June 30, 2026 • 10 mins
Nick Mills talks with co-founder of STILL Minding the Gap, Jo Cribb this morning about the start of the new "Lift the Lid" campaign, which is pushing for mandatory gender pay gap reporting in New Zealand.
In New Zealand the gender pay gap is 5.2% for women, 12% for Māori wahine and 16% for Pacific women. Cribb believes more transparency from businesses will shut the gap and allow fair pay.
They discuss why the campaign is calling for greater pay transparency, her own experience with the gender pay gap, the economic and social impacts of the gap, and why she believes making pay gaps public is the first step towards closing them.
The campaign relates pulling the related bill from the tin in parliament to a cookie tin - for more details and to add your cookie (voice) to the tin check out their website STILLMindingTheGap.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk STB.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Do you know that women in New Zealand are still
earning less than men on average, and a new campaign
called Still Minding the Gap wants to put the issue
back in the political agenda throughout July. They're asking New
Zealanders to drop a biscuit into the t online to
support greater pay transparency. Joining us now is Joe crib
(00:37):
from Still Mining the Gap. Joe, good morning and welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Good morning neck, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
How big a gap is there?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, at the moment it sits about five percent, So
that means women, if you think about the year, are
going to stop working stop getting paid around I guess
the beginning of December. But for Mighty women it's about
twelve percent, so they're going to stop working in November,
stop getting paid in November. And Pacific woman it's sixteen percent.
(01:04):
That's a chunk of change. They're going to stop getting
paid about October. Amazingly large gaps still.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
For those of us who haven't followed this issue, because
you know, I can honestly say I would rather employ
a woman and payer exactly what I'd pay a man
any day of the week. Who haven't followed this issue,
Women in New Zealand have still being paid less for
men for the same jobs. Is this really about the
types of jobs that the men and women are working in.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, that's a great question, Nick. So what the gender
pay gap measures is what an average woman in the
organization has paid compared to the average man. And yes,
we find that still men and women doing the same
job are being paid differently, which is just straight out unfair.
But we also find that groups of workers are systematically
(01:53):
paid less. And so the gender pay gap has got
nothing to do with who's you know, how many qualifications
women have got, how many hours they work. It's got
nothing to do with how experience they are and even
not what industry they're working in at the moment. All
the research shows that the gender pay gap is created
(02:13):
by the decisions that managers make in the pay So
it's the s.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
How's that happening in twenty twenty six? I mean, I mean,
I employ a lot of people. I just cannot understand that.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yes, well, Nick, you're you're one of the great ones,
and actually lots of people. Interesting when we did the research,
a whole lot of organizations have never measured their gender
pay gap, so they've never looked into it. You know,
we think upwards of half of New Zealand organizations and
the reason they haven't looked into it is because they
think they just couldn't possibly have one. But again that
(02:45):
all the research, and again all the international research where
they have pay gap reporting shows that nearly all organizations
will have a gap. So we're sitting here thinking we
don't have one. We Hey, we're the good guys. Of
course we wouldn't pay people differently, but we do. And
it happens in a lot of ways. So, and some
of them are subtle and some of them are not
so statle. So can I give you some example.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I want to have a kind of place.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, I know. So what we often find is that
women are often asked when they go for an interview,
what's your current salary? And they might be given, you know,
a little top up based on their current salary rather
than what the job is worth. And so we find
if that happens over a number of years, we get
(03:30):
a whole lot of women that are paid less. We
find that if women go on parental leave, they often
miss out on all the increments they've been getting, so
by the time they get back into the workforce, they
are way, way, way behind their colleagues. If you are
working part time, you take a big text for that.
All the search shows you're going to be paid regardless
(03:51):
of if you're doing the same job next to next
to a man who's working forty hours and you're working thirty,
you're going to be paid less. It's just you're just
seen as not quite you know, whether it's consciously or unconsciously,
you're probably seen as, you know, not quite a contributor.
So all of these things, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
To get convention out.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I mean, I know that you're stealing in facts, but
I just I'm still bewildered.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Ah yeah, but that the numbers and the data just
doesn't lie. Can I tell you another piece. So we
did a big piece of research and we asked businesses
about this, like have you looked at your pay gap?
And what did you find and what happened when you
did it. So a large sample of New Zealand businesses,
way over three hundred, and we found that half of
them had looked at their gender pay gap and the
(04:38):
other half hadn't of those who'd looked at their gender
pay gaps. So you know, you know, a good one
hundred and fifteen, nearly two hundred businesses, more than half
of them, once they looked at their gender pay gap,
adjusted women's salaries up. So they found that they had
gaps that they just couldn't live with and they couldn't justify.
(05:00):
So it's real, it really does happen. And you know,
I don't think there's a whole army of you know,
middle managers sitting there going haha, can I pay woman less?
But it's actually what is happening.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So what are you going to do this month? What's
how's this campaign going to change that? What are you
going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah? Okay, So what we know is if you look
at your gender pay gap and you're really conscious about
what is happening in your organizations around the pay that
it usually goes away or you fix it. So you know,
if you can see your gender pay gap, you look
at it. We also know that about half of the
organizations in New Zealand have not looked at their gender
(05:39):
pay gap, so they do not know if they are
paying their staff fairly or not. And the people working
in the organizations have no idea whether they're being paid
fairly or not. So the rest of the world's already
done this, the whole entire European Union, nearly half of
the countries in the OECD, the UK, even even bloody
(06:00):
Australia has done it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So how do they have to report.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
They have to report their pay gaps publicly, so that
means they have to look at them and then they
have to put you know, essentially just enter them in
a database that everybody can see. And when you do that, obviously,
when you look at the gap, you work on it,
and there's no excuse then not to look at it.
What happens is that our gender pay gap, if we
did it, would drop by about forty percent. That's what
(06:26):
happened internationally.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Why do you think New Zealand hasn't moved forward with it?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh, I just don't. I just can't work it out.
I mean even Australia has been doing it for three years,
and we like to think we're a wee bit better
than our Aussie mates. I think there's been there, you know,
it just hasn't been a priority. And I just think
we need to put some pressure on those people in
the beehive right across the house to say, hey, it's
(06:54):
twenty sixteen. This tool works really well, just do it.
We also found one of the reasons we'd heard is that,
you know, this might cost businesses and it's a pretty
tough time out there, Nick, But we actually found that
it doesn't cost businesses. Most of them have payroll systems.
Two clicks, that's all it takes to generate your gender
pay gap. So once we did the research, I can't
(07:16):
see any barriers. So what we're really asking all your
listeners to go. You know, if you want to live
in a country where we just don't tolerate paying people
differently because of their their gender, we need to We
need to tell the tell the tew those guys and
the beehive to to sort it out. And we've got
a really quite interesting way of doing it. If you
(07:38):
go to our website still minding the Gap, there is
a big biscuit tin. Put a biscuit in that tin.
And the reason we've gone for biscuits is I don't
know about you, but I'm quite partial to a good
chocky biscuit. I quite like a good toffee pop actually,
But many many many workers today are going to get
not going to get those toffee pops. They're going to get,
(07:59):
you know, the playing pack, crappy vanilla biscuits. And that's
what we want to We want to really make the
points some of us are going to today and we
are getting the last dregs of the biscuit tin, we're
getting the vanilla wines, and some of us are earning
the chocky biscuits. We think everyone should get a choky biscuit.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, I think that I think I agree with you
that it should be documented if you are paying a
female worker lesson a male, I think it surely should
be documented. Once again, I don't want to sound like
I'm repeating myself, but I just never ever thought that way,
and I've always employed a woman before I employed a
man every time for every job. I would take a
(08:38):
woman over a man because they are more honest, they're
more reliable, and they're more fun.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I disagree with you, Nick, but again, the data just
can't lie. There is a whole raft of organizations one
they don't know if they are paying fairly or not.
And we know from all the national data that we
have these large gaps that we just cannot justify. So, yes,
(09:05):
it is still happening. I'd be fascinating to hear from
from your listeners experiences. I mean, I've got a personal example.
I was invited to act up into a senior leadership
role and I was given a little acting up allowance
and I thought that was good. Then I was confirmed
(09:26):
in the role. When I was confirmed at that level,
and when I left the role about three years later,
I found out I was earning substantial, like we're talking
tens of thousands of dollars less than my male colleagues
doing the same job because they'd been appointed at the
right level rather than a top up. And so actually,
it does just happen. There is, whether we like it
(09:49):
or not. There's really unfair practices happening out there.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Neck Okay, well, let's hope people fill it in. Joe
Crab still minding the gap and.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks they'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast ast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk STB.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Do you know that women in New Zealand are still
earning less than men on average, and a new campaign
called Still Minding the Gap wants to put the issue
back in the political agenda throughout July. They're asking New
Zealanders to drop a biscuit into the t online to
support greater pay transparency. Joining us now is Joe crib
(00:37):
from Still Mining the Gap. Joe, good morning and welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Good morning neck, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
How big a gap is there?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, at the moment it sits about five percent, So
that means women, if you think about the year, are
going to stop working stop getting paid around I guess
the beginning of December. But for Mighty women it's about
twelve percent, so they're going to stop working in November,
stop getting paid in November. And Pacific woman it's sixteen percent.
(01:04):
That's a chunk of change. They're going to stop getting
paid about October. Amazingly large gaps still.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
For those of us who haven't followed this issue, because
you know, I can honestly say I would rather employ
a woman and payer exactly what I'd pay a man
any day of the week. Who haven't followed this issue,
Women in New Zealand have still being paid less for
men for the same jobs. Is this really about the
types of jobs that the men and women are working in.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, that's a great question, Nick. So what the gender
pay gap measures is what an average woman in the
organization has paid compared to the average man. And yes,
we find that still men and women doing the same
job are being paid differently, which is just straight out unfair.
But we also find that groups of workers are systematically
(01:53):
paid less. And so the gender pay gap has got
nothing to do with who's you know, how many qualifications
women have got, how many hours they work. It's got
nothing to do with how experience they are and even
not what industry they're working in at the moment. All
the research shows that the gender pay gap is created
(02:13):
by the decisions that managers make in the pay So
it's the s.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
How's that happening in twenty twenty six? I mean, I mean,
I employ a lot of people. I just cannot understand that.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yes, well, Nick, you're you're one of the great ones,
and actually lots of people. Interesting when we did the research,
a whole lot of organizations have never measured their gender
pay gap, so they've never looked into it. You know,
we think upwards of half of New Zealand organizations and
the reason they haven't looked into it is because they
think they just couldn't possibly have one. But again that
(02:45):
all the research, and again all the international research where
they have pay gap reporting shows that nearly all organizations
will have a gap. So we're sitting here thinking we
don't have one. We Hey, we're the good guys. Of
course we wouldn't pay people differently, but we do. And
it happens in a lot of ways. So, and some
of them are subtle and some of them are not
so statle. So can I give you some example.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I want to have a kind of place.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, I know. So what we often find is that
women are often asked when they go for an interview,
what's your current salary? And they might be given, you know,
a little top up based on their current salary rather
than what the job is worth. And so we find
if that happens over a number of years, we get
(03:30):
a whole lot of women that are paid less. We
find that if women go on parental leave, they often
miss out on all the increments they've been getting, so
by the time they get back into the workforce, they
are way, way, way behind their colleagues. If you are
working part time, you take a big text for that.
All the search shows you're going to be paid regardless
(03:51):
of if you're doing the same job next to next
to a man who's working forty hours and you're working thirty,
you're going to be paid less. It's just you're just
seen as not quite you know, whether it's consciously or unconsciously,
you're probably seen as, you know, not quite a contributor.
So all of these things, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
To get convention out.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I mean, I know that you're stealing in facts, but
I just I'm still bewildered.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Ah yeah, but that the numbers and the data just
doesn't lie. Can I tell you another piece. So we
did a big piece of research and we asked businesses
about this, like have you looked at your pay gap?
And what did you find and what happened when you
did it. So a large sample of New Zealand businesses,
way over three hundred, and we found that half of
them had looked at their gender pay gap and the
(04:38):
other half hadn't of those who'd looked at their gender
pay gaps. So you know, you know, a good one
hundred and fifteen, nearly two hundred businesses, more than half
of them, once they looked at their gender pay gap,
adjusted women's salaries up. So they found that they had
gaps that they just couldn't live with and they couldn't justify.
(05:00):
So it's real, it really does happen. And you know,
I don't think there's a whole army of you know,
middle managers sitting there going haha, can I pay woman less?
But it's actually what is happening.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So what are you going to do this month? What's
how's this campaign going to change that? What are you
going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah? Okay, So what we know is if you look
at your gender pay gap and you're really conscious about
what is happening in your organizations around the pay that
it usually goes away or you fix it. So you know,
if you can see your gender pay gap, you look
at it. We also know that about half of the
organizations in New Zealand have not looked at their gender
(05:39):
pay gap, so they do not know if they are
paying their staff fairly or not. And the people working
in the organizations have no idea whether they're being paid
fairly or not. So the rest of the world's already
done this, the whole entire European Union, nearly half of
the countries in the OECD, the UK, even even bloody
(06:00):
Australia has done it.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So how do they have to report.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
They have to report their pay gaps publicly, so that
means they have to look at them and then they
have to put you know, essentially just enter them in
a database that everybody can see. And when you do that, obviously,
when you look at the gap, you work on it,
and there's no excuse then not to look at it.
What happens is that our gender pay gap, if we
did it, would drop by about forty percent. That's what
(06:26):
happened internationally.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Why do you think New Zealand hasn't moved forward with it?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh, I just don't. I just can't work it out.
I mean even Australia has been doing it for three years,
and we like to think we're a wee bit better
than our Aussie mates. I think there's been there, you know,
it just hasn't been a priority. And I just think
we need to put some pressure on those people in
the beehive right across the house to say, hey, it's
(06:54):
twenty sixteen. This tool works really well, just do it.
We also found one of the reasons we'd heard is that,
you know, this might cost businesses and it's a pretty
tough time out there, Nick, But we actually found that
it doesn't cost businesses. Most of them have payroll systems.
Two clicks, that's all it takes to generate your gender
pay gap. So once we did the research, I can't
(07:16):
see any barriers. So what we're really asking all your
listeners to go. You know, if you want to live
in a country where we just don't tolerate paying people
differently because of their their gender, we need to We
need to tell the tell the tew those guys and
the beehive to to sort it out. And we've got
a really quite interesting way of doing it. If you
(07:38):
go to our website still minding the Gap, there is
a big biscuit tin. Put a biscuit in that tin.
And the reason we've gone for biscuits is I don't
know about you, but I'm quite partial to a good
chocky biscuit. I quite like a good toffee pop actually,
But many many many workers today are going to get
not going to get those toffee pops. They're going to get,
(07:59):
you know, the playing pack, crappy vanilla biscuits. And that's
what we want to We want to really make the
points some of us are going to today and we
are getting the last dregs of the biscuit tin, we're
getting the vanilla wines, and some of us are earning
the chocky biscuits. We think everyone should get a choky biscuit.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, I think that I think I agree with you
that it should be documented if you are paying a
female worker lesson a male, I think it surely should
be documented. Once again, I don't want to sound like
I'm repeating myself, but I just never ever thought that way,
and I've always employed a woman before I employed a
man every time for every job. I would take a
(08:38):
woman over a man because they are more honest, they're
more reliable, and they're more fun.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I disagree with you, Nick, but again, the data just
can't lie. There is a whole raft of organizations one
they don't know if they are paying fairly or not.
And we know from all the national data that we
have these large gaps that we just cannot justify. So, yes,
(09:05):
it is still happening. I'd be fascinating to hear from
from your listeners experiences. I mean, I've got a personal example.
I was invited to act up into a senior leadership
role and I was given a little acting up allowance
and I thought that was good. Then I was confirmed
(09:26):
in the role. When I was confirmed at that level,
and when I left the role about three years later,
I found out I was earning substantial, like we're talking
tens of thousands of dollars less than my male colleagues
doing the same job because they'd been appointed at the
right level rather than a top up. And so actually,
it does just happen. There is, whether we like it
(09:49):
or not. There's really unfair practices happening out there.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Neck Okay, well, let's hope people fill it in. Joe
Crab still minding the gap and.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks they'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast ast on iHeartRadio.
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