June 24, 2026 • 23 mins
Nick Mills is joined in the studio this morning by National Minister Paul Goldsmith and Labour MP Willie Jackson for our Politics Thursday panel.
They cover the hot political issues of the week - starting with new controversy around move on orders.
Mayor Andrew Little says the council will continue in defiance of the government's move on orders, but has offered no specific solution. Our panel discuss this, and what they think about the Mayor outwardly rebelling against the government.
They also discuss the latest poll, which has Labour and National at their lowest combined result since MMP started. Are the minor parties in control? And do the major parties take TOP seriously?
Also, Winston Peters Health and safety bill saga, is he politicking or is there genuine concerns over Brooke Van Velden's bill?
And Goldsmith and Jackson debate altering the age for super annuation.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As promised during the show, we have been joined by
Minister Paul Goldsmith. Good morning, Paul, good morning, how when
you come a little bit closer to that microphone? Please
great to have you in the studio and your very
good friend Labor MP Willie Jackson, Good morning. Will he
and you come a little bit closer. That microphone can move,
you can get a bit bit closer to him. Look,
(00:34):
I just want to before we start, mister Goldsmith, I
just got to ask you about Stephen Rainbow unspecified conduct
concerns and an inquiry. That's your man.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You appointed him, Yes I did, and some concerns have
been raised and it's a very you know, it's a
highly independent role. So I've dunewar my ministry officials of advice,
which is to get a case to have a look
at them, and we'll take it from there. I can't
really say too much more than.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That, but I mean you, I've been told that you
that was your man, you wanted him, you got you
got him for that job because you thought he was
the right guy. And now we've got an issue.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, It's not the first time there's been an issue
with people who have been appointed to these roles, and
so you know, fear you've got to go through the
process and you know it's fair enough.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
What are you hearing, will he Oh, well, minister's got
to go through his process and you know we'll wait.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
That's that's that's that's a rare sort of statesman like
comment from Oh Jackson.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
I can show I can show those traits sometimes, Goldie.
You know that, so that you know you gotta we'll
go through this.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
This morning we've been talking on the show because I
was horrified yesterday afternoon to read about Warlington City Council
and Andrew Little going against the moving on orders and
basically picking a fight with the government. Willie Jackson, I
know that you're very good friends with the mayor and
I and I understand you you're going to try and
put something out of this. But isn't there a problem
(01:58):
when a mayor goes against the government when the government's
trying to help the city out.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well, you got mayors going against governments all the time,
haven't you look at Brownie and Auckland. He ripped into
he rips into these guys all the all the time.
He called Winston and New Zealand first racist the other day,
you know, over the Auckland Maldi statutory boards. I don't
think it's unusual at all. The reality is with the
move on orders, they've got to be I mean, look,
we're all concerned about local businesses and I know you're
(02:23):
a local businessman and so we support you. But there's
got to be some humanity about this, and that's that's what.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I don't think there's any question about it. But the
fact that he's going absolutely fighting the government, well, I.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Think he's been really working reasonably well with the government.
I thought here he has good relations with him, which
he must do as a mayor, even though he's a
former Labor Party leader, doesn't matter. He's got to have
a good relationship with the with the government. But there
are some humanity questions here that people like Andrew are asking.
You know what, you know, where do these people go?
Where do they end up? Why isn't the emergency emergency
(02:57):
housing a strategy properly?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
In an all very fair com out. But Paul, when
you would have heard about it, you would have thought, well,
what is he going to.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Do in reply, well, look, I mean, you know, the
reality is that Andrew Little as mayor presumably doesn't want
to be talking about the basics around sewage, around water,
around all the wasted money on the Golden Mile, and
just getting the basics done in the city, and you
prefer to do a bit of grand standing around this
(03:24):
doesn't surprise me. He was Minister of Justice for the
first term of the previous Labor government where their only
clearly articulated goal in the whole justice sector was to
reduce a number of prisoners, no matter what was going
on in the community. So we had a whole period
where crime became a real issue in our country, and
so he's very much part and parcel of that. And
you know, I will he talks about humanity. If this
(03:48):
was the only thing we were doing to deal with
anti social behavior, and then we could rightly be criticized.
But of course it's not across government. We're spending hundreds
of millions of dollars on helping people who with housing
emergency housing particular issues. There spend the huge resources on
addiction and all those sorts of things. So we've got
(04:10):
lots of tools.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
From both parties, but it's not the numbers are increasing
on the streets.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, not necessarily. It depends and that they did go
up substantially over COVID, but we've made good progress and
it varies from city to city. And you know, my
sympathy is with the particularly the small retail owners who
put their life saving into their little shop or their
cafe and have to deal with people outside the entrance,
(04:37):
creating an environment where people just frankly don't want to
go anywhere near the place. And so we've got to
have some tools. Everybody's been calling for it, apart from
apparently Andrew Little No.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
You know, we all sympathize with a lot of the businesses,
but there's other things that we have to take into account.
And so Goldie talks about I know the stats are
not there, but all the different groups and you have
spoken to them, have seen homelesses is going Homelessness is
going through the roof that these guys don't know how
to count people on the st you know, we're walking
(05:07):
over we're walking over people. It's just terrible seeing stuff
that you don't want to. Well, I've seen stuff in
you and I have been around a while, you longer,
But that's Unca you long call. Now you've seen stuff
and you'll beloved city that you've never seen before, right,
and you've seen businesses struggling, and then you've seen people
on the streets and you must you'll be like me
(05:28):
and you think, what the hell is that blake doing there?
You know one how long he's been lying here? What
can I do for him? I know you'd be thinking that,
how can I support him? These guys have not put
enough support in place. They've dismantled something that we put
in place in terms of the emergency housing we are
some where the homeless are, they wouldn't have a clue,
they don't care, and they put an inhumane legislation, which
(05:50):
is what we're talking about here. Just get them off
the streets, That's what Shane Jones said. Shane Jones said,
if it was me, I'd get them off the streets
in the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well yeah, so, your fellow minister. But once again, you know,
oversimplifying and mischaracterizing what I think is a very carefully
balanced response. Like I say, we've got lots of lots
of tools with which to help those who are in need,
but we also need to have a tool to deal
with that very small group of people who who don't
work for whatever reason, want to take that and to
(06:18):
give some the police some powers to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Can I just ask you both for individual same question.
You've both spent a lot of time in Wellington, Yes, right,
a lot of time. You don't live in Wellington, but
you spend a lot of time. Has anything improved in
the last twelve months Willie Jackson.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
For Wellington, Yeah, in terms of the over just.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
A feel of it and everyone singing from the rooftops.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
No, the only thing is that's improved is your rugby team, right,
there's no doubt about wonderful Hurricanes on a magnificent side.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And so your chief too, aren't you a chief?
Speaker 4 (06:50):
No Hurricane supporter? Now, I love Ardie Savvier. I just
think he's the most fabulous player, captain and good on
the Hurricanes. You know they just that's but that nothing's improved,
you know it's gone backwards. But there's hope. There's a
light at the end of the tunnel because you've got
a great here and Andrew Andrew Little will find a way.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Look, I think Wellington's had its challenges and three or
four years ago or six years ago there you could
blow a tumble weed down the street because everybody was
working from home. And and so we've got people back
into the CBD. It's it's a it's a long, hard
slog and the challenge for Wellington of courses not to
rely just solely on the public service, but to get
some some you know, economy going, some commercial activity and
(07:36):
there's some real goods foundations in certain industries, film and
all that sort of stuff. But there's much more to
be done and ultimately there needs to be a you know,
a looking at the sort of cost structure of how
it operates and also you know, just some practical things
to draw people into the CBD, not to make it
so difficult. And so that's what they're trying to turn around.
(07:59):
So it's a mix of local governments and central government.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean you must you know, they're in the city
better than anyone. I mean remember ten years ago, it
was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
People used to all over New Zealand and talk about
coming to Wellington for a week.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Hed I used to love it. You know what happens,
you know what I think a friend friend of the
whole what was it? Positively Wellington. Absolutely, And you know
I used to come here. I'll tell you something. When
I was a young union official in the eighties. You
call him. There was no restaurants. You'd have to go
to the pie card at the railway station. It's just incredible.
The transformation in Wellington was one of the biggest I
(08:31):
think around the world. Was just made it just a great.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Younger than me before you started to talk about stuff.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Not that much younger.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, there's Wellington can still thrive and I think it's
stays ahead of it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, Okay, take.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
A short break. Okay, Paul Goldsmith and Willie Jackson, let's
talk about the polls, shall we. You combine national labor,
both your parties worse than how many years, thirty years?
You combine them. Who wants to go first on this?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Oh well, look at the Boles come and go. But
absolutely if you see the broad scent right still in
the position most poles to form a government, and we're
very determined to do that and the country needs that. Frankly,
We've had three years to help turn around the state
of the country and we need some more time to
do that after the mess that was left beforehand. So
(09:21):
and of course, you know, national we want to get
our party vote as high as we can so we
have greater influence on the government. So exciting times and
we're into it.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
These guys are in big trouble. Big trouble, I think.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I think you just slid by five percent in.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
The last ball, so you're in big trouble. Thirty two
was our lowest actually for the last couple of months
because all our tour Book Mills Poles of telling us
somewhere between thirty five and thirty eight, although we did
drop down to thirty three about three weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So to be fear though the Talbot Mills ones always
have you hired to.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Be fair, the Tybook Mills Pole called it absolutely one
hundred percent at the last election, and to be fair,
every other number of the Talbooth Mills Pole said, and
that last week was what came up in the TV
in TV inzed polls. So so you can say the
same about the textpayer's poll too. But but but you know,
(10:14):
so so so that that was an utter the point
I would say it was an outliner poll the TV
in one.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But we're still we started to see the start of
real pop.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
We're still we're still comfortable. You know, that left block
was was looking fine. We were the government on that
left block on that pole. The reality is that it's
very tight. I've seen it all along that it's it's
any ones and it's anyone. These guys are over confident,
they thinking that they're going to wrong phone. I'm saying
that it's very close. We have to get people out there,
(10:49):
and people are kicking up. That's why you're seeing the
numbers where they're at. And and this party, for all
their carry on and now tuning their tuning on their mates.
You should see the way they're checking. Unbelievable, we're checking
a coalition partner the way they are finished.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Look, I mean, I mean the elections of the polls
are tight, and they are always tight. I came in
in twenty eleven when after one term of John Key,
he was at the height of his powers, and you
might recall the National was returned by one seat majority.
So yeah, things are always tight in MMP. There's a
lot to play for. Of course, when Labor gets around
to releasing some policy, then I think we'll have a
(11:26):
decent discussion and people will see what the choices are.
The choices are more tax more spend, more borrowing under
the old regime, extra capital gains tax. And if you
believe for a moment that it's going to stop there,
you believe in Santa Claus. So we'll be focusing on that,
whereas National's got a good clear growth plan and we've
announced a whole lot of policies I have seen.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I mean, you have been attacking New Zealand first and
Winston Nicola Willis was on the show, just a few
arguments here and there.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Fine, I mean, Winston, this is what Winston set him up,
set himself up for. The big King Maker is now
he's looking like a bit of a fool, isn't he.
You know, No, it's been highly successful. He's got it. No, seriously,
he's been a political phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I'll say that.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
But here you've got the old man, the great Kingmaker.
They just they know he can't go anywhere, so they're
just they're just rubbishing him. I mean, you've got the kid.
The kid went and we heard the kid the other
day calling them I'll wear the mother and father. This
is from the sixteen year old ministerial. You know, Guru,
the kid is the kid is rubbishing them, and Winston
(12:36):
just sitting there. I thought, Winston, wonder, what's happened to you?
What's happened to you? Why do you allow these? Why
do you allow these successful all over you? Will you
do anything to for for your national government? A shot
years three years ago?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I want to ask you both because I'm very fascinated
by top, very fascinated. I saw Q A one on
Q and A a few months ago, and I came on
the show the very next day and said, watch out,
she sounds like she's smart. She's got financial, big financial backing.
You're both looking at me a little bit blankly. Well, well,
it is a possibility. They could be five per sid.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Look, I mean, you know, they can go for whatever
they like. But the reality is, are the masquerading as
a centrist party and they're not. They are not a
centrist party. If you look at their core proposals, there's
massive increase in taxes and a universal basic income for everybody.
So it was very much aligned with the Greens far
left party. And so the more that they're exposed and
(13:36):
people see that, I think things will change. But you know,
at the moment they seem to be getting away with
this idea that somehow that they are centrist.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You guys ruled out working with them, they said they
work with both parties. Top.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Well, look something make a role that once the news
they have, but he gave away. I don't know why
he gave it. Well, just to work with these want
to go under the bridge. I can't work it out. Hey,
look well done to her. You know, she's you know,
they've come from nowhere.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And they've got big backs.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
They haven't come from nowhere.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
They've had three cracks and they've failed, and so they're.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
They're in contention. You know, we'll see, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Have you had any serious talks within your group.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
No, No, we've had no. We've had no talks at all.
They haven't approached us, and you know, we'll see how
it goes. But you've got to give credit to you know,
you know, anybody can hit four percent four months out
must be a contender. So we'll see how it rolls.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
But so if they got to five or six percent
and they became a king player, who would you rather
go with the Greens or them?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Well, well, we've already committed to the Greens, so there's
it's not about who we would rather go with. We've
already worked in government with the Greens and that would
be likely again if we were lucky enough to win
in November. So there's there's no debate about our relationship
with the Greens. It's rock solid.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
And just be in mind we were talking about move
on orders and law and order and so forth, and
Will he's talking about he's determined to go with the Greens,
and just just it's worth remembering that it's a state
of policy of the Greens that if you've got a
warrant o for your arrest and you're on the run,
you should still get your benefit. Currently, we cut your
benefit if you're on the run with a warrant out
(15:14):
for your arrest. But the Greens thing that's terrible. You know,
it's expensive being on the run. You should still get
your benefit. That's the sort of outfit that you're dealing
with there. Uh, And they will his mate and and
it's you know, to foster taxes, defund the police, all
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
And it's crazy to be fear of these guys would
cut your benefit if you missed the phone call. Right, Well,
let's go the other way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
It's not the case because you.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
A number of examples of people who have had their benefits.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Car can move on to another subject. Prince and Peters
has hit out against Van Valden's changes to the Health
and Safety Act. Uh, this seems a little bit weird
because he had plenty of opportunity to talk about it,
and then now he's come out and said, well, I
have to vote with the with the Coalition, but if
I become Parliament, I'm going to change it. Paul Goldsborth,
what does that make you think?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Oh, well, it just makes me think we're getting close
to an election campaign. But as a government, we've agreed.
As a cabinet, we've agreed and we're getting on with
and you know, looks part and parcel of just trying
to get some pragmatism back to laws that sometimes out
of whack and adding unreasonable costs for people to doing
some basic things, and that's what we're trying to deal with.
(16:23):
Same with earthquake strengthening. There's a whole you know, there's
a set of reasons why it's very expensive to do
anything in this country, and so just getting a little
bit of pragmatism into those sorts of legislation pieces are important.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Winston said, of course he wasn't. He wasn't going to
support the legislation. Then he says he's going to support
the legislation because he's part of the coalation. He don't
know what he's doing it. But at the moment on WinCE,
then you know, I'll support it. I want. But it's
a shocking piece of legislation. And well done to jan
Tinetti in terms of her contribution. We had all the
unions and workers and Pike River people.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So I'd like to get you, I'd I'd like to
you explain that to me as a small businessman that
wants to change a light bulb and I don't have
to go through red tape. I mean, you know this
is what that's about.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Now. Look, we're obviously going to suppor you were there,
but there.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Not because you're making some pragmatic change.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
There's nothing wrong with pragmatic changes. Now there is something
wrong if you're reducing safety for workers. And this is I.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Don't think anyone's I think she's stayed well. Low risk
businesses maybe they could get on and get.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
On with them.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Well, of course, but then why is Winston said, he
actually does not want to support it, but he feels
obliged because he's a coalition puppet and he's decided I
have to support the coalition even though they're they're they're
humiliating me, even though they're rubbishing me, even though they're
being horrible to me, Winston still wants to support them.
Well good on you, Winston. Let's see if you're still
the kingmaker. Come no, remember the same Why did.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
He say that he could help Mana Pacifica and then
want more time?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
To his credit, at least he had a crack. You know,
I think it's one of the saddest things I've seen
in New Zealand rugby union useless, totally useless in terms
of their support of Pacifica Multi Rag we too. You know,
they made enough money. They should have cut the miner
Pacifica some slack, Sir Michael Jones. You couldn't get much
(18:14):
better than Sue Michael Ardie save who's kept in them?
Why don't they just cut them some slack work with Winston?
Winston was committed to finding the money. You should have
given them a bit more time.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I think there was as much chance of him finding
the money as becoming Prime minister. At their election, National
announce announced plans to make key we savor compulsory and
payments over sixty five get them again, which I agree
with and think it's a pretty good idea. My question
Paul on this is when we start lifting all the
contributions and making it you know, the boss has to
(18:46):
give more, You as a worker have to give more.
Is that going to cut pay rises because at the
end of the day, you've only got a certain amount
to pay their staff and if it's going to Kiwi Saver,
that's one thing, and what's going to their pockets is another.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, I mean that's why we're phasing it in over time.
It's not happening overnight. And so you know, we've lifted
it from to three point five percent in the little while,
and ninety eight percent of workers have taken that up
and put their extra contribution, so it's half workers half employers.
So we're giving them time to ramp it up. And
ultimately what we wanted to see is people increasing their
(19:19):
savings over time. And you know, there's a lot of
stuff that we do in the short term. It's fighting
and Willy's got this and I've got this, but I
think it is important from time to time to lift
your eyes over the horizon and say, what can we
do long term to increase the levels of savings in
our You didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Quite answer the question. The question is if you've got
one hundred thousand to pay somebody, that's not going to
go up to one hundred and ten because you're paying
ten percent to aemisaver, is it? I mean, so the
work is going to be out of it. I know
that they're going to retire with more money and everything's
going to be good, but pay rises aren't going to happen.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah. Well, it's impossible to perfectly predict those outcomes. But
in terms of the employee contribution going from three to
six over a five year period, over a period of time,
that's plenty of time to work our way through it.
And how they how they sort of organize that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I'm not going to get an answer from that one,
will am I You're.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Not going to get an answer. And also, don't believe
them for one moment that they care. I mean, these
guys cut contribution straight away when they went in. You
recall that, don't you, So don't all of a sudden
Goldie comes out with all this beautiful language. Now, but
they didn't give us stuff at the start that they
know they can't. You're not supporting.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Now that you're not, you've done a complete reversion.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I know, the compulsory commitment. We're in the cost of
living crisis. For goodness sake working, you don't want to
break break workers. Of course we agree with the principles.
We're the ones who put this in place. But you've
got to ask yourself. Now, ask yourself that you've been
around a while. I was listening to the Bradbury Bomb
of far Bradbury file. Friend O Sullivan was talking with
Bomb of Bradbury and Matthew Houghton the other night, and
(20:51):
and and he said, this is all about them wanting
to get rid of compulsory super. This is this is
the plan, you know, And.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know that talking about why, I mean, you know,
I know that you must be close to an age
or an age of getting super. So why you think
we should lift it a little bit? I mean the
world is to the world's changed sixty sevens, that's still
like like sixty.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Key is the well deserving of universal super These universe
guys have got a little Clayton's plan in place. This
is a trojan horse. After six years, these guys will
start means testing everything.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
They will.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
These they will, That's what it's all about. I was
listening to them the other night. Six years down the
track means tis everything. God, I think it's gone. Shame
on this government. We don't trust them at all.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You're avoiding by question, yes, by question, why are we
not looking I mean you're you know, Chris Hopkins has
cut it out already. Why are we looking at raising it?
You know it's not going to happen overnight. It's a
twenty year plan. Why are we not looking at we.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Will be releasing all our pop Well absolutely, no, absolutely,
because we're concerned about news hard working New Zealanders who
should be entitled to get their super at sixty five,
we don't. We're not like these guys. You know, there's
so many Kiwis who need that super. We're not going
to change everything just to save money for these guys
(22:18):
so they can pay the company, so they can give
that to the lord's ten breaks, Okay, so they can
look orland guess lobby. It's a shame on this government.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
So they entirely have the head in the sand over
the age of super. And it always used to amaze
me that we used to have shammer Bill Yakilb and
all these guys when John Key was the Prime minister
saying that the Prime Minister's got his head in the sand.
He needs to raise the age of super. People are
living longer, healthier lives number one issue, over and over again.
And then just Sinda came in and said, oh no,
we're not going to do it, and then the issue disappeared.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You guys, you guys haven't made an announcement yet.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
The last two campaigns we've campaigned on raising the age
of super. Can you've got to do it at some
point going to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
They cut their investment into Kiwi Save and now they're
saying we care about New Zealanders. They care about the
rich bag into town. They don't care about your average Keywi,
poor undeniable thing.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Willie Jackson, thanks for coming in. I hopefully our listener's
got something out of that. I've got a headache.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I just want to apologize on behalf of Willie Jackson
for raving and raving.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I need a couple of the cup of the Lie down.
Oh gosh, I'm more confused than I started on the Hurricanes.
I'm a bit late. It's already great to jump on
the bedweing afterward. I mean it was last w said
he was a chiefs and of Blues supporter.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As promised during the show, we have been joined by
Minister Paul Goldsmith. Good morning, Paul, good morning, how when
you come a little bit closer to that microphone? Please
great to have you in the studio and your very
good friend Labor MP Willie Jackson, Good morning. Will he
and you come a little bit closer. That microphone can move,
you can get a bit bit closer to him. Look,
(00:34):
I just want to before we start, mister Goldsmith, I
just got to ask you about Stephen Rainbow unspecified conduct
concerns and an inquiry. That's your man.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You appointed him, Yes I did, and some concerns have
been raised and it's a very you know, it's a
highly independent role. So I've dunewar my ministry officials of advice,
which is to get a case to have a look
at them, and we'll take it from there. I can't
really say too much more than.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That, but I mean you, I've been told that you
that was your man, you wanted him, you got you
got him for that job because you thought he was
the right guy. And now we've got an issue.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, It's not the first time there's been an issue
with people who have been appointed to these roles, and
so you know, fear you've got to go through the
process and you know it's fair enough.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
What are you hearing, will he Oh, well, minister's got
to go through his process and you know we'll wait.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
That's that's that's that's a rare sort of statesman like
comment from Oh Jackson.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
I can show I can show those traits sometimes, Goldie.
You know that, so that you know you gotta we'll
go through this.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
This morning we've been talking on the show because I
was horrified yesterday afternoon to read about Warlington City Council
and Andrew Little going against the moving on orders and
basically picking a fight with the government. Willie Jackson, I
know that you're very good friends with the mayor and
I and I understand you you're going to try and
put something out of this. But isn't there a problem
(01:58):
when a mayor goes against the government when the government's
trying to help the city out.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Well, you got mayors going against governments all the time,
haven't you look at Brownie and Auckland. He ripped into
he rips into these guys all the all the time.
He called Winston and New Zealand first racist the other day,
you know, over the Auckland Maldi statutory boards. I don't
think it's unusual at all. The reality is with the
move on orders, they've got to be I mean, look,
we're all concerned about local businesses and I know you're
(02:23):
a local businessman and so we support you. But there's
got to be some humanity about this, and that's that's what.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I don't think there's any question about it. But the
fact that he's going absolutely fighting the government, well, I.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Think he's been really working reasonably well with the government.
I thought here he has good relations with him, which
he must do as a mayor, even though he's a
former Labor Party leader, doesn't matter. He's got to have
a good relationship with the with the government. But there
are some humanity questions here that people like Andrew are asking.
You know what, you know, where do these people go?
Where do they end up? Why isn't the emergency emergency
(02:57):
housing a strategy properly?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
In an all very fair com out. But Paul, when
you would have heard about it, you would have thought, well,
what is he going to.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Do in reply, well, look, I mean, you know, the
reality is that Andrew Little as mayor presumably doesn't want
to be talking about the basics around sewage, around water,
around all the wasted money on the Golden Mile, and
just getting the basics done in the city, and you
prefer to do a bit of grand standing around this
(03:24):
doesn't surprise me. He was Minister of Justice for the
first term of the previous Labor government where their only
clearly articulated goal in the whole justice sector was to
reduce a number of prisoners, no matter what was going
on in the community. So we had a whole period
where crime became a real issue in our country, and
so he's very much part and parcel of that. And
you know, I will he talks about humanity. If this
(03:48):
was the only thing we were doing to deal with
anti social behavior, and then we could rightly be criticized.
But of course it's not across government. We're spending hundreds
of millions of dollars on helping people who with housing
emergency housing particular issues. There spend the huge resources on
addiction and all those sorts of things. So we've got
(04:10):
lots of tools.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
From both parties, but it's not the numbers are increasing
on the streets.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, not necessarily. It depends and that they did go
up substantially over COVID, but we've made good progress and
it varies from city to city. And you know, my
sympathy is with the particularly the small retail owners who
put their life saving into their little shop or their
cafe and have to deal with people outside the entrance,
(04:37):
creating an environment where people just frankly don't want to
go anywhere near the place. And so we've got to
have some tools. Everybody's been calling for it, apart from
apparently Andrew Little No.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
You know, we all sympathize with a lot of the businesses,
but there's other things that we have to take into account.
And so Goldie talks about I know the stats are
not there, but all the different groups and you have
spoken to them, have seen homelesses is going Homelessness is
going through the roof that these guys don't know how
to count people on the st you know, we're walking
(05:07):
over we're walking over people. It's just terrible seeing stuff
that you don't want to. Well, I've seen stuff in
you and I have been around a while, you longer,
But that's Unca you long call. Now you've seen stuff
and you'll beloved city that you've never seen before, right,
and you've seen businesses struggling, and then you've seen people
on the streets and you must you'll be like me
(05:28):
and you think, what the hell is that blake doing there?
You know one how long he's been lying here? What
can I do for him? I know you'd be thinking that,
how can I support him? These guys have not put
enough support in place. They've dismantled something that we put
in place in terms of the emergency housing we are
some where the homeless are, they wouldn't have a clue,
they don't care, and they put an inhumane legislation, which
(05:50):
is what we're talking about here. Just get them off
the streets, That's what Shane Jones said. Shane Jones said,
if it was me, I'd get them off the streets
in the next twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well yeah, so, your fellow minister. But once again, you know,
oversimplifying and mischaracterizing what I think is a very carefully
balanced response. Like I say, we've got lots of lots
of tools with which to help those who are in need,
but we also need to have a tool to deal
with that very small group of people who who don't
work for whatever reason, want to take that and to
(06:18):
give some the police some powers to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Can I just ask you both for individual same question.
You've both spent a lot of time in Wellington, Yes, right,
a lot of time. You don't live in Wellington, but
you spend a lot of time. Has anything improved in
the last twelve months Willie Jackson.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
For Wellington, Yeah, in terms of the over just.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
A feel of it and everyone singing from the rooftops.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
No, the only thing is that's improved is your rugby team, right,
there's no doubt about wonderful Hurricanes on a magnificent side.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And so your chief too, aren't you a chief?
Speaker 4 (06:50):
No Hurricane supporter? Now, I love Ardie Savvier. I just
think he's the most fabulous player, captain and good on
the Hurricanes. You know they just that's but that nothing's improved,
you know it's gone backwards. But there's hope. There's a
light at the end of the tunnel because you've got
a great here and Andrew Andrew Little will find a way.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Look, I think Wellington's had its challenges and three or
four years ago or six years ago there you could
blow a tumble weed down the street because everybody was
working from home. And and so we've got people back
into the CBD. It's it's a it's a long, hard
slog and the challenge for Wellington of courses not to
rely just solely on the public service, but to get
some some you know, economy going, some commercial activity and
(07:36):
there's some real goods foundations in certain industries, film and
all that sort of stuff. But there's much more to
be done and ultimately there needs to be a you know,
a looking at the sort of cost structure of how
it operates and also you know, just some practical things
to draw people into the CBD, not to make it
so difficult. And so that's what they're trying to turn around.
(07:59):
So it's a mix of local governments and central government.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I mean you must you know, they're in the city
better than anyone. I mean remember ten years ago, it
was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
People used to all over New Zealand and talk about
coming to Wellington for a week.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Hed I used to love it. You know what happens,
you know what I think a friend friend of the
whole what was it? Positively Wellington. Absolutely, And you know
I used to come here. I'll tell you something. When
I was a young union official in the eighties. You
call him. There was no restaurants. You'd have to go
to the pie card at the railway station. It's just incredible.
The transformation in Wellington was one of the biggest I
(08:31):
think around the world. Was just made it just a great.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Younger than me before you started to talk about stuff.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Not that much younger.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, there's Wellington can still thrive and I think it's
stays ahead of it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, Okay, take.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
A short break. Okay, Paul Goldsmith and Willie Jackson, let's
talk about the polls, shall we. You combine national labor,
both your parties worse than how many years, thirty years?
You combine them. Who wants to go first on this?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Oh well, look at the Boles come and go. But
absolutely if you see the broad scent right still in
the position most poles to form a government, and we're
very determined to do that and the country needs that. Frankly,
We've had three years to help turn around the state
of the country and we need some more time to
do that after the mess that was left beforehand. So
(09:21):
and of course, you know, national we want to get
our party vote as high as we can so we
have greater influence on the government. So exciting times and
we're into it.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
These guys are in big trouble. Big trouble, I think.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I think you just slid by five percent in.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
The last ball, so you're in big trouble. Thirty two
was our lowest actually for the last couple of months
because all our tour Book Mills Poles of telling us
somewhere between thirty five and thirty eight, although we did
drop down to thirty three about three weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So to be fear though the Talbot Mills ones always
have you hired to.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Be fair, the Tybook Mills Pole called it absolutely one
hundred percent at the last election, and to be fair,
every other number of the Talbooth Mills Pole said, and
that last week was what came up in the TV
in TV inzed polls. So so you can say the
same about the textpayer's poll too. But but but you know,
(10:14):
so so so that that was an utter the point
I would say it was an outliner poll the TV
in one.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But we're still we started to see the start of
real pop.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
We're still we're still comfortable. You know, that left block
was was looking fine. We were the government on that
left block on that pole. The reality is that it's
very tight. I've seen it all along that it's it's
any ones and it's anyone. These guys are over confident,
they thinking that they're going to wrong phone. I'm saying
that it's very close. We have to get people out there,
(10:49):
and people are kicking up. That's why you're seeing the
numbers where they're at. And and this party, for all
their carry on and now tuning their tuning on their mates.
You should see the way they're checking. Unbelievable, we're checking
a coalition partner the way they are finished.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Look, I mean, I mean the elections of the polls
are tight, and they are always tight. I came in
in twenty eleven when after one term of John Key,
he was at the height of his powers, and you
might recall the National was returned by one seat majority.
So yeah, things are always tight in MMP. There's a
lot to play for. Of course, when Labor gets around
to releasing some policy, then I think we'll have a
(11:26):
decent discussion and people will see what the choices are.
The choices are more tax more spend, more borrowing under
the old regime, extra capital gains tax. And if you
believe for a moment that it's going to stop there,
you believe in Santa Claus. So we'll be focusing on that,
whereas National's got a good clear growth plan and we've
announced a whole lot of policies I have seen.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I mean, you have been attacking New Zealand first and
Winston Nicola Willis was on the show, just a few
arguments here and there.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Fine, I mean, Winston, this is what Winston set him up,
set himself up for. The big King Maker is now
he's looking like a bit of a fool, isn't he.
You know, No, it's been highly successful. He's got it. No, seriously,
he's been a political phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I'll say that.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
But here you've got the old man, the great Kingmaker.
They just they know he can't go anywhere, so they're
just they're just rubbishing him. I mean, you've got the kid.
The kid went and we heard the kid the other
day calling them I'll wear the mother and father. This
is from the sixteen year old ministerial. You know, Guru,
the kid is the kid is rubbishing them, and Winston
(12:36):
just sitting there. I thought, Winston, wonder, what's happened to you?
What's happened to you? Why do you allow these? Why
do you allow these successful all over you? Will you
do anything to for for your national government? A shot
years three years ago?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I want to ask you both because I'm very fascinated
by top, very fascinated. I saw Q A one on
Q and A a few months ago, and I came on
the show the very next day and said, watch out,
she sounds like she's smart. She's got financial, big financial backing.
You're both looking at me a little bit blankly. Well, well,
it is a possibility. They could be five per sid.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Look, I mean, you know, they can go for whatever
they like. But the reality is, are the masquerading as
a centrist party and they're not. They are not a
centrist party. If you look at their core proposals, there's
massive increase in taxes and a universal basic income for everybody.
So it was very much aligned with the Greens far
left party. And so the more that they're exposed and
(13:36):
people see that, I think things will change. But you know,
at the moment they seem to be getting away with
this idea that somehow that they are centrist.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You guys ruled out working with them, they said they
work with both parties. Top.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Well, look something make a role that once the news
they have, but he gave away. I don't know why
he gave it. Well, just to work with these want
to go under the bridge. I can't work it out. Hey,
look well done to her. You know, she's you know,
they've come from nowhere.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And they've got big backs.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
They haven't come from nowhere.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
They've had three cracks and they've failed, and so they're.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
They're in contention. You know, we'll see, we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Have you had any serious talks within your group.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
No, No, we've had no. We've had no talks at all.
They haven't approached us, and you know, we'll see how
it goes. But you've got to give credit to you know,
you know, anybody can hit four percent four months out
must be a contender. So we'll see how it rolls.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
But so if they got to five or six percent
and they became a king player, who would you rather
go with the Greens or them?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Well, well, we've already committed to the Greens, so there's
it's not about who we would rather go with. We've
already worked in government with the Greens and that would
be likely again if we were lucky enough to win
in November. So there's there's no debate about our relationship
with the Greens. It's rock solid.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
And just be in mind we were talking about move
on orders and law and order and so forth, and
Will he's talking about he's determined to go with the Greens,
and just just it's worth remembering that it's a state
of policy of the Greens that if you've got a
warrant o for your arrest and you're on the run,
you should still get your benefit. Currently, we cut your
benefit if you're on the run with a warrant out
(15:14):
for your arrest. But the Greens thing that's terrible. You know,
it's expensive being on the run. You should still get
your benefit. That's the sort of outfit that you're dealing
with there. Uh, And they will his mate and and
it's you know, to foster taxes, defund the police, all
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
And it's crazy to be fear of these guys would
cut your benefit if you missed the phone call. Right, Well,
let's go the other way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
It's not the case because you.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
A number of examples of people who have had their benefits.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Car can move on to another subject. Prince and Peters
has hit out against Van Valden's changes to the Health
and Safety Act. Uh, this seems a little bit weird
because he had plenty of opportunity to talk about it,
and then now he's come out and said, well, I
have to vote with the with the Coalition, but if
I become Parliament, I'm going to change it. Paul Goldsborth,
what does that make you think?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Oh, well, it just makes me think we're getting close
to an election campaign. But as a government, we've agreed.
As a cabinet, we've agreed and we're getting on with
and you know, looks part and parcel of just trying
to get some pragmatism back to laws that sometimes out
of whack and adding unreasonable costs for people to doing
some basic things, and that's what we're trying to deal with.
(16:23):
Same with earthquake strengthening. There's a whole you know, there's
a set of reasons why it's very expensive to do
anything in this country, and so just getting a little
bit of pragmatism into those sorts of legislation pieces are important.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Winston said, of course he wasn't. He wasn't going to
support the legislation. Then he says he's going to support
the legislation because he's part of the coalation. He don't
know what he's doing it. But at the moment on WinCE,
then you know, I'll support it. I want. But it's
a shocking piece of legislation. And well done to jan
Tinetti in terms of her contribution. We had all the
unions and workers and Pike River people.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So I'd like to get you, I'd I'd like to
you explain that to me as a small businessman that
wants to change a light bulb and I don't have
to go through red tape. I mean, you know this
is what that's about.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Now. Look, we're obviously going to suppor you were there,
but there.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Not because you're making some pragmatic change.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
There's nothing wrong with pragmatic changes. Now there is something
wrong if you're reducing safety for workers. And this is I.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Don't think anyone's I think she's stayed well. Low risk
businesses maybe they could get on and get.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
On with them.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Well, of course, but then why is Winston said, he
actually does not want to support it, but he feels
obliged because he's a coalition puppet and he's decided I
have to support the coalition even though they're they're they're
humiliating me, even though they're rubbishing me, even though they're
being horrible to me, Winston still wants to support them.
Well good on you, Winston. Let's see if you're still
the kingmaker. Come no, remember the same Why did.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
He say that he could help Mana Pacifica and then
want more time?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
To his credit, at least he had a crack. You know,
I think it's one of the saddest things I've seen
in New Zealand rugby union useless, totally useless in terms
of their support of Pacifica Multi Rag we too. You know,
they made enough money. They should have cut the miner
Pacifica some slack, Sir Michael Jones. You couldn't get much
(18:14):
better than Sue Michael Ardie save who's kept in them?
Why don't they just cut them some slack work with Winston?
Winston was committed to finding the money. You should have
given them a bit more time.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I think there was as much chance of him finding
the money as becoming Prime minister. At their election, National
announce announced plans to make key we savor compulsory and
payments over sixty five get them again, which I agree
with and think it's a pretty good idea. My question
Paul on this is when we start lifting all the
contributions and making it you know, the boss has to
(18:46):
give more, You as a worker have to give more.
Is that going to cut pay rises because at the
end of the day, you've only got a certain amount
to pay their staff and if it's going to Kiwi Saver,
that's one thing, and what's going to their pockets is another.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well, I mean that's why we're phasing it in over time.
It's not happening overnight. And so you know, we've lifted
it from to three point five percent in the little while,
and ninety eight percent of workers have taken that up
and put their extra contribution, so it's half workers half employers.
So we're giving them time to ramp it up. And
ultimately what we wanted to see is people increasing their
(19:19):
savings over time. And you know, there's a lot of
stuff that we do in the short term. It's fighting
and Willy's got this and I've got this, but I
think it is important from time to time to lift
your eyes over the horizon and say, what can we
do long term to increase the levels of savings in
our You didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Quite answer the question. The question is if you've got
one hundred thousand to pay somebody, that's not going to
go up to one hundred and ten because you're paying
ten percent to aemisaver, is it? I mean, so the
work is going to be out of it. I know
that they're going to retire with more money and everything's
going to be good, but pay rises aren't going to happen.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah. Well, it's impossible to perfectly predict those outcomes. But
in terms of the employee contribution going from three to
six over a five year period, over a period of time,
that's plenty of time to work our way through it.
And how they how they sort of organize that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I'm not going to get an answer from that one,
will am I You're.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Not going to get an answer. And also, don't believe
them for one moment that they care. I mean, these
guys cut contribution straight away when they went in. You
recall that, don't you, So don't all of a sudden
Goldie comes out with all this beautiful language. Now, but
they didn't give us stuff at the start that they
know they can't. You're not supporting.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Now that you're not, you've done a complete reversion.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I know, the compulsory commitment. We're in the cost of
living crisis. For goodness sake working, you don't want to
break break workers. Of course we agree with the principles.
We're the ones who put this in place. But you've
got to ask yourself. Now, ask yourself that you've been
around a while. I was listening to the Bradbury Bomb
of far Bradbury file. Friend O Sullivan was talking with
Bomb of Bradbury and Matthew Houghton the other night, and
(20:51):
and and he said, this is all about them wanting
to get rid of compulsory super. This is this is
the plan, you know, And.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know that talking about why, I mean, you know,
I know that you must be close to an age
or an age of getting super. So why you think
we should lift it a little bit? I mean the
world is to the world's changed sixty sevens, that's still
like like sixty.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Key is the well deserving of universal super These universe
guys have got a little Clayton's plan in place. This
is a trojan horse. After six years, these guys will
start means testing everything.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
They will.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
These they will, That's what it's all about. I was
listening to them the other night. Six years down the
track means tis everything. God, I think it's gone. Shame
on this government. We don't trust them at all.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You're avoiding by question, yes, by question, why are we
not looking I mean you're you know, Chris Hopkins has
cut it out already. Why are we looking at raising it?
You know it's not going to happen overnight. It's a
twenty year plan. Why are we not looking at we.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Will be releasing all our pop Well absolutely, no, absolutely,
because we're concerned about news hard working New Zealanders who
should be entitled to get their super at sixty five,
we don't. We're not like these guys. You know, there's
so many Kiwis who need that super. We're not going
to change everything just to save money for these guys
(22:18):
so they can pay the company, so they can give
that to the lord's ten breaks, Okay, so they can
look orland guess lobby. It's a shame on this government.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
So they entirely have the head in the sand over
the age of super. And it always used to amaze
me that we used to have shammer Bill Yakilb and
all these guys when John Key was the Prime minister
saying that the Prime Minister's got his head in the sand.
He needs to raise the age of super. People are
living longer, healthier lives number one issue, over and over again.
And then just Sinda came in and said, oh no,
we're not going to do it, and then the issue disappeared.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You guys, you guys haven't made an announcement yet.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
The last two campaigns we've campaigned on raising the age
of super. Can you've got to do it at some
point going to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
They cut their investment into Kiwi Save and now they're
saying we care about New Zealanders. They care about the
rich bag into town. They don't care about your average Keywi,
poor undeniable thing.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Willie Jackson, thanks for coming in. I hopefully our listener's
got something out of that. I've got a headache.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I just want to apologize on behalf of Willie Jackson
for raving and raving.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I need a couple of the cup of the Lie down.
Oh gosh, I'm more confused than I started on the Hurricanes.
I'm a bit late. It's already great to jump on
the bedweing afterward. I mean it was last w said
he was a chiefs and of Blues supporter.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com