September 15, 2024 • 46 mins
Audiobook narrator Jackie Meloche reads Margaret the first chapter of her own upcomin book!
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Book Club, book Club, book Club, book Club book Club.
It's the Cool Zone Media book Club, the only podcast
where you don't have to do the reading. And usually
I say, because I do the reading. But this week
it's going to be different. This week, instead of reading
to a guest, I found a guest to read to me.
(00:29):
I found Jackie milash Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
So, Jackie is the narrator of my upcoming book, The
Sapling Cage. You've probably heard me talking about for the
past like six months at least or longer. But I thought,
wouldn't it be fun to read you all a chapter
of it? And then I thought, wouldn't it be even
more fun if you all could listen to the person
(00:55):
who's going to be doing the reading of it in
your ears? Because Jackie's narrator of the book, So I
thought she should come on and read you all some
of the book.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, hell yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I usually do like a bio of the author, but
I'm not going to do a bio of the author,
but tell us about you really quickly.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Uh yeah, So I'm I'm like, who am I. It's
one of those things where like as soon as anybody
asks me a question and I have all the knowledge
I have just disappears. I'm a voice actor who specializes
in audiobook narration. I'm based out of the ann Arbor,
Michigan area, and I also work out a library part
time as well, and so it's a cool gig. This
(01:34):
story meant a lot to me because I am transfeminine myself.
My pronouns are she, they, and so a lot of
what's like in the text really really resonated with me.
And so I was thrilled to be able to narrate
this title, and I'm thrilled to be here to read
a little piece of it for you guys today.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I had nothing to do with the decision making of narrators,
but I did get to hear the like audition piece
and I was like, oh, no, this is going to work,
this is gonna be right, thank you. So The Sapling
Cage is a book that I wrote, and it is
a crossover, which means it's a YA book that knows
it's going to be read by adults, which did me
a lot of good. Well, we'll talk about the book
(02:14):
more at the end after the reading, but instead it's
called The Sapling Cage. It comes out September twenty fourth,
twenty twenty four, in both audiobook and print book form,
and you can pre order either the print or the audio,
or both if you're feeling spicy. I don't know why
that's spicy, but you could do it.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
All right, let's hear this amazing story. I've never had
anyone read me one of my own things before. I
suppose that is an unusual sort of sensation and feeling. Yeah, yeah,
especially because it's like a fantasy world full of weird names.
But you know, sure it's going to be great. Oh yeah,
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Hell yeah, all right, all right. One, the alder tree
was ancient, and its leaves and branches left sunlight dappled
on the forest floor. It was also dead, and it
shouldn't have been. Everywhere around us the forest was waking
from winter. Everything was bluebells and white trilliums and new
(03:16):
buds on branches and bright green leaves. Everything was spring
except the alder. Its bark was sharp with cold, like
ice or like stone. Its leaves were gray. I don't
think trees are supposed to be like that, Blaine said.
(03:37):
We'd finished our morning work on the communal fields not
a hundred yards away through the trees. Horses ran in
the pasture, excited to be outside after so many months
of snow. I could smell rain in the air. It
should have been a perfect day. But the alder was dead,
and it shouldn't have been. Witchcraft. Lane said. That was
(04:00):
her explanation for everything strange. It couldn't be the witches.
I said, that was my defense of everything blamed on witchcraft.
She paced around the tree. It took her several paces
for every lap. She was half a year younger than me,
she'd just turned sixteen, but she was the one always
(04:21):
trying to burn off extra energy. I peered at the
frost gathered on the alder's bark. I see another one,
Laine said. She took off, running further into the forest,
and I caught up with her a ways away. A
young pine was dead and cold, its needles gone gray.
One shattered at the touch of my finger. Who else
(04:44):
but witches, Lane asked, Trees don't turn cold. Only a
witch could save it. I said, you'll be able to
save it. Oh hooray, Lane said, sarcastically. It's not that bad.
I didn't make that deal. I don't think my dead
mom's promise she'd mean anything. Layne and I started back
(05:07):
toward the village. Witches get to wear those black skirts, though,
I said, and curse people and heal people. I'd rather
be a knight, you know. I'd rather be a knight.
Why are you arguing with me about this? That was
a fair question. I thought it over as we walked.
(05:29):
If I was a girl, I'd pretend to be you
and go in your place. I'd always wanted to be
a witch. It's a shame you aren't a girl, Laine said.
I agreed, not just because of the witch thing. One
of my earliest memories was being glad that my name
Laurel was as common for girls as it was for boys.
(05:52):
Five years back, my mother had given up trying to
keep me out of her face, powder and paint. Laine
had always been gamed to trade clothes with me. Those
were the only two people in town who I talked
to about how I should have been a girl. I
had enough social problems already. When I was little, maybe seven,
(06:13):
I told my friend River to call me a girl
instead of a boy, and he just punched me right
then and there, without thinking about it. My mom thought
my nose was broke and a traveling witch had to
set it for me. River apologized, and maybe he even
meant it that he was sorry, but he'd made it
seem like the whole thing was my fault, like I'd
(06:35):
scared him or something. So yeah, only my mom and
Lane knew about the dresses and the paint. If I
were a witch, though, I could turn the next person
like River into a goat, or figure out things like
why those trees were cold. I'll do it anyway, I said,
(06:56):
as we walked through the fields of flax and barley.
What I started talking faster so I wouldn't lose my nerve.
When the coven comes through to take you, I'll tell
them i'm you, and I'll go off and learn to
be a witch. You're a boy, Laine said. Girls are
allowed to be nights, now, why can't boys be witches?
(07:17):
And besides, it's not my fault I'm a boy. It's
still true. I can pretend. Lane walked up next to
me and threw her arms around my shoulders. What if
you get caught. I won't get caught, I said. Strangers
always think I'm a girl. Anyway, My mother and I
(07:39):
ran the stables. There were more popular roads than Southede,
and there were more prosperous towns than Ledstone on Southeide,
but we still saw our share of wayfarers. Most were
on their way to Port Sac to our east, or
Deadmond Castle to our west, and most of them had horses,
and most of them stabled with us overnight. We served
(08:00):
knights and mercenaries and merchants and brigands. And I was
just reaching an age where grown men took not a
small amount of interest in trying to figure out my gender.
I didn't have even a hint of a beard, my
shoulders were narrow, and I had my mother's sharp features.
These are witches, though Lane reminded me, they can see
(08:23):
more than other people can. Were you trying to talk
me out of it? I asked no. She squeezed me
tighter against her side as we walked. I'm just worried.
What will you tell your dads or your mother. I
won't tell Grell or Jorge anything. My dad's had a
(08:45):
home all the way in Port Sac. I lived with
them every autumn for a month or so. When the
storms kept them on land most of the year. I
didn't hear from them, and their only contribution to my
upbringing was the silver they sent my mother when they could. Mom,
though she'll understand, I love it like I love the Baron,
(09:07):
my mother said when I told her, that was about
as close as she came to cursing. She sure didn't
love Baron, need no one did. She sat in her
rocking chair, a clay mug of wine in her hand.
I'd waited until after supper to tell her, because she
never took news well on an empty stomach. I didn't either,
(09:30):
come to think of it, she took a long draw
of the mug. You're old enough to make your own mistakes.
After that, she didn't say anything at all, which was
kind of worse than her yelling at me. Really, it
left me with nothing to do but stand around there
was only one good chair on the porch of the
(09:51):
stable house and come to my own conclusions about why
it was a bad idea. I didn't want to do that,
I'd made up my so I tried not to linger
on what the witches might do to me if they
found out, or what nights sometimes did to witches. I'll
get to learn magic, I said, real magic. Cauldrons and curses,
(10:14):
and maybe I'll even learn how to fly. What is
it that you think witches do? They travel around doing
good things? I said, they help some people and hurt
some people, depending on what they deserve. That's what you
want to do, help some people, hurt other people. Since
when have you liked hurting people? I don't know, mom,
(10:39):
since never. I guess it was my turn to grow quiet.
I'd probably learned that trick from her. The cicadas were
out and early too, filling the air with their rising
and falling song. The town drunk said it was going
to be an irrational year, one of those years where
the seasons don't do it, there's a host to and
(11:00):
crops fail. No one paid him over much heed, But
the cicadas really shouldn't have been out just yet. There's
no way to disguise yourself, my mom said, breaking the silence,
not forever. You don't look at now, but you're going
to grow into a man by then. I bet I'll
(11:21):
have magic enough to hide it. I said, I won't
hear the end of it, never, not from Grell. When
she invoked my birth father's name, I knew that was
basically the end of it. She'd given up. I was
my mother's child through and through, and she knew I
didn't care what Grell thought. I hadn't inherited anything from Grell,
(11:45):
but skin half a shade darker than my mother's olive.
This is it, then, she said. She poured the dregs
of her wine off into the grass, honored the dead,
as she did with every coup. The cavin is going
to be by soon enough, and you're going to lie
to them, and you'll learn to be a witch. Not
a sailor, not a knight, not another's forbid, a stable master,
(12:10):
but a witch, my son, a witch. I nodded, grinning.
She hadn't stopped me. I knew deep in my heart
that if it was truly a terrible idea, my mother
would have tried harder to stop me. What's Laine going
to do while you're off being her? She want to
(12:30):
learn how to run a stable. She's going to be
a knight. Of course, she is my mom's side. I
knew she wasn't happy about me leaving. I knew she
wanted someone to care about the stables, about Ledstone the
way she did. But that wasn't me. It wouldn't have
done anyone any good for me to pretend otherwise. But
(12:53):
if you want to pretend to care about things, you
could pretend to care about the advertisers that support the
pot guests that you run, much like I'm doing right now.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Here's some ads yang capitalism and rebec.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Witches don't really keep proper schedules, but most years they
made their way down southeat around Mother's May, the spring holiday.
I figured I had about a week to repare myself.
The witches didn't know Lane by name. They were just
coming for the daughter of Leona of the Lead, now
that she'd seen sixteen years. I started sleeping over at
(13:44):
the Lead manor in case they came at night. The
house was a decrepit shell, really, the rock walls overgrown
with vines and half the lumber taken to rot. Laane
did what she could to maintain it, but she'd live
there alone for three years. She spent most of her
days working the communal fields, and hadn't the skills or
(14:04):
resources for serious repairs. The manner was a shadow of
its former glory. That manner dead manner. Lane called it
rhyming the name. A few hundred years ago Lane's ancestors
had founded the town to mine. Lad then sworn fealty
to some baroness or baron. Serfs moved in, and those
(14:25):
who weren't mining took to farming on the communal fields.
One hundred years back, collectivisation had swept through the Lowlands,
and the baron had allowed it Rather than lose power completely.
Lane's family stayed richer than most of the rest of us,
but only through trade and inheritance. They no longer ruled,
and they no longer took tax. Only the baron did
(14:47):
either of those things. By Lane's mother's time, the family
barely had enough to maintain the ancient manner. The first
night I spent there waiting for the witches, Lane led
me up treacherous stairs to her parents' old living quarters.
We had to pick our way carefully across the sagging
floor in the lamplight. I'm going to bring this place
(15:08):
back to glory, Lane said, tugging her shirtsleeve free from
a protruating nail. I'll be the first night protector Letston's
hat in fifty years. You really think you'll come back,
I asked, you won't. I mean I'll visit my mom,
I said, sometimes we could use a village witch, Lane said,
(15:32):
Just think of this place with a night protector and
a village witch. Too much world to see, I said,
since I'd made up my mind to join the witches,
I'd spent half my time waking and asleep imagining all
the things I was off to see and do. We
stopped before a heavy cherrywood wardrobe set in the corner
(15:52):
of the master bedroom. Its hinges were faded brass, but
gold filigrees still gleamed eternally bright along the doorpan. Before
Lane's mother died, she had always kept us out of
this room. After Lane's mother died, Lane herself had solemnly
told me that this wardrobe was off limits. Lane selected
(16:14):
an iron key hung on a chain from her belt
and held it aloft so we might appreciate the seriousness
of the moment. You ready, she asked. I nodded. I
could scarcely wait. She opened the wardrobe. Black skirts and
dresses hung from hooks. Stockings woven in intricate patterns lay
(16:37):
in a pile. Jewelry finely crafted from plain materials, glittered
beneath the glass lid of an ebony box. I'd studied
at the loom enough to know the long days it
took to weave a few yards of flax or wool.
This was the accumulated wealth of a life. My mother
left pretty clear instructions for when I left to join
(16:59):
the Witches. Lane said I was to bring a short dress,
a long dress, a warm cloak, a winter skirt, and
three pairs of stockings. So pick out whatever you'd like
my own dress. I would have my own dress, two
of them. Even. I spent most of an hour making
(17:22):
my decision, modeling each garment in front of the mirror
on the inside door of the wardrobe. Not even Leona
of the lad had ever owned a smooth glass mirror,
so my image was distorted. That suited me fine. It
let me imagine how I ought to look. I let
my hair down out of its top knot long and
(17:42):
straight and black. It framed my face well. I'd have
worn it down all the time if I could. Though
I was much taller than Lane, I was nearly the
same size as Leona had been. Most of the dresses
sat funny across my chest since I had nothing to
fill them out, and even fewer of them were loose
enough across the hips to hide the bulge between my legs.
(18:05):
But in the end I found two that fit me
just right. Both were high waisted, which made my legs
look longer and my torso shorter. One linen, one wool.
When I wore those dresses, I couldn't stop smiling. You're beautiful,
Lene said, she was smiling too. She thought for a moment,
(18:29):
then dug through the wardrobe. She pulled out a necklace,
A black stone pendant hung from a delicate steel chain.
She held it out to me. No one in town
had anything so nice. Your mother didn't say anything about
taking any jewelry, I said, she's dead. Take it as
(18:51):
I thank you. I took it and put it on.
It hung just above the low neckline of the long dress,
the stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how
I was born, I was going to get to be
a witch, despite how I was born, I was going
to get to live as a woman. Lane squeezed me.
(19:17):
She was crying into my neck. Thank you, she whispered.
Of course I started crying too. I slept in my
long dress that night. I wanted to get used to
wearing it, and also I just didn't want to take
it off. I slept in one of the empty rooms
(19:40):
in the manner. A windstorm howled outside, and branches cracked
in the distance. I dreamt about a witch with translucent skin.
I saw her skull and her veins and her teeth
like I was looking through foggy glass. She was a
real woman, a real witch who'd wandered through town when
(20:00):
I was an infant. I dreamt about her ever since.
That night though I was a witch, and the glass
faced Witch was with me, next to me, tied to
me with thick hemp rope. We were in a boat.
Hands lifted us out of the boat and threw us overboard,
and we sank, and I was drowning, tied the glass
(20:24):
faced witch.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And if you want to survive drowning in a sea
of choices, nothing can save you except having those choices
made for you already, by choosing what to buy based
on what advertises on your favorite show, like these advertisers.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Here they are. And Rebecca Mother's may came and went
with no sign of the coven, no word from anyone
(21:06):
passing through either, though of course I had to be
careful with my inquiries. Witches weren't beloved everywhere across Seacon.
None of the baronies outlawed witchcraft outright, but not everyone
knew and appreciated the social utility of witchcraft, and very
few of the knightly brotherhoods would raise a hand or
(21:28):
a sword to protect witches. Some knights saw witches as
a threat to their power and haunted them. If I
told the wrong knights we were expecting witches, I might
even get them killed. Most of the news was talk
of strife. Far to the north, Duchess Helta had pressed
some ancient and dubious claim and annexed some baron's holdings.
(21:52):
The news felt impossibly distant. I tried to make myself
useful at the stables, but as the days were or on,
I got more and more anxious and distracted. One day
I forgot to fasten a buckle, and a passing merchant
fell from her horse and injured her back. After that,
my mother told me it was about time she got
(22:14):
used to running the place alone anyway, which left me
with too much time to worry. What would witches do
to an impostor would they kick me out, turn me
into a sow, or kill me. They'd probably just kicked
me out. Maybe my mother took to eating dinner with
(22:35):
us at Lane's house, particularly after she fired me, and
I spent more of my time baking and cooking. Five
days after Mother's May, I was reaching my breaking point.
We ate on the back porch where the overgrown garden
kept away prying eyes, and I wore my short dress.
The sun was just below the horizon. We were mopping
(22:58):
up the last of a turnip and barley soup with
fresh baked bread, and I just couldn't keep my feelings
cooped up anymore. I give up, I said, this waiting.
It's going to kill me, or the witches will kill me,
or people will kill me for being a witch. Better,
I just give up. I'll go be a sailor or
(23:19):
something instead. Sailors see the world too. Laine looked up,
her brown eyes just starting to go wide with fear.
If I backed out, the coven would take her instead.
You can do anything you want with your life, Laurel,
my mother said. I always knew a lecture was coming
(23:40):
when she used my name. And I don't wish you
were off to be a witch. But you made a
promise to Lane. I didn't say I promise, I said,
as soon as the words came out of my mouth,
I regretted them, saying, you promise isn't the only way
to promise. Yes, it's okay, Laine said, it was nice
(24:04):
of you to offer, but if you back out, it's okay.
I didn't like my mom being mean to me, and
I didn't like Lane being nice to me. I didn't
like much of anything at all. The Bloodston bell told
twice the Ledstone bell rang once for friendly knights and
(24:24):
merchants come to town, twice for friendly brigands and witches
and other people the baron didn't approve of three times
for royalty, and cacophonously for any of the above who
looked like they might stir up trouble. Never mind, I said,
standing up, I'll do it upstairs with you. My mother
said to Lane, out of sight, you look too much
(24:46):
like your mother. Laane darted over and hugged me. She
pulled back to look at me like she was trying
to say something. Then she gave up, shook her head,
and ran into the house. Are you going through with this,
my mother asked. I stood up straight, smoothed out my dress.
(25:08):
Of course, I said, I made a promise. My arms
shook uncontrollably at my side as I walked to the
center of town, and it was all I could do
to concentrate on my breathing. We have come for the
daughter of Leona.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Of the lead.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Five witches stood shoulder to shoulder in the center of
the town square. My whole childhood, I'd wanted to know
about witches. It was always hard to separate rumor from truth,
but I knew a few things. I knew that every
full fledged witch was the other's equal. For one thing,
each of these five were black from head to toe,
(25:48):
despite the warm evening and the heat radiating from the
cobbles beneath their boots. One was roughly my mother's age,
with the ivory, pale skin and narrow nose of someone
from the far north. Two of them were as old
as anyone I'd ever seen. Two of them could scarcely
have been twenty. One of the youngest had a fresh
(26:09):
wound cut across her face and stood with the help
of a crotch. Two of the others had bandaged arms.
I must have had trouble on the way. Maybe that
was why they were so late. Most of them were
armed with spears or axes or swords. The uninjured young
one carried what looked like a bird cage covered with
(26:29):
a cloth embroidered in the indecipherable rooms of witchcraft. Behind them,
a girl my age stood shyly, like she didn't know
quite what to do. Another recruit, most likely, she wore
the most beautiful black cloak made of glistening sea wool.
Its hood had a long pointed tail. That was a
(26:51):
good cloak for a witch. I'm Laurel, I said, I
lie the best when I sort of just avoid telling
the truth instead of lying outright, so I didn't mention
that I only had one name. I stepped forward, one witch.
One of the crones broke from the line and circled me,
(27:12):
looking me over. The rest of the witches carried baskets
of wicker on their backs, but this woman bore a
casket child sized instead. Laurel of the lead, she said,
my name was just Laurel, as my family bore no titles.
But who was I to correct a witch who'd likely
(27:33):
been born before my long dead great grandmother. She stopped
in front of me. Do you come willing or merely accepting?
She asked? There was an old scar on her cheek,
a crescent moon white against her dark olive skin. I
come willing, I said, My voice wavered as I spoke.
(27:58):
What had I gotten myself into? With eyes as old
and wise as hers, how could she not see right
through me? The witch smiled. Some of her teeth were yellow,
some of her teeth were black. One of her teeth
was captain gold, another captain pearl. The contrast between them
(28:19):
all was unnerving. Not many come willing, not these past years, why,
I asked. She ignored my question and went back to
stand in the line. Only a handful of people had
gathered to see this strange procession. The herbalist, a few farmers,
(28:41):
the midwife, River's mother. If any one of them said
anything about me dressed up like a girl, the whole
plan would fall apart. My mother stood among the onlookers,
balancing my wicker basket of clothes on her hip, holding
it by one of the woven shoulder straps. Laurel of
the lead, I summon you into the order of the
(29:03):
Vine today and forever you are, Laurel of the Vine.
I nodded. I knew no courtly manners for an event
like this. You have anything to bring with you, just clothes,
I said, My mother walked towards me, then setting the
basket down by my feet. Tears welled in the corners
(29:26):
of her eyes. You've been like a daughter to me,
my mother said. She winked and hugged me for a moment.
Go off and be your best self. The chrome looked
between me and my mother for a brief moment, as
if noticing the similarities in our features, but she said
(29:48):
nothing with no more formality. The line of witches turned
and walked out of town. I grabbed my basket of
clothes and hurried after. Hey, I hadn't seen through me.
I was going to be a witch. I wasn't shaking anymore.
(30:08):
I was grinning.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, yay.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
And that is the first chapter of the Sapling Cage.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And if you want to hear more of it, you
have to get the audiobook and you can listen to
Jackie read you the entire book, which I didn't think
I was gonna do, like because I don't tend to
read my own stuff too much. I mean, like, I
actually have to read this again like a bunch because
I'm working on the sequels. Right Oh sure, yeah, yeah,
(30:41):
but like I think I'm gonna listen to audiobook of it.
I think it's gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, I mean I had a wonderful time working on it,
just because like there were so many like cool characters,
and also like I fell in love with the setting
as well, and also like the concept of like here's
this coming of age Matt story that's not turfy. Yeah totally,
you know, like speaking as a former Potterhead like it was.
(31:07):
It was really really nice to to have like a
magic story that I got to tell because this was
the first time I had ever gotten to tell any
sort of coming of age story as like a trans
person okay, or if not the first one of the
first yeah, but yeah, so it it meant a lot
that I got to like sort of help bring this
(31:29):
story to life, and I had such a good time
with it. And I will say this job is a
lot easier when the writing is good. And the writing
is so good in this book, So thank you. Even
if you're not going to listen to me, you should
buy the book listeners, you should buy the book and
give it a read, because holy hell, it's a wonderful story.
(31:51):
Even with the way you're saying about you know, the
writing itself on something right when I read for this show.
I find that certain stories are so much easier to
read than others, just in terms of the number of
retakes I need to do. And it's interesting because even
listening to you, like, obviously no one.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Will hear that you ever had to do any retakes.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
But there's a.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Couple, right, a few, and but most of the retakes
are kind of like the way that you accidentally read
it first is the way that's a little bit more natural,
you know, So just interesting thinking about the way that, Yeah,
the type of pros like, especially when I read like
weird old nineteenth century stuff, I'm like, nothing's written in
(32:28):
the way that you expect it to be, and you know, but.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, no, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's funny because I'm like usually talk about the text
or whatever afterwards, but then I'm like, well, I wrote it.
I have both all of the thoughts and none of
the thoughts. I mean, let me ask you a few
questions about it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, sure, So I think I remember when we were
like talking in pre production about this, you said you
had started writing this story what like ten years back, almost.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Ten years back, it was probably twenty sixteen or so. Wow,
eight years or so.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, And was there something that sort of like helped
this story had come to you where there were like
experiences you had or were you just like, wow, we
were missing this kind of story.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
There's a couple different things. There's like one that I
give credit to. Have you read The Song of the Lion,
a series by Timora Pierce. I have not, but that's
not the first time I've heard of that series. Yeah,
it's about a young girl whose brother is promised to
go be a night and doesn't want to be a knight.
He wants to be a wizard, and so she dresses
up as a boy and goes off and becomes a knight.
(33:24):
And I read that when I was in fifth grade
and it blew my little gender confused brain in a
way that I still don't entirely know how to wrap
my head around, Like, oh, yeah, I'm a girl who
likes swords who pretended to be a boy for her
entire childhood, Like you know, I identify with that character.
Oh yeah, and I wanted to do something kind of
the other direction. And there's actually a short story that
(33:46):
someone who's sometimes a guest on my other show, Lori
Penny wrote, I actually don't think it's been published, but
I read it while we were in a writing workshop
together that had as like a side character a boy
who went off to become a witch. And so I
think that that idea was always kind of sitting in
the back of my mind, and I very like confused
ideas about you know, gender is like a moving target
and the way we talk about it as a society
(34:06):
as a moving target. It's absolutely it's different now than
it was in twenty sixteen when I came out, And
it's different in twenty sixteen than it was in two
thousand and four when I, you know, first started calling
myself Margaret, because I managed to call myself Margaret for
twelve years before I bothered telling anyone I was a girl.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Sometimes that's how it goes, I know.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
And like that wasice about like punk scenes, just people
were like all right, yeah, like yeah, sure, yeah. When
I was like a street kid, like I remember like
sleeping in Tompkins Square Park and I would do this
thing where I would wear cargo pants and then a
loose MAXI skirt over it, and so that when I
needed to like boy mode really quickly, I would just
tuck the skirt into the pockets of the cargo pants.
(34:49):
That's a smart move. Yeah, yeah, no, it worked for me.
And like I remember one time I was like just
like sleeping in the park during the day and then
I like woke up and ran somewhere and I wasn't
thinking about it. My like skirt fell down and all
the like. They weren't like the cool punks. They were
like the kind of scary punks or whatever. They saw it,
and they were like, yeah, all right whatever, And I
was like, oh right, folks who live on the edge
of society don't give a shit about stuff like this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's really funny. How like like you said,
how like gender is this like constantly moving target and
all of that. Yeah, because like, yeah, that is something
that I'm still feeling, because like for me, it was
like I remember being young and like like feeling some
way about gender but not really having like the vocabulary
to describe it. I remember like learning what a lesbian
(35:33):
was and like feeling like, wow, that resonates with me
for some reason. I guess I'm like a lesbian and
the body of a young boy. And then I proceeded
to not think about that for fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And then like when I was in high school, I
started to like develop like attractions to like the boys
my age, and I was like, oh, oh, so I'm gay. Okay,
I guess that makes sense. And then I ran with
that until I was in college, and then my freshman
year I had this way I can only describe as
a dysphoric breakdown in front of the mirror, okay. And
then that got me like being like, okay, what is
(36:01):
this gender stuff? Because stuff is happening. Then I learned
like about the gender fluid kind of label and non
binary and just how it's not necessarily like this purely
defined like man or woman kind of thing, and how
that was like a thing, and I was like, Okay,
I'm probably somewhere in that camp. I guess like we'll
go with like queer ish and then I didn't really
(36:23):
do anything beyond that. I had like done some research
into like do I want to transition? Do I not
want to transition? And like at the time, I was
like I don't think this is for me, at least
not right now. Yeah, and then I ran with that
of like, yeah, I'm this queer person who's very like
male presenting and all of that, and then the pandemic
of twenty twenty happened, and I had all of this
(36:44):
free time to actually think about like things in life
and like being like, huh, when faced with the very
real prospect of my own mortality, am I like any regrets?
And I was like kind of wish I had explored
gender a little more, and you know, maybe like dipped
my toes and so like I don't know, like what's
HRT about. And then I remember like having those thoughts,
(37:07):
and I was like, oh, son of a bitch, Okay,
I guess I have to do the thing I've been
avoiding doing. I guess I have to do the thing
that I've been avoiding thinking about for a while. And
so I got a therapist and like talked things out,
and like we both very quickly like came to the
consensus of like yeah, you're trans yeah, and I was
able to start HRT hell yeah. But like, yeah, it's
(37:30):
really funny because like I remember starting like HRT and
like I was very much like playing with like they
then she heard she they, I was she they for
a while, and then I kept getting consistently they themmed
only and so I was like Okay. I think a
(37:50):
lot of this was from like the the cist people
in my life who I love dearly. Yeah, I like
love you all and like, believe me, I was happy
that y'all were so to practice theay them because that's
hard for SIS people.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Right, totally.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
But it eventually got to the point where I was like,
all right, y'all are constantly they theming me and never
she she hurrang me, So y'all have lost your day
them rights and so and so I was like strictly
she her for a couple of years after that, and
then it's only recently that I have gone back to
she they because I was like, Okay, this feels more accurate.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And another weird thing that I noticed was like, while
while transitioning and like allowing myself to like have these
thoughts and things, was that I realized that I didn't
suddenly go from the gay man that I thought I
was to the straight girl m hm. And like I started,
I started to realize I had like sapphic feelings for
some women, and I was like, oh, oh, we're by yeah,
(38:47):
son of a bitch.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
So over the years, I've resonated with pretty much all
the letters. Yeah, and I've won a cuer bingo. It's like,
I don't know what I win other than bragging rights,
I say, your quote, but like a combination of oppression
points and regular oppression.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
All this is to say is just that, like, yeah,
gender is funny. Gender and sexuality are weird and cool,
and you know, yeah, it's not always this super defined thing.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I really resonate with what you're saying about. Like, for me,
the decision to come out in twenty sixteen was that
a transoitman I knew died in the ghost Ship fire
in Oakland, which was a DIY space that burned down,
and I believe the end of twenty sixteen, and it
was like right before my birthday, and I was just
like and it's awful and selfish, but you know, I
(39:36):
was like, oh, what if I died? Right, So it's
the same thing. It's like staring at your mortality and
you're like, well, I don't want to be remembered so
completely incorrectly, you know, I like just don't want to
be like just like imagining in my own tombstone with
like the wrong name on it, you know, And you're
just like, yeah, it's hard and it's hard to imagine that,
(39:58):
and so that was like, yeah, that was a lot
of what made it feel necessary for me to come out.
And it's interesting because in this book, you know, the protagonist,
not to spoil anything, the protagonist is like, you know,
questioning her feelings around gender and like explores it in
a lot of different ways. And one of the things
I really liked about getting to do this is that
(40:19):
getting to explore gender in a world that just isn't ours,
Like this isn't like, no one's going to come up
in this book spoiler, and no one's going to be like, Hi,
I'm she they you know, even though I'm a she
the it was written by SHEI the right. But like,
but since gender is a social construct, it's going to
(40:40):
be constructed differently in a like medieval fantasy setting, and
that's like one of the things that I really want
to explore with it, and I hope that folks are
able to kind of get out of it.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm so looking forward to reading
the next installment in the series because just to watch
how more things develop with this story. And like, certain
again I won't give spoilers, but yeah, certain relationships and
friendships and dynamics that developed in this first book, and
(41:11):
see how they continue to develop and grow.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, and if folks want to hear what the book is,
you could listen to it. And if you're like, I
hate to say, it's like, it's obviously a book about
a transgirl, but it is not primarily a book about gender.
It is primarily a book about why I like spears.
It is primarily a book that is a you know,
(41:34):
high fantasy ya about I mean, honestly, the big metaphor
that is in this if you listen to my history podcast,
you'll understand that I'm obsessed with like the enclosure of
the commons and taking things that are like wild and
communal and putting them into the hands of only a
few people in a specialized way. And they like how
that's empowered capitalism and all those things. Like that's actually
(41:54):
the the plot, right, The character and the identity of
the character is that she is transfeminine. The plot of
the book is these trees that are dying and what
is to be done about it. So if you're like, well,
if you hate gender stuff, you're not gonna like this book.
But if you're like not specifically looking for a gender book.
It doesn't matter. This isn't specifically a gender book. It
(42:16):
just happens to be right that as well. It just
happens to have a transfemine protagonist. Yeah, and like other
queer people in it too, but it's never At least,
the way it read to me was like it seemed
perfectly natural. It didn't feel like, I know, there are
folks out there who say that we're constantly like shoving
it down their throat or whatever, and I mean, I
can speak for myself here, but like that's not at
(42:38):
all how the text came across to me. But if
you're listening to this and you would like to start
a campaign against this book, all publicity is free publicity,
and so I will pretend that it's a gender book
if I don't know if I actually feel that way,
because like part of me is like ha ha ha
if I got a list of banned books, like, imagine
(42:59):
what they'll do for my career, And then I'm like,
it also just sucks because I actually want this book
to be available to kids to read.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
The thing, like, yes, yes, that would definitely get more
eyes on it. And also I I mean listen, Like,
I think queer stories are really important, and especially like
stories like this, Like they're always important, but I feel
like now, especially yeah, in our current political climate and
day and age and all of the scariness that has
(43:28):
been sort of centered around queer and trans people in particular,
I think this story is like super important and I
think people should read it. I know that, like, at
least again speaking for myself, if I had gotten to
read this book as a kid, my life would have
been very different, yeah, and like positive, Yeah, my life
(43:48):
would have been really different and I would have figured
stuff out a lot sooner.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
That was a big part of it, as I was like,
I want to write the book that I want to
give to twelve year old me.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
You know yeah, yeah yeah, all.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Right, Well, I think we're kind of out of time,
but thanks for joining us on coolsone Media book Club.
The book is called The Saplink Cage. It comes out
September twenty fourth, twenty twenty four, from Feminist Press, and
you all should listen to the audiobook. Do you have
anything else do you want to plug? You have like
other books that you're like, go out and listen to
this other book I did or what else you've been
working on.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Oh God, if you want to hear another story like
narrating like a transperson's perspective, if you listen to five
part Invention by Andrea J. Buchanan. I got to work
with four other extremely talented narrators on that, and it's
a heavy story. It deals with like generational trauma, but
it's very, very well crafted. And I thought that Zoe's
(44:42):
part of it in particular, which is the character that
I got to read for, was especially handled with care
and that was really well done. Another transfer, I recently
got to read the autobiography of Philip, a writer who
is this really badass trans writes activist in Ireland, and
that was really cool.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
That sounds cool.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Other than that, if you're more of like the superhero
kind of stuff, I've read several Spider Man books as well,
so you'll check those out.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I mean, there's secretly trans people in the Spider Man world.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, whoops. But I've done a lot of different stuff,
but I guess those were some of the standouts for me. Okay,
so I didn't have anything more eloquent to plug or
to say.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Oh no, you warn me ahead of time that you're
not an improvisor. You work from scripts then I and
then I asked you questions that I didn't warn you
I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So sorry, it happens, but I encourage everybody to check
out more of that quality queer literature.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Hell yeah. And if you want to see the two
of us together in person, us even meeting in person
for the first time. Yes, on October fifteenth at the
ann Arbor District Library at the downtown location at six
thirty pm. I'm going to be on tour with the
Sapling Cage and it's going to be sweet because instead
of me I'm going to do a reading, I'm going
to make Jackie do it six thirty pm, Octoveber fifteenth,
(46:00):
the ann Arbor District Library and its downtown location.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Hell yeah, I'm so looking forward to that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
All right, I'll talk to everyone next week. Have a
good week.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen Here.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com Slash Sources thanks for listening.
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Book Club, book Club, book Club, book Club book Club.
It's the Cool Zone Media book Club, the only podcast
where you don't have to do the reading. And usually
I say, because I do the reading. But this week
it's going to be different. This week, instead of reading
to a guest, I found a guest to read to me.
(00:29):
I found Jackie milash Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
So, Jackie is the narrator of my upcoming book, The
Sapling Cage. You've probably heard me talking about for the
past like six months at least or longer. But I thought,
wouldn't it be fun to read you all a chapter
of it? And then I thought, wouldn't it be even
more fun if you all could listen to the person
(00:55):
who's going to be doing the reading of it in
your ears? Because Jackie's narrator of the book, So I
thought she should come on and read you all some
of the book.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, hell yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I usually do like a bio of the author, but
I'm not going to do a bio of the author,
but tell us about you really quickly.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Uh yeah, So I'm I'm like, who am I. It's
one of those things where like as soon as anybody
asks me a question and I have all the knowledge
I have just disappears. I'm a voice actor who specializes
in audiobook narration. I'm based out of the ann Arbor,
Michigan area, and I also work out a library part
time as well, and so it's a cool gig. This
(01:34):
story meant a lot to me because I am transfeminine myself.
My pronouns are she, they, and so a lot of
what's like in the text really really resonated with me.
And so I was thrilled to be able to narrate
this title, and I'm thrilled to be here to read
a little piece of it for you guys today.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I had nothing to do with the decision making of narrators,
but I did get to hear the like audition piece
and I was like, oh, no, this is going to work,
this is gonna be right, thank you. So The Sapling
Cage is a book that I wrote, and it is
a crossover, which means it's a YA book that knows
it's going to be read by adults, which did me
a lot of good. Well, we'll talk about the book
(02:14):
more at the end after the reading, but instead it's
called The Sapling Cage. It comes out September twenty fourth,
twenty twenty four, in both audiobook and print book form,
and you can pre order either the print or the audio,
or both if you're feeling spicy. I don't know why
that's spicy, but you could do it.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
All right, let's hear this amazing story. I've never had
anyone read me one of my own things before. I
suppose that is an unusual sort of sensation and feeling. Yeah, yeah,
especially because it's like a fantasy world full of weird names.
But you know, sure it's going to be great. Oh yeah,
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Hell yeah, all right, all right. One, the alder tree
was ancient, and its leaves and branches left sunlight dappled
on the forest floor. It was also dead, and it
shouldn't have been. Everywhere around us the forest was waking
from winter. Everything was bluebells and white trilliums and new
(03:16):
buds on branches and bright green leaves. Everything was spring
except the alder. Its bark was sharp with cold, like
ice or like stone. Its leaves were gray. I don't
think trees are supposed to be like that, Blaine said.
(03:37):
We'd finished our morning work on the communal fields not
a hundred yards away through the trees. Horses ran in
the pasture, excited to be outside after so many months
of snow. I could smell rain in the air. It
should have been a perfect day. But the alder was dead,
and it shouldn't have been. Witchcraft. Lane said. That was
(04:00):
her explanation for everything strange. It couldn't be the witches.
I said, that was my defense of everything blamed on witchcraft.
She paced around the tree. It took her several paces
for every lap. She was half a year younger than me,
she'd just turned sixteen, but she was the one always
(04:21):
trying to burn off extra energy. I peered at the
frost gathered on the alder's bark. I see another one,
Laine said. She took off, running further into the forest,
and I caught up with her a ways away. A
young pine was dead and cold, its needles gone gray.
One shattered at the touch of my finger. Who else
(04:44):
but witches, Lane asked, Trees don't turn cold. Only a
witch could save it. I said, you'll be able to
save it. Oh hooray, Lane said, sarcastically. It's not that bad.
I didn't make that deal. I don't think my dead
mom's promise she'd mean anything. Layne and I started back
(05:07):
toward the village. Witches get to wear those black skirts, though,
I said, and curse people and heal people. I'd rather
be a knight, you know. I'd rather be a knight.
Why are you arguing with me about this? That was
a fair question. I thought it over as we walked.
(05:29):
If I was a girl, I'd pretend to be you
and go in your place. I'd always wanted to be
a witch. It's a shame you aren't a girl, Laine said.
I agreed, not just because of the witch thing. One
of my earliest memories was being glad that my name
Laurel was as common for girls as it was for boys.
(05:52):
Five years back, my mother had given up trying to
keep me out of her face, powder and paint. Laine
had always been gamed to trade clothes with me. Those
were the only two people in town who I talked
to about how I should have been a girl. I
had enough social problems already. When I was little, maybe seven,
(06:13):
I told my friend River to call me a girl
instead of a boy, and he just punched me right
then and there, without thinking about it. My mom thought
my nose was broke and a traveling witch had to
set it for me. River apologized, and maybe he even
meant it that he was sorry, but he'd made it
seem like the whole thing was my fault, like I'd
(06:35):
scared him or something. So yeah, only my mom and
Lane knew about the dresses and the paint. If I
were a witch, though, I could turn the next person
like River into a goat, or figure out things like
why those trees were cold. I'll do it anyway, I said,
(06:56):
as we walked through the fields of flax and barley.
What I started talking faster so I wouldn't lose my nerve.
When the coven comes through to take you, I'll tell
them i'm you, and I'll go off and learn to
be a witch. You're a boy, Laine said. Girls are
allowed to be nights, now, why can't boys be witches?
(07:17):
And besides, it's not my fault I'm a boy. It's
still true. I can pretend. Lane walked up next to
me and threw her arms around my shoulders. What if
you get caught. I won't get caught, I said. Strangers
always think I'm a girl. Anyway, My mother and I
(07:39):
ran the stables. There were more popular roads than Southede,
and there were more prosperous towns than Ledstone on Southeide,
but we still saw our share of wayfarers. Most were
on their way to Port Sac to our east, or
Deadmond Castle to our west, and most of them had horses,
and most of them stabled with us overnight. We served
(08:00):
knights and mercenaries and merchants and brigands. And I was
just reaching an age where grown men took not a
small amount of interest in trying to figure out my gender.
I didn't have even a hint of a beard, my
shoulders were narrow, and I had my mother's sharp features.
These are witches, though Lane reminded me, they can see
(08:23):
more than other people can. Were you trying to talk
me out of it? I asked no. She squeezed me
tighter against her side as we walked. I'm just worried.
What will you tell your dads or your mother. I
won't tell Grell or Jorge anything. My dad's had a
(08:45):
home all the way in Port Sac. I lived with
them every autumn for a month or so. When the
storms kept them on land most of the year. I
didn't hear from them, and their only contribution to my
upbringing was the silver they sent my mother when they could. Mom,
though she'll understand, I love it like I love the Baron,
(09:07):
my mother said when I told her, that was about
as close as she came to cursing. She sure didn't
love Baron, need no one did. She sat in her
rocking chair, a clay mug of wine in her hand.
I'd waited until after supper to tell her, because she
never took news well on an empty stomach. I didn't either,
(09:30):
come to think of it, she took a long draw
of the mug. You're old enough to make your own mistakes.
After that, she didn't say anything at all, which was
kind of worse than her yelling at me. Really, it
left me with nothing to do but stand around there
was only one good chair on the porch of the
(09:51):
stable house and come to my own conclusions about why
it was a bad idea. I didn't want to do that,
I'd made up my so I tried not to linger
on what the witches might do to me if they
found out, or what nights sometimes did to witches. I'll
get to learn magic, I said, real magic. Cauldrons and curses,
(10:14):
and maybe I'll even learn how to fly. What is
it that you think witches do? They travel around doing
good things? I said, they help some people and hurt
some people, depending on what they deserve. That's what you
want to do, help some people, hurt other people. Since
when have you liked hurting people? I don't know, mom,
(10:39):
since never. I guess it was my turn to grow quiet.
I'd probably learned that trick from her. The cicadas were
out and early too, filling the air with their rising
and falling song. The town drunk said it was going
to be an irrational year, one of those years where
the seasons don't do it, there's a host to and
(11:00):
crops fail. No one paid him over much heed, But
the cicadas really shouldn't have been out just yet. There's
no way to disguise yourself, my mom said, breaking the silence,
not forever. You don't look at now, but you're going
to grow into a man by then. I bet I'll
(11:21):
have magic enough to hide it. I said, I won't
hear the end of it, never, not from Grell. When
she invoked my birth father's name, I knew that was
basically the end of it. She'd given up. I was
my mother's child through and through, and she knew I
didn't care what Grell thought. I hadn't inherited anything from Grell,
(11:45):
but skin half a shade darker than my mother's olive.
This is it, then, she said. She poured the dregs
of her wine off into the grass, honored the dead,
as she did with every coup. The cavin is going
to be by soon enough, and you're going to lie
to them, and you'll learn to be a witch. Not
a sailor, not a knight, not another's forbid, a stable master,
(12:10):
but a witch, my son, a witch. I nodded, grinning.
She hadn't stopped me. I knew deep in my heart
that if it was truly a terrible idea, my mother
would have tried harder to stop me. What's Laine going
to do while you're off being her? She want to
(12:30):
learn how to run a stable. She's going to be
a knight. Of course, she is my mom's side. I
knew she wasn't happy about me leaving. I knew she
wanted someone to care about the stables, about Ledstone the
way she did. But that wasn't me. It wouldn't have
done anyone any good for me to pretend otherwise. But
(12:53):
if you want to pretend to care about things, you
could pretend to care about the advertisers that support the
pot guests that you run, much like I'm doing right now.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Here's some ads yang capitalism and rebec.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Witches don't really keep proper schedules, but most years they
made their way down southeat around Mother's May, the spring holiday.
I figured I had about a week to repare myself.
The witches didn't know Lane by name. They were just
coming for the daughter of Leona of the Lead, now
that she'd seen sixteen years. I started sleeping over at
(13:44):
the Lead manor in case they came at night. The
house was a decrepit shell, really, the rock walls overgrown
with vines and half the lumber taken to rot. Laane
did what she could to maintain it, but she'd live
there alone for three years. She spent most of her
days working the communal fields, and hadn't the skills or
(14:04):
resources for serious repairs. The manner was a shadow of
its former glory. That manner dead manner. Lane called it
rhyming the name. A few hundred years ago Lane's ancestors
had founded the town to mine. Lad then sworn fealty
to some baroness or baron. Serfs moved in, and those
(14:25):
who weren't mining took to farming on the communal fields.
One hundred years back, collectivisation had swept through the Lowlands,
and the baron had allowed it Rather than lose power completely.
Lane's family stayed richer than most of the rest of us,
but only through trade and inheritance. They no longer ruled,
and they no longer took tax. Only the baron did
(14:47):
either of those things. By Lane's mother's time, the family
barely had enough to maintain the ancient manner. The first
night I spent there waiting for the witches, Lane led
me up treacherous stairs to her parents' old living quarters.
We had to pick our way carefully across the sagging
floor in the lamplight. I'm going to bring this place
(15:08):
back to glory, Lane said, tugging her shirtsleeve free from
a protruating nail. I'll be the first night protector Letston's
hat in fifty years. You really think you'll come back,
I asked, you won't. I mean I'll visit my mom,
I said, sometimes we could use a village witch, Lane said,
(15:32):
Just think of this place with a night protector and
a village witch. Too much world to see, I said,
since I'd made up my mind to join the witches,
I'd spent half my time waking and asleep imagining all
the things I was off to see and do. We
stopped before a heavy cherrywood wardrobe set in the corner
(15:52):
of the master bedroom. Its hinges were faded brass, but
gold filigrees still gleamed eternally bright along the doorpan. Before
Lane's mother died, she had always kept us out of
this room. After Lane's mother died, Lane herself had solemnly
told me that this wardrobe was off limits. Lane selected
(16:14):
an iron key hung on a chain from her belt
and held it aloft so we might appreciate the seriousness
of the moment. You ready, she asked. I nodded. I
could scarcely wait. She opened the wardrobe. Black skirts and
dresses hung from hooks. Stockings woven in intricate patterns lay
(16:37):
in a pile. Jewelry finely crafted from plain materials, glittered
beneath the glass lid of an ebony box. I'd studied
at the loom enough to know the long days it
took to weave a few yards of flax or wool.
This was the accumulated wealth of a life. My mother
left pretty clear instructions for when I left to join
(16:59):
the Witches. Lane said I was to bring a short dress,
a long dress, a warm cloak, a winter skirt, and
three pairs of stockings. So pick out whatever you'd like
my own dress. I would have my own dress, two
of them. Even. I spent most of an hour making
(17:22):
my decision, modeling each garment in front of the mirror
on the inside door of the wardrobe. Not even Leona
of the lad had ever owned a smooth glass mirror,
so my image was distorted. That suited me fine. It
let me imagine how I ought to look. I let
my hair down out of its top knot long and
(17:42):
straight and black. It framed my face well. I'd have
worn it down all the time if I could. Though
I was much taller than Lane, I was nearly the
same size as Leona had been. Most of the dresses
sat funny across my chest since I had nothing to
fill them out, and even fewer of them were loose
enough across the hips to hide the bulge between my legs.
(18:05):
But in the end I found two that fit me
just right. Both were high waisted, which made my legs
look longer and my torso shorter. One linen, one wool.
When I wore those dresses, I couldn't stop smiling. You're beautiful,
Lene said, she was smiling too. She thought for a moment,
(18:29):
then dug through the wardrobe. She pulled out a necklace,
A black stone pendant hung from a delicate steel chain.
She held it out to me. No one in town
had anything so nice. Your mother didn't say anything about
taking any jewelry, I said, she's dead. Take it as
(18:51):
I thank you. I took it and put it on.
It hung just above the low neckline of the long dress,
the stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how
I was born, I was going to get to be
a witch, despite how I was born, I was going
to get to live as a woman. Lane squeezed me.
(19:17):
She was crying into my neck. Thank you, she whispered.
Of course I started crying too. I slept in my
long dress that night. I wanted to get used to
wearing it, and also I just didn't want to take
it off. I slept in one of the empty rooms
(19:40):
in the manner. A windstorm howled outside, and branches cracked
in the distance. I dreamt about a witch with translucent skin.
I saw her skull and her veins and her teeth
like I was looking through foggy glass. She was a
real woman, a real witch who'd wandered through town when
(20:00):
I was an infant. I dreamt about her ever since.
That night though I was a witch, and the glass
faced Witch was with me, next to me, tied to
me with thick hemp rope. We were in a boat.
Hands lifted us out of the boat and threw us overboard,
and we sank, and I was drowning, tied the glass
(20:24):
faced witch.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And if you want to survive drowning in a sea
of choices, nothing can save you except having those choices
made for you already, by choosing what to buy based
on what advertises on your favorite show, like these advertisers.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Here they are. And Rebecca Mother's may came and went
with no sign of the coven, no word from anyone
(21:06):
passing through either, though of course I had to be
careful with my inquiries. Witches weren't beloved everywhere across Seacon.
None of the baronies outlawed witchcraft outright, but not everyone
knew and appreciated the social utility of witchcraft, and very
few of the knightly brotherhoods would raise a hand or
(21:28):
a sword to protect witches. Some knights saw witches as
a threat to their power and haunted them. If I
told the wrong knights we were expecting witches, I might
even get them killed. Most of the news was talk
of strife. Far to the north, Duchess Helta had pressed
some ancient and dubious claim and annexed some baron's holdings.
(21:52):
The news felt impossibly distant. I tried to make myself
useful at the stables, but as the days were or on,
I got more and more anxious and distracted. One day
I forgot to fasten a buckle, and a passing merchant
fell from her horse and injured her back. After that,
my mother told me it was about time she got
(22:14):
used to running the place alone anyway, which left me
with too much time to worry. What would witches do
to an impostor would they kick me out, turn me
into a sow, or kill me. They'd probably just kicked
me out. Maybe my mother took to eating dinner with
(22:35):
us at Lane's house, particularly after she fired me, and
I spent more of my time baking and cooking. Five
days after Mother's May, I was reaching my breaking point.
We ate on the back porch where the overgrown garden
kept away prying eyes, and I wore my short dress.
The sun was just below the horizon. We were mopping
(22:58):
up the last of a turnip and barley soup with
fresh baked bread, and I just couldn't keep my feelings
cooped up anymore. I give up, I said, this waiting.
It's going to kill me, or the witches will kill me,
or people will kill me for being a witch. Better,
I just give up. I'll go be a sailor or
(23:19):
something instead. Sailors see the world too. Laine looked up,
her brown eyes just starting to go wide with fear.
If I backed out, the coven would take her instead.
You can do anything you want with your life, Laurel,
my mother said. I always knew a lecture was coming
(23:40):
when she used my name. And I don't wish you
were off to be a witch. But you made a
promise to Lane. I didn't say I promise, I said,
as soon as the words came out of my mouth,
I regretted them, saying, you promise isn't the only way
to promise. Yes, it's okay, Laine said, it was nice
(24:04):
of you to offer, but if you back out, it's okay.
I didn't like my mom being mean to me, and
I didn't like Lane being nice to me. I didn't
like much of anything at all. The Bloodston bell told
twice the Ledstone bell rang once for friendly knights and
(24:24):
merchants come to town, twice for friendly brigands and witches
and other people the baron didn't approve of three times
for royalty, and cacophonously for any of the above who
looked like they might stir up trouble. Never mind, I said,
standing up, I'll do it upstairs with you. My mother
said to Lane, out of sight, you look too much
(24:46):
like your mother. Laane darted over and hugged me. She
pulled back to look at me like she was trying
to say something. Then she gave up, shook her head,
and ran into the house. Are you going through with this,
my mother asked. I stood up straight, smoothed out my dress.
(25:08):
Of course, I said, I made a promise. My arms
shook uncontrollably at my side as I walked to the
center of town, and it was all I could do
to concentrate on my breathing. We have come for the
daughter of Leona.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Of the lead.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Five witches stood shoulder to shoulder in the center of
the town square. My whole childhood, I'd wanted to know
about witches. It was always hard to separate rumor from truth,
but I knew a few things. I knew that every
full fledged witch was the other's equal. For one thing,
each of these five were black from head to toe,
(25:48):
despite the warm evening and the heat radiating from the
cobbles beneath their boots. One was roughly my mother's age,
with the ivory, pale skin and narrow nose of someone
from the far north. Two of them were as old
as anyone I'd ever seen. Two of them could scarcely
have been twenty. One of the youngest had a fresh
(26:09):
wound cut across her face and stood with the help
of a crotch. Two of the others had bandaged arms.
I must have had trouble on the way. Maybe that
was why they were so late. Most of them were
armed with spears or axes or swords. The uninjured young
one carried what looked like a bird cage covered with
(26:29):
a cloth embroidered in the indecipherable rooms of witchcraft. Behind them,
a girl my age stood shyly, like she didn't know
quite what to do. Another recruit, most likely, she wore
the most beautiful black cloak made of glistening sea wool.
Its hood had a long pointed tail. That was a
(26:51):
good cloak for a witch. I'm Laurel, I said, I
lie the best when I sort of just avoid telling
the truth instead of lying outright, so I didn't mention
that I only had one name. I stepped forward, one witch.
One of the crones broke from the line and circled me,
(27:12):
looking me over. The rest of the witches carried baskets
of wicker on their backs, but this woman bore a
casket child sized instead. Laurel of the lead, she said,
my name was just Laurel, as my family bore no titles.
But who was I to correct a witch who'd likely
(27:33):
been born before my long dead great grandmother. She stopped
in front of me. Do you come willing or merely accepting?
She asked? There was an old scar on her cheek,
a crescent moon white against her dark olive skin. I
come willing, I said, My voice wavered as I spoke.
(27:58):
What had I gotten myself into? With eyes as old
and wise as hers, how could she not see right
through me? The witch smiled. Some of her teeth were yellow,
some of her teeth were black. One of her teeth
was captain gold, another captain pearl. The contrast between them
(28:19):
all was unnerving. Not many come willing, not these past years, why,
I asked. She ignored my question and went back to
stand in the line. Only a handful of people had
gathered to see this strange procession. The herbalist, a few farmers,
(28:41):
the midwife, River's mother. If any one of them said
anything about me dressed up like a girl, the whole
plan would fall apart. My mother stood among the onlookers,
balancing my wicker basket of clothes on her hip, holding
it by one of the woven shoulder straps. Laurel of
the lead, I summon you into the order of the
(29:03):
Vine today and forever you are, Laurel of the Vine.
I nodded. I knew no courtly manners for an event
like this. You have anything to bring with you, just clothes,
I said, My mother walked towards me, then setting the
basket down by my feet. Tears welled in the corners
(29:26):
of her eyes. You've been like a daughter to me,
my mother said. She winked and hugged me for a moment.
Go off and be your best self. The chrome looked
between me and my mother for a brief moment, as
if noticing the similarities in our features, but she said
(29:48):
nothing with no more formality. The line of witches turned
and walked out of town. I grabbed my basket of
clothes and hurried after. Hey, I hadn't seen through me.
I was going to be a witch. I wasn't shaking anymore.
(30:08):
I was grinning.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, yay.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
And that is the first chapter of the Sapling Cage.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And if you want to hear more of it, you
have to get the audiobook and you can listen to
Jackie read you the entire book, which I didn't think
I was gonna do, like because I don't tend to
read my own stuff too much. I mean, like, I
actually have to read this again like a bunch because
I'm working on the sequels. Right Oh sure, yeah, yeah,
(30:41):
but like I think I'm gonna listen to audiobook of it.
I think it's gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, I mean I had a wonderful time working on it,
just because like there were so many like cool characters,
and also like I fell in love with the setting
as well, and also like the concept of like here's
this coming of age Matt story that's not turfy. Yeah totally,
you know, like speaking as a former Potterhead like it was.
(31:07):
It was really really nice to to have like a
magic story that I got to tell because this was
the first time I had ever gotten to tell any
sort of coming of age story as like a trans
person okay, or if not the first one of the
first yeah, but yeah, so it it meant a lot
that I got to like sort of help bring this
(31:29):
story to life, and I had such a good time
with it. And I will say this job is a
lot easier when the writing is good. And the writing
is so good in this book, So thank you. Even
if you're not going to listen to me, you should
buy the book listeners, you should buy the book and
give it a read, because holy hell, it's a wonderful story.
(31:51):
Even with the way you're saying about you know, the
writing itself on something right when I read for this show.
I find that certain stories are so much easier to
read than others, just in terms of the number of
retakes I need to do. And it's interesting because even
listening to you, like, obviously no one.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Will hear that you ever had to do any retakes.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
But there's a.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Couple, right, a few, and but most of the retakes
are kind of like the way that you accidentally read
it first is the way that's a little bit more natural,
you know, So just interesting thinking about the way that, Yeah,
the type of pros like, especially when I read like
weird old nineteenth century stuff, I'm like, nothing's written in
(32:28):
the way that you expect it to be, and you know, but.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, no, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's funny because I'm like usually talk about the text
or whatever afterwards, but then I'm like, well, I wrote it.
I have both all of the thoughts and none of
the thoughts. I mean, let me ask you a few
questions about it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, sure, So I think I remember when we were
like talking in pre production about this, you said you
had started writing this story what like ten years back, almost.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Ten years back, it was probably twenty sixteen or so. Wow,
eight years or so.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, And was there something that sort of like helped
this story had come to you where there were like
experiences you had or were you just like, wow, we
were missing this kind of story.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
There's a couple different things. There's like one that I
give credit to. Have you read The Song of the Lion,
a series by Timora Pierce. I have not, but that's
not the first time I've heard of that series. Yeah,
it's about a young girl whose brother is promised to
go be a night and doesn't want to be a knight.
He wants to be a wizard, and so she dresses
up as a boy and goes off and becomes a knight.
(33:24):
And I read that when I was in fifth grade
and it blew my little gender confused brain in a
way that I still don't entirely know how to wrap
my head around, Like, oh, yeah, I'm a girl who
likes swords who pretended to be a boy for her
entire childhood, Like you know, I identify with that character.
Oh yeah, and I wanted to do something kind of
the other direction. And there's actually a short story that
(33:46):
someone who's sometimes a guest on my other show, Lori
Penny wrote, I actually don't think it's been published, but
I read it while we were in a writing workshop
together that had as like a side character a boy
who went off to become a witch. And so I
think that that idea was always kind of sitting in
the back of my mind, and I very like confused
ideas about you know, gender is like a moving target
and the way we talk about it as a society
(34:06):
as a moving target. It's absolutely it's different now than
it was in twenty sixteen when I came out, And
it's different in twenty sixteen than it was in two
thousand and four when I, you know, first started calling
myself Margaret, because I managed to call myself Margaret for
twelve years before I bothered telling anyone I was a girl.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Sometimes that's how it goes, I know.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
And like that wasice about like punk scenes, just people
were like all right, yeah, like yeah, sure, yeah. When
I was like a street kid, like I remember like
sleeping in Tompkins Square Park and I would do this
thing where I would wear cargo pants and then a
loose MAXI skirt over it, and so that when I
needed to like boy mode really quickly, I would just
tuck the skirt into the pockets of the cargo pants.
(34:49):
That's a smart move. Yeah, yeah, no, it worked for me.
And like I remember one time I was like just
like sleeping in the park during the day and then
I like woke up and ran somewhere and I wasn't
thinking about it. My like skirt fell down and all
the like. They weren't like the cool punks. They were
like the kind of scary punks or whatever. They saw it,
and they were like, yeah, all right whatever, And I
was like, oh right, folks who live on the edge
of society don't give a shit about stuff like this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's really funny. How like like you said,
how like gender is this like constantly moving target and
all of that. Yeah, because like, yeah, that is something
that I'm still feeling, because like for me, it was
like I remember being young and like like feeling some
way about gender but not really having like the vocabulary
to describe it. I remember like learning what a lesbian
(35:33):
was and like feeling like, wow, that resonates with me
for some reason. I guess I'm like a lesbian and
the body of a young boy. And then I proceeded
to not think about that for fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And then like when I was in high school, I
started to like develop like attractions to like the boys
my age, and I was like, oh, oh, so I'm gay. Okay,
I guess that makes sense. And then I ran with
that until I was in college, and then my freshman
year I had this way I can only describe as
a dysphoric breakdown in front of the mirror, okay. And
then that got me like being like, okay, what is
(36:01):
this gender stuff? Because stuff is happening. Then I learned
like about the gender fluid kind of label and non
binary and just how it's not necessarily like this purely
defined like man or woman kind of thing, and how
that was like a thing, and I was like, Okay,
I'm probably somewhere in that camp. I guess like we'll
go with like queer ish and then I didn't really
(36:23):
do anything beyond that. I had like done some research
into like do I want to transition? Do I not
want to transition? And like at the time, I was
like I don't think this is for me, at least
not right now. Yeah, and then I ran with that
of like, yeah, I'm this queer person who's very like
male presenting and all of that, and then the pandemic
of twenty twenty happened, and I had all of this
(36:44):
free time to actually think about like things in life
and like being like, huh, when faced with the very
real prospect of my own mortality, am I like any regrets?
And I was like kind of wish I had explored
gender a little more, and you know, maybe like dipped
my toes and so like I don't know, like what's
HRT about. And then I remember like having those thoughts,
(37:07):
and I was like, oh, son of a bitch, Okay,
I guess I have to do the thing I've been
avoiding doing. I guess I have to do the thing
that I've been avoiding thinking about for a while. And
so I got a therapist and like talked things out,
and like we both very quickly like came to the
consensus of like yeah, you're trans yeah, and I was
able to start HRT hell yeah. But like, yeah, it's
(37:30):
really funny because like I remember starting like HRT and
like I was very much like playing with like they
then she heard she they, I was she they for
a while, and then I kept getting consistently they themmed
only and so I was like Okay. I think a
(37:50):
lot of this was from like the the cist people
in my life who I love dearly. Yeah, I like
love you all and like, believe me, I was happy
that y'all were so to practice theay them because that's
hard for SIS people.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Right, totally.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
But it eventually got to the point where I was like,
all right, y'all are constantly they theming me and never
she she hurrang me, So y'all have lost your day
them rights and so and so I was like strictly
she her for a couple of years after that, and
then it's only recently that I have gone back to
she they because I was like, Okay, this feels more accurate.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And another weird thing that I noticed was like, while
while transitioning and like allowing myself to like have these
thoughts and things, was that I realized that I didn't
suddenly go from the gay man that I thought I
was to the straight girl m hm. And like I started,
I started to realize I had like sapphic feelings for
some women, and I was like, oh, oh, we're by yeah,
(38:47):
son of a bitch.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
So over the years, I've resonated with pretty much all
the letters. Yeah, and I've won a cuer bingo. It's like,
I don't know what I win other than bragging rights,
I say, your quote, but like a combination of oppression
points and regular oppression.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
All this is to say is just that, like, yeah,
gender is funny. Gender and sexuality are weird and cool,
and you know, yeah, it's not always this super defined thing.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I really resonate with what you're saying about. Like, for me,
the decision to come out in twenty sixteen was that
a transoitman I knew died in the ghost Ship fire
in Oakland, which was a DIY space that burned down,
and I believe the end of twenty sixteen, and it
was like right before my birthday, and I was just
like and it's awful and selfish, but you know, I
(39:36):
was like, oh, what if I died? Right, So it's
the same thing. It's like staring at your mortality and
you're like, well, I don't want to be remembered so
completely incorrectly, you know, I like just don't want to
be like just like imagining in my own tombstone with
like the wrong name on it, you know, And you're
just like, yeah, it's hard and it's hard to imagine that,
(39:58):
and so that was like, yeah, that was a lot
of what made it feel necessary for me to come out.
And it's interesting because in this book, you know, the protagonist,
not to spoil anything, the protagonist is like, you know,
questioning her feelings around gender and like explores it in
a lot of different ways. And one of the things
I really liked about getting to do this is that
(40:19):
getting to explore gender in a world that just isn't ours,
Like this isn't like, no one's going to come up
in this book spoiler, and no one's going to be like, Hi,
I'm she they you know, even though I'm a she
the it was written by SHEI the right. But like,
but since gender is a social construct, it's going to
(40:40):
be constructed differently in a like medieval fantasy setting, and
that's like one of the things that I really want
to explore with it, and I hope that folks are
able to kind of get out of it.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm so looking forward to reading
the next installment in the series because just to watch
how more things develop with this story. And like, certain
again I won't give spoilers, but yeah, certain relationships and
friendships and dynamics that developed in this first book, and
(41:11):
see how they continue to develop and grow.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, and if folks want to hear what the book is,
you could listen to it. And if you're like, I
hate to say, it's like, it's obviously a book about
a transgirl, but it is not primarily a book about gender.
It is primarily a book about why I like spears.
It is primarily a book that is a you know,
(41:34):
high fantasy ya about I mean, honestly, the big metaphor
that is in this if you listen to my history podcast,
you'll understand that I'm obsessed with like the enclosure of
the commons and taking things that are like wild and
communal and putting them into the hands of only a
few people in a specialized way. And they like how
that's empowered capitalism and all those things. Like that's actually
(41:54):
the the plot, right, The character and the identity of
the character is that she is transfeminine. The plot of
the book is these trees that are dying and what
is to be done about it. So if you're like, well,
if you hate gender stuff, you're not gonna like this book.
But if you're like not specifically looking for a gender book.
It doesn't matter. This isn't specifically a gender book. It
(42:16):
just happens to be right that as well. It just
happens to have a transfemine protagonist. Yeah, and like other
queer people in it too, but it's never At least,
the way it read to me was like it seemed
perfectly natural. It didn't feel like, I know, there are
folks out there who say that we're constantly like shoving
it down their throat or whatever, and I mean, I
can speak for myself here, but like that's not at
(42:38):
all how the text came across to me. But if
you're listening to this and you would like to start
a campaign against this book, all publicity is free publicity,
and so I will pretend that it's a gender book
if I don't know if I actually feel that way,
because like part of me is like ha ha ha
if I got a list of banned books, like, imagine
(42:59):
what they'll do for my career, And then I'm like,
it also just sucks because I actually want this book
to be available to kids to read.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
The thing, like, yes, yes, that would definitely get more
eyes on it. And also I I mean listen, Like,
I think queer stories are really important, and especially like
stories like this, Like they're always important, but I feel
like now, especially yeah, in our current political climate and
day and age and all of the scariness that has
(43:28):
been sort of centered around queer and trans people in particular,
I think this story is like super important and I
think people should read it. I know that, like, at
least again speaking for myself, if I had gotten to
read this book as a kid, my life would have
been very different, yeah, and like positive, Yeah, my life
(43:48):
would have been really different and I would have figured
stuff out a lot sooner.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
That was a big part of it, as I was like,
I want to write the book that I want to
give to twelve year old me.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
You know yeah, yeah yeah, all.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Right, Well, I think we're kind of out of time,
but thanks for joining us on coolsone Media book Club.
The book is called The Saplink Cage. It comes out
September twenty fourth, twenty twenty four, from Feminist Press, and
you all should listen to the audiobook. Do you have
anything else do you want to plug? You have like
other books that you're like, go out and listen to
this other book I did or what else you've been
working on.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Oh God, if you want to hear another story like
narrating like a transperson's perspective, if you listen to five
part Invention by Andrea J. Buchanan. I got to work
with four other extremely talented narrators on that, and it's
a heavy story. It deals with like generational trauma, but
it's very, very well crafted. And I thought that Zoe's
(44:42):
part of it in particular, which is the character that
I got to read for, was especially handled with care
and that was really well done. Another transfer, I recently
got to read the autobiography of Philip, a writer who
is this really badass trans writes activist in Ireland, and
that was really cool.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
That sounds cool.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Other than that, if you're more of like the superhero
kind of stuff, I've read several Spider Man books as well,
so you'll check those out.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I mean, there's secretly trans people in the Spider Man world.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, whoops. But I've done a lot of different stuff,
but I guess those were some of the standouts for me. Okay,
so I didn't have anything more eloquent to plug or
to say.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Oh no, you warn me ahead of time that you're
not an improvisor. You work from scripts then I and
then I asked you questions that I didn't warn you
I was going to ask.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So sorry, it happens, but I encourage everybody to check
out more of that quality queer literature.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Hell yeah. And if you want to see the two
of us together in person, us even meeting in person
for the first time. Yes, on October fifteenth at the
ann Arbor District Library at the downtown location at six
thirty pm. I'm going to be on tour with the
Sapling Cage and it's going to be sweet because instead
of me I'm going to do a reading, I'm going
to make Jackie do it six thirty pm, Octoveber fifteenth,
(46:00):
the ann Arbor District Library and its downtown location.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Hell yeah, I'm so looking forward to that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
All right, I'll talk to everyone next week. Have a
good week.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen Here.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com Slash Sources thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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