Leading wisely, with Caroline Webb

Caroline Webb, leadership coach and author of Leadership Intelligence, shares strategies for smart management

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning.
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Today's episode is going to be a slightly longer one,
part of the series where I interview fascinating people about
how they take their days from great to awesome and
any advice they have for the rest of us. So
today I am delighted to welcome Caroline Webb to Before Breakfast.
Caroline is a leadership expert and the author of the
brand new book, Leadership Intelligence.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Caroline, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, thanks for joining us. Why don't you tell our
listeners a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Well, I'm an executive coach.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
I focus on helping leaders use insights from behavioral and
cognitive science and apply them in very, very practical ways
to improve the way that they lead, work, and live.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
And where are you coming at us from in the world?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm coming from New York, despite my accent.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Wanted people to check, you know. So Caroline is based
in New York.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
And Caroline, you know, there's a lot of management and
leadership books in the world. What are you aiming to
do differently with leadership intelligence?

Speaker 4 (01:15):
Well, I've been working with leaders and managers at all
levels in organizations for over 25 years now.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
And I've always used.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
An approach that's been grounded in cognitive and behavioral science,
because I've seen time and again how when people have
a bit of an understanding of the human mind, it's
a lot easier to make the most of the human
talent around you and in your own talent as well.
So I really wanted to put that intel, if you like,
into the hands of as many leaders as possible. And

(01:45):
that's what leadership intelligence is. It's come out of you know,
several decades of work and seeing what works and what
helps and capturing that in as systemic a way as possible.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
And the book is built around something like 21 scenarios
that a leader will commonly face in his or her career.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I wanted to talk about just a few of.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Those in the time we have today. So First, one
of the challenges that many leaders face is making time
for their top priorities. People who are listening to a
time management show are well.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Aware of this.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
But why is it so difficult for leaders to make
time for their priorities?

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I mean, they're in charge.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
And arguably, you'd say, well, you've got control of your
calendar if you're in charge, right? But the reality is that,
you know, if you're productive, committed, professional, you know, you've
got a lot that's coming your way and it's really
hard to say no. You feel that you want to
do a good job for everybody and you learn those

(02:48):
habits early in your career. And then as you advance,
you've got to change the way you're using your time.
And a lot of the time we don't. We get
stuck in old patterns and we don't rethink, well, hold on,
what is it that I'm uniquely placed to do now
that I am perhaps managing other people formally or informally?
And so that re-evaluation of where do I really add

(03:09):
value and how do I then create a calendar that
matches that and lets go of a bunch of stuff
that perhaps you used to do, but you need to
now re-evaluate. or perhaps even drop completely, that's a rethink.
And as we all know, an identity shift takes some effort,
and it's a deep thing to go through as a person.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, well, especially a lot of people have been promoted
because they are good at fixing things, but then they
may no longer be the person who needs to dive
in and fix the deck, for instance, right before the
meeting's coming up. So you have something called the yes system,
I want to make sure I get this right. The yes, grow,
no method for people who are dealing with this challenge.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Can you describe what that is?

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Thank you. Yes.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
So the yes, grow, no method is, first of all,
getting extremely clear on what you need to say yes to.
And that positive yes is all about knowing where your
value add is. So what is it that you're uniquely
responsible for? Is it lifting yourself up and seeing the
big picture?

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Probably.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Is it engaging and motivating your team?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Probably. There may be some other things that really are
only you. And I find a.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
Lot of people are not super clear in their minds
about what it is that only they can do. And
that's what the first part of the model is about.
It's the positive yes. And then let go and grow
is the second bit, which is, okay, well, what could
someone else do even if not as well as you.
And that's the tricky bit because, yeah, I mean, your

(04:44):
team isn't as experienced as you, so maybe they won't
do it as well as you. But if you don't
let go of the things they could do pretty well,
then you're not going to have time to do the
things that only you can do. And then the rest
of it, I mean, there are things you simply have
to decline.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
You can't delegate.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
You can't let go and grow and use it as
a growth opportunity for your people. That's where the positive
no comes in. And that's a way of saying no
that preserves relationships.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
So what is an example of a positive no? Like
if you were turning me down for something, Caroline, what
might you say?

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, the trick with a positive no is to lead
with what you're saying yes to rather than what you're
saying no to. Because I think, you know, when we
are needing to decline or pull out of something we've
already committed to, of course, we don't feel good about that.
And we're very focused on our angst about letting someone
down or feeling that we're letting someone down. And so

(05:38):
we often lead with, I'm so sorry. And I'm not
saying that sorry is wrong. It's absolutely the right thing
to say, but it should come lower down in the conversation.
If you lead with, first of all, some positive appreciation
of what the other person is asking you, we often
skip that when we're stressed about saying no. Say, that's
a really great project that you're working on, Laura. I

(06:01):
really appreciate that you thought of me for it. It's
a small thing, but you start with that. Then you
go with your yes, which is right now I'm working
on a big new book that's on leadership and it's
a life's work and it's called Leadership Intelligence.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
And it's wonderful, but it's very stretching. There's your no. Finally,
you get to it.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
So I'm really sorry, but I have to decline what
I would otherwise love to do. And then you do
a warm close. And that's also something we sometimes forget
to do, which is I wish you all the very
best for the project. I'm, you know, sure it's going
to be a terrific success. And if you follow that structure,
and I've been using this now, gosh, 15 years, over

(06:42):
a decade, I can vouch for the fact that it
really helps you preserve the relationship. And it also actually
reminds you of what you're saying yes to, which is
no bad thing.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah. And part of saying yes to the things that
you uniquely can do is making sure that your calendar
contains time for this. You have something called a MWM,
meeting with me.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Can you talk about that?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
So the thing is that, you know, we often get
our calendar full up with other people's requests. And you've
got to think about how do you protect the time? Now,
I think everybody knows, well, in principle, I should block
time for my deeper thinking or bigger priorities. But often
it doesn't get protected. So I really encourage people to
take a couple of strategies in blocking a meeting with myself,

(07:30):
which is one, you know, be very opportunistic. If you
see a block opening up in your calendar and you think, oh,
something's been cancelled and I've now got this space, lock
it in and block it for yourself. You can call
it strategy session if you share your calendar with other people.
And then the other thing I suggest is the time-honored

(07:51):
thing of saying, okay, well, maybe there's a slot each
week when I do my big picture review. That often
gets competed out because I think people try and block
a bigger time block than is ever going.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
To be realistic.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
So I encourage people to be super realistic about what
that time is. Maybe it's 30 minutes in a week
and you block that for yourself and you block it
at a time when you're at your cognitive best. So
not you know, not when you're, it depends on your
body clock, but not when you're not feeling so sharp,
but try to put it at a time when you
know you're feeling sharp. And, you know, that works for

(08:24):
me and it works for the people that I work with.
And it's a mix of being opportunistic and realistic that
makes it work.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I think.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Sounds good.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
then I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well,
I am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is an
executive coach and the author of the new book, Leadership Intelligence.
So Caroline, another one of the scenarios that you talk

(08:55):
about is that many leaders need to come up with
good ideas, lots of new ideas, good ideas. What is
the FUSE method, F-U-S-E, that you suggest people follow?

Speaker 4 (09:05):
So the FUSE method is all about getting your mind
into the right place to do the hard and interesting
work of solving a new problem. And when you're trying
to come up with a new idea, you've got to
create conditions for your brain to make new connections. And
that isn't just business as usual. You've got to get
your brain into a slightly different state. So FUSE stands

(09:28):
for focus your mind, unpack your mind, shift your mind,
and enable or equip. So focus your mind is where
you need to quiet the distractions that are inside and
outside your mind.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
So FUSE.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
Distractions that are outside your mind, that is taking out
the clutter, that is taking out the distractions, turning off
your phone, turning off notifications, because as soon as you
have anything that splinters your attention, nothing gets the full
benefit of your intelligence. And then inside your mind, you
want to be really clear. Well, what is it I'm
actually working on? So, so often we sit down, we're

(10:06):
trying to figure something out. And then we say, okay,
what is it that I am trying to do here?
And then 10 minutes have gone by before you actually
really bring your mind to it. So being really clear about, okay,
what is it I'm truly, truly focusing on? I'm really
trying to come up with an idea on this. Unpack
your mind is you've got a lot of stuff swirling around.

(10:26):
write it down so you're not having to try and
keep it all in your mind. Your brain's got a
very small amount of working memory. And then chunk it
into four or five, three or four, not more than that,
chunks of themes or topics that you can group around.
And the beauty of that is that it fits more
what your capacity of your working memory is. When we
take a long list of stuff and then we shrink

(10:48):
it into four or five chunks, four or five headings,
the weird thing is that even though it's the same
amount of information, our brains find it a lot easier
to cope with. And then shift is shift your perspective.
You've got to get into a different place and to
see different ideas and make new connections that link ideas
in different ways. So there are a few different ways

(11:09):
you can do that. One thing I like is the
two bite rule where you don't try and solve a
problem in one go, but you deliberately plan a break
in the middle. So you go away and then you
come back. We all know you often see things differently
when you do that. And that's a shift of perspective
that comes from stepping away and stepping back. And there
are several other ideas in the book about how to

(11:29):
do that. And then finally, equip or enable your mind
to take the next steps. That's getting super practical on
the next thing you do. And that's in there because
if you don't, sometimes you come back to your thinking session.
You think, oh, what was it? What was it again
that I was supposed to do? Make it be generous

(11:50):
and kind to your future self and actually be really
clear what is the exact next step that I'm taking
from this.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, and next steps are often motivating. I mean, as
we take a small step, we want to keep going
on it. But for sure, a good idea that is
not put into practice is not really a good idea
when it comes.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Down to it.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Another scenario, Caroline, that you have in the book is
that sometimes leaders need to help a colleague who is struggling.
Not necessarily like performance issues. I mean, hopefully there's good
feedback about, you know, this is what I wanted you
to do. This is how it went, that there's regular
feedback going on with there. But, you know, somebody who's
a good performer who seems to be struggling in a
certain season here. You mentioned you had a scenario like

(12:34):
this a few years ago.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
I really care about equipping managers and leaders to handle
a situation where someone on their team is struggling. because
I think we see a lot of it and I
have been on the other side of it. I had
a sort of slow moving health crash early in my
years as a management consultant and I was working very hard.
So it definitely wasn't a question of loving the job.

(13:01):
I really did love the job, but I had this
health crash. I kept on trying to work through it.
It was really tough. And what happened in the end
was I had a great boss who took me aside
and said, you know, what's going on? And He called
it out. So he had obviously checked his assumptions about
what was going on. He wasn't assuming that I was

(13:21):
looking tired because I wasn't committed. So he checked his
assumptions beforehand. Then he asked what's going on.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
That's the A.

Speaker 4 (13:29):
Again, rather than jumping to any conclusions. And he listened
really closely. And that's the lesson.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
That's the L.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
And he really paid close attention to what I was
saying about the mix of physical health, but also some
complexities on the family side. And then he helped me
make it manageable, which is the M. That was actually
in the end taking some time off and regrouping and
eventually being signed off to come back to work. And

(13:58):
the reason why I do C-A-L, check, ask, listen, before
make it management, is we so often want to go
in and solve the problem. If we're good people, we
want to help people to get back on track. We've
really got to pause and say, okay, let me not
make any assumptions. This is the same as the last
time someone fell off their perch in my team. And

(14:20):
how do I really make them feel heard and make
sure I'm solving the right problem? So the C-A-L is
designed to slow you down and get yourself into a
curious mindset to make sure that you're making the right
thing manageable for your colleague.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
All right, so the acronym is CALM. We're checking our assumptions,
we're asking questions and listening and then making it manageable
for them. So with the questions, though, I mean, obviously
many people are a little bit nervous and for obvious
and legal reasons of about, you know, asking too much
about what is going on with an employee if there's
trouble outside of work. Are there some sensitive ways to

(14:53):
ask this so that the person feels that they can
volunteer what they need to or want to, but not
more than they need to or want to?

Speaker 4 (14:59):
Yeah, I think, you know, the more that you can
stick to what I call a factual approach, the safer
the conversation is. In fact, I've never really seen it
go off the rails. if you use this approach. So
you first of all, name very factually what you've noticed.
And you call it out, you say, I noticed that

(15:21):
you were late into the office three times last week,
when normally before that you've been on time. And then ask,
tell me what's going on and not jumping to assumptions, right?
So it's so easy to say, is everything, you know,
are you sick? Or is something going on at home?

(15:41):
That's what you need to pause and hold yourself back from.
Because it's, you don't want to kind of drive the
conversation in one direction, if it's not actually the situation,
and you don't want to make any assumptions, you want
to create the space. So that factual observation, and then
the tell me more, what's going on, allows them to
choose how much to share. And I think it's Even

(16:02):
better if you can set a clear intention at the
top of the conversation and wrap it in, I care
about you and I care about helping you do your
best work and be your best self, whatever language feels
natural for you. And if you label it up front
as that's the intention of the conversation, it's a lot
easier for people to feel like, oh, this.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Isn't a gotcha.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
This isn't necessarily a critical conversation. This is actually genuinely
coming from a place of curiosity. So I think that's
important too.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
And the problem making it manageable, you want to take
the situation that may be feeling overwhelming for your employee
and turn it into something that's more manageable.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Obviously, you took a short leave of absence.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Are there other ideas that are on the table for
what managers could use?

Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
And I tell the story of a leader who's incredibly
thoughtful and creative about that in the book. I think,
you know, often there can be ways to reallocate work
around the team. You know, I think it's not that
you want to, you know, disenfranchise someone who's struggling completely,
but there may be creative ways to think about, well,
you know, perhaps they could learn the yes, grow, no

(17:08):
model and think about how to delegate more of their work.
Maybe you can coach them on something that is going
on in their life. And I think, you know, that's
a role that leaders can and should play. Even if
it's something that's going on in someone's personal life, you
can help them think about, okay, what's going on?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Tell me more about what's going on. OK, how are
you thinking about that?

Speaker 4 (17:31):
And, you know, is there anything that I can do
to help? It's such a small thing when you say
it like that. But it means the world to people
if they're going through a tough time to know that
they're not alone and that their boss cares.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
We're going to take one more quick ad break and
I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well, I
am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is a leadership
expert and executive coach, author of the brand new book,
Leadership Intelligence. So Caroline, I want to pivot to your schedule.

(18:06):
I often ask people if they have a morning routine,
but I understand that you are something of a night owl,
late night kind of person.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
How does that play out in terms of your schedule?

Speaker 3 (18:14):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
Well, it means that, you know, my whole schedule is
kind of shifted a couple of hours later than a
lot of people. You know, there's a lot of talk
of getting up at 4 a.m., My body naturally wants
to go to sleep at 4 a.m. So that's quite
extremely different. It's like I'm living in a different time zone.
And over the years, of course, I can't go to

(18:35):
bed at 4 a.m. much as I would love to.
My mother was the same, by the way. So there's
a genetic component here. But I've worked out how to
be really clear about my boundaries. I generally have a
start to the day that involves me trying to get
a walk in so that I'm getting some sunlight and

(18:56):
that helps my circadian rhythms lock in. I definitely check
my messages. That's entirely normal. But the key thing is
I don't really schedule anything really key.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
That really matters.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
In general, if I can avoid it, you can see
all the caveats. If possible, I schedule from 11 a.m.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Onwards.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
But I'll be happily doing recordings and meetings and coaching
clients at 8pm. So it's just a different makeup. And
the trick I've found is to be just very clear
and transparent with people about that. And I think it
would be great if there could be more normalization around that,

(19:38):
because 20 to 25% of the population is a night
owl who's basically needed to fit in with the norms
that the rest of the population has. And I'd love
to see a broader conversation about being a night owl
in an early world.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, well, I think there's certainly so there are probably
people who would prefer to have a chat at, you know,
8 p.m.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Versus, you know, 7 a.m. in the morning.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Not all things that need to happen outside the workday
need to happen before the workday.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
They can also happen after the workday.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
And so do you tend to stay up doing your
creative work later into the evening?

Speaker 4 (20:09):
Well, I definitely find that, you know, the times that
people say, oh, you know, you're not at your best.
You shouldn't do anything too consequential then. You know, is
the afternoon and early evening? Yeah, that's when I'm flying.
And so I typically schedule my most complex work at
the times when other people might say, OK, I'm done.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
And do you feel like you're getting a second wind
or is it just sort of like a quick, you know,
moving up during the day?

Speaker 1 (20:37):
I'm very curious. The energy patterns here.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, it is basically a straight line up. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
It's, yeah, it's quite unusual. I mean, Dan Pink, he
wrote the book when he and I had a conversation
about chronotypes, as they're known, and body clocks. And he said,
you've got the chronotype of a teenage boy.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
I said, yes, I know.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
But, you know, I think once you know your chronotype,
yourself and your when you're at your cognitive peak, you
can then schedule around it. So, you know, I think
you can't always make it fit. I mean, you know,
I've just said yes to a meeting, presenting something at
740 in the morning for which I'll need to get

(21:24):
up very early, drink quite a bit of coffee, look
at the, look at the sky, uh, so that I
can be ready for it. Um, but it's, uh, you know,
I think once you know that it makes that much
difference to your performance, it's really worth the, the small
amount of effort to be transparent about it.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Well, I always ask my guests, what is something you
have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?

Speaker 4 (21:49):
Well, uh, you know, when you're launching a book, it's
a busy time. Um, But I'm really trying to make
time for social connections for my friends because all the
research is out there on just how much of a
boost it gives us both in the short term and
the long term. And last Wednesday, I was excited to

(22:11):
hear that a friend of mine was coming in from
Boston to visit New York. I looked at my calendar
and I thought, well, how can I possibly make this work?
How can I see her? And I was creative about it.
I figured out that I could propose a walk in
Central Park with her as I went from A to B,

(22:31):
from a meeting on the west side to a meeting
on the east side.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
And it worked out perfectly.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
And I got this lovely boost in the middle of
a busy day by seeing my friend Nila. And I
was pretty pleased to have managed to pull that off.
And I think in general, I just try to make
sure that I'm making time for good friends. I'm doing
the same tomorrow. And, you know, I know I'm going
to feel great after it.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Awesome after it.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, awesome after it.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
Well, I love it.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
It's really two things.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
It was seeing your friend, you know, also putting your
friend into a busy schedule and then probably walking between
meetings through Central Park.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I mean, that's like awesome in and of itself.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
I try to try to schedule things so that I
will walk. If it's If it's 40 minutes or less
to walk, I will almost always try and do it
as a walk. You know, it perhaps gets a little
dicier if it's longer than that, but I've been known
to do a walk, you know, for 45 minutes. And

(23:29):
it just does make a lot of difference when you
get more steps in, but it also just puts you
a little bit in contact with nature and we know
how that lifts our spirits.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Do you have any sort of rules? Like if it's
over 90% humidity, forget it.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
That is a good question.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
So I am, you know, I grew up in the
UK where.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Hot weather was a bit exotic.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
So I've got a bit more tolerance for hot, sticky
weather than I think, you know, some people here do.
But yeah, I've actually, I'm definitely getting better at saying, oh, no,
that's a terrible idea. And what I will do then
is there's a mall, an air conditioned mall, not far
from where I live. And I'll suggest that we go and,

(24:11):
you know, maybe walk around that and look at what's
in the mall. And we've got the air conditioning. We
still get our steps in. That's a really good backup
plan I found.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
I love it. I love it. Well, Caroline, what are
you looking forward to right now?

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Well, I'm looking forward to the book launch. I'm looking
forward to getting this sort of life's work out into
the world. And that's, you know, that's just going to
be such a wonderful experience. You know, I had that
experience with how to have a good day in my
last book and just that feeling of seeing people actually
engaging with the material and the ideas and feeling, feeling useful.

(24:47):
I mean, all I care about in life is really
feeling useful and, uh, I'm looking forward to amping up
that sense of feeling useful.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
And where can people find you?

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Uh, my website is carolineweb.co. So that's Caroline web, web
with two B's and it's.co not.com. And you can find
information about my books, including the big new one, Leadership Intelligence.
You can sign up for a newsletter. You can get
free resources. So I'd love to see people there if
they are interested in following up.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Sounds good.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Well, Caroline, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at laura at lauravandercam.com. In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most... Thanks for.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

(26:04):
listen to your favorite shows.