in the under twelve Rep team,
you know, under twelve local net board Rep team or
under twelve, under eleven, under twelve like a rugby team.

(07:02):
The kids are in those teams are usually the biggest, stronger,
faster kids, or the kids have been training very hard,
very early. But think for a moment about the ninety
eight percent of kids who are not in those rep teams.
Their brains are going, well, clearly, I'm not very good.
I'm never going to make it for the top, or
clearly I'm not good enough to make it successfully as

(07:22):
an all black, I'm never going to play for the friends.
What am I wasting my time for? And they walk away.
So for those very very small number of elite level,
supposed elite level kids, dating, it's great. The parents love
getting on social media and saying, isn't it fantastic my
daughter Julie's in the underten rep team? But think about
the other ninety nine percent of kids that go well,

(07:44):
that means I'm no good and the parents who say, well,
they're no good? Why are we wasting our time and
money taking them to fall of rugby of football? It's
clearly they're no good. But it's exactly there the kids
that we want to keep, and you know the is
you know, I've just come back from Ireland and Scotland
and the Netherlands and Canada and competitive sport is desperate

(08:07):
to retain teenagers and it looks like the way that
Norway is going is a pretty good strategy to sustain
kid's interest in enthusiasm to stay in And that's what
we're about, aren't we. We want every New Zealand fourteen, fifteen,
sixteen year old kid playing something and not going I

(08:28):
hate sport because I was no good at eight. And
it's a big mind shift, but we've got to do it.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
You've taken my next question. It is a big mind
shift switch. You talk about going from performance to play.
How big a mindset change is that for coaches and parents?
And does it need something like what Norway have done
in an overarching sense to get the ball rolling here
or can it be done independently of governance of that form?

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Well, mate, I'm not even though I'm in New Zealand
at the moment, I'm not trying to make a whole
bunch of New Zealand friends. I've got. New Zealander's reputation
is being very innovative, very creative, and there's no reason
why the system that is produced in New Zealand can't

(09:20):
be worldly, can't be as good or better than the
Norway system. To me, it starts with the individual sports
have got to change their coach education. There's the first step.
So if I'm running the coach education for Nepal, New Zealand,
for Rugby New Zealand, for rowing, news and whatever, it
is the first thing I've got to do in my
level one beginning coaching courses is instead of starting out

(09:44):
talking about how to produce great athletes, how to do
strength training, how to liftlates, first season's got to be
how to create great relationships for kids. Second session, how
to build great connections with kids and families. Third systems,
how to create environments which are fun and enjoyable that
kids want to come back to. We've got to start
there because in most sports, coaches, and I say this

(10:09):
quite out might I think in most sports coaches are
the sport. And what I mean by that is the
daily experience of sport. Any sport is generally delivered by coaches.
So it's the way that the coaches coach. When how
many kids in yew Zerold sit around at night going hey,
coach said this to day, she told me I have
to do this coaches word is almost lord with in

(10:31):
junior sport. The kids and the parents follow what the
coaches are saying and what the coaches believe. So our
first step is we've got to change our coaching courses
to focus on making training fun, making training enjoyable, making
fitness fun and engaging. Going to get to them first.
Second thing, got to get to the parents and say
to parents, you know what, in junior sport, victory is

(10:55):
turning up again, winning is inter and change the mindset.
It's the hard thing to do with parents is you're
changing a fundamental belief structure about what parenting is all about,
which is I want to see my kids successful. I
want to see my kids happy. That means my kids
have to win. I'm only happy if they're winning. We

(11:16):
are to change it to say, no, well, I'm happy
if my kids are If my kids are happy and
they're healthy, and they're having fun and they've got friends
and they're learning, that's when I'm happy, and shift from
my kids are only happy when they're winning. But start
with coaches, focus on parents, and we can change it around.
We really really can. But it's a system wide, almost

(11:37):
a nationwide approach to saying, what's in the best interest
of key wee kids.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Can I just ask you one final question about the
development of resilience And some would say that, you know,
you've got to develop a hard nosed competitive attitude early
on as a child. And I know opponents of what
you're saying will say, hey, well, I want I want
my kids to develop that early. Is there evidence to
suggest that actually we can still produce tough, resilience competitive

(12:05):
athletes by reducing pressure early on.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Ah, pioneer, my friend, my friend, you always give me
the best questions that it depends what just think resilience is.
To me, resilience is the ability to deal whatever the
world throws at you and move on quickly. You can
have players and athletes who you think are tough because
they grit their teeth and they look bigger than me.

(12:32):
That's not resilience. That's just some form of aggression. To me,
when I see kids have got real resilience when something
they don't know what happens to them. They get a
bad call from an umpire, they get a little bit
of an injury or a knock, they make a mistake,
they move on quickly, and that's got nothing to do
with winning or losing. That's a skill of mom and

(12:53):
dad can learn. And I'm doing a parent session soon
down in Hawks Bay, and when I talk to the parents,
I talk about creating situations at home where kids learn
to be independent, for kids learn to do things for themselves,
because confidence comes from knowing. Knowing comes from doing. The
more kids do for themselves, even doing things like packing

(13:15):
their bags, emptying and filling their water bottle, getting up
in the morning by themselves, more kids can do, they
become the more they can do, the more they believe
they can do, the more confident they become. And so
resilience isn't about competitiveness. That it's not winning at all costs.
That's a difference in real resilience is a kid who
can deal with the disappointment, deal with the frustration and

(13:37):
not being selected, miss a goal from right in front,
and move on quickly. And they learn that to really
good coaching. And they learn that through their experiences or
their mum and dad embracing independence and self responsibility. And
so that's got nothing to do with how they junior sport.
And that's the beauty of it is. You know what

(13:59):
the Norwegians have been able to do by encouraging these
things and encourage a sense of enjoyment and play any
impact on high performance. It's quite and I think it's
taken everyone by surprise, and after three Olympic cycles of
seeing this, I think the rest of the world's really
starting to take notice.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Wayne, your contributions to the show are always interesting, always
thought provoking. We always get a whole heap of feedback
and this won't be any exception. Thank you so much
for taking the time, Enjoy the rest of you stay
here in New Zealand. Hope you can get home.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Okay, yes, I know the cyclone could be a big
problem at some stage, but look like in swim and
you know it's only four or five days are threshing
out there in the Tasman. I will be home.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Wayne Goldsmith always enjoy having him on the radio with
us WG Coaching dot com as his website. Heaps of
good stuff on there as well. If you want to
read more and hear more from from Wayne.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Faine, listen live
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