Part Two: H.L. Hunt: The First Elon Musk

Robert explains how H.L. Hunt became the richest man alive through simple hard work and also gambling and pimping.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about
the worst people in all of history. And this week
we are about to start part two of our episodes
on the former richest man in the world, H. L. Hunt.
And when we left him off, his dad and his

(00:27):
beloved older brother had just died. He had been saved
by a magical prostitute after proving supernaturally good at sex.
And he's in Arkansas starting a farm, you know, using
the money he'd inherited and the money he'd taken from
fleecing all of his friends at poker. He is going
to try to make something of himself. So by the

(00:54):
start of nineteen twelve, our boy, Haroldson Lafayette Hunt, had
opened his very own cotton plantation. Again, this is probably
inspired by the fact that his father had kind of
talked endlessly about how beautiful the South was and how
great cotton farming was. Unfortunately, he's going to learn a lesson,
which is that cotton farming sucks ass, and it's really

(01:17):
hard to like get rich doing unless you own a
bunch of people who you can make work for you
for free.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Right, History talking about lesson very.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Clearly, they're like, yes, yes, when you have to like
do your own work and pay people to help you
sucks way harder, way harder. And he's going to learn
that over the next few years. Right. He's also going
to learn that the cotton market itself is incredibly volatile, right,
and so from year to year, your harvest might not
be worth what you put in to make it. And

(01:49):
also like bad weather can fuck you, you know, if you
don't have enough of a nest egg to survive it. Right,
It's just a very hard lifestyle. And this is where
the fact that he starts, he starts farming and immediately learns,
oh shit, it's really hard to make money cotton farming.
This is going to show evidence of one of his
most valuable traits, right, which is that he is not
dissuaded by failure. A couple of times in his life

(02:11):
he's gonna lose everything, like three different times he loses
everything and like makes it back, you know, to ultimately
get crazy rich. And if I were writing a linked
in post to appeal to a bunch of wannabe founders
and ceo boot liquors, itight in there, right, Hunt you know,
bankrupted himself three times and he you know, never let it.
Never never let it, you know, convince him to stop.
He never backed down. He just grut right back on

(02:33):
the horse and made the money up again. You know,
President right, right. It is true that like confidence in
the face of failure is important, you're certainly not going
to make it as an entrepreneur unless you can't. You
can handle some failure. But it's a separate characteristic of
Hunts that's going to contribute a lot more to his
future's success than the fact that he's fine with failure.

(02:55):
The thing that actually keeps him going through all these failures,
and particularly through the failure of his cotton business, is
that he also owns a casino. Right, that's all they
want to do with it. Then the attitude, I mean
casino is putting it a little far. It's not like
a full on Vegas casino. Obviously those don't exist yet.
But he owns a gambling din right. An article that

(03:17):
Anito Davis wrote for EBSCO notes that Hunt opens a
gambling parlor right alongside his cotton plantation. He starts them
both basically at the same time, and while the plantation
doesn't really work out financially, the gambling. Din is a
good investor, right.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
It's like, you know what slavery does, suck, Let's get.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Gambling gambling though nothing problematic about that. Baby put it
all on red. So one constant of Hunt's early life
is that when he suffers a reverse and like loses
all of his money, he's able to It's weird because
before I learned this, I would just be like okay,
but he lost all his money. How does he a
year later have like eight thousand dollars to invest in

(03:56):
this new business. Well, it's because he keeps gambling, and
whenever he runs out of money, he just gambles until
he makes more money because he's like it's a superpower
for him. Like he just as far as I can tell,
anytime the man sits down at a table, he walks
away with money, right, And if you have that, it's
like fucking Lieutenant Commander Data, right, Like he's just gonna
win when he sits down to play cards. So every

(04:20):
time he goes bankrupt, he gets his money back because
he's like a gambling freak. Right. In nineteen fourteen, he
marries Lyda Bunker, and the newlyweds get to work, having
the first of what will ultimately be six children. Their
first child is a girl, Margaret. They have her in
nineteen fifteen, and two years later they have their first boy,
who he names Haroldson Lafayette Hunt. Technically he's the third right.

(04:45):
Lida calls him Hassie. She also calls her husband Hassie.
So it's kind of confusing in the book at this
point because you'll hear the tow Sill will refer to
both of them as Hassie. I'm only going to call
his son Hassie. When I say Hassie, I'm talking about
our Harold Hunt, the future richest man, the world's kid.
Now he is going to cheat constantly on his wife.

(05:07):
He is cheating on Lida as early as nineteen seventeen,
probably earlier than that, but at least by that point,
and he is not subtle about it. So Lda has
to deal with hearing endlessly about like, oh, your husband
sure has an eye for the ladies, huh, which she
does not like, does not make her feel good. His

(05:29):
tell is like the way that she can tell he's
cheating on her is he'll point out a lady in
town to be like, you know, she's a really good
person and that means lighta is like, okay, so he's
sucking her or he's going to try to fuck her. Right,
sometimes it just means that he's at the house or
somebody right right right.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
It really shines through you know, what a.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Great personality she's got me just like casually bringing it
up to your wife and yeah, it's one of those
things where like she's never're okay with it. She kind of,
I think accepts it just because the world is the
way it is. She doesn't have any there's nothing she
can not much she can do about it, right, but
it makes her sad. And also his kids can tell

(06:11):
that he's cheating on their mom and they don't like it.
Like his first two kids especially are going to really
hate him for the fact that he is just he
makes their mother miserable. He treats her so badly. I
really I cannot exaggerate what a bad husband he is.
Hunt suffers ups and downs over the first three years
he spends farming, but World War done, World War one

(06:33):
finally does. His cotton plantation in the cotton market collapses
kind of not long after the outbreak of war, and
then in nineteen seventeen, his farm gets flooded out, and
just kind of the mix of these two factors together,
he can't keep it going anymore. He has to give
up somehow. He goes from this from his you know,

(06:54):
going bankrupt and his farm failing in nineteen seventeen to
investing in his first oil well in nineteen twenty one.
And there's a little bit of mystery as to how
he gets his first oil well. Here's how that pro
oil and gas industry website Oklahoma Minerals describes this part
of his career. So this is like the this is

(07:14):
like the this is the approved propaganda line that Hunt
wanted people to believe. With a borrowed fifty dollars, he
began trading oil leases, employing a strategy of buying and
selling that almost simultaneously to profit without significant capital investment.
This approach allowed him to amass considerable wealth in a
short period. Right, So basically he's just doing the kind

(07:34):
of trading people do on computers now, but with his
super smart brain, and he doesn't need much money. It's
just a borrowed fifty dollars, you know. He's able to
turn that gradually into enough of a fortune to start
buying his own oil fields. That's not quite accurate. That is, like,
it accurately describes one of his strategies, which is that
once he gets going, after he has this first successful

(07:54):
oil field, he'll start buying and selling leases. And he
is doing this thing where he's like doing it in
such a way that he doesn't have to actually put
much money down, right, because he's just kind of switching
shuffling assets around. It's a little bit of like a
show game type deal. But this does leave out something
important about how he got his first oil well, and

(08:15):
to describe that, I'm going to go back to his
FBI report. From the FBI quote, he was reportedly a
professional gambler who won an oil lease in a card
game and is alleged to have operated prostitution activities in Arkansas.
So this is something you'll find first off, it's not
just a gambling den. He's also a pimp, right. That's
especially I think that he gets more into that as

(08:38):
the farm fails. He's like, well, crime will make money
for me, And he uses the proceeds of both gambling
and prostitution in order to make the money that he
invests in oil fields. And it's very possible. We don't
know entirely. If it's that he literally won his first
oil field in a card game, that was a rumor
and it seems very possible. But if he didn't win

(09:00):
his first oil field in a card game, then he
bought it with the proceeds from crime right, And I
think it's probably true. He probably won his first oil
field in a card game and then invested in other
leases and got into the trading leases game with money
he made from crime right. I think it's probably a
mix of those. But this guy has to become a

(09:21):
criminal to get rich, right, That's not emphasized enough in
the hagiographies of him. But like he's he's a he's
a pimp, you know.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
So he's gonna do all of this and then end
up becoming like a.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Far right, super right, super right wing out the hypocrisy's
religious right guy. Initially, Yeah, he's it's very much a
hypocrisy thing. But like all these guys, Yeah, anyone whose
whole thing is like attacking and wanting to like harm people,
using the state for violations of a moral code is

(09:57):
always in violation of the moral code. They are trying
to push on other people. One way, or the other.
When you dig enough, you find it out right, that's
just as far as I am convinced a pretty universal
truth with these these kinds of assholes. I found an
article from the Nation from nineteen sixty four. The author
of that article claims the explanation that he gambled to

(10:20):
get his first oil field got into print for the
first time in nineteen fifty in a British newspaper, but
it has been repeated many times since. Hunt denies it all,
And I don't know what the truth is here. Whatever
the truth, Hunt is going to continue operating gambling establishments
for the next couple decades. He makes a fortune on
the Arkansas oil boom and is said to have been
worth six hundred thousand dollars by the time he's twenty five,

(10:43):
which you know, by the standards, like if you turn
that into modern money, he's a multimillionaire pretty much by
the time he's in his mid twenties. Now, he's going
to lose all of that money not long after this
bill make even more back. Right, He's not what you'd
call a good father at any point in time, especially
in this period.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
I can imagine all that cheating.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, all the cheating. He gambles constantly instead of he
doesn't like spend time raising his kids. Like when he
has free time when he's not working on the farm,
he's gambling, right. And then when he eventually he's gambling
or he's speculating on leases oil field leases. Right, but
he never he never just has downtime with the kids.
He's always gambling. Right. During the early years before he

(11:25):
leaves Arkansas to pursue oil fields in Louisiana and then Texas,
his kids tell regular stories of him just being gone
all the time and like mom need to find someone
to watch them when she had to do something because
he's playing poker, right, And she hates him gambling. She
thinks that him gambling is the root of all of
their problems. Now, to be fair, she's not right, Like
she blames him gambling on them going bankrupt like two

(11:48):
or three times, and he goes bankrupt because of the
legitimate businesses, like first because of his farm, and then
I think like a couple of times as he's not
quite bankrupt, but he loses a lot of money on
like oilp gambling is a really reliable way for them
to make money or at least, I should say. The
card gambling is not what is bad for their finances.

(12:10):
His gambling on oil speculation fucks them over a couple
of times, right.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
But his ego is fed by the gambling. And that's
the thing too, It's like that makes them reinforce it.
He's the most special and what makes it feel like, Yeah,
I can go out and sleep with whoever I want
to do whatever because I.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Can just exactly.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
The rule.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah pockets. Yeah, So he takes all of his money.
There's a couple of occasions where he'll just like take
all of the money and like leave his wife with
the kids nearly destitute for like a year, and just
go down to another state to speculate on oil fields.
So she does like, the kids don't like. This is
a scary time for the kids. They don't know if
he's ever coming back, and neither does she, right, and

(12:49):
he doesn't like I don't think he makes it clear
that he's coming back. I think he's like, I'm gonna
go see what I if I can make a fortune.
And he's kind of like, and if I die out
there or whatever and leave you guys destitute, well that's
how it goes.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
You know, I've been doing this since I was twelve
years old. Guys, don't worry about.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Right, And like the time, by the time, he's worth
six hundred grand at twenty five, he could have like
retired and put all of that into you know, a
couple of safe investments or just you know, like fucking
bonds or whatever, and lived and supported his family comfortably
for the rest of their lives and like been a father.
He chooses to then gamble all of that money again

(13:26):
and leave his family. He does not need to. He
has a point where he's like, you could choose to
be a father and raise your kids and you would
all be wealthy for the rest of your lives. And
he takes all of that money and puts it all
on black and loses it and is gone for like
another year or so to make it back, right, Right,
So this is not good for his.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Family, and I'm sure he in the back of his money,
he's like, listen, I'm not bothering you guys. I'm not
harassing you about how much breast milk you guys are getting.
So why should he be upset?

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I'm giving you nobody wants their dad around. It
sucks da and yeah, like his wife blames all of
this again on like the poker, but he is she
is right that like his gambling is what's destroying the family.
It's just his gambling on oil wells is what's destroying

(14:19):
the family. Because he again, they go bankrupt a second
time in the twenties because of all this for the
book Kingdom, he gave no thought in the world to
security for his family. Right, that is accurate, And that's
also how his wife and his first couple of kids
see him. Right, is he does not give a fuck
about us. He is willing to gamble all like our

(14:40):
happiness and our survival entirely because it thrills him. When
his oldest son hassee turns eight, it's become a parent
that he has inherited his father's intellect. Hassie is incredibly bright. Unfortunately,
he's also the one who's most hurt by his father's
complete neglect to scene rights. Hassie felt personal rejected by

(15:00):
this strange man who entered his life only now and
then without warning. This man had named him after himself,
had given him his looks and quick intelligence, then apparently
decided his son was not quite up to snuff right,
So that's very much how Hassee sees what his dad
is doing is like he named me after himself. He
clearly wanted me to be his heir, and then I

(15:22):
must have failed him because he wants nothing to do
with me.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Ah, that's so sad. It's like he's he's just repeating
the exact same cycles of harm and like I'd like
psychologically it's interesting, but just as like a human being,
like you're a dick. Stop being a dick.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, don't stop. Don't do that to your kids again.
If you I kind of think if you wind up
getting lucky enough that you have like a windfall that
allows you to never work again and support your kids forever,
you kind of have a responsibility to like be a
really involved parent at that point and maybe stop gambling incessantly.
You know, you could start a business and like you know,
or you have some small investments, but that's the point

(16:01):
at which you should make your family a priority.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Again.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
You've succeeded, you know, you don't need to keep doing this.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
You have to choose a struggle like either be broken
present or be rich and nice, Like you can't be
both mean and then not present and then always messing.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
With Buddy, like a big struggle. In nineteen twenty five,
he abandons his family yet again to speculate on oil
fields in Florida while he's down and want to I
want to specify it. That's Florida, the state, not flow Rda,
the musical sensation. Always there's confusion every week I talk
about those.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
It's important to get these things right.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
A lot of people know flow Rida but don't know
that there's a state that's named after him. I just
want to make that clear. So while he's down in Florida,
he meets a waitress, Franni a Tie, who helps him
find a plot of land to gamble on near Tampa.
It's like he thinks there might be oil, and I
think it winds up being there, winds up being oil there.
But he spends months down in Tampa, you know, searching

(16:58):
for more deals, working on that deal, and hanging out
a lot with Frannia Tie. With this waitress, right, she's
a wanna be musician. She's like a singer, And so
he gets really into writing musicals. He convinces himself that
like he's a great writer, and in fact that like, oh,
all these other writers all these professional writers are idiots, Like,

(17:20):
I bet because I'm so smart, I could be the
best playwright ever if I just devoted some time to it.
So he like becomes convinced he's going to be like
the biggest thing on Broadway. He like goes to a
show on Broadway once around this period of time, and
he's like, I'm going to make the best musical that's
ever been made.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
Has he ever been to New York Like he's.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Been once, Yeah, he's been once. He saw he sees
a show on Broadway. That's what convinces him he's going
to be the greatest musician or the greatest playwright of
all time. And so for a while he gets really
into that, and he like writes a bunch of songs
that sounded terrible, and they're primarily songs for Frannia, right,
because he's in love with her at this point. He

(18:00):
marries her on Armises Day nineteen twenty five. Now, but
you may note he never divorced his first wife, nor
did he break up with her, nor did he tell
her that he was done. Frannia, by the way, does
not know she's that he's cheating. She has no idea
he has another wife. He does not tell her he
has a wife and multiple children. He's lying to her too,

(18:22):
She's not does not bear any responsibility here. She thinks
she's met a guy and fall in love with him,
and he marries her and they start having kids together.
He buys her a house, and he just starts raising
a second secret family in Florida will ultimately have four
children Jamaican.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
I can say that. I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
A lot of people do that.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
I know, but it's just like one one neglective family.
One neglected family's not enough. Let's you have two two.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I can't really double down on my family neglect. Look,
two neglected families makes a non neglected family. That's the
way it works, right, If you neglect enough families, it
loops around to you being a caring father.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Oh, just like a numbers game. It's like his gambling.
Someone's gonna have to like me.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Right right, I'm going to eventually find a family I
actually want to be there for. You know, Statistically, he's
like gambling, Just keep getting, keep getting new cards, keep dealing.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Wait, So, just to clarify, how many children does he
have with the first wife.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Ultimately he's going to have like fifteen, he has six
I think with his first wife and four with Franny.
I Ultimately, over the course of his life he has
like fifteen kids.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's too many.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Ew And again this is bigamy. He's bigamously married. Now
this is a crime. You're not allowed to do this
in nineteen thirty because he also lied to the government
right about not being previously married. In nineteen thirty, he
takes his money and he moves to East Texas, where
he meets a fellow named see him Joiner. So now
he has abandoned both of his families. He meets a

(19:57):
man named see him Joiner. He's another oil speculator. Not sorry,
not a speculator. Joiner is one of these guys I
forget the term for it, but he's like he's like
a prospector for oil wells. Right. So Joiner identifies some
land that's like, I think there's oil on this land.
This is like I think a lot of it, right,
And this well's name is number one, Daisy Bradford. Joiner

(20:20):
is like a legend in the oil well prospecting business.
This is a big deal. Guys like this who are
like really skilled withoth the geology and stuff to like
find well. Yeah to like because this is the whole
oil boom relies on guys like this going out and
because they don't have a lot of the technology we
have today, so they're kind of looking at like the
geology and whatnot, and like, where do I think there's

(20:40):
going to be oil? Because it costs a lot of
money to like drill to prove that there's oil and
a property right, So the guys who are best at
identifying places that they think are worth drilling and have
the highest success rate are worth a lot of money.
And Joiner is one of the best of these guys,
and he picks out this space that becomes the oil

(21:00):
well Number one Daisy Bradford. Hunt buys the rights to
this oil well. Because that's how guys like Joiner make it.
They're not running the wells themselves. They like they find,
they speculate, they find it, and then they like buy
a bunch of acreage that they think is a good
place for an oil well, and then try to find
someone else to buy it and actually like prove their
like make the well right. That's kind of how the

(21:21):
business works. I'm YadA YadA ing a lot, but Hunt
buys the rights to this well, and he leases four
thousand surrounding acres from ce him Joiner, So he doesn't
own this land, he's like leasing it and basically buying
the rights to exploit the well. So he and Joyer
are in business together. Initially, this proves to be a
really wise move because number one Daisy Bradford becomes the

(21:43):
largest producing oil field on planet Earth for years. This
is the number one oil field on the planet. Right,
that is going to make a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Now he's going to be so annoying, he's going to
be so.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
He's kind of getting This is going to really allow
him to be a lot more of a piece of shit.
And we'll talk about that. But you know who else
is a piece of shit?

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I love our sponsors here. They are killing me and
we're back Sophie. Sophie didn't notice that. So it's fine.
We're good. We're good, We're happy. Everything's fine.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
I am unhappy.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Fine, Sophie's happy. She just says that when she's happy.
She loves saying I'm unhappy to mean I'm happy.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
She's just so beautiful you can't tell, but she's unhappy.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Classic Sophie. So that piece from the Nation that I've
been quoting from outline some of the weirdness around this
oil deal for what's going to become the biggest oil
field in the world. Number one Daisy Bradford quote. As
a matter of mysterious fact, he Hunt wound up with
most of the land Joiners started with. Nobody has ever

(22:53):
figured out how he did it. Hunt says it was simple.
He paid one million dollars but joined or died with
little money and the almost uncut countable riches Hunt is
taken from Joyner's old land has turned some Texas oilmen
sour on him. So basically, people are pretty sure Hunt
did something to screw Joiner out of a lot of
money and like kind of ruin him. But we don't

(23:14):
know that that happened. Joyner might have just squandered it. Right,
some of those oilmen might have had sour grapes. That said,
I think there's a pretty good chance Hunt fucks this
guy like he does not have being great with his
business partners. Yeah, exactly, he fucks everything else.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
That said, all these other oil guys probably do have
sour grapes because Hunt is not just a good oil man.
He is the best oil man of like the first
big oil boom, he is the best at this by
a huge margin. He starts making money handover fist not
long after this point, and this is the end of
his boom and bust cycles. He will never be poor again.
He will never be out of money again. This well

(23:54):
makes so much money that he's able to buy up
more oil wells. He eventually owns hundreds of oil wells,
more than five I forget the exact number, but he
owns so many fucking oil wells and somebody that he
accumulates an almost impossible seeming percentage of the US oil market.
He lives in Tyler, Texas during this period where he

(24:14):
was noted by others. Is he's like, This is when
he's starting to really get rich as a he's a loaner, right.
He doesn't like to the oil well guys, the guys
who are like working on these wildcat rigs and stuff
like socialized, like to party, like to go out and drink.
He doesn't socialize with any of his colleagues or any
of his subordinates. He doesn't like to know them. He

(24:34):
likes to work. He spends his free time doing extra
work in his office indoors, not outside. He prefers making
deals to doing any labor on any of the claims
that he owns. The son of one of his business
partners at the time recalled mister Hunt never forgot anything
map statistics, least data, He's never forgot. So he's got this.

(24:55):
He's got this like edetic memory, I think is the
term for it, right where he just he just doesn't
forget things. Hunt has had to abandon his family at
least twice to get to this point, but by now
he has finally made it, and as the nineteen thirties
turned into the nineteen forties, he is making money hand
over fist. Now the case made in that article in

(25:16):
the Nation, which is the best explanation I've seen anyone
give as for why Hunt succeeds so far. Hard goes
like this. He never stops gambling, and that's what works
for him. Ultimately, his whole driving intellectual justification for his
business practices is the law of averages. He thinks about
being an oil speculator the same way he thought about

(25:37):
playing poker. As Hunt himself said, quote, an element of
luck is important when you first get started in the business.
If you don't get a well fast. You can't accumulate
the capital to start operating on a large enough scale.
But after you start rolling, what you mainly need is
a thorough knowledge of the laws of chance. A wildcatter
can expect to bring in one well for every thirty tries,

(25:58):
and only one man in thirty will do that. If
you don't have faith in the law of averages, you'll
probably get discouraged and quit. In my wildcatting days, I've
drilled one hundred dry wells, one after the other. Then,
when prospects look most pessimistic, the law of averages would
go to work for me, just as I figured it would.
Now that article goes on a note after Hunt's quote.
The boldness of that statement can be understood only when

(26:20):
one realizes that a quarter of a million dollars is
not an unusual cost for wildcatting a single well. So
when he says he'd have one hundred dry wells in
a row, each of those dry wells is costing like
a quarter of a million bucks. That's just wasted. Crazy
like that. He is gambling. That's why he loves this
is this is gambling.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Gambling.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
We're not we're not putting fucking four grand ass down
on a night of poker. We're putting a quarter of
a million dollars on one roll of the fucking dice.
This is his king and he's doing that hundreds of times. Yes, yes, absolutely,
mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
It's so bizarre. I also just I guess I'm just
so I can't imagine growing up, you know, poor, having
that be your origin story, being so casual with risking everything,
like I just I would just want to be so
comfortable with my two wives, Like I.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Think that's part of the key is he doesn't grow
up poor. He is one of eight kids inherits five grand,
which is a shitload of money at that point in time, right,
that's a that's a comfortable inheritance. His dad is a
five hundred acre farm. They are not poor because.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
But he wants to have that message from sulf.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Right right, Like I am in that kind of boat
where like I didn't grow up we certainly weren't dirt poor,
we were never missing meals, but like my earliest memories
are all of financial anxiety because like my mom tried
to start a business and then another and they both
failed and we went fucking broke. You know, our aunt
and uncle who were like business partners, went bankrupt. Like
it was my dad had to leave for like almost
two years to work in New York because it was

(27:48):
the only place he could get a job and that
wasn't our house. And once I started making money, I
don't gamble like, I don't gamble, and I don't like
invest in crazy shit like I'm really conservative with like
in my investments and like finances like saving for retirement.
I am very risk averse because I don't want to
be scared about money again because I spend a lot

(28:10):
of my life scared about money. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
I used to even make fun of my mom's because
she would do like the lotto tickets every day, and
I'm like, mom, Mom, why you're doing it? Just save
for money, give me it, give me the money, I'll
save it.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah I yeah. So again, I think that he's like
this in part because he doesn't grow poor, right, so
he also has a superpower, so he knows he can
always make more money gambling, which I think really helps too.
That said, you know, obviously this doesn't work smoothly or perfectly.
Hunt has his ups and downs, but the ups out
number the downs to such an extent that by the

(28:44):
time the US enters World War two. This is the
craziest fact. You want to know, how rich this guy is,
how big a deal he is in the oil and
gas industry at the start of World World War two,
At the start when the US enters World War two,
hl Hunt personally owns more oil reserves than all of
the Axis powers put together. Jesus, Like, if you just

(29:07):
want to, if you want to, like little hint about
by the time the US enters how fucked the axises
from the start of that portion of World War two,
one guy in the US has more oil than all
of the Axis powers have access to. One guy. They
were once that like they could never have won. What's
the US got involved? Like when you let the US

(29:28):
and Russia so like all of the money and resources
and all of the people, like you're like, these people
were so fucking fucked. Hl Hunt has more oil than
all of your asses.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Just drop him on the floor, just like we we
have a we have a hunt.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
It's we've got our fucking hunt. Yeah. Now that all showed,
by the way, should answer the question. I shouldn't have
to explain at this point, how did this guy become
the richest man in the world. When World War two started,
he owned all of the oil. How do you think
that for him? Yeah, that's my business. Hack advice is

(30:05):
own all of the oil on earth when a world
war starts.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Write that down everyone.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Like that'll well when that world war starts. Might not
help you the same way if a third one kicks off, folks.
So I would be remiss if I didn't point out, though,
that owning the most productive oil wells on Earth during
World War Two was not Hunt's only business. In the
early to mid nineteen forties. His FBI file notes that
as of nineteen forty three, he was alleged to be

(30:32):
the operator of a private horse race and gambling bookie
establishment near his office in Dallas. So he continues running
a casino, But at this point it's just for fun, right,
it's love of the game. He has his money like
vibes like he absolutely and he'll get in trouble a
couple of times. There'll be some like investigations because he
stays involved in a lot of illegal gambling stuff as

(30:54):
an adult. He'll nearly get in trouble a couple of times,
but it's just for it's just for shits and giggles
at this stage. Now, obviously up to this point, this
is like a dude who I don't think is very pleasant,
but there's not enough to make him a bastard. You know,
at this stage in the oil and gas industry, he
doesn't know about climate change. That's certainly not like the

(31:15):
widespread scientific consensus. So he can't really get him on that.
He hasn't done anything. He's a shitty dad, and he's
bigamously married, and those are bad things, but on its own.
I don't do it behind the bastards just because a
guy's got a shitty personal life. So now we're going
to talk about this stuff that makes him earn his
way onto the podcast.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
I'm nervous because it's World War two time.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
I know, nervous.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
You know, he's you get the he's a he's firmly
right wing by the time World War two starts. I
haven't seen any allegations of pro Nazi sentiment, but he's
anti intervention at the start of the war and opposes
US entry into the war right, which suggests to me
maybe some mid sympathy there. Yeah, that said, once the

(32:03):
war starts, he realizes that because of the way oil
depletion allowances work in tax laws. And I'm not gonna
explain this in detail because I don't know much about taxes,
but it's this thing that, because of the way it works,
you can kind of not pay taxes at all if
you're an oil man in a specific way. Right. Per
his biographer, Hunt began to realize that maybe he had

(32:26):
been a trifle hasty and opposing American intervention. So basically
he's like, wait, a secon, I can sell all of
the oil to the Allied Powers and I don't have
to pay taxes on it. No. World War two sounds great.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
I canna make this sark.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, make as many Shermans as you guys want one
of those things to get half a mile to the gallon. Awesome. Yeah,
keep rolling those fuckers off the line. So his big
fear though, during this period of time, is that his son, Hassey,
now twenty two years old, might get drafted.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
He doesn't want his boy, his namesake, to go to
war and die. So he works out a deal with
the US government because you know, Hassei's got to serve
you know, their draft and everyone they can. So his
son gets joins the army and gets commissioned immediately as
a second lieutenant, right, which is not like I mean
that some people do join in our commission immediately, the

(33:15):
second lieutenants and stuff. That's how you start if you're
like an officer. But his son specifically gets commissioned because
of who his dad is and the job a very
nepo baby thing, and he doesn't want to be a
Nepo baby. By this point in time, Hasse has already
established himself independently as a successful oil man, like a
separate from his dad, and he hates his dad, and

(33:37):
he really does not want to be associated with his father,
and his dad forces him by working with the government,
forces him into the situation that now he's made to
join the army and he's made to take a job
with the army where he's working in DC and he's
basically advising the leader of China's nationalist faction during their
civil war. So he's like working with Chang Kai Shek's

(33:59):
guys specifically, I think on like oil, a lot of
oil related stuff. And he's doing this because his dad
makes this job for him. He doesn't want this job,
and he's really unhappy to be forced to once again
live in his dad's shadow. This like fucks him up
a lot. In the book Kingdom to sell rights about

(34:19):
how Hasse has the op This is the like, if
he'd wanted to, this would have been a great opportunity,
if he enjoyed being an EPO baby, to spend the
war partying and hitting on all the hot ladies who
are lonely because the men are gone. That's how to
sell rights. And then he adds this just yet another
fascinating passage from his biography. The variety of females was

(34:40):
enhanced by the Chinese Nationalist government, which staffed its embassy
heavily with new bile young beauties from the Asian mainland.
Willing young females have always been one of the Earth's
most readily accepted forms of currency, and currency was required
to purchase power and influence. Gee, the gross gross Like, yeah,
you're not wrong. I'm sure the Chinese Nationalist government did

(35:03):
staff their embassy with hotties because they know that that
allows them to like you can use hot girls to
help you spy on people, and you can use them
to gain black male stuff. But like, that's a gross
way to write that. Also, the variety of females. Yes,
he always uses females.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Female.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
It's weird. It's weird to sell. It's weird. So but
you know, I don't doubt also that like that is
basically what's going on, right. Hasse is very unhappy, uh,
in this situation. He had been starting again, he'd been
living independently, he was like starting to succeed on his own,
and then his dad uses the US government to trap

(35:44):
him and force him to take the job his dad
wants him to have, like it's the most controlling thing
that you could possibly do as a father. And this
is very in line with how he is as a dad.
He's never there and he never provides any emotional support.
But he also has a very idea of what he
wants his namesake to do for a living, and he
will like berate him and scream at him anytime he

(36:05):
does anything different or anytime he falls short. And now
he's like, oh, you want to live independently into your
own thing, No, fuck you, You're taking this job that
I've made the government give you, and you're gonna do it.
And Hasse is deeply uncomfortable, and he has what sounds
like a psychotic break one night after a party at
the Chinese Embassy and flies into a violent rage, destroying

(36:28):
all of the furniture in the room and like fighting people,
And when hotel staff approach him, he starts screaming, I've
been betrayed, betrayed by the Rockefellers, betrayed by my father's enemies.
They're all out to get me. So maybe it's kind
of hard. I don't know what's going on with him.
It may have been like paranoid schizophrenia, because he's like
never going to get better. He's mentally ill. The rest

(36:51):
of his bad broke him, He broke his boy. Yeah, yeah,
I do.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Love that the Rockefellers come up that way all the time,
betrayed by the rock.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
That's what I was laughing at a scene.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Of every crime. But in this case they are literally
in play.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
But I love it. I do love how it's like
they have like that his son ends up doing like
a rival oil company, the same way like his brother
and his dad had the rival banks. It's just like
fathers and sons.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, great succession exactly.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
It's so Murdoch coded the way that he very much. Yeah,
I'm just gonna absorb you into the coalition. Whether you
want to be independent or not. It's so Murdoch.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Oh, you don't have any choice in this. Yeah, So
he winds up, hass He winds up in a military hospital,
and when his dad comes for a visit hasse he
like charges him and tries to beat him up.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Like.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
He basically rushes his dad. As soon as his dad
like walks into the room and tries to assault him,
he has to be restrained by guards. Hl Hunt tells
his wife after this, the boy is too high spirited,
too sensitive. He's always been too sensitive and reckless. Why
there's nothing wrong with the jeans in that boy. He
comes from the finest doc. Problem is is to say

(38:03):
his jeans are good for me. It's got to be that.
You know, he made his personality, he made choices to
be too sensitive. You know, that's what's wrong with him.
And when he says this, his daughter, Margaret, his oldest child,
who's there, turns to him and replies, you destroyed hassee
nobody but you. You've gotten away with a kind of murder,
and it's time you faced up to.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
That eldest daughter. That right there, that's gods. Oh yeah,
living to the Margaret name. We love it.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, living up to that Margaret name. And you know
who else is named Margaret? Not the sponsors of our podcast? Maybe,
but we don't know. They could be.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
What if it's a promo for cool cool stuff?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Again, they could be? Could be not impossible, No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Here's it's possible. Be cool mm hm.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Hm, and we're back south. Speaking of being a great
parent and husband. Back in nineteen thirty four, Frannia, his
second wife, had figured out that he had another secret family. Right.
I don't know exactly how, but she finds out that
they've got another secret family and they drift apart after that.
She's not happy about this. Per the Texas State Historical Association,

(39:19):
Hunt apparently shipped her off to New York and in
nineteen forty one provided trusts for each of the four children.
A friend of his, John Lee, married her and gave
his name to the children for an idea. He's so
rich now. When his second family gets pissed and leaves
an order like hide what he's done, he gets he basically,
I'm sure, pays his friend to marry the family and

(39:41):
pretend to be the father of those kids.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
That's so weird.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Crazy stuff wild. Some people have wild much.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Money, Like this is like, yeah, you can just be
a dad. You could just.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Everyone who's ever been the richest man in the world
has had too much money. We could start there. Yeah period, yeah, yeah,
gross shit. In nineteen forty six, right after the war ended,
a coal strike hits the East Coast. So there's this
strike for the same reason people always strike, and it's
causing this like energy shortage, and Hunt breaks the strike

(40:16):
by supplying huge amounts of natural gas to the Southwest. Basically,
you guys don't need coal from these coal miners. I've
got all of this Union free natural gas. And he
winds up supplying eighty five percent of the fuel needs
of the East Coast. Again, he's not surprising that in
nineteen forty eight, I Think Life magazine names him the
richest man on Earth. He has an estimated net worth

(40:39):
of two hundred and sixty three million dollars, which would
be the equivalent of like three and a half billion
dollars today. But he can't rest or sit on his laurels.
The United States was only able to win World War
Two by partnering with the Communists, and he came to
believe that a vast conspiracy was at work to destroy
the United States from the n side, and hl Hunt

(41:02):
knows a communist uprising would be very bad for hl Hunt, right,
He really does not want to want to see any
of that go down. His businesses he doesn't think will
do well.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
He's like, these are my money, this is my money.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, yeah, Oh, they're not gonna like me. By the
start of the nineteen fifties, Hunt had figured out his
own path out of the dangers of socialism. He begins
on envisioning and sketching out the dimensions of his ideal
utopian state, which is this kind of like dream libertarian
capitalist republic where votes are assigned in elections based on
how much you pay in taxes. That's the primary thing

(41:37):
that determines how many votes you get. Yeah, we'll talk
more about that later. Some might call an idea like
this fascism adjacent, but Hunt doesn't care. His life has
taught him that reality would mold to fit whatever he wants,
so he decides to brute force his dream utopia into being.
He's going to like make America become this country is
very much like a proto Peter Teel type. He has

(41:59):
this dream after he gets rich of how to reorganize
society so that he doesn't have to listen to anyone else,
and he then begins putting his money into supporting a
variety of causes and making media that will convince all
of the dummies who with everyone else in the United
States that what he wants is best for everybody. He
becomes a vocal supporter of Senator Joseph McCarthy, who he

(42:22):
saw as a patriot protecting the nation from a vast
cabal of secret Communist agents who had infiltrated every level
of society. Hunt decides to fight back against this, you know,
left wing infiltration of all of our cultural and social
governmental organs by funding one of the first explicitly right
wing media organizations in the country, The Facts Forum, founded

(42:46):
in nineteen fifty one, was immediately the best funded propaganda
outlet in the United States. On paper, the Facts Forum
was nonpartisan and educational. It has to be nonpartisan, it
has to be.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
The country, right, We just care about baby, just.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Fact and education. Because if you're if you're nonpartisan, if
you're balanced and educational, then your content, your your radio
and television is tax exempt. Right You don't have to
pay taxes on. Basically, you get a tax right off
for whatever you put into the media, which will allow
Hunt to not pay taxes. Right. That's the big benefit

(43:25):
of this is that it doesn't actually cost him money.
The money that he spends on this is basically what
he does instead of paying taxes because of how the
tax system works. So his choice is basically either pay
taxes and fund like society or put it all into
right wing propaganda. And he's like, well, I would much
rather put it all on the right wing propaganda on red. Yeah. Yeah.

(43:48):
In one early letter, Hunt describes the vision behind the
Facts Forum as a kind of projection of the old
New England town hall meeting idea we have no ax
to grind and no funds to raise. Now that last
bit was tactically true. He was the richest man in
the world. He does not beg for donations, right, But
he does beg his listeners to organize in person, advising

(44:09):
them to set up discussion groups from seven to forty
two members and like read books together and talk about
the ideas that he's putting out through the show. And
in doing this and suggesting this, he's cripping off of
what he understood is the playbook the Bolsheviks had used
to take power. If you listen to that, there's always
like reading groups, like socialist reading groups all throughout the

(44:30):
Russian the like Czarist Russia that wind up being the
core of all, not just the Bolsheviks, all of these
different like left wing revolutionary groups right the start. A
lot of them start as book clubs. And he's very
much and a lot of anti communists in this era
post World War two, like that's the John Burt Society too,
is like, what if we take the tactics these leftists

(44:50):
are using, but we turn it towards basically pro fascist bullshit?

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Right, what do we give them the books that we
like and we yeah, never read our.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Book, and right, maybe we can make people be like,
you know, violent militant revolutionaries in favor of us not
paying taxes. Yeah. So the Facts Forum has a membership
list and a newsletter which was free to be outright
partisan in a way that the radio show could not
that for whatever reason, the newspapers and stuff that he
puts out don't have to abide by any of these rules.

(45:22):
Every three weeks, members were polled on current affairs and
the results. This is really interesting to me that he
figures this out. Is he has his membership answer polls
that he writes, and then he sends the results to
newspapers as if they're real polls that are evidence of
like how Americans feel about issues, and a lot of
newspapers publish this as if it's the news, as if

(45:45):
these polls are like represent how Americans feel about things,
as opposed to what Hunt's really doing. Because he's coming
up with the polls and it's his set group of
people who are answering them. This is a way of
laundering his talking points and what he leaves about politics
into the mainstream media and disguise that as no, no,
this is just how the masses feel, right, this is

(46:05):
how the average American feels. This isn't just h l
Hunt's opinion.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Obviously, right, And then he can also present himself as
like I'm not getting anything out of this. I'm just
trying to inform people about how everything is going on.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
He's just helping what Americans think, right, And this is
a major propaganda thing today. A lot of people do
this now. Hunt is very much like a trailblazer in this.
He made His thinking on how this worked very clear
in a pamphlet published by the Facts Forum. What you
believe in, say, is public opinion. Public opinion is a constant,
im mutable force which can be altered or changed only

(46:38):
by itself. I don't like him when you're literally writing
public opinion. Yeah. Interesting, So from the jump, the only
opinion Hunts interested in was his own. He is not
organizing with other conservatives because he's special.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Right, He's got the bestus ever, He's got all that
absolute milk.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Than you've got. But this is interesting. He's not like
you know a lot of like these modern conservative groups
are funded by multiple people, and you have like groups
coming together to fund these organizations that have their own
thinkers in them too, who have like their own and
they're all pushing an agenda. But it's like an agenda
that's a mix of multiple people like working together. Hunt's

(47:24):
propaganda is just Hunt. He does not talk to anyone else.
He doesn't organize with anyone else because he doesn't need to.
He hates people. Right, He is not interested in the
Facts Forum being a place where other conservatives can express
their opinions. Right, it exists, so hl Hunt can convince
Americans to adopt his politics because his belief, it's almost

(47:45):
a religious belief to him, is that he's so right
about everything that if everyone just hears what he believes,
everyone will adopt his political beliefs immediately. Obviously, the narcissism
now the only issue for Hunt, and the reason this
is a problem when he's starts creating radio and TV
propaganda is that he's terrified of public speaking. He hates

(48:05):
talking to people. He doesn't he has no charisma, and
he knows it. So he picks a spokesman.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Interesting, the man who apparently is so unbelievably fuckable right,
has no riz.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
He can do. He can make up a sex worker,
do whatever, but God forbid, has to sell his ideas.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Can't convince Americans about his tax policies.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
He's like, He's like, yeah, I'm a certified tex God
cannot put a sentence together.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Public cannot put a sentence together, can't talk in front
of a crowd.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I was like a helicopter while telling you about my
tax policy. It's just not gonna write.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
I'll write it on my dick. Yeah, there you go.
So he picks a spokesman, Dan Smoot, and I don't
have time to do a BTV on Dan Smoot, but
he's he deserves one. Smoot was orphaned at ten years
old and then as a young adult is rejected by
the army for medical reasons at the start of World
War Two, and so he joins the FBI in order

(49:04):
to serve his country that way.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
He's in the FBI until nineteen fifty one when he
resigns to work for Hunt. And What's Fair on.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
The work Greasy Wheel would call a side bastard.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah, he's definitely a sid. So in What's Fair on
the Air had the hindershot rights of Smoot. He was
willing to temper his arch conservatism by giving two sides
to the political issues discussed. So that's like a major thing.
Smoot has to be able to pretend to want to
discuss fairly what the other side believes. Now, his face

(49:37):
and his vote, it's always clear what he actually believes
and what he doesn't like saying. But as long as
he says it, that's all that matters. Now, these were
still the days in which the fairness doctrine held sway.
The fairness doctrine is a nineteen forty nine FCC policy
that required broadcast license holders to present controversial issues in
a matter that fairly depicted differing views. Individual shows didn't

(50:01):
have to abide by this, but license holders did. So
if you have a right wing show, you're supposed to
have like a left wing show too, right, And because
that's very expensive, networks are always looking for balanced news
programs to fill the air where you don't have to
have a second one to counteract the bias of the
first one. Right, So this is they're always desperate for

(50:22):
balanced content, and the fact that his Hunt is making
this and giving it to networks for free makes it
really attractive to them, like they're going to give it
free airtime because it's free. In nineteen fifty one, the
Facts Forum benefited from about five million per year in
free public service airtime. And again I think there's tax

(50:42):
benefits to the networks for running balanced educational content too,
so that's also makes this attractive to them. One estimate
I've seen is that in nineteen fifty four, Hunt benefited
from the modern day equivalent of half a billion dollars
a year in free airtime, which is the calculations that
in twenty sixteen, in that election Trump got about a

(51:03):
billion dollars in free airtime just in terms of like
because of how like many how much coverage the news
gave everything, he said, So the fact that Hunt's getting
half a billion a year for that for years is significant.
That's a lot of free airtime, right, It's about twenty
five thousand hours a free right wing propaganda on the
radio and TV per year that's marketed and billed as nonpartisan.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Interesting, he crossed fire energy. It's like we're just having
a conversation.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, he's invented Fox News. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. His
shows all air on struggling networks that need free content,
which at that point meant the Mutual Radio Network and ABC.
This quote from What's Fair on the Air gives you
a good idea of how episodes of Facts Forum tend
to go. One episode of Facts for Him asked whether

(51:56):
those advocating the violent overthrow of the US government should
be subject to the death penalty. On the pro side,
the answer was yes, of course, such a conspiracy was
worse than murder. On the con side, the argument was
that such conspirators were only dupes or communist sympathizers. Dangerous, Yes,
but those were just misguided pawns whose civil rights should
be respected. Bus As one critic described it, a negative

(52:17):
argument against the death penalty for communist conspirators turns into
a positive affirmation that nation is in imminent danger of
collapse from subversion, a favorite Facts Forum thesis. Right. So,
that's how, even though they're kind of pretending that this
is non biased, everyone, even the left wing argument pushes
a right wing narrative. And there are critics who noticed

(52:40):
this at the time. In nineteen fifty four, bin Bagdikian,
which is a real name, wrote a takedown of the
Facts Forum, Yeah, complaining that when it used the terms
pro Soviet and Unamerican, it meant quote. Those terms include
the Roosevelt and Truman administrations and the people who supported them,
Right so, Yeah, and when it refers to American freedom,

(53:03):
the show means, among other things, a total absence of
government regulation in business and a withdrawal from the United Nations.
They're referring to. These things is things everyone believes and
believes and agrees with, even though they're very much not right. Yeah,
And we'll talk more about these his shows, the Facts Forum,

(53:24):
the shows that follow that, and Hunt's bizarre personal life
and the things he comes to believe about health and wellness.
But I think that's all we've got for part two,
so I'm guessing it's gonna have to be a three parter. Princess,
how are you feeling at the end of this?

Speaker 3 (53:40):
I'm so ready. I want to know more about this guy.
I feel like I'm watching the origin of so much evil.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yes, well, good stuff, everybody, good stuff. So that's that's it, everybody,
We're done for the day. Why don't you go? And uh,
I don't know. Love yourself, touch grass, love yourself, love me, love.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Someone else, love your two families, yeah or four.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
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(54:35):
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