April 1, 2026 • 26 mins
User research expert and author of Listen Like You Mean It Ximena Vengoechea shares tips for helping conversations go deeper
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a slightly longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today,
(00:25):
I'm delighted to welcome him in a Vingoica to Before Breakfast.
She is the author of several books, including Listen Like
You Mean It, Rest Easy, and The Life Audit, a
step by stead guide to discovering your goals and building
the life you want. So him in and welcome to
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, so excited to have you on. Why don't you
tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, so, I'm a user researcher, which we can get
into a little bit, but it informs a lot of
the writing that I do. So I've worked at several
big tech companies, and I write and I illustrate rate
have several nonfiction books, and I'm actually also working on
some novels.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Oh wonderful. I'm so excited about that and can't wait
to read it, so tell us, yeah about user experience
and what this means for people.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, so a user researcher, I like to think of
it as one of the more people friendly roles in tech.
So essentially where they're to translate what do people really need?
What are users really need from the products that we're building,
and we're kind of a voice for the people. So
rather than have someone say like, hey, I have this
great design idea, let's just build it, the user researcher
(01:34):
is really the intermediary to say, like, let's actually go
talk to some people, see what they need, see how
this fits into their world or doesn't make sure it's usable,
beautifully designed, but also easy to use and actually functional.
So it involves a lot of surveys but also one
on one interviews, moderating group workshops, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, because it feels like a lot of tech may
have a great thing it's supposed to do, but it's
very hard for the user to understand it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I mean do you counter that a lot?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah? I mean basically the goal is to not have
you be on a page and be confused or get stuck,
you know, not be able to find a button, you know,
at a very micro level, and then I think at
the macro level, it's really saying, you know, this is
something that should bring something to your life, something positive,
whether that's you know, purely functional or joyful and not
(02:26):
be you know, a pet project. Let's say that someone
just got really excited about but really just has no
purpose in somebody's life.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So, as part of doing this user research, you were
listening to a lot of people, which then you pivoted
to writing about that and becoming an expert on listening.
Can you tell us a little bit about your book
on listening?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, you know, it was interesting because as a user researcher,
you're spending a lot of time interviewing people, having these
really deep conversations in a very short amount of time.
I mean these these could be really personal conversations about
things like finances, and you only get forty five minutes,
maybe sixty minutes to talk to someone, and so you
(03:09):
really have to build the ability to go very deep
very quickly. And that's not easy. You're you know, you're
talking to a stranger, somebody who's never met you before,
who maybe doesn't really understand whether even showing up to
this company and you know, showing up to a lab
it can be intimidating, and so you have to use
a lot of tools and techniques to instantly build rapport
(03:32):
to be able to get to those deeper questions without
it feeling like an interrogation or invasive. And the more
time I spent in the lab and was seeing, you know,
the benefits of using these techniques in that setting, and
then I could kind of easily contrast that with, oh, wait,
I'm in this meeting with my peers and everybody's talking
(03:52):
past each other, or you know, I'm having an everyday
conversation with my husband and we're also just like totally
on different wavelengths. You know, it seemed really obvious to
me that those techniques could be pourted over to the
real world, not just to you know, make conversations run
more smoothly, but ultimately to build better relationships, because I
(04:15):
think that's what it's really about. When you're able to
be a good listener, it opens so much up between
you and that other person. So it's really about leveraging
that to build better and deeper connections.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Absolutely, and I know that's something a lot of people want,
but someone listening to this might be like, well, okay,
I listen all the time. What am I doing wrong?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Like?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What am I doing wrong when I'm listening? That is
precluding these deeper connections.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, you know, I think most of us when we listen,
fall into what I would call service listening. So we're
hearing enough of what's being said to not in smile,
you know, maybe there's a follow up question or two.
You know, it's not that we're totally absent of any
listening skills. Right, It's like, you get through your day,
you're not getting fired, you're being polite to the cash whatever, Right, Like,
(05:01):
all of those things are true, but they're not exactly
going very deep those conversations. And so what I'm proposing
is to shift more to what I call empathetic listening,
which is really about getting to a point of connection
with someone else where you understand where the other person
is coming from. And I think it's safe to say
that a lot of times in our everyday conversations, we're
(05:22):
not in that mode. We're not registering quite that deep. Well,
what are some techniques we can use? Like, if somebody's
listening to this and wants to try something today, what
could they do. I think the first thing is to
really go into it with what I call a listening mindset,
and there's three components to that. So the first is humility,
and this is maybe the hardest one, but it's really
coming in with a spirit of being open to being wrong,
(05:47):
kind of setting your own opinion aside, not just your opinion,
also any preconceived notions, maybe even expertise that you have.
I think that can actually be really quite difficult when
you feel like you know a lot about a subject
or area, or have really strong opinions, but just setting
that aside and saying, Okay, actually my purpose here right
now is not to teach. It's too more take a
(06:07):
student role and learn from this other person. So humility
really coming in with that mindset is kind of the
first piece. And then you also want to bring in
a spirit of curiosity. This I think is often missing
from our everyday conversations. Maybe there's a topic that you
just you really don't find interesting. For me a lot
of times, it's sports, right, It's just not something that
(06:29):
makes my heart sing. So I have to work harder
when I'm in conversation with someone and they are a
sports fan. Let's say and it would be easy for
me to say, all right, they're talking about the super Bowl.
I don't really care about that, Like I'm going to
tune out. I have to find a thread that I
can tag and get curious about. Okay, why is this
person so interested in this topic? Why are they such
(06:51):
a sports fan? Did they play sports as a kid?
Were their parents really into sports? What does it mean
that our culture is really into you know, the super Bowl?
Like what can I learn from this? Right? Like, there's
always something that I can get curious about. For me,
for example, my in is while I'm not interested in
sports per se, I do find the drama around you know,
(07:14):
coaching styles and you know how people are drafted and
why and all of that, Like I think that's actually
quite interesting. So that's kind of my in. But it's
figuring out, like what is your in into this topic
that you can stay present and stay engaged instead of
just saying, you know what that is not for me,
I'm going to tune out. And then the third piece
I think is empathy, and that's really going deeper of
(07:35):
you know, why is this person bringing this to me?
What is it that they're trying to get out of
this conversation, What is it that they experience on a
human level, you know, is their grief tied to this?
Is their joy tied to this? And it's not to
say that we have to have experienced the same thing.
You know, if someone is sharing a story about a
(07:58):
layoff and you've never experienced that, that's okay, But maybe
you can tap into the feeling behind that, which is,
you know, somebody is grieving this loss in their life
and it was unexpected and surprising, and that must be
really difficult. And have you ever had, you know, some
kind of grief that you can tap into there. So
I think those three components, when you're able to bring
(08:20):
them all to the four, really sent you up for
having a very different kind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So I want to ask about that last part though.
I mean, empathy is for sure so important and we're
trying to but by hooking that to something that I
have maybe experienced in my life, I think we might
accidentally fall into the trap of then being like, oh
me too, Yeah you got laid off, you know, I
(08:46):
some other random thing that had been bad to me.
And I feel like that's probably not the best style
of listening.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
No, I think you're right. I think there's a difference though,
between tapping into that feeling and sitting with it and
bearing witness to the other person experiencing that and doing
what you're saying, which is I would call that identifying
where you go, oh, yeah, yeah, like this is exactly
like what I experienced, and then maybe you share about
that and suddenly you're talking about your experience and the
other person might go, wait a minute, like how did
(09:14):
we get here? Like now they're talking about the loss
of their dog that has nothing to do with, you know,
the way I feel. So I do think it's important to,
you know, try and get to that feeling, but then
to also clarify, like what is actually needed in this conversation.
It might be obvious, it might not be. You know this.
This instinct to identify is one of what I call
(09:39):
a default listening mode. We all have them. It's like
a way of showing up in conversation. So some people
are instant identifiers. Other people are instant problem solvers. They
hear everything and they're like, ah, that's a problem to
be solved, like let me come up with solutions, let
me brainstorm with this person. Or they're a validator where
they just want to cheerlead, you know, and say like, yeah,
you were right in that argument, like that person totally
(10:00):
didn't get it. These are all ways of showing up
in conversation. There's nothing wrong with them, but you do
have to take a step back when you're in a
conversation and ask yourself, Okay, my instinct is to identify,
to offer my my similar experience or to problem solve,
to offer solution. Is that actually what this person needs
(10:22):
or is it something else? And I think that is
kind of how you manage some of some of that.
It's sort of being aware of what that instinctive pull
is to respond and then maybe a little bit of
a gut check or even asking like hey, like you know,
my instinct would be to maybe brainstorm with you, is
that what you're looking for and get that clarity.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, to ask, I mean sometimes you can in fact,
just to ask exactly. Well, we're going to take a
quick ad break and then we'll be back with more
tips on better listening. Well, I am back talking with
him and a vinga Cha. She is the author of
several books, including Listen Like You Mean It, Rest Easy,
(11:04):
and The Life Audit One of the techniques you talk
about in Listen like you mean it is the power
of silence. And I know you use this to good
effect in your user research interviews, trying to get people
to talk about what they were experiencing. How can we
sort of build this into everyday life.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that silence allows
is for processing. It's for thinking through, and it's giving
space for another person to vocalize, to verbalize that. So
often our very human instinct is if a conversation goes quiet,
we want to rush in and fill the void because
(11:44):
it's uncomfortable. You maybe have like a little bit of
an inner monologue of oh God, did I say something
to offend this person? Or have I bored them? Or geez,
like I need to I need to come up with
something else to say, Like I need to be spontaneous
and fun. And you know, we can get in our
own head about these kinds of things. But sometimes silence
is just a way for the other person to finish
(12:07):
the thought, you know, to think it through a little
bit more, or to open up. Maybe they're building up
towards sharing something vulnerable that you know it was difficult
to say immediately, right so we want to give the
conversation breathing room. We want to give that space, and
that can be very hard for people. It's very hard
(12:28):
for me. So, like one of the things that you
can do is to just you know, if you feel
that silent moment encroaching and you're starting to get uncomfortable,
try counting to ten, you know, just see what will happen.
Maybe nothing happens, that's okay too. But usually when you
do give people a little bit of space, they'll they'll
(12:49):
bring something to the conversation that was maybe unexpected that
you didn't really know. Oh, we're going to go there, Okay, great.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, what are some ways to show that we're engaged
in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, part of it
is physical. It's like, you know, eye contact can be
very important, you know, nodding your head along, some of
these natural cues that I think most of us are
probably doing and you don't have to think too much about.
But you know, if you're someone who generally avoids eye contact,
maybe that's something that you want to start incorporating into
(13:23):
your conversation. But some of these are also just verbal cues.
So it's asking good follow up questions. It's kind of
nudging the conversation along. It's demonstrating an interest by really
engaging with what they're saying. And people can tell when
you know you're asking a question for the sake of
it versus you're actually invested, because the types of questions
(13:43):
that you're more likely to ask are going to be
more specific, They're going to be a little bit deeper
rather than surface level. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I mean, although with that, are there any good sort
of deepening questions that can kind of nudge people to
keep going and show that you're engaged.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, I mean I like to think of you know,
questions come in different categories. Some questions are going to
close a conversation and some questions are going to open
them up. So you want to try and avoid simply
close ended questions, So questions that are going to result
in a yes or no answer. So questions that start
with do are that kind of thing you want to
(14:20):
go for more open ended what how? Why is tricky
because why can sound like you're interrogating someone, so that
one is maybe less useful, But so thinking about how
you're framing questions so less you know, are you nervous
about that work presentation, and more, hey, how do you
feel about that presentation coming up? So you're not you know,
(14:43):
projecting onto that person and how they might be experiencing something.
So I think those questions can be useful. And then
the last thing I'll say is just sometimes just when
you can sense that somebody also, you know, maybe there's
more to say and you're kind of tiptoeing around it,
just repeating what they've said and giving some space for
(15:04):
it or slightly paraphrasing it. It can be really simple like, oh,
you know, you mentioned feeling upset, and you can pause,
you know, and see what they say. Or you can
add a little nudge like you're feeling upset because and
pause and again like people will kind of fill in
(15:25):
the blanks. So those are some of the ways that
you can deep in and show that engagement at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Excellent tips. Well, I want to pivot to your more
recent book because I definitely want listeners to check that
out as well. The life Audit. What on Earth is
a life audit?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Great question? Yes, So the life audit is an exercise
in self reflection and really getting to know yourself in
order to essentially architect the life that you want. So
it's a way of uncovering your deepest wishes, desires, goals,
and also your core values and essentially looking and seeing,
like do my core values align with the life that
(16:03):
I want to live? Am I pursuing the goals, these wishes,
these desires. Have I set my life up in a
way that I can see these things through? And I
think it's it's useful for anyone who you know, wants
to take a step back and sort of reflect on
where they are in their journey and where they want
(16:23):
to go. And it's particularly useful if you're at some
kind of crossroads, like maybe you've just graduated college, maybe
you've just changed jobs, or you're thinking about changing careers.
Maybe you've just had a child and that's kind of
upended your world. So I think there are lots of
moments where this can be useful, and it could also
(16:44):
just be as simple as you know, an annual sort
of like the new Year, you want to reflect and
see like what do I want to add of this
year of my life.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
One of the things you suggest people do is come
up with a hundred wishes that you're putting on post
it notes, and you give people very limited time to
come up with these as well. I've often suggested listeners
do what we call it a list of one hundred
dreams around here, you know, one hundred things you'd like
to spend more time doing in your life, or goals
that will take more time that you want to do.
(17:13):
But I've never actually forced anyone to do it in
an hour, so I'm curious about the time limit and
how you came up with that.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, you know, I think it's useful to have constraints.
In the same way that it's useful to say, hey,
aim for a hundred I think it's useful to try
and do it in an hour. Obviously, this is your life, audit.
If you want to take more time, go ahead and
take more time. You know no one's gonna check up
on you. But I think that that constraint, it's really
about focusing that time because many of us don't make
(17:44):
the time to ask these big questions of ourselves. So honestly,
even an hour kind of feels luxurious if you think
about it that way, right, But that our time frame
and using those post its, those are deliberate constraints. Like
I suggest sticky notes and not you know, an Excel spreadsheet,
because then you've got a device, and then you've got notifications.
(18:06):
And I suggest a sticky note with a sharpie because
it forces you to write less. Right, you cannot write
that much when you're using a sharpie on a three
by three sticky notes. It forces you to kind of
get to the heart of that wish or desire. So
all of those constraints are really intentional to help you
uncover these these deeper desires with the tools that you
(18:29):
already have.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And do you have a good process for once people
sort of brainstorm a lot of things that they would
like to do for giving themselves any sort of timeline
for achieving these.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, So the first part of the Life Audit is
really about uncovering those goals and then sort of doing
an affinity mapping where you're grouping things into themes and
starting to see patterns and saying, wow, I have a
lot of goals or wishes around health or a lot
around career, community, whatever it may be. And then the
second part of the book does focus on Okay, you've
(19:01):
got all of these wishes, now how do I prioritize them?
And what does that look like. And I always like
to remind people that, you know, whatever plan you come
up with, this is over the course of your life,
right because it can feel overwhelming to look at everything
and go, oh my god, there's so much that I
want to do. Where do I begin and how quickly
can I do these things? But it is a pretty long,
(19:24):
you know, timeframe we're talking about. So usually what I
suggest is that people start to focus on let's say,
three to five things they want to get done in
the near term, you know, and you can separate it
out from these are let's say core values. These are
things that I want to carry with me every day,
So things like I really want to be patient or generous,
(19:45):
those are things that are going to live with you
and you want to carry that every day. But then
there are also the things that maybe you want to
get done in the next six months, six to twelve months,
let's say. And then there are things like you know,
live abroad that maybe that's something that you'll do in retirement.
Who knows, right, So at least that initial framing of
is it every day, is it six to twelve months out,
(20:07):
is it much further out? And then from there, once
you pick those, let's say three to five that you
want to work on. Then you start breaking everything down
into even smaller chunks. Okay, you want to live abroad
at some point, great, what do you have to do?
Like do you have to learn a language? Do you
want to sign up for language classes? Do you want
to visit that place? Plan a visit first? And so
(20:29):
then you start really getting into the nitty gritty. So
it's kind of like I'm motioning, nobody can see, but
it's kind of like a funnel right where you're starting
pretty broad and getting more and more specific because that's
what makes it actionable.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeap, big goals down to doable steps exactly. Well, we're
going to take one more quick ad break and then
we'll be back with a little bit more about him
INA's productivity routines. Well, I am back talking with him
and Vingoateea about her books on listening, her book on
(21:02):
the Life Audit. I want to talk about your routines.
I've always love to hear about what makes people more productive.
Do you have any particular routines that make you more productive?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah? So I always think about it as like every
person has their personal productivity zone, which is like a
time of day or a place, an environment, something that
makes you more productive. And for me, I've always been
more productive in the morning, and so I design my
day around that, and I'm very careful about what I
take on in the morning, so I don't do any
(21:32):
any admin I don't do anything that's sort of like
just responsive in the mornings. The mornings I really reserve
for strategic work, creative work, that sort of deep thinking
happens in the morning. And then the afternoons, when I
know that my body is more tired out and then
I'm not as sharp, that's when I'm really focusing on
some of those smaller tasks. So that's one of the
(21:53):
things that I do. And then another thing that I
do is I use a lot of analog tools, So
I have a weekly planner, I have a calendar, I
have a daily to do list, and all of that
is just physical pen and paper where I can chart out, Okay,
this is what I think I'm doing for the week,
and then every day, hour by hour, this is what
I'm going to try and get done. Especially as someone
(22:16):
who you know doesn't have a boss to report to
and is in charge of their own deadlines, it's helpful
to see that kind of laid out like that, where
you can be a little more realistic about how you're
going to spend each day without all the device distractions.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And is this planning process something you kind of do
on a weekly basis looking to the next week or
or is it more every day you're looking to the
next day or to a larger frame of time. I'm
curious to the cadence of it.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It's a little bit of boath. So you know, with
a book project, I have targets that I'm trying to meet,
deadlines that I'm trying to meet, but as you know,
you know, when you're working on a project of that size,
the deadlines don't always work. But I have so I
have things that I'm striving toward and then kind of
working backwards. But it can be as simple as you know,
(23:05):
I'm working on a novel right now, and so for
this week, it was sort of like, Okay, the goal
is to try and revise the first part of the novel.
That's the goal for the week, and then daily I'm
kind of tracking progress. I'm going, okay, now you're working
on chapters like seven through nine today, Like that's the
goal and then hourly it's sort of like, Okay, I
(23:26):
think chapter seven is going to take three hours, Like,
let's see how that goes. So it's really kind of
again funneling down from there.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, great, great ideas. What's something you have done recently
to take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah? I love this question because I think, you know,
when I was thinking of examples, really they all came
down to introducing more entropy into my day and taking
more breaks. So, you know, especially having written a book
on rest, I thought about this a lot of you know,
we're not machines, even though we sometimes feel like we
ought to be, and constantly producing. For me at least,
(24:04):
I think for many of us, taking breaks is just
it's like this huge mental unlock. It's a big reset.
And the most exciting breaks for me are the ones
that are just like a little bit different, things that
don't quote unquote book productive. So having coffee with a
friend who is it's totally unrelated to anything that I'm
(24:24):
working on, I will leave that feeling so invigorated and
so energized, even if I didn't you know, talk at
all about work or setting up you know, a writing
sort of like mini retreat with someone, I'm going to
get less work done than if I were to do
it at home alone. But just that little bit of entropy,
(24:46):
that spark that helps kind of reset things, or even
just you know, taking an extra long walk with my
dog because it's sunny out. All of those things that
again on paper, you're like, wow, I just I kind
of ninety minutes of the day there, like probably shouldn't
have done that I find are actually really helpful. That's
slowing down the act of slowing down. It just does
(25:09):
something where it's this really important creative mental reset, and
I often find that that is when I'm solving problems.
You know, it's like stepping away is really the biggest
thing that I can do.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, we love little adventures around here. It's a good
way to make a schedule a lot more fun. So
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, so I have a website Humana Vanguitrea dot com
and a newsletter where I talk a lot about these
kinds of topics and that's Jimena dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Awesome, Oh, Himana, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this, or any other episode. You can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in
the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's
to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening
(26:03):
to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(26:26):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a slightly longer one part
of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
they take their days from great to awesome and any
advice they have for the rest of us. So today,
(00:25):
I'm delighted to welcome him in a Vingoica to Before Breakfast.
She is the author of several books, including Listen Like
You Mean It, Rest Easy, and The Life Audit, a
step by stead guide to discovering your goals and building
the life you want. So him in and welcome to
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, so excited to have you on. Why don't you
tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, so, I'm a user researcher, which we can get
into a little bit, but it informs a lot of
the writing that I do. So I've worked at several
big tech companies, and I write and I illustrate rate
have several nonfiction books, and I'm actually also working on
some novels.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Oh wonderful. I'm so excited about that and can't wait
to read it, so tell us, yeah about user experience
and what this means for people.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, so a user researcher, I like to think of
it as one of the more people friendly roles in tech.
So essentially where they're to translate what do people really need?
What are users really need from the products that we're building,
and we're kind of a voice for the people. So
rather than have someone say like, hey, I have this
great design idea, let's just build it, the user researcher
(01:34):
is really the intermediary to say, like, let's actually go
talk to some people, see what they need, see how
this fits into their world or doesn't make sure it's usable,
beautifully designed, but also easy to use and actually functional.
So it involves a lot of surveys but also one
on one interviews, moderating group workshops, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, because it feels like a lot of tech may
have a great thing it's supposed to do, but it's
very hard for the user to understand it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I mean do you counter that a lot?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah? I mean basically the goal is to not have
you be on a page and be confused or get stuck,
you know, not be able to find a button, you know,
at a very micro level, and then I think at
the macro level, it's really saying, you know, this is
something that should bring something to your life, something positive,
whether that's you know, purely functional or joyful and not
(02:26):
be you know, a pet project. Let's say that someone
just got really excited about but really just has no
purpose in somebody's life.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
So, as part of doing this user research, you were
listening to a lot of people, which then you pivoted
to writing about that and becoming an expert on listening.
Can you tell us a little bit about your book
on listening?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, you know, it was interesting because as a user researcher,
you're spending a lot of time interviewing people, having these
really deep conversations in a very short amount of time.
I mean these these could be really personal conversations about
things like finances, and you only get forty five minutes,
maybe sixty minutes to talk to someone, and so you
(03:09):
really have to build the ability to go very deep
very quickly. And that's not easy. You're you know, you're
talking to a stranger, somebody who's never met you before,
who maybe doesn't really understand whether even showing up to
this company and you know, showing up to a lab
it can be intimidating, and so you have to use
a lot of tools and techniques to instantly build rapport
(03:32):
to be able to get to those deeper questions without
it feeling like an interrogation or invasive. And the more
time I spent in the lab and was seeing, you know,
the benefits of using these techniques in that setting, and
then I could kind of easily contrast that with, oh, wait,
I'm in this meeting with my peers and everybody's talking
(03:52):
past each other, or you know, I'm having an everyday
conversation with my husband and we're also just like totally
on different wavelengths. You know, it seemed really obvious to
me that those techniques could be pourted over to the
real world, not just to you know, make conversations run
more smoothly, but ultimately to build better relationships, because I
(04:15):
think that's what it's really about. When you're able to
be a good listener, it opens so much up between
you and that other person. So it's really about leveraging
that to build better and deeper connections.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Absolutely, and I know that's something a lot of people want,
but someone listening to this might be like, well, okay,
I listen all the time. What am I doing wrong?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Like?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What am I doing wrong when I'm listening? That is
precluding these deeper connections.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, you know, I think most of us when we listen,
fall into what I would call service listening. So we're
hearing enough of what's being said to not in smile,
you know, maybe there's a follow up question or two.
You know, it's not that we're totally absent of any
listening skills. Right, It's like, you get through your day,
you're not getting fired, you're being polite to the cash whatever, Right, Like,
(05:01):
all of those things are true, but they're not exactly
going very deep those conversations. And so what I'm proposing
is to shift more to what I call empathetic listening,
which is really about getting to a point of connection
with someone else where you understand where the other person
is coming from. And I think it's safe to say
that a lot of times in our everyday conversations, we're
(05:22):
not in that mode. We're not registering quite that deep. Well,
what are some techniques we can use? Like, if somebody's
listening to this and wants to try something today, what
could they do. I think the first thing is to
really go into it with what I call a listening mindset,
and there's three components to that. So the first is humility,
and this is maybe the hardest one, but it's really
coming in with a spirit of being open to being wrong,
(05:47):
kind of setting your own opinion aside, not just your opinion,
also any preconceived notions, maybe even expertise that you have.
I think that can actually be really quite difficult when
you feel like you know a lot about a subject
or area, or have really strong opinions, but just setting
that aside and saying, Okay, actually my purpose here right
now is not to teach. It's too more take a
(06:07):
student role and learn from this other person. So humility
really coming in with that mindset is kind of the
first piece. And then you also want to bring in
a spirit of curiosity. This I think is often missing
from our everyday conversations. Maybe there's a topic that you
just you really don't find interesting. For me a lot
of times, it's sports, right, It's just not something that
(06:29):
makes my heart sing. So I have to work harder
when I'm in conversation with someone and they are a
sports fan. Let's say and it would be easy for
me to say, all right, they're talking about the super Bowl.
I don't really care about that, Like I'm going to
tune out. I have to find a thread that I
can tag and get curious about. Okay, why is this
person so interested in this topic? Why are they such
(06:51):
a sports fan? Did they play sports as a kid?
Were their parents really into sports? What does it mean
that our culture is really into you know, the super Bowl?
Like what can I learn from this? Right? Like, there's
always something that I can get curious about. For me,
for example, my in is while I'm not interested in
sports per se, I do find the drama around you know,
(07:14):
coaching styles and you know how people are drafted and
why and all of that, Like I think that's actually
quite interesting. So that's kind of my in. But it's
figuring out, like what is your in into this topic
that you can stay present and stay engaged instead of
just saying, you know what that is not for me,
I'm going to tune out. And then the third piece
I think is empathy, and that's really going deeper of
(07:35):
you know, why is this person bringing this to me?
What is it that they're trying to get out of
this conversation, What is it that they experience on a
human level, you know, is their grief tied to this?
Is their joy tied to this? And it's not to
say that we have to have experienced the same thing.
You know, if someone is sharing a story about a
(07:58):
layoff and you've never experienced that, that's okay, But maybe
you can tap into the feeling behind that, which is,
you know, somebody is grieving this loss in their life
and it was unexpected and surprising, and that must be
really difficult. And have you ever had, you know, some
kind of grief that you can tap into there. So
I think those three components, when you're able to bring
(08:20):
them all to the four, really sent you up for
having a very different kind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So I want to ask about that last part though.
I mean, empathy is for sure so important and we're
trying to but by hooking that to something that I
have maybe experienced in my life, I think we might
accidentally fall into the trap of then being like, oh
me too, Yeah you got laid off, you know, I
(08:46):
some other random thing that had been bad to me.
And I feel like that's probably not the best style
of listening.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
No, I think you're right. I think there's a difference though,
between tapping into that feeling and sitting with it and
bearing witness to the other person experiencing that and doing
what you're saying, which is I would call that identifying
where you go, oh, yeah, yeah, like this is exactly
like what I experienced, and then maybe you share about
that and suddenly you're talking about your experience and the
other person might go, wait a minute, like how did
(09:14):
we get here? Like now they're talking about the loss
of their dog that has nothing to do with, you know,
the way I feel. So I do think it's important to,
you know, try and get to that feeling, but then
to also clarify, like what is actually needed in this conversation.
It might be obvious, it might not be. You know this.
This instinct to identify is one of what I call
(09:39):
a default listening mode. We all have them. It's like
a way of showing up in conversation. So some people
are instant identifiers. Other people are instant problem solvers. They
hear everything and they're like, ah, that's a problem to
be solved, like let me come up with solutions, let
me brainstorm with this person. Or they're a validator where
they just want to cheerlead, you know, and say like, yeah,
you were right in that argument, like that person totally
(10:00):
didn't get it. These are all ways of showing up
in conversation. There's nothing wrong with them, but you do
have to take a step back when you're in a
conversation and ask yourself, Okay, my instinct is to identify,
to offer my my similar experience or to problem solve,
to offer solution. Is that actually what this person needs
(10:22):
or is it something else? And I think that is
kind of how you manage some of some of that.
It's sort of being aware of what that instinctive pull
is to respond and then maybe a little bit of
a gut check or even asking like hey, like you know,
my instinct would be to maybe brainstorm with you, is
that what you're looking for and get that clarity.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, to ask, I mean sometimes you can in fact,
just to ask exactly. Well, we're going to take a
quick ad break and then we'll be back with more
tips on better listening. Well, I am back talking with
him and a vinga Cha. She is the author of
several books, including Listen Like You Mean It, Rest Easy,
(11:04):
and The Life Audit One of the techniques you talk
about in Listen like you mean it is the power
of silence. And I know you use this to good
effect in your user research interviews, trying to get people
to talk about what they were experiencing. How can we
sort of build this into everyday life.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that silence allows
is for processing. It's for thinking through, and it's giving
space for another person to vocalize, to verbalize that. So
often our very human instinct is if a conversation goes quiet,
we want to rush in and fill the void because
(11:44):
it's uncomfortable. You maybe have like a little bit of
an inner monologue of oh God, did I say something
to offend this person? Or have I bored them? Or geez,
like I need to I need to come up with
something else to say, Like I need to be spontaneous
and fun. And you know, we can get in our
own head about these kinds of things. But sometimes silence
is just a way for the other person to finish
(12:07):
the thought, you know, to think it through a little
bit more, or to open up. Maybe they're building up
towards sharing something vulnerable that you know it was difficult
to say immediately, right so we want to give the
conversation breathing room. We want to give that space, and
that can be very hard for people. It's very hard
(12:28):
for me. So, like one of the things that you
can do is to just you know, if you feel
that silent moment encroaching and you're starting to get uncomfortable,
try counting to ten, you know, just see what will happen.
Maybe nothing happens, that's okay too. But usually when you
do give people a little bit of space, they'll they'll
(12:49):
bring something to the conversation that was maybe unexpected that
you didn't really know. Oh, we're going to go there, Okay, great.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, what are some ways to show that we're engaged
in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, part of it
is physical. It's like, you know, eye contact can be
very important, you know, nodding your head along, some of
these natural cues that I think most of us are
probably doing and you don't have to think too much about.
But you know, if you're someone who generally avoids eye contact,
maybe that's something that you want to start incorporating into
(13:23):
your conversation. But some of these are also just verbal cues.
So it's asking good follow up questions. It's kind of
nudging the conversation along. It's demonstrating an interest by really
engaging with what they're saying. And people can tell when
you know you're asking a question for the sake of
it versus you're actually invested, because the types of questions
(13:43):
that you're more likely to ask are going to be
more specific, They're going to be a little bit deeper
rather than surface level. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I mean, although with that, are there any good sort
of deepening questions that can kind of nudge people to
keep going and show that you're engaged.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, I mean I like to think of you know,
questions come in different categories. Some questions are going to
close a conversation and some questions are going to open
them up. So you want to try and avoid simply
close ended questions, So questions that are going to result
in a yes or no answer. So questions that start
with do are that kind of thing you want to
(14:20):
go for more open ended what how? Why is tricky
because why can sound like you're interrogating someone, so that
one is maybe less useful, But so thinking about how
you're framing questions so less you know, are you nervous
about that work presentation, and more, hey, how do you
feel about that presentation coming up? So you're not you know,
(14:43):
projecting onto that person and how they might be experiencing something.
So I think those questions can be useful. And then
the last thing I'll say is just sometimes just when
you can sense that somebody also, you know, maybe there's
more to say and you're kind of tiptoeing around it,
just repeating what they've said and giving some space for
(15:04):
it or slightly paraphrasing it. It can be really simple like, oh,
you know, you mentioned feeling upset, and you can pause,
you know, and see what they say. Or you can
add a little nudge like you're feeling upset because and
pause and again like people will kind of fill in
(15:25):
the blanks. So those are some of the ways that
you can deep in and show that engagement at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Excellent tips. Well, I want to pivot to your more
recent book because I definitely want listeners to check that
out as well. The life Audit. What on Earth is
a life audit?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Great question? Yes, So the life audit is an exercise
in self reflection and really getting to know yourself in
order to essentially architect the life that you want. So
it's a way of uncovering your deepest wishes, desires, goals,
and also your core values and essentially looking and seeing,
like do my core values align with the life that
(16:03):
I want to live? Am I pursuing the goals, these wishes,
these desires. Have I set my life up in a
way that I can see these things through? And I
think it's it's useful for anyone who you know, wants
to take a step back and sort of reflect on
where they are in their journey and where they want
(16:23):
to go. And it's particularly useful if you're at some
kind of crossroads, like maybe you've just graduated college, maybe
you've just changed jobs, or you're thinking about changing careers.
Maybe you've just had a child and that's kind of
upended your world. So I think there are lots of
moments where this can be useful, and it could also
(16:44):
just be as simple as you know, an annual sort
of like the new Year, you want to reflect and
see like what do I want to add of this
year of my life.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
One of the things you suggest people do is come
up with a hundred wishes that you're putting on post
it notes, and you give people very limited time to
come up with these as well. I've often suggested listeners
do what we call it a list of one hundred
dreams around here, you know, one hundred things you'd like
to spend more time doing in your life, or goals
that will take more time that you want to do.
(17:13):
But I've never actually forced anyone to do it in
an hour, so I'm curious about the time limit and
how you came up with that.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, you know, I think it's useful to have constraints.
In the same way that it's useful to say, hey,
aim for a hundred I think it's useful to try
and do it in an hour. Obviously, this is your life, audit.
If you want to take more time, go ahead and
take more time. You know no one's gonna check up
on you. But I think that that constraint, it's really
about focusing that time because many of us don't make
(17:44):
the time to ask these big questions of ourselves. So honestly,
even an hour kind of feels luxurious if you think
about it that way, right, But that our time frame
and using those post its, those are deliberate constraints. Like
I suggest sticky notes and not you know, an Excel spreadsheet,
because then you've got a device, and then you've got notifications.
(18:06):
And I suggest a sticky note with a sharpie because
it forces you to write less. Right, you cannot write
that much when you're using a sharpie on a three
by three sticky notes. It forces you to kind of
get to the heart of that wish or desire. So
all of those constraints are really intentional to help you
uncover these these deeper desires with the tools that you
(18:29):
already have.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And do you have a good process for once people
sort of brainstorm a lot of things that they would
like to do for giving themselves any sort of timeline
for achieving these.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, So the first part of the Life Audit is
really about uncovering those goals and then sort of doing
an affinity mapping where you're grouping things into themes and
starting to see patterns and saying, wow, I have a
lot of goals or wishes around health or a lot
around career, community, whatever it may be. And then the
second part of the book does focus on Okay, you've
(19:01):
got all of these wishes, now how do I prioritize them?
And what does that look like. And I always like
to remind people that, you know, whatever plan you come
up with, this is over the course of your life,
right because it can feel overwhelming to look at everything
and go, oh my god, there's so much that I
want to do. Where do I begin and how quickly
can I do these things? But it is a pretty long,
(19:24):
you know, timeframe we're talking about. So usually what I
suggest is that people start to focus on let's say,
three to five things they want to get done in
the near term, you know, and you can separate it
out from these are let's say core values. These are
things that I want to carry with me every day,
So things like I really want to be patient or generous,
(19:45):
those are things that are going to live with you
and you want to carry that every day. But then
there are also the things that maybe you want to
get done in the next six months, six to twelve months,
let's say. And then there are things like you know,
live abroad that maybe that's something that you'll do in retirement.
Who knows, right, So at least that initial framing of
is it every day, is it six to twelve months out,
(20:07):
is it much further out? And then from there, once
you pick those, let's say three to five that you
want to work on. Then you start breaking everything down
into even smaller chunks. Okay, you want to live abroad
at some point, great, what do you have to do?
Like do you have to learn a language? Do you
want to sign up for language classes? Do you want
to visit that place? Plan a visit first? And so
(20:29):
then you start really getting into the nitty gritty. So
it's kind of like I'm motioning, nobody can see, but
it's kind of like a funnel right where you're starting
pretty broad and getting more and more specific because that's
what makes it actionable.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeap, big goals down to doable steps exactly. Well, we're
going to take one more quick ad break and then
we'll be back with a little bit more about him
INA's productivity routines. Well, I am back talking with him
and Vingoateea about her books on listening, her book on
(21:02):
the Life Audit. I want to talk about your routines.
I've always love to hear about what makes people more productive.
Do you have any particular routines that make you more productive?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah? So I always think about it as like every
person has their personal productivity zone, which is like a
time of day or a place, an environment, something that
makes you more productive. And for me, I've always been
more productive in the morning, and so I design my
day around that, and I'm very careful about what I
take on in the morning, so I don't do any
(21:32):
any admin I don't do anything that's sort of like
just responsive in the mornings. The mornings I really reserve
for strategic work, creative work, that sort of deep thinking
happens in the morning. And then the afternoons, when I
know that my body is more tired out and then
I'm not as sharp, that's when I'm really focusing on
some of those smaller tasks. So that's one of the
(21:53):
things that I do. And then another thing that I
do is I use a lot of analog tools, So
I have a weekly planner, I have a calendar, I
have a daily to do list, and all of that
is just physical pen and paper where I can chart out, Okay,
this is what I think I'm doing for the week,
and then every day, hour by hour, this is what
I'm going to try and get done. Especially as someone
(22:16):
who you know doesn't have a boss to report to
and is in charge of their own deadlines, it's helpful
to see that kind of laid out like that, where
you can be a little more realistic about how you're
going to spend each day without all the device distractions.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
And is this planning process something you kind of do
on a weekly basis looking to the next week or
or is it more every day you're looking to the
next day or to a larger frame of time. I'm
curious to the cadence of it.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It's a little bit of boath. So you know, with
a book project, I have targets that I'm trying to meet,
deadlines that I'm trying to meet, but as you know,
you know, when you're working on a project of that size,
the deadlines don't always work. But I have so I
have things that I'm striving toward and then kind of
working backwards. But it can be as simple as you know,
(23:05):
I'm working on a novel right now, and so for
this week, it was sort of like, Okay, the goal
is to try and revise the first part of the novel.
That's the goal for the week, and then daily I'm
kind of tracking progress. I'm going, okay, now you're working
on chapters like seven through nine today, Like that's the
goal and then hourly it's sort of like, Okay, I
(23:26):
think chapter seven is going to take three hours, Like,
let's see how that goes. So it's really kind of
again funneling down from there.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, great, great ideas. What's something you have done recently
to take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah? I love this question because I think, you know,
when I was thinking of examples, really they all came
down to introducing more entropy into my day and taking
more breaks. So, you know, especially having written a book
on rest, I thought about this a lot of you know,
we're not machines, even though we sometimes feel like we
ought to be, and constantly producing. For me at least,
(24:04):
I think for many of us, taking breaks is just
it's like this huge mental unlock. It's a big reset.
And the most exciting breaks for me are the ones
that are just like a little bit different, things that
don't quote unquote book productive. So having coffee with a
friend who is it's totally unrelated to anything that I'm
(24:24):
working on, I will leave that feeling so invigorated and
so energized, even if I didn't you know, talk at
all about work or setting up you know, a writing
sort of like mini retreat with someone, I'm going to
get less work done than if I were to do
it at home alone. But just that little bit of entropy,
(24:46):
that spark that helps kind of reset things, or even
just you know, taking an extra long walk with my
dog because it's sunny out. All of those things that
again on paper, you're like, wow, I just I kind
of ninety minutes of the day there, like probably shouldn't
have done that I find are actually really helpful. That's
slowing down the act of slowing down. It just does
(25:09):
something where it's this really important creative mental reset, and
I often find that that is when I'm solving problems.
You know, it's like stepping away is really the biggest
thing that I can do.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, we love little adventures around here. It's a good
way to make a schedule a lot more fun. So
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, so I have a website Humana Vanguitrea dot com
and a newsletter where I talk a lot about these
kinds of topics and that's Jimena dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Awesome, Oh, Himana, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
on this, or any other episode. You can always reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in
the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's
to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening
(26:03):
to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts
from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(26:26):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Before Breakfast News
Host
Laura Vanderkam
Show Links
AboutPopular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Clifford Show
The Clifford Show with Clifford Taylor IV blends humor, culture, and behind-the-scenes sports talk with real conversations featuring athletes, creators, and personalities—spotlighting the grind, the growth, and the opportunities shaping the next generation of sports and culture.