It Could Happen Here Weekly 241

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but
you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome to it could happen here, a show that is
sometimes about surveillance, digital privacy, in all the ways that
little black rectangle you keep in your pocket could be
used against you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I am joined
by Cooper Quentin, a security researcher and senior public interest
technologist at the EFF or the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Cooper, Hello, Hey, Garris, I'm happy to be here again.

Speaker 5 (00:54):
Yes, always happy to have you on.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
And you will be especially useful today because we're going
to be talking about geo fencing because last week the
Supreme Court ruled that geofencing qualifies as a search under
the Fourth Amendment. Now, before we get into what that
means and why it's important, all.

Speaker 4 (01:12):
Very normal terms explicitly and understands.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Before we do that, let's start to define some of
our terms here, starting off with what is geo fencing.

Speaker 6 (01:23):
Yeah, So the geofence warrants, which are what this case
is about, are warrants to a tech company, usually Google,
that say, give us all of the identity account ideas
that had phones in this set of geographic coordinates and

(01:44):
this time period. So they send that to Google. Google
sends back a list of all of the accounts they know.
I'm usually anonymized at first, but that were in that
you know, geographic square from you know, I'm a to
time be This.

Speaker 4 (02:02):
Is actually not something that Google does anymore.

Speaker 6 (02:04):
They've recently taken steps to no longer technically be able
to respond to these warrants, which is a rare w
for Google.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
But that is a geofence warrant. That's what's at the
heart of.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
That, Yeah, I mean, And the goal is essentially to
identify what phones and by extension, which people were present
around the time a crime was committed to narrow down
a suspect from a very large pool of just random
people in an area.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yes, exactly exactly.

Speaker 6 (02:32):
So there's a couple of ways you can think about this, right,
if there was a protest and you want us to
know their identities of all the protesters, you could get
a geofence warrant for the area of that protest for
the time of the protest. Or if there was a
bank robbery which happens here, right, you get a geofence
warrant for two locations you think the bank robber might

(02:52):
have been in, and then you are able to narrow
it down from the you know which identities show up
in both places, right, and those that's your list of
primary suspects.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
So the reason why we're talking about this today is
because on Monday, June twenty ninth, in a six' to three,
ruling The Supreme court found that police getting access to
location data through a geofence does constitute a quote unquote
search under The Fourth. Amendment and this this finding could
have really big impacts on digital privacy. Rights the fact
that geofencing is A Fourth amendment search means that the

(03:26):
practice of geofencing is subject To Fourth amen restrictions and. Protections,
now there's also been some, people i, think maybe exaggerating
certain aspects of this, ruling because The court did not
rule that geofence warrants are themselves, unreasonable just like in.
General that's, Right that question is still is still going
to be determined by The Fourth. Circuit but what the

(03:49):
court did find here also should not be minimized or
it also is pretty. Significant to quote from the majority,
quote an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy in
records about his self, phones, location and police intrude on
that constitutionally protected interest when they demand the, information even
though for only a limited time and from a third
party tech company. Unquote, well we'll get into some of

(04:12):
what that's referencing in terms of like third party tech companies.
Later as you, mentioned this case does revolve around a bank,
robbery AND i want to get into some of the
context of this because it also will help understand sort
of the ongoing case regarding the specific geofense warrant that was. Used,
so in twenty, nineteen someone made off with almost two

(04:36):
hundred thousand dollars from a credit union and this suspect
was seen on their phone prior to the. Robbery so
police Asked google to hand over the location data for
all cell phones or the devices in a one hundred
and fifty meters radius around the bank within an hour
of that. Robbery nineteen anonymous users were first. Identified police
then narrow that down to nine users who they got

(04:57):
more information from From. Google they tracked their location for
a longer period of time before police then requested personally
identifying information on three, users which they then used to
arrest the. Suspect so the suspect eventually pleaded, guilty but
it was like a conditional plate because they were still
challenging the evidence that was obtained through the geofense, warrant

(05:20):
citing A Fourth amendment violation arguing that the warrant authorizing
the location data search was, invalid and this claim made
its way through the district, court to the appeals court
to The Supreme, Court and we'll get into that in a.
Bit you already laid out some of the details of
the specific like geofense warrant that was. Used it has

(05:43):
this three step. Process first this big, pool then a smaller,
pool and then personal identifying information on the smallest. Pool
one thing that is really interesting to me is that
the process for setting up this warrant was set up
with the help Of. Google they like worked together to
make this process back when this was still like an

(06:05):
emerging investigative avenue like, five, six seven years.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
Ago, yeah that's.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Right and, also as you've, Mentioned google's location history feature
operates differently now the information that is being collected is
stored on the user's. Phone, yeah they don't have the
same type of access that they had back in twenty
nineteen in which this case.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
Emerges that's.

Speaker 6 (06:29):
Right they are no longer able to respond to geofense,
warrants which is. Great this does not mean they can't
respond to other types of, warrants and this doesn't mean
that other companies won't respond to offense.

Speaker 5 (06:38):
Warrants, YEAH i.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Guess do you want to discuss a few of the
different ways in which location data is?

Speaker 5 (06:43):
Collected, yeah.

Speaker 6 (06:45):
Certainly so there's there's a couple of. Ways, LET'S i
guess sandbox this entirely just to cell phone location because
we don't want to go off on attention about licensed
plate readers or other no tracking. Mechanisms but one of
the big ways that that people have been that's kind
of been on people's minds lately is advertising location. Data

(07:08):
so this is like the product, weblock which is owned
by this, company Pen, link WHICH i recently bought a
contract with and several other force law enforcement agency to
buy contract. With The Citizen lab just put out a
pretty great report about.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
Them but the way that they get their.

Speaker 6 (07:25):
Data is through a combination of advertising APIs from. Applications,
basically so when an application on their phone wants to
show AN, ad first it sends a request to what's
called a real time bidding, database and it sends a
request with a unique idea for your phone called a
mobile AD id or, made and some information about you

(07:48):
which can include your. Location and then, companies any random,
Company you OR i could set up a company to
sit up these real time bidding centers and just kind
of gather all the data and never make any bids
or that, data never spend any, money just gather all
that data of pairing people's mobile advertising idies whilst they're location.

(08:09):
Information and this is exactly what weblock. Does so what
they do is they sell this information to. Police police
can then you, know buy access to this. Information and
this is another thing that gets confused with geofencing a,
lot but it's a different type of. Geofencing they can
sort of draw a circle around a specific area and
weblock will show them all of the information they have

(08:33):
about phones that have been in that area recently or
during a specific time.

Speaker 4 (08:38):
Period and that's not a geofence.

Speaker 6 (08:40):
Warrant that is a geofence search of a, database which
which is essentially the same Thing google is doing on
the back. End but there's no warrant involved in this.
Case but that's a very that's a very common method of.

Speaker 7 (08:54):
Tracking the other, way the other way that they get
data is just through code that they be in certain
ad libraries that will get them that data sort of
the same way about without going through the real time bidding.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Process but it's still data being given to.

Speaker 6 (09:10):
Them basically by ad libraries that they pay a bit
of money for to the ad company or.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Whatever in a little, bit we'll discuss some of the
implications of The Supreme court's, findings specifically all like the
third party. Doctrine but do you think that there's a
possibility that the ruling in this case might be able
to be used to put up challenges towards something like
advertising location.

Speaker 5 (09:36):
Collection.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, Again i'm not a.

Speaker 6 (09:38):
Lawyer legal strategy is quite outside my general domain of,
expertise but it certainly seems to me like there should
be an opening, here.

Speaker 4 (09:50):
The big loophole that law enforcement has been.

Speaker 6 (09:55):
Exploiting, wellefully we call it the data broker, loophole, Right,
yeah has been a the problem for a. While there
was a bill called The Fourth Amendment Is not For Sale.
Act it passed The house and then died in The. Senate,
unfortunately it was proposed By Senator Ron wyden in twenty twenty.
One that wasn't attempt to close this. Loophole but given

(10:17):
the wording of the of the opinion, here you, know
specifically around people's location data being very very much private,
data you, KNOW i think that there's a reasonable argument
to bring a case to The Supreme court about the sale.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
Specifically of cellular location.

Speaker 5 (10:35):
Data, yeah because they did rule.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
That the third party doctrine which we can get into
does not apply to cellular location. Data so THAT'S i,
MEAN i think that's a pretty big point in favor
of shutting down the loophole for location, data for it
would not shut down the loophole for other.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Data but, yeah it is frustrating how we have to
kind of take this one step at a, time and
that's that is a sort of frustration that actually The
Supreme court.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Voiced, yeah reformism is Rough.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
Man, this like case by case app by app, approach
does not actually make very much. Sense before we get into,
that let's go back to the bank robbers initial initial

(11:28):
challenge based on The Fourth. Amendment so a district court
did agree that the search violent of The Fourth, amendment
but it did not actually block the data from being
permitted as, evidence because the court found that the police
officer's reliance on the data was not quote unquote objectively,
unreasonable allowing the quote good faith exemption to the exclusionary rule.

(11:49):
Unquote this is basically because the technology was still new
and because there was few leads in this, case the
district court found that the officer's use of this was
not necessarily, unreasonable so they have this good faith, exemption
which which could become a problem later or might, not we'll.

Speaker 5 (12:10):
See.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Now this was appealed to The Fourth, circuit who went
back and forth a, bit initially ruling to one that
the geofense did not even qualify as a, search so
a warrant wasn't needed in the first. Place, now one
judge dissented from, this arguing that the warrant issued was
quote so lacking in particularity and probable cause that it
was invalid. Unquote, now this too could become important later.

(12:32):
On the Full Fourth circuit penalryheard the case, again but
were divided seven to, seven half ruling the warrant violated
The Fourth, amendment but most justices still found that the
exclusionary rules good faith exception applied in this, case and
that then leads us back to the Supreame, court and
the ruling Last monday only actually covers The Fourth amendment

(12:55):
aspect of the. Case they're not ruling on the good faith.
Exemption and the fourth question itself is split into two.
Issues did the police conduct a search under The Fourth
amendment by.

Speaker 5 (13:04):
Acquiring location data From?

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Google and, second did the multi step geofense warrant issued
in this? Case did that warrant make this search? Unreasonable,
now the court only answered this first question did it
actually qualify as a, search and handed off the second
part of the question to The Fourth Circuit court Of,
appeals who will then also rule on the good faith

(13:28):
exemption aspect of this. Case to quote the majority, quote
we leave it to The court Of. Appeals the further question,
whether given the warrant, issued the search here was, reasonable
meaning that each of its steps was properly described with
particularity and found to be supported by probable cause, unquote
just as taking the rights out instructions for The Fourth,

(13:50):
circuit most of which relate just to The Fourth amendment,
itself saying that The Fourth amendment protect against qute, unquote
the unreasonable search and seizures of, persons, houses, papers and affec,
x and requires that warrants may only be issued upon
probable cause and must particularly describe quote the place to
be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
Unquote and this particularly requirement's going to be a big

(14:12):
part of this of this case going, forward because to
issue a, warrant a judge must determine if there's quote
unquote fair probability that the evidence of a crime would be,
found and that the search is of an appropriate. Scope
this is quoting from the majority again quote that it's
carefully tailored to its justifications and will not take on
the character of the wide ranging exploratory searches that the

(14:36):
framers intended to prohibit. Unquote and this is the specific
key issue with these geofense, warrants the fact that they
cast this large dragnet over just everyone in a certain
area at a certain.

Speaker 5 (14:47):
Time that's.

Speaker 6 (14:48):
Right you're basically, searching you, know potentially hundred is potentially
thousands of, people right if you imagine a geofense warrant
In downpenn meant at or, something right, like you're treating
everyone as a suspect right off the. Bat and THAT'S i,
mean that's the problem with any any sort of mass,

(15:09):
surveillance any sort of dragging that. Surveillance but that's exactly
what this. Is and SO i, mean this is this
is a good ruling by The Supreme. Court, Right it's not,
perfect but it's surprisingly good given This supreme.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Courtance, now a lot of this ruling is based on
a previous, ruling where it's built on a previous ruling
from twenty, eighteen this case Called carpenter. V United, states
which was also a very important ruling that have affected
the way police can gain access to cell phone location
history through cell site.

Speaker 6 (15:44):
Towers, yeah so So carvener ruled that police required them
weren't to get cell site location, information specifically historic cell
site location INFORMATION csli is the recording for THAT csli
is basically the police go to a phone company and

(16:06):
say tell us who was connected to these towers at this?

Speaker 4 (16:10):
Time, right tell us what towers this phone connected?

Speaker 6 (16:12):
To and the core rule that that was essentially equivalent
to putting a ankle monitor was their specific. Language yeah
one everybody in THE, us right that that was that
find ring location. Data and so they ruled that you
needed a warrant to get that location, data which was
a really excellent. Ruling this case was brought to The

(16:34):
court on the basis of That Carpenter versus The United states,
ruling and this reaffirmed and. Expanded the big difference was
that the information That bloonbardment had gotten from the phone
companies in this case covered a larger amount of, people
but The chattree case covered a much smaller area and

(16:56):
a much smaller amount of. People but The court decided
that this ruling still applied even in the smaller, case
which is. Great it's you, know really it's it's narrowing it, down,
right which is how The Supreme court.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
Works. Right you get a broad ruling that then.

Speaker 6 (17:08):
Sort of exceptions to that, rule and like you, know
the limits of that end up being, tested which brings
us back to what we were saying, Before, Right, so
like the next. THING i think the next thing to
test is does this that's the spring POINT i think
this ruling applies to purchased. Data, yeah it seems like
maybe they hinted that a little, bit but it's you,
know it won't be clear until somebody actually brings that

(17:31):
case to The Supreme.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Court one of the most promising sentences in the ruling, is,
quote a new technology should not transform what individuals had
reasonably thought they could withhold from the. Government, yeah AND
i mean that sort of reasoning, Then and there's there's
actually a lot of it throughout the majorities of. Ruling
but like there's there's a lot of sentences like that

(17:52):
that could that could be really really useful going. Forward,
Yeah and like you, know a carpenter was itself based
on another surveillance case called The United states Versus, jones
which covered another method of tracking physical location on, movements
and this was through using A gps to monitor a, vehicle,
Right and that was a five four, ruling so very.
Close but in that, case the court found THAT gps

(18:14):
tracking does qualify as The Fourth amendment search because quote,
unquote individuals have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the
whole of their physical, movements, Right and essentially because of
how difficult it was to at the time secretly monitor
and track the movements of a, vehicle including on and
off public, roads so including on private. Roads, yep it

(18:36):
was then reasonable to expect a certain level of privacy
because of how difficult this. Was but upon the proliferation
OF gps, trackers the ease in which this type of
government surveillance could be, achieved you, know changed. Dramatically and
that's the context in Which Justice keigan is writing this
sentence that a new technology to not transform what individuals
had reasonably thought they could withhold from the.

Speaker 6 (18:57):
Government, yeah that's, Right AND i MEAN i think that
that's a that's a really important sense for a lot of.

Speaker 4 (19:02):
Things.

Speaker 6 (19:03):
Right that's an important sentence for the fight against liceless
slate readers and And block and the you, know other
companies in that. Industry that's an important sentence for cellular location.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
Information. Right like this is a great, ruling, right but
it leaves open.

Speaker 6 (19:18):
The whole, issue LIKE i was, saying of you, know
being able to buy surveillance, information, right and like that's
what enables licensed plate, Readers that's what enables companies that
surveil social. Media that's what enables tools like weblock that
sell location information from ad, tech, Right and it does
seem like they are they are hinting that maybe they you,

(19:40):
know that they are ready to rule on. That to,
me it's a very it's it's a very self apparent,
argument right that that just because locally bought something doesn't
mean they should get around the.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
Warrant the terrible part of this is, that you, know
we will.

Speaker 6 (19:55):
Probably have to argue in technology in its own rights
unless you, know we had a Functioning congress and.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Well they were able to pass very Popular let's not
get too. Ridiculous let's not, Right let's keep things grounded
in reality.

Speaker 6 (20:12):
Here, yeah, Yeah i'm Gonna i'm gonna hope for more
realistic goals like totally.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Anarchy, NO i mean, absolutely it would be great to
see some of this stuff just be. Enshrined but there
is there's a lot to look forward to considering this,
ruling AND i think to that, point before we, close
let's talk about the third party doctrine, specifically what is
the third party?

Speaker 6 (20:30):
Doctrine so the third party doctrine is a doctrine in
THE us law that states that people don't have a
reasonable expectation of privacy in information that they've given to
a third, party such as a phone company or a
bank or a tech.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
Company. Yeah, essentially this is how historically law.

Speaker 6 (20:54):
Enforcement has gotten information from bone companies or from, banks et.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
Cetera are tech companies without or. Warrant and the heart
of this ruling is that.

Speaker 6 (21:04):
The justice has said that cellular location data being the
equivalent total surveillance to that of an inkle.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Monitor, yeah the third party doctrine does not apply to
cellular location.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Data, yeah, because like the third party doction was set
up specifically in reference, to like the types of financial
information that you will hand over to a, bank right
to do business at the, bank or by dialing a
phone number the phone company that knows what the phone number. Is,
right like those from the specific instances that established third party,
doctrine and a third production was not applied In carpenter. V,

(21:40):
us and So kagan wrote that for the very same
reasons it should not be applied to location history from tech,
companies and even more, specifically because the types of information
that location history From google had access to was even
more intimate and fine tuned than what you could get
from just picking a cell.

Speaker 6 (21:58):
Tower that's, right because the location information From google is
based on not only YOUR, TPS i mean it is
YOUR gps, location which is fairly, accurate but also the
like triangulations of your location From Wi fi devices And
bluetooth devices around. You whereas the location you get FROM,
csli which was what was at issue In, carpenter is

(22:22):
going to depend on how dense.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Cell towers are in the area you're, in because it's
just mathetical equation of like what your signal.

Speaker 6 (22:31):
Strength is to your nearest free cell, towers and you
can kind of triangulate somebody to a broader area based on. That.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well AND i, mean and location history from From google
at this point was you, know tracking people's movements like
every two. Minutes, yeah and could operate on a longitude
and latitudes like they could not only just figure out
where you were on a, map but if you were
in a, building what floor you were on that building
like much a much a much more fine tuned to look.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
Right altitude as.

Speaker 8 (22:59):
Well.

Speaker 5 (22:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah part of What carpenter found was that cell phone
location information is quote unquote quantitatively different from telephone numbers
and bank. Records, yes and so because of that, finding
they applied that same logic to this. Case AND i
want to read through kind of two paragraphs that is
similar to the line about how you know people's expectation

(23:23):
of privacy should not be changed because of technological. DEVELOPMENTS
i think there's two lines here that that could become
really important going forward in terms of how we understand
like even just the notion of digital. Privacy, quote cell
phone location information is not truly shared as one normally
understands the, term because cell phones and the services they
provide are such a pervasive and insistent part of daily,

(23:46):
life indispensable to participation in modern, society that a person
could hardly help but generate a trail of location data
in no meaningful. Sense the court, thought does that mean
the person voluntarily exposes to any third party a comprehensive
dossier of his physical?

Speaker 8 (24:02):
Movements, yeah so.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
That's just as keke and kind of combining the analysis
for this specific case with the analysis For. Carpenter and
then she goes on to, write, quote the government's app
by app feature by future method of Granting Fourth amendment
protections misapprehends the very nature of modern cell phone. Use
pretty much everything a person does on a smartphone requires
some kind of opt. In the point of carrying cell

(24:26):
phones is to use what's on, them As carpenter, said
to use the apps and the services they. Provide that
is what has become a pervasive and, insistent even indispensable
part of daily. Life and so that is What carpenter
insulated from the third party.

Speaker 5 (24:39):
Doctrine, yeah my.

Speaker 6 (24:41):
Short term memory is, Terrible So i've forgotten the exact,
wording but the part where she's addressing how piecemeal it, is,
right and how like She's, yeah this applies to all,
Apps this applies to all uses of this location.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
Data never shall this be subject to the third party, doctrin.

Speaker 6 (24:56):
RIGHT i think that that is pretty damning or companies
that are currently selling THE stata too law ENCORES i
should be pretty damning.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Anyway, yeah and like the idea that through simply using these,
devices which are now necessary from our, life using these
does not mean that we're voluntarily giving this data over
to companies and by, extension the. Government they don't just
have free access to it because we are using the
things that are necessary for daily. Life if they want
access to, it they have to go through the proper

(25:26):
channels which are laid out in The Fourth. Amendment, yes
you have to get a warrant at, Least, yes and
so to close talk about kind of what this could
mean going, forward, right because the question of whether the
particular geofense weren't used in this bank robbery, case if
that was reasonable or, unreasonable now goes to The Fourth,
circuit who will determine if probable cause was established to
support the scope of the, search and if the warrant

(25:49):
satisfied the particularity. Requirements considering the fact that it cast
a broad dragnet over a whole area rather than being you,
know fine tuned to a specific suspect or even a
group of. Suspects kagan wrote of the, warrant, quote how
the officers would make their choices at the second and third,
steps how they would pick the user's subject to more intense,

(26:11):
Scrutiny the warrant said very, little. Unquote this is kind
of part of like the instructions in which they are
writing to The Fourth. Circuit, now the, suspect the bank
robber suspect compared the geofense warrant to a quote unquote
unconstitutional general warrant lacking and probable, cause with steps two
and three of the warrant leaving quote too much authority

(26:34):
to police officers and too little to the magistrate. Unquote
so what that's saying is that in this like three step,
warrant when the police are able to determine who in
the broad pool of people caught in the drag net
who to investigate, further that choice was just up to police.
Officers that question was not laid out in front of a.
JUDGE a judge did not authorize.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
That aspect of the.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Search that was just up to the discretion of. Officers
that is part of his argument that this was a constitutional. Violation,
now of course that's not the government's, tick. Right the
government claims that the information was quote unquote particularized information
From google's, database based on probable cause to believe That
google had the information that would help solve a. Crime
they also argue that the discretion given to officers in

(27:18):
the execution of steps two and three of the warrant
fell within the bounds of. Reasonableness, so going, forward when
The Fourth circuit rules on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of this,
warrant they will also consider what The District court and
The Fourth circuit themselves have previously ruled on they will
reconsider the quote unquote good faith.

Speaker 6 (27:36):
Exemption, yeah the good face exception is a doctrine in
THE us law that allows, generally evidence obtained without a
warrant is an admissible in. Court the good faith exception
allows for evidence which was obtained with a faulty warrant
where the law enforcement agents had reasonable constable believe that

(28:00):
it was a valid warrant and they they thought they
were obtaining a lot of evidence would have in good
faith with a valid, warrant that that evidence can still
be admissible in court even if the warrant is found
to be. Invalid so that's what they're that's what they'll
be evaluating in this. Case and THEN i, mean that's
what they've already decided, on and we'll have to decide on. Again,

(28:21):
yeah even if this warrant is invalid or even if
this data is, invalid because the second and third step
didn't have a warrant associated with, them and this still
be admissible in his case under good base.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
Exception and The Supreme court does have like instructions for
how how they want the force circuits to reevaluate that,
question knowing that they've already ruled on it, before but
they are instructing them based, on you, know the legal
opinion that is outlined in the, majority that they do
have to reapproach this question with these new insights from
The Supreme. Court there, is you, know evidence that rulings

(29:07):
like this have impacted the way police operates, surveillance specifically
by collecting information from like cell. Towers you are kind
of the the expert in cell site, simulators and THERE'S
i think reason to believe that The carpenter ruling also
affected the way that cell site simulators were, used just
by it not being the particular focus of that, ruling
if you want to kind of as a very ending,
note kind of discussed the rayhunter, project and you know

(29:30):
how some previous rulings have like impacted the way that
that type of surveillance has kind of fallen out of.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
Fashion, yeah for.

Speaker 6 (29:37):
Sure SO solfi simulator is also known as stingrays or.
Mccatchers these are face cell towers that police set up
to locate a specific person's cell phone OR i should
say a specific cell phone which is often associated with
a specific person with.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
A very, fine granular level of.

Speaker 6 (29:59):
Detail at the FF i and some of my colleagues
have created a product called Rat hunter to get an
idea of how often cell side simulators were.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
Being used in THE.

Speaker 6 (30:11):
Us, specifically what we were concerned about was that law
enforcement could use a cell side simulator to spy on
and identify the people present At First amendment protected, Activities
so find out who is at a, protest find out
who is going to an abortion, clinic find out who

(30:32):
is showing up at a.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
Mosque, Right so that was the big concern we, had.

Speaker 6 (30:37):
Was that they were being used for that instead of
or what police said they were using them, for which
is man punts, basically or you, know identifying that somebody
is in a specific location BEFORE spat team does a
raid on that. House so for the last year or,
so we've had hundreds of people all over the country

(31:01):
bringing these devices around with them to protests and just you,
know as they go about their daily lives to find
out sort of what the lay of the land is
and how often these are being.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
Used and the.

Speaker 6 (31:16):
Reasoning for this is that we were getting the impression
that a lot of activists seem to have the impression
that cell size emulators were being used at every, protest
and that police were driving around with one of meds
in every, car, Right and there was a lot OF i,
think fear and uncertainty and doubt and sort of ope
wisdom and misinformation going.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
Around so we wanted to be able to get some
real facts on the ground to clear it.

Speaker 6 (31:41):
Up and so over the last, year what we've seen
is we have seen evidence of cell size stimulators.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
Occasionally what we have not seen is a preponderance of.
Them from what we're, seeing they're.

Speaker 6 (31:57):
Not being used constantly all the time, everywhere, Right they're
being used much more rarely than most people.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
Think and we haven't seen really hardly any evidence of
them being used at.

Speaker 6 (32:11):
Protests what we've seen is them being used kind of
sometimes around major. Cities we've seen them being used outside
THE us a, bit but inside THE, us we have
not seen.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Them being used for sort of the mass surveillance reason
that we've.

Speaker 6 (32:31):
Feared that has been backed up by looking at the
warrants for CeAl sizing leators that we've been able to
get access, to been backed up by talking to people
who are close with law enforcement and who you know
who understand kind of how law enforcement is actually using.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
These what we're hearing and what we're, seeing the sort
of evidence of is.

Speaker 6 (32:54):
That cell sizingulators are being used with warrants now Because
lawns went by and large thinks that The carpenter ruling
does apply to cell size simulators because that is cell
site location.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
Information it's the same type of.

Speaker 6 (33:15):
Data it is the same exact type of, data, right
and so it makes sense that a warrant should apply
to that as. Well before when they figured a warrant
didn't apply to, this right BECAUSE i don't, KNOW i
don't know what the mental gymnastics were, there. RIGHT i
think it's possible that these were used a lot. More
but now it seems like most lawfirm agencies have from

(33:36):
the conclusion that the federal government has come to a
conclusion that this technology does require a warrant and that
it's more useful or locating a specific person than identifying
people in a specific. AREA i, think in addition to the,
warrants it makes technical sense because if you want to
find the people who are in a specific, area site

(34:00):
stimulator is a, expensive, cumbersome complicated tool for doing. That
when the alternatives are sending a geofence more.

Speaker 5 (34:11):
To, google Asking google just to tell, me, yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:14):
Asking google to tell you for apting the phone, company
or a tower, dump getting a warrant for a tower,
dump which is where you ask them to tell you
everybody that was connected to.

Speaker 4 (34:25):
A specific, tower, yeah at a specific period of. Time
that is something that is not addressed by any of
These tower dumps are.

Speaker 6 (34:33):
Still a thing you can get with a, warrant, Right
so that's that's an, Option and then of course all
of the other methods of non cell phone based, surveillance,
right face recognition is an.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Option license pre readers are an.

Speaker 6 (34:45):
Option, Right, so there are so many easier ways to
get the identities of everybody in a specific.

Speaker 4 (34:51):
Area it doesn't make sense to use the stimulators for.
That and that's what we're.

Speaker 6 (34:55):
Seeing it seems like what we're being used for a
vast majority of things is identifying that a specific person
is in a specific house before a no knock rate is.
Executed no knock rans are highly. PROBLEMATIC i am not
a fan of the spat. Teams there's a lot of issues.
There but if they're going to, happen LIKE i, guess, yeah,

(35:17):
like let's let's make sure we're rating their right house
so they can be sure of which dogs they're killing before.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
They, YEAH i, mean swatting has become a huge harassment
tool for people just to deploy against someone that they
don't like or an influencer that they find.

Speaker 5 (35:33):
Annoying and that is a real issue as.

Speaker 6 (35:35):
Well solifinny thing leaders are not the biggest issue, there,
right the, yeah existence of swat teams and how liberally
they're used is the much bigger.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
ISSUE i.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Think so based on How carpenter seemingly affected the police's
reticence to use cell site, SIMULATORS i, think like we've,
discussed there's hope that this new ruling might also be
able to be applied to some other surveillance methods that
that will only really become clear over. Time there's there's
one particular That i'm also interested, in is like keyword,

(36:04):
warrants where police will just ask a tech company to
like get information on all users who typed a specific
thing into a search, bar, right, Right and so there's
aspects of this recent ruling that could possibly apply to
something like that as. Well but you, know Despite kagan's
annoyance at the you, know apt by app way in
Which Fourth amendment protections are. Granted organizations like legal rights

(36:25):
organizations including like THE ff you, know might still have
to kind of approach this from an f by app
basis to get like confirmation that these things are subject
to The Fourth. Amendment so it's something that we will
see over time.

Speaker 6 (36:39):
Until and unless we can get comprehensive federal privacy, law
which again is Not i'm Not i'm not holding out
hope For congress to pass any privacy bills anytime anytime, soon.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Not the immediate, future but we could hope one, day,
Right and that is a real, thing same thing with
like data. Centers this is something THAT i think people
should try to build a mass movement.

Speaker 5 (36:59):
Around.

Speaker 4 (37:00):
Yeah, absolutely it is happening to some.

Speaker 6 (37:03):
Degrees at the state, level, Right california has a pretty
good privacy. Law it's not, perfect but it's certainly better
than the non existent federal. Ones montana became the first
state to close the loophole allowing law enforcement to buy
data from the third.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Parties, Right so it's it's there.

Speaker 6 (37:24):
Is hope that at least at the state, level we
can try to start closing these, loopholes you, know as
a band aid until the federal government maybe steps up
in four to eight to twenty.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
Years you, know we'll take.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
That you know it is it is very rare to
have and it could happen here episode that ends with,
uh there is some.

Speaker 6 (37:46):
Hope in, general it's very rare to have a conversation
with me that ends with any of the true at
all so.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
True, No i'm, Sure, Yeah i'm sure we can have
you want to talk about pegasyst to bumbas alow to
get at some.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Point, ABSOLUTELY i have many ways to buy you.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Out but where can people find your work online if
they want to hear more about Ray hunter and all
the research you do at e F. F.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah you can find me At Blue. Sky i'm at
kuper q dot com On Blue sky Or.

Speaker 6 (38:16):
Mastodon if you're that flavor Of linux, nerd you can
find me at trooper q At masto Dot packers dot
town on, mastdon or you can find me at E
ff dot org of, course WHERE i publish all of
my writings and that we highly recommend checking out our
surveillance self defense guides at S sd DOT ff dot.

(38:37):
Org we have the pretty much the, longest the longest
continuously updated technical self defense guides that have ever, existed.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
And they're they're really really excellent. RESOURCE i think they're
my favorite resource that we put. Out so go check
those out as.

Speaker 5 (38:53):
Well thank, you thank. You turn off your.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Phone, hello go, on and welcome to it could happen.
Here my name Is dan Al kurd And i'm a
researcher and analyst Of arab And palstin in. Politics TODAY

(39:17):
i want to talk about, football, soccer, whatever And i'll
just start by, saying, OBVIOUSLY fifa is a, terrible terrible
organization and while there are many heartwarming events in This World,
cup The World cup gets, me gets a lot of.
Us despite, everything there have also been egregious incidents against
players and referees and fans from the Global. South take for,

(39:39):
example what happened to The somali referee who wasn't allowed
to come into THE us to do his. Job he
was kept hours and hours in the airport before being
unceremoniously returned To. Somalia, similarly the head of The Palestine
Football association was denied a visa in to The United,
states not allowed to come to The World cup ON us.
Soil this is in spite of the fact THAT fifa
invited association heads from around the world to, attend and

(40:02):
he did attend the opening game In Mexico. City or
one of the worst, incidents if you can call it,
that the way that The iranian team has been. Treated
they weren't allowed to stay in THE us despite the
games they were playing in this, country were constantly made
to fly back To mexico after every. Game clearly they
were put at a severe disadvantage because they weren't allowed
to rest and recuperate like the other. Teams and, Listen

(40:25):
i'm not going to say it as a, conspiracy but
having not won but three goals discounted by var eventually
leading to their elimination from the, tournament just adds insult to.
Injury but LIKE i, said of, course there are many heartwarming.
Stories for me as A, palestinian it's been great to
see how Much palestine keeps popping. Up despite the fact
that the environment in The United states is much more

(40:46):
hostile on this issue than the Last World, cup people
are still talking About palestine and advocating For. Palestine thousands
Of bosnian, supporters for, example Turned toronto into a sea
of blue as they marched towards the stadium for The canada,
match Chanting Free, palestine and they did that in a
number of Places, Englewood. Seattle they also Chanted palestine within

(41:06):
the stadiums in multiple. Games at That canada, game activists
also on fold a Kick israel out OF fifa banner
and it makes sense really when you understand the experience
Of bosnians with genocide themselves not too long. Ago, Similarly
moroccan fans Held palestinian flags or Wore morocco jerseys with
the Word palestine on, it and this showed up ON.
Tv at the very opening match In Mexico, city Pro

(41:29):
palestine demonstrators gathered to form a giant Human palestinian, flag
And South korean fans Brought palestinian flags to the, tournament
honoring a promise they made during their qualifying when their
fans had, chanted will Take palestine to The World cup
with us In. Gaza palestinians are watching the games. Too
spain is the favorite team these days because of the
government's position on The Israel palestinian conflict and because of

(41:53):
superstar Player Lamg, jamal who has been unapologetically Pro. Palestine,
obviously the genocide that has unfolded and go and the
war in killing that continues in The Middle east in
both occupy territories and In lebanon are part of the
reason why this issue seems to be ever. Present but
it didn't start with the. Genocide the story Of palestine

(42:13):
at The World cup is more layer than, that and
the twenty twenty Two World cup In kutar was a
good demonstration of Why palestine keeps popping up and What
palestine represents to, fans especially air ones then and everyone.
NOW i know it might seem strange to be talking
about this now a few years after the, fact But
i've been thinking about it a, lot especially given everything
that has unfolded, since AND i think The World cup

(42:34):
moment is one of those events that gets more, interesting not,
less as time passes back then as it does. Now
it's showing us something, important not just About, palestine but
about the limits of what governments can actually control when
it comes to what their own people. Believe so let's
get into. It palestine did not qualify for the twenty
twenty Two World, cup The palastinian national football team was

(42:57):
nowhere Near doha in an official, capacity and yet arabs
from across the region and across the world began referring
To palestine then as the thirty third, team Because palestine
was everywhere at the twenty twenty Two World. Cup there
Were palestinian flags draped over shoulders and. Stadiums crowds erupted
into the chance Of, maltani The palestinian. Anthem After arab teams,

(43:18):
won One tunisian fan ran onto the pitch mid match
for The palestinian, flag and When morocco pulled off their
historic upset Against spain so it's the First african And
arab team to ever reach the semi finals of A World,
Cup moroccan players ran to the crowd and held up
The palestinian.

Speaker 9 (43:32):
Flag this was.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Significant morocco had just signed The Abraham accords With israel
only two years prior to this, game and their players
didn't seem to. Care israeli journalists who traveled To kata
to cover the tournament reported being coldly, received, followed and
in some cases physically shut out of interviews by crowds
Of arab. Fans some of these reporters were caught on
camera claiming to be from other countries Like france Or

(43:55):
switzerland in order to get people to talk to, them
some of them masked their logos from their. Stations israeli
media at the time expressed something between confusion and. Outrage
one reporter, remarked And i'm paraphrasing, here but he basically
said that the hostility wasn't just coming from governments as
they had, assumed it was coming from ordinary. People and

(44:16):
this surprised, them but it shouldn't have. Now none of
this was purely. Spontaneous that's the part of the STORY
i find most interesting and the part that gets maybe
the least. Attention months before The World cup, began A
quatari activist group Called Qatara youth opposed a normalization qayo
n started. Planning they were founded in twenty eleven and
by twenty twenty, two led predominantly By quatteri, women they

(44:39):
had been working for over a decade to push back
Against klatar's slow drift towards normalizing ties With, israel which
is something The quatari government had been, entertaining largely under
pressure from The United states and from its goal of
neighbors and in a country where over eighty percent of
people a post normalization With. Israel this, Organization Quartari youth
had a, base but they had to work carefully because

(45:00):
have unsanctioned civil society. Organizations there's all sorts of restrictions
on independent, activism extremely severe. Anflutha but they saw The
World cup as a, window an opportunity to turn what already,
existed which was, deep widespread popular solidarity With, palestine into something,
visible coordinated and impossible to. Ignore so they got to.

(45:20):
Work they Persuaded kato's national team captain to wear A
kafia patterned armband before the opening, match and then there
was this hashtag the captain's armband Is, palestinian which started
trending On Arabic. Twitter they reached out To quatari, influencers
from prominent journalists who amplified the campaign across social, media
and they called on local businesses to display signs that

(45:40):
they were compliant with the, boycott the investment sanctions. Movement
they also ran a kind of counterintelligence operation Against israeli,
media because they were the ones that began Identifying israeli
journalists and their logos on social, media flagging them so
That arab fans at the tournament knew who to. Avoid
and this is how those videos Of israeli broadcasters being
turned away kept appearing. Online they also organized fans to

(46:02):
chant For palisin at the forty eighth minute of every.
Match that's not. Random that's a reference to nineteen forty
eight and to The nekba where close To William Past
indians were expelled from their homes with the founding Of Israeli.
State key members Of katarith said the goal was to
Turn arab fans from sympathizers into, participants and they were
honest about something else. Too this only worked because the

(46:23):
ground was already. Ready as they put, it the campaign
would not have succeeded had it not been for people's
own proactive support of The palestini. Cause and that's worth
sitting with for a. Moment the organizing, mattered the strategy,
Mattered but the reason it's spread so quickly so far
is that there was already a fire. There katariuth just
lit the.

Speaker 6 (46:40):
Match.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Now to understand why people were so, upset you have
to understand the abraham of. Courts i've talked about it
on this podcast. Before the normalization agreements broken by The
trumpet ministation in twenty twenty Between israel and THE uae
The United Air emirates In bahrain and Later sudan And.
Morocco these deals were sold as historic, breakthroughs as a
new era of, peace and in terms of official diplomatic,

(47:12):
relations they were. Breakthroughs they were, historic but there was a.
Problem nobody asked the, people and these accords didn't solve.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
Anything.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Now air public opinion surveys have consistently shown that the
vast majority Of arabs oppose normalization With israel absent a
resolution to the question Of palestinian statehood and the ongoing,
occupation and in the most recent polling before the, accords
it was something like eighty eight percent Of arabs across
thirteen countries that rejected normalization With, israel and nearly two
thirds of those cited the occupation Of pasadian land as their.

(47:43):
Reason only seven percent cited something like religious. Objections the
fear had always been that if you normalize relations With
israel without a resolution to The Israeli palasadian, Conflict israel
would not have any reason to try and resolve the
conflict or address the grievances Of, palestinians That israel perhaps
would become more aggressive if the guardrails were. Off so

(48:05):
what The Abrahamic cords actually. Did from the perspective of Ordinary,
arabs was deep in the sense that their governments wouldn't
listen to, them were willing to sell them, out sell
out The palestinians for economic and security arrangements that disproportionately
benefited ruling classes, anyway and THE us is really security.
Architecture i've written about this, academically and WHAT i found

(48:26):
is a kind of paradox at the heart of these
so called peace. Deals peace initiatives that don't address the
root causes of conflict don't actually create. Peace they create
a different kind of, violence a structural, violence because they
maintain the root causes of, conflict and they enable authoritarian
practices by. Governments So israel shares a lot of tools, surveillance,
technology propaganda, framework security, cooperation both material and discursive, tools

(48:50):
and these have a way of turning up in the
hands of governments for pressing their own. Citizens Now i'm
not saying The United Arab emirates Or bahrain needed encouragement
to repress their own, citizens but it's just another added,
layer another way that the red lines, shift and new
ways that these governments can attack their own citizens and
their own. Activists for, example and about the activists involved

(49:12):
in anti normalization. Activities after the accords became targets of surveillance,
operations and people who spoke out about the deals faced travel.
Bins In, bahrain civil society organizations were newly. Restricted the
quote unquote peace came with the repressive apparatus baked, in
which is exactly why when thousands Of arabs gathered and
has public squares to watch The World. Cup the energy

(49:33):
Around palestine wasn't some just like emotional, sentiment and it
wasn't a. Relic it was. Fresh it was the anger
of people who had just watched their governments make deals
they never asked, for and deals that were used to
oppress them and not solve the postaining. Issue there is
a concept that academics and activists have used called sports.
Normalization the idea is that, sports because they're presented as

(49:55):
a political or maybe as, entertainment as a space above,
politics they can be it used as a soft avenue
for normalizing relationships that would be otherwise politically. Controversial israel
has long pursued the. Strategy the logic, is If israel
And arab athletes compete, together then this image of coexistence
replaces the political reality of. Occupation you don't need any

(50:17):
kind of solution or diplomatic. Agreement you just need enough
footage of An israelian moroc and shaking hands on the
pitch to make people feel like things are moving in
a good. Direction got the youth were very explicit about targeting.
This they hosted panels on sports. Normalization they released a
statement pointing out That western political boycotts Of russia extended
to sporting events after the invasion Of, ukraine and nobody

(50:37):
then complained that sports were being mixed up with, politics
and to, them the inconsistency was. Glaring that mixing sports
with politics was apparently fine when it was about Sanctioning,
russia admittedly very, appropriately but somehow inappropriate when it came
To palestinian, rights and this double. Standard i've encountered it
constantly in my, work the insistence that The pastadian cause

(50:59):
is uniquely, problematic uniquely in need of being kept out
of polite conversation or. Unreasonable this insistence falls apart the
moment you compare it to any other conflict where The
west has chosen a. Side, now The World cup made
that visible in real time when The palasinian flag showed
up in a stadium In. Doha it wasn't just a
symbol of. Solidarity it was an. Argument it, said this
issue is not. Resolved we have not moved. On it

(51:22):
doesn't matter what The abraham records said or how many
photo ops it's going to make any of this go.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Away.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
NOW i want to dwell for a minute On, morocco full.
Disclosure that's the TEAM i. SUPPORT i hope they go
as far as. Possible But morocco is an interesting case
AND i think it illuminates something about the limits of
top down. Normalization LIKE i, said The moroccan government signed
The Abraham, accords and the deal actually INCLUDED us recognition
Of moroccan sovereignty Over Western, sahara Which morocco has long

(51:49):
occupied itself a case of a people's right to self
determination being traded away in this diplomatic agreement. Situation so
it was a completely cynical arrangement all. Around and yet
When morocco Beats spain and reached the semi, finals their
players held up The palestinian. Flag When morocco Beat portugal
and the streets of robot And casablanca, erupted The palstinian

(52:09):
flag was there, too and fans In doha who had
traveled from Across North africa and The Middle east were
Wearing Palstenian kafia's chanting For. Palestine, now The moroccan government's
deal With israel did not transfer to The moroccan. People
and this is the key insight from The World, cup
the one THAT i keep coming back to that governments
can sign, papers but they can't really sign on behalf
of public. Sentiment and these countries are not, democratic so

(52:31):
any kind of push to do something like this seems
like a betrayal to their own, citizens and they can't
normalize what has not been normalized in the hearts and minds.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
Of their own.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Citizens there is a kind of arrogance in The Abraham recurts.
Framework the assumption is that if you get the right,
signatures if you get the right photo op on The
White house, lawn that the conflict can be ignored at
that The palstinian cause can. Recede but The World cup
was a direct refutation of that. Assumption Now i've been
thinking about all of this in the context of everything
that has happened since the side In, gaza the daily,

(53:01):
images the death, tolls the wholesale destruction Of gazan, society
and the ongoing question of what normalization means now and
whether any of Those abraham courts frameworks can survive what
the world has watched happen. NOW i do think it will.
Survive these governments do not care about what happened In.
Gaza but what it shows is that the fears around
The abraham recurts were completely. Founded ignoring The israeli pacinating

(53:25):
conflict would lead to an escalation in the. VIOLENCE i
think The World's cup moment was a preview back in
twenty twenty. Two it told us something about where Popular
arab opinion actually, was not where governments claimed it, was
and not Where western media assumed it, was but where
it actually. Was and it showed us that organized strategic
activism can channel that sentiment that something visible and politically

(53:45):
costly for the forces of normalization. Now Kotar youth post
A normalization was a small, group and they were operating
under real restrictions in a country that doesn't allow independent civil,
society and they still managed to turn a global sporting
event into one of the most visible expressions Of pastenian
solidarity in. Years and that matters not because a football,
tournament a soccer, tournament is going to solve.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
Anything it.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Doesn't palestinian families don't get their homes back because people
flew a flag in a, Stadium but movements build over
time and through moments of, visibility through the accumulation of,
pressure and through the refusal to let the issue, disappear
into a manufactured consensus that was never real to begin.
With and today in twenty twenty, six this is not
specific To air. Republics Even western publics have seen their

(54:29):
governments ignore, genocide have seen their rights recede as their
government's ally to protect genocide in a variety of. Ways
Now i'll end with something a little more. Personal WHEN
i watched Those World croup crowds back in twenty twenty,
two WHEN i saw all these Different, Arabs moroccans And
tunisians And, saudis people from countries that have varying in
complicated relationships with this, issue all waiving The palestinian, FLAG

(54:52):
i felt a kind of. Hope and it's not. Naive
it's not the hope that this will be resolved soon or,
easily but the hope that's Says palestinians are not, alone
and the cause is not. Forgotten and the silence that
has been imposed on this, question attempted silence top down
for so, long is not the consent it pretends to.
Be governments can sign a, chords but they can erase

(55:14):
what people, know and they cannot sign away what people.
Feel when they watch a team lose and a flag
goes up in a stadium and thousands of people start.
Chanting palestine keeps showing up uninvited at every table that
tries to exclude, it AND i think it will keep doing.
That thank you so much for listening To it Could Happen.
Here I'm Dan, Algirt.

Speaker 5 (55:45):
Welcome To It Could Happen? Here a podcast about firing
your boss and keeping them fired and then making their
not be. Bosses that was an extremely long and slightly
cumbersome intro from your host To Mio. Loong but with
me today to talk about how to do such a
thing Is Reisa, Freiheit tabby And daniel from THE iww

(56:06):
who are part of a tour talking about just. That
so all three of, you welcome to the. SHOW, iiky
thank you for having. Us, Yeah i'm so excited me as,
WELL i.

Speaker 10 (56:21):
Mean i'm excited for every TIME i do something like
this Because i'm very much an attention Horror i've few
as though as an, ACTRESS i kind of have to.

Speaker 5 (56:31):
BE i, mean, yeah that is kind of you, know
you do you? ARE i, guess, like, yeah trying TO
i don't, Know oh my, god how DO.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
I do a better? TRANSITION i don't?

Speaker 5 (56:41):
Know you have to ask my? Doctor, okay never, mind
we're leaving. It the part about how to do a better.
Transition we're leaving. It you'd have to ask my.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
DOCTOR i like.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
This this is great speaking of a union that has
a unbelievable number of trans people in it these. Days.
Yeah so we have on the show talked a little
bit about the industrial workers of the. World we have
had SOME iww unions on the. Show but, yeah today

(57:14):
we're also going to be talking about sort of the
history of the union and something cool that the union is.
Doing SO i guess to start, off can you three
give a kind of brief introduction to, like you, know
like the one sentence like what is this? Thing and
then what is this tour that you're?

Speaker 6 (57:31):
Doing?

Speaker 9 (57:32):
Yeah so this tour is The Decentralized tour there's not
like a small number of like experts so to, speak
we're touring in the country giving a speech or talking about.
Things it's more like each INDIVIDUAL iww branch that is
participating is planning and organizing its own. Event but we're
coordinating on a national level and trying to promote this

(57:54):
very broadly to the public because THE iww hasn't done
a very like public, event especially a national one like
this and quite some, time and so we feel like
the moment is calling for something like.

Speaker 5 (58:06):
This, yeah and SO i guess we can now, ask,
okay like what actually is THE, Iww and how do
we explain to people that it is in fact called
The Industrial workers of The, world not The International workers
of The. World and also that it is not just
a union of people who work in heavy.

Speaker 11 (58:23):
Industry, well we're The Industrial workers of The world because
we organize. Industrially we want to organize all the workers
in each industry and not by their.

Speaker 5 (58:33):
Trade, yeah.

Speaker 10 (58:35):
Exactly so an EXAMPLE i always, use you, know since
I'VE i mean so much student, dad what happens when
you're getting your masters and you're doctorate is say there's
a school university instead of what traditional unions, do which,
is you, know you have the teachers, union and then
like the janitors, union and you know the thas union

(58:58):
and all these separate union is like a cafeteria worker,
union et. Cetera you just have one big. Union that's
one of the things THE iww is. Code you just
have one union across all these. Things so everyone from
the teachers to the thas to the janitors to everyone

(59:19):
in between is in the same, union in the same bargaining.

Speaker 5 (59:23):
Unit and we don't just stop at one.

Speaker 11 (59:25):
Industry the goal of THE iww is to organize all industries.
Industrially capital is organized this, way and workers really ought
to do the same.

Speaker 10 (59:36):
Exactly we have everyone from sex workers to, actresses to
carpenters to especially back in the, day a lot of,
miners you, know everyone you can think. Of as long
as you don't have hiring or firing power and aren't
a copper active duty, military you can join THE. Iww,

(59:58):
Yeah and that's.

Speaker 5 (59:58):
Something THAT i THINK i think we've got to on
this show a little, bit which is, that LIKE i,
mean obviously it depends a lot on where you, are
but like a lot of the organizing THE iww does
is with service workers and service workers and shops that
every other union looks at and, goes, well you're not
worth organizing because we can't get enough. Money you'r members
out of. It and that's SOMETHING i don't, KNOW i

(01:00:19):
think is really valuable in this moment where, yeah like
unbelievable numbers of people are doing service. Work that's like
What that's what the economy is built. On if you're
committed from the start to organizing all sectors and all
workers and all, industries you don't end up in a
place where you just right, off you, know like entire
sectors of the economy that are a lot of times

(01:00:40):
the people who most desperately need to.

Speaker 9 (01:00:42):
Organize, Yeah and that's like exactly why THE iww was
born in the first, place was because the trade unions
back in the nineteen hundreds were ignoring all of the unskilled,
workers so to, speak like the miners and like the dock.
Workers but THE iww all the way back nineteen oh
five was, saying what is still saying today is that

(01:01:03):
all workers need a. Union And i'm a, Bartender i'm a.
Server i've been one since i was sixteen years, old
my whole working, life And my experience as just a
working class person has drawn me to THE. Iww it's, Philosophy,
yeah because no other union really cares about, us but
thew is. There and like you, said like that's what

(01:01:24):
most workers in this or not, most but a large
chunk of workers in this country are service. Workers it
makes up like a third of the.

Speaker 11 (01:01:30):
Economy, yeah and, moreover the industrial workers of the world
teach us the tools to make change in our.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
Workplace.

Speaker 11 (01:01:38):
Right other unions are something of a service, model, right
they themselves become a service for their clients who are the.
Workers but what THE iww teaches is that it's on, us,
right we need to make the change in our. Workplace
we have to analyze the, conditions really understand the imbalance
of power that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
The bosses have over us as wage, workers and change.

Speaker 11 (01:02:01):
Them and that means talking to our, colleagues, learning, analyzing
and then taking, action direct action to make the.

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
Changes that we.

Speaker 11 (01:02:10):
Want because only, us we're the ones who know what's
best for our, workplace what's best for our, industry, right
and we're in a position to make that change when
we organize horizontally in that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
Way.

Speaker 10 (01:02:22):
Yeah the thing THAT i really love about THE iww
is that it's a very good teacher in many. Ways you,
know so many, people you, know aren't fortunate to have
the incredible amount of education THAT i have in you,
know really being able to study the material conditions of,
capitalism of really kind of getting at the center, of you,

(01:02:44):
know how change is. Made AND i find that with
THE iww in the way we, organize no classroom in
the world can teach, you as well as your own,
experience that the way to revolutions not electing some. Politician
the way to the revolution isn't handing your power to
some union. Bureaucrat the way to the, revolution to, socialism to,

(01:03:06):
communism to industrial, democracy to the abolition of the wage
system is direct. Action is doing it. Yourself is shop floor.
Organizing and when workers realize that they have power over
their own lives and destinies at, work they realize that
they have power over all of. Society once we come

(01:03:28):
together and decide upon, something there is no employer who
can stop.

Speaker 8 (01:03:34):
Us you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:45):
Know Big Bill, haywood who's a very very FAMOUS oldww,
member has this line where he, Goes i've never read,
capital BUT i have its stars on my. Back many
memes have been made of. That, yeah and it's it's
something THAT i don't, know like SOMETHING i do appreciate
kind of About like my experience with the union has been,

(01:04:06):
that like it's a place where you, know the theoretical
stuff that you're doing right is stuff that's drawn from
just the immediacy of, Like, okay we have to get
a bunch of people to show up to a meeting
so that you, know we can do this. Union we
have to like talk to people and we have to
like get people organized to be able to do direct.
Actions we have to be able to like get people

(01:04:27):
to show up in this place and like do all
of the sort of like you, know just the like
the the nitty pretty technical work of like fighting a class.
Struggle but it's this place where, like, yeah you actually
get theory that's drawn from action and is sort of
unified with it because you just you have to do it,
right like you have to get anyone to do the thing,
constantly and there's no one else who can do it for.

(01:04:49):
You there's just you and your fellow. Workers and it's,
yeah it's you and your fellow workers and you're fighting
against the, boss and it it rocks and Then once
you feel, it you're.

Speaker 11 (01:04:59):
Hooked, yeah, right once you really get to experience that
that sort of, camaraderie that closeness you actually get with
your co, workers when you know your comrades and, struggle
you're working together towards. Something it's way bigger than any, department,
right or institution or. Anything it's a matter of creating
the world that we want for, ourselves the world that

(01:05:21):
like we are entitled as workers as a creator of
all this wealth and all of these great things that
that humans are capable.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
Of, like that's that's what The wobblies are all, about
in my humble, opinion.

Speaker 9 (01:05:33):
Just kind of just bringing up for, me like one
of the most remarkable things about THE Iww, historically like
in it's, heyday it had nearly half percent of all
workers in this country within its, ranks and like The
wobbley philosophy like spread like wildfire across the, country and
it was just spread by regular rank file workers who

(01:05:54):
were empowered.

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
And believed in.

Speaker 9 (01:05:56):
Something, yeah and you, know it's it's sad to say,
that like today a lot of workers don't even know
what THE iww, is what it. Means it's like what
it's done so like that is part of the reason
why we're doing the firebus words to like actually become
a phenomenon again and to have people recognize us and, like,
no the wildly way of.

Speaker 10 (01:06:16):
Organizing you, know, YEAH i cannot tell you the amount
of times you, Know I've i've been talking with you,
know other union organizers and they, said, wait THE iww still.

Speaker 5 (01:06:28):
Exists, yeah that's the thing happens a, lot or even.

Speaker 10 (01:06:31):
Worse they don't know about it at. All and, again
as a historian of our union and somewhat long time
Member i've been a member since twenty, nineteen it really
pisses me. Off pissed me off to the degree that last,
year for one hundred and twentieth, ANNIVERSARY i produce and
performed in a wabversary live. Stream we had people from

(01:06:55):
four different countries and multiple different branches just call into
the show shout out the caveat In New York city
they hosted. Us and that kind of just really feeds
into why we're doing Fire Your, boss BECAUSE i know
all of us want THE iww to be like known
and you, know not just as a union that THE

(01:07:18):
us government, killed which by the, way they failed to,
do but as a vibrant force that is an alternative
do not only you, know wage, slavery but unions as
a service and you, know not unions as you and
your coworkers and your.

Speaker 5 (01:07:36):
Comrades, yeah and that's SOMETHING i think comes up a
lot in, organizing which is like a lot of the
history of what the union is not just sort of
the history of LIKE i guess what you would call
like The heyday in the nineteen hundreds and like you
know through that's like the nineteen, twenties but like the
modern history of the union has just been suppressed or.

(01:08:00):
DISAPPEARED i think people now are kind of getting an understanding, that,
like there was A starbucks union before the Current starbucks
union that like aaw. ORGANIZED i think people tend to
think of it as like it was like some shops
In New, york and it's, like, no, no it. Wasn't
it was all over the. Country there was a whole
bunch of shit that they. Did there were enormous numbers

(01:08:22):
of workers, involved and it's a thing that like it's
both from from a historical perspective but also from the
perspective of like just generationally we tend to lose like
movement knowledge as as each generation comes down because a
lot of the stuff just isn't passed.

Speaker 10 (01:08:37):
On no one knows The internationale, anymore, Lame no one
knows The internationale.

Speaker 5 (01:08:44):
Anymore, yeah but it's not even just. That it's like
there's stuff that like happened in our lifetime that like
people you probably have met were involved with that like
is just. Gone like the EXAMPLE i always talked about
on this show And i'm gonna keep talking about until
every single person in the left was about it was
The Wahaka. Uprising we're like, yeah like also Like wobbli's

(01:09:04):
like went through this and we're in. It but it's, like,
yeah like people In mexico like took a Major North
american city and held it longer than The Paris commune.
Did and this was in two thousand and. Six LIKE
i guess maybe there are some of you, now horrifyingly
who weren't alive for. That but, like nice way to
make me feel. OLD i. Know it's a Namer the

(01:09:25):
history and possibility of, STRUGGLE i think like just gets
lost in ways where people suddenly don't realize that like, yeah,
no like in in your, lifetimes people formed giant assemblies
and took control of like a Major North american city
and held it for. Months like that's the thing that
we all lived.

Speaker 11 (01:09:43):
Through it's a long, memory, RIGHT i, mean it's a
powerful weapon that we have when we actually remember these. Things,
yeah when we really learned from them and we realized that's,
ourselves that is our, history that is a people's, history.

Speaker 5 (01:09:56):
Right we are learning somebody else's.

Speaker 11 (01:09:58):
History were living right in the world of the ruling, class,
right and we just need to realize that we're in
the position to change. It we're the ones who do,
it who make the history and really create the world
we want in the shell in all of, this like you,
know buckering that's going on around the, world it's on.

Speaker 5 (01:10:16):
Us While i'm talking About mexico to talk about a
very different part Of, MEXICO i do you want to
mention like maybe MY i don't know if it's like.
Heir like one of the pieces Of wobbley like history
THAT i really like THAT i think never gets talked
about is the fact, that in a similar way that
like what happens, today there's there's a lot of connections
between workers in like workers In, california workers In mexico

(01:10:37):
and there's a bunch of people moving back and forth
across the. Border there's workers moving, around and there was
a whole bunch Of Mexican wobbleys of various, kinds and
a whole bunch Of wobbley's like went over and fought
in The Mexican revolution because it was it was the
thing to.

Speaker 12 (01:10:52):
Do.

Speaker 10 (01:10:53):
Yeah the collaboration was to the point that multiple locals
in various states In mexico and Also california And, arizona
they were literally like, merged so it was literally like
the same local across you, know national.

Speaker 5 (01:11:10):
Borders, yeah and If i'm remembering, correctly like THE iww
like took a Few mexican cities like in the north
because they were the people who were just doing the uprising.

Speaker 10 (01:11:20):
There, yeah put them and their allies in The parti
De Liberal, mexicano which do not be confused by the,
name was an anarchist. Group that is the whole history
in and of itself.

Speaker 5 (01:11:33):
One of the all time funniest Things i've ever seen
of just, yeah we named ourselves A Liberal party Of,
mexico but were. Anarchists but just incredible stuff going on
in the nineteen.

Speaker 10 (01:11:42):
Hundreds it was a very different.

Speaker 5 (01:11:45):
Time, yeah speaking of very different. Times, yeah do you
want to talk more about sort of what is going
to be involved in this tour AND i guess also
like how people can get involved with, it learn and
hopefully like start organizing and fighting in their.

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
Workplaces.

Speaker 9 (01:12:04):
Yeah so the rough curriculum or agenda for the tour
has like four or five primary like. Sections but LIKE
i said at the beginning of this, conversation like it's
a decentralized, Tour so each branch is going to do
it a little bit, differently but roughly it's going to
be first like, people we're going to try to like
talk with people who, attend like see what people's current

(01:12:27):
conception of a union. Is just like kind of talk
about unions broadly and how people perceive, them and then
transition into talking about the IWW's way to do unions
and solidarity, unionism which doesn't necessarily rely on recognition from
the state or, Capital like we recognize ourselves as the,

(01:12:47):
union you, know we take direct. Action we're very, democratic very,
caring you, know talking about, yeah the IWW's way to
do unionism and, industrially like how do you do industrial,
unions and then and moving into how unions can be
a revolutionary force and how like we're facing all these
things we're up, against like THESE fbi rates and multiple

(01:13:10):
like cities and states across the. COUNTRY ice is like
literally murdering people in the. Streets we've like got genocides
going on all over the. Place and by taking back
control of our labor and shutting shit, down we can
be a revolutionary. Force AND i feel like a lot
of people have kind of forgotten about the live movement

(01:13:31):
and so to, speak because of how shitty like these
trade unions can be sometimes and how, bureaucratic and so you,
know we should remember that these are really powerful like
things to be. Doing and then we'll wrap it up
with just talking about like next steps and. Things hopefully
get people out to organizer, trainings just get people connected
to their local, branches make connections with people who are

(01:13:53):
like thinking about the same things about building militant rank
and file unions and.

Speaker 5 (01:13:58):
Stuff, yeah, yeah talk a little bit about the organizer,
trainings BECAUSE i think that's a really really cool thing
with THAT aw does that people don't really know about it. All.

Speaker 9 (01:14:07):
YEAH i really love the IWW's organizer. Training we have
AN ot one on one organizer training one on one
Called building The, committee and it's a two day training
kind of like a big crash course into how to
build a union from, scratch like within your, workplace how
to start gathering, contacts how to start having like those

(01:14:31):
initial conversations with worker your fellow, workers and how to
develop your co workers into, organizers and how to build
power in the workplace and shift that balance of power
from the boss to the. Workers and it's very different
than like other union organizer trainings because a lot of
other trainings are basically like training you how to do

(01:14:54):
card check, campaigns like how to talk to your, coworker
get them to sign a card and then you never
talk to them again kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:15:00):
Thing but we're not interested in.

Speaker 9 (01:15:01):
That we're interested in like building real relationships and like
building bill power with our, coworkers and that's what the
training is all.

Speaker 5 (01:15:08):
About, YEAH i think it's fun both untwo levels of.
One I've i've been to one of these and it's
very very. Good and the second THING i think is
very funny is like the other unions that like suck
less in THE, us like part of what has happened
is they've adopted a bunch of the trading.

Speaker 13 (01:15:22):
From one of the amount of Times i've seen some
union doing something and being like they learned it from,
us it's very fucking obvious the learned it from.

Speaker 5 (01:15:33):
US i will listen to people being like they're giving
a definition of the. Union i'm, like that's the i
W w. One AND i know your leadership doesn't believe
this because it's, like, not that's not how your union.
Works but, yeah you, could you, could you, could you.
Could you can get the original one from the source
that doesn't have in the same way that like a
bunch of the modern trade unions cut out a couple

(01:15:54):
of versus of solidarity forever because they were too. Radical they.

Speaker 10 (01:15:58):
Mutilated are fucking. Bad that chaplain is rolling in his fucking.

Speaker 5 (01:16:04):
Grave that's A. Canaan they stole the song and then
they were, like oh my, god hold on, this like
might teach workers that they don't have anything in common
with their, Bosses like we have to.

Speaker 4 (01:16:15):
Stop we.

Speaker 11 (01:16:16):
Can't there's seven verses, altogether count them seven except something.

Speaker 5 (01:16:21):
Yeah and most most unions sing like five oh if that?
Yeah and you know in the same way that you
can get the original uncut version Of Salary. Forever you
too can get to the organizer training that these other
people are getting bad versions Of.

Speaker 10 (01:16:39):
Yeah fun. Story so this is unrelated to THE, iww
but also. RELATED a few weeks, AGO i was a
part of the Anti Zionist jewish contingent at The Queer
Liberation march In New York, city and of COURSE i
got on the mega phone and led everyone in Singing solidarity.

Speaker 5 (01:17:03):
Forever hell, yeah hell, yeah it's a good. TIME i
hear there's a New Little Red songbook in the.

Speaker 11 (01:17:09):
WORKS i don't know how far along The Committee committee,
is but this has been a mammoth. PROJECT i could
only imagine right producing a New Little red.

Speaker 5 (01:17:20):
Songbook by the, WAY i want to point this out
to speak speaking of other people taking, stuff THE iww
Had Little Red books before The maoist. Did LIKE i
CAN'T i can't say for certain That Maxine don took
that chip from, us but like that stuff is from
way fucking Before maoism. Existed like this is not affiliated

(01:17:42):
those well are.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
FUCKERS i, Mean.

Speaker 10 (01:17:45):
Mao was a was an anarchist before he became A. Marxist,
yeah this is The chinese anarchist movement one hundred years
ago was way stronger than The marxist. Movement like half
the original communist parties in the. World we're founded by former. Anarchids,
yeah and this this has gone poorly for. Them check's

(01:18:08):
notes filtering back to the twenty.

Speaker 5 (01:18:23):
Twenties from the nineteen, twenties where where can people find
where tours are? Happening and yeah and get more. Involved,
yeah we have a. Website It's Industrial worker dot Card.
Co there's two rs in. CARD i don't know if
we can link that like in the description of the.

(01:18:43):
Podcast oh yeah we.

Speaker 4 (01:18:44):
Can we'll make a.

Speaker 5 (01:18:45):
Description, okay.

Speaker 9 (01:18:46):
Cool so, yeah that website will have all of the tour.
Locations right, now there's eight. Locations there might be one
or two more being added in the near, future but
as of right, now it's Like, Portland, Sacramento, Denver, Seattle,
CHICA i Go Green, mountain which is brilliancent for Fine
New York city and excellent C, michigan who are all

(01:19:07):
having locations on this. Tour and that website will have
all the tales like, when, where. Etc hell, Yeah i'm.

Speaker 10 (01:19:13):
EXCITED i also wanted to shout out. Specifically first, Off
i'm the proud chairwoman of The Orientation committee OF, nyciww
actually former branch secretary treasurer Of Northern New jersey before
we merged With New. York but nyciww's having Our Fire
Your Boss tour stop At woodbine In manhattan On august twenty,

(01:19:38):
second starting at. Noon free lunch will be. Provided oh,
yeah so here in THE nyc, area please stop by
and get to meet the sexy trans woman with The transatlantic.

Speaker 5 (01:19:51):
ACCENT i Visited woodbine winning was still In, Ridgewood.

Speaker 11 (01:19:55):
Queens i'm very much looking forward to checking out their
new location and so any of you all they still
have That queen's.

Speaker 10 (01:20:02):
LOCATION i think they've just expanded Into, manhattan.

Speaker 5 (01:20:06):
Right it's been ages.

Speaker 11 (01:20:09):
Now but, anyway if you're In Northern New, england you
could join us at The Public library In, Burlington vermont On,
Sunday august. Sixteenth that Is Bennington Battle, day a state
holiday unique to the state Of.

Speaker 5 (01:20:21):
Vermont do you have anything else that you want to
televerye before we head.

Speaker 10 (01:20:29):
OUT i would say THAT i think what THE iww
does very uniquely THAT i haven't really seen any other union.
Do is, that in my, opinion at our best we
we go contract. List shout out To Stardust Workers. United
they're AN nyciww shop who are the singing waiters and

(01:20:54):
other staff At Ellen's Stardust. Diner and of Course i'm
a fan since I i'm an actress and singer, myself
and of course fellow. Worker but they don't have a.
Contract what they do is they use direct action in
various tactics to exert their power and negotiate with the

(01:21:14):
boss's issue by. Issue they don't use state power to
enforce it at. All there's been no, election there's no contract.
Signed all they did is get a bunch of their
fellow workers to join THE iww and exist as a
bargaining unit and exert power that. Way AND i think
that's very powerful because we aren't relying upon the state

(01:21:38):
to enforce our. Will we're doing it. Ourselves and that's
such a powerful thing when so many people just are
streaming why won't someone save? Us you, know everyone's, like
why won't someone do? Something why won't someone do?

Speaker 5 (01:21:56):
Something wown't someone do? Something And i'm just, like you
can do it.

Speaker 10 (01:22:01):
Yourselves you can make your own conditions better by you
and your coworkers. Alone AND i think that's so special
about THE iww is that that truly is a revolutionary
break from the.

Speaker 9 (01:22:17):
State the thing THAT i would want to end this
conversation with, IS i feel like the labor movement in
The United states has been trying the same thing over
and over again for, decades like ever since The National
Libor Relations act was, Passed like we've been trying this contract,
model like this like service model that we've been talking,
about and it's kind of why the labor movement is

(01:22:40):
as weak as it is, today and like the current
administration is going after like these protections that we, had
and it kind of just goes to show how we
can't rely on these like pennies that the state throws,
us like these, protections they're not really, Real, like so
we need to build our own. Power we need to
be reliant on. Ourselves and there's one quote THAT i

(01:23:02):
have really. LOVED i don't know who said, it but it,
says today's labor, movement which involves the absolute majority of
the global, population along with its allies and marginalized groups and,
minorities must mount an, offensive reviving strategies and energetic dedication
to radical. Methods and that's what we're trying to do
with the firebus story is like return to these and

(01:23:24):
radical methods that worked so, well like, historically we need
to try something.

Speaker 5 (01:23:29):
New so, yeah and something very very new and very
very old at the same.

Speaker 10 (01:23:35):
Time there are some historians that put the estimates of
members of THE iww it's kind of hard to track
due to a lot of the members were migrant. Workers
put it at possibly over a million in the nineteen.
Tens and you, know in my, opinion it's a good.

(01:23:57):
Start you, know let's get. THERE i, MEAN theflcio is
like three four or five, million you, Know I'm i'm
hoping The fire Your Boss tour is the is the
start of, uh you, know great amazing things for our
union because hell, knows millions of, people if not, billions

(01:24:17):
could benefit from.

Speaker 11 (01:24:18):
Us, yeah every worker an. ORGANIZER i hope that's a
step we're, taking. RIGHT i hope everyone that joins us
on this tour is to feel more like an, organizer
feel more like the, leader and really understand what's going
on in their workplace and all around the, world because
that's what we need as we go.

Speaker 5 (01:24:37):
Forward, yeah but that's a good note to end on
and thank.

Speaker 4 (01:24:40):
You thank all of you for coming on the show and.
Talking thank you so.

Speaker 10 (01:24:44):
Much, yeah thank you for having us happy.

Speaker 5 (01:24:47):
Too and hopefully we all get to see each other
like on the front lines of the class war someday.
Soon and WHEN i WHEN i say, YOU i mean
everyone you the listeners, Too, polarity.

Speaker 10 (01:24:58):
Thank you lovely. Listen, also one cannot be an attention
wre if no one is there to listen to.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
Her this is it could happen. Here I'm Garrison. DAVIS
a specter is haunting The United. States last, Year democratic

(01:25:27):
Socialist Zorn momdani beat establishment Politician Andrew cuomo in The
New york mayoral election two, times both in The democratic
primary and The november. General since, then The Democratic socialists
Of america have only grown their power In New York,
City state and The halls Of. Congress Claire valdez Brad
lander And Diara lisa of Vi La chevalier won their congressional,

(01:25:50):
primary unseating Two democrat incumbents and beating one incumbent backed.
Progressive that same, night Seven New York CITY Dsa Cana
dates won Their democratic primaries for The State assembly And State,
senate paving the way to send seven New Democratic socialists
to The New York State, legislature joining the eight socialists

(01:26:11):
already in. Office in, total nine out of the ten
insurgent candidates on THE NYC dsa slate won their races last,
month beating sitting incumbents and establishment backed. Candidates When Hakim
jeffries appeared ON tv at A dsa election night, party
the crowd chanted your. Next the next morning in The Oval,

(01:26:38):
Office President trump commented on THE dsa, Sweep President, trump.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
Great knight For Democratic socialist candidates last night and The
New york. Primaries they swept and knocked out two.

Speaker 13 (01:26:50):
Incumbents you're From New.

Speaker 14 (01:26:52):
York why do you think it is that now the
endorsement Of Zorn mamdani means.

Speaker 8 (01:26:57):
More than the endorsement of.

Speaker 4 (01:26:59):
Hakimja, well they're.

Speaker 15 (01:27:02):
Going radical left and going really you, know you talk
about The democrat socialists you.

Speaker 16 (01:27:07):
Took really it's really a. Communist that's these. PEOPLE i
watched that woman last. Night that's not a, SOCIALIST i know.
Socialist that's like that woman is a. Communist just a.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
Week, prior A dsa endorsed candidate won The democratic primary
in The washington D.

Speaker 5 (01:27:23):
C mayoral.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
Election and A dsa member won the primary for The
ward One City council. Seat, then a week after The
New York city, sweep Another Democratic, Socialist Melot, kiros won
The democratic primary In colorado's First Congressional house, district unseating
a thirty year. Incumbent this sequence of wins rattled both

(01:27:45):
The democratic establishment as well As trump and THE. Gop
Here's trump again in The oval office On june twenty.

Speaker 17 (01:27:52):
Ninth Zara bondani said in an interview this week that
he was open to being the poster child for socialist.

Speaker 18 (01:27:59):
Case are you worried about more socialist candidates across THE?

Speaker 15 (01:28:02):
US i think a big threat to a nation, actually
because it's not. Socialism it's like. Communism they use the
word social democrat because it sounds so, nice but it's
really communism you're talking. ABOUT i think it's the biggest
threat to a nation.

Speaker 4 (01:28:18):
There, is maybe since our.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
Founding President trump spent much of The july fourth weekend
commemorating the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the country attacking.
Communism these are clips From Trump's america to fifty address
On july, fourth and other speeches in press. Conferences from
that same.

Speaker 15 (01:28:37):
Week communism is a loser and it always will. Be
the communist system is the opposite of The american, system
and the communist system has never. Worked our warriors did
not fight communism on battlefields across the world only to
have that menace rear its ugly head right back here In.

Speaker 19 (01:28:58):
America we're not gonna let it, happen because it's like
a cancer that, spreads and you'd better stop at. First
we will never let The United states become a communist.

Speaker 5 (01:29:08):
Country you can be loyal To Karl, marx or you
can be loyal To.

Speaker 4 (01:29:13):
America communism's a.

Speaker 20 (01:29:15):
Disaster it's been proven to be for thousands of, years
under different, names but the same. Thing there is now
a resurgence of the communist menace in our, land including
from newcomers to our country who embrace ideas totally opposed
to our way of life and our great. Success communism
is a mortal threat To american. Liberty it is the

(01:29:38):
greatest threat to our country Including World war, One World war,
Two Pearl, harbor or even nine to.

Speaker 3 (01:29:46):
Eleven as THE dsa has won seats across the, country
the organization has attracted new members after the twenty twenty
four presidential, ELECTION dsa had about fifty thousand members. Nationally this,
MONTH dsa reached over one hundred and twenty thousand, members
a record. High just The New York city chapter alone

(01:30:09):
has over fifteen thousand. Members late last, YEAR dsa allocated
funding to open twenty new offices across the. Country around
The june, primary the zionist extremist Group Canary mission started
specifically TARGETING nycdsa with writeups on all ten of the insurgent.
Candidates Canary mission's ANTI nycdsa article from before the election

(01:30:33):
was titled one Thousand zorans don't threaten me with a good.
Time the article not only attacked THE nycdsa, candidates but
also highlighted how the organizational structure OF nycdsa has established
a template for success by running candidates as a whole
block who can campaign together and then support each other

(01:30:54):
once in. Office QUOTE nycdsa elected officials meet week to
align votes and coordinate. Strategy the machine doesn't.

Speaker 5 (01:31:04):
Stop in all.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
Caps in a post on X The everything app after
The june, Primary Canary mission, wrote Quote New York CITY
dsa is not just, growing it is building the machinery
to turn radical ideology into political. Power the numbers show
the scale the LARGEST dsa chapter In, america roughly ninety thousand,

(01:31:26):
volunteers hundreds of field, leads a candidate, pipeline and coordination
that continues after election. Day this is how a movement
stops looking like protest and starts looking like. Infrastructure New
york is the testing. Ground the machine is already being.
Built unquote and, yeah they're. Right basically everything in that

(01:31:50):
little quote is one hundred percent. True and that is
what's making both the liberal and conservative establishment. Nervous on
the eve Of July Fourthox news ran a segment on
The Kami.

Speaker 21 (01:32:02):
Revolution White House Press secretary Of Caroline lovitt joins, Us,
now The Kammi.

Speaker 5 (01:32:08):
Revolution, caroline did you ever see this?

Speaker 22 (01:32:10):
Coming this is not your Granddaddy's Democrat. Party this is
not the grand Uh Democrat party OF. Jfk this is
a full blown communist revolution that is taking Over Capitol.

Speaker 21 (01:32:21):
Hill if these commies get, in they're going to be
a powerful little. Caucus they're going to hear to blow things.
Up they're not here to Negotiate pentagon. Funding they want
Zero pentagon. Funding they're in here to destroy the. Country
how would the president negotiate with people like.

Speaker 4 (01:32:38):
That i'm not sure you.

Speaker 22 (01:32:39):
Can AND i think that's why The president is being
so bold and warning The american public against this communist
takeover of The. Democrats and As Ronald reagan perfectly, stated
freedom is never more than one generation away from. Extinction
if these communists are given a chance at power here In, WASHINGTON,
dc if they retake the majority In washington away from The,
republicans we will be heading down a communist.

Speaker 3 (01:33:02):
Takeover this concern By Jesse waters Of Fox news was
also the topic of A axios story from a few
days after The New york, primary with quotes from quote
unquote Centrist democrat lawmakers threatening that there's quote unquote going
to be a war if the new members Of congress

(01:33:22):
try to utilize their block to win policy, concessions with
one lawmaker calling the incoming members quote bomb, throwers not problem.
Solvers the idea is that if The democrats win a
Small house majority in the next, election the growing coalition Of,
democratic socialist and left wing populist lawmakers could leverage their

(01:33:45):
needed votes to get concessions from party leadership and wield
an outsized influence on the. Party in this, Story axios
wrote that left Wing house reps quote moving on block
would be able to kill party line votes to get
their demands, met much like the far Right House Freedom
caucus has done the past few. Years Progressive Repdila ramirez

(01:34:08):
Of illinois is quoted in the piece saying that The
Congressional Progressive caucus has a quote responsibility to be the
strongest voter, block to take a stand not for the,
establishment but for working people who send us to fight
like hell for. Them threats of war from Centrist democrats
and cries of communism From Fox news And President trump

(01:34:32):
show a real fear of the growing MOMENTUM dsay is,
having both as an organization and in the ballot, box
and the fear that this kind of politics won't be
contained to big cities in blue. States here Is Mam
donnie being interviewed ON abc shortly after The june, primary.

Speaker 23 (01:34:51):
And you knocked off Two democratic incumbent members Of. Congress
is is this like a unique moment In New york
or is this the beginning of a national?

Speaker 24 (01:35:00):
MOVEMENT i think we are seeing a hunger that is
not just felt By New yorkers but frankly By americans
from coast to coast for a new kind of, politics
one that puts working people at the heart of. It
AND i think for far too, long what we as
a party have been able to say To New yorkers
who are struggling is simply to explain why they're, struggling
not actually offer them a vision for how to make life.

(01:35:22):
Better and these, Candidates Brad, Daria Liza, claire they ran
campaigns that spoke to working people and that said life
in the nation's most expensive city need not be this
way any. Longer AND i can't wait to have them
as partners IN dc and.

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
Network we'll be right back With Mike johnson after this at.
Break three days after THE dsa sweep In New, York
Republican House Speaker Mike johnson gave the keynote address at

(01:35:57):
The faith And Freedom. Conference he essentially did free propaganda
for THE.

Speaker 14 (01:36:03):
Dsa THE, dsa The Democrat socialists Of america sounds so,
innocuous doesn't.

Speaker 12 (01:36:08):
It, no it.

Speaker 14 (01:36:09):
DOESN'T i will say that this is their. Platform, listen
this is actually quotes from their platform that they PUBLISHED
i think about a day or two. Ago you can
find this on the. Internet, okay here's just a sample
of what they're. About they put this on. Paper they're
saying the quiet things out. Loud abolish the Electoral college
or place the two party system with a multi party.
Democracy expand The house Of. Representatives implement proportional representation and

(01:36:33):
rank choice voting in all. Elections abolish well establish public
ownership of the largest corporations and essential industries to ensure
democratic control.

Speaker 8 (01:36:46):
And accountability to the.

Speaker 14 (01:36:47):
People abolish ice and grant amnesty for.

Speaker 5 (01:36:51):
All this isn't the quiet part out.

Speaker 3 (01:36:54):
Loud this is Democratic socialists of one oh one empowering
workers by increasing demo credit control of our own government
and the unaccountable corporations that rule over our. Lives but
here's more From Mike johnson.

Speaker 14 (01:37:07):
In sanctions On, Cuba, venezuela And. Iran Free palestine quote
for a Free palestine With jerusalem as its. Capital end
all military and economic aid To. Israel PROSECUTE us And
israeli leaders responsible for the genocide In. Gaza abolish the
carceral state. Quote redirect police and prison funding to public

(01:37:31):
services as steps towards abolishing the carceral forces of the capitalist.
State y'all it goes on and on and. On defund
The department Of, war replace The president and The Supreme
court with an executive and judiciary chosen and subordinate To,
congress which they're.

Speaker 8 (01:37:49):
Hoping to take.

Speaker 14 (01:37:50):
Over and the last one is abolished The. Senate, now
some of you may agree with. That don't just leave
that one, There, okay it's, Fine i'm.

Speaker 3 (01:37:57):
Kidding the fact that the Sitting house speaker felt the
need to address these proposals signifies a Serious overton windows
shift and opening up of the conversation on ending in humane,
sanctions reforming The Supreme, court defunding The, pentagon and abolishing
the uniquely undemocratic institution of The. Senate will that last

(01:38:21):
one happen anytime? Soon probably, Not But Mike johnson apparently
believes this is a topic worthy of public. Debate this Past,
Tuesday Mike johnson announced that The pentagon is requesting an
additional three hundred and fifty billion.

Speaker 14 (01:38:38):
Dollars you've heard The president talk about how he wants
to effectively double the funding for national. Events, look we
live in dangerous time for finding communism on our own,
chores and we're fighting evil terrorists and tyrants around the.

Speaker 3 (01:38:50):
World, meanwhile also this Past, TUESDAY dsa released the full
version of their new national, platform which is What Mike
johnson was quoting. From this platform is Titled Workers Deserve
more And beyond What Mike johnson has already helpfully. Outlined
it also contains paid family leaf for all, workers a

(01:39:10):
thirty two hour, workweek a living minimum, wage canceling student,
debt universal, healthcare building publicly owned social, housing honoring all
treaties and tribal, sovereignty finishing, reconstruction ending mass incarceration and police,
immunity a federal jobs, guarantee publicly owned energy and transit,
infrastructure ending THE us four, machine a Free, palestine ending

(01:39:32):
all aid To, israel prosecuting those responsible for the, GAZOGENOCIDE dc,
statehood getting rid of, lobbyists dark, money and Citizens united
and publicly financing all, elections while expanding and protecting voter
rights and ending voter, suppression and of, course ABOLISHING. Ice
you can read the full platform in more detail at

(01:39:52):
program DOT dsausa dot.

Speaker 5 (01:39:56):
Org i'll link it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:57):
Below it's not very long and quite easy To it
starts with a preamble to contextualize the goals of the
organization and the purpose of an ambitious. Platform in our current,
Moment i'll quote from.

Speaker 5 (01:40:10):
A section of that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
Preamble, now, Quote if we lived in a classless society
and governed, ourselves we could freely build a world without
war or. Poverty we could build a world where no
one suffers for their, race, gender or, religion and everyone is, free,
equal and cared. For building this world is the guiding
star of our. Movement when we labor for our common

(01:40:31):
good instead of private, profit we can all have a
secure and dignified life and use our time and talents
how we. Wish to achieve this, future our class must.
Organize The Democratic socialist Of america is building a party
whose goal is a democratic society of the working. Class
our enemies are not just individual, bosses but the entire

(01:40:53):
global system of. Capital not just this or that, cop,
judge or, president but the entire anti democratic structure of our.
Society we are workers fighting to transform, society to win
the battle for, democracy draft a new, constitution and create
a Democratic Socialist. REPUBLIC dsa has written this program for

(01:41:16):
ending capitalist oligarchy and creating a real. Democracy some of
these demands may be one under our current, system but
we know complete victory will require building.

Speaker 5 (01:41:25):
A new society from the ground.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
Up we push these demands to their furthest extent today
so that we can fight for their fullest realization in
a socialist. Future, meanwhile let's check in on the. Liberals
on CNN's state of The, Union Pennsylvania Governor Josh shapiro
was asked about the RECENT dsa electoral.

Speaker 17 (01:41:47):
Wins democratic voters In New york chose three candidates back By,
zorammdani far left And Democratic socialist.

Speaker 5 (01:41:57):
Candidates what message do you take from that of about
where your party.

Speaker 25 (01:42:01):
Is you, know those were races and individual districts in
a whole other. STATE i think you're seeing very different
looking congressional races and certainly Different democratic candidates here In.

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):
Pennsylvania that's an interesting point being made By Governor, shapiro
who seems to be ignoring the fact that the first
congressional primary win for A Democratic socialist this year was
In pennsylvania's third district this Past, May Democratic Socialist Chris
robb beat a candidate backed by the retiring, incumbent a

(01:42:33):
candidate who compared calling the genocide In gaza a genocide
to saying the n, Word but Jos shapiro is not
the only one trying to argue that DSA's success is
limited to places Like New. York londons have been saying
the same thing ever Since mamdani won the primary over
a year, ago but following The slate sweep last, month

(01:42:55):
Some democratic lawmakers have tried to minimize the increasing trend
of socialist candidates beating both moderate and sometimes even progressive.

Speaker 5 (01:43:04):
Politicians the reaction From democrats has been.

Speaker 23 (01:43:06):
Something you've had some Prominent democrats dismissive of what happened.
HERE i, mean you Had Senator blumenthal say the effort
to Nationalize New york is going to. Fail what happened
In New york will be really irrelevant by the time
of the elections In. November Jakeem jeffreys basically said the same,
thing saying that this is not indicative of what needs

(01:43:28):
to happen In.

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
November what do you make of?

Speaker 24 (01:43:30):
That you, KNOW i think that when you Ask americans
what they're feeling in this, moment amidst reports of an
economated strengthening of stock market that's, booming you will hear
an exhaustion and having to try and make ends meet
every single, day every single, week every single, month and
that it's getting harder and, harder and so a message

(01:43:51):
of fighting for working. People we don't have to nationalize that.
Message that is a national, message the national. Crisis and
for far too, long all we've had to say is
a party is opposition to the current.

Speaker 4 (01:44:03):
Administration what do we have to say beyond?

Speaker 24 (01:44:05):
That and what these candidates offer is a vision that
extends beyond the, Midterms it extends beyond twenty twenty. Eight
it speaks to what makes so many of us proud
to Be. Democrats it speaks to a vision that goes
back to a new deal understanding of what working people.
Deserve And i'll tell you, that for too, long that
kind of politics you can only find it in history,
books and we need to bring it back to the present.

Speaker 3 (01:44:24):
Day ON, Cnn joshapiro addressed his disagreements with one particular
candidate In New, York, chevalier, saying, quote her district voted for,
her BUT i have profound differences from that particular, candidate
and she's not someone who SEEMINGLY i would agree with
on many, things or that we share similar. Values she

(01:44:46):
ran on The democratic. TICKET i guess she is a.
Socialist her voters in that district determined that she was
the one they wanted representing.

Speaker 25 (01:44:54):
HER i think what is important are the people who
are making a lot in no, wise who're engaged in
these performative, politics have to now figure out how to deliver.
Results it's one thing to speak in platitudes during a.
Campaign it's a whole other thing to actually deliver for
people who are genuinely, hurting who genuinely need to see

(01:45:15):
cost of living go, down meaning their ability to make ends,
meet you, know go, up fixing a broken healthcare, system
raining in, excesses being able to give people the promise
of liberty that we've talked. ABOUT i think we as
a party need to find our way toward candidates who
actually can deliver for people and make their lives.

Speaker 3 (01:45:36):
Better i'm curious Who shapiro thinks such candidates may, be
because the twenty twenty four election showed that voters lost
faith That National dems could deliver any of those, Things
whereas in just six, Months Democratic Socialist Zora mamdani delivered free,
childcare a two year rent, freeze a new plan to

(01:45:57):
make buses, faster all well balance the budget and overcoming
a twelve billion dollar deficit left By Eric.

Speaker 24 (01:46:04):
Adams we don't have to ask ourselves what life looks
like if a socialist. WINS i won Last, november and
over the course of these last six, months what we've
delivered for working people are the very things we were
told were. Impossible we've delivered free childcare for two year
olds for the first time In New York city. History
we've delivered tens of millions of dollars back to tenants
who were taken advantage of by bad. Landlords we've delivered

(01:46:27):
one hundred and sixty five thousand potholes being. Paved and
we've done all of these things while also delivering the
lowest recorded crime in our city's. History that's what it
looks like to have democratic. Socialism and what you're seeing
is That New yorkers experienced this for six months and
made the decision that they wanted to see more of
it on the national stage as.

Speaker 3 (01:46:44):
Well Governor shapiro has said The Democratic party is going
through quote a battle over what we believe in, unquote
AND i think that's. True but moderates can never seem
to really express what they believe in opposition to Both
trump and The Democratic. Socialists, Meanwhile momdani is on the

(01:47:05):
news clearly articulating what he believes in and why the
party should believe in it.

Speaker 24 (01:47:10):
TOO i think it has to stand for working, people
AND i think it has to be willing to fight
for working. People AND i think that there are some
who are offended by the prospect of a party that
knows who it fights for and goes every day to
work for, that because what we've seen over many years
is a willingness to not only explain away the status,
quo but frankly even to look to benefit from the status.

(01:47:33):
Quo and that's not what working people are looking for
from our.

Speaker 23 (01:47:36):
Party can A Democratic socialists get elected?

Speaker 24 (01:47:38):
PRESIDENT i think A Democratic socialist can get elected anywhere
across this country for any. Position WHAT i think we
need to bring is a focus on working.

Speaker 23 (01:47:45):
People and that's the direction that the party should go.
In and in terms of a selecting a candidate for
twenty twenty, EIGHT i think.

Speaker 24 (01:47:51):
The direction that the party should go in is how
best to fight for working. PEOPLE i think we need
to have a platform and a vision that doesn't sound
as if it was cooked up by, consultants but instead
one that you would say in response to someone who's
asking why CAN'T i afford my? Rent why CAN'T i
afford my? Groceries why CAN'T i afford my? Childcare we
need to make clear who we stand, for how we're

(01:48:12):
going to stand for.

Speaker 4 (01:48:12):
Them and that we're actually willing to fight for them
when the going gets.

Speaker 3 (01:48:15):
Tough as Red scare style rhetoric has surged on the,
right we've begun to see more Establishment dems team up
with conservative media And republican politicians in trying to take
down THE dsa to protect their shared class. Interests this
was already happening throughout The New york mayor oal race last,
year eventually leading To trump Endorsing Andrew cuomo on the

(01:48:37):
eve of the. Election but as THE dsa keeps building
power and winning races across the, country so too will
this bipartisan ruling class alliance continue to. Spread late last,
Month democratic Advisor James carville went On Fox news to
discuss the danger of democratic socialism and the possibility of

(01:48:58):
a party. Schism Then fox has been airing clips Of
carville's own podcast where he attacks THE dsa.

Speaker 26 (01:49:05):
Socialism surge is threating to shake up The Democratic. Party
big wins From mondani backed candidates In New york this
week just the latest for The Democratic socialists Of. America
Veteran democratic Strategist James carville says it could be time to.

Speaker 21 (01:49:19):
SPLIT i actually do think it's time For democrats to
talk THE s, word skiss.

Speaker 4 (01:49:27):
THEM i really. Do everybody's always, said, no, no we were.
Coalition we're a big temp and as there's just some
THAT i can't be in the same camp.

Speaker 3 (01:49:37):
With later in that, Segment fox brought on a quote
Unquote democratic strategist who worked Under Andrew cuomo to rail
against socialists trying to hijack the.

Speaker 27 (01:49:48):
Party, now, Listen i've been saying this for the last
several months and trying to sound the alarm on.

Speaker 4 (01:49:53):
This these people are Not. Democrats they are.

Speaker 27 (01:49:56):
Socialists and what they've done is they have, strategically in
the last ten, years Since burny did his run in twenty,
sixteen come up with a strategy in order to take
over The Democratic. Party they very, organize they've been working
on the local. Level but make no, mistake these are Not.
Democrats they fundamentally do not believe in the same things
as far as public, safety as far as the seizure

(01:50:19):
of private, property as far as celebrating terrorism and stoking Anti,
semitism and so, yes big. Tent we've always been.

Speaker 5 (01:50:27):
A big tant no to hijack.

Speaker 27 (01:50:29):
Tent and the reality is they should start their own
party and run, there but they know that won't be,
successful so they're trying to take over hours and.

Speaker 5 (01:50:37):
It is a.

Speaker 3 (01:50:37):
Disaster as already, mentioned Moderate democrats in The house are
threatening quote unquote, war and high Level Democratic party figures
have been airing frustrations THAT dsa candidates are benefiting from
running on The democratic ballot line while seeking to fundamentally
change the nature of the party. Itself former chair of THE,

(01:50:58):
Dnc Jamie harrison, wrote, QUOTE i say this with no
ill will or. Animosity if you hate The Democratic, party
then please don't run for our. Nomination don't use our,
resources don't rely on our, volunteers don't use our, infrastructure
don't Ask democrats to invest their, time money and energy

(01:51:19):
into your. Campaign focus on building the party you actually.
Support political parties aren't, perfect but they're built by millions
of people who, knockdoors make, calls organize, meetings and fight
for the values they believe. In if you don't believe
in the, party then don't ask its members to carry
you across the finish line. Unquote something That Jamie harrison

(01:51:40):
seems to not quite, comprehend which makes sense considering is
the former chair of THE dnc Under Joe, Biden Kamala,
harris is that party nominees are supposed to be chosen
by the, voters not party, elites and These Democratic socialist
candidates are winning primaries despite strong option position from the

(01:52:01):
State democratic, parties entrenched political machines in city, government and
national establishment. Forces THE dsa has to outorganize The democratic
establishment and overcome the power of corporate money just to
get on The democratic ballot line In. November of, course
IF dsa candidates ran third, party then people Like Jamie

(01:52:22):
harrison would just claim that they're spoiler candidates helping THE gop.
Win there's no satisfying these. People they just have to be.
Beaten vice chair of The Manhattan Democratic, Party Mariama james
smeared ALL dsa members as having a quote unquote white
supremacist mindset after she lost the primary For State Assembly

(01:52:46):
district sixty five In chinatown and The Lower East side
TO dsa Candidate iyappa Syrit. Pak in this same election,
cycle THE adl And Congressman Josh gotttheimer Attacked mamdani for
referring to dark money super packs like apak as quote
unquote monsters in reference to The grams sheet quote the

(01:53:06):
old world is dying and the new world struggles to be.

Speaker 5 (01:53:09):
Born now is the time of.

Speaker 3 (01:53:10):
Monsters THE adl And Congressman gotttheimer claimed that both dark
money and the word monster invoked Anti semitic. Tropes, meanwhile
senior advisor To Adriano, espayot chair of The Congressional Spanic,
caucus who is up Against, chevalier weaponized Anti haitian animus Towards,
chevalier who Is Afro, latina and on A spanish language,

(01:53:35):
podcast spiat's senior advisor said That mamdani wanted to change
the demographics of The Washington heights neighborhood In Upper manhattan
by making it quote no longer be a bastion of
The dominican, community but instead a bastion of The Haitian muslim.
Community allied to him. Unquote Congressman Josh gottheimer responded to

(01:53:57):
the DSA's victory in The democratic primary by continuing to
attack the Now democratic nominees and released a centrist manifesto rebuking.
Communism do you, say Asked Mayor Mum donnie about the
manifesto and The democratic politicians Like gotttheimer who claimed that
socialists can't be.

Speaker 23 (01:54:16):
Democrats Josh, gottheimer A democratic member Of, congress, says many
of us believe as DO.

Speaker 4 (01:54:21):
I if you're a, socialist you are not A.

Speaker 23 (01:54:24):
Democrat and in, fact they put out a manifesto.

Speaker 4 (01:54:27):
Today have you seen this?

Speaker 5 (01:54:28):
Thing sounds pretty socialist to.

Speaker 4 (01:54:29):
Me it's not a communist.

Speaker 23 (01:54:30):
Manifesto it's a moderate manifesto saying we are capitalists and not.
Socialists we believe in a, growing fair and competitive, economy, entrepreneurship.

Speaker 4 (01:54:40):
OWNERSHIP i mean this is a direct.

Speaker 23 (01:54:42):
Response they've made it clear.

Speaker 5 (01:54:44):
To what you did here On.

Speaker 24 (01:54:45):
Tuesday, WELL i, mean you, know that's, Great but what's
a party if not its. Voters And i'm proud to
sit in front of you as the mayor of our,
city having received more than a million votes a little
over a little less than a year. Ago and when
we're talking about these incredible congressional can the dates they
won their races and they won their races with the
vision of what politics should be and one that actually

(01:55:06):
speaks to working people and for a lot of people
who ask themselves what does democratic socialism? Mean and you
can tell them the. Answer at a theoretical, level it's
the choice to extend democracy from the ballot box the
rest of their. Lives but in terms of what it,
means over these last seven, months we've seen a city
with democratic socialist principles at the heart of.

Speaker 3 (01:55:23):
It within our, administration we will return to discuss how
communists And Miss rachel are teaming up to Destroy america
after this ad. Break Last, Saturday Fox news write a

(01:55:48):
story about the DSA's new national, Platform Workers Deserve. More
let's take a.

Speaker 28 (01:55:53):
Listen Fox news has obtained documents from The Democratic socialists
Of america revealing the group's updated, platform which is even
more radical than. Before now they plan to release this next.

Speaker 5 (01:56:06):
Week listen to.

Speaker 28 (01:56:06):
This The United States senate eliminated gone The president and
The Supreme court replaced The department Of, war defunded all
immigrants given. Amnesty that is the.

Speaker 3 (01:56:19):
Plan the rest of The fox report tried to PAINT
dsa as being driven by, Anarchists, marxists and crazy communists
who want to destroy the. Country the report highlighted a
few of the niche caucuses WITHIN dsa that focus on anti,
imperialism promote anti, electoralism.

Speaker 28 (01:56:38):
And explicitly push.

Speaker 3 (01:56:40):
Communism later on in this, segment Former White House Deputy
chief Of staff And trump's current top electoral Advisor James
blair joined the program to discuss the communist.

Speaker 5 (01:56:52):
Menace, james this is.

Speaker 28 (01:56:54):
What you're up against in the, midterms and we keep
hearing it's A New york, problem except here we. Go
there ARE dsa candidates In, Missouri, Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida New.
Hampshire so what is your plan to defeat these?

Speaker 5 (01:57:05):
Radicals, WELL i think.

Speaker 29 (01:57:06):
We just have to bring their issues to The american,
people and The american people are going to reject. Them
let's talk about the views that they're actually espousing and
what they want to bring to the.

Speaker 25 (01:57:16):
Country you said it as they say in their.

Speaker 29 (01:57:18):
Documents or all amnesty for all illegal, immigrants no deportations at,
all not even the.

Speaker 3 (01:57:23):
Criminals let me, think when was the last time an
unpopular incumbent party failed to address eCOM issues affecting working
class voters and just tried to hold onto power by
fear mongering about the opposition's. Platform oh, yeah twenty twenty,
four when The democrats tried and failed spectacularly to campaign
on Stopping project twenty twenty. Five but now the tables

(01:57:46):
are turned so by all, means Mister, blair don't try
to offer an actual alternative platform that improves workers'. Lives
just tell them all about the DSA's platform, instead especially
When ice is historically unpopular and hint seen to not
murder someone every, Week believe it or. Not This Fox
news segment actually ended by talking about the threat posed

(01:58:08):
by evil far left communist and children's educational YouTuber Miss.

Speaker 28 (01:58:14):
Rachel let's remind our viewers Who Miss rachel. Is if
your kids do not watch her like, mine do not
This Miss. Rachel are you guys afraid to take On Miss?

Speaker 29 (01:58:33):
RACHEL i would love to take On Miss. Rachel it'll
be the end of her, show which would be a
service To. America my kids AND i have four under
the age of. Six they also don't watch. Her she's
radically far. Left her show is really about indoctrinating, children and,
honestly if that's the fight we have to, Have i'm
happy to have it no.

Speaker 5 (01:58:50):
Problem we will beat her like a.

Speaker 3 (01:58:51):
Drum, yeah that sure sounds like a message that will
resonate with. Voters data For progress ran a survey last
month asking for two thousand likely voters what actors are
most harmful to our society and the. Economy At number
one was, billionaires number two corporate, landlords three, sports, gambling

(01:59:15):
four artificial, intelligence and five. Cryptocurrency The Republican party was
found to be the seventh most harmful and The Democratic
party was the. Ninth, so despite popular opposition to things
THAT dsa candidates are specifically trying to, Address trump seems
to believe that just screaming communism will stymy the growth

(01:59:36):
of democratic socialism and scare voters away from voting in
their class.

Speaker 15 (01:59:42):
Interest liberal became so, tarnished but now it's. Communists you,
know they say social. Democrats no social democrat is a,
communist all, right you, see and then say there's No
so if you look at the people that are, running
it's crazy what they're. Doing but we will we'll never
let that happen to this. Country can't happen to the Count.
Canada there's no appetite for.

Speaker 3 (02:00:02):
It if there's no appetite for. It how Come Bernie
sanders And Zorn mamdani are the two most popular sitting
politicians in the. Country how come one in Ten mamdnni
voters voted For trump in twenty twenty. Four that's over
one hundred thousand voters who Backed trump and then a

(02:00:23):
year later voted For. Mamdanni candidates Like zoron are not
just appealing to a sizable portion of people who Voted,
trump but are also pulling in new voters who, might
for the first time in their, lives actually have something
to vote. For In New York, city around two hundred
and sixty thousand people registered to vote in twenty twenty,

(02:00:45):
five more than double that of the last mayoral election
in twenty twenty. One almost two thirds of those new
voters were under the age of. THIRTY A cato pull
from Late june found that among millennials, fifth twenty percent
were favorable towards, capitalism but forty percent were favorable to

(02:01:05):
socialism and twenty nine percent were favorable towards. Communism these
percentages total over one hundred because this was a multiple choice,
selection but the numbers among gen z are even more.
Striking according to This cato, poll fifty three percent of
GEN z respondents were favorable towards, socialism forty five percent to,

(02:01:28):
capitalism and thirty eight percent to. Communism The New York
times ran an article this Past tuesday about how support
FOR nycdsa candidates in the last election was not divided by,
race but rather by, age with older voters tending to
support establishment candidates while younger voters backed insurgent. CHALLENGERS A

(02:01:52):
yugov poll From june twenty ninth showed that the favorability
of socialism was at fifty eight percent Among democrats and
just eleven percent. Unfavorable among, independents socialism was thirty four
percent unfavorable to thirty percent, favorable and Among republicans seventy
one percent unfavorable to eleven percent. Favorable An echelon poll

(02:02:15):
from Early july asked democrats should THE dsa have a
larger or smaller influence on The Democratic party than they currently.
Do forty six percent Of democrats said THE dsa should
have a larger, influence twenty one percent said, smaller and
thirty three percent were. Unsure following the DSA's congressional victories last,

(02:02:38):
month there have been multiple think pieces in The atlantic
about how THE dsa has gotten too radical and abandoned
its social democratic, roots and how quote Unquote democrats became
great by fighting the left in the postwar, period when
liberals fought off a communist incursion into The Democratic party
led By Henry, wallace former vice president TO. Fdr an

(02:03:02):
opinion piece in The Washington post penned by the president
and executive vice president of the centrist think Tank Third
way argued that quote DSA's radicalism makes it not a
faction to be, appeased but a movement to be. Opposed
they insist that democratic socialist ideas are quote unquote electoral,

(02:03:23):
poison and claim that quote far left governance has also
been a, failure while ignoring the biggest most recent example
of far left Governance New York. City on first, glance
this piece in The Washington post presents a contradictory problem
THAT dsa will Hand republicans perfect attack ad fodder that

(02:03:47):
will Tank democrats electoral, chances especially in swing. States but
on the other, hand they believe the biggest threat posed
BY dsa is that their candidates are continuing to win
elections and may thus transform the makeup of The Democratic,
party or as the author's, right the DSA's commitment is

(02:04:07):
to quote hallowing out The Democratic party from within by
primarying Sitting democrats and replacing them with quote unquote ideological.
Zealots to this, point the authors directly compare dsay's wave
of success to The Republican Tea party movement from around
twenty ten that reshaped THE gop and set the stage

(02:04:29):
For trump to come rolling in and slingshot The republicans into.
Power they wrote that for years The Tea party quote
looked like self. Sabotage then a charismatic outsider, arrived harnessed
the energy The Tea party, fomented and took over The Republican.
Party democrats who assume a takeover can't happen have learned

(02:04:51):
nothing from the death of The party Of. Reagan THE
dsay is building a left wing ideological movement waiting for
its standard bearer. Unquote so THE dsa is both electoral
poison but also risks being so popular and so successful
that democratic socialism could take over The Democratic. Party despite

(02:05:14):
all the concern, trolling the author's real fear isn't that
DSA's radical rhetoric will Sabotage democrats' ability to win, elections
but that the DSA's recent victories could very well lead
to A Democratic party with workers at the, forefront and
such a party would threaten the class interests of think
take gules like those At Third. Way one of the

(02:05:37):
biggest results of DSA's electoral, strategy beyond winning, seats is
Reorienting american politics back to a class based understanding of,
politics whether that's framed in red scare terms like capitalism versus,
communism more slopulist rhetoric like regular people versus the quote

(02:05:59):
Unquote epstein in, class or simply the working class against
the bipartisan. Elites the DSA's momentum and this new red
scare point to a return of class struggle, politics and
this is the result Of Democratic, socialists especially The New
york chapter OF, dsa who have been slowly building power

(02:06:19):
the past, decade experimenting winning local races and increasing their organizational.
Capacity after the twenty twenty four, election The Democratic party
was in a uniquely compromised. State then State assembly members
Or mumdani and THE dsa seized on this opportunity to
redefine what democratic politics are show that they can win

(02:06:42):
and demonstrate that they can succeed at governing and advancing
the interests of the working class in the biggest city
in the. Country while reacting To Maya Mumdani's Independence day,
Speech Steve bannon cautioned against dismissing the threat posed By.
Mamdani this is quite.

Speaker 30 (02:07:01):
Serious if you dismiss this guy and dismiss the people around,
him and dismiss the money in back of, him you
are missing something that's more powerful Than.

Speaker 4 (02:07:12):
Obama and it's not just this, guy it's the team around.

Speaker 3 (02:07:16):
Him of, Course Steve bannon cannot understand that something Like
momdani isn't the result of big, money but rather regular,
people individual, donors and one hundred thousand volunteers who actually
believe in fighting for a positive political. Project the next
major test of that project will be In, wisconsin Where

(02:07:39):
Democratic socialist candidate To Francesca hang is running for. Governor
if she wins her upcoming primary Come, november this election
will be the biggest test case to see If Democratic
socialists can organize and win statewide in a swing.

Speaker 5 (02:07:54):
State see you on the other, side it could happen.

Speaker 3 (02:08:12):
Here executive disorder our weekly newscast covering what's happening in
The White, house the crumbling, world and what it means for.
You I'm Garrison davis today'm joined By Mia. Wong this,
episode we are covering the week Of july eighth To july.
FIFTEENTH a totally different war In iran has. Started god

(02:08:33):
And ice has killed two people this. Week James stout
will have a segment on that later this, episode but
let's start with a few small. Things mitch McConnell has
entered into a pact with the Demon, methastopheles who extend
his life in exchange for the death of. Another in other,

(02:08:54):
news four Term Senator Lindsey graham has died following what
his office calls a quote unquote brief and sudden.

Speaker 5 (02:09:02):
ILLNESS i want TO i want to take two seconds
to speak ill of the. Man SO i found this
out From sophie messaging us in the group, chat AND
i fully read the title of the article and clicked on,
it AND i fully read the Words Lindsay, graham and
my brain, went, well obviously It's misch. McConnell someone made
a typo or something in the. Headline it wasn't even

(02:09:22):
LIKE i thought it was a. Typo it's, like, fully
my brain refused to process that it. Was Lindsay gram,
Said ach.

Speaker 3 (02:09:28):
McConnell what a bait and switch, though like an incredible
an incredible week And senate.

Speaker 5 (02:09:32):
Politics, yeah oh my, god completely. Wild the second THING
i want to say ill of him was there's a
very Funny axios thing where he's talking about how he's
not gonna go to the hospital and he can't die
because he has to do like terriffs and then also
specifically he has to Do Israel Saudi arabia. Normalization he
has to, establish, Yeah Israel's Israel saudi relationship and this

(02:09:54):
is this IS i, think how how he should go
out being, remembered which is trying trying to brow for
an alliance between like the world's worst monarchy and like
one of the world's worst EBox sees two of the
most evil countries in the, world like two of the top,
five which is really. Impressive right now we're up there. Too.

Speaker 3 (02:10:14):
Yeah On saturday, NIGHT ems responded to a call for
quote unquote cardiac arrest At Graham's Capitol hill, home according
to police scanner, audio and On Sunday graham's office announced
the preliminary cause of death was a rupture of his
iorda due to a hardening of his. Arteries that same,
Day mitch McConnell posted a photo Holding today's a. Newspaper On,

(02:10:40):
Monday trump went On newsmax to say That graham's death
actually wasn't related to his artery, problems and instead he
died of heart. Complications, QUOTE a certain part of his
body literally blew. Up let's play the.

Speaker 5 (02:10:57):
Clip you have any suspicions or. Worry do you think
we know the whole story about his? Death, WELL i
think we.

Speaker 16 (02:11:04):
Do we've had great doctors and they talked, about you,
know a certain part of his body literally blew.

Speaker 5 (02:11:09):
Up and that's a CONDITION i believe his father.

Speaker 12 (02:11:12):
Had also his father also had the part of body
blows up. Condition, GOD i part of me hopes that
there is a hell and That Lindsay graham is looking
up like in hell and seeing that this is What Donald,
trump the man who he just, like turned his entire
career into.

Speaker 3 (02:11:33):
Backing the saying about him and to his, Day trump
addressed some whirling conspiracy theories Around graham's, death whether or
not he was poisoned by The russians or other nefarious
acts may have taken, place And trump just, said, QUOTE
i know there's all sorts of conspiracy theories going, around

(02:11:54):
AND i think THE fbi is wasting their time if
they are doing.

Speaker 12 (02:11:58):
That.

Speaker 3 (02:11:59):
Unquote that's in reference to a post made By Cash
fattel Following graham's, death which was mostly like an ordinary
like memorial, statement but curiously it ended with this sentence,
quote THE fbi is assisting local, authorities and it's made
every necessary resource available. UNQUOTE i think this Is patel

(02:12:22):
just being a kind of like a. Moron, YEAH i
was TALKING i was talking With Molly conger about this
earlier this, week and she said That patel often makes
kind of posts like this following like big national news
just because he like is still caught in like the
content creator mindset of just you have to like comment

(02:12:43):
on everything and like relate it back to yourself in some.
Way now that THE fbi did like go through Like
graham's home and like that's that's pretty. Ordinary but BUT
i think a post like this, is, YEAH i don't
think indicating a larger conspiracy or foul play at, work
and is kind of just a an oversight made By
patel not really thinking about the consequences of his.

Speaker 5 (02:13:04):
Actions, yeah and like part of the consequences is that
like a huge portion of the right is convinced that
he was killed by some nebulous. Force there's like five
thousand different unhinged theories as to who killed him or.
Whatever but, like, no he's just. Old, no his body
just literally blew.

Speaker 3 (02:13:22):
Up, now Following Lindsey graham's, death his, Sister Darlene Graham,
nordon was appointed By South Carolina Governor henry McMaster to
serve the remainder Of graham's, term which ends In. JANUARY
i didn't know you could just do. That you can
just call if oh, yeah WELL i know, YOU i
know the governor, appoints but just calling up the dead

(02:13:48):
senator's sister to.

Speaker 5 (02:13:49):
Be, like, hey do you want to fill? In there
was some election where Like Alan ashcroft lost an election
to a dead, guy AND i think they put his
spouse in office or something, Afterwards so, LIKE i guess
there is president for this extremely baffling. Shit it's pretty.

Speaker 3 (02:14:03):
Remarkable Lindsay graham had actually just won The republican nomination
for his fifth, term but Now South carolina will hold
a special election next month to select a new, Nominee
Nancy masistner hat into the. Ring we'll see if anything
comes to. That so week was off to uh kind
of an okay, START i. Guess in other, news in

(02:14:26):
a three hundred and eight to one hundred and seventeen,
vote The house passed legislation to make daylight savings time permanent.
Nationwide the bill is supported By, trump and if passed
by The, senate it would end the twice a year clock.
Changes pack it, up. Folks Hunter biden sat down With
Nick fuentes On Andrew Callahan's channel five podcast this. Week Oh,

(02:14:49):
god legitimate nightmare blunt. Rotation, Yeah i've never been on
the Pro Hunter biden, Train, no because he is obviously
he's In, sartain no way related to mine or that
of you, know regular. People but hopefully this will will
stop the Whole Hunter Biden's stan community.

Speaker 5 (02:15:10):
Online. YEAH i also just want to mention BECAUSE i
think people don't know who this guy is or remember.
It but, yeah there have been a curie as those
sexual assault allegations Against Andrew. Callahan and also, yeah part
of the nightmare or blunt.

Speaker 3 (02:15:26):
Rotation Andrew callahan is one hundred percent part of nightmare blunt.
Rotation oh, yeah, YEAH i JUST i just want to
make it clear that he. Is, yes this is absolutely his.
Crowd in some better, news The trump administration is abandoning
a proposed rule change to Block medicare And medicaid funding
to hospitals that provide gender affirming care to trans. Youth

(02:15:48):
over thirty thousand comments were submitted following the proposal Last.
December medical groups like The American Medical association and The
Children's Hospital association pushed back on the. Proposal the vast
majority of those thirty thousand comments were against this proposed rule.

Speaker 5 (02:16:03):
Change this is, Good this is a good.

Speaker 3 (02:16:06):
Thing this was a big threat that prompted hospitals to
comply in, advance and they should not have done, that
and that is. Bad and we still don't know if
those hospitals will reinstate. Care yeah, yeah and they should
still be pressured. Yep and obviously the administration is still
going after trans youth care, specifically they're still trying to

(02:16:27):
go after patient records and are targeting specific hospitals with criminal.
Subpoenas not all those subpoenas have been. Successful but this
is good news about this proposed rule.

Speaker 4 (02:16:37):
Change.

Speaker 3 (02:16:38):
Yeah On, Friday Fergie, chambers self styled quote unquote anti,
imperialist communist and multimillion dollar air to The cox family,
fortune was detained In, Ibeza spain under requests from THE
Us Justice, department who is attempting to Extradite chambers back
to The states and is being charged with international money

(02:17:02):
laundering with intent to provide material support to foreign terrorist
organizations Likely. Hamas the past few, Years chambers has donated
millions to Pro palestinian causes and has been globe trotting
the past few. Months this is a political. Prosecution whether
or not you Like chambers or disagree with parts of his,

(02:17:24):
politics this is probably a bad thing and a bad
sign for Pro palestinian politics across The United. States oh,
Yeah spain has like forty days to decide if they're
going to comply with the extradition, request And chambers has
a bail hearing On thursday to see if he will
remain in the. Tension speaking of international far left, terrorism On,

(02:17:50):
Thursday july, Sixteenth Marco rubia will be holding an international
meeting at The State department focused on the threat Of
antifa and the quote resurgence of transnational far left. Terrorism
according to The Washington, Post ford senior ministers from more
than sixty countries were, invited though many will be unlikely

(02:18:15):
to attend due to the meetings vague aims and short.
Notice One european diplomat told The Washington post they were
confused as to why they were. Invited, quote we don't have.
Antifa another said, quote our law enforcement authorities have not
focused on left wing terrorism because that is not considered
a high priority threat in our.

Speaker 5 (02:18:35):
Country. Unquote The Washington.

Speaker 3 (02:18:39):
Post also reported that SOME us officials will not be
attending this meeting out of growing fear that the increased
targeting of far left activists may backfire on conservatives Once
trump is out of.

Speaker 5 (02:18:51):
Office in fear.

Speaker 3 (02:18:57):
Motheruners so we are recording this before the summit is
going to take. Place if something comes of, it we
may report on it later.

Speaker 30 (02:19:07):
On.

Speaker 3 (02:19:08):
Yeah in More Mark Rubio, News secretary Of State Mark
rubio announced On monday that The United states is launching
a campaign to dismantle The International Criminal, court Which rubio
says Threatens american.

Speaker 5 (02:19:23):
Sovereignty we're not even in. It we're not even in THE.

Speaker 10 (02:19:26):
Icc what are we doing here?

Speaker 3 (02:19:29):
Now THE icc has has attracted the eyr of. Conservatives yeah,
yeah ever since its. Inception. Yeah but this Week rubio
announced the launch of a whole of government effort that
will use quote all the tools at our government's disposal
to take on the. Court reuters reported debt options being
considered include quote travel, bands visa, restrictions increased sanctions against

(02:19:53):
THE icc and affiliated, organizations and diplomatic pressure on other
nations to withdraw from The international Crem.

Speaker 4 (02:20:00):
Court.

Speaker 5 (02:20:00):
Quote rubio penned an opinion piece in The Wall Street,
journal which is behind a, paywall incredible explaining quote why
we're dismantling The International Criminal, Court And i'll quote from
from the piece. Here.

Speaker 3 (02:20:17):
Quote last, year major activist groups urged high ranking international
officials quote to take immediate and meaningful action against The
trump administration's deportation of violent criminals To El. Salvador months,
later a FORMER icc chief prosecutor Declared President trump's strikes
against narco terrorists amounted to a quote unquote crime against

(02:20:37):
humanity and should be treated as such under international, law
a line that was echoed By United nations leaders and
major leftist non governmental, organizations democratic party, officials and. Politicians In,
march The washington Based democracy for The Arab World now
urged The iranian regime to request AN icc investigation of

(02:21:00):
quote unquote apparent war crimes committed By american personnel unquote war.

Speaker 5 (02:21:05):
Crimes enjoyer hates the people who every once in a
blue moon sort of do something about war.

Speaker 4 (02:21:10):
Crimes.

Speaker 3 (02:21:11):
Guys huh, Yeah, SO i mean this shows that there
is at least some level of fear in The trump
administration or The State department that strikes on boats off
the coast Of, venezuela disappearing immigrants into An El salvadoran,
prison and strikes on civilian infrastructure and civilians In iran
could result in at least some sort of pressure being

(02:21:32):
applied on THE us from THE. Icc rubio wants to
get ahead of that in some. WAY i don't think this.

Speaker 5 (02:21:40):
Will be very.

Speaker 3 (02:21:40):
Successful THE us doesn't really hold much diplomatic power right.
Now it's this kind of, posturing this posturing that we've
seen From republican administrations, before especially in the twenty. Tens
BUT i think this is interesting and worth. Noting, lastly
one more small news. Item Jake tapper is a, sniveling
diesel coward and. Fraud On Sunday, Check taffer Interviewed President,

(02:22:04):
trump and let's take a look at his hard hitting.

Speaker 5 (02:22:08):
Questions iron has declared the strait of horror moves.

Speaker 31 (02:22:12):
Closed is that, true mister, President.

Speaker 5 (02:22:16):
It's open as far as we're.

Speaker 4 (02:22:17):
Concerned don't talk about.

Speaker 5 (02:22:18):
It talk about the reason.

Speaker 12 (02:22:20):
That you asked me to.

Speaker 10 (02:22:21):
Speak.

Speaker 5 (02:22:21):
Okay we appreciate your, time.

Speaker 3 (02:22:23):
Sir, Okay oh, boy incredible journalism on display AT. Cnn
tapper finished this quote unquote interview by talking out The
president just a little bit.

Speaker 31 (02:22:34):
More, WELL i know you don't want to talk about
any other issues out of respect For Lindsey, graham but
we would love to have you back sometime BECAUSE i
do have a lot of other questions for, you.

Speaker 5 (02:22:43):
Sir we'll do.

Speaker 15 (02:22:44):
That we'll do.

Speaker 4 (02:22:45):
That thank you for calling.

Speaker 6 (02:22:48):
In a normal, path and we'll do.

Speaker 31 (02:22:50):
That, Well i'm on a normal path right, here, Sir
AND i appreciate your time and thank you for calling.

Speaker 6 (02:22:54):
In, okay thanks so.

Speaker 5 (02:22:56):
Much i'm a good little, boy mister. President please please
please like. Me i've been. GOOD i won't challenge you on.
ANYTHING i swear the most stolerashing part Of this is
like all of this like, sniveling like boot, licking didn't
even get him an in person. Interview this is a phone,
call like come, On.

Speaker 3 (02:23:15):
I'm no fan of the, man but recently he has
been appealing To trump a lot, more and to, me
it kind of seems like he's trying out For David
ellison in case the PARAMOUNT wb deal goes through and
that results In Barry weiss or someone of that ilk
being put in charge OF. Cnn SO i think that in,
Part tapper is trying to demonstrate to those people that

(02:23:39):
he will play, ball Whereas Cooper. Anderson cooper has has
said if that, happens he will not work for someone
Like Barry, weiss as he has left Sixty, minutes which
has been put Under Barry weiss's, control though he remains AT.
Cnn that's all for our first. Segment we will come
back with a special report From James stout on two

(02:24:00):
ice killings and the New Ish war With.

Speaker 5 (02:24:05):
Iran, okay we are. Back here's our segment From James.

Speaker 18 (02:24:22):
Stout, hi, everyone it's Me. JAMES i am calling in
from Front range In. Colorado apologies if by sound. TIRED
i have slept approximately three hours in the last twenty
Four BUT i am joining you today to talk about
two things which you can probably guess if you follow
the needs at. ALL i want to start out With

(02:24:42):
iran and then we're going to talk about. It hostd
bepinion in THE usa And iran have resumed in a
new and of course totally different war that in no
way requires congressional. Authorization THE usa carried out four consecutive
nights of strikes on the day of, recording which Is.
Wednesday they carried those out in Side, iran While iran
once again attempted to close the straight Up hormuz ring

(02:25:05):
on ships in The. Strait in, addition The iranians have Struk,
kata which has been a mediator in talks between them
and The United states as well as other countries in
the region and what it.

Speaker 8 (02:25:15):
Perceives to BE us allies and.

Speaker 18 (02:25:16):
Assets at the time of recording On wednesday, night we
have gone from sporadic strike to the full on beating
of the drums of war. Again The United states has
returned to its previous blockade Of. Iran according to S
Senkam's Central command is the military command that covers that.

Speaker 8 (02:25:32):
Region Ten kom.

Speaker 18 (02:25:33):
Also used one way surface drones to Strike iranian port.
Facilities this is the first documented use of these course
heir drones in this. Capacity if you're thinking about how
to picture this in your, mind think about a remote
control boat much bigger than your average toy, boat but
much smaller than a warship size with jet ski, maybe
and these are laiden with, explosives piloted to a target

(02:25:56):
and then they detonate Rent that's why they're called one.
Way prefer the term suicide. Drone it's not the drone that's,
dying it's. PEOPLE i don't like to trying to muddy
the waters with. That Saint com and The United states
are still insisting that The strait Of Horn moves is
open and they've claimed that they've shot Down iranian, drones
but in the past, Week iran has Hit saudi flagged

(02:26:18):
tankers in A singaporean, ship hitting at least four vessels
in the. Strait since last, Week iran has also claimed
to have sunk A Saint kitts And nevis flagged vessel On,
tuesday and they have once again returned with full ferocity
to their campaign of attacks Against Southern. Kurdistan AND i
just heard from friends in Southern kurdistwan today have got

(02:26:41):
dozens of messages of pictures of drones going, overhead drones
being shot, down drodes being, intercepted, fires. Etc The United,
states for its, part has also been un firing on.
Ships today it hit the motor Tanker belma with a hellfire.
Missile they claim that they warned the vessel and it
was heading in the direction of Carg. Island it didn't,

(02:27:01):
comply so they disabled, it preferring the missile to the.
Smokestack and for his, Part donald from The president of
The United, states has returned to making threats of war.

Speaker 8 (02:27:09):
Crimes here's a.

Speaker 15 (02:27:10):
Clip and then next week it gets really bad for
them because next week comes the.

Speaker 4 (02:27:18):
Power. Plants next week comes the. Bridges we're going to
knock out all their power, plants.

Speaker 18 (02:27:23):
All, Right and now we're going to move on to
another really heartbreaking. Story ice has killed Three americans this,
week And i'm going to start and go most in
depth with the story of a twenty six year old
man named One Sebastian Duran.

Speaker 8 (02:27:39):
Guero he was killed by ice On.

Speaker 18 (02:27:41):
Monday Durang guero was A colombian citizen he was in
his car when agents seem to have tried to stop.
HIM a video released by The Portland Press herald and
shot on the, scene shows To anguero's car slowly, circling
with agents standing on either side of the vehicle and
not in its. Path it appears that LATER i, say

(02:28:02):
agents rammed the vehicle with THE suv and then. Shot
do Rang guerrero for the, video WHICH i, KNOW i
say this a, lot but, like you don't have to
watch this to. Care it's not a mark of how
much you care or you don't, care how much you traumatize.
Yourself you don't have to watch this to care with
your whole. Heart but video shows him pulling his body
from the, vehicle throwing it on the, floor and handcuffing.

(02:28:25):
Him there was not in the video WHAT i perceived
to be evidence of any immediate attempt to render. Aid
one witness has said she heard the agencyl, weapon according
To Banga Daily. News The Daily news reported that. Quote
the witness said that one officer had walked away after
the shooting and started to, cry but returned to the
man and started ADMINISTERING cpr when the other officers said

(02:28:48):
he has a. Pulse another witness related WHAT i was.
SAYING i tried to, stop and then THE.

Speaker 32 (02:28:54):
Suv hit him, again and you tried him.

Speaker 4 (02:29:00):
And and then that's when he.

Speaker 32 (02:29:02):
Stopped ice agent got, out tried to open the door
and had a difficult, time but eventually opened it and
pulled the guy. Out his face was, bloody his head was,
bloody AND i clearly heard the victims SAY i tried to.
Stop clearly heard him say. That THE ice agent that

(02:29:23):
shot him walked right in front of, me and of
COURSE i HAD i was emotional AND i just let
him have, it and he looked at me and he
said he tried to run me over or something to that.

Speaker 4 (02:29:35):
EFFECT i don't remember his exact.

Speaker 32 (02:29:36):
Words there was Another ice agent with him that was
trying to comfort, him and they walked.

Speaker 8 (02:29:41):
Away it appears During luerreo's family witnesses, shooting which is.

Speaker 18 (02:29:47):
Heartbreaking recording an The Portland Press herald said a woman
and a young girl were holding hands and crying at the.
Scene she couldn't have been older than, three said the.
Witness Portland Press harold spoke to. This this person who
spoke to him has a two year old, son And
i'm going to quite hear from The Press. Herald she
was still in her blue, pajamas just minutes after a

(02:30:08):
man was shot and, killed reportedly by federal immigration officials
who missedne that's the name of their, source saw who
she believed was the victim's.

Speaker 8 (02:30:16):
Daughter she. Said the older of the two women yelled
to law. Enforcement you took her. Dad you took her.

Speaker 18 (02:30:23):
Dad danguerro's, father talking To Antic Scaracole columbia said, elplear, no.

Speaker 8 (02:30:34):
He had so many dreams To. JAY'S i don't know
why they did.

Speaker 18 (02:30:38):
This the Main Namigrants Rights commission And Presente Migrant Ampacacy
organization issued a statement confirming That Dora aguero was authorized
to work in The United states and have been issued
a Social security. NUMBER i want to be clear about,
this AND i want to be clear about Why i'm
being clear about. THIS i guess one status or like

(02:30:59):
thereof does not. Matter the agents did not know Dour anguerolo's,
status it. Seems Main Senator Angus, king who is an independent,
senator told the associate depressed of Du anguerda was not
the target of an enforcement, operation which was a revision
to a statement he in.

Speaker 8 (02:31:14):
The country he'd made earlier that.

Speaker 18 (02:31:15):
Day one status or lack of status should not determine
if they can survive driving their car, around should not
determine if a little girl grows up with or without a.
Father but if we're going to make claims about that,
status AS i have seen many people do on their
Monetized twitter, accounts then we should try and make them.
Correct so let's be clear about. This he was authorized

(02:31:37):
to work in The United states and he has issued
A Social security. Number according to The Main Immigants Rights
commission And, pretende that does not mean he was a
resident of The United.

Speaker 8 (02:31:47):
States.

Speaker 18 (02:31:47):
Necessarily it does not mean he was a. Citizen this
can happen during the asylum. Process we've spoken about the
work permit. Clock we've spoken about how problematic the work
permit clock. Is we've spoken about how hard it is
for people to get work Perm there are other processes
too which you can get a work permit in the.
Process BUT i want to be clear about this because
it's important that we tell the truth and all of

(02:32:08):
the truth. Right BUT i also want to be clear
that anybody making the claim that he was a resident
is going about this wrong because his legal status is
not what you're. Protecting being a human being is what you're.
Protecting no three year old girl should see her father
shot in the, street much less by people who your
tax is paid to shoot. Him and SO i want

(02:32:29):
to be clear about, that AND i GUESS i Hope
i've been clear about Why i'm being clear about. That
king also confirmed the agents were not wearing body cameras
at the time with the. Shooting with this and the
killing In, houston Which i'll get to it a little,
BIT cnn is reporting THAT ice is largely stopping vehicle
stops for. Now The, atlantic reporting on this added. Quote
the officer involved in fatal shooting In maine was hired

(02:32:51):
BY isis year from The department Of Veterans Affairs. Police
according to a senior, official the officer has worked in
federal law enforcement since twenty. Seventeen the official, SAID dhs
issued the following. Statement it's using this sort of like
bullshit equivocal language THAT i would straight up fail someone
in one hundred level writing course.

Speaker 8 (02:33:10):
For But i'll read it out so you can hear
what they.

Speaker 18 (02:33:12):
Said On july, thirteen to twenty twenty, six at approximately
seven Am eastern, TIME ice was conducting a targeted surveillance
on the last known address of an illegal alien with
a final order of. REMOVAL a legal alien departed the
residents in a. Vehicle ice law enforcement attempted to conduct
a vehicle. Stop the vehicle attempted to flee the scene
and fearing for public, safety and officer discharged his. Weapon

(02:33:33):
the driver of the vehicle struck and emergency services were immediately.
Contacted he passed away from his. Injuries the bit off
a police DEPARTMENT fbi responded to the. SCENE dhsig has
been notified and like all discharge of, firearms this will be.
Investigated it's a developing situation and we will update the
public when more information is. AVAILABLE a couple of THINGS
i want to. Know they didn't say that the officer

(02:33:53):
feared for his. Life they did say he feared for public.
SAFETY i think we should be wary of reading too
much into these. Statements they're always so, vague wishy, washy in,
equivocal and it's just the. Cops speakers become almost its own,
language especially in the statements of cops make after that kill.
SOMEONE i do want to note that The office of
The Inspector general right DHS oig that's referred to there

(02:34:13):
is one of very FEW dhs assets that is not
getting a huge budget. Bump and as the agency, grows
THE oig will very much struggle to keep, up especially
IF ice continues Killing americans at this. Rate, indeed The
White house last month and it's proposed budget proposed cutting
THE oig. Budget so wouldn't hold you wreath for a
thorough investigation if you want to learn more about THE

(02:34:35):
DHS oig and how he came to have, it and
then the long history that THE dhs has of preventing
meaningful investigations into shootings BY dhs. OFFICERS i did an
episode With Gen budd probably three years, ago AND i
would suggest going back and listening to. That you can
Buy gen's book. TWO i think she covers it. There

(02:34:56):
the day after, this another young man was killed BY.
Ice man was twenty eight years. Old he was killed
AFTER ice agents attempted to detain, Him he fled and
he was struck by a. Vehicle this, WEEK ice also
Killed Lorenzo, salgado a father of three who have been
in The United states for thirty five. Years one of his,

(02:35:17):
sons in a press, conference said that he was aware
That this was his dad when he saw a video On,
facebook which is, heartbreaking claiming in this, shooting as they
have falsely in almost every, shooting that he tried to
weaponize his. Vehicle the agent shot him In. Texas this,
WEEK cbs reported from The Harris County attorney that he

(02:35:38):
is filing for visas for witnesses in the case unless
it be deported before they can give evidence in the.
CASE i don't want to go into a great deal
more depth about. THIS i Guess i've seen a lot
of speculation in all of these AND i might do
a whole episode on it. SOON i just want to
take some time at the, MOMENT i, guess for us

(02:35:58):
all to to process more. GRIEF i did a book
talk yesterday In oakland and we just read their names
out loud and had a little moment With Edith.

Speaker 8 (02:36:08):
Moranti it was Edis. Idea it was.

Speaker 18 (02:36:09):
WONDERFULLY i had a little moment to think about them
at the start of the book talk, there and that
was a nice thing to. Do BUT i GUESS i
just want to, say, like we are the people who
get to decide if we want to keep living like,
this and we don't have, to and it's helped to
all of us to decide if this is the way
we want to live and the way we want things to. Be,
YEAH i hope you can all take some time to

(02:36:31):
process this and deal with it however you.

Speaker 5 (02:36:33):
Can, okay we are.

Speaker 3 (02:36:47):
Back ahead of an upcoming union, Election The department Of
justice has opened a grand jury investigation INTO Uaw President Sean.
Faine Sean fayne is currently facing a challenge FROM Uaw
Vice President Rich, boyer who years ago told the court
appointed independent monitor That feinn quote acted improperly to obtain

(02:37:12):
financial benefits for his fiancee. Unquote fain said in a, statement,
Quote let's be clear about what's going on. Here Rich
boyer has fed the monitor false allegations about me and
is now trying to weaponize these bogus allegations to steal
the UPCOMING uaw. Election he knows he can't win a
fair fight because he has no real platform to run on.

(02:37:34):
Unquote the court appointed monitor FOR, Uaw Neil, borowsky has
clashed With faine the past few. Years ever Since faine
pushed for THE oaw to pass a resolution calling for
a ceasefire In, gaza which they then did way back
in twenty twenty. Three at the, time THE ow was

(02:37:54):
the largest union to do, so and In december of
twenty twenty, Three fain gave a speech IN dc along
Side Congress Rowman Corey busch And Rashida talib calling for
a ceasefire and for aid to Enter. Gaza brovsky Called
faine to express dissatisfaction with this, resolution And faine claims

(02:38:16):
That brovsky called him an anti. Semite brovsky also forwarded
a letter to the union from THE adl claiming THAT
auaw local was antisemitic for supporting the. Ceasefire Detroit news
reported That brovsky quote acknowledged the matter was outside The monitor's,
jurisdiction but said he was forwarding it quote given the

(02:38:38):
serious concerns raised here unquote to quote an article in
The American prospect Quote at THE Uaw Executive Board's february
twenty twenty four, meeting members asked Why brovsky was involving
himself in the union's, politics While borrovsky protested he was
not really seeking a policy change from. Them infuriated by

(02:39:02):
Both broski's charges and his, Denials fain, said quote for
anyone to ever fucking say Anti, semitic, Brother i'll fight
your ass in front of this building in a heartbeat.
Unquote within weeks of that, Meeting brosky initiated an investigation
Of faine's interactions with SEVERAL uaw leaders. Unquote In Sean

(02:39:24):
fayne's recent statement regarding the DOJ's, investigation he, claimed, Quote
Neil barowski has a political grudge against me because THE
uaw took an anti war stance about what was happening In.
Gaza Under Sean, fayn THE uaw has moved in a
much more militant direction and has BACKED dsa candidates running

(02:39:45):
on working class platforms and states going against some other
union coalitions who were backing progressive or establishment, dems like
In New york With Claire, valdez where THE uaw Backed
claire and a coalition of OTHER us unions Backed Antonio.
Renoso faine has been a very effective union president who

(02:40:06):
has won a lot of big contract, victories and in
his statement addressing the, investigation he, wrote, Quote we've accomplished
more in the past three years and three months than
in the previous. Decades this is what happens when you
go against Corporate. America and their, allies And i'm not
going to be intimidated or harassed out of serving our.
Membership our election is in six. Weeks neilbrowski will not

(02:40:30):
run our union no matter how hard he, tries and
no company sell out Like boyer is going to dictate
our elections.

Speaker 5 (02:40:37):
UNQUOTE i think it's worth going over here sort of
the general dynamics of union, elections which is that for
basically every major union largely would elections come down. To
this is how THE uaw was run for. Decades there
is usually something that's called like The Administrative caucus or
the Admin, caucus which tends to be the long term

(02:40:57):
sort of ruling. CLIQUE i guess of the union that
it usually has held power. Continuously they're kind, of as
it felt power for. Decades The teamsters were like, This
THE uaw was like this Until Sean fain One Sean
fayne is From there's usually something called a reform. Faction, yeah,
yeah who are a further left, faction and then there's
also usually like A trotskyite one that gets seven. Votes but,

(02:41:21):
yeah and you, know the sort of important, thing As
garret was talking, about was that this is the first
time that A Reform caucus had put like straight up
one of their guys in charge of a major. Union
you can look at The teamsters, too but Like teamsters
for A Democratic union always kind of had a tenuous
relationship ish with their new president and he kind of

(02:41:41):
sucks in a way That Sean fayne like, doesn't, yeah
largely does.

Speaker 30 (02:41:45):
Not.

Speaker 5 (02:41:45):
Yeah he has been the most militant of the major
union leaders in THE, us you, know like there was
the strike a few years ago that we covered on the.
SHOW i, mean and this is another example of THE oja. Weaponization.

Speaker 3 (02:41:57):
Yeah, yeah the job administration is going after someone who
is not only securing big wins for the, union but
is also involving himself in these other, elections these other
social causes Like. Palestine, yeah and also has been a
really outspoken voice in favor of, immigration yeah and against,
yeah opression Of mike. Workers so this is absolutely in

(02:42:20):
part Targeting thane because of his, yeah opposition to a
lot of the things such up administration is, doing and
that opposition and support of THE uw has been helping
working class candidates get into office to then oppose these
things In. CONGRESS i don't know how to Segue, OKAY
i got. THIS i got, This, garrison don't. Worry i'm

(02:42:41):
a professional.

Speaker 5 (02:42:43):
Speaking speaking of bowel movements In. Michigan oh, god let's
talk explosive. Diarrhea oh. Yeah THE uiw is also. Supporting al,
said you're, right you're. Right that is a good segue
and speaking Of, michigan oh. God, Okay so there has
been a large outbreak centered In michigan of a parasite

(02:43:06):
called silaspora that appears to be spreading through something like
fresh salad, greens although THE cdc is still not. Sure,
yes and we'll get to we'll we'll get to more
on why they're not. Sure my four year old diet
continues to reign. Supreum. God SO i think it's worth noting,
that you, know this is something that a lot of

(02:43:29):
writers have pointed. Out there's always like small outbreaks of
silospora during the. Summer so you'll see documents of you,
know like cases in other states that are not in
the sort of group we're going to talk about in a,
Second and that's fairly. Normal that's just that's just sort
of the you, know that's just sort of the disease. Cycle, However,
comma there's been over two thousand cases In, michigan and

(02:43:51):
that is not normal at. All, now this specific, outbreak
for what we know so far from THE cdc see
it seems like there is an outbreak In, Michigan, Ohio West,
virginia And. Kentucky and these ones seem to actually be
connected to each, other unlike the sort of disparate cases
elsewhereround the, country which are just seemed to kind of

(02:44:13):
right now look like a little bit higher than the
normal background noise of what you would expect in a
very large. Country if you're like In, michigan it's maybe
worth not buying like bag, salads and if you're gonna buy,
lettuce buy like a head of lettuce and like throw
away the outside of. It if you're not In, michigan,
like don't really worry about. This you're probably gonna be.

(02:44:34):
Okay but the REASON i want to talk about this
outbreak is that specifically it's been, exacerbated at least in
part BY rfk juniors firing of ten thousand health and
human services. Workers, now as a result of these, cuts
the Food Borne Diseases Active Surveillance network went from tracking
six pathogens to only tracking two and lo and. Behold,

(02:44:58):
okay so this timing genuinely a. Coincidence but they cut
the surveillance tracking On july, first and one of the
passages they were, tracking why. Cyclospora so this is going,
great and obviously this outbreak would have happened. Anyways it's
not responsible to draw a direct causal link from these

(02:45:19):
cuts to, oh there's this outbreak, Now but what it
has done is slow the response to, it because what
was one of the world's best surveillance systems has been
absolutely gutted because they fired ten thousand people or, well,
okay it's a combination of fired and forced out and
people taking, like you, know people taking some of the
packages that they've been. Offered, yeah, yeah those deferred RESIGNATION doge. Offers,

(02:45:44):
yeah this is a very explosive example of. This but
what's happening here is one manifestation of the slow crumbling
of general state.

Speaker 4 (02:45:56):
Capacity.

Speaker 5 (02:45:57):
Right there are a lot of regulatory agencies and a
lot of scientific agencies whose you, know budgets and staffs
have been cut, massively and the systems that they run
are well designed enough and the people who actually do
them care about them enough that they tend not to collapse. Immediately,

(02:46:17):
Right that's not the sort of model of state collapse
that we're sort of dealing with, Here. Right it's not
that everything just suddenly stopped. Working what happens is, slowly over,
time things that we used to have we simply don't have,
anymore you. Know along these sort of, Lines one of
the other like slow acting symptoms of this sort of
carving out of The american scientific state and its regulatory

(02:46:39):
capacity is that weather praditions have gotten less. Accurate and
the reason they've gotten less accurate is because there is
a large number of weather balloons that used to be
deployed every single day to collect weather information that you
can't get any other, way that have been shut down
because they just don't have the staff to run. Them
and so this is a thing we're going to be

(02:46:59):
seeing and more of over the next honestly probably the
rest of our. Lives is that the pieces of the
state that we're torn apart By doge and we're torn
apart BY Rfk junior going, through there's just going to
be things that we don't think about that suddenly get. Worse,
Right and it's also worth, noting, right, like you, know

(02:47:20):
something THAT i think you, can to some extent point
to for this specific outbreak is that there's been damage
done to food testing that dates back to like the
First trump, administration, Right and when we're talking about something
like food safety, standards, right or we're talking about workplace safety,
standards it's important to understand that there are two kinds

(02:47:43):
of regulations in this. World there are regulations that are
written in the ink of, lobbyists and there are regulations
that are written the blood of. Workers and the ones
that are being cut right now are the ones that
are written in. Blood and so you, know right now
we have a story that sucks but is at least
kind of silly in a bunch of explosive. Diarrhea but

(02:48:05):
as the state capacity continues to, degrade it's going to
get more and more. Grim, yeah as you, know basic
scientific and regulatory functions that we all have just come
to rely on to not eat poison every, day crumble
will start the fall.

Speaker 3 (02:48:20):
Apart your point about there being two different types of,
REGULATIONS i think is really important because people often just
think of regulation as it's like just this singular kind
of mechanism that the state can, deploy and, no, yeah it.

Speaker 5 (02:48:33):
Is it is.

Speaker 4 (02:48:33):
Not it's.

Speaker 3 (02:48:36):
There is regulations that will protect workers that are achieved by,
workers and there's regulations that only serve corporate interests or
make things more difficult or cumbersome for workers to go
about their daily lives and enjoy the public services and
like the public goods and the infrastructure that that we.
Have and this is sort of like hacking away at

(02:48:57):
state capacities you're talking, about which is like very obviously
on display In trump's second administration through stuff like Dew it's,
right this is kind of the main project of conservatism
since like the seventies and.

Speaker 5 (02:49:07):
Eighties, yeah, WELL i think WHAT i would also say
about that, though that there IS i think there is
an important distinction between what's happening here and what's what you,
know if you look at Like, reagan for, Example, yeah
which is like a lot of what those states were
doing was you, know an attempt to transition from the
state sort of having a welfare capacity to a state
just being a purely military. Entity, Right but those people

(02:49:31):
also weren't doing this kind of stuff in the sense
that they weren't just like shutting down the weather balloons
because you, know like even Like GEORGE. W bush isn't
just like shutting down every weather balloon he can, find
because there used to be an understanding that there's supposed
to be stay capacity in place or expanded that would

(02:49:52):
help the ruling class stay in.

Speaker 4 (02:49:53):
Power.

Speaker 5 (02:49:53):
Right this is why you see like the expansion of
the police through this, period this massive increase in police
and military, budgets and also why you would see in
a lot of cases you would see expansions of scientific.
Budgets and why you, wouldn't for, example just start doing.
This The reagan administration did a lot of replacing regulations
written in blood with regulations written in, ink but they

(02:50:14):
didn't just gut basic scientific capacity that was useful to
capital in the way that's happening. Here look like another
part of, this right is like it was it was
strategically important to someone Like bush and someone Like reagan
that THE us would maintain like a large scale scientific. Advantage,

(02:50:34):
Right so if you want to do, that you don't
go through and just start annihilating the grant process by
which All american science is. Done, Right, sure stuff that
like those people didn't do because they had a better
understanding of how The american empire, works and these people
are doing it because they have bought the propaganda line
about what their ideology is supposed to be instead of
actually executing their, ideology like you, know having the sort

(02:50:58):
of scientific state capacity to like fuel the corporations that
their power relies. On, yeah the contradictions of the project
are more clearly manifest and something like, this whereas you,
know the sort of like privatization and like the removal
of like social services Under reagan still allowed you, know
government funds and involvement towards things that would help like
infuse the economy in some, ways you, know trickle down,

(02:51:20):
way something that really did not help a lot of
a lot of workers in the. Moment, well they help
the economy meeting corporation make more money every, year, yes
versus the sort of expansion of this privatization towards things, like,
yeah we should not have the government be funding weather
balloons that can be privatized instead all these things that
the private sector cannot do as well as a central

(02:51:43):
government body cannot do without the backing with central government
body inside of. Funding is another example of. This you,
know sometimes THE rfk forces or whatever will like realize
that what they're doing is actually going to hurt their
core driving, factor which is which is serving, capital and
they will like backtrack on some, things but it follows
the sort Of Silicon valley.

Speaker 3 (02:52:04):
Mindset it's like move fast and break. Things then you'll
learn that maybe you broke something you shouldn't have. Broken
but the consequence of that is that in the meantime
you have thousands people shitting.

Speaker 5 (02:52:13):
Themselves, yeah or worse or or. Worse, yeah an, amazing
amazing country that we've designed. Here it's it's going great
and no bad things are going to happen and are
happening now before we.

Speaker 3 (02:52:28):
Go there's there's two pieces of news that have dropped since.
Recording oh, Boy pete Haig seth is recommending quote unquote
testosterone replacement, Therapy Oh, god for soldiers aged thirty and
older in a video titled The high Tea department Of,
War So prepare For. It onslaught of really bad like

(02:52:49):
liberal jokes about how The department Of war is doing
gender affirming therapy Now Jesus christ and about thirty minutes,
ago one one hundred and Three democrats voted to eliminate
aid To. Israel ninety six voted against, this ten voted

(02:53:10):
Present this is a pretty big change from what a
vote like this would have been a few years. Ago
this is still like a performative vote, ultimately like there's
no way that this is going to. Pass, yeah but
those ninety Three democrats who voted against, this that is
a primary. List that is a list of targets to go.

Speaker 5 (02:53:28):
After. ANYWAY i think that's the news that we reported. Today,
yeah put a transcurl on your. Couch we reported the.
News we reported the.

Speaker 2 (02:53:39):
News, Hey we'll be Back monday with more episodes every
week from now until the heat death of The.

Speaker 17 (02:53:50):
Universe It Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone.
Media for more podcasts from Cool Zone, media visit our
Website coolzonemedia dot, com or check us out on The
iHeart radio, App Apple, podcasts or wherever.

Speaker 9 (02:54:02):
You listen to.

Speaker 17 (02:54:03):
Podcasts you can now find sources For It Could happen,
here listed directly in episode.

Speaker 1 (02:54:07):
Descriptions thanks for.

Speaker 17 (02:54:08):
Listening

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