Wellington City Missioner Murray Edridge on MSD emergency housing storm

Wellington City Missioner Reverend Murray Edridge says the country's homeless situation is "significantly worse than it's ever been", and the reduction of numbers for those in emergency housing is not a reflection of reality.

This comes as an investigation by Q+A has revealed the Ministry of Social Development has a target metric for employees to decrease the number of people receiving emergency housing services.

Rev. Edridge joins Nick Mills on the show this morning to talk about his first hand experience trying to support people in need of shelter and homes.

He says National selling the reduction in emergency housing stats as a success, yet times have "never been as hard" is a "tragic outcome".

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks. D B.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Murray Edreds is the Wellington City Mission and he joins
us this morning.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Good morning, Murray, Good morning Nick.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Did you watch the Q and A program yesterday or
have you seen it?

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yes? I did see it. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
What did it actually make you feel when you're sitting
there watching it?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well?

Speaker 4 (00:30):
This is an interesting one, Nick, because you know, we
knew that the government were really clear that they wanted
to reduce the number of people in emergency housing. The
mechanism they're using clearly is something we didn't know precisely
but has now come out in the public domain.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
I mean, I'm not.

Speaker 4 (00:49):
An advocate for emergency housing, but because I don't think
there's a mechanism at works, so I'm in agreement with
the government on that. The problem is we've got a
whole lot of people that need something, and if you're
going to take away the emergency housing, something better needs
to be put in its place, and there's no evidence
that's been done to date.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
What part of emergency don't people understand? I mean, it's
not like, oh, I've got to move out of my
apartment in a couple of months, I've got nowhere they
need housing that particular night.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
That's the That's absolutely right, and emergency housing is exactly
that I need it now because my circumstances are so
dire that I have no other alternatives. And I agree
with my colleague in Auckland on this that actually the
number we've seen, an increasing number of people sleeping rough

(01:39):
on the street is a direct response to not having
that place of last resort.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
But so when you saw that, and you saw that
they were actually incentifying employees to actually not put people
in emergency housing. They're going to have to come to
you those people or they have to go and live
on the streets.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, that's right.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
And as I say, emergency housing should be used less
than it was, and so I agree with the intention.
I want people to be treated better. See, a better
option is to get people into housing that has support
structures around them, perhaps transitional housing, because that's about ensuring
people's circumstances improved. Emergency housing is just nowhere else to go.

(02:24):
Will stick you in here, It'll keep you safe for
the moment. The reality is the other side of that
equation hasn't happened as you know, in my experience anyway,
so I'm not seeing the other things available. So in
that case, emergency housing has to be a usable mechanism.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
But surely there's there, you know, there's a.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
Political will not to do it, and and I understand why,
but you've got to have alternatives.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
But surely it shouldn't be a targeted number. Surely that
you know that we should say, well this, you know
Nick needs some help, and he needs it right now,
but don't apply because you're not going to get it.
We've got no emergency accommodation. Anything to stop them Nick
from getting a place isn't good.

Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, Look, anything that has an absolute about it doesn't
make any sense. You can have an intention to reduce
it because it's not the best mechanism.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
But if you say we've only got.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
This many numbers irrespective of what the need is, then
then that isn't isn't a sensible response at all?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
What are your numbers like, Murray?

Speaker 3 (03:25):
I mean increasing, just just going through the roofs.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
So if there's never been as hard as it is.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Now, So if Nick knocked on your door at four
o'clock today, look I've been kicked out. I've got nowhere
to live, I'm tired, I'm hungry. Would Nick get a
place with you tonight? Or would you send them to
TOMSD Where would you send them?

Speaker 4 (03:49):
Nick's always welcome in our place, as everybody is, and.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
We will we will explore the options.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
The trouble is those options now are less and we
have less.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Alternatives to explore. Now. We will never turn people.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Away, but it's then saying well, okay, or what do
we do with them?

Speaker 3 (04:08):
Because there's no way.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
That the current capacity, restricted as it has been in
recent times, is going to respond to the need we
have in the community.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
So we are caught literally.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
Between a rock and a hard place that there where
are people to go, and but you know, we always
endeavor to do the best thing. What we are seeing
from government often is a declining of people because of
things like they've contributed to their own circumstances. Often people
have made decisions, and they may be good decisions to

(04:40):
keep them safe, or they may be poor decisions, but
based on you know, the state of their health or
their well being or their mental health. And if people
have made those decisions, that shouldn't preclude them from having
the support that they might need.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
How many people actually go from emergency housing into more
permanent housing or end up in the street. What are
the numbers look like?

Speaker 4 (05:04):
The intention is that if you're an EMERGENC sea housing,
it just.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Keeps you safe for the moment.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
So hopefully most people in emergency housing go into transitional
housing or onto permanent housing. Unfortunately, in previous years emergency
housing did just increase an increase and increase, and people
got stuck in emergency housing for a very long time,
and that was the wrong.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Use of it.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
But as a mechanism for short term support when people
have no other options, then you know it's an absolutely valid,
valid response.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
So of the numbers are dropped like that, we have
been told they have been dropped. Is a situation for
those really really down on their luck better now than
it was two years ago?

Speaker 4 (05:49):
The situation is way worse now than it was two
years ago, quite clearly for people. I mean, the government
will will tell you emergency housing numbers, you know, they
they do sell it as a as a success in
emergency housing numbers have gone down, and you'd think, in
on face value, that's correct. However, when you look behind
why they've gone down, it's not because the need has

(06:10):
gone down.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's because the hoses, the places aren't available and aren't
being made available to people.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
So, you know, it's a tragic outcome really of a
social indicator, and it's certainly not a reflection of things
being better on the street, because it's not.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's worse.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
It is significantly worse than it's ever been, you know,
and you will have heard conversations about move on orders
in the context of more people sleeping rough, but that
more people are sleeping rough.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Because they don't have access to emergency housing.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Maria, it's great to talk to you. Thank you for
what you do.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
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