Loose Ends [10]

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You may start the conversation now what you're the world?
Hell those strains. I'm finally out the hold of everything.
I'm doing great. They let me out yesterday. You know,
it was the craziest thing. And boy, how the incident happened.
Boy will be a separate podcast except but you would

(00:31):
never believe. Maybe it's a good thing that went down
because a lot of role bluffs got out on the
way and a lot of rules got over pain. Wayne
was out of the hole and I dearly calls with him.
We're now back in full swing. They let me out
yesterday at the institute. You know, they were weigh out
of from listening on to said, yeah, it's going good
and all that, you know, and they're telling me they've
been following it all and and they explained it. And

(00:53):
I sat down with the ward and all three of them,
and I explained the whole project what we do sat
gen way, he said, because I was played him. I said,
you know, I'm not trying to talk to me. I said,
we're trying to do stuff to pace out on FLA.
He said, well, the people you need to get in
here and see like t I like, he said, do
you get with me and the lawyer and I'll make
it happen. They put me back in the same though
back it was, but everything they did a complete reset.

(01:17):
It had been a month since I last talked to Wayne.
Before I could ask him any more questions, it was
strictly business. He first set up a conference call with
Dwayne and I was up. It was hold on one second.
Wayne is on the other lines. Yeah, I've got Dwayne
here in Pain, and I want to reiterate the saying

(01:38):
they would Wayne on the line when we said to
make sure that everybody's off in fact, same page. Nobody
speaks for Wayne but Wayne. But I've never delegated chairman
to him. All the contexts regarding the interurnacy and the
legal affairs on that some Pain understands because that anything
regarding to release some documents and uh anything like the
case needs to come through Dwayne, because Dwayne is the

(02:01):
most knowledge below in this case. And my guys playing
to pay. You're the only person to Jim that could
actually what we're him to the neighborhoods. We introduce it
to the people he's gonna really need to see because
they're not going to talk with him otherwise. To to
beat the bushes and all see anything regarding my legal
case to the way where I'm delegating the things pay
regarding the legal case in contact, you go through Jimmy

(02:22):
on all of that, make that happen. And then they
regarding the documents or whatever, we have to go through
Dwayne and says in the institute of people I trust
to do that. The podcast was airing now and it
seemed like it was making Wayne a little antsy. Next,
he set up a conference call with his friend Jimmy.
You're gonna have to get mcgimpy. He's gonna have to
kick you meet all of these different people in all

(02:44):
of that takes money. It is you understand what I'm saying.
Like that, Dwayne is gonna do the same thing. When
they're gonna be suspects. They're gonna meet people who eye
witnesses to these things, but they have to take you
into goods. Did you cant going I'm being funny pay
but being a young white boy that places, you can't
go about yourself with this. They're gonna happen to you. Yes,

(03:04):
to you understanding what I'm saying is about He didn't
have one minute lesson they're the eyes. Yes, to get
it right, they'd be able to tell you know, it
didn't happen. That's what, Yes, it did happen that way.
Go by the would any of them say unless you
hear that for me? They could give you input and all.
But basically the ball, the ball stops will be paid.
That's what I'm trying to say. Wayne would have never

(03:31):
been cans if he was smarter. But the reason Wayne
was convicted was because of what he did understand when
he went off the way he went on in court. Now,
part of that was it was very welcome is at
Chinese fault. The first two days that Wayne was testifying,

(03:53):
he was cool. They was asking him questions about being
gay and all of this different stuff, and he was saying, look, man,
I don't know nothing about this stuff. I didn't do this.
I wasn't there. And he was cool, calm and collected
the dispense. Attorney told him to fight back on the
stand and that's what ended up really getting Wayne for
getting the guilty verdict. Because people was like, oh, he

(04:14):
is a doctor, Dico, Mr. The high person. It was
they heard come to me and do that was a
new story. Channel five ran he said Wayne Williams of tears,
too cool and calm. They were responded to a dirt
blue story. God, she told me Wayne, you need to
be more forceable. You're looking too calm and cool and

(04:35):
very threat quit if I didn't do that. And Atlanta,
another party was discovering today a police task force headquarters.
There are twenty seven faces on the wall. Twenty six murdered,
wasn't missing. We do not know the person or persons
that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morte
from tender for TV and house to forks in Atlanta.
Like a lot of other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers

(04:57):
apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta unlikely to catch the killer unless
he keeps on killing. This is a man of monster.
The first thing I asked Wayne was about the trial
when he lost his cool on the witness stand. Are

(05:20):
you're going to find out all of what happened behind
the scenes on this? Wayne doesn't agree with this, but
this is my theory behind that. I really think that
she was a plant. Dwayne is convinced that Wayne's attorney
Mary Welcome with some sort of plant, but he had
no evidence to back that theory. Even Wayne himself disagreed.
I was the one that shows Mary. They didn't choose me.

(05:42):
You know what I'm saying that was that was a
s furnament And you know, because I had known him
before another and be honest with you, I liked as
a person, how strong over and that's I didn't live.
He was fine. But that thing they do. But I mean,
but they didn't bring it to mind, that annoy yet
you would find she was fine, fine, It was fine, okay,

(06:10):
apparently it was pretty fun and Mary welcome. I asked
him about to blow up on the witness stand. This
was I think my second day on the witness stand.
And that was an article in the paper and in
one of the TV stations has been said that I
was being too cool and calm on the witness stand.
So my attorneys saw that and they were saying that

(06:32):
we need to do something we never they were a friend.
That was Lewis and jury. I was cutting off, being
too calm and colined, whatever the hick that means, and
so fid they say, why we need you to be
more possible and project yourself And I said, how do
I do this? I mean, how do you try to
present yourself in such a way because I don't think
most people realize there isn't a story book that is

(06:54):
the guy to how you respond to the witness that
I don't care what we can tell you about what
kind of perform as you move to. And I just responded,
you know. And and I was so upset that I
under sense. And that was a tragic misa me because
people thought I exploded and I thought, no, I was
well under control. I wasn't. I wasn't upset at district

(07:16):
Attorney's over saying I was upset and my laudeous but
put me in such a tragic situation. So that's what
my frustration was over. So do you need to that
played a big role in your conviction, no doubt, no doubt.
We we talked for a lot of the journ of
us afterwards, and and and I believe it or not,
you could actually see the look on their face and

(07:37):
I could sense it, you know, it was like they
were like, oh my god, you know. And the dad
I literally played myself by the stupidity into the teenage
hands and and and it was it was the turning
point in the trial. We felled out later on, you know,
and talking to Wayne and looking at the evidence of
this case. The entire case was built on fiber evidence.

(08:01):
There were no fingerprints. I mean, there are allegations that
some of Wayne's victims were at his house or in
his car. You mean not one fingerprint was found in
Wayne's house. He was that methodical that he cleaned all
of these fingerprints. No neighbors ever said, hey, we saw
these little boys going in the Wayne's house prison. Right.
If Wayne was not on that bridge, the case would

(08:24):
have been solved a different way, or it would still
be unsolved. Take that bridge out of the equation, then
what do you have? Vincent Hill reiterated several episodes back
the overall importance of the bridge fiber evidence aside. If
you take the bridge out of the equation, you don't
have Wayne to begin with. Let's listen back to Wayne's
version of the bridge. In Cent from one of my

(08:45):
first calls with him. Alpha doors of Pitch is Alpa
bed sized and one that was the first time I
a Woyd talk to her about thirty four o'clock. That's
what she said, you know, I to audition. I said, well,
before the audition, he needs to interview. He tried to
persuade the jury he really was out near a bridge

(09:07):
that night looking for us Cheryl Johnson, who still remains
a mystery to this trial. The state implied he fabricated
the story, but Williams didn't much from it, claiming the
woman simply gave him a wrong number and wrong address.
And I was suspicious because the information she gave me
there from evers Cansey. I said always she knows some people,
knowing that the stunt calls some names, and she didn't

(09:27):
know him for that kind of reason to plan to say, well,
why don't you come body apartment were I'm staying with
the thread. I think she did about seven futigue. I
gotta be a working at an apartment. That's when she
gave me the address. I mean you should by that
address and TVA and I told people are to see
you tomorrow morning. So as a matter of fact, if
you look at my statements, I even tell the police
said the on CONTs not when I took the address

(09:49):
B because I felt it was a fake address. That's
why I'm going out to shaking in the first place.
I don't know if we should. That's her name. That
was just the name that she did. We were doing
a public ord a lot of people being fat names
and sat address, so I say all the hoopla over
Cheryl Johnson's name. You know, she was a plane call.
The prosecution claimed that Wayne Williams had fabricated the entire

(10:12):
story of Cheryl Johnson, saying she was fake, and now
years later, Wayne agrees he was receiving hundreds of calls
from music auditions and every so often he get a
prank call, this being one of them. But regardless whether
or not Ryl Johnson was a prank call, Wayne still
claims that she called him. Well, at least somebody did.
Over the course of a few weeks, I kept asking

(10:33):
him about it, trying to pinpoint an exact timeline for everything,
and according to Wayne, it starts like this. Do you
originally did not call me? This was the key point.
She called my mother, En left a note, you know,
and my mother left her notes and I and this
was one of the one if I was leading. Now,
according to Wayne, Cheryl Johnson originally did not call him.

(10:56):
She called the number on Wayne's flyer, which at the
time was his house phone. He wasn't there, so his
mother answered. This happened the day before the bridge incident.
Anytimes about a call about an autist and I want
their UH college to do it, she would just write
a post it note you know about I talked to
her the next day. My mom was the one who
wrote the college. My mom wrote that. So Wayne's mom

(11:20):
took the call from Cheryl Johnson the day before the
bridge incident and wrote down her information on a slip
of paper to give Dwayne. But what exactly did Wayne's
mom write on the piece of paper? See this wrote comment,
See your mom wrote down her number and then where'd
you get the address from? For her pet On the
note his mom left him was Sheryl Johnson's name, phone number,

(11:41):
and her address. But Wayne did not make contact with
her until the next day, around four pm on the
same night of the bridge incident. According to Wayne, he
didn't call her. She called his house phone again, but
this time he was there to answer it. And and
the next day, um, she called back about four o'clock.
That's when I answered, you know, and I you know,
I think if something was wrong with this woman, because
how information didn't add up many it didn't add up.

(12:04):
This is where things started to get a little confusing.
So I'll do my best to break it down, Wayne says.
The next day he didn't call Sheryl Johnson back, but
she called his house phone again. Even though Wayne had
the information to call back himself. With so much emphasis
on the note from his mom, it seemed to add
for him to point out. So I asked him about
it again, just for clarity. No, no, no, she called
me pain the phone. I don't know what number she

(12:27):
called I called. I did. I did not call her back,
That's what I'm saying. I talked to her the after
the whole This woman claimed she was on the afternoon
of the twenty one, about four o'clock. We talked about
maybe five minutes, and when she missed the address, that's
when you know she was talking. I gotta be at work.
I said, well, we need to do not an audition
like dam but an interview. I said, okay, we gotta

(12:48):
do an interview before ne York digon. That's when she
was done. She got to go back to MTIS and
as when I started questioning her on maybe, I said,
we ought to know songs, so she didn't know anybody.
I mentioned the names that memp my radar went up
at that point quite a few people in the music
because she didn't know any straight So that was the
only time on talk to this one, Will claimed to
be shared. He talked to her around four pm that

(13:10):
day for about five minutes, and he claimed he was
already a little suspicious of her, but he agreed to
meet her the next morning at her apartment anyway, and
he said that that phone call was the first and
last time he ever talked to Sheryl Johnson. So, your
mom got the call from from Cheryl Johnson and then
she wrote down the number and the address the back
the information, right, okay. So did you have that note

(13:30):
with you when you went driving out that night? Right? Right?
That's that's the note, right, okay? So you did you
take the note? I put my clock boy, I had
about eight notes. In other words, we did, or if
it hangs about calling you back, okay, I mean After
confirming his appointment with Caryl Johnson the next morning, Wayne
left his house later that night to go find her

(13:51):
address because he was still convinced she was a fake caller.
When he left his house, he brought with him the
slip of paper his mother wrote down her phone number
and address on. So the night of the incident. What
time do you leave your house that night? I left
about six starting to pick up Willie. His first stop
that night was not to go find RYL. Johnson's address.
He left around six thirty pm to go to a

(14:11):
recording studio called Hot Lanta Records to drop off a
bill for photo shoot services. We went straight to College
Park meetn Wear Jackie Gado and the people of Hotlins
bought down about the apple and a little the field
for the photo services I had done. And we stayed
there until about maybe about about an hour and uh
I left about seven forty five and I had to run.

(14:34):
That was forgett it was a Thursday because I had
to rush back home to get the card of a
dad because he had a kawana's clothes beat that night
and he was late into the beat. But I had
to drop Willie when I got backwards about eight, maybe
a little after eight. I took Willie hon home first
and put the card of my dad. So after you
left the hot Landa Records, where did you go after that?
I went home. It's now around eight pm and he's

(14:56):
back at his house. You got home at eight, And
then when you leave the house again about one about
one that morning. Wayne says that he didn't leave the
house again until one am that night. In the FBI
case files, Wayne recounts his version of what happened that
night from that point forward. This is how reads verbat
him from the FBI documents. When Asta recount his activities

(15:19):
on the night of Williams stated that he had stopped
at the Santucci Lounge on West Peachtree to see Wilburt
Jordan's Williams was attempting to pick up a tape recorder
which he had loaned him. Williams recalled that he had
talked to a female who he stated was in her
forties and who was taking admission. The individual informed Williams
that Jordan had been in but was not around at

(15:41):
the time. Williams left a message with her regarding the
tape recorder and then drove to Smyrder, Georgia an attempt
to find Cheryl Johnson's address. I asked Wayne about this.
You know, when I went out, my intention was to
go to the club about one thirty that morning, but
I did get to record my attention about silver before
leer the club. Let me check on this address first,
and that's when I made the trip up to Cobb

(16:01):
County and all of his started transpired. But according to
FBI documents, we made to stop first at a club
called San Succi Lounge. Hey, I've got to staking I
sent you my I double made statement to anybody I
was going to the club. That was my attention to
get in recorder. I did go to the club until
the night of the seven. Wayne said he left his

(16:23):
house with the intention of going to the club, but
before he made it there, he decided to go check
on Sheryl Johnson's address first. Contrary to the FBI reports,
Wayne says he did not go to the club the
night of the bridge incident, but instead he went the
following night, the night of May. This whole thing was confusing,
so a few days later I asked him about it again.
When I did when I when I went on there

(16:44):
that night, I went to that, said Susie. First, I
understand what I'm saying, yep. I went. After I let home,
I went to the dances at first, all right, I
asked for uh, what would you all done? Get it
in the stand, And that was my change. When I'll
be back later. I left there and I went back
on I was gonna go home, and I mayn't let

(17:07):
me check the padress, so I went. I went up
dead to buy an address. So this would have been
about I'm cancering about two o'clock something like that. Wayne's
version of the story had changed. Now he's saying he
did go to the club that night, the same night
he was pulled over on the bridge. So which one
was it? I heard different accounts to right out of

(17:28):
Wayne's mouth. But one thing that's really important. Being a
liar doesn't make you a killer. People I all the
time doesn't make you a killer. Wayne certainly told me
two completely different stories about the stands Fugi club, So
a few days later I asked him about it again.
I'm confused about when you went to the club. One

(17:48):
time you told me that you went to the club
before the bridge, and then one time you told me
that you went the next day. Okay, then let me
correct that. Okay, So so we'll we'll understand over all
the confusion over both the club was is that I
went to the club first and for the bridge incident.
I went to the club looking for the manager, who

(18:09):
was a friend of mine. As a matter of fact
he was a co producer with my music company. I
did not go to see him again. The FBI and
the statements driving to turn it around and claim that
I went to the club in Salt, you know, Johan,
I never said that. I never saw you know that night.
What I did was the next night after the bridge incident,
which would have been the nine of the twenty second,
I went to the club and Sal you know, Joan,

(18:31):
I was going out to pick up the cape recorder,
and so I did see him at the next night.
Another thing we have pointed out to me in our
very first conversation about the bridge was something about his
handwriting and the phone number for RYL. Johnson. You may
remember this, and the only confusion in the statements was
over the thing on the telephone number in Cheryl Johnston.
The number was nine three four Seller Stember six six.

(18:54):
You'll see when you get my riding. I'm going to
see it was four three four of the seven six.
My boys and my eyes looked alike because I closed
loop them, so the fours and nines were mixed up
because his handwriting looked the same on the note, No no, no, no,
you hear everything. The number I wrote was four three
four seven seven six six. Okay, they're looking at my

(19:17):
notes in the car, and my rite thought it was
a man. You understanding what I'm saying, my mines and
my foes. Look, I can't tell the difference they assumed
by my writing was nine three four, and that incorrect
information lasting to this date. So right, that's where the
confusing came in on it. So when that's why the
note was stilling part of because the note would have

(19:38):
shown it was four three fourth not nine three four.
But Wayne told me earlier that his mother wrote the note,
the same note he brought with him in the car.
So your mom got the call from some Cheryl Johnson
and then she wrote down the number and the address
like the call back information, right, okay, So did you
have that note with you when you went driving out
that night? Right? Right? That's that's the note, right, Okay?

(19:59):
So you did you take the note I put on
my clipboard. I had about eight notes on this, So
how was that possible? Wayne's theory about his handwriting would
only make sense if he had written the note himself,
But he didn't, he said his mom did. Unless there
was a second note. I had an appointment book looked
me ahead the time, and and to be honest, which

(20:21):
I can't remember if I actually had the note from
Cheryl Johnson whipped me that night, bought a notation on
my appointment book. I'm pretty sure it was a notation
on my appointment book that I showed the FBI agent.
On the note that the FBI agent got, that was
my mom's handwriting. Before Wayne was stopped on the bridge,

(20:45):
he claimed he had pulled over into a liquor store
parking lot and used a pay phone an attempt to
call Cheryl Johnso you called the number, and what happened
when you called the number one? When when I'm not
on the number and I'm not on and then the
verst time I got a you know, I'm um this
number on this sermons und out and I doubt and
no the number and then I think was nine and stuff,

(21:06):
but I can't remember what. I've tried to uphone numbers
and finally called one number and looked like I whoped
somebody up and said, well, well master being there. He yeah,
hum up to down phone like that, not to say
it was the right number to the person say he eight.
He had just slammed the phone bounce, So I whoped
somebody up and I didn't try no more after that.
This story does match the FBI reports, but I was

(21:27):
still confused about the handwriting story and the mixed up
on the phone numbers, so I asked him about it again.
And so the FBI tried to call the number right
and then said it didn't work or what no, no,
no pain. They tried to call three four and now
or three four like you understanding what I'm saying. Yes,
So they called the wrong number, right, they tried. Yeah,

(21:48):
I've never called the nine three four one, and that's them.
I don't know what you know. The number I called
was four three four seven s six six, and I
got a lot of dude, I'm not in service or something.
I can't remember now. And I tried because if I
but about a minute, and I tried a couple of
more combinations at all, and I got one with somebody
else if he is slammed the phone down like that.

(22:10):
You know, So the number that you had the one
that they got wrong. Do you think the number that
you had was her correct number? I don't think any
of it was correct. That's the point I make it.
I think she was a focus call from the beginning.
That's my point. I think the Ryl Johnson was just
some story he made up really quick too in the morning.

(22:32):
Wayne could have said a hundred of different things besides
Cheryl Johnson, which police never found, the Ryl Johnson with
that phone number which didn't exist. Whatever Wayne was doing
that night, I don't know. Wayne possibly could be hiding something,
or maybe Wayne did kill Nathaniel Cator and maybe that's

(22:55):
why he and Jimmy are the only two murders he
was convicted of. But simply changing his story it doesn't
prove anything as far as you know, why not years
later Wayne said yeah, I lied, here's what I was
really doing. But at the same time, you could argue
and say why not years later, because let's be honest,
I don't think Wayne will ever get out of prison.

(23:15):
Why not years later say yeah, I'm gonna confess to everything,
and here's how I did it. Wayne's entire existence is
built on this. If he confesses, then you know that's
a rap. Wayne Williams will just diminish. If Wayne confessed,
he's Wayne was probably up to no good that night,

(23:38):
but I don't think it involved uh Nathaniel Cator. I
don't know that there. You know, there was that defining
moment during that trial. There was one for me and
as an observer that came at the very end, and

(23:59):
I still think it is some of the strongest evidence
that was presented in the trial. And I would tell
you that your audience has never heard of it. The
blood too of the last four victims were stabbed the
end of the stream of murders, John Porter and William Barrett.
There were two blood sains found in the station wagon.

(24:20):
They typed them, neither one on her Wayne's blood, but
they both matched the two victims that had been stabbed,
Porter and Barren. The link was suggested by showing the
jury this ripped up car seat that came from the
seventies station wagon driven by Wayne Williams. An expert from
the Georgia Crime Lab told the jury that she had
found that four areas of dried blood on the seat.

(24:43):
Two types were analyzed, Type A and type B. Prosecutors
then had witnesses testify about blood samples taken from the
bodies of John Porter and William Barrett, two victims found
with stab wounds. Porter had type B, Barrett type A,
the same as the samples found in the suspect's car.
The jury also heard the dried blood in the car

(25:04):
could not be from Williams since he was Type O,
the state obviously suggesting that the bodies of Barrett and
Porter were at one time on that seat. Of course,
the defense wanted the jury to realize the connection is
a shaky one since William's parents and the owners of
the car, and uncle and aunt and thousands of other
people may have had those blood types and driven in
the car. But if you could get to the blood,

(25:26):
I think if I recall us within six weeks, you
can break it down even further. You get into an
enzyme factor. They were able to do that. Both of
those two victims had been stabbed within the last six weeks.
Both of the two bloodstains in the back seat of
Wayne Williams car. We're fresh enough to be able to
break them down into the enzyme factor both matched Barrett

(25:50):
and Porter. Prosecutors continued to close in with a connection.
The jury, listening carefully and taking notes, heard that both
Porter and Barrett had an enzyme type one. A further
breakdown of their blood samples, the panel then heard that
both stains in the car were enzyme type one. One
of them. According to the testimony in the trial, that

(26:11):
particular blood type an enzyme factor was found in only
seven percent I care remember of seven percent of males
or seven percent of African American males, but of seven
percent the other one was found in only talking percentages.
The witness has said only seven out of every one
people would have Porters type be enzyme type one, and

(26:34):
that twenty four out of every one people would have
Barratts type A enzyme type one. Two victims stabbed two
blood stains in his car, and they both match. It
was physical evidence. That's not really circumstantial evidence. That's physical evidence.
It's not a fingerprint, it's not a murder on a videotape.

(26:56):
But it was very strong evidence. I thought at the
end of that trial. Throughout my investigation, the case of
Clifford Jones kept popping up. Jones's case stands out in
particular because many people feel there's another viable suspect for

(27:18):
the murder aside from Wayne Williams. I first found Dwayne
Hendricks from a YouTube video of Clifford Jones's brother Emmanuel,
and your brother's name was Clifford Jones. It was one
earlier morning on the people had kidnapped my brother, man

(27:42):
named Jamie Brooks. Horrors hopgood Freda cos these guys helped
my brother captive in a laundron matt right on the
corner how Dole What road. Hours later he was found
near a dumpster behind them, all strangled, wrapped in plastic.

(28:04):
His brother was inside being beaten and raped all day
before they actually killed him. In dispose of his body.
An alleged eye witness described the strangling of Jones and
identified the strangler not Wayne Williams, but a man named
Jamie Brooks. He knewed Wayne Williams didn't kill his brother.

(28:25):
He knew that. And despite all that evidence, the task
force blamed Clifford Jones murder not on Jamie Brooks, but
on Wayne Williams. The investigators reviewing the case file on
Clifford Jones released to Channel two News under court order
a file containing statements from five eye witnesses who point

(28:46):
to a suspect other than Wayne Williams as the killer
of Jones. Jones's case also stood out to Fiber analyst
Larry Peterson. To Peterson, Jones's case was one of the
only puzzles you couldn't put together. Clifford Jones case became,
I think important in my mind one because it was
the first one I went to and it was the
one that seemed to be the submit the need the

(29:09):
former task force. At this crime scene, one of the
things I did was examined the body. Look around the body,
you know, are their tire prints are there? Shoot prints?
Are is there anything? But from a crime scene standpoint,
and literally there was nothing but the body itself. The
only things I had noticed and collected was over twenty

(29:31):
beige carpet fibers loose in his hair, on his skin,
on his clothes, and I collected him at the crime scene.
That was one of the fiber types that I'm convinced
is important because they were so loose and so many
they had to be tied to how his his body
got there. Whatever sample came in, that was one of

(29:54):
the ones I would always go. It was the green carpet.
There was some other things, but in his case, I
always looked for the his page carpet fibers on any
samples submitted for comparison, and actually through the trial they
never matched anything. So that was always kind of a
mystery fiber as to what, then where did they come from?
That had had bugged me through post trial. It always

(30:17):
had bugged me. The thing that I wanted to know
most was I wanted to know everything about what the
evidence meant. So a year after trial, to satisfy his
own professional and scientific curiosity, Very investigated further. You couldn't
reconcile these missing pieces. So they had put these records
into evidence that they had these three different for pharamontmonts

(30:41):
the family was getting using its rentals. This was news
to me. It turns out between seventy one the William
Stanley was in possession of at least six cars at
one time, or another three being rental cars. I was
at Fulton County about a year after the trial, and
I went by the Hill Attorney's office and talked to

(31:01):
Joe Drole, and I said, is there any way if
the defense put those real agreements into evidence, is it
possible I could get copies? So he supplied me with
copies of the real agreements, which include then numbers and
descriptions of the automobiles. So I took that and I
ran it through our Crime Information Center, through the Vehicle
Administration and came up with the fact that those had

(31:24):
been sold as used cars, and I had GBI agents
go to those locations collect trunk liner and floorboard fibers
from those three rental cars. In the meantime, I looked
at the time sequences and when the rental agreements were
and what victims disappeared in those time sequences. Clifford Jones

(31:45):
fell to the same time sequence. So when that fiber
sample came in from the trunk liner and from the floorboard,
the first thing I found was that there beige carpet
fibers in the floorboard of the rental car that matched
the Clifford. Wow, you know, I had a I had

(32:08):
a stronger case after the trial than I even did
during the trial. What he found during his investigation was
the base carpet fibers, the ones he could never match
before trial, the ones that link Clifford Jones to a
car in way William's possession. One of those things where
everything built on everything else that came after it. Nothing

(32:31):
ever eliminated him, nothing ever eliminated White. Everything we would
come to kept him in the ballpark. Lewis Layton said
at the beginning of the trial. It's a puzzle and
we're gonna put all the pieces together. And as you
watch that puzzle being filled in, they kind of answered
every question for the jury. So it's a case to

(32:52):
me that its strength was in the totality of all
of it. Does he have any defense Lloyds than anybody.
He had a good one for a while, Jack Jack
markin Jack Spit attorney. I think if Jack saw something
here or didn't see something here, that's why he's not
involved anybody. I think everybody's most interested in Wayne. They

(33:14):
realized that he's the right guy, you know. So it's
I don't see much happening on the Wayne Williams right.
The bridge made it, the fibers made it, the blood
made it, the eyewitnesses made it. It was everything. And
they told you what Wayne's life was and how it
fit into all this, of his taking these cars and

(33:34):
driving for hundreds and hundreds of miles, driving in the
late night, early morning hours, picking up young boys, going
to be a music producer, never really producing anything. They
gave the jury a picture of who this guy was.
The story of Wayne Williams is one story because he
was charged and convicted with the murder of adults. That's

(33:58):
one story. But the other story the children, the girls,
the boys who were murdered, who were dumped. How do
you introduce evidence from another crime that the defendant's not
charged with. Georgia law allows you to bring in what
they call a similar transaction. Was a two part test.

(34:18):
You had proved to a judge that there was some
evidence linking the defendant to the crime, and there was
some evidence that the crime would show a pattern, a
scheme and a bent of mind of that defendant. Oh
my god, this is what Lewis Layton's going to do
with Wayne Williams. And we're going to have the child

(34:40):
murder trial. It's not going to be Jimmy Ray Paine
and Nathaniel Cater. I would say that whatever law Louis
Layton used at that time period, it was probably the
most expedient thing to do. If there were enough similarities,
then just dump it all on one. And that not
criticizing Mr Slayton. It's just saying it appeared at that

(35:04):
time to be the best thing to do. It gave
the public and again it answered a question in the
jury's mind, what about the kids? And they gave I
believe Atlanta the child murder trial. As I said before,

(35:25):
God was anonymous and I won't seeing him know why witnesses.
It is amazing we convicted him without any eye witnesses
that a single person came forward. And the witnesses that
we had were very shaky at best. They thought they
saw this. They thought what they said that I was
not involved in the trial, but they but again it
was all Harris or Fibers, and today it would be

(35:45):
a very interesting case. Wayne Williams told reporters at a
press conference in June that he didn't know any of
the victims on the task force listn't associates, no family.
The state has witnesses that will place the victims with Williams.

(36:09):
The next door neighbor of the Williams did say he
saw Wayne the day the suspect was supposed to be
with victim Larry Rodgers. Two relatives of the victim said
Wayne Williams was seen with Barrett several months before his death.
More damaging testimony today from other witnesses who claimed to
have seen Cater alive on May one. One woman placed
the suspect with Terry Pew, but in April of last year.

(36:29):
Five months after Pew's body was found, Margaret Carter, a
woman who lives in northwest Atlanta, told the jury that
she saw Williams with victim Nathaniel Cater, and this for
Bena Street Park a week before Cater's body was found
in the Chattahoochee River, and the witness also said alongside
the two men was a German shepherd. But the person

(36:50):
who stood out as the most credible witness was this woman,
Nellie Trammell, who placed Wayne Williams in a car with
Larry Rogers, saying the slightly retarded man was slumped over
in the past in your seat. A week later, Roger's
body is found near Simpson Road. A lot of the
witnesses were unrelowed when people got to remember that this
case gave the trial that was a half million dollar

(37:13):
cares reward or information into the risk in conviction of
anyone associated with the Atlantic killing, and an obvious by
the testimony that these motivated when they thought that they
would be able to collect reward for the party. Ken
Lawson worked in the Task Force headquarters, answering phones and
writing reports, but Lawson was amazed to see Nellie travel

(37:34):
as a witness telling the jury the elderly woman was
almost a regular at Task Force headquarters who would sit
there for hours knitting. Every time a body was found,
she'd call about it. It got to the point, he
said that recruits would try and pass Nellie's calls off
to each other and the witnesses we're just playing wrong.
Like one guy was an eighty nine year old guy

(37:55):
who could not see an elderly man who may have
been discredited by the defense it's because of poor eyesight,
testified he saw Williams with paying last April, identified me
of poliper was Jimmy Ray pain on banking at Highway
from a business of a quarter a mile away, and
he couldn't even identify me any court rooms, so you know,
he was laughable. Another witness came into the courtroom an

(38:16):
admitted just before testifying, he had just smoke. Another witness
nicknamed Colbury, he's putting Williams with. Larry Rodgers, was an
admitted drug user and in fact told the jury he
had smoked marijuana before testifying. His credibility was strained and
he wasn't able to peeck me out on the witness stand,
so he pulls out a piece of paper on his pocket.

(38:37):
Say yeah, but I've seen this guy in the dow
this paper. You know, it was ridiculous, because ridiculous. The
other hand, you did have some witnesses pay or just
playing wrong in their association. With one of those witnesses,
Ken Hynes, but thought he so Joseph Dale better a
court studio that we had on Janior the third. Kent Hinzman,
a twenty four year old songwriter, says he spent more

(39:00):
to January third with Williams in this Buckhead recording studio,
and there with Williams was a teenager by the name
of Joseph Joe Joe Bell. I remember Joe Joe because
he came in and he uh, he's sang for fr
you know, he's sing a few tunes and he had
a very good voice, and I was asking Wayne where
was he gonna do it in. Wayne said he was

(39:20):
going to sign the guy to a contract immediately. And
at the same time you had another state with this
testified that she saw me with movie on that same
day as recording studio system was Hill. A middle aged
white woman, Ruth Warren, told the jury she also saw
Williams with Jeter the day the thirteen year old boy disappeared.
He provided an alibi for me because we were recorded.

(39:42):
She knew with bucket miles away up from where to
get here, so you had to stay. Witness is complicted
with each other, but the witness could not remember under
cross examination when she told police about the sighting over

(40:09):
this story to help y'all. Lot of whatever y'all podcast about.
It's cool, man, but this ship won't. What I'm telling y'all. Recently,
a man named Tony came to the office and told
me a story he's only ever told his family. I
ain't making none of this man. This ship real, n
ain't trying to get no nigger in trouble who ain't
shouldn't be talking about or putting no lies on nobody.

(40:30):
It's true facts. Man, My cousin, we was going to
the Lamba Zoo, so we ever rode the bikes over there.
We snuck into zoo a matter of fact, you know
what I'm saying, with to one of the back gates
where had turned one way or the other. You know,
we slid through. So we had chained our bikes up
by side and we came back out to do the

(40:52):
bikes were gone. We were based right does this post?
You know what I'm saying, More like how we're gonna
get back home? I was living there then the project
it was called Greater Homes. So I was walking back
across the park going back to Greater Homes, and out
of the blue, this guy came off the top of
the hill. He was like, Hey, what's going on? Hey
y'all doing you're you're you're okay? I was like, yeah,

(41:15):
we find said somebody ha stole my bi silk of
you know what I'm saying. We was over at the
zoo and then we gotta walk back home. So he
was like you need a ride? Like now, we're good,
we we can walk. You know what I'm Sayings like, well,
my dad on this church is the pastor of this
church over here. It was like a the housing area
and I'm since I had remember that church because had
been over there. So I was like, yeah, I've been

(41:35):
to that church before, you know what I'm saying. So
so he's like, yeah, my dad is a pastor. He
said he'll take your home. Y'all. Ain't got to walk
all the way back to the Greater Home. You know
what I'm saying. I was like, well cool then, so
we was following him back to the church. I think
his dad is on to us a ride. Instead of
him taking us straight across the street to the church,
where he took up to the street and took us

(41:55):
up a pathway in the back of the houses that
we were along the street that led to the church.
That's when things tarted to feel a little weird. Why
are you Why are you taking up this way? I
kind of felt kind officient about while he took up
through this pathway. So by the time we got back
on the open the weather whether the church set off
the street, it's a car Paul back now. So he
was more like, y'all gonna get in the car and

(42:16):
get my dad, and my daddy gonna take y'all know.
So I was like, no, we're just gonna wait till
your dad to come, you know what I'm saying. The
man got anty and aggressive, and Tony knew something wasn't right.
He had to get out of there. So I like, anyway,
I gotta pee, you know what I'm saying. So I
piste on the side of the car. So my cousin
Bobo would like standing by the car beside me, and
he was telling my cup were you're just going to

(42:37):
get in, you know what I'm saying. So he was like, no,
I we ain't gonna get in, just gonna get your dad,
you know what I'm saying. So he started looking around.
When he stepped back to the car, ga he had
opened the car door. That's where he got aggressive. It's
holding me in a change. It's my old theory was
get us in this car. It turned from my dad's
and take your holy y'all, get your motherfucker' dad. And

(42:58):
this goddamn call. He had grabbed us in the back
of a church where nobody was around. He tried to
throw us in the car. For him to try and
get two at a time was a tax. So when
we tried to break through, when we started hitting on him,
and he couldn't let one get away and keep one,

(43:19):
and so he had to reach it two people in
two different direction. That's how we broke away. He lost
grill for one lost grip or we split it up,
and so I ran one way and my cousin ran
back the way we came. And I look back and
I'm right, I don't see nobody to hid me so
I'm thinking he probably got my cousin. So I'm running
up street crying, get way up down, you know what

(43:40):
I'm saying. Then all of a sudden, my cousin come out.
He pop up. I SAI out there, you get away,
he said, shot. I just kipt running. He ain't come
hid me. So I went back to the house. I
was telling my mom's I was like, I just tried
to throw us in the car, tried to kidnap us.
So I took him where the coach paul. I took
away where he took us to, and the car was gone,

(44:01):
you know what I'm saying. So the only description I
had then that he kind of favored my brother five
six five seven, you know what I'm saying. With glasses,
Tony told his mother that the dangerous man that tried
to abduct him looks kind of like his own brother,
a black man with bushy hair and glasses. At first,
the man was nameless, but then Tony sold the news.

(44:25):
In a year or so went back. My mama was
looking at it on the news and I was like,
that's the same guy who tried to grab both mom.
The guy who did it, I remember his face clearly
everything came together and I saw his face. I knew
that was him Way Williams. And so she was like,

(44:47):
you shure, I said, that's him. Might never get that guy?
Say you remember I told he looked just like Read.
And I said, now, don't he looked like Read? And
she was like, yeah, he do. Favorite in a little
bit like that said, I never get the face we
cause we fought with him, and there ain't no mistaken
and no I identity there. You know, I can picture
that whole day clearly. And I looked this man in
his face. You know what I'm saying. This man tried
to do man and and I know he tried to

(45:08):
do it though you know what I'm saying, one like
he was playing him. He got real serious, you know,
So he tried to put us in this car. In hindsight,
Tony realized the man's gestures were actually manipulative and calculated charm. Way,
don't we pray without suspicion. If I would have been
by myself, he probably would have killed me. He might
have took all bites. He might have saw his colm
down and took our bicycles. So he knew that we

(45:31):
were gonna have to walk back. He could have killed me.
People believe different type of ways. You know what I'm saying.
But I know for a fact what he tried to
do to me, and I know how caring in and
conniv here. It ain't never going to trick somebody in
the car with him. To Tony, it all made sense
all the stories about Wayne Williams. He says he saw
it firsthand. He wasn't coming at you like a monster.

(45:54):
He was coming to you like a friend, you know,
to get your trust, to get you in there call.
You know what I'm saying. That's why he did what
he did for so long, acause he made no scene
doing what he was doing. It was so normal how
he'll get you in that call with nobody recognize. I've
seen how he tried to do us. You probably need
to been talking to me today. Real told I don't

(46:17):
say I'm telling real. I ain't got I ain't benefiting
nothing from this. You know what I'm saying. My family
knew about this. I don't talk about this. Nobody ain't
come at you like no no beasts to get your attention.
He put up a hitching the here the babyball back
and throw you in truck and how he worked. Now
they was already from a low end call family problem.
Ain't had too much food in the house, you know

(46:39):
what I'm saying, Anything but swam a canon ball ice cream. Man.
Ain't got no remorse. Man, don't kill you, know what
I'm saying. He ain't sitting back in prison really crying.
He's innocent. He ain't really fighting that hard to let
folk know he need to be out of prison. He's
just doing his time because they know he killed the

(47:01):
mother church. They just can't prove it he did that. Man,
he's a monster, I know him, master killing a lot
of babies. Know what I'm saying. She's sad man. I
thought it was only fair to share this story with

(47:22):
Wayne to see what he said about it. Tony made
a lot of bold claims, but very convincingly. I asked
Wayne for his take. He Uh, He came into my
office a few days ago and he told me that
he thinks that you tried to abduct him and his
cousin at the back of a church, A pack of
a what back of a church. He said that the

(47:44):
man said his dad was a pastor at the church.
That's ridiculously you know. That's that's one thing about this tribe.
You've got people who who call forth with these stories
after the back. And you've got to remember, after my
picture was blasted all over the news on June the fourth,
You've had all types of people coming forced and I

(48:04):
know this guy. On My point is why were these
people before? Why were these people when these incidents happened.
You know at the time that they could not identify anybody. Now,
I'm not saying that somebody may not have tried to
abduct these people at all, but for what I'm saying
is that there's enough signs to togetherness. We know the
data prove that that witness testimony could be painted and

(48:25):
influenced by publicity after the fact. And that's no doubt
what happened in this case. And a lot with a
lot of these witnesses true, absolutely not. You know, that's
ridiculous right there. You know, I don't even know these people,
and and and here we are years later. You know,
I hear stories like that. You know, again, we've heard
it all from the years. But my point is, if

(48:47):
it was true, of these people would have come out
a long time ago. One thing I developed over the
years from from this thing paint, I developed a tough skin.
I've heard everything I've heard, even the jokes and everything.
You know, I've heard it all. But that that doesn't
phaze my results getting you out, you know, because the
fact is is that you know, I'm in of what

(49:09):
happened in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's that's the same focus
that I've got to have right now. But Tony story
wasn't the only one I was told. There was one more.
Don't be his lawyer. You know what I'm saying, Don't
be his savior, Don't be his guard. You know what
I'm saying, because I know what I've seen my own eyes.

(49:33):
At this time, I was staying on one side of
the town, the bank Heads side of the town, and
we had moved from Grand Paul and Unstead State there.
So once sign that I went over there to play
with my cousin, they'll make grand problems at Grandpaul playing.
Then when I left, instead of me waiting on the
bus at Nana Avenue, I went up by Atlanta Food
and County Stadium and I was sitting in the bus
stout waiting on the bus. And then a bit blue

(49:55):
Chevrolet pool up stopped in the middle of the street
and he left the one of that. He's a can
you tell him matter the mother Luther King? He said,
what what you stayed? I said, when I stay on bank, kid,
But you know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get rid
of going. He said, I get your ride. That's not
only eating nor ride. I sat back down in the booth,
you know what I'm saying. So I heard some car TiAl,
so I get back up in lootle. He whipped the

(50:16):
car around in the middle of the street. You know something,
But this is on the sun in front of food
and Counter stadium. Wasn't no game, so buses run slow,
ain't halding nobody, you know, moving something like I ain't
no more car coming back. So he w back up
by the bus stop and right up on the side walk,
you know, saying. So I jump up and I was
looking at the sketch. I was looking at the sketching
and back of my mind like this, ain't dude be
on TV, Like you know what I mean. So I

(50:38):
stood up and looked and at first I did jump back,
like is there for real? I'm looking at him? And
he stepped out with one leg and the little at
frow stick up in there. He looked me dead in
the favorite the glasses on. I'm like, bro, I really
got to be kidding because they already saying they're looking
for you. You know what I'm saying. And you steal
a lot playing And I had told him I didn't
eat no ride, and I had told him what Mother

(50:59):
the King was, and if you're from Atlanta, he didn't
really have to turn around right now. He could have
went down to the red light, made it right, and
went to Mother the King. When he pulled the car around,
he pulled up on the sidewalk like he was trying
to kidnap me. I can't be the judge of what
Wayne did. But the only thing I can say with

(51:20):
somebody to say he didn't kill out them churus. And
that's why I'll be standing him saying today, Waite pumped
your brakes. Everybody in the project. I knew they were poked.
So we didn't fight each other like they do now.
Gangs him. Now, we didn't fight each other like in
front of the project. You poled like me, you got
no reason to fight. But if we hear something about Wayne,

(51:41):
we're gonna your mom's gonna call my mom. Door neighbor said, Wayne,
why don't you trying to get her song? That was
the conversation man. Then, yeah, they were saying Wayne william
They weren't saying no man in the blue cold Wayne Williams.
They would call him by their name, so they did.
It's real to me, I ain't you ain't offer me

(52:03):
no money, You don't offer me nothing. I'm did telling
you what happened for real. You know what I'm saying.
We was already as kids, preparing for if he came.
And when he came, you know what I mean. No,
guys started buying a little pocket knives and stuff, you know,
like get a piece of glass and wrap it up
in the napkin, put in your pocket, like you know,

(52:24):
you ever got in trouble or somebody to pull up
and try to get you, that was your weapon. I
mean you listen, man, listen. I'm not trying to debate
with nobody, never about what I've seen or what happened
to me. So you know what I'm saying. I don't
eat nobody runn up for me. Twenty year later saying
what you see Wayne? You know? But I know what

(52:47):
I've seen. I don't have to keep on trying to
rehash it like I'm trying to convince nobody. You know
what I'm saying. I know Wayne, I don't see Waine
since then. You know, shook Waine hands just to get
in front of him. Like, bro, you know seeing me
before eight and nine, I was a young you know,

(53:11):
a little young rich dude that doesn't cut my fur dope.
Kay went down the road and uh man, they put
some dope on. But you know what I'm saying, They said,
dude up in the love library, but help you out.
When I went up there and seeing who it wolves,
you know it kind of I w was not not
came there and work on mine cave. You know what
I'm saying, Like that would just me Waine were working

(53:36):
in what they call the live library. No, wa ain't
in there. He doesn't kind of trick the folks saying
like I'm small, let me work in the long library.
So when you go in the long library, you got
the dope case. We ain't making friend with the dope
boys because he needs really protection, you know what I'm saying.
Like if I get in Google something of y'all, I
can get the rest of the folks on my back
because everybody got keen people in him. He is like

(53:58):
to Pope, people's lawyer. But here get in there with
the books and the entertain You see him he reading
the book, but you had guys in there who didn't
how I low your mind? And so I was like,
I'm some heart. You know I don't find to go
to college. So I started working on my own case.
So I'm sitting there. Way ain't just like y'all sitting there,
not that it made Wayne. You know, I'm saying, like
he kept nobody in my family or got people saying

(54:19):
he didn't do it. You know what I'm saying. So
so when you see you and said what you're here
for a little bro, you know what I'm saying that
you might not know he ain't William. You'd be like, man,
they're playing it some dope on me. You know what
I'm saying. That's how you broke when you're they're playing
it some dope on me. That wouldn't need my dope.
They were right up his atlet Oh. Now I can
work on his case and being my friendship U and
I can get people to stop saying I'm gonna killer.

(54:42):
So with Wayne would do a look over your case
for you your mean and be like, yeah, we're gonna
find this heyper crepy right here and get your case overturned.
You're gonna go home. So Wayne was in the hipping
people when you and now Wayne is your friend because
guess who is your enemate? The system? Everybody isn't ever

(55:03):
like when I see him, I'm gonna kill him. And
see if you got that one children missing? You got
that man? You got thirty four k folks in the
cools and their threws and brothers. When I see him,
I'm just gonna chok him. You know what I'm saying.
You know, but they couldn't get to him like that,
like when you go to the Low Library you sign
a piece of paper and they handcuffed and take you up.
Then they opened the door and throw you in thew

(55:24):
and you're like, she ain't might kill me you up
in the library. You know he might be done. Made
a shank and put it in the Low Library book.
So if he got a raise in the in the book,
he could jook you with your say, if he's a killer,
know what man want to face the story killer not
then no, one day do coming out and I want

(55:47):
to say he was from Capital Home. I remember we're
having a small conversation. He was like, I'm gonna get him.
You know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get him. I
guess the little kid Toba jt or somebody from Capital.
He got missing some kind of way. He turned the
cone in the library and you can hear the number. Oh, y'all,
you know what I'm saying. When I looked around the

(56:07):
way picking the glasses about the ground, you know that
tear coming out of his eyes and and I didn't
see that, I said, he just it. It was something
on his mind. He wanted to get out of like
you want to file for Wayne. We didn't ask for

(56:28):
this life with folded food stamps in the way. I
found the wick in the government cheese and the pile
of milk. Like he listen today. We had apartment. You
know what I'm saying. The lights was on, but when
on furniture, and I went on food, And I'm like,
where we're gonna get it from? One thought? One part
of history. I don't know. Somebody got to tear me

(56:50):
who started first, Hayden? It had to be one or
two people. It couldn't have been Jesus wasn't but somebody
had to start Hayden hatred and race sealson. They now
but telling us that in schood until a bunch of
us get together and start knocking at the at the
dope and have our own Niga man march or Blacks

(57:12):
and Whites not no where ass and protests. I don't
want you to go to jail for me, like if
we don't come together as one. And I said, we
can hear the conversation every week if we feel like
it will make a difference. But this Dwayne Williams show,
You know what I was saying, But we need another
show and we want to break the race relationss. If

(57:37):
there's one thing I've learned throughout my work on Atlanta,
Monster said, no matter how you slice it, this story
is bigger than an investigation, bigger than a trial, and
bigger than Wayne Williams. This case invokes deep emotions even
in people that weren't directly affected by the killings, and
from what I've seen, it's inextuably tied to a feeling
of social struggle. No matter who committed these crimes, the

(57:57):
people of Atlanta, particularly the black community, didn't feel safe.
We're sufficiently supported through sensationalized media and heightened pressure. The
children that were murdered almost seemed to become a secondary
narrative to the story of Wayne Williams. But it's most
important to remember how this all started. With Edward Hope
Smith on July one, nineteen seventy nine. I think cast

(58:22):
such as what you're doing pay are one of the
best ways to attack, dismissinformation and trying to get people
to open the eyes and see, wait a minute, you
know it's trying to wake up. It seeks truth. You're
trying to tell a very difficult story, and you've done
as best a job as you could tell him. Then,
so I guess they speak experts them because that's all

(58:43):
paining you tackle to probably one case, the very few
of us understand and and and and our command you
but trying Who is the Atlanta monster? We don't know,

(59:05):
but we really don't know. And I think that that
it's clear at this point that was never any single
a line of monster. I think that your monster is
probably a group of of some of these by supremacists
who vother some of these killers. I think your monster
is probably people involved in some of these six and

(59:25):
drug ranks that no doubt kill some of these victors.
And I think your line of monster may well be
the streets of Atlanta. In the cases in which to
pick us, we're victors the street crack. So I think
it's done an Atlanta monster. You probably need to read
latel it at line of monsters and put a plural
on the end of it. Wayne, did you murder anybody? Hell?

(59:50):
I have not killed anybody in my life. Okay, that's
the question people ask all the time, and it's a
question that I will for people to ask because, let
let me tell you something. You know, I can let
people in the eye because my soul is arrest with God.
I sleep very good at night because we've all done
things it's not life that are wrong, if we're not

(01:00:12):
proud of. They are probably billion things that I've done
in my life that I could have been arrested for,
but killing somebody isn't one of them. And I think
anybody who really knows me and knows my character those
that this is a situation that was strung stub against me.
So I sleep good enough. It's this murder mystery that
never ends. As you know, there's just so many questions.

(01:00:39):
We're fascinated by crime stories. This is never going to
go away unless someone is arrested found guilty of killing
one or two of these children, and somebody else is
arrested and found guilty of killing a child. Now it's
never going to go away. And even then it won't
go away because there will be still be people who say,

(01:00:59):
I don't believe he did it. This is a story
that will last longer than the two of us. There
is this growing sense that if we don't figure this
out now, maybe we never will. You know, is this
going to go into some Jack the Ripper style vault

(01:01:24):
of perpetually unsolved mysteries. I don't think it's opening up
an old wound, because I think the wound is healed,
because many people say Wayne Williams is in jail and
that's it. But I think what it's doing is informing
a new generation because there are a lot of people
have never heard of this case because they weren't born

(01:01:46):
when it happened. And so now it serves two purposes
the historical perspective. Two, it also opens up new minds
to investigate the case and then three, it reminds young
people you can't run footloose and fancy for you all
over the city and think someone's not gonna grab you.

(01:02:09):
Although we'll never know why those particular children were taken,
and they were poor, they were black, they were in
a poor part of town, alone, and right now there's
still alone. They are alone, and that no one seems
to bother about saying, I really want to know who

(01:02:33):
killed Luby Cheeter, I really want to know what happened.
Who's been holding something inside for all these years? For
many of these children, The way that they were characterized
suggested to people, there's no reason for you to cry
for yourself because they don't have to mean anything for you,

(01:02:58):
and you don't have to cry for them and what
they lost either, because that wasn't going to amount to
anything much, And that to me is not only tragic
and upsetting, it is simply untrue. It's not true for anybody.

(01:03:21):
It felt heavy, That's how it felt. It felt sad,
and it felt like like there was a very terrible person,
indeed a monster who's just devouring black men. This is
former Atlanta Mayor becausiem Read. His term in office just
ended this year. I was mayor for two thousand nine

(01:03:42):
and twenty days. He remembers the child murders firsthand as
a young boy growing up in Atlanta. There needs to
be an equality to the importance of life. To the
extent that you have really equality of the importance of life,
you would have had more attention faster if it were

(01:04:03):
a white child. Any child is harmed, we also have
the same level of intensity and passion and focus from
day one. There should not be a lag time for
alarm needs to be that a kid got killed, and
we're gonna find who killed a kid, and we're gonna
bring that person to justice. And it needs to be

(01:04:25):
a unified feeling that that is the case. It should
not be community by community. And to the extent that
we do that we are a better city. We have
to maintain that important ethic that our children are hands
off to anybody, and that anybody who attempts to harm
our children will suffer extraordinary, dynamic and extreme consequences with

(01:04:50):
unified support, That's what I hope that the lesson will be.
Thanks for listening to Atlanta Monster. If you've enjoyed it,
I encourage you to check out our first podcast Up
and Vanished, a true crime investigation into the disappearance of

(01:05:13):
Georgia High school teacher and beauty queen Terat Grinstead. Up
and Vanish is available now on Apple Podcasts. Atlanta Monster
is a joint production between How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV.
Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. Audio archives
courtesy of WSB News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown

(01:05:37):
Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries. For the latest updates,
please visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us on
social media. If you have any questions from Mere the team,
please call us at one three eight five six six
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