It Could Happen Here Weekly 234

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Colson Media.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but
you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. My name
is Dona el kurd I, am a researcher and analyst
of Arab and Palestinian politics. I'm recording this on May nineteenth,
twenty twenty six, and this past weekend, May fifteenth was
Nekba Day. Nakba is the Arabic word for catastrophe, and
Nekba Day commemorates when close to a million Palestinians were

(00:51):
expelled in nineteen forty eight with the founding of the
Israeli state, so the Palestinian Catastrophe. Hundreds of villages and
towns were destroyed, and many Palestinians were made refugees in
camps around the new state. In Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon,
and farther afield. Within Israel, Palestinians who somehow managed to

(01:14):
remain were put under a military rule. As the past
fewers have demonstrated, and as many Palestinians will tell you, this,
Nekba never ended. Usually I use this podcast to discuss
current events or to interview someone who is an expert
on a dynamic I'm interested in and I think is
useful for people to hear. But today I'm going to
be doing something a little different and outside my comfort zone.

(01:38):
I'm going to share my personal family history and Arnakba story.
I'm a Palestinian from Jerusalem. Both sides, my mom and
my dad are from Jerusalem, and I was born there.
Usually when people ask me where I'm from and I
say that, they just assume East Jerusalem because that's where
Palestinians have been sequestered today. They were driven out of

(01:59):
West Jerusalem nineteen forty eight, but actually some of my
family were from the western side of the city. My
paternal grandmother and her family lost their home in West
Jerusalem in nineteen forty eight. My grandmother ended up spending
three years in akoby Jab at refugee camp outside of
Jericho because my great grandfather had been wounded trying to
defend the city and they were waiting to see if

(02:20):
they could return. My grandmother has told me details about
this time. She talked about the makeshift school in the
camp that only went up to the eighth grade, So
my grandmother repeated the year a couple of times and
then eventually dropped out of school because she couldn't continue
past the eighth grade. Now, the rest of her siblings,
especially upon their return to Jerusalem, were all fully educated

(02:43):
as adults. Many of them held advanced degrees. My grandmother
was the only one, as the eldest, who had paid
the price of displacement in this way. She was trained
as a seamstress later on, but always lamented that she
had to leave school early. She also told me about
her how in Bah, which is in West Jerusalem neighborhood
in West Jerusalem before it was taken during the Nekba.

(03:05):
This was a newer neighborhood with nice views of the city,
where middle class Palsainian families were expanding their homes as
their families expanded. My grandmother's family had only moved into
this house two months prior to the Nekba, and she
used to tell me how the house had been newly
painted and it was made of beautiful stones. Before she
passed away, she would often cry over this house as

(03:27):
if it had just been taken. That house, by the way,
still stands in West Jerusalem. The last time I visited Palestine,
and my grandmother's younger siblings showed me pictures of themselves
posing in front of their house, now occupied by Israelis.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Now.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
My grandmother's story is very typical, but also very lucky
because her and her family they did become refugees, yes,
but they found their way back to the city. Most
Palestinians were never able to return back to their hometowns.
They were lucky in that sense that they had property
and family in other parts of the city on the
eastern side, and they were able to continue. We were

(04:02):
able to continue. That's how I was born in Jerusalem
myself because of that. Look. Now, on my maternal side,
I don't know as much about them and their neck
of a story. I left Palestine when I was a child.
I don't have a close relationship with the mother's side
of the family, and they harbor a lot of secrets.
I never knew much about their histories and their dramas.

(04:23):
My maternal grandmother is divorced and the family had fractured
in particular ways, so there was a lot of touchiness.
Many parts of the family were estranged from each other.
One thing I did eventually find out when I was
a teenager was that my mother's grandmother, so my great grandmother,
was actually Israeli. This was my mother's paternal grandmother, her dad,

(04:47):
that she no longer had a relationship with because of
her parents' divorce, and I didn't have much information beyond
that I knew her name Rachel, but nobody really wanted
to talk about this Israeli great grandmother. It was also
an uncomfortable finding for me at the time because I'm
a past Indian from Jerusalem. The only Israelis I had
ever engaged with at that point were soldiers, so I

(05:09):
didn't press the subject. It was just another family secret
we didn't talk about. When I got older, I got
more curious about this and I asked for more information,
and I asked my dad to confirm whether this was true,
that my mother did in fact had an Israeli grandmother,
Like this wasn't just a rumor. And he said he
had met her himself. In fact, he had met her

(05:30):
while I was a toddler, apparently, and I had met her,
though of course I had no recollection. My dad says
that during her visit to my mother's family, so this
would be Rachel's grandchildren and then her daughter in law,
there had been some argument and they had harangued her
over the actions of her state and her state's military,

(05:52):
and according to my dad, she replied that it had
nothing to do with her because she came during the
British Mandate era, she was classified as a past Indian Jew.
And he told me as much of the story as
he had been told. Rachel was a Polish Jewish woman.
She came to Palestine. She married my great grandfather, who,
by my father's description, was kind of a wealthy Palestinian

(06:13):
playboy type.

Speaker 5 (06:14):
They had two.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Children, and in nineteen forty eight, when Israel was founded
and Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, my great grandmother and great
grandfather split up. What my dad understood to have happened
was Rachel left, her children joined her new countrymen.

Speaker 6 (06:29):
And that was that.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
So, as I said, Jerusalem was split up. The western
side was cleared of its Palestinians. There was an armistice
line where actually the newfound Israeli state housed recent Arab
Jewish migrants sort of as cannon fodder. One of those
neighborhoods where Arab Jews were replaced later birth the Israeli
Black Panthers. And then the western side was under Israeli

(06:53):
rule and Palstinians on the eastern side of the city
fell under Jordanian rule. So the story goes that my
great grandmother their left and my great grandfather put his
children in an orphanage. My dad says he heard they
were often mistreated, possibly because their.

Speaker 5 (07:09):
Mother was Israeli. And later, when.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Israel occupied the rest of Jerusalem and the city was unified,
my great grandmother did go looking for her children, but
my grandfather didn't connect with her, so her son and
moved to Jordan. Now from my mother, I also pressed
for more information. She had never told me any of
the story, but this year, literally a few weeks ago,
she finally gave me Rachel's last name. I dug around

(07:32):
to see what I could find out about her. I
asked online. I got the help of people who had
expertise in Jewish genealogy, and what I found was a
much more complicated picture. First, I found an academic article
about a quote non partisan Zionist youth group in Belgium
in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. I don't speak Hebrew,

(07:53):
so I'm going to mispronounce this. I think it's called
zeier Ham getting their members ready to make the journey
to Palestine. That's what this article was about. They were
nonpartisan in the sense that they included a lot of
different strains of Zionism, so right wing Zionism, left wing
Zionism among the members, but the Zionism itself, of course

(08:14):
was taken as a given. Now, the article included quotes
from former members of this group and kind of grainy
black and white photos of which the name Rachel appeared
in the captions with her last name. And when I
first saw the woman identified as Rachel in this group photo,
I knew instinctively that I had found her because she

(08:35):
looked like a blonde version of my mother. My intuition
was very quickly confirmed because Rachel was identified by her
married Palestinian name in the footnotes where she was quoted.
So I found her here she was. I wanted to

(08:57):
know more about what had happened to her after these
pictures Belgium were taken. The article states that she immigrated
to Palstine in the early nineteen thirties at the encouragement
of her quote Zionist mother. But what had led her
between nineteen thirty three and nineteen forty eight to marry
and then leave a Palestinian And then why was she
visiting her grandchildren and apparently me in the nineteen nineties.

(09:21):
The second big piece of information I got was because
of a Blue Sky account puy m Und Genealogy. This
is a person who works on Jewish genealogy, has an
interest in it, and he helped find an article that
had been written about my great grandmother in the Israeli
magazine Mahrev. So shout out to this guy. Now. This
article was dated June twelfth, nineteen eighty seven. It's a

(09:43):
three page spread and in this interview that Rachel gives,
she talks about her childhood in Antwerp, her immigration to
Palestine as a young woman, and her marriage. So apparently
after her civil ceremony with my great grandfather in nineteen
thirty five, they had traveled Acros Europe for a whole year,
even meeting the extended family in Poland, where Rachel's family

(10:05):
was originally from. Her new husband was honored by her uncle,
who was an important rabbi. Now, for reasons she does
not outline, Rachel discusses leaving her husband, maybe assuming the
separation would be temporary in nineteen forty eight, But unlike
the story that my father had heard and I had
been told, she had not left her children, and in

(10:26):
fact there had been four of them. She left two
of them with their father and took the eldest and
the baby that she was pregnant with to West Jerusalem.
She kept her married name, and she never officially divorced.
I can only assume that she didn't guess the city
would be divided, or maybe didn't understand for how long now,
when Israel took the rest of the city in nineteen

(10:46):
sixty seven, she not only reconnected with her I guess
Palestinian children, but it seems from this article had warm
relationships with them until the end. Rachel had assisted my grandfather,
her son in marrying my grandmother, compiling the dowry. The
children who had been raised ISRAELI had reconnected with their

(11:07):
family to varying degrees. Some of the Pastinian children visited
the Israeli children in Tel Aviv. According to this interview,
Rachel even reconnected with her husband, my great grandfather, living
with him until he passed in nineteen eighty three. Rachel
had also maintained a relationship with her daughter in law,
my maternal grandmother, even after her son's divorce. In this article,

(11:31):
I recognized the descriptions of my mother and my aunts.
Rachel had kept visiting them until she died in the
mid nineteen nineties, so that explains the visit that my
father had witnessed. I quickly realized that, of course, it
had been easier for many members of my family to
pretend this had never happened, try to keep the truth
of these relationships from their children. I suppose they preferred

(11:54):
a neater's story of clean breaks and solid national divisions.
It is also not long on me that much of
this obfuscation relies on the common misogynistic trope of the
negligent mother, which was apparently easy for everyone to believe. Now,
I won't say that israel Pastinian marriages are common, or
that intimate relationships between the two groups are easy to find,

(12:16):
but they aren't unheard of. Israeli political parties are certainly
scared enough of this prospect. They often voice condemnations of
inter ethnic relationships of this kind. So this phenomenon must
exist at some level, and I guess I shouldn't be
surprised either, because Palestine's most well known poet, Mahmud Rush,
was famous for his poetry, among many of them a

(12:37):
poem he wrote to his Jewish girlfriend titled Rita. This
was the same man that joined the PLO, lived through
the Israeli siege of Beirut, and wrote the pawsdinan declaration
of independence. Now, Rachel's story really boggled my mind in
its contradictions because she had been part of a Zionist
youth group, she had actively joined an effort to facilitate

(12:59):
the migration of your or Jewish population to Palestine, eventually
leading to the displacement of Palestinians. But she had married
to Palestinian and in the interview from Ariv, she describes
running to the eastern part of the city when Israel
occupied it in nineteen sixty seven to see quote her friends,
and she says she would marry my great grandfather all
over again. If she could you see, dear, it was

(13:20):
a great love, she told their interviewer. Ironically, my parents
and my maternal grandparents, all of which share national and
religious identities, both ended up divorced, but Rachel and her
Palestinian Muslim husband somehow state together. At the same time.
Rachel turned a blind eye to many things, and she
herself hid many things. For example, she doesn't reveal the

(13:43):
details of her children raised as Israeli. The interviewer in
the mar Of magazine interview emphasizes that they wouldn't want
their information known, especially about their lineage. It seems that
neither ever reconnected with their palsinan father and most telling
for me in that interview, when my maternal grandmother, Rachel's

(14:04):
daughter in law, complains of the Israeli soldiers in the
neighborhood that she lived in, the interviewer reports that Rachel
feigns deafness and returns the conversation to a discussion of
the children. Now, Rachel isn't abnormal. Israeli society has turned
a blind eye to many things. Many Israelis pretend that

(14:24):
the Palestinians as a national group do not exist they
prefer to think of them, preferred to think of us
as the reincarnation of Nazis, or the modern day manifestation
of anti Semitism, or at best, Palestinians are merely generic
Arabs with easily sever ties to this particular land. The
Israeli state even grows pine trees over emptied and demolished

(14:45):
Palestinian villages to ensure return is impossible and to hide
the extent of what happened in the latest war on Gaza.
Images and videos from Gaza are dismissed as Ai fabrications.
They call it Pollywood, just an effort by Palestinians to
put Israel in a bad light, and governments the world
over seemed to have taken this position of turning a

(15:07):
blind eye to the oppression Palstinians have faced and assuming
Palstinians would live and die never having exercised their basic rights.
All I can say is I'm living proof that these
silences prolong the inevitable, that the truth eventually comes out
and the return is inevitable. The longer we wait to
acknowledge the reality of the situation, the more people will suffer,

(15:29):
and the more this kind of intergenerational trauma will continue.
I recently finished Molly Krabapple's book Here where We Live
as Our Country. On the Jewish Bound, she quotes a
Jewish Bundislivic Hodes saying that quote, belief in mankind is
not popular today. In these last years, we have all
seen it become deeply debased, despoiled and spat on. But

(15:52):
if man is at heart a beast, no amount of
running away will help end quote. This really resonated with me.
I firmly believe that we can't rely on silence to
disappear our problems. We can't run from each other. Let
my family history be a testament to that. When we
understand that, then the truth and the resolution and the

(16:13):
return is only a matter of time, and maybe then
the nakba will end. Thank you for listening and hope
you all stay safe.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Welcome to It could happen here, a podcast about going
on strike and hopefully winning. I am your host, Mia Wong.
There's a concept in You're in Organizing called a hot shop,
which is a shop where everything is moving really really quickly,
and people are organizing really quickly, and bad stuff is
happening really quickly, and people are reacting really quickly, and
today we are going to talk to maybe the hottest

(16:56):
shop I have ever encountered, and to discuss the shop.
I am talking to Jackie May and Deja Indigo, who
are members and organizers of Real You Electrolysis Workers United.
Both of you two, welcome to the show.

Speaker 6 (17:12):
Hi, thank you, thank you for having us, Thank you
for having us on such short notice. You said hot shop,
and yeah, it's been a week, very hot week.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Indeed, I had heard this was going on and it
was there's an attempt to go public. The next thing
I heard was like the next day and there was
a strike.

Speaker 7 (17:32):
And I was like, oh my god, this is wild.
So yeah, not even a week ago. Yeah, it will be.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
I think by the time you're listening to this it
will be one week.

Speaker 7 (17:43):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's fair. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
I want to mention this is being recorded on Monday
and May twenty fifth. This situation is moving very quickly.
There was a chance that things have changed by then.
We will try to get an update in if something
really major hass happened. But let's roll this back to
the beginning. And I think the place I want to
start is so you all are gets real You electrolysis

(18:11):
workers United. So you are electrolysis workers. I know this
audience specifically of it could happen here has a significantly
higher chance of the general population to know what electrolysis is.
But can you explain for people who don't know or
only kind of familiar, what electrolysis is.

Speaker 7 (18:30):
Of course, electrolysis is the only FDA recognized method of
permanent hair removal. It is a technique that dates back
a surprisingly long time where we insert a filament about
the size of a hair into individual hair follicles, and
with the use of electricity to generate either heat or lie,

(18:54):
we basically kill each hair follicle at its root, and
that hair, if all goes according to plan, will not
come back. It is commonly used in gender affirming care,
and that is one of the if not the specialty
of real you electrolysis.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, and can you talk a bit about this in
a gender affirming care context?

Speaker 7 (19:16):
Of course, you know, if you are a transgender person
and you are undergoing medical transition, there is a variety
of reasons you might want to have hair permanently removed,
either in preparation for surgery, both in terms of a
transfeminine or trans masculine surgical context, you will need hair

(19:37):
permanently removed from some parts of your body that will
be involved in that. You also may want to have
facial hair or body hair permanently removed. Again, this supplies
to both transfeminine, transmasculine, and people anywhere else on the
transgender spectrum, because you know, not everybody wants to have

(19:57):
body hair or facial hair.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, and this is something that I mean, I can
personally say you can get a lot of dysphoria from
body hair.

Speaker 7 (20:06):
It can be real bad. Oh yeah, I can't.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
And not having it is such a huge difference. Yes,
And I guess a thing that I should say, so
my understanding of electrolysisms. I have not done electrolysists. I
have a lot of friends you have. But the thing
about electrolysis versus like you know, shaving or something, is
that once you hit a hair follicle, it's gone, and theoretically,
after you're done with you know, like a bunch of

(20:31):
the sessions, you just.

Speaker 7 (20:33):
Don't have hair growing daring. Yes, correct, And also I
should note that it is also covered by most health
insurance that does coverage under affirming care I know we
all have kind of mixed feelings about the w PATH standards,
but it is considered the standard of care for hair
removal under the w PATH. So, you know, a significant

(20:57):
proportion of the patients at the really electron this clinic
are using insurance to pay for their care. Yeah, which
is really cool.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Not all trans healthcare is that expensive, but electrolysis is
not the most cheap thing if you are paying out
of pocket and it's really long.

Speaker 7 (21:20):
Yeah, it's usually out of pocket. Is somewhere between one
hundred and twenty to two hundred and forty dollars an hour,
depending on your provider. And these are weekly sessions, usually
at least an hour. Sometimes they can be less for
those who have difficulty tolerating it. Some people go for
even more, like some patients may elect to get like

(21:41):
six hours of it done. But again, this is a
lot of out of pocket costs, especially when it generally
takes anywhere from a year and a half to three
years to fully clear an area. So this is why
it's so important to have this covered by insurance because
has it really adds up quickly.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, And I think this is also gets into what's
important about this shop, which is that this is one
of the few Latrills's places I've ever encountered where huge
portions of the staff are trans. Yes, and yeah, can
you talk a bit about what that's been like doing

(22:25):
you know, like doing this kind of gender firming care
on other trans people who normally could say this is
a medical setting. I can count on one finger the
number of trans healthcare providers. I mean, I guess if
you count pharmacists, I can add like a second finger

(22:45):
in my entire life that I'm extremely lucky that I've
even gotten one.

Speaker 7 (22:51):
Trans hectare provider who is trans.

Speaker 6 (22:54):
Well, it's an honor and a privilege to be able
to work with other trans people for gender firm and
care for our community. Because we don't just serve the
Vancouver area, we also serve the PDX area.

Speaker 7 (23:11):
And further, we have patients that commute from hours and
hours away. That is true.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, for people who don't know a little bit of
geography stuff that will become important later. So this is Vancouver, Washington,
which is just like right across a river from Portland.
This amazingly the fact that technically speaking, this river is
like the state border will become important in that little bit.

Speaker 7 (23:38):
Yes, yes, yes, it will. Oh boy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask all of you know,
put a little pin in city that is technically across
the state border from another city, but is like you
just drive over a bridge and you're there. Let's go
talk about some strike shit. Mm hmm Okay, so I
guess to start. Can we talk about how organizing kind
of first started at at Real Yola Chuls's.

Speaker 8 (24:03):
Yes, it first started because they hired me mi a
and hied me. Ever since I was a little girl,
I have been enchanted with the idea of a workers
union and people working together to make their conditions better.

Speaker 7 (24:22):
It is something that I have had to learn and.

Speaker 6 (24:24):
Practice on my own because I didn't know about the IWW.
It's a thing that I was trying to do before
I moved out here. And then this opportunity just drops
into my lap and it's queer people, and you're working
on queer people. I've got hosbumps. It's not because I'm cold,

(24:47):
and and how could I, in good conscience just like
let that opportunity go.

Speaker 7 (24:54):
Yeah. Yeah, Jackie May is very much the motive force
behind getting our shit together and unionizing. I remember from
the time that I started, Jackie May was talking about
having a goal to unionize the shop. We weren't expecting
it to be on such a quick timeline, but I

(25:17):
was really excited to have somebody else who was into
doing this because I've always been a hardcore leftist and
an extreme socialist communist. I don't know whatever label you
want to put on me workers' rights, like we should
own the means of production and we should be the

(25:38):
ones receiving all of the benefits from it. Yea, But
Jackie May has just been like ready to go. But
we can also talk about like the actual start to
like okay, what did we actually start doing things to
this direction?

Speaker 9 (25:55):
Right?

Speaker 7 (25:55):
You want to take that, Jackie May.

Speaker 6 (25:57):
Yeah, So like light to have been going on since
I got there back in actually June of last year.
It's always just been real light, real surface level is in, hey,
do you support a union? Would you like to consider.

Speaker 10 (26:12):
Being in one?

Speaker 7 (26:13):
One day?

Speaker 6 (26:14):
And then I go about my day like converse like
that's as far as the conversation goes, because that's all
the information I need at that point. Yeah, so I
knew who in the building was yes, and last month
one of our members, someone who was already in talks
with us, was fired, and the circumstances around that person

(26:38):
being fired, the vibes were off. Right, Like the previous week,
there was a dirty cart that just happened to appear
in her room that would be worth the write up
to get her fired. Huh, that cart couldn't have been

(27:00):
hers because before she started school, she moved that cart
to another to her substitute clinicians room. Like, could could
not be what management said it was.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
So it looks like something else fabricated to.

Speaker 7 (27:17):
Clarify this union member, This coworker was going on a
leave of absence to attend a certification training program, so
that is why she had a substitute clinician taking over
her equipment. I should also add that this was the

(27:38):
first time they have ever done room inspections on site yea.
In fact, the only they've only done room inspections twice
and both times resulted in a termination. Well that's not
suspicious at all anyway, Sorry, Jackie Maye, please continue, No worries.

(28:00):
It's okay, We're listen. We're allowed to rabbit trail.

Speaker 6 (28:03):
But we come back to So our friend was fired, right,
it's super duper suspicious. Yeah, And I saw an opportunity
and I took that opportunity to talk to people about it.
And for like a few days after this it happened,

(28:24):
nobody knew where she was at, nobody knew what happened.
So the narrative was entirely up to me and just going,
this is what they did, and we all know this.
We all know this person, We've worked alongside this person,
we all recognize her skill and how intelligent she is.
She's going to go on to teach this stuff. It's true,

(28:46):
and it made all of us scared that one of
our best could just be removed like that and go.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
This is my understanding. This is a pretty small shop, right,
like everyone knows everyone else.

Speaker 7 (29:02):
Oh yeah, yes, yeah, like maybe maybe fifteen or sixteen
practicing clinicians at a given time.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Thereabouts, which yeah, I guess makes it more scary when
it's someone you know, when you're close to, just is
just suddenly fired.

Speaker 7 (29:18):
And I should note that most of us who have
worked there are also patients there, so like a lot
of these a lot of our coworkers are not just coworkers,
they're also practitioners that provide gender affirming care to us.
So we don't just have like a superficial sense of

(29:38):
the clinical skill of these people. We have direct experience,
and that makes it just that much more devastating. When
it's somebody you know is extremely good at their job
is just suddenly gone under very suspicious circumstances, it's devastating.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
So this gets into one of the truly wildest and
most distressing parts of this entire story, which is, can
you talk about the I guess I would just call it.
The most neutral thing I can call it is the loan. Yes, absolutely.

(30:26):
So remember when we kind of put a pin in
the fact that Vancouver, Washington, is right across the river
from Portland, Oregon. So there is a big difference between
how the state of Washington and how the state of
Oregon regulates the practice of electrolysis. In the state of Oregon,

(30:46):
you cannot practice electrolysis without first going through a certification
program and passing a certification exam to become certified. In
the state of Washington, as long as you are practicing
under the authority of somebody who has been certified in
another state, you can practice electrolysis without certification. In fact,

(31:10):
the state of Washington does not currently have their own
certification framework for electrolysis, so those of us who work
at Real EU Electrolysis were all hired without prior certification.
I think there may be one or two exceptions over
the years, but by and large, the overwhelming majority are

(31:34):
people who have no prior experience performing electrolysis. So Really
You Electrolicists does have certified electrologists on staff who are
responsible for the training of new hires.

Speaker 7 (31:47):
One of the conditions of employment at Real U Electrolysis
is to agree to sign a promissory note, wherein Really
You Electrolicis will basically provide a stipend and pay for
all expenses related to receiving certification from a certification program

(32:09):
in exchange for four years of work at real Electrolysis.
Those who sign this note are not required to directly
pay back any money unless they either fail to complete
their schooling, fail to pass their certification, resign their position

(32:30):
within four years, or are terminated, and at that point
they are immediately liable to repay the full amount of
the promissory note. So essentially, as soon as you enter
schooling and again this is a condition of employment. Every

(32:51):
single person who has been hired by really Electrolysis could
not start working without signing a contract. Agreeing to sign
those prom story note when it comes time to be
sent to school.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, can you talk about, like, how much money is
it that you have to pay back if you either
get fired or leave.

Speaker 7 (33:09):
At least twenty one thousand dollars in this case, Jesus
Christ like, oh my god.

Speaker 11 (33:18):
Yeah, it's cartoonishly evil.

Speaker 7 (33:22):
Yeah. I should clarify as well that most of us
who are hired are not coming into this job from
a place of financial privilege. Most of us had some
manner of skepticism over this contract, but because the opportunity
just seemed so great, and because we had not heard
any history of, you know, any sort of bad faith

(33:44):
actions from management, I think we all just kind of decided, well,
I get to work with a bunch of cool trans
people on a bunch of cool trans people for decent
pay and benefits, and they probably won't just fire me
once I signed this loan, Like that wouldn't be cool.
And so where this really comes into play is that

(34:08):
the union member, the coworker who was fired, as I
mentioned before, was on a leave of absence to be
in school, and basically she was fired and immediately they
demanded repayment in full of this loan. So not only
did she lose her job over extremely spurious circumstances, she

(34:32):
now was on the hook for twenty one thousand dollars,
like immediately. I think the deadline they gave her is
in like two days.

Speaker 6 (34:41):
So I want to add something to all of that. Yeah,
they had her sign that loan knowing that she had
two write ups on the books and that her next
write up within those four years would lead to termination.
They knew that they have that on file.

Speaker 7 (35:02):
They admitted that to our faces. We had a group
of witnesses who can attest to this because we did
all confront them. That's jumping a little bit further ahead
in the story. We'll get there.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, I just I want to stay here for a
second to just sort of just walk through how unbelievably
unhinged this is.

Speaker 7 (35:26):
Which is that.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, So the condition of working here is that you
have to sign like what is effectively an a dentured servitude contract.
Like it's like, okay, you have to work here for
like four years, and if we ever decide to fire you,
you can't leave. And if you ever decide to fire you,

(35:46):
you just oh twenty one thousand dollars, which just on
the face of it is such an unbelievably exploitive situation
because yeah, this is a bunch of queer and trance
people like no, no fucking transperson and has twenty one
thousand dollars, Like that's just not a thing, Like yeah,
we should certainly not one thousand dollars, Like what are

(36:07):
we doing here.

Speaker 9 (36:08):
Like.

Speaker 6 (36:11):
Taking advantage of the trans community.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, and then you have that just as the baseline
condition of just everyone has just the doom of gamaicles
hanging over their head. And then also, you know, like
what you were describing were, okay, you get someone to
sign the contract knowing that you can get rid of
them after one more infraction. That's such an incredible incentive

(36:35):
to like mistreat and fire people, because if you fire someone,
you can just collect, like try to collect like twenty
one thousand dollars from.

Speaker 6 (36:46):
Them, financially ruin somebody, financially destroy somebody, render them homeless.

Speaker 7 (36:51):
Yeah, even Yeah, it's what we call a perverse incentive.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, you can just reduce someone effectively into a debt
peon and usually that kind of threat is abstract. This
is how we're It's a device to work and to
stay in line. If you lose your job, then you're
going to drown in all of the things you need
to do to survive. But no, here, it's just yeah,

(37:17):
you're down twenty one dollars.

Speaker 7 (37:20):
In debt to this company that just fired you. Yep,
and again that is due and payable immediately. That the
way the contract is worded does not stipulate any sort
of repayment period. Now, we have attestations from previous employees
who have been fired under this contract and been released

(37:41):
from it, so we do know that the owners of
Really Electronicis will selectively choose to release terminated employees from
their contract. However, they have elected not to do that
in the case of this union member, this coworker who
was fired last month. Correct.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, so that also that also looks like retaliation your words,
like sort of deliberately your words. Yeah, you know, it
doesn't look good. There aren't good answers as to why
you would do that in this situation and not in others.

Speaker 6 (38:15):
The story gets more fun too.

Speaker 7 (38:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, we're just getting started.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Before all of this gets even more unhinged, we need
to go to I don't know, maybe a source of
hingedeness and security. I mean, if that's true, I hope
better things happen in your lives. But we're throwing to
the products and services that support this podcast. We are back.

(38:51):
Let's continue with this story here and get to I
guess the next set of fir inks because this just
keeps escalating.

Speaker 6 (39:03):
So before we actually get to the next set of firings,
we would have our first and Dejah correct me if
I'm wrong, our second meeting. You are correct, Yeah, we
would have our first and second meeting before the next firing.

Speaker 7 (39:19):
May second, and May fourteenth. Yes, so that next firing
would take place on Monday, May eighteenth.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
That was Monday May eighteenth, Yeah, so like one week
ago from when this is getting recorded. Which bear that
in mind as the rest of the story plays out,
because the timeline here is so condensed that like it's
like all of the shit that happens with like a
bad union busting campaign condensed to the span of like
three days.

Speaker 6 (39:49):
Yes, we are speed running bad boss versus union workers story, Like.

Speaker 7 (39:56):
This is like one of the fastest escalations I've ever
seen before.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
We get this Monday, Let's talk about what happened at
those two meetings, because this is genuinely such an impressive pace, Like,
how fast all of this got organized?

Speaker 7 (40:12):
Yes, So the first meeting May second, we basically gathered
every clinician who we believed we could trust, who was
not either a manager in training or did not have
direct ties to management, and also who was on site,
because there were some people that we would have loved
to have talked to who were off site attending a

(40:34):
certification program at another location. So we gathered up everyone
we could. That started with about eight of us and
grew to ten as the night war on. We talked
about the circumstances around the firing of that coworker who
was in school. We all talked about our options for
how do we proceed. We voted unanimously to form a union,

(40:58):
and to do so under the auspices of the Industrial
Workers of the world, thanks in part to Jackie May
having contact with them and having gotten a bit of
a lowdown on like what our options looked like. Yeah,
so that was the TLDR of the first meeting. Ten people.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
That's like two thirds of the shop, like of the
total people yet.

Speaker 7 (41:21):
Yes, of the people who were active practicing clinicians there,
I think we were only missing a couple.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeap, which is really impressive. I wish we could have
got them.

Speaker 7 (41:31):
Yeah, we definitely wish we could have gotten to everybody
or had been clearer on who was actually not management. Yeah,
that's also a thing that like management will play a
lot of games with who isn't isn't union eligible? I
just want to like stop for a second and be
like getting like two thirds or more of a shop

(41:53):
to show up to the first meeting and vote to
form a union is like that might be the fastest
I've ever seen this happen. It's like you did this
in one meeting.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, speed ran the entire organizing process like one meeting.

Speaker 7 (42:09):
It's like unbelievable. We put this on Gamestown quick too. Yeah,
like I maybe I don't know. We could submit it
for a world record with new world record category any
person unanimous. As they say, nobody organizes quite as well
as a bad boss. That's true.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
You have, yeah, you have you have the double benefit
of bad boss firing people. And also like it's a
bunch of queer and trance people, is like, yes, conditions
for organizing.

Speaker 7 (42:45):
Yes, So that meeting that was May second. The next
meeting took place on May fourteenth. Now, Jackie Maye, do
you want to talk a little bit before we talk
about this meeting about some of the things that happened
in between the two meetings, like certain actions by management

(43:05):
and people who are manager adjacent. Oh right, right, yeah, so.

Speaker 6 (43:14):
Our tools in laundry sterilization tech, maybe specialist, I'm not
quite sure on the word for it. Salem is married
to our director of operations, Zeric Lee' that's no boy.
But wait, there's more. Oh no, Salem actually approached at

(43:40):
least one of our one of our union members to
ask directly if we were forming a union.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, which, by the way, you're not allowed to do.
You're not supposed to do that, but you know that's yeah, great,
incredible stuff.

Speaker 6 (43:57):
It's a lovely gray area because Huz Melam isn't management.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
But technically isn't management. Is simply married. Did you married
to management? It's technically technically illegal, but like management's really
really not supposed to be doing that.

Speaker 7 (44:17):
Yeah, I think it also bears clarifying at this point
that Xeric Lee, director of Operations and effectively the HR
Department of really Electrolysis has absolutely heard Jackie May express
positive union sentiment. M h, I forgot about that. This

(44:38):
goes back to summer of twenty twenty five. Like, there
have been multiple instances where people in management have directly
heard Jackie May talking about being pro union. Granted, Jackie
May has always been properly elliptical about it in the
presence of management. Not it's hard, but yeah, but the

(45:00):
suspicion was clearly established long ago. Yeah, that is true.
That is true. This will be important. Yeah, foreshadowing is
a literary technique, so to continue during these two weeks
in between meetings thereabouts. Yes, we did have Salem spouse

(45:21):
of the director of operations poking around asking questions. Oh boy.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, And I will say this is also a very
common management tactic of course, as part of why when
you're organizing you need to do the basic power mapping
of figuring out who is close to the bosses and
who is close to management and what ties they have,
because that dramatically affects Yeah, you two absolutely both know this,
but for the listeners, Yeah, it's very important to figure

(45:47):
out who the person who's married to management and will
report to them.

Speaker 12 (45:52):
Beans.

Speaker 6 (45:53):
Yes, so I treated as game theory. I have treated
all of this like it has been a game. Yeah,
because that's how I process it. That's that's that's all
I needed to say about that.

Speaker 7 (46:07):
Go ahead, deja. Yeah. So, to the credit of every
union member, not a single person violated op SEC on
this nobody confessed to any union organizing activity. Yeah, that
doesn't change that they continued to be suspicious in any case.

(46:29):
We had our second meeting on May fourteenth. At that meeting,
present were representatives from the IWW as well as a
representative from ILWU Local five, because at that point we
had not been formally endorsed by a union and we
wanted to get some perspectives from whoever was available to

(46:51):
speak to us, and those were the two shops that
were available to come talk to us. At that meeting,
we again voted unanimous lee to continue with organizing unionizing.
We were initially going to do it under the auspices
of ILWU Local five. However, their onboarding protocols are a

(47:15):
little bit more time consuming and involved than the IWW's
and the following Monday, which Jackie May will be talking
about in just a second. There were some circumstances that
sort of forced us to go with the union. Who
could get us on board lickety split. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (47:35):
So that Monday, I want to say, it was a midday.
I had just finished with like my I want to say,
my first two people, and was I was on my
way to the breakroom to grab a drink, and on
my way out, I see my coworker, fellow union member,
and even my housemate come out of her office flanked

(48:00):
by real you electrolysis management.

Speaker 7 (48:04):
And the last.

Speaker 6 (48:06):
Time I saw her that day was she had tears
streaming down her face and she just goes, Jackie May.
They fired me, and I responded immediately, I got I
want to say five for six of us to gather
outside of Director of Operation Zeric Lee's office and we

(48:28):
voiced our displeasure. We voiced that our coworkers should have
their jobs back. We voice that none of us feel
safe because of the working conditions. None of us feel
safe because of the way management goes about handing out
disciplinary actions, the inconsistency with the different things that they

(48:51):
will or will not punish. I just see his eyes
peeking up over his monitor, and he's like, well, I can't.
I can't discuss what's in somebody's personnel file, and also
I can't hire them back. My hands are tied. You
don't know all of the documentation on our side. So
I go, Okay, who else do we got to talk to?

(49:12):
And xeric Lee points us to President of Real You
Electrolysis on a lantry, and we go down to her
office and we say the same things, and she says,
I'm not what I'm paraphrasing. I cannot make unilateral decisions. Yes,
And I asked who else we would have to talk

(49:35):
to about this, and she said that would be a
co president, Lea La Favor and director of Operation Xeric Lee.
I turned around and right across the hallway from Onna's
office is Leah in reception. So we give them the
exact same spiel of we're not happy with this, this

(49:58):
needs to be corrected.

Speaker 7 (50:00):
None of us feel safe about this. And this was
not simply Jackie may speaking either those of us present
all voice concerns, myself included. You know, it was very
clearly not the actions of a single individual, but of
a concertive group.

Speaker 6 (50:20):
Yes, they may trust me to speak for them, but
I also know when to be quiet so that they
can voice their opinions. At that point, Desia had finished
with all of their appointments and said, Hey, I'm done
for the day. I'm going home. This isn't me giving
you an official resignation. I need to go home and

(50:41):
consider my options. And I followed suit with I'm not
giving you a resignation. You have essentially created a family
emergency for me, and now I have to go see
to that family emergency. That is important. We will come
back to that interaction, oh boy later, yes.

Speaker 7 (51:04):
I will say.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Being one of the two presidents of the company and
someone goes, don't fire our coworkers and you go, sorry,
that's not like I can't make unilateral decisions is the
most absolutely chicken shit response I've ever seen in my
entire life. Like it's like, it's like fucking it's fucking
like verdev I'm braun. Like when the rockets go up,
who cares where they come down? That's not my department.

(51:27):
It's like you are the president of the company, like I.

Speaker 7 (51:34):
What are we doing here? Like like I don't.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Make nilateral decisions, like you are the president, Like there's
like three people management.

Speaker 7 (51:45):
What are we doing here?

Speaker 1 (51:47):
I mean, I guess that's like, I mean, the thing
you're doing here is everyone in secession is trying to
be like, Ah, I actually can't do anything.

Speaker 7 (51:53):
It's like, yes, you can, you do run the business.
But I would also like to note that this conversation
held between the group of us with Hon Lantry and
Lela Favor. Very early on in that conversation, on a
Lantry said this conversation is over and walked away. However, Leah, yeah,

(52:16):
they did continue to have a conversation with us, and
was the person that we informed that we are not resigning.
Anybody who leaves today is doing so because their schedule
is clear, or they are having a family emergency. Both
of these things are acceptable reasons for leaving your shift,
and that has been established through ample precedent.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (52:41):
So that was Monday. That was Monday, May eighteenth.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
Jesus Christ, that's not even all of Monday, right, I
want to point out or include that straight from the
job site, I went home, I grabbed my other roommate,
who is at the time wasn't a part of the union,
because wasn't an employee of real EU electrolysis, but is

(53:08):
on the real EU Electrolysis hiring list.

Speaker 7 (53:12):
So is it a contractor situation?

Speaker 6 (53:14):
Not quiet, they will work with us in the future.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Oh, it just like hasn't been fully hired.

Speaker 7 (53:21):
Yeah, that's kind of the way they do things, Like
they hire people well in advance of having them actually
start work, Like most of us were hired like months
and months and months before we started actually taking shifts.

Speaker 6 (53:34):
So Monday, I go home, I pick up my housemate
who is incredible and has a special interest in documentation
and bureaucracy. She and Deja are my two documenters and
shout out, shout out Tovey because we wouldn't have been

(53:57):
able to get here without you. And we went to
the IWW over in Portland and we had a meeting
with them, and we just walked in there with the
intention of asking for help from like their solidarity network
of like, hey, we have just been put into a
hardship status at this point because of what has happened.

(54:20):
Can you help us, like with rent And I want
to say that meeting was like two or three hours long.
We talked about a lot of plans moving forward and
instead of just having support with rent. We came away
with a plan of what we would be doing next,
and Tuesday came. We had all eleven people of this

(54:47):
union meet in the parking lot and sign our petition together.
We got it photo copied, we made digital copies. We
made sure it was all safe. Our person got that
stuff filed away for us, got us some very nice
red folders to be able to keep all of these documentation,
and we were given I was given a red folder

(55:11):
labeled management and we planned to deliver this on Wednesday.
Tuesday was why Tuesday was like quiet before the storm.

Speaker 7 (55:23):
Quiet. Yeah, we were all.

Speaker 6 (55:26):
Braced that I was going to be fired because while
I wasn't swearing or rude to management, I wasn't as
even toned or level headed as I am right now.

Speaker 7 (55:41):
I was also bracing to be fired because I did
also do a lot of that speaking, and I was
extremely emotional at the time as well. Absolutely, Oh, I
do think there is one little tidbit that is important
to mention about the employee who was fired on Monday
is not only was this person union mem bur and
one of the organizers, this person also had a fully

(56:04):
like workplace sanctioned and endorsed romantic relationship with the first
person who was fired. Oh so, like again, this is
this is not like they were illicitly dating. It's like
management had a protocol, had forms and all that for
when coworkers are dating. It's in the employee handbook that
they're okay with that. Yes, and so it looks.

Speaker 13 (56:25):
So they're like moving through the Yeah, huh, that's that's
that's interesting. That's oh boy, I oh, yes, there's a
thing this an FAA guy said about. There's there's a
story of that guy who was like flying around in
a lawn chair with like balloons attached to it.

Speaker 7 (56:46):
Oh my god, I know that story.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Yeah, and then the thing about that, the news calls
the FAA guy, and the FAA guy goes, we don't
know what section of the Federal Aviation Cody's violated, but
when we figure it out, we'll prosecute with it. And like,
that has to be some kind of violation of like
like specifically targeting people in a relationship, Like there's there's

(57:09):
got to be something there, but I don't know. And admittedly,
American workplace law is a complete nightmare. But that is
extremely sketchy and shitty, And yes.

Speaker 7 (57:22):
We're going to get it sorted out.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Yeah, oh yes, yeah, I just oh boy, Jesus Christ,
that that feels not good and good lord.

Speaker 7 (57:35):
Okay, so Jackie may please continue.

Speaker 6 (57:38):
I slept real good Tuesday night into Wednesday morning. Let
me just say that I slept real good Wednesday morning.
We coordinated and we went. We went a little early. Admittedly,
I got a little that there was a little bit
of adrenaline and I kind of jumped the gun, just
just a hair. We were supposed to wait until eleven
fifty five to deliver our sign petition.

Speaker 7 (58:00):
It's okay.

Speaker 6 (58:02):
Yeah, we all had new appointments and we are all
so committed to our patients that none of this process
like interrupted patience in treatment. All of this had been
coordinated around our schedules so that people got to continue

(58:24):
getting treatment.

Speaker 7 (58:25):
That is correct. There's never been a point where a
patience treatment session has been interrupted or a patient has
been abandoned. I'm saying this because there are some accusations
from management to that effect, and I would like it
on public record that that is absolutely false and that
we can all attest to this foreshadowing more foreshadowing. Yes, boy, sorry,

(58:47):
oh boy.

Speaker 6 (58:48):
So Wednesday morning I have the privilege, I have the
backing of the crew to go serve this paperwork. We
had somebody from the union kind of send out send
out a feeler text to find out when the president
and co president would be in the building. It wouldn't

(59:09):
be until after twelve thirty. We serve that paperwork to
Director of Operation Xeric Lee. He took that at eleven
forty eight. He doesn't really give us a response. Besides,
there's a lot here. I'm going to have to read
it all thoroughly and get back to you. But we
go about our days. I have to leave site after

(59:32):
two of my appointments because I left my phone at
a gas station, so I had to leave and come back.

Speaker 7 (59:39):
It's okay, we got it. It's all good. Yay. Two
point fifty.

Speaker 6 (59:43):
One, I'm back on site. I am in my own office.
I have co President Lee la Favor and one other
member of management president, and they are firing me. They
are handing me three right up. Is christ now The
earliest of those write ups, or I should say I

(01:00:04):
guess the oldest of those write ups are from May fourth,
twenty twenty six, and it essentially is a write up
that says Jackie, you were rude to management. Now let's
talk about why. Let's talk about why that write up happened.
You see, by that point in time, we were on

(01:00:26):
the third pay period where we were all being given
paper checks.

Speaker 7 (01:00:32):
After years, yeah, years of direct deposit, like long history
of direct deposit only switched to paper checks.

Speaker 6 (01:00:39):
We were given paper checks. Those checks had been bouncing.

Speaker 7 (01:00:45):
The paychecks are bouncing. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah, that's not
just Jackie May's either.

Speaker 6 (01:00:55):
Yes, Jesus Christ, that is true. That, like I'm what
I will say is on average, per pay period, like
a handful of us had their checks bounce.

Speaker 7 (01:01:05):
That will come into play later. That's foreshadowing. Oh boy.

Speaker 6 (01:01:10):
Yeah, so my check bounced once my bank account went okay,
that's kind of sus my check bounced a second time.
I currently don't have access to a bank account because
my bank has labeled what has happened fraudulent activity, and
my bank is investigating not me, because they've now figured

(01:01:30):
out that it's not me that's doing it. I can
prove the checks are.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Bouncing, Jesus Christ. But yeah, but they still locked your
bank account. Yeah, because the other people's checks bounts. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 7 (01:01:46):
Yeah, so we should. We should note here that we
all were aware that Jackie May was locked out of
fair bank account and experiencing financial hardship to the point
where we actually did have some of our union members
like donating food to Jackie May.

Speaker 6 (01:02:06):
Solidarity Network came through for me because that kept us fed.

Speaker 7 (01:02:09):
That kept us like we were able to have gas
for that for the next like to get us to
the next payday. Essentially, this this whole.

Speaker 6 (01:02:18):
Thing would set me back like a full pay period,
Like I wouldn't get the last check cashed until we
got to the next pay period on Friday, because we
get paid every two weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Yeah, and this is something we've talked about on this
show a lot, is that, like you know what I mean.
I think most people listening to this show understand this
on an intuitive level. But it's like if your paycheck
fucking bounces, that's really fucking bad, Like yeah, holy shit,
And it's like, yeah, like obviously that's going to cause

(01:02:53):
like unbelievable like financial distress and it fucking sucks. I'm
really sorry you've been having a deal with that on
top of fucking everything else, because that's just, yeah, that
that's something that can just like completely fuck your entire life.
That's through no fault of your own. Yeah, it's literally
your boss is fucking up.

Speaker 7 (01:03:16):
Yep. God.

Speaker 6 (01:03:17):
I want to note that still to this day, I
do not have access to my bank account as far
as I know, Jesus Christ, the last week has been
really crazy and like I haven't been able to get
out to like or anything to get something new set up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
So that's just in the in the background, Like you're
not even getting paid because the checks are boundary.

Speaker 7 (01:03:37):
Yes, And Jackie May was understandably distressed over this and
expressed that frustration, and that was the cause of a
write up that was used to justify termination. Right is
that do I have that? Right, Jackie May? That is correct?

Speaker 6 (01:03:53):
That is the first light up, Christ, that right up
from May fourth, righte up is the May fourth.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
I have heard of a lot of bullshit right ups
in my time doing this job. Right up for being
rude to management because you were talking to them about
the fact that your paycheck bounced.

Speaker 7 (01:04:12):
That is the worst right up I have ever heard that.
It's like that, I like even even including.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Ones were like because obviously like people will just like
make up shit to do a write up for but
like that's like a special level of like, oh no,
this did kind of happen, but it's because they fucked up.

Speaker 7 (01:04:30):
And bounced your paycheck. Jesus Christ. So, Jackie May, I
believe you were recounting the write ups that Lela presented
to you wrote that I'm I'm just losing my mind.
That's so awful.

Speaker 6 (01:04:50):
So the second one is because they did a room inspection.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
It's really weird.

Speaker 6 (01:04:53):
They like doing room inspections when they want to remove somebody. Yeah,
so there was a room inspection and they were like,
your room's not okay, that's your statement.

Speaker 7 (01:05:04):
The third write up.

Speaker 6 (01:05:05):
Do you remember when I had a family emergency that
they caused and I left sight because they caused a
family emergency.

Speaker 7 (01:05:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:05:17):
My third and final write up was because I left
early and they tried to say, well, Jackie, you didn't
ask for our permission. Excuse me, Jackie May, you didn't
ask for our permission to leave for the day. You
just told me it was happening. And that was my
full write up.

Speaker 7 (01:05:38):
I would like to add to this that I myself
have multiple documented instances of having to leave work because
of a health or mental health emergent situation. And there
has never been a situation where I said, may I leave?
It has always been I need to leave. And I

(01:05:59):
have note noted and observed this with other employees as well.
None of these incidents has ever culminated any write up
or any sort of disciplinary action, So this is clearly
inconsistent with ample precedent for the application of disciplinary standards.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Yeah, they're just just trying to find reasons to get
three write offs, which is also like just a sign
of how well y'all are like doing your jobs that like,
because like normally employers have like random code infractions that
are always just sort of laying around that they can

(01:06:36):
pick up and be like hey, but it's like they
couldn't even like find anything. They had to just like
basically fabricate complete just like absolute nonsense.

Speaker 7 (01:06:47):
Yes, like Jesus Christ, am I recalling correctly, Jackie May
that these are the first instances of any documented disciplineplinary
action against you in your tenure at really electrolis. Yeah,
I'm a good girl.

Speaker 6 (01:07:02):
I follow the rules and I do so very very well.

Speaker 7 (01:07:07):
So and then suddenly it's like, oh, here's here's three
ride ups.

Speaker 10 (01:07:11):
Like again, like the the post.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Facto right up for the Hi, I am upset that
my paycheck bounce converce Jesus.

Speaker 7 (01:07:26):
Yeah. And so I will note that even that very
first right up did take place after we were engaged
in organizing activity, after management had demonstrated suspicion. Yeah, and
all of these right ups were delivered within a few
hours of the delivery of our petition for voluntary recognition, uh.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Huh, which I will say looks not even just suspiciously
like it looks like they have just like a giant
polar bear sitting there, and the polar bear is union retaliation,
and they've like painted a little clown face on it
and gone, this is a clown nut retaliation for forming
a union. Like no, that that is a polar bear,

(01:08:08):
Like what are we doing here? Oh god, So what
happened next, Jackie may.

Speaker 7 (01:08:24):
Oh gosh, what happened next? Well?

Speaker 6 (01:08:28):
Uh, you know, I had to clean out my office,
so I grabbed the stuff that was important to me.
I took my time. I wasn't angry. I didn't I
really didn't speak throughout much of it, because at that
point the best thing I could do is just take
my recording not say anything. And as soon as I
was out of the office, I sent a message to

(01:08:54):
the union members that said, hey, I was just fired.
They walked me out of the building. If we're going
to do something about this, we need to do something
about this now.

Speaker 7 (01:09:04):
And that was it. Two fifty one.

Speaker 6 (01:09:07):
By four oh one pm Wednesday afternoon, we had the
rest of the union organize a organized in stage a
walkout in solidarity.

Speaker 7 (01:09:21):
That's really quick. I'm gonna let Deja take over because
I was outside. Yeah. So at the point that we
found out Jackie May had been terminated, we called an
emergency vote in our secure messaging platform that we used
to coordinate things, and we voted in favor of doing

(01:09:42):
a walkout once we had each finished with our obligations
to patients. In fact, I actually had an appointment scheduled
from three fifteen to three forty five that at that
point I elected to continue that appointment, and I did so.
I provided treatment as usual, cleanup as usual, chart noting

(01:10:03):
as usual. Not a single person who engaged in this
walkout did so without completing their scheduled treatment in that
time slot. Once that appointment was finished and everything was
in compliance within my room and the rooms of those
who were not stuck in appointments, because we did have

(01:10:24):
a couple of union members who were in longer appointments
who were not able to join the walkout. Immediately, those
of us who were free did walk out, And when
we did this, we spoke directly to Lea La Favor,
who was sitting at the reception desk, and said that
we are staging a formal walkout in protest of the

(01:10:44):
wrongful termination of Jackie May, and this is not a resignation,
this is a legally protected action under the National Labor
Relations Act. Leah then said that anyone who walked out
that door must immediately surrender their keys and was no
longer welcome on the premises.

Speaker 14 (01:11:05):
Now, Jesus Christ in terms of like open retaliation for
union activity, like, oh boy.

Speaker 7 (01:11:19):
Yeah, we were, oh honestly, Mia, We were so gobsmacked
at the just absurdity that she would take such a
blatant action of retaliation that our response was, are you
sure you want to do that? And the answer was yes.

(01:11:39):
So initially we did not return our keys because we
wanted to confer with somebody from the IWW. So we
spoke with an IWW representative who advised us that their
demand for the return of the keys was a lawful
demand for the return of company property, and that we
should comply with that. So we did. We gathered up

(01:12:01):
our keys, we sent a representative back in to return them,
and at that point we were officially on strike. We
reunited with Jackie May in the parking lot. We started
strategizing about how we were going to do this. IWW
sent some folks our way to provide support. I took
off to pick up some art supplies so that we

(01:12:22):
could make signs, and just general like things like water
and snacks. Our other union members who were currently inside
treating patients, finished their appointments as scheduled and emerged when
they were no longer responsible for any patient care also
turned in their keys. At that point, we did have

(01:12:43):
an IWW representative on scene who accompanied those employees back
inside to return the keys and to confirm to Lela
Favor directly that this is not a resignation, It cannot
be construed as a resignation, that this is a protected
organizing action, and that all we were doing was complying
with a lawful demand for the return of company property.

(01:13:05):
We have plenty of witnesses to this, regardless of any
statement that they may choose to make do the contrary,
which also I just want to know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
This is the first time I've ever gotten timestamps lockouts
of the best document in one of peace I've ever seen.

Speaker 7 (01:13:23):
Y'all are very organized. Oh yeah, Oh my god, No, no,
we're not. We're not playing around. Yeah. So at that point, Jackie,
may I think you can take it from here?

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
Yeah, so real quick, I got to go back. We
got I forgot a very important detail about Monday after
after my coworker, union member and housemate was fired. In
talking to Zeric Lee, I looked him in the eyes
and I told him, don't do this. I said, please

(01:13:55):
don't do this. Please don't call my bluff on this.
Please don't make me do this. And we're here now.
I jumping back to Wednesday, I had to go off site.
I was meeting with some IWW members who were We
were mainly discussing what we were going to do next

(01:14:17):
in or what options we had in response to a
mass firing. We spent a couple hours at that. I
came away understanding a whole bunch more as to what
we're doing. I returned to the shop, and I think
I don't remember it very well because I was all

(01:14:39):
emotion and adrenaline at that point in time.

Speaker 7 (01:14:43):
What I will say is that when on.

Speaker 6 (01:14:47):
A Lantry and Leola Favor were getting in their cars
to leave site, I made sure that they heard me,
that the block heard me, that a good chunk of
downtown Washington could hear.

Speaker 7 (01:15:02):
My anger and my passion.

Speaker 6 (01:15:05):
If I don't know if you can tell in my
voice right now, but I kind of went a little
too hard.

Speaker 7 (01:15:10):
On it, and it's why I sound like I do now. Well,
that's scratchy. It happens. I'm honestly surprised I can speak
as well because there's been lots of chanting and singing
and yelling. And yeah, because we have been on the
picket line pretty much since then, every single day that
the business is open. That is correct.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Yeah, which I want to roll back for a second
and just point out that like going from yeah, we
all signed our union petitions and then we delivered it
the next day, and then that same day everyone is
on strike is astonishing.

Speaker 7 (01:15:46):
The pace of.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
It is absolutely incredible. And then also just it says
a lot about the solidarity that you all have and
all of your like you all's character that a yeah,
there's just everyone does a walkout, goes on strike and
then be Also, I think it speaks to like who

(01:16:06):
you're fighting for here, both each other and also the
fact that like all of you were so careful to
make sure that your patients got their care is. Yeah,
it is something that I think speaks It says a
lot about the kind of people all of you are,
and it says a lot about the kind of people
that management is, that this is what they're doing to

(01:16:30):
people who who both fight for each other and also
care deeply about the patients and the people that they're
taking care of.

Speaker 7 (01:16:43):
Yeah, yeah, I really do. I know Jackie May and
I are the ones who are kind of operating as
the mouthpiece, but I absolutely need to express the deepest,
most sincere appreciation for all of the other union members
because you know, not everybody involved in this has been
as just like gung ho angry, like screw up, let's

(01:17:07):
do this like this has been really difficult and nerve
racking for a lot of them, but you know what,
they have followed through and persevered, and not a single
person who started this with us has switched sides or
dropped out. Everybody has been so brave and so committed
and showing up so fiercely, And yeah, we are also

(01:17:31):
like our patients are still the most important thing. Like, yes,
we've been picketing, but we have not been turning anybody
away from crossing the picket line. We every patient that
shows up to be treated by one of the very
few people who are still on site providing care at
really Lutchles's crosses the line with our complete blessing. And

(01:17:53):
we are absolutely vocal and unequivocal about that that we
are not trying to deny anybody care and in fact,
like we are reaching out to other electrology providers out
there to you know, try to offer some options to
our patients who have chosen to forego their care out
of solidarity. You know, we really we want to get

(01:18:16):
back to work and go back to giving care or
to our people, but management has made that impossible. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
I think one of the things that comes through really
clearly here is like, yeah, how willing management is to
just hurt people, and how dedicated all of you are
to making sure that people you're caring.

Speaker 7 (01:18:40):
For get their care. And also.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
The just astonishing amount of bravery that it takes to
not only go on strike and continue to be on strike,
but also to do that in a situation where getting
fired potentially means that you have to fight off paying
the company that was employing you. Striking against twenty one
thousand dollars. That is some of the worst conditions imaginable,

(01:19:06):
and all of you did it anyways, and it's one
of the most incredible things I've ever seen.

Speaker 7 (01:19:12):
Thank you. It's almost pride. It's twenty twenty six. We're
making history here.

Speaker 6 (01:19:21):
This union is for trans people, buy, trans people to
provide care, to buy and large other trends and queer people.
And weirdly, I have to say thank you to our
two bosses because if they hadn't have made the decisions
that they made, things could have been so different. It
didn't have to be this way, is what I have

(01:19:43):
to say. It didn't have to be this way. But
they chose this. They chose this, and we have chosen
it every time, every opportunity to choose each other and
to choose our community and go no, you're not going
to bully one of us. We're not allowing us anymore.
We are sticking together.

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):
Yeah, and it's it's been really incredible seeing the way
that all of you have have taken this opportunity and
taken all of these risks to fight for each other.
There's a quote that I heard about you from managements
about why they hired a bunch of trans people that
I was wondering if you could tell the audience what
that quote is, because Jesus Christ.

Speaker 7 (01:20:22):
It's a supermajority of transition, which is super rarely almost
almost the entire workforce.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:20:29):
Yes, so this quote comes from president on a lantry
from the fourth of July company barbecue held at their
house in twenty twenty five. Oh no, with this shit,

(01:20:50):
eat grin. She says, Yeah, if you pay a trans
woman thirty dollars an hour and you give her health
insurance in a little bit of respect, she will march
through a brick wall for you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 7 (01:21:08):
Like, there's two immediate obvious angles.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
One it's like, oh, so you like knew what you like,
you knew what you were doing here, right, You were
deliberately hiring You were deliberately hiring trans people because you thought,
because you thought they were they would be easier to
exploit and that's hideous.

Speaker 7 (01:21:23):
Those are your words. Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
That's that's yeah, this is this is my analysis of
this is like, that's Jesus Christ. And then b also,
this is this is really some like your chickens are
coming home to roost. Like you you you have sown
the wind and you are now reaping the whirlwind. Because
it is true that trans people get treated like absolute shit,

(01:21:47):
and it's very nice to get a job where you're
not being treated like shit.

Speaker 7 (01:21:52):
But it's also true that if you decide.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
To fuck over a bunch of trans women, like, we
will fight for each other, and trans people and preeople
will fight for each other. And I think that's one
of the sort of beautiful things about you know, as
much as all of this absolutely fucking sucks, but like
the fact that you were able to pull this many
people off the line immediately and get a strike going,
you know, that has like almost all of the clinicians

(01:22:16):
are on strike. It's this real refutation of what management
believed about trans people, which is like, no, actually, you
can't just fucking sit there and exploit us, because we
will organize and fight.

Speaker 7 (01:22:30):
Yeah, we'll fight for each other. We will, And I
did want to stress to like the diversity of our workforce,
like we are not all trans women. We become like
a variety of backgrounds, a variety of ages, you know,
Like I don't know how old the oldest among us is,
but I know I'm forty three, and we have somebody

(01:22:50):
as young as eighteen on the workforce.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
And they're all in the picky line together. It's beautiful.
It's it's incredible. What is what is the state of
things sort of right now? And what are you fighting
for in the strike? And I guess how can people help?

Speaker 7 (01:23:08):
Big questions? Well, we are officially endorsed by the IWW.
We are now IWW Industrial Union six'. Ten the picket is.
Ongoing our fellow union members are on the picket line
right now as we are recording. This at this, point
management has elected not to bargain with. Us they have

(01:23:28):
sent a copy and paste letter to all of us
who were present for the walkout On may, twentieth basically
requesting a response and making some demonstrably materially false allegations
about the nature of the walkout and the conversations that

(01:23:49):
we're had with. Management so we have a letter from
the union that we are going to send from the
union email address and will be endorsed by all the individual.
Members but other than, that that's the only contact we've
hat with. Management so they do not seem interested in
bargaining or in resolving the. Strike they have not asked for.

(01:24:10):
Demands our demands are fairly.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
Simple having management go no contact drud to strike is not,
normal like completely literally no context for one. Email that's
like weird by management drud toh strike, Standards like usually
they're at least, communicating like sometimes they do, this but like.

Speaker 7 (01:24:30):
That's fucked by management.

Speaker 6 (01:24:32):
Standards SO i can explain why that. Is do you
remember earlier when djus said that on a lantry had
declared that this conversation was.

Speaker 7 (01:24:41):
Over it's still.

Speaker 11 (01:24:44):
Over it's still. Over oh my, god this conversation is still.
Over because that's what she tells herself when she needs
to feel in.

Speaker 7 (01:24:57):
Control so we would, assume SO i would assume that
is that is.

Speaker 6 (01:25:01):
True i've been treating lists like game, theory and that
opinion is purely. Speculative what's not speculative is our demands
reinstatement of employment of all union, members including those terminated
prior To may twentieth twenty twenty, six the expungement of
all disciplinary records for all reinstated, employees backpay for all reinstated,

(01:25:28):
employees the immediate cessation to any and all collections activities
related to the outstanding debts owed to REAL U electrolysis
by any and all union, members voluntary recognition of REAL
U Electrolysis Workers UNITED iwwiu six,' ten and the immediate

(01:25:51):
commencement of bargaining for a new labor contract wherein our
right to strike shall not. Be curtailed.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
This is like one of the THINGS that i think
about a lot in terms of just how unbelievably unreasonable management,
is being which is that those are such unbelievably reasonable and,
moderate DEMANDS like i, don't know like when you reach
the point where like paychecks are bouncing because your bosses are,
Fucking you like just just the amount of reasonableness and

(01:26:23):
maturity that all of you are showing and the just
mix of staggering incompetence and evil management.

Speaker 7 (01:26:30):
Is showing is it's.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
Really Staggering, And YEAH and i guess that leads me
to the other part, of that, which, is yeah how
can people?

Speaker 7 (01:26:41):
Support? Y'all yeah that's sort of like an ongoing thing
we're working on. Putting together we don't really have like
a web presence at the time of. This recording we
do have an email address for the union that we've
been directing, people towards and that is, all lowercase all
one Word Real union electrolysis at gmail. Dot com and

(01:27:03):
that's ELECTROLYSIS IS E L E C T R O
L Y S. I.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
S yeah, we will we will put we'll put the
email in the description and fantastic when media stuff and
like social media stuff, gets online we will we'll put
that in the.

Speaker 7 (01:27:19):
Description, too yeah, right now that is the best way to.
Reach us believe you could also reach out TO the
Iww and portland since that's so we're. Working with they
do coordinate things like strike funds and financial assistance and,
all that and so we do have their resources available,
to us and that might be the most. Expedient way,

(01:27:41):
but yeah we are working as fast as we can
to get other, things going like. Internet presence this has
all happens, so quickly. It's, astonishing also do you want
people to show up to? Your pickets and, if so where? Is? That,
oh please we.

Speaker 6 (01:27:57):
Would Love that the address for that is nine Oh
Seven harney Street, In, Vancouver Washington, Downtown. Vancouver washington i'll say,
that again it's nine Oh Seven. Harney, Street awesome i'm
out show.

Speaker 7 (01:28:12):
Your support. Thank, You yeah and the picket does take
place like at the mouth of the. PARKING lot i
know there has been some confusion from some folks who
wanted to come out as to where they. Meet us,
you know it's On On. Harney street like just listen
for the music and the cheers and you'll. Find.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
Us Yeah and i've been out to visit the picket
line and it's it's a really. Sweet time everyone there
is great and as always are bringing, Picket lines like
just just being on a picket line just in support
is like get. Incredible experience and also like you if
you can like bring food and water, and stuff it's

(01:28:52):
always something that helps.

Speaker 7 (01:28:54):
A lot and, oh, yes yeah. Thank you by, the,
WAY yes i would like you also add as far as,
support is it's not just us who, need support it's also. Our,
Patients yeah so anybody who is practicing electrolysis In The
Greater portland, vancouver area who is willing to provide care

(01:29:17):
to our displaced patients please reach out to that email
address as well so that we can direct them. To.

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
You, Awesome Well DeAsia jack You made thank you so
much for coming on. The show, AND yeah i hope
we can talk to you fairly soon after.

Speaker 7 (01:29:34):
You win, Thank you thank you for, having us thank
you for letting us tell. Our, story yeah of course.
It's incredible this is such a big help and you
you also are such an inspiration and such a treasure to.
This Community like i've been doing so good and not
thank girling over being on, your show BUT like i
have a long, time listener and so this is, just

(01:29:54):
like oh, my god oh, My god i'm talking to
Me a walt. Right NOW well i think.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
YOU KNOW a i want, TO say i think what
you're doing is significant and more inspiring than me going
on and doing. A podcast like the fact that you
you running this strike is just, fucking incredible and the
fact that you're fighting for your people and fighting for
your patience is a just unbelievable credit to all of

(01:30:22):
you as people, and too, you know like just like
to to two trans people, in general you are a
credit to. Us all thank, YOU also i want, to
say and this is more Evident something i've been saying
on the show for a. Long time but like the
people who form, unions there it's not some kind of
just like special class. Of people it's it's, just literally,

(01:30:45):
it's ordinary everyday people like you, the listener who are
the people who join these things and build these booplets
and fight.

Speaker 7 (01:30:51):
For them and.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
You know like you too can be the person who
builds builds the union you were place and fights forward
and wins. Creat end when we, work together when we,
organize together when, we fight we can. Fucking win.

Speaker 6 (01:31:09):
We, can yeah if, WE'RE done i need to get
out to the front LINE so i can get back
to hollering at these people because they.

Speaker 7 (01:31:16):
Need Hollered, App yeah i'm all fired.

Speaker 15 (01:31:19):
Up Now, SO, minneapolis hi and Welcome, to outlaw a

(01:31:47):
podcast about how the law is used to crush descent IN.

Speaker 4 (01:31:50):
The us i'm, Your. Host olive on the previous Episode,
of Outlaw On It Could, happen here we zoomed in
on legal repression of rapid respire bonders in Ice. Occupied
minneapolis on, This episode i'm Joined, By bina Joey And,
moe movement attorneys Based In, New york Illinois. And california in,

(01:32:12):
this conversation we zoom out to talk about the larger
trends and repression of RESISTANCE to ice activity across the
country and how to prepare for the long, road ahead.

Speaker 16 (01:32:22):
From, the north From, the south.

Speaker 4 (01:32:24):
From everywhere Welcome. To outlaw, to start could you all,
introduce yourselves the work you do and how it connects
to the repression OF anti ice. Protest, ACTIVITY okay.

Speaker 5 (01:32:36):
I guess we're gonna start with the. Oldest here My Name's.
JOEY mogul i am Based.

Speaker 9 (01:32:42):
IN chicago i am the Director Of movement Partnerships At Movement,
law lab which is a national organization that is very
much in the anti authoritarian fight in.

Speaker 5 (01:32:55):
The nation prior To Joining.

Speaker 9 (01:32:57):
Movement, LAW lab i was At The People's law office
for over twenty, six YEARS where i did mostly civil
rights litigation against law enforcement officials and criminal defense of
police violence survivors as well as protesters, and organizers and
at different points have been proud to represent several organizers

(01:33:18):
and many movements seeking justice. And liberation i'm also Part
Of Chicago Torture justice memorials and a board member Of
The Chicago Torture justice center and very much involved in
the movement, for, justice redress and particularly Reparations for chicago
police torture survivors during. The surge Here, IN chicago i

(01:33:43):
was proud to work with a group known As The
Black Community, care collective serving as a coordinator of their.
Legal committee and that was a group that was very
much involved in the resistance and care work that was
Happening During Operation, MIDWAIGHTLETS.

Speaker 12 (01:33:58):
Joe i don't know if you're the oldest, person HERE
but i was referred to today as A gen, x
loser if that makes you feel.

Speaker 6 (01:34:05):
Any better.

Speaker 4 (01:34:08):
My Name Is Maura.

Speaker 12 (01:34:09):
Meltzer cohen everybody CALLS. ME mo i am an attorney
in private Practice In new YORK and i work in
particular to defend people against the politically motivated abuse of the.
LEGAL system i Also Teach Federal, Indian Law professional Responsibility

(01:34:30):
and LAWYERING At cuny School of law to the world's
best and most brilliant.

Speaker 17 (01:34:36):
Law students Hi everybody bina ahfa she. HER pronouns i
also have referred to as an ELDER and i don't
know when, that happened but here.

Speaker 5 (01:34:45):
WE are.

Speaker 17 (01:34:47):
I am currently an associate at a law From in
la Called hatzel stormer RUNNIGAND where i practice civil rights
impact litigation and also where we are external general counsel
for some, movement Groups including Muslims For just Futures And
jewish Boys. For peace before going To hadzel storm and
switching to, CIVIL rights i was a state and federal

(01:35:10):
public defender for nearly, a decade a state Defender In
new york and a federal defender HERE. In la prior,
TO that i practiced international law and animal, rights law
and a lot of my motivation as well has been
to support movements and organizers fighting back against the. State
repression but that's been a big part of, my work

(01:35:31):
giving Know your, rights trainings advising people and organizers and
organizations on their rights and what they, you know what
the law says.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
You can and.

Speaker 18 (01:35:38):
Can't do from a.

Speaker 4 (01:35:39):
Radical, lens well thank you all for being here over
the past, few years from the Movement For palestinian liberation
to the many ways people are organizing against ice and.
Authoritarianism today i'm curious to start by just hearing a
little bit about what broad shifts you're tracking right now
in the state's playbook for. Crushing, DISSENT well I mean.

Speaker 9 (01:36:02):
I think that, we've seen and you're talking to people
who've represented organizers and activists who have been prosecuted by
state actors. FOR decades i think that what, we're seeing
particularly with, this administration is the weaponization of, federal charges
and we're seeing the weaponization of federal charges, en MASS

(01:36:23):
and i think this is.

Speaker 5 (01:36:23):
By design we are seeing.

Speaker 9 (01:36:25):
That With The National Security presidential memorandum number seven Issued
By president trump, and administration where they are wanting to
enlist the Use Of Joint Terrorism task force to go
after people they deem to be quote domestic, terrorists unquote
and that means they are going after individuals who they

(01:36:46):
claim have extreme viewpoints, on immigration radical, gender Ideology anti.
AMERICAN sentiment i don't believe we agree with, these determinations and,
in fact we absolutely oppose and object to.

Speaker 5 (01:36:58):
These determinations but these.

Speaker 9 (01:37:00):
Are individuals who do not agree with this administration's views
or takes, on immigration, on gender on anti, black violence and.
The rest and we see though that this administration is
actually working hand in glove with. One another so after
the issuance Of The National Security presidential memorana, over seven
we Now have panbiani IN The Us attorney's office issuing

(01:37:23):
This memorandum, december fourth, twenty five where they are basically
calling On The joint Terriors And, task force they're calling on,
federal agents and they're calling On the Department of justice
to go after organizers and activists throughout. The nation they
list twenty seven enumerated crimes and those memos things, like,
rioting looting so, called, doxing swatting conspiracies to impede or

(01:37:47):
assault law, enforcement officers destruction, of property and.

Speaker 5 (01:37:50):
The rest as well as trying to enlist the use
of the.

Speaker 9 (01:37:53):
Irs and other tax crimes to go after organizers and
organizations in. Several, ways essentially anyone who opposes this administration
is someone in the.

Speaker 4 (01:38:04):
Target sites can you tell me more about what these
federal charges are and what is new about what we're seeing?

Speaker 5 (01:38:11):
Right now so now what we've seen since the onset of,
this administration so for over a year now we have
seen the exponential rise and federal charges being lodged.

Speaker 9 (01:38:23):
AGAINST organizers i think that is very much a different
landscape than we have seen. In DECADES and i don't
want to say there hasn't been the use By the
Department of justice to bring federal charges in, the past
but not in this massive scale that we are currently
seeing it. Right now and so what we are, SEEING

(01:38:45):
is i, would say, in particular we're seeing, these assault
impeding harassing, officer charges which IS. Eighteen usc section, one
eleven being brought in scores across. The nation that is
not something we typically have. Seen before we are also
seeing charges of conspiracy to impede OFFICERS. Eighteen usc section two. Forty,

(01:39:08):
one again that's not something we generally have. Seen, BEFORE
generally i, can say, for example as someone who Was
in chicago who was part of representing protesters who were
Protesting The Democratic. National convention generally the federal government and federal.

Speaker 5 (01:39:24):
Agencies don't get involved in protest.

Speaker 9 (01:39:26):
Related activity but for arson cases prior To the, trump
administration that playbook is out and this new playbook. Is
in so we are absolutely seeing the federal government stepping
in and engaging in this policing and persecution of protesters
and organizers in a way that we have not. Seen before,
that said there's a silver lining here is the federal

(01:39:50):
government is overreaching in so many of, these cases and
many of these charges are. Being dismissed many of these
charges are being DECLINED by, us attorneys and there have
been several not guilty VERDICTS in la as well As
in chicago as Well. As miami, and FURTHER what i think,
is STRIKING and i think that this is really unheard

(01:40:11):
of for criminal defense attorneys, in particular is we're actually
seeing grand juries refusing to indict in.

Speaker 5 (01:40:17):
These cases and given.

Speaker 9 (01:40:19):
How biased grand jury, investigations go how one sided, they
are to have the grand juries come back and not
return an indictment really is showing that people are resisting
and they are not buying the government's slogan and lines
and playbook, on this and they, are, saying no we're
not going to put up. With this so while on
the one hand it's a whole, new landscape we're also

(01:40:42):
seeing the counterpart of, people resisting and that includes in the.

Speaker 4 (01:40:45):
Federal courts if the term grand jury is new, to
you it's basically a special jury in federal criminal cases
that is appointed to decide if there's enough evidence to
bring the official, criminal charge the indictment against, the defendant
but they're super rigged against. The defendant basically they, always
indict and often the grand jury process is just an

(01:41:09):
information gathering tool for, the government especially in, movement cases
people get subpoena to testify before grand jury's in a
way that often seems just like a phishing expedition because
whatever they say can be used, against them and only
the prosecution gets to present evidence to the. Grand jury
there's a lot more to, say there but check out

(01:41:30):
the show Notes and i'll link some really important conversations
and resources about.

Speaker 12 (01:41:34):
GRAND jury's i think that's all, Exactly, right joey but
it isn't one hundred percent. New right What the trump
administration is doing is that they are able To Police
first amendment, protected, identities beliefs and associations by trying to define, those,

(01:41:55):
beliefs identities and associations. As terrorists and so there's a
whole apparatus for fighting terrorism that they then can, pull
in draw upon resources they, can use and legal authorities
that they, can exercise as long as the thing that

(01:42:18):
they're policing is something that can be. Called, terrorism well
by defining all of these things, as terrorism that lets
them sort of trigger all of these resources. And authorities
those resources and authorities were not put in place by.

(01:42:38):
This administration they were put In place post nine.

Speaker 19 (01:42:43):
To eleven they were put in Place By.

Speaker 12 (01:42:46):
Barack obama they were put in Place By, joe. Biden
right and so this is not a problem With the.
Trump administration this is a problem with the. Surveillance state
this is a problem with consolidating federal police authority and
making it easier and easier for the federal law enforcement

(01:43:09):
apparatus to assert jurisdiction over what we would normally understand
to be state level matters such as garden.

Speaker 19 (01:43:20):
Variety protest and so the shift.

Speaker 12 (01:43:23):
Is not one of kind as much as it is
a shift in scope where we're seeing the federal, government
TREATING as, i said garden variety protest conduct as though
it is militant. Revolutionary, ACTION now i.

Speaker 9 (01:43:42):
Totally agree, with that and to underscore, your point not
a single law has needed to. Be passed there's been
no legislation that's needed to be changed in order to
effectuate these, prosecutions whatsoever let alone this.

Speaker 5 (01:43:55):
Immigration enforcement this all.

Speaker 9 (01:43:57):
Pre Existed the trump administrationmistration hasn't passed the.

Speaker 5 (01:44:01):
Sing LAW so i absolutely agree.

Speaker 9 (01:44:02):
With you i'm just saying, you're right the garden variety
level of prosecutions we, haven't seen.

Speaker 5 (01:44:06):
And it's the scale.

Speaker 9 (01:44:08):
Of this, but again we, absolutely know, for Example the
biden administration Pursued The face act against Individuals in florida
regarding one of these. False clinics, you know it's not
that these tools weren't. USED before i just think the
scope and scale is not what.

Speaker 5 (01:44:25):
We've, seen YEAH and i.

Speaker 12 (01:44:26):
Totally AGREE and i think it's important to note that
the fact that the law hasn't changed, is important not
simply because the laws already existed to bring, these prosecutions
but because the law actually, hasn't changed which Means The
first amendment remains, in effect which means that a lot of,

(01:44:48):
these prosecutions as you, Pointed, out joey are going nowhere
because they actually can't really be sustained under the.

Speaker 17 (01:44:57):
Current, regime yeah the scale and the aggressiveness and, THE
scope i think is something we haven't really dealt, with before.

Speaker 18 (01:45:05):
You know in terms of it being.

Speaker 17 (01:45:07):
NOT new, i mean we know the founding of, this
country and it's not a. Just SYSTEM and i think
if we just also start, from that that is the
system that protects property and white nationalism and violence and power,
and CAPITALISM then i think we can sort of like
see where these powers originated from and where the structure.
Originated from and we've also seen that used against, you

(01:45:27):
know radical, black activists.

Speaker 18 (01:45:29):
Against The american. Indian movement.

Speaker 17 (01:45:32):
You know so like a lot of these things that we're,
seeing now we're tested on communities, of color, you know
prior to, seeing okay, what works what, doesn't work and
then bringing THIS surge i think to, our communities, YOU
know i think in addition to, YOU know I think
majory was saying About The, face act that is something
we haven't really seen prosecutions Under The face, act before
right Because The face act is actually technically to protect

(01:45:54):
access to.

Speaker 18 (01:45:55):
Abortion CLINICS and i think that one thing that.

Speaker 17 (01:45:57):
This administration is doing is finding creative different ways to
manipulate the laws that are already terrible to go after
folks in a way that we haven't. Seen before like mo,
was saying like so much of the work that we've
done defending protesters, and movements a lot of it. Is stayed,
of course, you know some has always, been federal but
a lot is. Usually state and to then see these

(01:46:19):
federal not only prosecutions For The face, ACT word, i
know we'll get into the material support prosecutions but also like,
civil LITIGATION which i think is something we've never, not
never but really we're not prepared for or dealt with
as a movement before these massive civil pieces of litigation
that while on the one hand are brought mostly by
private Actors like, zionist actors we know that they're really

(01:46:40):
coordinated by and with the administration because then the administration
has mimicked bringing these same lawsuits against these very same
activists for the same causes when we know that they're,
in coordination AND so i think that's also really important
to know is that the, civil component, you know. The movement,
of course, like criminals where we've always been the most
concerned is someone liberty is on, the lines of life

(01:47:01):
is on.

Speaker 19 (01:47:02):
The line but.

Speaker 17 (01:47:02):
Civil is also like this slow death right of time
and money and just draining ORGANIZATIONS that i think is
something that we've now had to.

Speaker 4 (01:47:11):
Really grasp katskill follow, Up, question binat can you break
down for people who are listening and really not in the,
legal world why a civil case impacts, someone's life why
civil cases against activists are really disruptive. To, movements sure
there are.

Speaker 17 (01:47:28):
Many ways so when a civil, CASE lands, i mean
first you don't have the right to free counsel like
you do with a. Criminal case it's not guaranteed in.
The constitution you're not facing prison time, and incarceration so
you're not. Guaranteed that so one you have to find
either free counsel or you can pay for someone to.
Defend you and when the, lawsuit lands there's so many things.

(01:47:49):
That happen there's an affirmative obligation, for you as the
one who's, being sued to preserve any evidence that could
be relevant to. The case that is completely antithetical to
a lot of.

Speaker 18 (01:48:00):
Movements do we don't like save documents and then turn
them over to the.

Speaker 17 (01:48:03):
Other side we're going to, you know keep our work
internal and our organizing and who we. Work with and
civil lawsuits really make that really difficult because you have
to turn over discovery if it gets that far in,
the case and you can't, you know, delete things and
you can't let things get deleted luck, on signal and if,
you know you can, be sanctioned and there's all these
things that could happen if they find out that, that

(01:48:24):
happened and then you're, subject to, you know other things like,
being deposed, being questioned by the, other side a lot
things you don't want to talk about and that are
really antithetical to what we what, we do and these
cases can go on for years, and years and even if,
you win there can, be appeals there can, you know
there's there's just so much that doesn't feel like it
ever ends with, civil litigation and so much where people,

(01:48:48):
you know even just have moved on in, their Lives
like i've moved a, different city you have a different,
job now but you're still always tied back to this.
Civil case and there's no sort of like right to
a speedy trial in a, civil case right that's that's
for a. Criminal case so all of, this Stuff and
i'm sure there's many Other things i'm not mentioning that
you have to go through or that impact your life
once you're being, civilly soon but a lot, of that,

(01:49:08):
you know it's it's not again like things.

Speaker 18 (01:49:10):
That we have really dealt with as a.

Speaker 17 (01:49:12):
Movement before and, you know, really importantly people don't have
the money to pay for lawyers for years and years,
and years and it's really expensive to do civil litigation and.
Civil defense it goes. On forever you have to do
so many different pieces of discovery and, you know motions
and like all of that is so much, more involved
and IT really i think part of the tactic is to.

(01:49:34):
Bankrupt organizations that's a big part of why these actors
are bringing these.

Speaker 18 (01:49:37):
CIVIL suits.

Speaker 12 (01:49:49):
I just want to intervene strategically at this moment to
say that Everything that Joey and bina are talking about
is true and critical, and important and we need to
be so alert to the way that these federal apparatuses are.

Speaker 19 (01:50:09):
Being deployed against.

Speaker 12 (01:50:10):
Our COMMUNITIES but i also want to say that one
of the things we have seen over the last couple
of YEARS that i think is so important and we
have to hang on to for, dear life is that when,
we fight. We win and so what we're starting to,
see now, you know we just saw some of my

(01:50:34):
impressive and beloved Colleagues At counity School of law are
litigating a case right now in the federal Courts About
columbia university's repression of. Student activists and what we're seeing
is the court coming back with these rulings that Say
anti zionism is not. Hate Speech, columbia university acting at

(01:50:57):
the behest of the executive makes them subject to the
constraints Of The. First amendment it's potentially violative Of The
first amendment to discipline students for engaging in. Speech right
we're seeing people fight these, federal cases both criminal, and civil.
And Winning as, joey mentioned we're seeing grand juries declining

(01:51:19):
to issue indictments or to authorize prosecutors to. Issue INDICTMENTS
so i do want, to say, you know we really
do see the power of communities taking on that, legal
battle fighting with, you know our, community movement legal people
and meeting that challenge. Head ON and, i think as

(01:51:42):
devastating and exhausting as, it is and as terrible as
the consequences and the risks, REALLY are i do want
to say we do see people having a lot, of
courage marshaling a lot of resources and energy and.

Speaker 19 (01:51:59):
Winning reliably.

Speaker 4 (01:52:02):
Thank YOU and, I know joey you started talking a
little bit about what we've been seeing broadly across the
country and how the state has been repressing specifically anti.
ICE activity i know you've been Based in chicago and
particularly tuned into what's, happening there and it's been Similar,
in minneapolis where it's been a lot OF eighteen usc

(01:52:23):
one eleven cases, federal charges and part of what is
coming up is just unpreparedness for movements to meet and
defend against these kinds. Of charges and also similar vein
to THE question i, just asked why it matters for
people's lives and form of movements that it's federal charges
coming down instead of STATE.

Speaker 17 (01:52:44):
Charges FINA when i transitioned from state to, federal defense
my reaction, Was, like state it's always horrible just being
in the criminal system. And fighting it's Very like David,
And GOLIATH but i FELT like i had a more
of a fighting chance in. State COURT when i got.
To federal it was shocking how much worse it felt for,

(01:53:05):
my clients how restricted you are in.

Speaker 18 (01:53:09):
A state it.

Speaker 17 (01:53:09):
Really feels like when you're doing, a trial you have
the power to kind of run. The show right, of
course a judge can like shoot down many motions, for
experts for like for, you know doing, certain defenses but
federal is so much more constrained in, my experience where
federal judges want to have to so much, more POWER
and I think i wasn't also just didn't appreciate how
much more power federal judges had and how much more

(01:53:31):
they were willing to. Wield it BUT also i think
in terms of the charges, are heavier plea barreeting and
sentencing is so much harder.

Speaker 18 (01:53:38):
And heavier you're. Very restricted even though the.

Speaker 17 (01:53:40):
Sentencing guidelines, for instance are no, longer mandatory that's what
everyone judges and prosecutors still mostly. Go by there's so
many more. Mandatory minimums it's so easy to catch a federal,
charge too, you know things like even just, gun possession
right because a gun might have been Manufactured in texas
and then Bought, in california which most people wouldn't is a,
federal offense but it can be. Charged federally just all of,

(01:54:04):
THOSE factors i THINK just i realized how much harder
it was in federal court for my clients to have a.
Fighting chance but you know that, BEING said i don't
mean to make states sound like it's this like set,
of gold like, oh great and we're.

Speaker 18 (01:54:15):
Going to do whatever we want. In state not.

Speaker 17 (01:54:17):
AT all i FELT like i could. FIGHT more i
had more leeway to fight. In state, You KNOW federal
i think is a whole is a whole. Other animal
that was a.

Speaker 4 (01:54:26):
Great answer and if either of you don't have anything
more pressing TO add i would turn us back to
just the question of if there's anything else we wanted
to talk about trends in charging across the country of anti. Ice,
PROTEST well.

Speaker 7 (01:54:41):
I know i.

Speaker 9 (01:54:41):
JUST don't I think i want to echo Something that moways,
talked About and i'm not trying to leave, it OUT
but i do think the resistance this is, so AMAZING
and i think that, you know essentially people are being
Arrested For first, amendment activity whether it's it's VIDEO recording
ICE and cbp, agents actions whether it's foul, going officers
whether it's announcing their presence. With whistles we've seen, People

(01:55:05):
arrested we've seen, people detain we've seen. People interrogated sometimes,
they're charged sometimes. They're NOT but i think what's striking
is we've seen so many of these cases, fall apart
and to, be honest But For, Prairie, land texas which is,
devastating loss the federal government has lost in many of.
These cases they've been able to charge or the cases have,

(01:55:28):
been dismissed but even the ones that have gone.

Speaker 5 (01:55:30):
To trial they.

Speaker 9 (01:55:31):
Have lost and that is not SOMETHING that i think
we're used to seeing in federal. Criminal, cases generally when
someone's charged in federal criminal court is being and, was explaining,
you know so few of the cases go to trial
because so many people need to take a, plea bargain
and the idea that you're going to get to go
to trial and win seems. Very slim that landscape seems

(01:55:55):
to be changing, as well AND so i think what
we are seeing in this moment is the people, are
resisting they are continuing to do This Important first, amendment
work and they are not, being intimidated they are not.
Being DETERRED and, i think, you know all of you
and your neighbors and your friends and Folks in minnesota
have proven that, to us AND so i think we're

(01:56:17):
going to continue to see this type of work. Go
on i'm not seeing this level of surges at this
point Ongoing. POST minnesota i don't know if we're going
to see a return to this prior to. THE election
i don't know if we're going to see this If
The insurrection act, Is invoked but RIGHT now i don't
see this ongoing surge activity in terms of.

Speaker 5 (01:56:39):
Immigration enforcement it's an.

Speaker 4 (01:56:41):
Interesting point the thing you hear about federal criminal cases
is like the federal government can be investigating somebody, for
years so by the time that they bring, the charges
they have such a strong case against them it makes
it impossible to win versus what at least we've Seen
in minnesota where it felt like some of these cases
were being brought like pretty quickly and kind, of sloppily

(01:57:02):
which is just a little bit of a different maybe
a little bit more hopeful for people, in movements even
though there's still are federal judges and procedural limitations that
make federal cases scarier and worse to go. Through, oftentimes
now for a depressing thing that, is happening let's talk
about prairieland the recent trial and guilty verdict that recently.

(01:57:25):
Came down i'd love to hear how you all are
thinking about this case and what it means for movements.

Speaker 12 (01:57:32):
GOING forward i think, right now the defense just filed post.
Trial briefing i've looked at some, of IT and i
think there are a lot of really, strong arguments, you
know for setting aside, the verdict and, you know whether
or not the judge agrees with me is of course
not a, foregone conclusion but there are a lot of

(01:57:56):
really strong, legal arguments and this really. Isn't over there's
so much post trial and post, conviction relief so many
appeals that remained to, be done and so much support
that can, be offered and so much solidarity that can.

Speaker 19 (01:58:13):
BE offered i think that this case.

Speaker 12 (01:58:16):
Was unusual it was a departure from what we would
typically see in that so many people got pulled into
this prosecution under sort of a, conspiracy, theory right a
theory that all of the people at what was a
really quotitian sort of noise demo in front OF a

(01:58:38):
ic detention facility somehow spontaneously became a conspiracy to do.
SERIOUS violence i think this is a little bit like
the federal government trying to take a second bite at
the apple that they took a run At after trump's
first inauguration when they tried to prosecute like almost three

(01:59:02):
hundred people for conspiracy on the basis that they were
all dressed in black block and in this environment politically
and in that Jurisdiction, in texas it seems like that
theory had legs in a way that it DIDN'T. In
dc so one of the things that happened in the

(01:59:24):
j twenty case was that the prosecution withheld a bunch of,
exculpatory evidence and based ON some foya disclosures that a,
journalist obtained it looks like actually a very similar thing
may have happened Here With, prairie land where the prosecution

(01:59:45):
may have withheld evidence that would be favorable to.

Speaker 19 (01:59:49):
The defense and That's called.

Speaker 12 (01:59:52):
Brady material based On A supreme court case about having
to turn over information and evidence that would tend to
undermine the prosecution or that would be favorable to someone facing.
Criminal charges all of that kind, of information if it's
in the custody or control of, law enforcement has to

(02:00:13):
be disclosed to the defendants and to. Defense counsel and
it appears that there is some material that would fit
that bill that was not turned over to the prairieland
defendants or. Their attorneys and so you know that as
well as an extremely important, argument against, you know letting this,

(02:00:33):
conviction stand and the, trial itself there were just a lot.
Of irregularities not only was this an, unusual prosecution but
it was characterized. By irregularities very, early on the judge
declared a mistrial on the basis OF a t shirt
that one of the defense attorneys was. Wearing right there

(02:00:54):
seemed to be a lot of conflict among. The jurors
there were all kinds of inconsistent statements among the witnesses for.

Speaker 20 (02:01:03):
The.

Speaker 12 (02:01:03):
Prosecution right so there's all kinds of things that happen
during this trial that do give me a certain amount
of Hope That prairie land is the exception and not.
The rule, YOU know i think the government is, boundary
Testing but i'm not convinced that they're going to find

(02:01:25):
that this is an effective approach to prosecuting, protest although
OF course i want to be, very clear it's been
devastating for.

Speaker 4 (02:01:35):
THIS community i hear that there's some uncertainty about the
long term impacts, Of this and with that, in mind
is there anything any of you just want to add
what you think movements should be paying attention to here. Going,
forward also it's connection to the expansion of the fundamentally

(02:01:56):
racist or on terror, legal regime and it's turn towards
activist communities in.

Speaker 17 (02:02:02):
NEW ways i can jump in, And start i'm really
glad you brought up the War on terror as part
of the history.

Speaker 18 (02:02:10):
Of this and, YOU know I think i mentioned.

Speaker 17 (02:02:11):
Previously a lot of these tactics that, we see like we've,
all said are, not new and much of it has
been tested on communities, of color the way that war
weapons are tested on the battlefield and then brought to
our domestic police, forces here same thing, with, Tactics right
and so the war on terror like primarily Against the
muslim community In the muslim world a lot Of non

(02:02:32):
arab Countries like Afghanistan, and pakistan, you know, of course
is a, racist endeavor but it does sort of like
give us a picture of the larger sort of like
colonial project of what, you know what. We're FACING but
i think there's also just a lot then that we
can take from history and take to our movements and
LEARNED from, i think while, it's DEVASTATING and i AGREE
with moa Think the prairie, line conviction there's a lot

(02:02:54):
of bases, for appeal including being prohibited from putting on
a self defense argument or friends of, OTHERS argument i
think we can learn a lot from the way that
our movements were targeted in, this, way right where like,
you know a lot of it was from text messages,
in SIGNAL and i think it's just like it's also
a really important thing To note while signals are very

(02:03:14):
important app, to communicate it's, not, bulletproof right and it's
only as secure as you, Make it and it is
still something that's, in writing AND so I think i
always try to remind, folks like if you can open
your phone right now and you can see your, signal
messages someone else, can't. Do RIGHT so i think a
lot of people are under the impression that is. Completely
BULLETPROOF and i think it's also calls the, question, of like,

(02:03:37):
you know how, we organize and also like does everything
we do need to.

Speaker 18 (02:03:40):
Go and text?

Speaker 17 (02:03:41):
Or writing, you know is there more value to like
actually talking, with people because a lot of things that
were SAID casually i think in writing look much worse
and much more serious than if you would just have
a conversation talking, ideas through which again is an elder
idea in the nineties and we didn't have.

Speaker 12 (02:03:56):
CELL phones i want to kind of piggyback on some
thing you started, to say which is you said, these
tactics these strategies have been tested on communities, of COLOR
and i think the significance of, that, statement like we
can't overestimate how important it is to, understand that and,

(02:04:17):
you know you can watch it happening in. REAL time,
i mean obviously we've seen this kind of state repression
right since the days of, like, abolitionists right but we
saw it really becoming very salient During the nixon administration,
and thereafter and, you Know The Black panther Party And

(02:04:38):
Black liberation army were subjected. To this black communities were
then subjected, to This And puerto rican independence communities were subjected,
to this and you can see it all the way through,
the eighties even with like the so called, gang legislation
right targeting of quote.

Speaker 4 (02:04:53):
Gang activity when you say these communities have been subjected,
to this what do? You mean what's?

Speaker 12 (02:04:58):
The, this sorry have been subjected to have been targeted
and surveiled and criminalized by the state for what we
would understand To Be first amendment, protected, identities, beliefs associations, and,

(02:05:20):
Activities right and so people have been targeted for surveillance
and criminalization on the basis of their, political beliefs on
the basis of their associations, and activities in a way
that we now see being recuperated against more explicitly political.

(02:05:43):
Protest movements and we saw this During The no dapple
Movement At, standing rock we saw the revival of a
federal charge called.

Speaker 19 (02:05:53):
CIVIL disorder i.

Speaker 12 (02:05:55):
Think the last time it had been used had been
during the Standoff at wounded me in nineteen.

Speaker 5 (02:06:00):
Seventy, four right.

Speaker 12 (02:06:02):
It was like a federal charge that seems like it
was only used against people struggling for. Indigenous sovereignty and
then we saw it being used again During the floyd
uprisings in, twenty twenty and that was the first time
we saw it really being used against people who were

(02:06:22):
not explicitly involved in struggles for.

Speaker 17 (02:06:25):
Indigenous sovereignty to give like, an example, you know in
terms of like what strategies are tested On the muslim
community or communities. Of color the case that a lot
of us within the movement at least are still haunted
by is Against The Holy land foundation And The Holy, land,
Five right and it's shocking now to realize how many
people outside of our circles don't actually really know about

(02:06:47):
that case or even like what material. SUPPORT is i
think only when it became not much bigger and being
weaponized in more creative ways are people sort.

Speaker 18 (02:06:56):
Of realizing but, you know back for back.

Speaker 17 (02:06:59):
In the day When The Holy land foundation and founders
were targeted and, then convicted and their convictions were upheld
for just raising money for families in. A gaza it
was so devastating and crushing to communities, into organizing but
it really DIDN'T get i think the broad attention that it,
should have right or this other targeting of like we're
using informants In the muslim community just going back, through

(02:07:21):
HISTORY and i think we can learn from. Them NOW but,
i think, you know if we had had more attention
on those cases than what, you know communities of color were,
GOING through i think there's a lot we can learn
from or could have organized. Stronger against having now seen
what is doing to communities, OF.

Speaker 9 (02:07:38):
Color i think if there's a lesson for us to
learn from this is that, you know post nine, to
eleven there was this massive Persecution of muslim communities and
we really saw this apparatus of the material support for
terrorism being used against individuals and as, you say being
not often in isolation. Without support and part of that's
because when you get charged with material support of, you

(02:08:00):
know not only are you facing massive criminal, like sentencing
but you know your organization is being, Taken down you're
getting debateked you cannot you know be able to hold,
financial funds and what happens is people don't want to
get ensnared in that. Criminal prosecution that often people don't

(02:08:21):
come out and make those. Solidarity statements you become. Essentially
RADIOACTIVE and, i think, you Know what i'm hopeful is
that we can find new ways to resist this material
support for, terrorism apparatus which is being wielded in WAYS
that i think are unjust and unfair and illegal.

Speaker 5 (02:08:39):
And WRONG and i hope.

Speaker 9 (02:08:40):
There's ways that we can think about how we're going to,
counter that whether it's In The, Prairie land texas case
or in other cases. AS well i think we need
to get back to the roots of, that law and
we need to think about really who's, it serving who's,
it protecting and who is, it destroying so that we
can really rectify the harms that have come.

Speaker 7 (02:08:57):
From it.

Speaker 4 (02:09:09):
Material support for terrorism chargers are not the only uncommon
charges for seeing being brought against anti ice protesters Here.
In minneapolis we've also seen the use Of The face
act and federal threat and cyber. Stocking charges just, to
note the use Of The face act is Specifically Against

(02:09:29):
Black lives matter protesters here who staged a protest in,
a CHURCH and i don't think expected to have this
random act that nobody knew existed come out and now
they're facing super. Serious charges i'd love just for listeners
to understand a little bit what these. Charges are if
there's other unusual charges you've seen around, the country what

(02:09:51):
do people actually need to understand? About them people who
are going out. To protest how much is it important
to know about these different things that can.

Speaker 7 (02:10:00):
Pop up So The.

Speaker 12 (02:10:02):
Face act is a piece of legislation that initially was
being pushed for by reproductive, justice groups and it was
supposed to criminalize people interfering with folks who were attempting
to access reproductive health care because at the time that

(02:10:23):
it was being, lobbied for there was a pretty active,
pro life, you know anti choice movement that was physically
making it difficult for people who are seeking reproductive healthcare
to gain access. To clinics and at, the time people

(02:10:47):
who work in criminal defense and who work with criminalized populations, Were,
like hey this legislation is going to be mobilized against
other kinds, of protesters and it's probably going to be
primarily dangerous to people who are perceived as antagonistic to, State.

Speaker 19 (02:11:07):
Interests and what do?

Speaker 12 (02:11:10):
You know that is what has happened because one of,
the things one of the concessions that was made in
order to get that piece of, legislation passed, was that
in addition to criminalizing obstructing access to reproductive, health clinics
it also criminalized obstructing access to so called places of

(02:11:33):
worship for specifically people who are attempting to access those
places in order to Engage In first amendment protected. Religious
expression so now one of the things we're seeing is
people using their churches or their synagogues to do things

(02:11:57):
like have political meetings that are not particularly, religious meetings
or to do things like sell real Estate in palestine
to which they do not have title and cannot.

Speaker 19 (02:12:11):
Lawfully sell and then when.

Speaker 12 (02:12:13):
People show up to protest, those activities the federal government
tries to charge them with violations Of The face act.

Speaker 4 (02:12:24):
In like the. Simplest way what do people need? To,
know like there's one outcome here that, everyone's like oh,
MY god i didn't know the protesting in a church
could get me federal charges for like handing out some
flyers and using. A megaphone what ELSE don't? I know about,
other risks the random acts that can. Come up how
do you talk to people about that who are thinking about. Taking,

(02:12:45):
ACTION yeah.

Speaker 9 (02:12:46):
I think that that's, the again the changing landscape here
and seeing the exponential rise of. FEDERAL charges i think
that when organizers are thinking about the actions, THEY'RE pursuing
i think they need to talk to attorneys and legal
workers and others who have both an understanding of what
their local laws and state, laws are but what the
federal laws are. As well, AND again i think that's

(02:13:07):
just a different changing of.

Speaker 5 (02:13:08):
THE landscape i do want, to say.

Speaker 9 (02:13:10):
You know there's a lot of important organizing that it
has happened in churches and synagogues, and TEMPLES and i
don't want to, Discount THAT but i do also want
TO say i think again we're seeing a misuse of,
this law.

Speaker 5 (02:13:25):
Particularly The, face act and, it's very.

Speaker 9 (02:13:27):
Very scary but, YOU know i think that there are
some really incredible lawyers and Organizers in MINNESOTA who i
think are fears and who are going to fight this to,
the END and i have hoped that they will come. Out,
unscathed YEAH.

Speaker 12 (02:13:43):
And i do want to clarify it isn't just protesting at.
A church they have to be able to allege that
people were by force or threat, of force or by,
physical obstruction, intentionally, injuring intimidating in interfear with people who
are trying to get healthcare or people who are trying.

(02:14:04):
To worship so it isn't simply having a protest at
a place. Of worship That Remains first amendment. PROTECTED behavior
i think in addition With The, face act it has a.
Civil component so again like, material support it also has a,
civil component and many people are getting civilly sued and
so a lot Of these zionist groups have also brought

(02:14:26):
suits based On The face act for people protesting the
illegal Sale of palestinian land inside a synagogue and that's
a breach international law and so many. Other crimes and
just also to think of just the disgusting use of,
this law and you think of sort of the historical
targeting of black churches and like still to, this day
like it's just such a slap in. The face, but

(02:14:49):
REGARDLESS but i think also alive to your, question, about
yeah like a lot of this can catch people off
CARD like i didn't what, YOU know i, didn't know
and even, you know even if, they know they really,
can't prove, you know access that they might still try
to either sue you or. PROSECUTE you i think the
thing is like none of us are ever going to
know all the laws that are on the books and
the way that they might creatively try to. Use, them so,

(02:15:11):
YOU know i don't want people to get paralynes into
not doing anything because it's, it is, you. Know scary
there's just like you, don't know, you know what what
laws are out there that can, be used you know
in some way now you know a new way. Against
YOU but i Think what joey and mo both have
said is right about connecting to lawyers and, legal workers
just being tight on, our organizing knowing what our, rights

(02:15:33):
are and knowing when you what to.

Speaker 17 (02:15:34):
Do when you encounter, law enforcement which is nothing and.
Say nothing, You know like all OF that i think is,
like hopefully like universally at least like minimizes the harm
that can happen.

Speaker 18 (02:15:43):
To you it's, not bulletproof right as, we know it's
not meant.

Speaker 17 (02:15:46):
To BE but, i, think like, YOU know i don't
want folks to like be like AND now i DON'T,
know x like this other random thing, you know could
be brought, against me and that may happen and continue,
to happen but that's what we, all do right like
sort of like with this message, of hope is that
what we do is, we fight and like we, have
fought like, State repression like our answers, have thought, State
repression we're not going. To stop they're going to, keep

(02:16:07):
adapting and so. Are we this resistance is not going,
to stop even if we have to figure out a
new way to resist based on what.

Speaker 4 (02:16:14):
Comes next to ask, you all as a final question
with your repression forecasting hats on anything you want to
add about how movements can prepare to meet this repression
that is already happening and that which is.

Speaker 12 (02:16:29):
TO come i can't see, the FUTURE as i tell
my clients, EVERY day i can't see.

Speaker 19 (02:16:37):
THE future i am but, a lawyer not.

Speaker 12 (02:16:40):
A WIZARD what i can tell you is we know
a lot about what the state has done in, the
past and we have a lot of good models to.
Look to we have a rich ancestry of resistance and of,
movement lawyering of movement lawyers who know how to work

(02:17:02):
in community with people who are doing the. Heavy lifting
we have made it this Far as, Bina said we're
just going to continue. To FIGHT and i do hold
out a lot, of hope NOT because i have any
faith in the law itself or believe that justice is

(02:17:26):
on the table in, our courts but because we are
actually really good, at solidarity and because we have over
a century of evidence that solidarity is not just good for,
our communities it's.

Speaker 19 (02:17:42):
Legally effective. That's it don't talk.

Speaker 17 (02:17:45):
TO cops i might go with the cheesy answer, ROUND
that i think what communities and movements can do to
prepare is a lot, of this right is like coming together,
and strategizing especially amongst, the lawyers so uplifting what mo
said is like showing solidarity with communities and lawyers.

Speaker 18 (02:18:03):
Showing UP but i, think also And like Joey.

Speaker 17 (02:18:06):
And moly really model this for me as well as
lawyers showing up with each other and like, working together
because it is a lonely fight a lot of times
being a lawyer when you're not in a circle of
solidarity or folks of radical politics or who like also
believe in including each other, in fighting, you know and doing,
this work and that is always going to be a,

(02:18:26):
losing fight right if you're doing it. By yourself you're
not doing it with each other and with the communities
and with other. Radical lawyers that's not what, we, Do
right that's also like not the point of. This work
it's like one sole lawyer to fight it.

Speaker 18 (02:18:38):
And win it's.

Speaker 17 (02:18:38):
About like us doing, it collectively and that's the way that.
We win and, you know just uplifting like, You three
like just even having this Conversation and Joey and mo
for all the work that you do and the work
that you. Do inclusively, you know that like gives me
HOPE because I know i've had like many.

Speaker 18 (02:18:55):
Every, day look i just SIT and i feel. Like alone,
i'm like.

Speaker 17 (02:18:57):
Oh, My GOD like i have to first with the method.
OF hope i have to find some way to. Keep
going it's, really hard And sometimes i'm JUST like i.
Don't know and then and then we have these conversations
and like, all, right yeah like we have those moments
we get, you know like we, feel defeated but like
we have, each other, you know and like our movements
didn't come, this far, you know our ancestors didn't come

(02:19:18):
this far for us to.

Speaker 18 (02:19:20):
Give, Up, NOW yeah.

Speaker 9 (02:19:21):
I think i would just echo What both bina and mo.
HAVE said, i, mean, obviously black indigenous and other communities
of color have faced fascism and authoritarianism before and have resisted.
And survived this is not the first time in this
country we've, seen this and it's likely not.

Speaker 5 (02:19:39):
Going to be.

Speaker 9 (02:19:39):
The LAST but i, THINK, again i, YOU know i would,
say that, you Know As marian, kama says, you know
hope is, a discipline and we have to keep pouring
into hope and we can't have to.

Speaker 5 (02:19:52):
Keep RESISTING so i do have a lot.

Speaker 9 (02:19:54):
Of HOPE and I and I and i feel like
AGAIN like i want to look at what the organiz
have done and how far, we've come even in terms
of this.

Speaker 5 (02:20:03):
Latest administration, YOU.

Speaker 9 (02:20:05):
Know i would say, last year after the onset of,
THIS administration i don't think we were seeing a lot,
of resistance not a lot of, Public resistance and instead
we were seeing law firms cave and deciding to create
agreements with. The administration we are seeing educational, institutions come,
you know cave and come up with a lot. Of

(02:20:25):
agreements but what we did see is we saw the.
People resisting and that HAPPENED in la and that Happened,
in chicago and that certainly Happened in Minneapolis And saint Paul.
And MINNESOTA so i, take HEART and i think what
we need to continue to think about doing is how
people are going to do the mutual aid work and the.

Speaker 5 (02:20:44):
CARE work i think we need to continue to do
the know your rights and know your. Risks work.

Speaker 9 (02:20:49):
THAT'S essential i think a big thing we need to
continue to think about Is The insurrection act and getting
information out About The, insurrection act which may be invoked
prior to. This election, YOU know i think that the
ongoing work that people have been, doing again it's about
the people and the power of the people that have
gotten us. This far but even if we look at,

(02:21:11):
what happened, you know this past week and eight million
people coming out to protest, and resist those numbers didn't
exist over a, Year ago.

Speaker 5 (02:21:19):
AND so i feel like the resistance.

Speaker 9 (02:21:21):
Is happening people are coming together and despite, INSTITUTIONAL failures
i think the movement has, grown SIGNIFICANTLY and i think
we have to even look at the last year and
a half to see how far. We've come AND so
i have hope that we'll go, even FURTHER and i
hope that we're not returning to the. Status quo and

(02:21:43):
in fact we are actually dreaming the world we want to,
live in and that we are going to fight for
the world we want to, live in and that this
is an opportunity for us to let things go and
for us to create A.

Speaker 4 (02:21:55):
New well thank you all for, those hopeful hope full forecasting.
Advice answers you don't always get, that twist which is,
really LOVELY and i feel like it's been something that's
on my mind a lot Here. In minnesota that's sometimes
when things are the worst and you're of the closest

(02:22:17):
to violence. And terror it's also when you see how
powerful people are and how powerful resistance.

Speaker 9 (02:22:22):
CAN be, i mean these are long fights and these are. Long,
HAULS yeah i think that's.

Speaker 12 (02:22:28):
Kind of the, lesson is, you know not to get
all peer k, a vote but you are not obligated
to finish.

Speaker 19 (02:22:37):
The work but neither are you free to. Abandon it
like these are.

Speaker 12 (02:22:41):
Long, fights yeah they are fights that we don't. Win
alone it's not possible or desirable to win these.

Speaker 5 (02:22:49):
Fights, Alone right.

Speaker 12 (02:22:51):
THEY'RE generational i mean they last. Multiple generations so you
know this like the ever receding horizon of. Real, democracy
right there's no forecast that could even be adequate because
it's gonna go on for. So LONG but i think
the advice is always, the, same right just don't.

Speaker 17 (02:23:13):
Toxic, cups yeah what she said is generally and you're
not free to just abandon.

Speaker 18 (02:23:20):
The work mom IS.

Speaker 17 (02:23:21):
Like i would like write that on a wall SOMEWHERE
because i think things people jump, In right it's, like okay,
this hot let's. Do it but like once it's not
a hot, new thing, you know people kind of move
on to the next say it's, like, No none that's
when we need folks to stick in it and. You
CAN'T and i think that's just a really important, like lesson.

Speaker 19 (02:23:37):
Send me your.

Speaker 12 (02:23:37):
Mailing address i'm gonna send You a i'm gonna send you.

Speaker 17 (02:23:40):
A poster or can you? CROCHET it i know you.
Can crochet you gotta with the flowers. And, everything yeah
thank you all. So much you guys.

Speaker 5 (02:23:49):
ARE awesome i love. You guys it's.

Speaker 17 (02:23:51):
SO great i feel like got a, Therapy session, LIKE
oh i feel so much, better off.

Speaker 18 (02:23:54):
But like what, we're doing like where, we are AND
like i.

Speaker 2 (02:23:57):
HAVE hope.

Speaker 1 (02:23:59):
I med a cake one of.

Speaker 4 (02:24:00):
You found thank you for listening to Outlaw on it could.
Happen here if you liked, the episode check out The
show outlaw wherever you get your podcasts, and, rate review
And follow outlaw Pod on Instagram And blue sky for anti,
repression updates news and stories that you might want. To
know From, the North, from south.

Speaker 7 (02:24:20):
From everywhere.

Speaker 20 (02:24:36):
This is It could. Happen Here, executive disorder our weekly
newscast covering what's happening In The, white house the, crumbling
world and what it means.

Speaker 7 (02:24:43):
For You I'm.

Speaker 20 (02:24:44):
Garrison davis today and Joined By, James Stout, mia Wong And.
Robert evans this episode recovering the Week of may Twentieth
to may. Twenty, seventh james some small widow idy bitty
news items, To.

Speaker 10 (02:24:57):
Start yeah talk about the, little things and then we
talk about some things in. More Detail the trump administration
has lifted a cap on refugee admissions by. Ten thousand
this sounds like good news you realize it is to
allow More White south africans to seek refuge In The
united States.

Speaker 7 (02:25:17):
Of america.

Speaker 10 (02:25:18):
Great stuff hey. THIS country i Found The federal. Register
thing it's still, the documents still it, up THERE but
i will link to the place where the document will
probably Be.

Speaker 7 (02:25:28):
The dutch will never.

Speaker 10 (02:25:29):
Be Forgiven The united states has also continued its campaign
of strikes In. The pacific the most recent one left
two survivors along with one man who.

Speaker 7 (02:25:42):
Has Killed.

Speaker 10 (02:25:45):
So there's guardian published a piece a while ago about
what happened to some survivors who were taken BY the us.
Military BOAT the us military boarded, their vessel stole their food,
and beer and then Transports Them, twelve salvador where they
were questioned and then released to immigration orites and eventually. Sent,
HOME basically i guess effectively deported for Illegally Entering el
salvador after they were brought there BY the us By The. United,

(02:26:09):
states yeah AFTER the. Us, bomber yeah so we don't
know what happened to these. TWO people I Guess coast
guide activated so to rescue after. The strike so hopefully they.
Found them it's better than them drowning. Out There their
Department Of homeland security is auto extending the temporary protected Status,
for lebanon not because they affirmatively chose to, do so

(02:26:31):
but because they failed to renewer terminate it, in time so.
Auto Extended Mark, wayne MULLIN the, dhs secretary has claimed
That the Department of Home and security is drawing up
plans to not process incoming international flights in. Sanctuary.

Speaker 20 (02:26:46):
Cities, what yeah this is ahead Of The, world, Cup,
right yes.

Speaker 7 (02:26:52):
So let's play a.

Speaker 21 (02:26:53):
Little clip we are currently which were not, initiate yet
but we're currently drawing up plans, to, say listen these
sanctuary cities where the local radical left democrats aren't allowing
us to do our job and enforce, federal laws then
we shouldn't be processing international flights into their into their.
Cities either because they don't want us to, enforce immigration

(02:27:17):
but they want us to process immigration at. Their facilities
nothing about that makes sense.

Speaker 10 (02:27:21):
To me the line, HE'S drawing i GUESS what i
want to guess at is that he's claiming that in
places where police WON'T support ice by removing protesters from
the STREETS outside, ice Facilities The united states is not

(02:27:41):
going to allow international travelers to enter at airports in.
Those cities there's a lot to break. Down There like
i'm not really going to because it suffice it to
say that this would cause.

Speaker 20 (02:27:54):
Absolute chaos that's not going, to happen because that's going
to heavily. Disrupt capital that's that's just that's just.

Speaker 10 (02:27:59):
Not, happen yeah it's not really possible for this. To,
work like it's not that they can divert to non, woke,
airports right that's not how air.

Speaker 1 (02:28:09):
Travel works is?

Speaker 10 (02:28:10):
This silly but, It's Interesting like mullin has been a
bit less kind of crazy and he's like posting. His,
policy yeah but maybe he was just getting.

Speaker 20 (02:28:21):
WARMED up i Mean, he's yeah he obviously does not
understand who his drew. Master is if he actually thinks
that this is something that.

Speaker 7 (02:28:27):
Can, happen YEAH he i don't know if he.

Speaker 10 (02:28:30):
Does what he's just Talking To fox news and yeah
said what He Thought fox news wanted. To hear mullin
was talking about this in response to a large and
growing Protest At, delaney hall which is a private detention Facility,
In Newark, new jersey where three hundred detainees have been
on hunger strike Since. Last friday mullin has versusly claimed
that they chose to do This Some Memorial, day friday,

(02:28:51):
of Course Not, memorial day and that they want their.
Ethnic food people in detention are entitled to religiously, appropriate
food but that's not what's, happening, here right people are
on hunger strike because of the conditions in. The Facility
New Jersey Senator, andy kim who's been there for a
while with protesters that he got pepper balled and. Tear

(02:29:12):
gast he entered the facility to, inspect it and he
made a thread on egg, dot com the, everything website
where he detailed horrible, abuses inside including a woman who
had been denied obg wayncare and a pregnant woman who
had miscarried inside. THE facility dhs has claimed in response,
that quote, IN fact ice has highed detention standards IN

(02:29:33):
most us prisons that HOLD actual. Us citizens that's an
incredible thing to say when someone has just detailed the
fact that people are having un accompanied miscarriages in your
facility and, being, like well we do worse Things to.
Americans here there are really a lot of. Layers There,
on monday one of the leaders of the hunger strike

(02:29:53):
was transferred out of the Facility in newark to. Another,
facility right it's not uncommon for people to be moved
around in immigration detention for, various reasons right to include.

Speaker 7 (02:30:06):
In, this case.

Speaker 10 (02:30:07):
They're, ORGANIZING finally thepcw has published documents detailing a large
hall of undeclared chemical weapons that it Found.

Speaker 20 (02:30:16):
In syria what IS the moszpw for those who may
not be, Acronym aware.

Speaker 10 (02:30:22):
It's the organization For the Prohibition Of. Chemical weapons why this. Is,
interesting firstly there has been open source reporting detailing The
use biaside of chemical weapons against his own population, for
years and this. Confirms, that secondly there is a particularly
disgusting faction of the left In The united states and

(02:30:44):
elsewhere which has spent years denying that this is, the
case spent years effectively running cover FOR a sad murdering
little children with. Chemical weapons we had very good evidence
that this was. Happening before we now have incontrovertible proof
That as sad have the ability to do this and did.
Do this we already know that he, did it but

(02:31:07):
it should really make you question the legitimacy of any
media source that continues or ever has denied THAT a
sad used, chemical weapons or indeed any politician or. Political
actor there's no instance in which it's okay to use
chemical weapons, against, civilians period and anyone apologizing, for that in,
my opinion it is.

Speaker 20 (02:31:26):
Pretty despicable in, other news about two, WEEKS Ago abc
news nuked the five thirty, eight archive scrubbing all the
articles with links now redirecting TO The abc. Politics homepage
as annoying as some of the five thirty eight type people,
can be this is a bad removal of like documented

(02:31:49):
informations going all the way back to two thousand. And
eight it is UNFORTUNATE that abc has. Done this there
still is third party archives of these articles that you,
can find but it will make actually referencing information held
or previously held on five thirty eight much more difficult.

Speaker 1 (02:32:05):
Going, forward YEAH and i also just want to say
this is a continuous problem with storing information On, the
internet which, Is, that yeah information On the internet is.
Incredibly ephemeral it is very easy for entire people's lives
work to simply be deleted because a parent company decided
to make. A move, and yeah there's a bunch of
people who do good work on, digital preservation but all

(02:32:27):
of the work that we produce online is significantly more
ephemeral than we tend to.

Speaker 7 (02:32:31):
Think.

Speaker 2 (02:32:31):
About, yeah Yeah As jamie loftus said in her last
regular podcast that she did, for us this is a
future piece of, lost, media right which is true of
almost everything anyone puts up On, the.

Speaker 7 (02:32:42):
Internet and.

Speaker 2 (02:32:44):
There are groups of people who have worked over the
years to try and, mitigate that Including The internet archive
and The Way, back machine and they are currently, under
attack as is from Within The, wikipedia foundation as we'll talk,
About later, but, like yeah it's the only way to
make this stuff not be aphemeral and to actually like
keep a permanent archive of culture is to support the people.

(02:33:08):
Doing that and the people doing that are never going
to be entirely, cool with, for example the people who,
make movies the people who put, out newspapers and there's
an extent to which they just need the backing of
us and of our government to say you can't stop
them from doing that because it's in the best needs
of the, human race and.

Speaker 1 (02:33:27):
That's not going to happen right.

Speaker 20 (02:33:28):
Now anyway, Last Weekend fox news reported that socialist Live
Streamer hassan piker and the leader of the Activist Organization
code pink have been subpoena by the federal government as
a part of an investigation into a humanitarian aid Trip
to cuba with a bunch of left wing activists and Influencers.

(02:33:50):
Last march fox claimed this investigation is part of a
quote broader dragnet inveloping as many As forty american citizens
who Joined the marxist Convoy to. Havana unquote after Returning
from cuba two, months AGO twenty us citizens were briefly
detained and interrogated at, the border and eighteen of them

(02:34:10):
had their phones and other devices SEIZED by cbp agents
At The Miami INTERNATIONAL. Airport yep fox supported that these
new subpoenas Show that piker is now caught in a
quote federal inquiry into whether activists who Traveled to Cuba
in MARCH violated us sanctioned laws, through, financing coordination or

(02:34:33):
delivery of Goods, to cuba including potential Contacts with cuban
government personnel or entities on, the island also claiming that
this investigation is part of a quote broader effort by Officials, At,
treasury State And justice departments to curb malign foreign influence
operations Inside The united. States Unquote hassan piker has said

(02:34:55):
that he learned about the Subpoena through fox's, media reporting
and he has not yet been contacted by. The government
fox referred to these subpoenas as quote unquote, Administrative subpoenas
and it turns Out Neither hassan Piker Nor code pink
have actually been subpoenaed by. The government they've they've not

(02:35:18):
actually been served by the. Federal government. Oh Boy, on
tuesday the Leader Of code Pink Told ryan grimm that
she received an email From The Treasury department's Office Of
Foreign assets control requesting information about the Trip, to cuba
suggesting that there is some, probe here but it's not technically,

(02:35:40):
a subpoena and there's still no indication Yet If hassan
piker has received a similar request.

Speaker 1 (02:35:46):
For information, and like this.

Speaker 2 (02:35:49):
Is bad it's not unusual if you go to a
Place like Cuba that, american citizens they're certainly not supposed.
To trades it too directly to be stopped in questions
of the way to, the country and it's now not
unusual for devices to.

Speaker 1 (02:36:03):
Be taken none of this.

Speaker 2 (02:36:05):
Is good like the fact that they could just take
your shit at the border. Remains bad, but Yeah as garrison,
has said, right now this is.

Speaker 1 (02:36:12):
Not what a lot of initial reporting made it. Look Like.

Speaker 20 (02:36:15):
Quite, Yeah no, if anything It seems fox is trying to,
encourage this this broader drag net and manufacturer consent for
there being subpoenas for people on this humanitarian age and.

Speaker 7 (02:36:29):
Influencer, Trip, yeah james Speaking.

Speaker 10 (02:36:33):
Of, Cuba yeah so let's talk a little bit about
people seeking to become permanent residents Of The, united states
and we'll get To the cuba tie in a. Minute
here SO a uscis policy memorandum has a vice uscif's
officers that MOST non us citizens is seeking to adjust

(02:36:55):
their status will now have to LEAVE the usa to.
Do so what it's adjusting adjusting generally when somebody who
is here on a non immigrant visa or on another
immigration status are just to become a, permanent resident right
and previously they could do that Inside The, united states
or they could go to a consulate and they could

(02:37:17):
apply for a green kind of a consulate Outside The.
United states now they're, saying that aside from cases of
what they are calling, extraordinary discretion they're going to make
people leave and apply from Outside The.

Speaker 7 (02:37:31):
United states that.

Speaker 10 (02:37:33):
Is bad what is worse is the way that this
overlaps with their. Existing, policies right people already applying facing.
Huge delays i've everbotten on, that before and now new
applicants and possibly people who are halfway through their process
will have. To leave that will often mean spouses leaving

(02:37:54):
their spouse and their citizen children if they have them
for an unknown amount. Of, time right this could take
you very realistic to expect this to. Take years this
dovetails with existing visa bands on seventy. Five countries what
that means is that people from many of these countries

(02:38:15):
cannot obtain any. Immigrant visas there are some very small
exceptions to these. Visa bands in the case of the
twenty countries which are on a, complete band there are
exceptions for athletes Attending The world cup Or, the olympics. For, Example,
right So, like iran it's one of. Those Countries the
iranian team can Attend The. World cup they're actually Staying,
in tijuana but crossing the border to come and do.

(02:38:36):
Their matches for, everyone, else though if you leave and
then you have to come back to collect a, green
card re enter on an, immigrant visa then you get your.

Speaker 7 (02:38:47):
Green.

Speaker 10 (02:38:47):
Card right if you are prohibited from having an immigrant
visa because you are a citizen of, these countries then
you cannot re enter and thus you cannot get your.
Green card and thus this is a de facto bar
to people from those travel bank countries getting a green
card In The united, states now which is. VERY bad

(02:39:09):
i also noticed that there is not an EXEMPTION that
i can see For The Cuban adjustment. Act Here The
Cuban adjustment act is a special exploited Pathway for cubans
that allows them to adjust a legal permanent. Residence status
it used to be, two years now it's. A year
this is particularly interesting GIVEN the usa is talking so
much about how terrible things Are, in cuba but also

(02:39:29):
saying if you've made it here and you're safe and
you feel safer and you want, to stay. You can't
you have to go Back to cuba AND apply i
guess it. To adjust it seems, very hypocritical but there's.

Speaker 19 (02:39:42):
Nothing.

Speaker 10 (02:39:43):
New YEAH so i spoke to a couple of folks
who would have expertise, in THIS and i don't have
their permission to sign, their name. So won't there isn't
a consulate Option for cubans seeking. To adjust they can't
do it outside of the country And The cuban adjustment
they have to do it. The countries they think that
this would entirely not, Include them but like, everything else

(02:40:05):
it's a little bit unclear and we.

Speaker 7 (02:40:07):
Will, FIND out.

Speaker 10 (02:40:08):
I guess, LAST month uscis also removed categorical deferred ACTION for.
SIJS individuals sijs is special immigrant. Juvenile status it's granted
to people IN the us who are Inside The united
states without status who have been subject, to, abuse abandonment
or neglect as found by. A Court the trump administration

(02:40:30):
has already deported many of these, young people but this
policy memo formally removed categorical, deferred enforcement Which of biden
admin began doing in twenty. Twenty, two essentially some people
will be told on receiving sijas that they would be
safe from deportation and they could receive a. Work permit
deferred enforcement is the same thing that PEOPLE under dhaka

(02:40:52):
have right commonly referred to, as dreamers that has now.

Speaker 1 (02:40:55):
Been removed PEOPLE.

Speaker 10 (02:40:58):
With sijs kind of just to BEING the SIGs offers
a pathway to permanent residency that now these people will
evidently have to live in fear right up until they
are able to. Become citizens if they're able to, become, Citizens,
jess yeah like these are some of the most unfortunate
people on. The planet like people who get sijs use

(02:41:20):
of it has increased for, unaccompanied miners right that or children,
should say people who have come across in the last
maybe since twenty, eighteen ish but still it's people who.

Speaker 7 (02:41:31):
Have often gone to really.

Speaker 10 (02:41:32):
Terrible things the, justification Cited and i'm quoting from the
memo here is. That quote the criminality gangs and program.
Integrity Concerns In Special Immigrant Juvenile petitions report reviewed over
three hundred THOUSAND aliens sija petitions filed from the beginning
of fiscal year twenty Thirteen through february twenty. Twenty five
key findings included eight hundred and fifty three known or

(02:41:55):
suspected gang members WHO filed, sija petitions most receiving approval
of a SIX. Hundred ms thirteen gang MEMBERS filed, sij
petitions and more than five hundred. Were approved, among them
at least seventy had been charged with gang related, federal racketeering,
conspiracy offenses and many other charges violent crimes In The,
united states including murderer. Sex OFFENSES additional soja petition approvals

(02:42:18):
included more than one hundred known or suspected members Of The.
Eighteenth gang at least three Trend de ragua gang members
and dozens Of nor tenos. Gang members if you go
back and look at, those numbers three hundred, THOUSAND petitions
i see. Seventy, charges yeah. That's absurd that is a
fraction of a.

Speaker 20 (02:42:38):
Single percent if they reviewed three, Hundred thousand even if
this like eight hundred and fifty number, it's correct is,
completely correct which is not which that's like less than
one third of. A, percent.

Speaker 7 (02:42:49):
Yeah exactly it is a.

Speaker 10 (02:42:50):
Minuscule fraction if every single person who, they suspect and
given what we've seen, about suspicion that could be as
much as having, a, Tattoo.

Speaker 6 (02:42:58):
Right, yeah yeah it's.

Speaker 10 (02:43:00):
Ludicrous to join one up with the other, and, say
therefore all of these, young people many of whom have
gone through horrific things now will have.

Speaker 7 (02:43:07):
To live in.

Speaker 10 (02:43:08):
Fear again that policy memo came Out. IN april i
found IT when i was looking through the policy memos
ON the, uscis WEBSITE and i haven't seen any other reporting.
On It maybe i've just, missed it but it's certainly
something that people should be. AWARE of i want to
do a scripted Series on sijas people for, understandable reasons
not all of them want to get up in the media.

Speaker 20 (02:43:28):
Right, now yeah in terms of all the immigration changes that,
have happened this collection of stuff is like some of
the Worst that.

Speaker 7 (02:43:36):
I've heard you. Talk, about yeah it's.

Speaker 10 (02:43:38):
Really bad like they STARTED deporting, sijs people and even
even immigration lawyers who have been, like that This second
trump administration is going to be. Really bad The second
trump administration is. Really bad people did not expect them
to begin going after, these people and they did when they.
Were detaining another thing they've claimed is that like some
of them are over, twenty one, over eighteen because they

(02:43:58):
can still apply it to twenty.

Speaker 15 (02:43:59):
One.

Speaker 10 (02:44:00):
Jurisdictions, Right, again sure that doesn't mean that they haven't
been through, Terrible things like many many twenty one year
Olds in america rely on their parents. For things these
people often don't have their parents or have been some
cases been abused by or abandoned by, their parents and
then sending them back to a place where they may be,
in danger where they may not. Be, Safe right there

(02:44:22):
is no moral ethical justification.

Speaker 1 (02:44:24):
For, this really it's. Really bad it's. Really, horrible yeah pure.

Speaker 10 (02:44:30):
Undiluted, Violence yeah, and likewise we can very clearly see
if we look at the list of travel boud countries
is going to be a bar and people from a
large number of countries where the majority of the population
is not white getting citizenship and legal public residence states
In The united states rights something that has very clearly
been a motivating factor of policy for a. Long, time,

(02:44:51):
so yeah more shit news from me. About immigration talking of,
shit news we have to pivot. To advertisements we.

Speaker 12 (02:45:13):
And.

Speaker 2 (02:45:13):
We're back, oh boy well that's all been. Very depressing
you know what's Not. Depressing catholicism, oh oh and, that
too too great taste great together to make us.

Speaker 1 (02:45:28):
All happy.

Speaker 2 (02:45:30):
Oh man this week the same work that we're, Recording
This pope leo the fourteenth issued An Encyclical, magnifica humanitas
that warned against equating machine intelligence with. Human intelligence, he
declared we must avoid the misconception of equating this type
of intelligence with that of. Human beings these systems merely

(02:45:50):
imitate certain functions of. Human intelligence this has, BEEN seen
i think by most critics of artificial intelligence as a pretty.
Good encyclical it is. Very long it's well over one,
hundred pages so this is not like a. Quick read
you should think about this as like going in and reading.
A book it's a really. Interesting document among, other Things

(02:46:12):
the Pope. Quotes Jr or tolkien at, one, point yeah
which is a nice. Little bit he also makes a
lot of references to mathematics and specifically like kind of
comparing The way catholicism thinks about divinity And The holy
spirit and all that to certain kind of like, geometric
shapes because apparently he was a. MATH major i did not,
know this but it comes through in the writing. OF

(02:46:35):
this i would say my overall impression, is, like Oh
the pope has a lot more understanding of like technical.

Speaker 1 (02:46:40):
STUFF than i thought he was going. To have This
isn't this is.

Speaker 2 (02:46:45):
Not like a bad thing from a like a basic
understanding of how the technology. Works, standpoint obviously a lot
of this is based Around the pope's beliefs about the
like what humanity is and the divinity within, human umanity
which is not something that. Everybody BELIEVES but i also
have found an awful lot of atheists and just kind

(02:47:07):
of like non religious people who have been sharing this
because while they don't, agree, that like, you know human
beings are sacred because of the Sacrifice Of jesus christ necessarily,
or whatever or that we were Made. By god they
agree with the fact that there's something special about humanity
that is not being recreated by, these llmms And so
i've seen a lot of like praise as a result. Of,

(02:47:28):
That however i've also SEEN what i thought were pretty.
Salient critiques and the number one critique here is that
this encyclical was released at an event that was kind
of co launched with People, from anthropic And the vatican
Worked with anthropic for this release and are in general
kind of partnering maybe the, wrong term but working alongside

(02:47:50):
them to try and have a dialogue about the FUTURE
of ai and what it should and. Shouldn't do, and
specifically one Thing That pope leo talked a lot about
was the need to demilitarize or disarm, artificial intelligence as
in remove it from use in like, defense industries and
certainly make sure that it's not making the call to actually.

Speaker 20 (02:48:10):
Kill people and that's Something that anthropic has also took us,
stand on insomuch as that now THAT the us government
is trying to remove any partnership it Has.

Speaker 1 (02:48:20):
With, nthropic, yes yes they at least were openly.

Speaker 2 (02:48:23):
Against that now that Doesn't mean anthropics A company i
like or a company that everybody. Should like they still
played your eyes huge millions, of people basically anyone who's
ever written. A book there's a lot of, illegal things
objectively Illegal things, anthropic did and that's why there are
numerous lawsuits against. Them NOW and i think it is
in fact a problem that One of anthropics, Co Founders,

(02:48:43):
chris ola was invited to speak at this event In,
the vatican because one of the first things he did
after Thanking the vatican And The catholic church And the
pope for having, him there is kind of disagree with
What the pope had said that these systems merely imitate
certain functions of. Human Intelligence because ola said that These
systems i'm not quote from an article In the register

(02:49:04):
Here By thomas CLAPBURN quote, ai systems, he said are
not the cold calculating robots we. Were promised they are made,
from us from, our words and As The holy, father
observes they remain an important way is mysterious to those
of us who.

Speaker 1 (02:49:15):
Train them this IS what i have an. Issue, with no.

Speaker 2 (02:49:20):
They're not they're mysterious me in the same sense that
like if you make a car that had always just
been a simple. Ice engine if you make that a
hybrid and you throw like a computer screen and a
bunch of shit, in it you're gonna have a bunch
of problems with, your car as like a manufacturer that
you you didn't expect to have because you've.

Speaker 1 (02:49:36):
Added, complexity right.

Speaker 20 (02:49:37):
But we can't predict every single outcome of, machine learning,
right yeah but but but the way the aropic guy,
is using, you know basic basic facts about like machine
learning and, neural networks but framing them in a way to.

Speaker 2 (02:49:51):
These, are mysterious like the human brain, is mysterious, and, no,
yes yeah but but it's also, like course you can't
predict what the output is your.

Speaker 1 (02:49:59):
Entire processes you're just multiplying matrices against each other over
and over again and then checking to see if the
output of the random matricey multiplication you've done is what, You.

Speaker 7 (02:50:08):
Want, like yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:50:09):
No shit the dumb person comparison might BE if i
were to buy an empty HOUSE and i were to
fill that house with random shit for, thirty years for
so Long that i've Forgotten what i've put in, the
house AND then i sent you into the house to
grab something at random. FROM it i might be totally
surprised by what you. Bring out that doesn't mean anything
mysterious or sacred. Has occurred it Just means i've.

Speaker 7 (02:50:31):
Forgotten, all this.

Speaker 3 (02:50:32):
You.

Speaker 1 (02:50:33):
Know. Yeah yeah or it's like it's like if you
make a machine that just like spits out a, random,
output yes you don't know what it's going, to, be, like.

Speaker 7 (02:50:42):
Yes this is this is what you, have.

Speaker 2 (02:50:44):
Done exactly a random output when it was been trained
on the corpus of like.

Speaker 7 (02:50:49):
Human. Knowledge.

Speaker 2 (02:50:50):
Right yeah and one of the THINGS that i find
very frustrating Is that olah made the STATEMENT that ai
systems are made from us and from, our, Words right.

Speaker 1 (02:50:59):
And he said that in a way as to like and.

Speaker 2 (02:51:01):
That's good it, means, that like we all are a
part of this and it's a part, of us and
so there's humanity. In, it, no, NO no ai isn't
like made from. Our words they stole our words that
are consent in order to monetize them.

Speaker 1 (02:51:12):
For themselves. That's different that's.

Speaker 10 (02:51:15):
Real, different yeah in the same way that back in
the DAY when i, begun teaching people would plagiarize by
copying pasting things. From, books yeah those are also made by.
People's words it doesn't make, them, sacred yeah makes. Them,
stolen now all our lists in here three questions for
discernment and he phrases, is LIKE and i Hope The
catholic church can like help us figure out how we

(02:51:36):
should move forward with. These things these are the big QUESTIONS.
BEHIND ai i want to quote again for that piece
In the register because the author, Of, that clappert has
a funny, Bit here, oh la how can we ensure
the GAINS of ai are? Shared globally we do not
have a mechanism. For this we have many what is.
CALLED taxes i know there is litigation already. On going
we also Have The french revolution And The russian revolution,

(02:51:56):
among others as well as sharing models when nothing.

Speaker 6 (02:51:59):
Else works, That's, good yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:52:04):
That's good That's what i've got to say.

Speaker 20 (02:52:05):
ON this, i, mean yeah obviously this anthropic guy is
going to frame certain things as marketing for, the company
right he that that's going to determine the way that
that that he uses certain words and the way that
he discusses machine learning and. Neural networks right when he's
saying that this is like based on the human, brain
roughly it's, because yeah it's because it's because it's a
machine learning, neural network so it's that's going to frame

(02:52:26):
the way that he's. DOING it i think it makes
sense For The catholic church to try to enter into
dialogue with a Company, like, anthropic sure especially if, they can,
you know unite against teals efforts and even maybe some
of some of the Efforts Of. Open aye But obviously
anthropic has their own motivations for, doing this which is to.

Speaker 1 (02:52:41):
Enrich, themselves, yes yes BUT it's i don't think it's.

Speaker 20 (02:52:45):
Surprising That The catholic church will will also try to
enter into dialogue to influence the outcome of. THESE things
i think, in General the pope statement is.

Speaker 1 (02:52:53):
IS fine i Think the pope statement.

Speaker 2 (02:52:56):
IS fine i do think this might be a data
point in terms of in The future church may need
to recognize that you can't actually work with.

Speaker 1 (02:53:03):
These guys perhaps that will be the outcome. We'll, See
WELL but, I mean I think i think that's part
of what's happening, here, though right is that the Reason
the church IS taking antiai positions while working with them
is that they're like they're they're trying to have it
both ways in terms of co opting both LIKE the
antiai movement and also work like work with these companies
to sort of like build their.

Speaker 2 (02:53:24):
INFLUENCE space i don't see it, FULLY that i think for,
the popes because he's been very consistent about being horrified
by the growth of the arms industry and the IDEA
of ai weapons. IN war i kind of suspect From the,
vatican's standpoint when that all Erupted with anthropic pulling out
and saying they weren't willing to work With the Department
of defense on the things the deity wanted them, to

(02:53:45):
do that that's probably When the vatican made. The CALL
but i don't. Actually know, You know i'm Not gonna
i'm not going to say that the more sinister outcome
is definitely not. What's OCCURRING but i think there's a
number of ways to kind of look at what the
decision that was made and why it.

Speaker 7 (02:53:59):
WAS made, i Mean.

Speaker 20 (02:54:01):
The catholic arch is one of the most globally influential
bodies on. The planet they do have like their theological
reasons FOR opposing ai as well as sort of ethical
reasons that it's illuminated by the pope in terms of
like work, of protections in terms of the anti, war
STUFF and i do believe he has, like actual, you
know legitimate spiritual beliefs about like what, humanity is and

(02:54:23):
it WAS something i appreciate is that he doesn't just
take THIS like ai skeptic point of view and just
to deny THAT like ai will, you know significantly transform, our,
world RIGHT because I think ai is is transforming production
and in some pretty. Significant Ways that pope's not just
HOPING that ai will. Go away he's affirming that we
actually need to do something about this to protect our.

(02:54:46):
Own humanity and EVEN though ai is not, human it
humans do determine how it will, be developed and therefore we.
Should ACT and i think that makes sense for. His,
POSITION yeah. I don't i'm not surprised as to the
fact that he's. DOING it i guess my long term
DOUBT is i don't think any of these companies have

(02:55:08):
the ability on their own to make. Responsible, choices no
certainly not the future of these.

Speaker 1 (02:55:15):
Of THESE and i don't think they have the ability
to contribute to.

Speaker 2 (02:55:18):
Responsible, DECISIONS sure i think they need to be, Man,
handled yeah totally by armed agents of. The state OTHERWISE
armed us are going to have to, do it, you
know that's that's, the reality and that's, the reality not JUST,
with ai that's the reality with every.

Speaker 1 (02:55:35):
Mega. Corporation right if.

Speaker 2 (02:55:36):
The government does not stop them from destroying life for
large numbers, of people then large numbers of people are
going to do crazy things, to them. You know and
if you want crazy things to stop happening to, for
EXAMPLE the Ceo OF, open ai maybe he should stop
saying his technology might.

Speaker 7 (02:55:52):
Kill.

Speaker 20 (02:55:52):
Everyone yeah on a, Related note wired has recently obtained
thousands of documents FROM, THE, dhs fbi and state level
info sharing. Anti terrorism they're called, fusion centers where information
is shared BETWEEN, the FEDS, the stay and local local.

Speaker 7 (02:56:11):
Law enforcement and a.

Speaker 20 (02:56:13):
Report From The New york intelligence And Counter terrorism bureau
has warned of widespread upheaval in response to the ADOPTION,
of ai and has coined a, new term quote anti
tech violent. Extremism unquote this is this is a this

(02:56:33):
is a quote from.

Speaker 1 (02:56:34):
This.

Speaker 20 (02:56:35):
Report quote the chaotic atmosphere that may result FROM emergent
aa technology in the next five years may fuel large
scale protests that devolve into civil unrest and anti tech violent,
extremist activity especially in larger bernarias Such As new york.

Speaker 7 (02:56:50):
City unquote this.

Speaker 20 (02:56:52):
Is, interesting also According, to Wired The intelligence bureau report
Referenced the ziziants and worn that quote paranoid VIEWS regarding
ai may proliferate in the Aftermath of physician's trial thanks
to their quote attempt, to reason the belief that a
godlike INCARNATION of ai is imminent and belief that humans

(02:57:16):
must best use their time in the present to devote
themselves to ensuring its compliance with, human morality or face
existential consequences for failing to.

Speaker 7 (02:57:25):
Do So.

Speaker 20 (02:57:26):
Unquote god this is, really interesting the Stuff that roberts
been talking about for quite. A, while yeah, AND like
i think this report was actually written Before The sam
maltman molotov, cocktail attack or at least it was written
around the, same TIME but i think probably a little.
Bit before but considering the molotov cocktail attack On sim

(02:57:47):
maltman's property and the gunshots fired into the home of
a pro data center city, council, person like it makes
sense that law enforcement IS considering antiai violence as an emerging.
Threat vector but it also makes sense to be concerned
that non violent opposition may get caught in a federal
or state. Level, dragnet yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:58:08):
And that's what fusion center is, to, you right they
think dragnet a whole bunch, of shit.

Speaker 7 (02:58:12):
And that's exactly what.

Speaker 20 (02:58:13):
Centers do and most Of this wired report is talking
about documents from fusion centers. And like as we have,
already seen, law enforcements surveillance capacity and scope has been
empowered and extended By The National Security presidential memorandum, number
seven and public organizers and protesters are much easier to
target than the small minority of people that actually end

(02:58:34):
up committing. Violent crimes wired reported, that, federal state and
local agencies are gathering and circulating intelligence about alleged threats to.
Data centers the intelligence Documents that wired quotes from outline
a variety of threat actors, and models not simply data.
Center protests quote, adversarial actors including state, sponsored entities, criminal

(02:58:57):
groups and extremists such as homegrown island extremists or environmental
extremists MAY target us. Data centers these actors could also
exploit the strategic importance of data centers TO the, us
economy using them for activities like, cryptocurrency mining or leveraging
third party entities such as front companies to gain ACCESS

(02:59:17):
to us data and, infrastructure unquote so that outlines not
just like environmental or like the general anti data center
beliefs held By the. American public like this shows like actual,
you know like threats to national security by hostile state
actors or, criminal groups as well as people with their

(02:59:37):
own environmental or ethical reasons FOR opposing. Ai, Domestically though
wired also reported That a fusion Center In northern virginia
created a Report on tesla takedown protests and in person
assemblies like demonstrations In An arlington county budget meeting And
A fairfax County school board meeting where people voiced OPPOSITION.

Speaker 1 (02:59:56):
To, ai yeah and this is again also like historically
what these fision centers have been, Used for exchange was,
TALKING about i mean like all the way back To,
LIKE god, i MEAN like i probably should have worked
out in WHAT order i wanted to talk, About These,
like yeah fusion centers have been used to target everything
from like anti ur rock war protest stuff in like
the mid two thousands through, like yeah like fusion centers

(03:00:20):
are like one of the big coordinat engagents for like
all of the repression in. Twenty twenty they've been used
in Like anti palestine protests and LIKE twenty fourge and the.
Campus occupations, so, LIKE yeah i like these sorts of
like intelligence reports are talking about like different, threat factors
but going after protesters is like what these fision centers
in a lot of cases are designed.

Speaker 7 (03:00:39):
To do, so, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:00:41):
Definitely a thing to be, concerned about given what these
things are and what. They, do yeah speaking of, cryptocurrency mining,
oh boy, so, yeah yeah speak speak speaking of using
large entities for. Crypto bullshit so last week we talked
a bit about and wash The New Federal reserve board

(03:01:02):
chairman's like ties to the tech, right right ties to
feel ties and recent ties to this whole sort of
world of like tech venture. Capital money AND today i
want to talk about as an executive Order from may
nineteenth From the trump administration that Orders The federal reserve
to consider allowing crypto companies and OTHER non fdic and

(03:01:24):
short entities to. Use, fedwire okay so what? Is fedwire
on a. Macro level fedwire is the reason The entire american.
Economy functions it is the payment service that banks IN
the us used to both send money to each other
and TO. The fed if you wanted to do. An,
analogy right you could say that Fedwire is PayPal, for

(03:01:46):
banks but like the reality is, Not That like PayPal
Is like fedwire.

Speaker 7 (03:01:51):
For. People right fedwire.

Speaker 1 (03:01:53):
Is maybe the single most important infrastructure piece of The
entire america. A me i was gonna talk about this a,
bit later but the surface on, an AVERAGE the fed
estimates that it moves one point one quadrillion dollars.

Speaker 10 (03:02:08):
Per year whoa what is a quadrillion fit then in
a number of, bigness scale that's a million million dollars lot. Per,
Year right like The entire american financial system moves moves through.

Speaker 1 (03:02:21):
This service and you can also like move money to
the government, through this so you can you can do
exchanges With The federal reserve itself or The Different federal. Reserve,
banks now in order to get access, to fedwire you
have to be an, actual, bank right you have to
be LIKE an fdic. Insured Bank and crypto has not
had access to. This system LIKE crypto i really don't

(03:02:43):
want to call them crypto banks because they're, not banks
and that's why they have a net access to. The
system because they're. Not banks crypto is not money and
it's not none of.

Speaker 7 (03:02:53):
This stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:02:53):
THE subjects, i mean IT'S subject i guess to a
little bit of like, securities regulation but it's not subject
to ACTUAL like fdic regulation or importantly deposit insurance, because
again these are. Not, Banks now crypto has been trying
to get access TO the fed wire system for years
because in order for crypto companies to sort of like

(03:03:13):
interface with the rest of the, banking system they have
to like basically like get a bank to act as
a partner for them instead of being able to like
directly move the stuff around because they can't access. The
system And so trump has at least given an executive
order FOR the fed to consider.

Speaker 7 (03:03:29):
Doing This now trump cannot.

Speaker 1 (03:03:32):
Actually, force directly like you can't just sign an executive
order that says you have To let crypto do this
BECAUSE of. Fed independence BUT the fed had already sort
of like opened a period of public comment. On this
and this is SOMETHING that i think wash, is this
this is. The way it's why it is important that
this is happening after like the appointment Of Like, kevin
walsh or like after he'd been, technically speaking before he'd,

(03:03:52):
been confirmed but like after or like like before he'd been,
sworn in but after like they knew he Was gonna
he's going to get through because he is extremely friendly to.
These groups this is also a thing that's that's sort
of important for the crypto industry because one of the
issues that crypto has is that actually trying to like
move cryptocurrency around is just. A nightmare that's like one

(03:04:14):
of the reasons why, no one no one actually like
uses it to purchase things because it's it's such. A
disaster and getting access To the fed's payment system suddenly
kind of it gives you a sort of like you
can Use the fed's, playmt patform which, actually works unlike
theirs which. Do, not now the Other reason i'm bringing,
this up so it's worth mentioning that even IF the

(03:04:36):
fed were to allow them to create accounts With The,
federal reserve they wouldn't for now have access to a
lot of the services That The federal, Reserve provides like
they wouldn't be able to do like they take, advantage
of like repo injections and like stuff, Like that like
a lot of a lot of the stuff THAT the
fed uses to stabilize the, economy through like injecting money

(03:04:56):
into the banking system and injecting bonds and stuff like
that into the system they wouldn't have. Access to but
it's pretty clear that these shripto groups wants that eventually
because that gives them access to like the actual sort
of banking capacity of the, federal government which allows them
access to things like very low interest short term loans,
and liquidity, et cetera, et cetera. Et cetera AND what
i want to close on is is that this Is

(03:05:18):
what worsh's, thing, is right he wants there to be
more integration between this sort OF like i call, it,
fintech right like the financial, tech things but, you know
between these very fascist right wing. Tech companies they want
them to be more and more directly integrated into the
payment services and into the banking capacity OF the. US
governments i mentioned earlier that fed wire moves again one

(03:05:40):
point one quadrillion dollars. A. Year now this this is
also what's very Dangerous about trump's people being in control
Of The federal reserve because there is so much infrastructure
inside Of The federal reserve that if it breaks even a,
little bit things that we don't think of, at all
like no one like literally no one thinks about like
even even if you, do stuff you tend not to

(03:06:00):
think about fed wire because it. Just works and this
is less of a risk now that like doge gropers aren't.
Running around but one of the Dangers of trump attempting
to pay control Of The federal reserve is that his
people will break something like this while doing something like
attempting to integrate crypto companies. Into it and so that's
just going to be a continuing risk that we all
sort of have to deal with because tech companies And

(03:06:23):
the trump administration and Now the president Of The federal
reserve want to fuck with these systems on which everything
in all of our lives depends on in ways that we.

Speaker 7 (03:06:34):
Never. See cool, all right.

Speaker 1 (03:06:38):
Speaking of the things that all of our lives, depend
on here are the products and services that support. This
podcast products.

Speaker 22 (03:06:43):
And services, That's, Right, leslie yeah.

Speaker 7 (03:06:56):
All right and.

Speaker 2 (03:06:57):
We're back so they have to unfortunately Talk, about wikipedia
or at Least The. Wikimedia, FOUNDATION obviously i think everyone
hears pretty big Fans, of wikipedia which is at this
point has gone from the thing my teachers used to
TELL me i couldn't use in projects, to like by any.
Objective measure one of the most significant projects in the

(03:07:18):
history of human knowledge and like storage of things that
human beings know and. Have learned it's one of the
last like gasps of the promise of The, old internet
and it's also the thing that underpins all OF the
ai chat Bots alongside reddit in one way, or another
and the answers that they give People like wikipedia is
incredibly IMPORTANT, for ai which, is why like With The

(03:07:40):
wikimedia foundation has made deals like WITH the ai industry
in order to get money for letting them Scrape, like
wikipedia which is kind of part of Why The wikimedia
foundation is currently doing really fucking. Well monetarily they've got
a little under three hundred million dollars, in reserves which
is about a year and a half worth of Money
for so, first, off.

Speaker 20 (03:08:01):
Wait so you're saying those little banners that fill half
of the screen EVERY time I use wikipedia, ARE like i.

Speaker 2 (03:08:07):
Don't want to actually, RIGHT now i do want to
discourage people from Donating.

Speaker 1 (03:08:11):
To WIKIPEDIA historically i, have not but yes.

Speaker 2 (03:08:14):
You should, first, off no if you've been feeling bad about,
not donating they don't currently. Need it they're okay, right
now and they shouldn't get more of your money until
they stop doing the Shit than i'm about to tell,
you about because over the course of ten Days, in
May The wikimedia foundation has engaged and what you could
call major, union busting firing employees who are trying to

(03:08:35):
organize their fellows and trying to like represent those values
Within The. Wikimedia foundation and my source for main source
for this is a pretty good Article That jake orlowitz
put Out. On, medium recently big text anti labor playbook
has Come, for wikipedia and it starts with the Firing
in May Of. Brooke vibber she was the very first

(03:08:57):
full time employee Of The wikimedia foundation and ITS, first
cto the chief, technical officer and for more than, twenty
years she's like one of the main engineers that Has
made wikipedia, work right and she's also a, union organizer
so she's a very. Important person she's the lead developer for,
media wiki which is the platform That runs wikipedia and

(03:09:19):
had been in since two thousand, and three and it
is just a very big person both in terms Of
how wikipedia works and in terms of like the way
in which like they're unionizing efforts. Have gone she was
laid off without any like real, costs given and then a,
week Later on may, twenty First the foundation Disbanded The Community,
tech team which consisted of five engineers and. A Manager
The Community tech team had the job of Listening to,

(03:09:42):
wikipedia editors which are number one The reason wikipedia, has
content and number. Two, Volunteers right so these are regular
employees whose job has been to Hear what wikipedia editors
want and then help make sure that the salary employees
on the team fulfill those desires and as much as that.

Speaker 22 (03:09:59):
Is.

Speaker 2 (03:09:59):
Possible right and so when you fire, these people you,
are saying we don't really give a shit about the.
Volunteer community and it's also noted in This and jake's
article that most of those engineers were. Union, organizers now
there is currently a solidarity Petition for. Wikipedia editor so
if you are an Editor, OF wikipedia i think it
would be great if you signed that. Solidarity petition this

(03:10:22):
is the first time that editors have had to do
an organized solidarity action with paid. Foundation staff, and yeah
it's a. Whole thing the salaried staff there are not
on one side.

Speaker 1 (03:10:33):
About this this is.

Speaker 2 (03:10:33):
Extremely controversial it has a lot to do with the
fact that a number of the, old guard including you
know the folks who are a number of like some
of the oldest People at wikipedia have a kind of
libertarian bit, to them you. Might say And in january
twentieth of twenty, Twenty Six bernadette behan was RECRUITED as

(03:10:53):
ceo of. The foundation and her prior career included WORK
At jp Morgan And, lehman brothers as well as a
spokesperson role FOR.

Speaker 1 (03:11:03):
The Nsc National. Security council she was On The. Obama
foundation she WAS The us Ambassador.

Speaker 7 (03:11:08):
Of chile.

Speaker 2 (03:11:09):
Oh great this is someone who comes from a background
in which fucking with union attempts are very like normal.
And accepted the union's demands are. Not extreme they would
not have any meaningful impact whatsoever on the pile of
Cash that. Wikipedia has there's no excuse For The wikipedia foundation.
Doing this you should be pissed at them and not
give them more money until they make. Things, right anyway that's.

(03:11:31):
My opinion i'm, done nice.

Speaker 10 (03:11:33):
All right so we need to update once again the
situation With The united states War. In IRAN the usa
this week Again bombed iran and violation, of ceasefire calling
it a self defense strike that means still a VIOLATION.
Of cesfa the negotiations, are ongoing both sides who remain.

(03:11:55):
Longwaar pot there have been various leaks and reports of
where where negotiations. Were at one Suggested that iran would
exchange freeing up its assets and other sanctions relief for
removing highly a. Rich Geranium IRANIAN state tv leaked details
of a suppose memorandum, of understanding which would be like

(03:12:16):
the meurmorandum that they would sign in order to, say,
like hey let's get back at. The table, until then
these are our rules, kind of this is the rules
we're operating underwhere WE negotiate themu said the blockade would
end in the straight would, be reopened BUT the usa has.

Speaker 1 (03:12:29):
Denied THAT MoU.

Speaker 10 (03:12:31):
I don't want to go into the blow by the
blow of like leak to denied things because it's just
a waste.

Speaker 7 (03:12:35):
Of time none of.

Speaker 1 (03:12:36):
That's real it's all stock. Market manipulation like it's all.

Speaker 7 (03:12:40):
That's sorry that's literally my. Next.

Speaker 10 (03:12:42):
Sentence, yeah yeah it doesn't stop, people killing it doesn't stop.
People dying it does change the, oil price and it
does change the. Stock MARKET and i think if we
report on this, too credibly we miss the fact that
that that like that is the, real impact and that
is how we should frame this in our not do
the baraquavied thing of rushing up eight bullet points of

(03:13:03):
something that someone told you would.

Speaker 7 (03:13:04):
Never, consider, Why.

Speaker 20 (03:13:05):
Well james you will never have a career at actious with.

Speaker 7 (03:13:07):
That, ATTITUDE yes i.

Speaker 10 (03:13:10):
Think that that bridge has, Been, burned garrison but my
path in life has been lit by the bridges. Side
burns ONE thing i do want to note Is that
trump has attempted to appears to want to tie a
piece seal to having other countries in the region Signed The.
Abraham Accords abraham accords you're not familiar twenty twenty agreement
in WHICH, The, uae Bahrain, Later sudana morocco normalized Relations. With,

(03:13:34):
israel interesting that is unlikely.

Speaker 1 (03:13:37):
To happen.

Speaker 7 (03:13:40):
You Killed. The eyatlin now you think they're going to
Sign The? Abraham, record like what are we? Doing?

Speaker 10 (03:13:45):
HERE yeah i mean it's just going through a wish list.
OF shit i guess that he or people close to.

Speaker 6 (03:13:50):
Him.

Speaker 10 (03:13:51):
Wan, Yeah meanwhile iran is continuing To Attack Southern curtis.
DAN right i think this offer is a very clear
vision Of what kurdish group could expect if they decide
to alli WITH the us and serve as a, ground
force and of course there are very many reasonable reasons
that they would want to, do that right to include
liberating themselves from an. Oppressive regime But The, united states

(03:14:13):
as it has done every, other time would probably abandon
them and they would be subject. To this they are
already subject to this just because of rumors that they
were associating With The. United states, this week one strike
injured Nine, pak peshmerger several of them very. Critically injured talking,
of strikes let's Pivot, to Nigeria where africom is claiming

(03:14:36):
its strikes have killed one hundred and seventy five OR more.
ISIS members i KNOW that i am like the lonely voice.
On this THE second i and THE second S in
isis Stand for iraq And al Sham or Iraq.

Speaker 1 (03:14:50):
And, syria, yep, yeah, yes, yes yes it's.

Speaker 10 (03:14:53):
CONSTANTLY Frustrated isis, corussian province that's not what. It Means
Isis west africa not what.

Speaker 2 (03:14:59):
It means so It's the islamic state Of irakanow Sham.

Speaker 7 (03:15:02):
In africa, like, yeah incredible it's now made.

Speaker 10 (03:15:08):
Into, you like but it.

Speaker 2 (03:15:09):
Would be like if there was Like a christian fundamentalist
Like The Georgia baptist school, of.

Speaker 12 (03:15:15):
Like yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:15:18):
Like The united States, of America The united States, Of, America, japan.

Speaker 7 (03:15:23):
Yeah, come on not what the.

Speaker 1 (03:15:26):
Word, MEANS yeah i.

Speaker 20 (03:15:28):
Mean yeah in The new, CHARACTERISM doc i think they
almost exclusively referred to it AS Isis.

Speaker 10 (03:15:33):
K yeah So that's, corussan, province right which again Not
in iraq Or else sham in what we Would call.
Afghanistan today, it's fine. It's, fine yeah this is where we're.
Out with the fucking acronym is not, An acronym it's just.
A word i, GUESS now i. Remain, angry meanwhile Fighting
Between boko HARAM and iswap Is what i'm going to.

(03:15:53):
Be using And like chad continues to threaten even worse
famine in, the region And hex seth is claiming that
these strikes were part of a campaign To. Defend CHRISTIANS and.

Speaker 23 (03:16:05):
I just want to know one more thing to give
you a sense of how committed this. President is maybe
a year ago he heard the Call Of nigerian christians
who were being targeted and KILLED by Isis, in nigeria and, He,
SAID pete i Want The war department to focus on
ensuring that we do everything we can to Protect.

Speaker 1 (03:16:23):
Those christians partnerships like.

Speaker 23 (03:16:26):
That can take time behind, the scenes but he never wavered,
on it and we got the assets there and over the,
last month and there hasn't been much coverage, of this
WE killed isis number Two, in nigeria who's most responsible
For killing christians and trying to TARGET the, us homeland
and have since because of the intel we gathered killed
HUNDREDS of isis members who were targeting And killing Christians,

(03:16:46):
in nigeria creating a whole new.

Speaker 7 (03:16:47):
Opportunity there so there's a lot of.

Speaker 23 (03:16:49):
Things we do that the media pays, attention to and
a lot of things That the president Empowers the department
to do on behalf Of the american people that he
deserves great.

Speaker 7 (03:16:57):
Credit for so here we are paying.

Speaker 1 (03:16:59):
IT time.

Speaker 10 (03:17:00):
Esp asked you will notice That the african claim of
one hundred and seventy five is. Not, Hundreds however hexth
in that statement. Claimed hundreds maybe we are, missing something
or maybe he's referring To the december twenty twenty five
strikes and including all of those and rolling them. Up
together it's of course worth pointing Out that nigerian government
has pushed back on this narrative that these strikes are To.

(03:17:22):
Defend christians There are christian Bishops in nigeria who have
pushed back on this, narrative because as With many islamist,
terror groups the majority of people these people have killed Are. Not,
Christians right many of Them, are muslims many of them
and people of various. Other Faiths look boko. Haram right
the name roughly translates To like western style education. Is forbidden, it's,

(03:17:45):
Haram right like they're going after people who are in
that community who have Sought out. Western. Education like there, are,
many many MANY instances i could say of these People killing.
Muslim people hegcess wants to make this, a crusade and
that's just not how things are on. The ground it's
a very simplistic understanding of a much more. Complicated reality,

(03:18:06):
but yeah that IS what i Have on nigeria. This
week he is right THAT the us Media covers africa
less much lesson is should but trying to do our.

Speaker 20 (03:18:14):
Best here we have one, more story big story before,
We close but first we should Mention the republican Primary
in Texas. On tuesday After gaining trump's endorsement, Last Week
Texas Attorney General ken paxton won the runoff election In
The republican senate. Primary race paxton won by almost four hundred,

(03:18:36):
thousand votes beating the fourth Term Incumbent Republican Senator john
cornin at sixty four percent to thirty six percent of.
The vote this is the second week in a Row
where trump has successfully intervened to steer a congressional primary
win away from incumbents and toward staunch. Mega loyalists paxton

(03:18:57):
will now go Up Against tall rico in the general Election.

Speaker 7 (03:19:01):
This november should We mention paxton Calling ta? Rico?

Speaker 2 (03:19:05):
Transgender, YEAH yeah i mean it's Not, just Paxton It's.

Speaker 1 (03:19:09):
Miller miller.

Speaker 2 (03:19:12):
Yeah yeah there seems to be A whole gop move
to brand him as trans potentially as part of THEIR
which i kind of see is some degree, of DESPERATION
although i can't Really imagine paxton losing, this election so
maybe it's just that they're completely out of other Ideas.

Speaker 20 (03:19:32):
And paxson does seem to have more Aliabilities. Than cornyn,
was sure But He's, he's paxton and This.

Speaker 1 (03:19:37):
Is texas you.

Speaker 2 (03:19:39):
Have to take this guy has been charged with crimes
AND the gop tried to get rid Of him.

Speaker 1 (03:19:46):
Texas refuses.

Speaker 20 (03:19:48):
ABSOLUTELY not, I mean i never am putting my Faith
in texas as as we. All, know yeah but IF
if i were to set up, A pairing. Tallarico v
paxton pairing is THE one i, would pick as Opposed to.
Tallarico V the cornyn or, You know crockett. V. V, Paxton.

Speaker 2 (03:20:12):
Sure i'm not gonna say there's no Way that. Tallerica
wins it would be an Astonishing leg it would be a. Really,
Yeah look i'll come on here AND admit i, was
Wrong and i'll Be, TH yeah i just been too
long Living.

Speaker 1 (03:20:27):
In texas see this as like the person who's been the, Most,
consistent like assuming there's an election that even sort of,
functions normally this is gonna be like a two thousand
and eight.

Speaker 7 (03:20:37):
Style wave they're not like they're not Gonna.

Speaker 1 (03:20:39):
Win texas And until i'm eve, Been wrong i've been
saying this the Entire time i've been doing, the Show
and i've been right every.

Speaker 7 (03:20:45):
Single time, so like prove, Me.

Speaker 2 (03:20:49):
Wrong texas, you KNOW when i see a Flip for,
Texas coming i'll call.

Speaker 1 (03:20:54):
It OUT but i don't.

Speaker 2 (03:20:55):
Right, Now, nope, Yeah yeah i'm not saying it'll never
happen because ghipographically, probably well at some point, like less
they really succeeded their, genocide dreams but that ain't happening
now on.

Speaker 1 (03:21:09):
This, cycle.

Speaker 20 (03:21:11):
Finally let's talk about another one of these, redistricting cases
and one related To The supreme court ruling On The Voting.
Rights Act, on tuesday a federal court Blocked in alabama
congressional house map Drawn by republicans in twenty. TWENTY three
a three judge panel found that the drawn map was
intentionally discriminatory based. On race just two, weeks Ago The

(03:21:36):
supreme court cleared the way for this same map to
be used in the twenty twenty six. Midterm Elections alabama
republicans have since labeled the district court panel activist. To
judges it's worth taking a look at who these. JUDGES
are i think The eleventh circuit judge was first appointed
to a district court By One. Ronald reagan the other

(03:21:57):
two district judges were Appointed, by trump and this exact
same three judge panel had already found this exact same
map to be intentionally racially discriminatory. Years ago this new
district court order also rejects the state's claims that the
twenty twenty three map was just drawn, with partisan not.

(03:22:21):
Racial intent write, in quote the purpose of the twenty
twenty three plan was to distribute black voters across districts
to dilute, their votes at least in part because they, are.
Black unquote this latest ruling is part of a specific
redistricting battle that has stretched on for, five Years with
republican maps being repeatedly, struck, down, appealed redrawn and struck.

(03:22:43):
Down Again now i've seen some confusion on the exact
series of, events here like What The supreme court has
ruled on which maps are. Being USED so i want
to just briefly go over the sequence EVENTS as i.
Understand it in twenty, twenty one a district court ruled
a new map drawn after the twenty twenty census Likely

(03:23:04):
violated section two Of The Voting. Rights Act The supreme
court upheld this decision in twenty, twenty three barring the
use of this twenty twenty. One map After The supreme,
court Decision the alabama legislature adopted a new map in twenty,
twenty three but a federal court again found that this
newer twenty twenty three map also Likely violated, section two

(03:23:26):
And The supreme court let a ban on the use
of this map go through by declining to block, the
order but they did not rule on the, map itself
so the court appointed a special master to draw A
New alabama house map to use. Going forward in twenty,
twenty five following, a Trial The district court officially Ruled

(03:23:48):
that alabama's twenty twenty three congressional map did in Fact
violate section two Of The Voting, rights act finding the
map was quote an intentional effort to Dilute black alabama's
voting strength and evade the unambiguous requirements of court orders
standing in.

Speaker 7 (03:24:03):
The, way.

Speaker 20 (03:24:05):
Importantly The supreme court had yet to rule on the
actual twenty twenty three. Map itself After The district court's
ruling in twenty, Twenty five alabama did appeal To The,
supreme court but they delayed consideration until After the. Louisiana
case as, we know that ruling effectively nullified Much of
section two Of The Voting, rights act establishing that intent

(03:24:27):
of racial discrimination must, be shown not just discrimination as
an effect in the drawing of. Voting districts but after,
That ruling alabama Asked The supreme court again for a
quick appeals decision before the state's scheduled primary and to
put the lower court's order barring the use of the
twenty twenty three map on hold considering their recent ruling

(03:24:48):
In the.

Speaker 6 (03:24:49):
Louisiana case And.

Speaker 20 (03:24:50):
On, may Eleventh The supreme Court granted alabama's emergency shadow,
docket appeal vacated the order blocking the use of the
twenty twenty three, district map and sent the case back
to the lower court for further review in light Of the.
Louisiana ruling so that's, A lot but remember that the

(03:25:11):
district court already ruled that the twenty twenty three map
intentionally discriminated based, on race the veried requirement set By
The Supreme court's. Louisiana ruling so when the district court
reconsidered the case this, past week they found That the
louisiana decision only strengthened their original ruling That THE alabama

(03:25:32):
gop map was intentionally discriminatory and deluded. Black voters this
is pretty Much what sort wrote in her dissent when
she argued that there was quote unquote no reason to
send the case back to the district court because that
court had already Concluded that alabama quote violated the Fourteenth
the medment by intentionally diluting the votes of black Voters.

(03:25:52):
In alabama that constitutional finding of intentional discrimination is independent
of and unaffected by an any of the legal issues
discussed In the louisiana. Case unquote so that's essentially. What
happened that's essentially What The district. Court found the three
judge panel also rebuffed opposition to the court ordered Map

(03:26:13):
in alabama on the basis that it bears similarity to
the map at the center Of the, louisiana case writing
that it's their understanding Of The supreme court's recent ruling
that race as a districting criterion cannot be used when,
drawing maps but that, quote unquote relevant racial data may

(03:26:33):
be considered for a, lawful purpose like checking that the
drawn maps Comply With Voting rights. Act precedent it's not
that racial data is used in the drawing, of maps
but after the maps, are drawn they can be checked
against racial data to make sure they Comply With Voting rights.
Act Law The district court Wrote that louisiana's black population

(03:26:54):
is not as concentrated As, in alabama requiring a black
majority district to s through multiple metropolitan areas to scoop up,
black voters Whereas in alabama it's quote unquote relatively easy
to draw a reasonably configured majority.

Speaker 7 (03:27:10):
Black.

Speaker 20 (03:27:10):
District quote we are unsurprised that race blind relief is
available here but was. Unavailable, there here it has been
consistently obvious to us from our visual assessment of the
geographic Dispersion of alabama's black population and statistics about black
population centers in, the state that black Voters in alabama

(03:27:31):
are relatively geographically. Compact unquote, so essentially it's actually pretty
difficult to draw a map that separates out the black
population to be a minority.

Speaker 7 (03:27:42):
Force in all.

Speaker 20 (03:27:43):
Voting districts as for, demonstrating intent the district court found
That the alabama legislature only enacted the discriminatory map after
knowing it would dilute the impact of, black voters and
by having prior knowledge of the district print, racial impact
including from federal, court findings and then passing the, map

(03:28:04):
anyway that itself. Shows, intent furthermore the judges wrote that
the cases quote enormous record contains no evidence of a
partisan motive unquote in the drawing of the twenty twenty.
Three map i'll quote again from the. Recent order quote
in the, simplest terms the sequence and substance of extraordinary

(03:28:27):
legislative events against the backdrop of the, legislature's knowledge compels
us to conclude that the legislature doubled down on racially
discriminatory vote dilution after we And The supreme court found
that it was racially discriminatory. Vote dilution the same evidence
leaves us no room to conclude that when the legislature did,
all this it had party politics. In mind the only

(03:28:49):
available intent evidence tells us that consideration of race were
the key. Reason unquote So the Court ordered alabama to
use the alternative court ordered map already used in the
twenty twenty four election for the Rest of alabama's twenty
twenty six, congressional elections after which the legislature can then
create a new congressional. District plan and, of Course the

(03:29:13):
State of alabama has already appealed this To The, supreme
court and we will wait and see if they decide
to hear.

Speaker 10 (03:29:20):
This, case yeah this will continue to be a thing
we're going to have to, report on and we, should
say for some. Time, rightly yes this is going to
result in. Massive, changes yeah we will continue to.

Speaker 20 (03:29:30):
COVER them i guess it is interesting that this is
the First time i've seen a court really like Interpret
the louisiana ruling for like another case to a like
this is this is like an over seventy page. Like,
ruling yeah and they discuss like Where the louisiana case
does apply and where, it doesn't and what it means
to quote unquote consider race in the evaluation of. These

(03:29:54):
districts and it would, be interesting, you know If The
supreme court has had to, hear this if they're going
to a this court's interpretation of, their ruling or if
they're going, to, say no you got it wrong and
strike down. Their interpretation but, you know, right now they
did really outline like what it means to use race
in reference to, these districts and how it cannot be

(03:30:16):
used in the drawing of, the, district right but that
it can be considered to make sure that it complies.

Speaker 1 (03:30:22):
With the voting.

Speaker 20 (03:30:22):
Right sack and that does not mean that it was
used as a instrument in the actual drawing of.

Speaker 7 (03:30:27):
The.

Speaker 20 (03:30:27):
District YEAH and i think that that specificity is an
interesting part of the.

Speaker 1 (03:30:32):
New.

Speaker 10 (03:30:32):
RULING definitely i think like, it's if like Any Other supreme, court,
decision right things tend to sort of bounce around before they're.

Speaker 7 (03:30:41):
Entirely.

Speaker 20 (03:30:41):
Clarified YEAH like, i said this is like a a
five year, long case all stemming from the twenty. Twenty,
census yeah and the maps That the republicans have tried
to tried to draw, after that, which which as, Multiple
Courts supreme court And The district court have, already INCLUDED
the gop tried to intentionally dilute the votes Of black,

(03:31:02):
alabama's right and because of the way that the black
population is Concentrated, in alabama there needs to be an
intentional effort to, do, That right whereas In this, louisiana
case the drawing of districts had, you know had to
like looked more gerrymandered to create these black, majority districts
Whereas in alabama's case that's not. Really necessary and, in
fact a lot of the maps that were referenced in

(03:31:23):
testimony were like. Algorithmically, generated huh. That's interesting it wasn't
like then you get the crayons out and like through
all Lines Like calbridge jerry did back in. The, day, no,
GREAT great i. Love that i'm sure we can expect
much more wonderful algorithmically. Generated election, well, Yeah content what

(03:31:43):
a time to.

Speaker 10 (03:31:44):
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