July 1, 2026 • 26 mins
Etiquette expert Alison Cheperdak shares tips for navigating tricky situations with ease
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a slightly longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
(00:23):
advice they have for the rest of us. So today
I am delighted to welcome Alison Shepherdak to Before Breakfast.
Alison is the founder of Elevate Etiquette. She is the
author of Was It Something I Said?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Alison, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I am so happy to have you as well. Why
don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you. My name is Alison Shepherd Ak and I'm
the founder of Elevate Etiquette, where I write and share
about etiquette for your life, work and love. I also
teach international protocol and executive presence. I'm a former attorney,
former TV news reporter and anchor, and that's some of
(01:07):
the experience that I bring to my work today. Doing
a lot of content creation, speaking and writing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Wonderful and I'm fuar very We're curious how one becomes
known as an elevator as an etiquette expert. I understand
you've had quite a varied career. I mean you were
like at the White House, you also were an ice dancer.
I mean, we've really really been all over the map.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh, thank you. So it started when my husband and
I were engaged to be married, and I realized I
had all of these wedding etiquette questions that I didn't
know the answer to, like does every cousin get a
plus one? Or how do I address this envelope? And
so my mom suggested that I got that I get
my first etiquette BOK and I did, and I got
that book thinking that I would just flip to the
(01:52):
pages that had the answers I was looking for. And
then I found myself reading that first book cover to cover.
And then I was working as an news reporter. I
ended up going to law school and practicing law, and
I kept learning about etiquette on my own time, reading
books about emotional intelligence and protocol and etiquette. And then
(02:14):
I decided to get a certification in British and North
American etiquette to teach it, not necessarily thinking that I
would teach it, but it was something that I thought
would be really enjoyable, and I saw it as like
a non conventional personal growth opportunity for myself. And then
it was while I was in that program that I
was surrounded by other people with these thriving businesses around
(02:36):
the world and protocol and etiquette. So I saw that
as like proof of concept, and then I started posting
in social media and it resonated with an audience pretty
quickly to a point that I have confidence to keep.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Going wonderful wonderful. So I think a lot of people
have some misconceptions though about etiquette. I mean, I think
if you asked the average person and what is etiquette,
they would think it's you know which fork do I use?
And there's some element of that, But I think you
would say that it's more about one's soft skills. Is
(03:11):
that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Absolutely? And there is an element to your point of knowing,
like which is your bread plate and which is your
water and how to navigate a formal dining scenario. But
that's not the point. The point is not to show
off that you know which fork to use in a
given scenario. It's to make it like muscle memory, like
(03:36):
for athletes, like something that you don't need to think
about so that you can be confident and you can
focus on those moments that matter and the connection and
make what might not be you know, a very civilized
moment of eating what was once an animal or you know,
something like that, into a more pleasant, civilized experience. And
yes's definitely most importantly about like kindness and honoring other people.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Well well, yeah, well we definitely want to honor other
people and be kind and part of that is about
how we make conversations. I know in your book, was
it something I said you devote a section to better
small talk? I wonder if you could give our listeners
some advice on how to make better small talk.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Sure. So, with small talk, I recommend whether you're going
to high school reunion or you're just going about your
daily life, I recommend having some topics that you're ready
to talk about with pretty much anybody. The things that
I recommend staying away from are money, sex, politics, religion,
(04:42):
and health status. The sneaky one in there is health status,
because sometimes you can be talking about your diet or
your exercise routine and it can almost come across as
like a religion or like you should be eating or
exercising the way that I do. So that's a sneaky one,
but in general, the the idea here is not to
think about like what's impressive and what's going to make
(05:03):
me sound really smart. It's what's something that I'm genuinely
interested in that I can speak to for a little while.
But I also think that these other people that I'm
speaking with are going to be interested in talking about too,
So that leaves plenty of room for lots of things
like your hobbies, sports, anything you've read, listened to watch
(05:25):
recently that you enjoy, traditions, something you're looking forward to, music, performing, arts, food, restaurants, travel.
The list keeps going and going, so just family friendly
things that you're comfortable talking about are great.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Do you have a favorite question you like to ask
people in small talk situations?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So it depends on the crowd, but I like to
ask people how they've been spending their time lately, or
if I'm at a party, I like to ask people
how they know the host or what brings them there,
or if you're ever feeling really stuck commenting or I
don't like the word stuck, but if you're ever feeling
like you don't know what to say next, commenting on
(06:07):
things that you're experiencing together with other people. So whether
it's like the architecture or the flowers or the food
that are part of an experience, like at a wedding reception,
those are great to talk about too.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And how does one politely exit a conversation. Let's say
you're at a cocktail party or networking event, and obviously
you don't want to monopolize people's time and you want
to talk to lots of people. What's a polite way
to exit a conversation?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So to start, remember that when you go to a
cocktail reception that your responsibility is not to talk to
the first person that you see for the whole rest
of the evening. But for some reason it can feel
rude or wrong to separate yourself. But feel empowered to
(06:54):
know that that's not the goal or that's not the expectation.
Mixing and mingling is actually more polite as a guest,
and so know that and then be really present in
the conversation. So use eye contact, be nodding, talking with
your hands, showing that you're paying attention. There should be
a give and take, so you're asking some questions you're
(07:16):
answering some questions, it doesn't feel like a one sided interview,
and then very clearly wrap it up. Clarity is kind,
ambiguity is not. And you certainly don't want to lie.
So you don't want to say like I'm going to
run to the restroom and I'll be right back. I'm
going to refill my drink. Can they get you anything
when you really have no intention of returning. Instead, say like,
(07:39):
it was so wonderful to see you, I'll look forward
to seeing you. I think we'll see you next week
at the graduation or something like that, or say I
hope you enjoy the rest of this evening. It's great
when you can say I really enjoy talking to your
I'm so glad we could catch up, and then insert
specific facts about what you talked about so, which shows
that you were paying attention. And then if you can,
(08:01):
you can introduce someone to someone else if maybe they
don't know as many people, and that can be a
way to start a new conversation that you can then
step away from. But you don't need to do that.
Those are just some tools that you can use based
on the situation.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Excellent advice. Well, we're going to take a quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Alison Shepherdack. Well,
I am back talking with Alison Shepherdack, who's the author
of Was It Something I Said? A sought after etiquette expert?
(08:36):
It's a little bit of a mouthful to say there.
So let's talk a little bit about business meals. What
tends to go wrong in these situations? And I know
a lot of people feel awkward, especially if they're new
in their careers. They're eating with people maybe from other
organizations or different levels of their companies. What are some
tips for having a good experience here?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I would start with what to order. So if you
are having a business meal, if you're the one who
is putting the bill, like let's say you're having a
client out to lunch, make sure that you're really clear
on the budget that you can allocate for this meal,
and that you're not going to blow the budget if
the client happens to get something that's really expensive. If
(09:22):
you are the person who is trying to decide what
to have on a menu, generally getting something that's mid range,
so not necessarily like the wagou beef and cavia, but
also not a salad as your entree. You know, at
a dinner kind of situation, middle of the road is best.
(09:43):
You also want to be ordering things that are easy
to eat, so French onion soup might be a better
meal for a date night than a job interview. And
things that you don't need to eat with your hands
are better as often in a business meal you might
be shaking hands with folks, So that's something to keep
(10:04):
in mind. And you never want to come across as
though you're taking advantage of this opportunity to indulge on
you know. And this is the case whether it's a
business meal or any meal where you're not paying for
the mail yourself. You want to be really conscious of
that and also be prepared to think to talk about
things beyond work. And generally, if you are the one
(10:27):
who is being hosted, let your host be the first
one to bring up work. Sometimes it doesn't happen, and
you know the dessert is coming and you're wondering when
you're going to talk about the thing that you were
thinking you were going to talk about for work purposes.
But if you are the guest in a business context,
it's nice to start with some of those like family
friendly topics that we were talking about before that are
(10:47):
good small talk topics.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm curious, is there any polite weight to eat a burger?
I mean, I wouldn't order a burger on a job interview,
but is there any way to do it and look dignified?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So you can cut it in half? And the internet
is definitely divided on no pun intended on this, but
if you cut a burger in half and then eat
it like a sandwich, it can be more manageable.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, so things aren't falling out everywhere. You have a
list in your book of things to say when someone
shares good news, some examples of things of ways you
can sort of nicely celebrate with someone, and maybe some
things to avoid. Can you talk about that with us?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yes, thank you. So so often people can be really
excited to share something and then they can feel deflated
by the comments that they receive, even though that's not
the intention. So things that are not the best to
say when someone celebrating something are like what's next. Like
let's say they just publish a book or they just
(11:50):
you know, graduated, and it's like, well, what's next, And
it's like, well, I'm just trying to enjoy this present
moment and this present success before I talk about the
next season, or saying something like better you than me,
or saying like are you sure you're ready for that
or anything that kind of inserts any sort of anxiety
(12:11):
about that next season. So instead saying something like how
are we celebrating? Or I'm so proud of you? Or
you really work so hard for this, or it couldn't
have happened to a better person, or you know, I
can't like all of those kinds of things are much better.
And you also don't want to make someone else's exciting
news about you.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So making sure not to say, oh, that's great that
it happened to you, here's the thing that happened to me.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Right exactly, or like if someone maybe achieved something that
you once achieved, making it all about sharing your story
of your achievement instead of letting them be the star
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And the same idea of focusing on the other person
comes into when you're giving somebody a compliment. I loved
your advice on making sure that the compliment is about
them and it's not about you towards them. I can
can you explain a little bit about what that means.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yes, So instead of making the compliments seem like congratulations
in my opinion, you know you vook fabulous or you
did this so well, saying it more as like an
observation that's about them. So like instead of I think
you look beautiful in the color blue, you look beautiful
(13:29):
in that color is something that's more about the other person.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, So a good way to give a better
compliment right there. You have some tips as well for
being a good host. So let's say I'm having some
people over to my house. What are some things I
can do to extend that idea of etiquette being about
kindness and putting people at ease into welcoming people into
my house.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So first you want to be thinking of the guests.
So what are the questions that the guests will want
to know or how can you make them feel more comfortable?
So let them know like is this going to be
a dinner? Is it going to be or derv Should
they eat in advance? Will it be outside? Should they
plan to wear shoes that are good on the grass,
those kinds of things, And then be thinking about your
(14:17):
guest lists and who you want to be introducing and
if you're going to do a seating arrangement, I really
like a seating arrangement, think about who you'd like to connect,
Like maybe put your more gregarious friend next to your
more shy friend. I really love a table that mixes
people of different ages. Inner generational tables can be wonderful.
(14:37):
They encourage kids to use their good dining etiquette and
try different foods and have conversations that are maybe a
little more sophisticated and they might otherwise and be willing
to accept help. But know that you don't have to
ask your guests for dietary restrictions before they come over.
(14:57):
You don't need to necessarily make something if it's going
to be very complicated. But always let any guest that
has a dietary restriction bring something that would meet their
needs if you know you're serving something that isn't going
to be a good fit for them.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That kind of a thing and for guests, you also
talk about things that seem polite but aren't. I imagine
one of those is showing up too early, right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, yes, showing up early is definitely a big one.
This is not a dentist appointment. You don't want to
be showing up early to a bridal shower, because anyone
who's hosted anything knows that a lot of the magic
happens in that final moment before the doors opened. Another
thing that people think is polite but actually isn't is
when a host says that you can get started or
(15:44):
you can help yourself in the buffet, not getting in
line because they're not starting because you don't want to
be the first one. You actually can do that because
a host, if they've told you to get started, they
mean it, and it probably means like they want everybody
to enjoy the food while it's warm. Put all these
work into getting all these different dishes ready at the
(16:04):
right temperature at the right time, So don't be afraid
to do that. Another one is insisting on helping even
in the host says they're all set. If a host
says they're all set, that's fine. You don't need to
feel guilty about not helping get the appetizers ready. Another
one is cleaning up without asking a host their preferences.
(16:25):
So maybe you have a survival of the Fittest approach
to the dishwasher at home, but your host likes to
handwash some of the pieces from her grandmother or whatever
it is. Just ask before you assume and start cleaning
things or putting things away the way that you might
because it might not be the same.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Always thinking about what the other person would want. Well,
we're going to take one more quick ad break, and
when I come back, I'm going to hear about Allison's
time tracking, because it turns out that Allison is a
fan of time tracking as well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I am back talking with Alison Shepherdack, who is the
author of Was It Something I Said? And is also
an etiquette expert, and as it turns out, is a
long term time tracker. So, Allison, you started tracking your
time about the same time I did, over a decade ago,
is that right?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That's right. So I started. It was the summer before
I went to law school, and it was all inspired
by reading your book when it had first come out.
And I started I think in July or August of
twenty fifteen, and I've never stopped, and it's been so
(17:43):
helpful for me. I really admire your whole mindset and
outlook on time and how people are a good use
of time and how we often I think I had
a I didn't have a very I had a biased
view I think of how I spent my time until
I started to look at it on paper and realize
(18:05):
that as you write about we remember the extremes, but
if we have the data, we can be less biased
and our observations.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I'm curious, are you tracking on paper? I mean, or
what are you using an app? Excel? What are you
what's your time trying to I?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
For a long time, I was not using it on paper,
even though I kind of I do have some paper
that I will use, Like I use paper for all
of my tasks throughout the day that need to get
done and so I manually cross them off. But for
any sort of meeting or you know, I put everything
in there, like getting ready for the day and shower
(18:45):
and like every everything is in there, and I have
that all digital. For me, it's easier because I can
repeat them. I don't have to keep writing it down.
So that's why I like it to be digital.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Excellent. And do you have a morning routine? I understand
that you have a morning routine.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yes, I do. So when I wake up, the first
thing I do is I listen to a podcast or
a book, a like podcast like this one and I
empty the dishwasher because I always run the dishwasher last
thing before I go to bed, So I empty the
dishwasher and then I head to the gym, work out,
come home, and then make breakfast and read the news
(19:26):
as I'm having breakfast and get myself oriented for the day.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
What kind of workout do you like to do? Although
I understand maybe that's not the best question to ask, now, Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
It is perfectly okay. So I like to do solid core.
I usually do solid or three times a week, and
then I work with a personal trainer and do like
heavy lifting three days a week. And then I try
to and I don't do this all in the morning,
but at some point throughout every day, I aim to
get at least ten thousand steps.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
And what does a workday tend to look like for you?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
A workday? For me, not every day is exactly the same.
And I have a very integrated approach to my work.
So I'm not like I only work from nine to five,
and I'll be bothered to get an email past five.
I typically like while I'm reading the news, I'm also,
you know, starting to look at emails in the morning,
(20:23):
and I'm starting to get work done. I do different
types of work on different days, and it's not necessarily
the same every single week. Like I'll look at like,
so I if i have speaking engagement, I know I'll
be doing my hair and makeup for that, and so
I'm also going to shoot a lot of content that
day because I don't want to do my hair and
(20:45):
makeup every day, and so I'm very efficient in that way.
And then I try to do more things like filling
out expense reports and admin type work and more logistical
things all in the same chunk of time. And I
generally plan out my weeks on a combination of Friday
(21:05):
and Saturday, so by Sunday I have the schedule pretty
much in place, so I know, like, these are the
days I'm going to do on camera work, these are
the days I'm going to do writing, these are the
days and you know, going to be traveling or have
less control over some logistics. So I don't know if
that were the perfect answer to your question, but every
(21:26):
day is a little bit different. But I have my
like non negotiables for the day and my non negotiables
for the week, and I find a way to fit
them in.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Do you mean non negotiables, both professionally and personally.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, yeah, so whether it's like so I have no
negotiables professionally, especially on the daily in terms of the
amount of content that I put out. So I'm typically
posting three times to Instagram and then I'm syndicating that
content to other social media platforms. And I have like
a certain number of subtack articles that I'm writing a week,
(22:02):
so I'm not necessarily writing them at the same time
every single week, but I'm definitely getting them done.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Got it, Got it? And since you travel a lot
with a lot of your different engagements where you're teaching
etiquette to different audiences, I'm curious if you have a
travel etiquette faux pas that you see people doing a
lot that drives you crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay, I could go on and on about this, but
one of them is in people. Oh there's so many things,
but when people have been waiting in line, when they're
like not ready when it's their turn in line, when
it's like a surprise that they need their boarding pass
or they need their ID or and then another one
is when as soon as the airplane lands and it's
(22:50):
not your turn, like getting up as if that's going
to make things faster or you know, that's another one.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, it's like some it was rushing from the back
of the plane. It's like, sorry, buddy, it's not gonna happen.
It's not gonna happen. There's like two hundred people in
front of you and it's a small space.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So yeah, time I would say, yeah. Luckily, I don't
think this happens as much because now some airlines have
policies against it. But basically listening to anything without ear
pods or earphones in I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I don't understand it either, But I don't know. Some
people hope springs eternal, perhaps that nobody else can hear it,
or else they're just not thinking about it. So Allison,
I always ask my guests, what is something you have
done recently to take a day from great to awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So recently, and this is not an advertisement at all,
but I started using an app or program called Superhuman
for email and it's been really helpful for me. I
have several email accounts, and I get a lot of
spam emails just by the nature of the work that
(23:59):
I do in the public nature of my email. So
it's been very, very helpful in streamlining that whole process.
It sort of gamifies answer and emails, and there is
some AI that can help you with some like I
have a lot of emails that the exact same response
(24:22):
would be appropriate for, so it makes it easier to
streamline that process.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And does it actually allow you to spend less time
on email? I mean you track your time, so wait
as you know, yeah, okay, all right, like a lot
less time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Significantly less well. And also I had gotten to a
point where my email was feeling like daunting and I
was procrastinating on it and it was becoming overwhelming. So
so it's been really positive in that way.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Excellent, Alison. Where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
You can find me at Elevateetiquette dot com and then
also at Elevate Etiquette on Instagram, TikTok YouTube threads, and
then at the Elevate Edit on substack and then my
book was it something I said? Is available in all
formats wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Well, awesome, Well Allison, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
about this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(25:39):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(26:01):
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a slightly longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
(00:23):
advice they have for the rest of us. So today
I am delighted to welcome Alison Shepherdak to Before Breakfast.
Alison is the founder of Elevate Etiquette. She is the
author of Was It Something I Said?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
So?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Alison, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I am so happy to have you as well. Why
don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you. My name is Alison Shepherd Ak and I'm
the founder of Elevate Etiquette, where I write and share
about etiquette for your life, work and love. I also
teach international protocol and executive presence. I'm a former attorney,
former TV news reporter and anchor, and that's some of
(01:07):
the experience that I bring to my work today. Doing
a lot of content creation, speaking and writing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Wonderful and I'm fuar very We're curious how one becomes
known as an elevator as an etiquette expert. I understand
you've had quite a varied career. I mean you were
like at the White House, you also were an ice dancer.
I mean, we've really really been all over the map.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh, thank you. So it started when my husband and
I were engaged to be married, and I realized I
had all of these wedding etiquette questions that I didn't
know the answer to, like does every cousin get a
plus one? Or how do I address this envelope? And
so my mom suggested that I got that I get
my first etiquette BOK and I did, and I got
that book thinking that I would just flip to the
(01:52):
pages that had the answers I was looking for. And
then I found myself reading that first book cover to cover.
And then I was working as an news reporter. I
ended up going to law school and practicing law, and
I kept learning about etiquette on my own time, reading
books about emotional intelligence and protocol and etiquette. And then
(02:14):
I decided to get a certification in British and North
American etiquette to teach it, not necessarily thinking that I
would teach it, but it was something that I thought
would be really enjoyable, and I saw it as like
a non conventional personal growth opportunity for myself. And then
it was while I was in that program that I
was surrounded by other people with these thriving businesses around
(02:36):
the world and protocol and etiquette. So I saw that
as like proof of concept, and then I started posting
in social media and it resonated with an audience pretty
quickly to a point that I have confidence to keep.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Going wonderful wonderful. So I think a lot of people
have some misconceptions though about etiquette. I mean, I think
if you asked the average person and what is etiquette,
they would think it's you know which fork do I use?
And there's some element of that, But I think you
would say that it's more about one's soft skills. Is
(03:11):
that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Absolutely? And there is an element to your point of knowing,
like which is your bread plate and which is your
water and how to navigate a formal dining scenario. But
that's not the point. The point is not to show
off that you know which fork to use in a
given scenario. It's to make it like muscle memory, like
(03:36):
for athletes, like something that you don't need to think
about so that you can be confident and you can
focus on those moments that matter and the connection and
make what might not be you know, a very civilized
moment of eating what was once an animal or you know,
something like that, into a more pleasant, civilized experience. And
yes's definitely most importantly about like kindness and honoring other people.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Well well, yeah, well we definitely want to honor other
people and be kind and part of that is about
how we make conversations. I know in your book, was
it something I said you devote a section to better
small talk? I wonder if you could give our listeners
some advice on how to make better small talk.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Sure. So, with small talk, I recommend whether you're going
to high school reunion or you're just going about your
daily life, I recommend having some topics that you're ready
to talk about with pretty much anybody. The things that
I recommend staying away from are money, sex, politics, religion,
(04:42):
and health status. The sneaky one in there is health status,
because sometimes you can be talking about your diet or
your exercise routine and it can almost come across as
like a religion or like you should be eating or
exercising the way that I do. So that's a sneaky one,
but in general, the the idea here is not to
think about like what's impressive and what's going to make
(05:03):
me sound really smart. It's what's something that I'm genuinely
interested in that I can speak to for a little while.
But I also think that these other people that I'm
speaking with are going to be interested in talking about too,
So that leaves plenty of room for lots of things
like your hobbies, sports, anything you've read, listened to watch
(05:25):
recently that you enjoy, traditions, something you're looking forward to, music, performing, arts, food, restaurants, travel.
The list keeps going and going, so just family friendly
things that you're comfortable talking about are great.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Do you have a favorite question you like to ask
people in small talk situations?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So it depends on the crowd, but I like to
ask people how they've been spending their time lately, or
if I'm at a party, I like to ask people
how they know the host or what brings them there,
or if you're ever feeling really stuck commenting or I
don't like the word stuck, but if you're ever feeling
like you don't know what to say next, commenting on
(06:07):
things that you're experiencing together with other people. So whether
it's like the architecture or the flowers or the food
that are part of an experience, like at a wedding reception,
those are great to talk about too.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And how does one politely exit a conversation. Let's say
you're at a cocktail party or networking event, and obviously
you don't want to monopolize people's time and you want
to talk to lots of people. What's a polite way
to exit a conversation?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So to start, remember that when you go to a
cocktail reception that your responsibility is not to talk to
the first person that you see for the whole rest
of the evening. But for some reason it can feel
rude or wrong to separate yourself. But feel empowered to
(06:54):
know that that's not the goal or that's not the expectation.
Mixing and mingling is actually more polite as a guest,
and so know that and then be really present in
the conversation. So use eye contact, be nodding, talking with
your hands, showing that you're paying attention. There should be
a give and take, so you're asking some questions you're
(07:16):
answering some questions, it doesn't feel like a one sided interview,
and then very clearly wrap it up. Clarity is kind,
ambiguity is not. And you certainly don't want to lie.
So you don't want to say like I'm going to
run to the restroom and I'll be right back. I'm
going to refill my drink. Can they get you anything
when you really have no intention of returning. Instead, say like,
(07:39):
it was so wonderful to see you, I'll look forward
to seeing you. I think we'll see you next week
at the graduation or something like that, or say I
hope you enjoy the rest of this evening. It's great
when you can say I really enjoy talking to your
I'm so glad we could catch up, and then insert
specific facts about what you talked about so, which shows
that you were paying attention. And then if you can,
(08:01):
you can introduce someone to someone else if maybe they
don't know as many people, and that can be a
way to start a new conversation that you can then
step away from. But you don't need to do that.
Those are just some tools that you can use based
on the situation.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Excellent advice. Well, we're going to take a quick ad
break and then I'll be back with more from Alison Shepherdack. Well,
I am back talking with Alison Shepherdack, who's the author
of Was It Something I Said? A sought after etiquette expert?
(08:36):
It's a little bit of a mouthful to say there.
So let's talk a little bit about business meals. What
tends to go wrong in these situations? And I know
a lot of people feel awkward, especially if they're new
in their careers. They're eating with people maybe from other
organizations or different levels of their companies. What are some
tips for having a good experience here?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I would start with what to order. So if you
are having a business meal, if you're the one who
is putting the bill, like let's say you're having a
client out to lunch, make sure that you're really clear
on the budget that you can allocate for this meal,
and that you're not going to blow the budget if
the client happens to get something that's really expensive. If
(09:22):
you are the person who is trying to decide what
to have on a menu, generally getting something that's mid range,
so not necessarily like the wagou beef and cavia, but
also not a salad as your entree. You know, at
a dinner kind of situation, middle of the road is best.
(09:43):
You also want to be ordering things that are easy
to eat, so French onion soup might be a better
meal for a date night than a job interview. And
things that you don't need to eat with your hands
are better as often in a business meal you might
be shaking hands with folks, So that's something to keep
(10:04):
in mind. And you never want to come across as
though you're taking advantage of this opportunity to indulge on
you know. And this is the case whether it's a
business meal or any meal where you're not paying for
the mail yourself. You want to be really conscious of
that and also be prepared to think to talk about
things beyond work. And generally, if you are the one
(10:27):
who is being hosted, let your host be the first
one to bring up work. Sometimes it doesn't happen, and
you know the dessert is coming and you're wondering when
you're going to talk about the thing that you were
thinking you were going to talk about for work purposes.
But if you are the guest in a business context,
it's nice to start with some of those like family
friendly topics that we were talking about before that are
(10:47):
good small talk topics.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm curious, is there any polite weight to eat a burger?
I mean, I wouldn't order a burger on a job interview,
but is there any way to do it and look dignified?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So you can cut it in half? And the internet
is definitely divided on no pun intended on this, but
if you cut a burger in half and then eat
it like a sandwich, it can be more manageable.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, so things aren't falling out everywhere. You have a
list in your book of things to say when someone
shares good news, some examples of things of ways you
can sort of nicely celebrate with someone, and maybe some
things to avoid. Can you talk about that with us?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yes, thank you. So so often people can be really
excited to share something and then they can feel deflated
by the comments that they receive, even though that's not
the intention. So things that are not the best to
say when someone celebrating something are like what's next. Like
let's say they just publish a book or they just
(11:50):
you know, graduated, and it's like, well, what's next, And
it's like, well, I'm just trying to enjoy this present
moment and this present success before I talk about the
next season, or saying something like better you than me,
or saying like are you sure you're ready for that
or anything that kind of inserts any sort of anxiety
(12:11):
about that next season. So instead saying something like how
are we celebrating? Or I'm so proud of you? Or
you really work so hard for this, or it couldn't
have happened to a better person, or you know, I
can't like all of those kinds of things are much better.
And you also don't want to make someone else's exciting
news about you.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So making sure not to say, oh, that's great that
it happened to you, here's the thing that happened to me.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Right exactly, or like if someone maybe achieved something that
you once achieved, making it all about sharing your story
of your achievement instead of letting them be the star
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And the same idea of focusing on the other person
comes into when you're giving somebody a compliment. I loved
your advice on making sure that the compliment is about
them and it's not about you towards them. I can
can you explain a little bit about what that means.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yes, So instead of making the compliments seem like congratulations
in my opinion, you know you vook fabulous or you
did this so well, saying it more as like an
observation that's about them. So like instead of I think
you look beautiful in the color blue, you look beautiful
(13:29):
in that color is something that's more about the other person.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, So a good way to give a better
compliment right there. You have some tips as well for
being a good host. So let's say I'm having some
people over to my house. What are some things I
can do to extend that idea of etiquette being about
kindness and putting people at ease into welcoming people into
my house.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So first you want to be thinking of the guests.
So what are the questions that the guests will want
to know or how can you make them feel more comfortable?
So let them know like is this going to be
a dinner? Is it going to be or derv Should
they eat in advance? Will it be outside? Should they
plan to wear shoes that are good on the grass,
those kinds of things, And then be thinking about your
(14:17):
guest lists and who you want to be introducing and
if you're going to do a seating arrangement, I really
like a seating arrangement, think about who you'd like to connect,
Like maybe put your more gregarious friend next to your
more shy friend. I really love a table that mixes
people of different ages. Inner generational tables can be wonderful.
(14:37):
They encourage kids to use their good dining etiquette and
try different foods and have conversations that are maybe a
little more sophisticated and they might otherwise and be willing
to accept help. But know that you don't have to
ask your guests for dietary restrictions before they come over.
(14:57):
You don't need to necessarily make something if it's going
to be very complicated. But always let any guest that
has a dietary restriction bring something that would meet their
needs if you know you're serving something that isn't going
to be a good fit for them.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That kind of a thing and for guests, you also
talk about things that seem polite but aren't. I imagine
one of those is showing up too early, right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, yes, showing up early is definitely a big one.
This is not a dentist appointment. You don't want to
be showing up early to a bridal shower, because anyone
who's hosted anything knows that a lot of the magic
happens in that final moment before the doors opened. Another
thing that people think is polite but actually isn't is
when a host says that you can get started or
(15:44):
you can help yourself in the buffet, not getting in
line because they're not starting because you don't want to
be the first one. You actually can do that because
a host, if they've told you to get started, they
mean it, and it probably means like they want everybody
to enjoy the food while it's warm. Put all these
work into getting all these different dishes ready at the
(16:04):
right temperature at the right time, So don't be afraid
to do that. Another one is insisting on helping even
in the host says they're all set. If a host
says they're all set, that's fine. You don't need to
feel guilty about not helping get the appetizers ready. Another
one is cleaning up without asking a host their preferences.
(16:25):
So maybe you have a survival of the Fittest approach
to the dishwasher at home, but your host likes to
handwash some of the pieces from her grandmother or whatever
it is. Just ask before you assume and start cleaning
things or putting things away the way that you might
because it might not be the same.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Always thinking about what the other person would want. Well,
we're going to take one more quick ad break, and
when I come back, I'm going to hear about Allison's
time tracking, because it turns out that Allison is a
fan of time tracking as well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I am back talking with Alison Shepherdack, who is the
author of Was It Something I Said? And is also
an etiquette expert, and as it turns out, is a
long term time tracker. So, Allison, you started tracking your
time about the same time I did, over a decade ago,
is that right?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That's right. So I started. It was the summer before
I went to law school, and it was all inspired
by reading your book when it had first come out.
And I started I think in July or August of
twenty fifteen, and I've never stopped, and it's been so
(17:43):
helpful for me. I really admire your whole mindset and
outlook on time and how people are a good use
of time and how we often I think I had
a I didn't have a very I had a biased
view I think of how I spent my time until
I started to look at it on paper and realize
(18:05):
that as you write about we remember the extremes, but
if we have the data, we can be less biased
and our observations.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I'm curious, are you tracking on paper? I mean, or
what are you using an app? Excel? What are you
what's your time trying to I?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
For a long time, I was not using it on paper,
even though I kind of I do have some paper
that I will use, Like I use paper for all
of my tasks throughout the day that need to get
done and so I manually cross them off. But for
any sort of meeting or you know, I put everything
in there, like getting ready for the day and shower
(18:45):
and like every everything is in there, and I have
that all digital. For me, it's easier because I can
repeat them. I don't have to keep writing it down.
So that's why I like it to be digital.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Excellent. And do you have a morning routine? I understand
that you have a morning routine.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yes, I do. So when I wake up, the first
thing I do is I listen to a podcast or
a book, a like podcast like this one and I
empty the dishwasher because I always run the dishwasher last
thing before I go to bed, So I empty the
dishwasher and then I head to the gym, work out,
come home, and then make breakfast and read the news
(19:26):
as I'm having breakfast and get myself oriented for the day.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
What kind of workout do you like to do? Although
I understand maybe that's not the best question to ask, now, Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
It is perfectly okay. So I like to do solid core.
I usually do solid or three times a week, and
then I work with a personal trainer and do like
heavy lifting three days a week. And then I try
to and I don't do this all in the morning,
but at some point throughout every day, I aim to
get at least ten thousand steps.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
And what does a workday tend to look like for you?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
A workday? For me, not every day is exactly the same.
And I have a very integrated approach to my work.
So I'm not like I only work from nine to five,
and I'll be bothered to get an email past five.
I typically like while I'm reading the news, I'm also,
you know, starting to look at emails in the morning,
(20:23):
and I'm starting to get work done. I do different
types of work on different days, and it's not necessarily
the same every single week. Like I'll look at like,
so I if i have speaking engagement, I know I'll
be doing my hair and makeup for that, and so
I'm also going to shoot a lot of content that
day because I don't want to do my hair and
(20:45):
makeup every day, and so I'm very efficient in that way.
And then I try to do more things like filling
out expense reports and admin type work and more logistical
things all in the same chunk of time. And I
generally plan out my weeks on a combination of Friday
(21:05):
and Saturday, so by Sunday I have the schedule pretty
much in place, so I know, like, these are the
days I'm going to do on camera work, these are
the days I'm going to do writing, these are the
days and you know, going to be traveling or have
less control over some logistics. So I don't know if
that were the perfect answer to your question, but every
(21:26):
day is a little bit different. But I have my
like non negotiables for the day and my non negotiables
for the week, and I find a way to fit
them in.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Do you mean non negotiables, both professionally and personally.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, yeah, so whether it's like so I have no
negotiables professionally, especially on the daily in terms of the
amount of content that I put out. So I'm typically
posting three times to Instagram and then I'm syndicating that
content to other social media platforms. And I have like
a certain number of subtack articles that I'm writing a week,
(22:02):
so I'm not necessarily writing them at the same time
every single week, but I'm definitely getting them done.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Got it, Got it? And since you travel a lot
with a lot of your different engagements where you're teaching
etiquette to different audiences, I'm curious if you have a
travel etiquette faux pas that you see people doing a
lot that drives you crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay, I could go on and on about this, but
one of them is in people. Oh there's so many things,
but when people have been waiting in line, when they're
like not ready when it's their turn in line, when
it's like a surprise that they need their boarding pass
or they need their ID or and then another one
is when as soon as the airplane lands and it's
(22:50):
not your turn, like getting up as if that's going
to make things faster or you know, that's another one.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, it's like some it was rushing from the back
of the plane. It's like, sorry, buddy, it's not gonna happen.
It's not gonna happen. There's like two hundred people in
front of you and it's a small space.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So yeah, time I would say, yeah. Luckily, I don't
think this happens as much because now some airlines have
policies against it. But basically listening to anything without ear
pods or earphones in I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I don't understand it either, But I don't know. Some
people hope springs eternal, perhaps that nobody else can hear it,
or else they're just not thinking about it. So Allison,
I always ask my guests, what is something you have
done recently to take a day from great to awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So recently, and this is not an advertisement at all,
but I started using an app or program called Superhuman
for email and it's been really helpful for me. I
have several email accounts, and I get a lot of
spam emails just by the nature of the work that
(23:59):
I do in the public nature of my email. So
it's been very, very helpful in streamlining that whole process.
It sort of gamifies answer and emails, and there is
some AI that can help you with some like I
have a lot of emails that the exact same response
(24:22):
would be appropriate for, so it makes it easier to
streamline that process.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And does it actually allow you to spend less time
on email? I mean you track your time, so wait
as you know, yeah, okay, all right, like a lot
less time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Significantly less well. And also I had gotten to a
point where my email was feeling like daunting and I
was procrastinating on it and it was becoming overwhelming. So
so it's been really positive in that way.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Excellent, Alison. Where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
You can find me at Elevateetiquette dot com and then
also at Elevate Etiquette on Instagram, TikTok YouTube threads, and
then at the Elevate Edit on substack and then my
book was it something I said? Is available in all
formats wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Well, awesome, Well Allison, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
about this or any other episode, you can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(25:39):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(26:01):
listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
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