Part Four: How Jeffrey Epstein Helped Build the Modern World

In our thrilling conclusion, Robert explores how the Ferguson protests and the right-wing fear-mongering around them radicalized Jeffrey Epstein and his rich friends into fascism.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media, welcome back for the last time today, I
guess or this week Behind the Bastards.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're done with the Epstein Update episodes for now. This
this episode will be our last. Andrew T welcome back
to the show.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Oh thanks, thanks, thanks and scare quotes for having.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, thanks and scare quotes the only thanks we get here.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
I realized what your show is. You're you're sort of
like just like a low mimetic version of The Ring
where yeah, after after having been on the show or
listening to it, you know, in seven days, you will
want to die. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, that's that's the That's that's what we go for
here at Behind the Bastards is to make all of
our listeners want to die.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Just the god. Now, you know what, less this has
been less grim than I thought it was going to be.
I will say not that it's not grim.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
But the nice thing that's weird saying the night Andrew
doing these Epstein episodes is that we already did the
ones where we talked there's a lot more detail out now,
and we probably should at some point go back, but
we talked at length in the previous like four episodes
about all of the horrible sex trafficking crimes. So the
fact that we're just kind of focusing mostly on other
stuff here makes it less nightmarish than if we're just

(01:19):
going over all of the evidence of child molestation. Yeah,
not that we don't want to be highlighting that, but
we did, and everyone knows that stuff, and I think
this is also important, so we're getting into it.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Of course, I'm still pretty scow.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, I know, there's a lot that makes me sad.
As I said, I'm still an earlier episode. It's like,
even without that shit, he would be one of the
worst people ever.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's one of those things. If it
weren't for the fact that he was also the giant
pedophile guy, I probably wouldn't be writing about just Jeffrey
Epstein's because, for one thing, we just don't know. There's
a lot of like did he actually get moot to
create Pole or no? Like right, we just will never know.
But because of the other stuff, like I feel like
we do have to talk about how deeply tired he

(02:05):
is to all of these massively important things that are
happening in society, that he's talking to the major players
and trying to convince them of things right. It's weird
because this is kind of the only behind the bastards
where for the most part, I'm saying like, well, we
know he was trying to do something with this bad thing,
but we don't know how he influenced this bad thing,
which we don't normally do here. But I don't know

(02:25):
how else to handle Epstein right now, right.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
We also don't know the history of everything that you know,
this band thing which is in progress.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Ryan Brodericks says, you know, Michael Wolfe probably connected Epstein
and Bannon in twenty seventeen, but there's evidence from earlier
that they would have known about each other, and we're
traveling in similar circles, but I can't prove they were
in contact earlier. But also millions of documents haven't been
released yet, so like who knows what else there is?

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, right, right?

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Or did Bannon used to have a different email, right
and it wasn't under his name? I don't know. There
may be early emails for them under different emails in
the files that we just haven't found because it's not
immediately clear that it's banning yet. There's stuff like that
people have talked about, like JK Rowling, how like, well,
she definitely he was on the invite list for you know,

(03:14):
the Harry Potter play when it opened, but she says
they had no direct connection. There's not really hard evidence
of a direct connection. But there is an email with
a cinder redacted where it signed the way JK. Rowling
sometimes signs stuff, but that's not conclusive. So I don't know, right,
And hopefully as more stuff comes out, maybe there is
even more about her in the current files that just

(03:35):
haven't been found yet because people we haven't No one
knows everything that's in these files yet. Stuff's being found
every day, right, So that's one of the issues with
this is that I decided there was enough obviously for
four episodes now, but in a year, people will probably
be angry at you, Well you left this out well
because people aren't found yet. I don't know, man like,

(03:57):
or there's stuff I know I'm leaving out now that
I did find that was on my research doc that
I was just like, well, this is forty two pages long.
We got to call it somewhere, huhh.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
And you know what, that's the beauty of podcasting. There's
always more podcasts.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's the beauty of podcasting. You can always say good enough.
You know who else said good enough? Nope, that's a
bad way to talk about the Ferguson.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
You're surely not doing that, Nope.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
But we are starting with Ferguson in this episode. It's
very relevant to Jeffrey Epstein's intellectual journey because I've been
talking about ah Well. Obviously, the fact that he got
arrested in trouble has an impact on him because a
lot of his behavior seems to shift. He gets born
too right wing stuff. But that's also happening to his
whole community. All these tech billionaires and rich finance guys
are getting more pilled in the two thousands about this

(04:52):
stuff anyway. So maybe it would have happened if he
hadn't gotten convicted of anything. But there's a definite moment
that we can fairly easily say had a big impact
on how Jeffrey Epstein thought about the world, and it's Ferguson.
On August tenth, twenty fourteen, Ferguson, Missouri police officer Darren
Wilson shot Michael Brown and killed him. There were protests immediately,

(05:15):
and some people used the opportunity of the protests to
loot and engage in other criminal activity. The police are
included in the criminal activity that occurs after this shooting
because they're violence. In the fact that they all looked
like fucking soldiers kicked off further unrest and a national debate.
You all probably lived through pieces of this. I'm not
going to re litigate everything that happened in Ferguson, but

(05:35):
the basics of it are very relevant to the Jeffrey
Epstein story because Ferguson wasn't just a tragedy in its
own right. It was a prelude to mass protests in
the wake of George Floyd's murder in twenty twenty, but
it also helped to inspire the fascist backlash that first
made itself obvious when mister Donald Trump announced his presidency
on June sixteenth, twenty fifteen. I don't think it's focused

(05:56):
on enough how close Ferguson is in time to Trump
announcing the start of his campaign, and how many older
white people with money see the videos from Ferguson of
the protests of these crowds of mostly black people who
are very rightfully angry and get fucking terrified, right because
they see this as stirrings of the kind of race

(06:18):
riots that they've never stopped fearing. Now we know that
Epstein began donating to far right content creators and talking
very openly about race science in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen,
not long after Ferguson, And we know that he paid
close attention on what was happening in Ferguson from an
early point, and that he talked about his predictions for
what might happen next with one of his good friends,

(06:41):
former Israeli Prime Minister at Hud Barack fucking well, no,
fucking it's always and then he talked about it with
his friend, this influential monster.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
I'm just saying, he's the Where's walthough of fat guys.
He's fucking everywhere.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
He really fucking is now in ways that.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Don't even always make sense to It's just like it
feels like they're the writer's just cramming in mon Man.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I guess he hasn't shown up in the show for
a while. Bring hood Barack in, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
How'd that friendship start? Do we know?

Speaker 3 (07:17):
You know?

Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm sure it's there's information about that one, because he's
one of the guys we knew was an Epstein friend
way before the releases started, right, they've been very like
publicly buddies. So what happens here is Michael Brown gets
shot in Ferguson and protests start, right, Yeah, And Jeffrey
at some point, probably pretty soon after that, is talking

(07:38):
with a hood Barack and says, here's what I think's
going to happen next, right, and like lays out a
prediction for what's going to happen to Ferguson. And we
don't know exactly what that prediction was or what he said,
but we do know that on November twenty fourth, a
grand jury fails to indict Wilson for killing Michael Brown.
More protests follow, and some people respond to a man
getting away with murder by rioting. Police cars are burned.

(08:00):
There's a murder of a man in a parked car.
It's really unclear, I think still who does that and
why that happens, But it's a big deal, right. What
happens in Ferguson in November of that year is like
hugely influential all across the country. On November twenty sixth,
two days after the grand jury fails to indict Wilson,
a hud Barak sends this email to Jeffrey Epstein that

(08:22):
you're seeing on your screen right now. Jeff, you've accurately
predicted the eruption, and together we'd predicted the mistakes which
will follow. Let's hope it won't get worse. Ari, light
and strong. I'll call you tomorrow morning. Your time, best,
eb And then he's linked there a CEE in an
article called Ferguson braces for more unrest. Right, So, I

(08:42):
want to really emphasize what's happening here. Jeffrey is concerned
enough about the potential of race riots in the United
States that he's like looking for them. So as soon
as Ferguson happens, he is concerned, and he reaches out
to his friend, who he thinks would be the best
friend to talk to about his fear that a racial
minority in his country is getting violent, the former Prime

(09:08):
Minister of Israel. Okay, there's a lot, a lot you
can read into this conversation.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
Right boy, how I hate them all?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
So I think Ferguson has a lot to do with
why the next year, Epstein sends twenty five thousand dollars
to a white nationalist YouTube, Right, I think it has
a lot to do with a lot of shit that follows.
I think it has a lot to do with why
he starts reading fucking Breitbart.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Now.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
I've talked in other episodes. We've known for a while
that Epstein had a weird obsession with seeding his own
DNA into the human race, and our previous episodes we
talked about how he had discussed with his friends that
he wanted to have a stud ranch where women would
raise his babies and the babies of other genius men.
He talked about this, both want to I need to
have a lot of babies for the good of mankind,

(09:53):
and also obviously smart people should be the ones having
basy eugenicist right, he's talking this is Elon Muskshit. He's friends,
you know, but he's interested in the same kind of
stuff and absent other informations. When I first cover this,
I chalked it up as more classic rich guy narcissism.
My immediate thing was like, oh, this guy wants a
bunch of kids because he's a narcissist, and I didn't

(10:16):
really see oh no, no. This guy is also very
specifically a white nationalist, right, a budding white nationalist at
the very least which Epstein is. By this point, the
releases have made this different picture very clear, and I
think it makes the most sense when you look at
it through the prism a Ferguson. An article on futurism

(10:36):
dot com describes how Jeff's interests evolved after Ferguson. In
twenty sixteen, Epstein emailed German cognitive scientist and then MIT
professor Joshua Bach, indicating that he was interested in the
idea of genetically modifying black people to make them smarter.
The Telegraph found Bach had received a roughly four hundred
thousand dollars donation from Epstein. Those are tied, that's tied

(11:01):
to his interpretation of Ferguson. And that's not a small donation.

Speaker 4 (11:06):
It's just a fucking freaking little race science nazi.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's just a race scientist. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
I mean, but that's like conservatives, right, That is like
the extent loss is also the other way to look
at it is this is cutting edge conservative thought and
it has been from the last however many thousands of years.
This is as good as it gets for these people.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, yeah, and you know it's one of those things.
Obviously he's afraid of Black Americans, and this fear was
heightened by Ferguson, but also just given a social life.
He's social a lot with wealthy and influential and famous
black people, right, So he's not the kind of racist
who can't be friendly to some black people, right. He
obviously can. But his conversations with his fellow white intellectuals,

(11:50):
or at least he saw himself as intellectual, made it
clear that he saw successful and intelligent black people as outliers.
And when you really want to get into how racist
Jeff Epstein is by twenty sixteen, there's no better place
to go.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
Huh hey when you call him Jeff Jeffy.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
There's no better way to talk about how fucking racist
Jeffrey Epstein has become by twenty sixteen than to look
at his emails with Nom Chomsky. Oh no, oh no.
On Sunday, February seventh, twenty sixteen, Jeff emailed Nome after
apparently hanging out together. So he had been hanging out

(12:28):
with Nome and I guess Nome's partner that night because
he says thank you both for tonight, and then he
tells Noam Chomsky that hey, man, if you want I
can have my private jet, the Lalita Express, pick you
up in Boston and take you to my private island
and return whenever you like. Right, and Nome calls this
invitation eight years after Epstein had been exposed for child
sex trafficking tempting. Now, maybe he's just blowing Jeffrey off here,

(12:54):
but Epstein doesn't read it that way. Epstein takes Noam
Chomsky's response as an invitation to keep chatting, this time
about racism, so he continues. After inviting him to his
sex island, he says, on a different note, you have
encouraged me to look at data, no holds barred mortgages, inequalities, opportunities.
I have seen some things through your eyes, and for

(13:14):
that I am grateful. The test score gap amongst African
Americans is well documented twenty years of and then he
spells testing testsing many, which might be said to like,
if you can't spell the word testing right, maybe your
complaints about other people that are smart issue are kind
of bullshit. But he continues many countries. James Watson, who's

(13:36):
the racist guy who helped or arguably helped figure out
the structure of DNA and was also like a DNA
show like black people learn as smart as white people. Guy, right,
James Watson big racist?

Speaker 3 (13:47):
Right?

Speaker 2 (13:48):
So Epstein continues, James Watson had some of his private
views made public and hints his dismissal from society. He
told me that after one sentence he became an un
person making things and he spells the word things wrong.
Better might require accepting some uncomfortable facts. You told me that.
So this is Epstein broaching a conversation with Chomsky. Hey,

(14:08):
you know you told me to look at the data. Well,
let's convince me that racism's right. How do you think
about that? Nom Chomsky? And no, and I get is no.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
I'm like you're yeah, yeah, brother, No I No.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Nome pushes back, I will say that, okay, right. Nome
pushes back, and he points out that like, obviously, outcomes
for some a kid like me when I was a kid,
are going to be different from a kid that quote
is part of a group that for four hundred years,
had a chance for about two or three decades to
enter the mainstream society, and then with a constant legacy
of miserable racism. He's being like, yeah, of course, skills

(14:41):
will be lower because like our society hurts these people
their entire lives, and that impacts test scores. Right, that's
what Chomsky is saying. Right. He says that Epstein's data
has no scientific interest, but he also says the greater
issue is for later discussion, which I find interesting. Chomsky
knows this is bullshit. He knows what his friend is
saying is offensive, and he says kind of that. But
then he's like, but we can talk about this later.

(15:03):
You know you want to keep talking. I'm always down
to talk about race science with you. Jeffrey Epstein, though,
doesn't take the hint, and he keeps the conversation going.
He admits that he's aware of the potential for abuse
with genetic engineering and eugenics. However, imagine that a set
of genes could be used for working memory, like the
ones for tay Sacks disease could be found and adjusted

(15:23):
not looking seems cruel. And he's bringing up the argument
that anyone makes if you're trying to convince a hostile source,
that you need to accept the initial tenets of eugenesis, thinking, well, look,
obviously there's problems with this, Yeah, but look at this
horrible disease that happens to kids when they're in the womb.
If you could knock that out, wouldn't that be good? Right?
Wouldn't that be good?

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Do you hate kids?

Speaker 2 (15:45):
And like anyone's gonna say, like, yeah, what if we
could make kids who have their lungs born on the
outside of their bodies have their lungs on the inside
of their bodies? Great? But then the conversation goes from
there to like, what if we want to make sure
that people aren't born with a certain skin color? And

(16:06):
one of the things that's interesting to me is that, like,
if you are at a eugenicist and you're trying to
like corrupt someone right and get them to agree with you,
you'll start the way that Jeffrey ends here, which is weird.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
You don't start with, Hey, i've been looking at the
numbers and it looks like black people aren't a smart
as white people. That's not how you start that conversation.
And Epstein does, and then Chomsky smacks him down, and
so Epstein pivots and he ends whe The conversation normally
starts where he's like, well, what about these kids with
tas SAXS disease? Should we be fixing that, right, Chomsky
calls Jeff's proposition almost inconceivable and then says, but if

(16:38):
it could be done, I think there would be far
more important uses, like changing the genes for dedicated savagery
and lack of concern for the welfare or even security
of the population on the part of that sector of
educated elites that reaches positions of power. And I'd love
to appreciate that response more if he wasn't sending it
to his friend Jeffrey Epstein's who continued to communicate with

(17:00):
for years after his arrests for sexual trafficking.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
I mean, but I think the thing is in the
frat house version of it. This is just like ribbing
because you know, right, Oh, that's Jeff's foible. He's a
fucking pedophile fascist. We can all joke about that. Yeah,
Like it's the chumminess.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
That's like, it's the friendliness, but it's the you could, yeah,
it's the chomp the fact that he's so willing to
continue this relationship, right, Yeah, I mean you could, I
guess if you wanted to feel good that. Chomsky pushes back,
but he keeps hanging out with Epstein repeatedly in person,
they hang out in person a lot that's fucked up.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
I mean it's it's also the like like not a
real pushback if you're like, it's not a real stone.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
No, And it's what we see here. And one of
the reasons why this is really interesting to me not
just to like shit on no Chompsky. I don't really
care about that one way or the other. What this
is evidence of is as an active attempt by Epstein
to influence Noam Chomsky, who is himself very influential on
the American left, to try and further mainstream scientific racism.
That's what he's doing here. He is trying to get

(18:11):
Chomsky to start going down the road he's going down
because he knows Chomsky can influence in even a large
chunk of the country and maybe make them more amenable
to scientific racism. That's what he's trying to do because
that's how Jeffrey thinks about everyone who's his quote unquote friend, right.
He thinks about them in terms of what can I
get out of them, And that's how he's thinking about
Chomsky during this convert There's other stuff he gets from Chomsky, obviously,

(18:32):
but this is one thing he's trying to get and
that he doesn't seem to get out of him. It's
the same playbook we saw Epstein to play with Bobby Kotick, right,
this is how he operates. What these new files reveal
is that Jeffrey Epstein was an active and influential part
of the reactionary wave often just called the alt right
that's struck from twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen and brought
us all the authoritarian bullshit we're living with today. He's

(18:53):
a part of that, and he's trying to bring Chomsky
into it right. A huge part, well, Chomsky does. A
huge part of the class that he's a part of
follows him down this road. And part of why they
do is because Epstein works on them one by one
to encourage them to think differently and to ask uncomfortable questions.
He's not the only one doing this, right, He's not

(19:14):
the leading one doing this. Part of why all of
these Silicon Valley guys go fash is that a core
of them start by saying like, well as the brain
trust in America is is the only ones who are
really intelligent, I really know what's going on. Because of
all the money we've made it's incumbent on us to
ask uncomfortable questions and you know, to consider things that

(19:35):
that less intelligent people might consider forbidden. You know, so
let's look into it, right, And that always just means racism.
That's the only thing that means, right.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, Well, sometimes it's a little bit of gender science
and masada and sometimes pedophilia.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, there are, there are. And I can remember as
a kid there's this big book called Disinfo that I
read that was like, it was a bunch of essays
about uncomfortable questions, challenging traditional logic and ethics, right, and
I found parts of it very interesting, And then I
got to an essay that was like, oh, this guy's
just arguing about fucking kids. Oh that's what this is about.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
This is it? Yeah, well but it's the same thing why.
It's why Anne Rand is appealing when you're like fucking fourteen, right,
because you don't know anything. But once you learn something,
most people at least Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
And it's these fuckers talk all the time about uncomfortable
questions and challenging orthodoxy, and not one of them will
be like, hey, what if we just didn't have billionaires
in money, like what we uh, what if we didn't
do that? What if you couldn't like just throw a
bunch of money into a thing and then own thousands
of people's livelihoods because you were born rich. What if
that was not a thing we could do? Like, that's

(20:55):
not the dangerous questions. It's all like, what if black
people aren't people like that's the dangerous question? Or what
if fifteen year olds are fine to have sex with
Those are the dangerous questions that the intellectuals are always
talking about when they say dangerous questions. And Jeffrey Shift
here his interest in this shit, That's what I'm trying
to say. Like all of he is not novel. He

(21:17):
has more influence than most, but a lot of these
guys are thinking the same way, and he's using his
money to support and encourage them to continue this shift.
And I want to tell a story that kind of
makes this point for me. And the story starts with
the guy named John Brockman. Brockman is a major figure
in the New York art scenes starting in the nineteen sixties.
He is a peer of Andy Warhol, and he eventually

(21:37):
becomes one of the most powerful literary agents in the city.
His specialty is books about science and futurism, and he
works with big name academics and thinkers, which means that
he makes a lot of money. Brockman describes himself as
a cultural impresario. Right sure man, cool cool.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
Yeah, already don't like you, my guyen ninety.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
He creates the Edge Foundation. This is an informal association
of intellectuals who meet primarily online, and this is seen
as a digital evolution from an older similar group that
met in person called the Reality Club. The Reality Club
we're getting back in American intellectual tradition by a few
decades here. But the Reality Club per an article on

(22:20):
their own website, I'm going to talk about like what
this group was. Reality Club members presented their work with
the understanding that they will be challenged. The hallmark of
the Reality Club has been rigorous and sometimes impolite discourse.
The motto of the Club was inspired by the late
artist philosopher James Lee Byers to arrive at the edge
of the world's knowledge, seek out the most complex and
sophisticated minds, put them in a room together, and have

(22:41):
him ask each other the questions they are asking themselves.
And that's a great idea. It's a beautiful idea. We've
hit the edge of the world's knowledge. Let's get the
smartest people together to see if we can extend that edge.
But what happens James Lee byers his whole abilities that
this will let us accomplish the extraordinary, right, But what
actually happens is when these guys get together, primarily they

(23:04):
talk about like what if people couldn't vote if they
were poor, what if we had more money, what if
I could fuck teenage girls? Those are like the three
big issues at the edge of human knowledge that these
guys are really interested in it.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
It's like, as you said, the idea of the club
seems cool, like with the additional caveat that, like anytime
anything like that has ever existed in all of human history,
it's always self. Self proclaiming that you fit these attributes
is pretty much the main reason you should not ever
be part of the discussion like this.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
I think one of the things Einstein would have point
out to these people is that if you have locked
yourself out as being the absolute smartest in society and
are isolating yourself from everybody else, it's probably evidence that
you're not the smartest people in society. Yeah, but Brockman
really loves this idea. He considers these.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
People always love this shit.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, and he's you know, I don't know much about him,
but he other than that, but he considers these scientists
and these other thinkers in the empirical space, the guys
that Epstein is hanging out with, these philosophers and bitcoin
nerds and whatnot. He calls them the third culture. That's
his term for these people, right, because they're separate from
the culture everyone else lives in, because their minds are

(24:17):
so far ahead of everyone else.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Brockman is close with Jeffrey Epstein, and he considers him
to be one of these Third Culture members who, through
their unusual insight and brilliance, are making the future. Brockman
is such an Epstein believer that he attends a dinner
at Jeff's mansion after he was released from prison. In
the New Republic of Ginny Morozov describes Brockman as the
intellectual enabler of Epstein. Brockman bragged that the edge foundation,

(24:42):
this salon of his was redefining who and what we are,
and he connected Epstein to important people because he wanted
his friend Jeff to have a chance to change the world. Now,
one of Brockman's clients is joy Edo of MIT and
in fact, Brockman may have been how Epstein and Itedo met.
He may have at least helped to encourage them to
become friends. We know many other prominent intellectuals like Stephen Pinker,

(25:06):
were first connected to Epstein by Brockman. So in a way,
Brockman has been with us this whole story, helping to
put up and coming technologists, thinkers, and researchers in a
room with a pedophile sex trafficker. When all of this dropped,
author of Jenny Morozov found himself shocked. His books were
represented by Brockman's agency, and he decided to look through
his emails with Brockman to see, like, are there any

(25:28):
signs that like something bad was going on here? And
he finds an email from twenty thirteen that really gives
you an idea of how Brockman and Epstein baited the
hook when they're trying to get these intellectuals interested in them. Right,
I'm going to quote from Morozov's article in the New
Republic here. It was very laconic. Je Fyi JB followed

(25:49):
by my short bio and some media clippings. Strangely, it
was sent to me and had no other contacts in CC.
Perhaps he wanted toscend it to JE but put my
email there by mistake. When I commented on the meaning
of this cryptic message, he responded with the following message,
reproduced here in full. I missed that one. Jeffrey Epstein,
the billionaire scientist philanthropists, showed up at this weekends event

(26:10):
by helicopter with his beautiful young assistant from Belarus. He'll
be in Cambridge in a couple of weeks and asked
me who he should meet. You are one of the
people I suggested, and I told him I would send
some links. He's the guy who gave Harvard thirty million
dollars to set up Martin Oak. He's been incredibly generous
and funding projects of many of our friends and clients.
He also got into trouble and spent a year in
jail in Florida. Crazy way to say he's a registered

(26:33):
child sex offender. He't got into trouble spend a year
in jail in Florida.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
I spent a year Jill, Florida.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
We've lost the plot, guys, come on, come on.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, it's like mentioning young young assistant is like, I mean,
obviously that's how they would do it, but like, yeah,
like what's wrong with you?

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Like I hate these people.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
If you wrote dialogue this heavy hand, you would absolutely
be run out of out of Hollywood, absolutely and in
a heartbeat, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Anyway, that's all nuts. But Brockman suggests that if Epstein
reaches reached out to Morozov, it's probably worth your time
to respond to him, right, so's he's basically being like,
and I don't even know if this missed email isn't
intentional or not, if he's like trying to whatever he
is sending Epstein information about this guy, and he's telling Morozov,

(27:30):
I know he's you know, he's he's a controversial figure,
but you should meet with him. He's really interesting and
obviously he's got a lot of money that he can
put towards your work.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
And then, after saying it's worth probably worth your time,
Brockman tells this story about Epstein. Last time I visited
his house, the largest private residence in New York City.
I walked in to find him in a sweatsuit and
a British guy in a suit with suspenders getting foot
massages from two young, well dressed Russian women. After grilling
me for a while about cybersecurity. The brit named Andy
was commenting on the Swedish author and the chargers against

(28:01):
Julian Assange. We think they're liberal in Sweden, but it's
more like northern England as opposed to southern Europe, he said.
In Monaco, Albert works twelve hours a day, but at
nine pm when he goes out, he does whatever he
wants and nobody cares. But if I do it, I'm
in big trouble. At that point I realized the recipient
of Arena's foot massage was his Royal Highness, Prince Andrew,
the Duke of York. Now Brockman is telling this story

(28:24):
because he thinks it's cool. He thinks it'll convince Morozov.
He's just gotta meet Epstein.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
WHOA.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
I walked in on him and the largest residence in
New York, and he was getting He was clearly hanging
out with two prostitutes and the fucking Prince Andrew, the
Duke of York. That's so I gotta get in on
that myself, you know, that's what why Brockman tells this story, right, Yes, there.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Is like a hindsight lens that like, obviously we know,
but yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
I mean I will see. Yeah, there's a who knows
what Brockman was entirely aware of, but I will see
in terms of the people who knew this was fucked
up at the time. Morizov gets this email and it's
like absolutely not right, I don't I don't want any
part of this shit. And he says that five fuck
that stuff, man, that sounds weird. And then Brockman changes

(29:18):
his attitude and it's like, yeah, okay. So Morozov's conclusion
is that Brockman was acted basically as Epstein's pr man,
and he does this because he needs Epstein. Epstein is
funding the whole Edge Foundation. Jeffrey's assorted donations provided six
hundred and thirty eight thousand of the eight hundred and
fifty seven thousand dollars in funding the organization received from

(29:40):
two thousand and one to twenty seventeen. Epstein was, per
BuzzFeed News, by far the largest donor. In fact, one
could argue the Edge Foundation and all its billionaire dinners
seem to have existed largely to connect Jeffrey Epstein to
tech billionaires in public intellectuals right, because one of the
things they start doing in the aunts is Rockman starts
putting together dinners with billionaires like that. They call it

(30:03):
the Billionaire Dinners, and Epstein's nearly always there. Right. Given
the private nature of these events, we don't fully know
what he used his influence to do, but he wouldn't
have put more than six hundred thousand dollars into this
foundation if it wasn't worth it to him. One regular
tradition was that Brockman would send out a list of
questions for the members of the Edge Foundation to answer

(30:24):
each year, like what is your dangerous idea? The answers
would be published on their website, which The Guardian called
the World's Smartest. So again, everyone's sucking these people off
in the odds. Brockman also used his influence to host
annual billionaires dinners, as I mentioned, and Epstein was a
common feature. This is how some major tech billionaires wind
up connected to Epstein via email via Mandy Castigan's article.

(30:48):
Quote email threads, which sometimes included Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos,
and Elon Musk, later turned into private conferences at Epstein
and Brockman's properties, as well as public events and debates.
Brockman Wants bragged to Epstein that the network of the
forty guests at my two fourteen Billionaire's dinner was equal
to the combined wealth of sixty percent of all Americans.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Yeah, honestly, that seems lower than I thought.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, isn't the dangerous idea that that's bad?

Speaker 4 (31:14):
I just like to think that they're like, all right, guys,
let's let's do an icebreak or so everybody gets to
know each other. What's your dangerous idea?

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, my dangerous idea is that all of you should
be fucking taken out by a drone strike like one
in that dinner would have saved the world some problems.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
My god, so juvenile. It's so juvenile.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
And idea that's like, that's like a bad fucking like
Tinder message, like.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Off again, fuck off all the billionaires at these billionaire's
dinners hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein, emailing with Jeffrey Epstein,
can see that he's going to be there, can see
that he's in the email threads, are talking him to
him sometimes on the email threads, and This is years
after his arrest and his conviction. Right, for most of
Jeffrey's donations to EDGE start after his arrest, and he

(32:06):
attends his first Billionaire's dinner in twenty eleven. Right, But
we know these dinners go back further, and we know
that in earlier years, like two thousand and three, his
close associate Sarah Kellen, was one of the few women
present at this dinner. To give a brief summary of
what exactly Sarah's role was in Epstein's operation, here's a
paragraph from an article about her divorce from NASCAR star

(32:26):
Brian Vickers. Court documents accused her of helping to arrange
illegal massage sessions with underage girls. In twenty twenty two,
a federal judge said she shared criminal responsibility while sentencing
Gilan Maxwell. However, authorities never filed criminal charges against Kellen. Kellen,
who worked with Jeffrey connecting people to illegal massage sessions,

(32:48):
is at the Billionaire's dinner in two thousand and three
before Jeffrey, as far as we know, is even at
these huh huh, interesting, I mean interesting, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
I.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
Imagine some this is somewhat like the rhetorical path you've
been leading us down. But it is like shocking how
much pedophilia is like an integral part of this whole
power structure everything these guys intellectualism, like it's always that,
it's somehow always that.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Once you get this kind of rich, the most painful
and annoying thing in the world is anyone telling you
you can't do something. And I think that that has
something to do with it. Some of these guys, I'm
sure would always have you know, gone after underaged, you know,
kids and stuff. But I do think some of it
might just be like the sense of impunity they have

(33:45):
that like nothing should be illegal for me, nothing should
be beyond me. Right, I don't know, and I don't
know who else. Maybe no one made Maybe Sarah didn't
connect anyone with legal massages at the Billionaire's Dinner. Maybe
she was just a great conversationalist who happened to as
a judge, says be deep complicit and Jeffrey Epstein's illegal
sex trafficking who knows? So that twenty eleven dinner Epstein

(34:06):
attended feature Jeff Bezos, Sergey Brinn, and Elon Musk, all
of whom deny doing anything but briefly meeting Epstein at
this event. This was not the only dinner he had
with some of these folks, though. In August of twenty fifteen,
billionaire Tom Pritzker, cousin of JB. Pritzker, asked Epstein if
he was available to hang out. Jeff replied, not sure yet.
I had dinner with Zuckerberg, Musk, Teal Hoffmann wild. And

(34:29):
then he sends a photo of this event, and it
looks Sylvie as shady as you'd guess. They're at like
a dark table. You can see Elon in one corner,
whoever took the photo is sitting right next to Mark
fucking Zuckerberg. Like it is just the shadiest looking dinner,
but it's also like.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
A moron's idea of what power looks like. It's like
rucking the Doctor Evil set up.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's the Doctor Evils? Does it does look like the
Doctor Evils set up? And Mark Zuckerberg looks like he's
rethinking being there, like maybe it's just sitting across from
Elon Musk is annoying as shit. I don't know.

Speaker 5 (35:05):
Yeah, oh man, the photo that must have been Epstein
taking it from right.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Maybe I don't know, but he's right. If so, then
he was right next to Mark Zuckerberg. I can't tell it.
That may be Priscilla Shan right next to him. Yeah,
I can't tell, but I can't. I can't tell. I
don't know everyone in the photo, but you can. I mean,
he says Bezos is there, and that's definitely Musk and
and Zuckerberg, right, speaking of people who went to dinners

(35:37):
with Elon Musk and Jeffrey Epstein, none of them support
this podcast. Maybe it's impossible to say.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, this is your least accurate ad throw I've heard.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yep, yeah, and we're back. So the Edge Foundation is
interesting to me because it's of what it is a
precursor for. This is like the more exclusive version for

(36:10):
actual powerful people. But the basic idea that like we're
going to ask hard questions and come up with the
future is going to come Like that's going to basically
be the operating principle for another group of annoying rich
guys who are going to come a few years later. Right.
In a write up for the trans News Network, Maddie

(36:31):
cast again more accurately describes the Edge Foundation as quote
a loose predecessor for the far right intellectual Dark Web.
And I think she's right on the money there, right,
or at least I think it's accurate to say the
intellectual dark web is taking some of these ideas, but
being like, look, number one billionaires don't have time to
write this bullshit. They're not thinking up stuff. They're they're
living out on their yachts, they're surfing. We got to

(36:53):
find some guys who aren't quite as rich who will
start thinking dangerous ideas and writing about maybe we should
be racist, maybe it is okay to have sex with children, right,
Like we need we need our we need our intellectual
dark web to get that information out to the PLBs. Right,
So I think there's some value in sort of looking

(37:14):
at it that way, right, To continue from her articles.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
A gang of people whose main like main skill is
somehow convincing at least some number of people that the
basic pervasive ideas of like your average KKK member is
somehow interesting and like Foreboden and like worth exploring.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
It's playing on one of the worst things about the
American psyche, which is our like deeply ingrained sense of
oppositional defiant disorder. Because if you just say, hey, you
know the things that everyone else says they're good, what
if they're bad? And then a bunch of people will
give you money and let you write for The Atlantic.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Uh, the Atlantic, which is run by a friend of
Jeffrey Epstein's anyway, whatever, so is the New York Times whatever?
Yeah so, to continue from Mandy Castigan's article for the
Trans News Network. During the research for this article, trans
News Network uncovered at least eight prominent anti transfigures affiliated
with Edge or with the IDW who received support from

(38:18):
Epstein or even visited his island, often through connections with
Brockman or physicist Lawrence Krauss. Now, it's noteworthy that so
many super smart Edge people as well as the IDW folks,
picked hating trans people as their dangerous intellectual idea. One
of the most noteworthy members of this crew is Epstein's
good friend Lawrence Kraus, As was stated in that quote above,

(38:40):
Kraus is a famous physicist and right wing crank who
taught at Arizona State University, where only the best scientists work.
In two thousand and six, he hosted a conference on
Epstein's island with Stephen Hawking. So he's responsible for all
the pictures of hawking that we have to think about now,
which don't necessarily implicate hawking and hawking. May have just

(39:01):
heard this is a science conference, because all of these
scientists are showing up at this island from this guy
who donates to science. It's two thousand and six. Epstein
hadn't been arrested yet. That said, for a lot of
these guys, there's a follow up conference in twenty ten,
after which point they knew who Epstein was. Kraus is
so close with Jeffrey that he becomes one of the

(39:21):
first guys to face public consequences for his relationship with Epstein.
In twenty eleven, Rebecca Watson attacked him for continuing to
associate with Epstein and justifying it by claiming science. Kraus
defended his friend and said, I don't feel lowered by
my association with Jeffrey. I feel raised by my friendship
with Jeffrey. And also he never raped any kids. Yeah,

(39:44):
it's a good call, Kraus.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Just pr just a pr G. You know, I guess
what else are you gonna say?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
But yeah, yeah, yeah. And for that piece in the
trans News Network, Epstein clearly noticed Kraus's vigorous de and
rewarded him for his loyalty. He pledged one hundred thousand
dollars to Kraus's project at ASU between twenty fourteen twenty eighteen,
and Epstein's billionaire benefactor and alleged child rapist, Leon Black,
subsequently pledged a whopping two million in twenty fifteen. Kraus

(40:15):
claimed he raised a total of four million dollars for
the project in twenty eighteen, meaning that a large portion
of his funding came from billionaires accused of child rape.
And my only correction that would be that, like again,
Epstein was really a billionaire now, But this does goes
to show when I say that, like you can't just
look at what Epstein gives. You have to look at
like what Leon Black is giving because Epstein told him to.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
Right. Yeah, it creates a yeah, like a like a
culture and some cover and just like a crowd to
hide yourself in.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Sure now. Kraus more recently had to step down from
Arizona State during the Me Too movement after he was
accused six separate times of sexual misbeaving work. I'm yeah,
he Lawrence Krauss. Everybody wow, he became and after he
gets in trouble. He becomes one of the first prompt
men who were brought low by me too to reach

(41:03):
out to Jeffrey Epstein for advice. We'll talk a little
bit more about that later, but jeff goes so far.
He's not just given Kraus advice. He's helping him like
craft his response. Like the open letter that he writes
about the allegations, which Kraus denied, but now we know
because we have this information, Epstein was giving him like
notes on it. Nattie cast again continues. While he has

(41:26):
long denied many of the allegations from his time at ASU,
Krause admitted to it, even tried to justify gratuitous sexual
comments about trans women he made around coworkers. In one
later removed section of his retirement letter. He also helpfully
included a grade school sketch of a light bulb that
he drew in front of colleagues. Since Kraus's retirement from
academia and hopefully sketch art, Epstein continued to advise and
fund him as he pivoted to building an anti trans

(41:48):
podcast on his YouTube channel and accompanying substack, where he's
interviewed a large number of turfs and other anti transfigures,
including other Epstein associates like Richard Dawkins and for a
note that light bulb sketch Jeff Drew. I know this
because of a fucking Dilbert book I read as a kid.
If you like, draw a light bulb in a certain
way and turn it upside down, it looks like a
woman who's bending over with her underpants on. That's what

(42:09):
Kraus is doing. One of our greatest minds. Truly a
master of physics, just a genius. All these men just
the that's they.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
They are good at one thing probably or okay, at
one thing. Yeah, is the problem?

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Most of them were or not? Is the problem?

Speaker 4 (42:28):
Just hate them all.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
I don't know how good Kraus was, but yeah, so
we've got Epstein funding a white nationalist YouTuber in twenty fifteen,
and then in twenty nineteen, one of his last actions
is helping to fund Kraus's anti trans propaganda. That's interesting, right,
and it gets worse. Epstein is also closely tied to
an evolutionary biologist named Robert Trivers. Now I had not

(42:50):
heard of this guy, but doctor F. Nichols wrote a
great piece on this for her website Queer Science Lab.
She started by just searching the Epstein files for the
word transsexual. Right now today, that is widely although I
have known some trans people who still use that term
for themselves, but it is why. It is an outdated
and offensive term as a general rule, that's like, you're
not you shouldn't be using that referring to if someone

(43:12):
wants to take that whatever, I'm not not for me
to speak about, right. But the reason why doctor Nichols
uses that term is because most of the men in
the Epstein files are older men. They're around Jeffrey's age,
and that term was even if you weren't trying to
be offensive, the term you would have used twenty or
thirty years ago.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
That's why she's searching for it, because these guys use
outdated terms for things. You know that. I just needed
to explain that. So she looks into Jeffrey and his
friends talking about trans issues, and she points out something
that gets left out a lot, including in my earlier
coverage of Epstein, which is that and I should have
found this information, but I didn't because it was out
at this point in time. So I want to correct
that now. The first woman to publicly accuse Jeffrey Epstein

(43:52):
of abuse was a transgender Latina woman named Ava Cordero.
She sued Epstein in October of two thousand and seven,
claiming that he forced her into bizarre and unnatural sex
when she was sixteen years old. Per an article in
LGBTQ Nation Quote. In her lawsuit, Cordero alleged that in
nineteen ninety nine, Epstein lured her to his mansion undressed

(44:12):
and requested a massage. Cordero said she felt frightened but agreed,
at which point Epstein suddenly began violently touching her genitals,
pushing her head downward, and demanding oral sex. She alleged
Epstein had lured her to his mansion in nineteen ninety
nine when she was sixteen. Right, so again, I just
really need to emphasize that.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
She agrees initially when he asks her to undress because
she's scared, and once he starts, he begins violently grabbing
her genitals and then grabs her head and forces her
to perform oral sex. It's really bad, like this is
a really child as bad as any of the tales
of the TSL here, but no one takes this seriously
because Cordero is a trans woman and her life and

(44:52):
night well transchild at the time of the abuse. But
she's nineteen when she anyway whatever, or older than that
when she makes it. Anyway, This is a trans woman
and that makes assholes consider her an unsympathetic victim. Another
thing that is used against her is that she's HIV positive. Right,
she had admitted that she'd been admitted to a psychiatric
hospital several times. She's has mental health issues in the past,
and she's admitted to illegal drug use in the past,

(45:14):
and all of this makes her a bad victim in
the eyes of shitty people. I want to emphasize she
is being judged here. Part of her credibility. Why she's
judged is not credible is that she's admitted to having
used drugs in the past. Epstein is perfectly happy to
use drugs. In fact, we have evidence of this. There's
a twenty thirteen email exchange between him and his fixer,

(45:37):
Leslie Groff where Groff is arranging for a friend of so.
Epstein has an apartment complex that he owns, right, and
he lets people stay there. Sometimes they're male friends of his.
They can crash there. Sometimes he lets people live there,
usually very young women live there for periods of time.
Right in twenty thirteen, one of these apartments, a woman
lives there and she asks Leslie Groff, Hey, my friend,

(45:59):
actor Will Forte is coming into town. Can he crash
with me for a few nights in this apartment Jeffrey
Epstein owns Now, I don't know the relationship between Jeffrey
and this woman. I don't know the age at which
she starts talking to Jeffrey. I think she's an adult
at this point from everything that I know. So there's
a lot that I don't understand here. But Epstein has
this apartment that he sends women to, and that he

(46:21):
sends men to, and that there's sub evidence he sends
men to to have sex with young women, maybe women
that he's giving a free apartment to. It's a little
bit unclear. That's not what this is, right, Will Forte
is not a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. When Epstein is
asked if he can stay at the apartment, Epstein does
not appear to know the guy right now. Would will
have been cool if he knew that he was staying

(46:42):
in an apartment Jeffrey Epstein owned. I don't know if he
would have been I don't know if he knew. Right
does this woman tell her friend Will Forte. By the way,
this apartment's owned by Jeffrey Epstein. You know this is
one of those because I'm bringing Will into it as
a result of something else. I want to make it
clear there's not evidence he did anything wrong, although maybe
it should be looked into a little bit right now

(47:03):
just to make sure, but there's not there's not evidence.
I want to make that really clear. Anyway. The reason
why this is relevant is because this woman asks, hey,
can Will Forte crash with me? And Leslie asks jeff hey,
is this okay? And Epstein responds yes, but make sure
there are no drugs or drink in the apartment, which
means that there's drugs there a lot of the time, right, right, right.
This isn't the only evidence that Jeffrey Epstein used drugs

(47:25):
or applied girls with drugs, right. It just makes it
very clear.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
I guess that's a point in in Will Forte's favor,
as he's hiding.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
That he has right that he had that Epstein wanted
to hide stuff from him, right, So again, there's not
evidence Will did anything wrong. But this is relevant because
when this case comes out and when she makes claims
against him, there are like websites put up right, like
social media sites claiming to be her social media sites

(47:57):
where she talks about illegal drug use, right the smear campaign.
Now she denies these are her social media accounts. And
we know Epstein hired people to fix his Wikipedia for him.
We know that he hired people to alter website, and
we know that he hired people to alter like Google
results so that it wouldn't be obvious that he was

(48:19):
a sex criminal. He had somebody removing the fact that
he was a convicted sex offender from his Wikipedia, he
had people altering Google results. Wouldn't have been weird for
him to have someone make a fake social media page
for this woman who has charged him, who is alleged
that he abused her, right, And I just really wanted
to emphasize how vile this is really Comprehensively, her case

(48:42):
is dismissed because it fell outside of the statute of limitations,
she waited more than five years, and the fact that
this all happens and that it like it's not not
only is this dismissed, which maybe they didn't have a
choice legally. I'm not enough of a law expert to
say if this is a good ruling or not. You know,
but statutes of limitation exist, U I mean good in

(49:05):
the is it illegally consistent ruling that they would have
applied to anybody. But what you do know here is
that the media treats this like a joke. These are
serious allegations that Jeffrey Epstein raped a child that come
out the year before he gets charged with molesting a
child and convicted, and it is not It is treated

(49:26):
like a joke forever up to the present day and
per an article in LGBTQ Nation, The New York Post's
October twenty third, two thousand and seven coverage included the
headline gender bend shocker, kinky sex suit gal is a
man Like, Yeah, this is a rape allegation by a
child or somebody was a child at the time. Right,

(49:47):
It's just it's it's file. It's just like so comprehensively evil. Anyway.
This is Epstein's first recorded interaction with a trans person,
but from this point forward, so there's obviously a period
at which he fetishizes trans people right, and that's deeply
tied in with his anti transactivism because that becomes an

(50:08):
increasing thing to him in the odds and one person
he expresses a lot of this too, is evolutionary biologist
Robert Trivers. Now. Trivers was famous for back in the
seventies creating what's called the theory of investment parenting. And
this theory suggests that parents invest in their kids to
ensure their own multi generational success. Thus, it's natural for

(50:28):
women to invest more in parenting because they invest in
or to create the child, and it's natural for men
to invest less in parenting because it's easy to come right.
That's what Nichols is saying, and that this is fine
and right and good. This theory has been discredited, but
as doctor Nichols noted in her article, it is still
widely cited. Travers started corresponding with Epstein in two thousand

(50:51):
and nine, again after Epstein's guilty plea per Nichols quote.
Epstein invited Trivers to his house in Florida to discuss
his work and paid Trivers's travel into comonations. Trivers, like
all researchers, needed money. Research is expensive salaries, materials, publishing fees,
and more. Over the years, Trivers frequented to Epstein's Florida home.
Triver's is unsure how we're when Epstein began funding his work,

(51:12):
but by twenty fifteen, Epstein bragged to Nom Chomsky that
he was Trivers's major funder. Concurrently, Triver's publicly justified Epstein's
pedophilia in no uncertain terms, and she chooses not to
reproduce that justification here. I think I will reproduce them
because it's important for knowing what a piece of shit
Trivers is. And in twenty fifteen Reuter's article, after a

(51:35):
lot more stuff about Epstein started coming out, several scientists
who had received donations from the Epstein Foundation were asked
why they kept taking his money and associating with him
after his conviction. Kraus said, I'd be a coward if
I abandoned Jeffrey over allegations I know nothing about. And
that's gross. But what Trivers says in this article is
so much worse. I can't believe he said this to Reuter's.

(51:57):
Did he get an easy deal? Did he buy himself
a light sentence? Well? Yes, probably compared to what you
or I would get but he did get locked up,
Trivor said. Triver says he also said he believes girls
mature earlier than in the past. By the time they're
fourteen or fifteen, they're like grown women were sixty years ago.
So I don't see these acts. Is so heinous?

Speaker 4 (52:15):
Yeah, is this guy just like walking around still?

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Probably?

Speaker 2 (52:20):
I hope he's dead, but I think he probably is.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Well, it's also just like like that like branch of
like bigot science is like you just like find the
trappings of evolutionary like psychology to like justify what you
already want to. You know, you can sort of backfill
anything if you want, ye, and you will get money.
It's rewarded to be a bigot. It's cool, like your

(52:45):
fucking racist pedophile whatever.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
So that next year, in twenty sixteen, Trivers thanked Epstein
for sending him extra money and making him an advisor
on The Guy. Oh Yeah good. He talked about his
medical research and added that he was moving forward on
theoretical work Epstein had asked him to pursue. We don't
know what that was specifically, but Epstein's response to this was,

(53:11):
I want to see you your piece on transgender in
the bio world. Right, So that suggests he wanted Travers
to write a piece about transgender people and actual and
like biology, Like this is like a bioessentialist thing, right,
That's what he wants doctor Travers to write, and that's
kind of his his priority, right, is getting this guy

(53:33):
to write about trans people rather than any of the
other research that he's doing. Doctor Nichols continues. Two months later,
Trivors contacted Epstein again and communicated that he is getting
to the end of transsexuality. Trivers goes on to pontificate
about the benefits of fucking trans women, using the humanizing
language to refer to transfilms like organism and the new morphs.

(53:53):
To that end, Trivers asks Epstein for more money to
finish his research on the proposed topics. So, but first off, Trivers,
if you read his actual emails, he is a fetishist.
He fetishizes trans people, and he also does not consider
them number one to be the gender that they are. Right,
he's a biological essentialist. But he also and I think

(54:16):
this is the same with Epstein. They're happy to fetishize
these people when these people have an identity and are
trying to get treated as human beings. That makes him
incredibly angry because they only exist for his sexual gratification.
I think that's a big thing for both Epstein and
Trivers here, and why they're both on the anti trans
stuff right is they're personally offended at the struggle for

(54:38):
like dignity and civil rights by trans people as a
community because to them, they're not a community, they're a fetish.
That's I think what's going on here. That's my interpretation
based on my reading. In October of that year, twenty sixteen,
Trivers held a talk in London titled and Evening on
Evolutionary Biology, an Overview covering feminism, transgender sexuality, and on

(55:01):
our Killings. He invited Epstein to the talk, and in
an email where he laid out the details of the event,
wrote wrote the title, so as far back as twenty sixteen,
Epstein is trying and giving his money to support the
creation of an internet wave of coverage critical to transidentity.
Because Epstein's response is that basically, I think this will

(55:23):
do a good job of getting in the news, like
great work on the conference. Hopefully people write about it,
you know, like he's really trying to get intellectuals to
put out critical stuff about trans people that he can
then get to go viral, and he talks about this
directly in his emails with Trivers. In twenty eighteen, Epstein
and Trivers again communicate about trans theories. Trivers uses more

(55:47):
really bad language. He calls trans people novel phenotypes, and
then he describes an experiment that he wants to do
to kind of test some of his theories, which and
this is how doctor Nichols describes it. He reiterates his
attraction to trans women and explicitly erasist trans men, all
while using his porn algorithms as evidence. Trivers ends the

(56:09):
email by claiming that trans three year old's are receiving
hormone treatments, a false anti trans scare monger. So again,
this mix of fetishization and scare mongering is really interesting.
I don't want to include too much of the texts
of these emails. They're gross enough that I don't really
want to read them in detail. But his Nichols notes,

(56:30):
Epstein funds his anti trans work over his other research,
which is often also racist. For example, Trivors wanted to
find an evolutionary reason for why basically black people do
on our killings and Middle Eastern like Arab people do
want our killings, when the reality is that like on,
our killings are everywhere. If a man gets angry that
his wife slept with someone else or doesn't respect him

(56:53):
enough and murders her, which happens all of the time
in the US, that right, there's an honor killer, my friend. Yeah,
he's angry because a woman made him in there any
murderer anyway. What's interesting, though, is that above all this stuff,
above even the racial stuff, Epstein wants Trigvor's writing anti
trans propaganda. Here's a March twenty nineteen email where Epstein

(57:14):
lays out directly that he considers the anti trans stuff
Trivers's main priority. I can call you today if you
like My recollection is that we sat together. I thought
that you might want to focus on transgender biology. People
would be interested, and I would fund. I am a
true believer in your talents.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah right, I mean you know to the extent that
Epstein had a talent. It was like this, like even
if it's not like people will be interested, it's that like, yeah,
the fucking like powerbrokers and information people down to like
the New York Times and like you know, quote unquote
liberals or whatever will also buy the shit hook line

(57:49):
and sinker right well, or at least by the debate,
perpetuate the debate.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
That's right, And it's the debate he wants to push
out there first, right, because it starts with the debate.
It starts with Okay, let's have him have this talk
and then see if we can get the guardian whoever
to report on the fact that this biologist is talking
about you know, this is what he said about trans people.
People are starting to question, you know, some of the
things that the community is putting out right. That's he's
very specific about, Like, I want this to go viral,

(58:15):
I want this to get news coverage, right, he expresses.
And when he says in that last email that people
will be interested about your anti trans research, he's expressing
confidence that he can brute force the public to care
about Trivers's research. Right. That's what he's talking about, is
forcing anti trans talking points into the public sphere. I
could go on about the other people that may have

(58:38):
had played a role in this. Epstein is very close
to the Sulzberger family who own The New York Times,
who publish a lot of anti trans bullshit. Epstein knew
them as far back as the seventies. In one email chain,
he jokes with Michael Wolfe about the fact that former
publisher Arthur Sulzberger had a sex scandal that could have
ruined him before he retired. Sulzberger's son now runs The

(58:59):
New York Times. And you know, obviously I'm not saying
that Epstein convinced the New York Times to run a
bunch of anti trans propaganda, but it's interesting that Epstein
is really pushing that and his friends with the people
behind the Times and The Atlantic.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
But that is also the thing. It's like he doesn't
have to that is sort of like the the both
the useful idiocy of places like the New York Times
of the Atlantic and like just that I guess class
of people, which is like he doesn't have to dictate
how you should do this. He knows that they are
primed to support these ideas or again, support the debate.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
In this class of people, which includes basically everyone who's
ever written a pop science book that's been successful, and
includes a number of actual scientists, most of the billionaires,
and a whole lot of like hereditary newspaper people, right
people who get jobs at the Times of the Atlantic
or The New Yorker because of who their dad or

(59:56):
mom was. Right, a lot of these all these people
are desperate money from rich assholes like Jeffrey Epstein and
are willing, like especially the writers and the academics, to
kind of say anything if there's money in it. They
they all of these fucking guys like the the fucking
Berry Weis's crew or whatever talk about how they're like

(01:00:18):
truth tellers, and this is the same as like the
honestly the New York Times editorial board talk about how
they care about the truth and good and get information
to people. They give a shit about money and having
rich friends and access right and they're so desperate for
it that the instant someone like Jeffrey Epstein starts saying,
you know what I found about trans people, they'll start
green lighting articles because that's what the public wants to hear.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
It's so it's shocking that the truth tellers just all
in their like vast search for truth just happen to
coalesce around the opinions of the right wing power structure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
That it's interesting also that like the most dangerous thing
to suggest isn't maybe all these assholes with all of
the money shouldn't have it. It's maybe these people with
no money at all are bad and dangerous.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Maybe the poorest and most depressed group of people that
I can think of pretty much here are yeah, secretly.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
In charge intellectual kings and Queen is good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah. Ultimately the result of Epstein's investment in Trivers didn't
reach fruition until two months before his death, and twenty
twenty Trivers published his Universal Theory of gender identity, which
argued that the ratio of one's digit lengths like fingers,
revealed how much testosterone they received as a fetus, and
thus predicted gender identity and then thus proved gender absolutism basically,

(01:01:39):
and he basically said that, like, by the way someone's
fingers look, I can tell you if they're transgender.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
This is wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
His work has been disproven, but it cited regularly, including
in a twenty twenty two paper from an anti trans
group called Sex Matters for doctor Nichols. The group cites
digit ratios and denying the autonomy of trans adolescents. And
this next bit that she writes is very important to
recap Epstein funds Triver's research and suggests specific topics of study.

(01:02:05):
Triver's becomes obsessed with trans women as sexual objects and
see the universal biological explanation of gender identity. He asks
for more money and publishes his findings. Ultimately, Triver's theory
is easily falsifiable. Despite this, hate groups pick up on
the pseudoscience and use it as a justification for their
regressive policies. That is, in a nutshell, the Jeffrey Epstein story.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
It is telling that like the best, most funded, absolutely
cutting edge of right wing thought is basically the same
as on the playground when they said if your hand
is bigger than your face, your ex you getta yeah
whatever follows like that is literally the best these people
can do. And there it is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Yeah. I uh, let's you know, Andrew, here's some ads.

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
I don't have a better pivot right now, there's no
pivot and we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
There's a lot that I feel bad about not including
in these episodes that I want to. We're not talking
about Howard Littnik, right, like the fucking cot Trump's Commerce secretary,
who is also the custodian of like the tether reserves
and thus very tied to fucking and tied to Jeffrey Epstein. Right,
we're not talking about a lot of stuff that is
really important because there's just too much to talk about

(01:03:24):
that we already have on these episodes. But I would
feel bad if I didn't end by coming back to
the bromance between Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon right now.
As I said earlier, both are in each other's orbit
for years before they got connected officially in twenty seventeen
by Michael wool Through. At least that was, you know,
the best estimate that I found previously, but there is

(01:03:46):
evidence that it goes back earlier. And on Sunday, December
eighteenth of twenty sixteen, Epstein emails Brock Pierce asking if
he'd had a chance to meet with Bannon. Right, Epstein's asking, Hey,
did you meet with Bannon yet? And Brock says yes,
and Epstein says, Bannon seems like the pretty smart puppet master.
Brock vouches for Bannon and says like, yeah, I've relied
on him for years. And it's after this point that

(01:04:06):
Steve and Jeffrey talking awful lot, So it may have
been that, you know, in twenty seventeen, they start talking
after you know, this conversation December of twenty sixteen, but
also the fact that Epstein's asking Brock if he'd had
a chance to meet with Bannon suggests that he's aware
of Bannon and is interested in what he's doing, and saying,
you know, maybe because they knew each other, or maybe

(01:04:27):
because they were kind of socially distant, but still someone
I don't exactly know, right, but it's telling that he's like,
Bannon seems like a pretty good puppet master. In twenty sixteen,
here's Politico's summary of their relationship. The two texted frequently
about everything from the TV show Chernoble and a guessing
game over who pinned the twenty eighteen anonymous New York

(01:04:49):
Times op ed to their efforts to influence international geopolitics,
including shaping Europe's governing coalitions, ramping up pressure on China,
and forging business ties in the Middle East. At one point,
took credit for convincing Trump in twenty eighteen to impose
massive tariffs on China, gabbed with Epstein about his we
Build the Wall endeavor that would later end in a
federal indictment and presidential pardon, and gossiped about the latest

(01:05:12):
developments in Special Councer Robert Mueller's investigation, in which Bannon
was a subject. They're talking about everything, especially their crimes.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
Don't forget that HBO limited run show.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
I mean it is like largely an exercise and guilt
by association, but it is like the most damning.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
I mean, it's not damn it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
It's just like the evidence. It's like the pattern continues
to build and it is like, you know, again, this
goes back to My biggest thing has been, like, the
fuck was Trump thinking with release the Epstein files? Really? Like,
what do you hope to accomplish?

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Hey, I don't think he had much choice. I don't
think he's at his full powers, you know. And unfortunately,
when you get your whole base obsessed with the idea
that he's explain everything, kind of have to.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
But why start, why start on this? You knew it
was in this shit man arrogance.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
You know, it was large. I think it was a
lot of other people, like fucking Trump used it. But
Trump wasn't the Trump left to his own devices, he
wouldn't have had the idea to hang Epstein on these
guys because he talks about Clinton now as a friend right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
So.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
In their private correspondence, Epstein and Bannon are very open
about their disdain for Donald Trump. Epstein calls him a grifter,
and Bannon repeatedly uses the term stable genius to mock
his former boss. The two got along because they both
had a vested interest in destroying the establishment as it existed.
Bannon gave Epstein advice on rehabilitating his image after his arrest,

(01:06:43):
even as Epstein himself acted as a free advice giver
to all the famous men impacted by me too. The
two men were very direct about their plans to subvert democracy.
In July of twenty eighteen, they talked about hiring hackers
or otherwise working to get them on our side. Epstein
included links to the website for hacking convention def con
as he pondered how they might influence these people. And
it's very clear for these emails neither of these guys

(01:07:05):
know much about hacking, although one reveal from the Epstein
files is that at least per Epstein's claims. In the files,
Epstein claims Peter Teel was funding Nazi hacker Weave for years,
which I do believe so Bannon asks, hey, do you
know any of these guys, and Epstein responds, some of

(01:07:26):
the founders, organizers. They are the most dangerous force in
today's society by far. Bioweapons pale due to blowback nuclear
a sixty year old technology. Whether sixty year old tech
frightens you. Space Frontier can't operate without software, so basically
saying like hackers are scarier than nukes or bioweapons, which
is also a dumb thing to say. Cool Bannon asks

(01:07:46):
if he thinks these kind of people can be bought,
and Epstein says yes, and he excitedly explains, you can
buy hacks, you can buy zero day exploits, right, you
see that in the email on here too. And he
says in other emails that he's wrestling with the task
of getting hackers who would work for Bannon and could
maybe find a zero data target crypto wallets or voting booths. Right, yeah, now,

(01:08:07):
there's no evidence they did this, certainly, and Epstein is
going to have other concerns very soon after these emails
get sent. This may have just been another example of himbloviating,
but it shows how he and Bannon are thinking, right,
and that's meaningful. At least there's more. At least they're dumb.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
And if people still say script kitty, I can't believe,
you know, script kitty.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Oh script. I don't think it's super relevant these days.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
Not anymore. That's Epstein, though I could buy buy an exploit,
sure man, Carly.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Ray Epstein, Yeah, good stuff, He's I don't know if
this is what I've got. There's an interview between him
and Bannon, but like Bannon was trying to make a
documentary on his friend. That's really telling that. I may
break down later for you guys, but I think this
is enough for now. I'm tired, begs Robert. I'm tapping

(01:09:03):
out personally. Yeah, from this, Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
But I think there's also like the trove is endless.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
Mm hmm. The trove is endless, endless content.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
We could do many more parts, and we might end
up having to.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
But you know, I'd like maybe Apstein really just sacrificed
himself for the global content minds, you know, be ensure
that there were plenty of podcasts and YouTube videos.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Think about it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
I'd love to be done.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
It hurts. Yeah, this was dayingful.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Okay, all right, I'm done. Goodbye?

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Are we done, done, done, done, yeah okay.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
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