March 24, 2026 • 48 mins
Strap on your sword and grab your ocarina, because today we're celebrating the 40th anniversary of The Legend of Zelda! Join Mango and Gabe as they uncover the secrets of Nintendo's landmark fantasy series, including the real-world inspirations and technical breakthroughs that helped bring the games to life. Plus: The inspiring story of a nonagenarian Zelda fan, and the reason why Link is so darn handsome.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mango, What's that give? The original Legend of
Zelda game launched in Japan in nineteen eighty six, which
means this year marks the fortieth anniversary.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Of the series.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So if you think about it, Link, the main character,
he's officially over the hill.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Which is super weird to think about because he looks
so young in the games. And plus he's like running
everywhere on that map and climbing mountains and swinging a
heavy sword. It feels it feels weird to think that
he and I are fairly close to thee Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I mean, he really needs to start pacing himself, right,
I mean, especially when you consider that Link was meant
to be about twelve years old in that first game,
so if the character really did age in real time,
he'd actually be in his fifties by now.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Oh wow. I do think Nintendo made the right call
keeping him more or less the same age, because I
don't think I'd really want to play him as a
geriatric But I mean, that is really fun to think about.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, one of my favorite things I found out this
week is that the series. Creator of gaming legend Shagiro Miyamoto,
he never wanted Link to age to adulthood. He thought
the character worked best as you know, a playful, childish boy,
and that, as he put it, quote, if we made
him too cool, he wouldn't be Link anymore. But you
(01:43):
know that philosophy. It began to change in the mid
nineteen nineties when Nintendo started development on the Legend of
Zelda Ocarina of Time, which was the first entry in
the series to feature three D graphics. The game's director,
Yoshiaka Koizumi, he decided to give Link a slightly older
look that time around, not so much because of the
move to three D, but because his wife didn't think
(02:06):
Nintendo characters were handsome enough.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I mean, maybe she's not a mustache fan, because Mario
and Luigi are you know, total hanks, and everyone knows it.
You've got Kirby Donkey Kong Starfus. I mean, Nintendo games
are like stunt Central, right, I mean.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir, but you know, nonetheless, Koiyazumi,
he took the feedback seriously and purposely redesigned Link to
be more good looking. However, you know, as a compromise
to Miyamoto the gameplay and Ocarina of Time actually included
both versions of the character, Young Link and adult Link.
(02:45):
Who's you know still only meant to be about sixteen
or seventeen, And from that point on, all the games
in the series have featured Link in one of those
two age ranges, between ten and twelve or sixteen and
eighteen the teenage heart throb version of Link. He's become
the norm for most three D Zelda games, and thankfully
Miamoto seems to have made peace with that. When Ocarina
(03:07):
of Time was remade for the three DS and twenty eleven,
he said, quote, the graphics are even better this time,
so Link is even more handsome, just the way Zuni
Son's wife likes him.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I love that the series was adjusted to make room
for all these different interpretations of the character, and it
shows just how adaptable this core premise of the game is,
and I imagine that's why it's still going strong like
after all these years. But in honor of the series
forty birthday, today's episode is a deep dive into the
legend of Zelda, how it came to be, what makes
(03:43):
it so special and why it just might be the
perfect video game, and because it's dangerous to go alone,
we are bringing a few friends and fellow Zelda fans
along for the journey, so let's dive in. Hey, their
(04:16):
podcast listeners, welcome to part time Genius. I'm Mongi's articular,
and because Will would rather play outside than play video games,
which is a true statement, I have joined instead by
my good pal Gabe Lucier. And over there in the
booth sporting a familiar green hat and tunic, that is
our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. He is clearly going
(04:37):
for a link homage, and the likeness is downright uncanny,
except I don't know why he's waving a bunch of
Indian rookies around, because last time I checked, the Kingdom
of High Rule wasn't on the subcontinent.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I mean, it'd be cool if it was, But you know,
I think the main reason is that hr nicks to
him bringing a sword to work. But you know, also,
the in game currency in Zelda games is call rupees,
and it's even spelled the same. That's so weird, I know, right,
But Zelda rupees are gemstones, you know, not paper money,
so they're a little different than and yeah, the game's
clearly not said in India. Honestly though, I can relate
(05:13):
to Dylan's confusion. I played the early games as a kid,
and I remember asking my older brother if rupees were
a real thing, and he was like, yeah, that's the
currency of India. So you know, for the next few years,
I thought everyone in India carried around pouches of like
little green and purple gemstones like in Zelda, and I
was pretty heartbroken when I learned the truth.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
To be fair, it is strange that Nintendo chose rupees
instead of just like using generic gold is the currency,
which it is in like other fantasy games, right, But
it's such a specific thing they chose. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, that's what I thought too, and so when I
looked into it, you know, According to Miamoto, the connection
to the Indian rupee was completely unintentional. He thought it
would be more interesting and distinct from other games like
Mario to have the player collect gem stones instead of coins,
and that led him to the word rubies. But since
the gemstones in the game weren't always read, he called
(06:08):
them rubies, not knowing that the name was already taken
by a real life currency.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That's so funny and weird, and I guess they just
stuck with it ever since, just because I don't know,
because they wanted to. It feels like a point of
confusion for people.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, well, what about you, Like, did that ever trip
you up as a kid?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
You know, I don't remember. I mean, I do remember
being confused when I found out Zelda wasn't the main character,
you know, like despite being right there at the title.
One of my friends called him Link, and I was like,
Who's Link, you know? And the truth is, we were
late to get Nintendo, so I only knew about it
through this osmosis and stuff, and so like we would
(06:47):
like pretend play Zelda. We play all these games like
out in the real world, and then I'd go over
their house and play video games. But I was like
a year behind or two years behind in terms of
when we actually got an NES.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of a write
of passage anyway, mixing up Link for Zelda.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Actually, just speaking of the NES for a second, I
remember hinting very very strongly to my parents that I
wanted a Nintendo system, and I saw this Nintendo shaped
box under the Christmas tree, and I just thought like,
oh my gosh, my prayers have been answered. I did
all the right legwork with my parents and whatever, and
(07:26):
then I opened it up on Christmas. It was like
exactly the same size. It was a chemistry cell.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Brutal. So you relate to the NES party a little bit.
But was the original Zelda? Was that still your entry point,
you know to the series?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah? I remember my friend Chris Sammus down the block
did get an NES and I got totally hooked playing
Mario at his house, and then Zelda came out and
we used to go to my friend's Jeff and Kristen's
house and we would play it there and it just
blew my mind. It was so different from like any
other type of game at the time. The way you
moved around the screen, the like fact you could continue
(08:03):
a game from where you left off, which just wasn't
a thing earlier, and the whole fantasy bit.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
We had a PC, so I played like King's Quest
and stuff like that, and we were obsessed with that
as well. But Zelda was just like so fresh, and
like I said earlier, like we used to we had
these beautiful woods behind our house and with a creek,
and we would go sort of enact the video games
out there.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh yes, okay, so this was like right up your alley.
You were right in the pocket for Zelda.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah. I mean it was kind of like the digital
version of what we were doing in real life anyway.
You know, like playing all these imaginary games out there.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, right, imagination is key there, right, because you probably
weren't running into a lot of moblins in the woods
behind your house.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
No, But you know, fantasy stories and choose your own
adventure stories were big at that time, and I don't know,
like all of that was just a way to especially
like we had long rides on the bus to school,
and so you were like coming up with a video
game as a story for a friend and they would
have to choose between two doors or like you know,
(09:06):
neat a big boss or that type of thing. It
really sort of fed our imagination. But I'm curious for you,
you're obviously younger than me. Did it have like a
similar effect on you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, for sure. I mean that first game. In that
first game, you know, the player really calls the shots,
and you know that isn't true to the same extent
and a lot of the later Zelda games there's a
lot more kind of handholding and sign posting to kind
of steer the player in the right direction. But in
that first one, you're really on your own, and you know,
it was kind of strangely empowering as a kid. And
(09:35):
in fact, I talked to games journalist John Cartwright from
Good Vibes Gaming it's one of my favorite YouTube channels.
To check it out if you haven't, and he said
that that free wheeling sense of exploration is why that
first game still feels so fresh all these years later.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
The cool thing about Zelder is I think almost every
cool game kind of inspires the next league of game design.
So you go back to Zelda one, which which plays
very differently toward the Zelda games because it just throws
you into the world and doesn't really give you an objective.
You just explore, You find the dungeons yourselves, you can
do them in any order. And so because Zelda doesn't
(10:12):
play like that anymore, it's actually really timeless because it's
not being replaced, it's not being iterated on, really, and
it's still really fun.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
You know. Timeless is such a great way to put
it because the main themes of that game are kind
of exploration and discovery, and it's not like those things
ever stop being appealing. And like I was saying, Zelda
really did echo the kinds of scenarios we were playing
out as kids in my neighborhood. But it wasn't until
decades later that I learned that that was actually by design.
(10:42):
The whole game was inspired by Miamoto's childhood memories from
the nineteen fifties and sixties. He actually grew up in
a small rural town called Sonobe, It's just outside Kyoto,
and he spent much of his time exploring the surrounding countryside.
And you know, he would wander through forests and track
through mountains and go spelunking, and sometimes he'd even come
(11:03):
across an old forgotten shrine or like a little dirt
pathway that might lead to a hidden village, which.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Is so awesome. Like the coolest thing I ever found
in the woods behind my house were like these old
glass soda bottles, and they felt so cool at the
time that I would have gladly traded him, like in
a heartbeat, for a moss covered shrine.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Way better. Yeah, I imagine they're not quite as plentiful
as southern Caroland, and certainly not in in northern Delaware,
where I'm from. But you know, as you'd expect, those
early life adventures really stuck with Miyamoto, and two decades later,
when he was looking to create a new game for
the Famicon this system, he decided to make one that
(11:45):
captured that same sense of thrill and wonder that he
had felt as a young explorer. He was very explicit
about that goal in this twenty eleven interview. He said, quote,
I wanted to recreate the places I played in as
a child, but create more streamlined and connected versions of them,
to create a boxed garden.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, so just like you were saying, a digital version
of a real life adventure.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, exactly. But make a game like that turned out
to be easier said than done, thanks to all the
technical constraints at the time. So why don't we take
a quick break, and when we come back, I'll tell
you how Miamoto and his team actually pulled it off.
(12:36):
Welcome back to Part Time Genius and our perilous journey
through the Kingdom of High Rule. Okay, Gabe, so I
was saying before the break, recreating the huge open spaces
that Miyamoto had explored as a child was really quite
a tall order for the technology of the early eighties.
Nintendo's then current hardware was the eight bit cartridge based
(12:57):
Famicon or Family Computer. The same system was later released
in the US as the nes or Nintendo Entertainment System,
and Miamoto knew that the console wouldn't be up to
the challenge on its own. Luckily, though, the company was
preparing to release a new add on accessory for the console,
the Famicon Disc System, and this was capable of reading
(13:17):
floppy discs. The device allowed designers to create sort of
bigger and longer games than those that could fit on
a standard cartridge, and this meant they could program more
enemies and items and bosses, more complex behaviors, and also
more beautiful backgrounds. Right, And most importantly for Miyamoto, it
meant that you could create these larger game worlds. Right.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And that's also what allowed them to add the save
function you mentioned earlier, right, because you know, cartridge games
they only had those clunky password systems.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's even it's hard to think back about, right,
like how much this stuff has evolved. But if you
want to continue a game from where you left off,
you had to write down this long, complicated password. You
also have to make sure you didn't lose it right then,
and then slowly type it all in again. It really
was like this massive hassle. But with the dis system,
the disc memory could actually be rewritten in real time,
(14:11):
which allowed players to save their progress and pick it
up later, and you didn't need a password. The Legend
of Zelda was the first console game to implement that
kind of save function, but other developers took notice and
the feature quickly became industry standard.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It makes so much sense that that Zelda was the
starting point for that, Like it doesn't have traditional levels
that you play in a set order, and the game
map was so much bigger than other titles. There was
no way the average player was gonna, you know, explore
all that in one sitting.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah. And actually, during initial development, Mimoto built a two
player prototype of the game that was entirely focused on
level creation, so one player would craft their own sprawling
maze or dungeon, and once it was finished, a second
player could actually explore their friend's creation. This save function
would have been crucial there as well. You know or else,
(15:03):
all that hard work that would just get erased, right
like when you turned off the system.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, and you know, I didn't know Zelda started out
as a level creator. That's pretty wild, Like, it feels
very ambitious for the time. I wonder why they scrapped it, though.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think Miyamoto just realized that the exploration was the
most fun part, so he shifted focus and started building
an expansive world for players to journey through, rather than
making them design these games on their own right. And
the new approach made the game much more engaging, but
it also called for more narrativelopments than Miyamoto had first envisioned,
(15:37):
because with that sort of level creator game, the goal
had been to just reach the end of the maze.
But now that players were sort of being set loose
on this giant map, they need more context and more
direction and a reason to explore all the different parts
of it. So to help fill in those details, Mimoto
teamed up with the co director and writer. His name's
(15:57):
Takashi Tezuka, and to get the pair came up with
this fairytale like story. It was inspired by medieval folklore
fantasy novels, kind of like the Lure of the Rings,
and the protagonist, as we all know, is this young
swordsman named Link who must embark on an epic quest
through this treacherous kingdom of High Rule. His goal is
(16:19):
to repair a powerful sacred relic called the Triforce of
Wisdom and rescue the titular Princess Zelda. Of course, she's
been held in the clutches of the series. Is evil
archvillain Gannon.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Oh sure, yeah, a tale is old as time. But
you know, I do wonder how many kids back then
were even aware of the game's story, Like, aside from
a little blurb in the title screen, the plot was
it was really only spelled out in the manual, So
if you just booted up the game without reading it
like I did, you wouldn't really know who was who
(16:52):
or like what the story was.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, which is again probably why we all thought Link's
name was Zelda, right, Like, none of us were reading
the man in and then excited exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I mean, you know, to be fair, Nintendo kind of
set us all up to fail on that one. Like
in pac Man, you play as pac Man. In Mario
you play as Mario, so naturally, in the legend of Zelda.
You expect to play a Zelda, but no, and then
to really mess with all of us. You know, the
game starts by having you enter your name, and I
(17:24):
distinctly remember putting Zelda because I thought that's the character's name,
and when I found out he was actually called Link,
I had to start over, you know, with a new
save file. I couldn't handle it.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, well, I mean I don't know that you had to,
but I just said that now, since we're back on
the subject. For anyone wondering where the name Zelda came from,
it's actually a reference to Zelda Fitzgerald, the famous novelist
in Panter, who was also the wife of f Scott Fitzgerald. Apparently,
Miamoto and his team weren't that familiar with her life
(17:56):
or her work, but they like the sound of her
name and they thought it would add this sort of
regal error to the title. The character of Zelda doesn't
have a lot to do in the original game. She's
basically just, you know, this cliche damsel in distress, but
she does become a bigger part of the story and
takes more of an active role in later games. So
it's safe to say she's earned her a spot in
(18:17):
the title.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah. Plus, you know, the legend of Link really doesn't
have the same ring to it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I mean, I do like the rationale of calling the
protagonist Link though, because Miamoto said he chose the name
because the character is the point of connection or the
link between the player and this game world. So in
some sense, that's supposed to be us on the screen
or our digital alter ego going on this grand adventure.
I even found this, like great interview from nineteen eighty
(18:47):
nine here, let me pull it up, and Miamoto spells
it out, saying, quote, I want to create a game
world that conveyed the same feeling you get when you
are exploring a new city for the first time. How
fun would it be? I thought if I could make
the player identify with the main character in the game
and get completely lost and immersed in that world.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
It's kind of amazing how cleanly they hit that mark,
like right out of the gate, and we're then able
to carry that forward to other entries, because everyone I
talked to says that, Yeah, like they really did identify
with the little elf guy on the screen. In fact,
listen to how John Cartwright describes it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think it's the same thing for Spider Man, like
anyone can wear that mask, and a lot of the
time of Link, because it's in third person in three
D games, you'll see in the back of his head
it's just that green tunic cat and like that could
be me, Yeah, that could be anybody.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So another thing John mentioned is that Nintendo protagonists tend
to be blank slates for players to project themselves onto,
which is one reason why there's so little dialogue in
their games. And that's especially the case with Link. He's
very archetypal. His personality isn't well defined, and that that
makes it easier for the player to imagine themselves in
(20:02):
his shoes. And it was the same thing with you know,
typing your name at the start of the game. I mean,
I did the boring thing and entered Link's name, but
you know, the option to put your own name, it
was really an invitation to claim the story for yourself
and to say, you know, this is my adventure.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Looking back, it really did feel like an epic adventure
as a kid, right, Like you had to Guidelink across
all these different landscapes, deserts, forest cemeteries and fight a
bunch of weird monsters. Plus you had to keep an
eye out for secret pathways and hidden items, and there
was just this enormous sense of scale to the game,
and that was further heightened by its unique top down perspective,
(20:40):
which gave the player a bird's eye view of High Rule.
You know, the apic graphics may look pretty bare bones
by today's standards, but that original game world still feels
really expansive and awfully immersive to me even now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, the art style was a real master class in
accomplishing a lot with a little and the same goes
for the game's music, which was all done by Nintendo's
in house composer Kogikondo. I actually talked to another YouTuber.
His real name is Dave, but he goes by killer
Karp on his channel, and he has an amazing collection
(21:17):
of vintage Nintendo toys and he's an avid retro gamer,
and he told me that the look and sound of
the original Zelda are what really hooked him on the series.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
It's a beautiful hodgepodge of like Greek mythology and the
amazing minds of Japanese artists. I was obsessed as a kid,
with all the weapons and items that you could get
throughout the game. I just remember looking in the books
and the game guides and Nintendo Powers and just drawing
the meat on the bone and the blue potion and
(21:50):
the red potion, all the different swords, all the different
things that you could get and a crew throughout the game.
But from a bigger scope of lore and what makes
it stand out. It's tough to put your finger on
it because it kind of borrows from so many things,
and the soup just becomes Zelda in its own unique way.
The music is a huge part of it. That opening
screen with the waterfall and the pink sky and the
(22:12):
music coming on, you get chills.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know. Nintendo was so smart to make the music
go that hard because you wander around a lot in
this game, so you get so familiar with that theme song.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, it's true, and so much of that game's challenge
is just figuring out where to go and what to do.
I still get lost and I've been playing it for decades.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, so apparently the original map was no joke. It
had one hundred and twenty eight connected screens to get
lost in, plus those underground dungeons which were their own
separate mazes of rooms and boss fights. Like if you
knew all the tricks and secrets, or if you actually
use the map that came with a manual, then you
could beat the game in like an hour. But for
(22:57):
first timers it could easily take ten hours or more,
which you know is actually a long time for a
game of that era.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, well you think ten hours is rough. Killer Karp
told me he was so stumped as a kid that
he set the game aside for a full ten years
before he finally felt ready to finish it.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Once I was old enough to actually play the game
in the late eighties, couldn't get very far. And then
it was in my high school years when I really
dug in and actually beat the game. And I was
a freshman in high school with my best friend Ryan,
and I remember it clearly. We beat it on May fifteenth,
and from that day forward we called that day Zelda Day.
That was the day we got all the try force
(23:35):
and defeated Gannon and restored Light to High Rule and
save Princes Zelda. We did not have any players, guides
or maps. We kind of just had to go through
the game, burn every bush, move every rock, and it
took a long long time to get through.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I mean the fact that he remember the exact date
tells you how big a deal it was to beat
this game. Like, it really doesn't matter how old you are.
If you roll credits without using a guide, then you've
earned yourself some serious bragging rights, right Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Which is kind of wild when you think about it. Like,
adult players were not a huge part of the video
game market back then like they are today. Kids were
the target audience for the original Zelda, and the developers
did not go easy on them.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah. I actually read that during pre release testing a
lot of players got lost in the dungeons and were
annoyed by the lack of sort of this like clear
cut objective. But Miyamoto stood his ground, and he really
refused to water down the difficulty. He believed that the
non linear aspects of the game actually encouraged players to
work together and share tips and made it more like
(24:40):
community oriented in a way.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, which is you know exactly what happened for Killer
Karp and his buddy Ryan.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean, Miyamoto really like sort of planned for this,
But that's not to say he was completely confident in
the game at the time. Star Wars, you know, had
made a huge splash, and science fiction was all the
rage and pop culture, and Miamoto really worried that kids
wouldn't connect with this like fantasy setting of Zelda, and
he later reflected, quote, a world of swords in magic
(25:07):
really wasn't considered mainstream at the time. I really didn't
expect the response I got.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Which was what exactly like. Because it's a fan favorite
today obviously, but how did folks feel about it at launch?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, the Famicon disc system was a flop and never
actually released outside of Japan, but the legend of Zelda
was this completely different story. It was by far the
system's strongest seller when it launched in Japan on February
twenty first, nineteen eighty six. The game was then re
released for the regular Fabicon a year later, thanks to
a new kind of cartridge that had a stronger memory
(25:40):
chip and battery powered RAM. The American version of the
game was released about six months later, in August of
nineteen eighty seven, and as I'm sure you remember, our
version sport an eye catching gold colored cartridge which you
know stood out from the rest of the standard gray ones.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, that gold was your first col that
this game was truly something special. It doesn't get much
more iconic than that cartridge. And those babies, let me
tell you, they still shine like the sun at yard sales.
You can see them from a mile away.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Well, I mean, I guess that like marketing and that
premium presentation actually paid off, because Legend of Zelda went
on to sell more than seven million copies worldwide, and
while many of its players did experience frustration of like
getting lost on those world maps, they also discovered the
satisfaction of finding their way, you know, eventually.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Right, And that's maybe the craziest thing about that first game,
and really most games in the Zelda series, even if
you never fully finish it, you still have a great
time playing and the experience sticks with you because you know,
the game design is just that strong.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You know. I've definitely started more Zelda games than I
finished in my lifetime. But when the next one rolls around, like,
I'm always back on board, and I love that It's
become a thing that like my son loves.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, it really speaks to the quality of the series.
Every few years you see those listicles come out right.
Top ten video Games of all time or whatever, and
it is almost always a legend of Zelda game in
the top spot. Like the winning game changes over time,
as you know, new entries come to the forefront, but
the series as a whole is ranked the best pretty consistently.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it's one of the few things that video game
fans seem to agree on, and after we take a
quick break, we're going to try to pin down exactly
why that is. So stay tuned, Welcome back to part
(27:44):
time genius, Okay Gabe. So far, we've talked mostly about
the first game in the Zelda series, which is known
in Japan as Zelda no den Setsu The High Rule
of Fantasy. It was popular enough to spawn dozens of
sequels and spin offs over the past forty years, and
many of those games are now just as beloved, if
not more so, than the original. So I'm curious, what
(28:07):
do you think has kept the series going so strong
for all this time? Like, what is that secret? Sauce?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Honestly, I racked my brain trying to figure that out,
and aside from the humbling work ethic of Japanese game designers,
it's hard to land on a single satisfying answer. But
that said, I do think John Cartwright came pretty darn
close to cracking it.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
There were all games where you start from very small nothingness,
like you're just a guy in a house and you
end up being the person responsible for saving the world.
But what really makes it different, I'd say, is the
vibe to it all the atmosphere and the way the
characters talk to you. It never feels that dark. There's
always like a hopefulness to Zelder, which keeps it feeling
fun rather than daunting a lot of the time, and
(28:52):
that's remained consistent through every single game. There's always this
quirkiness to the characters. There's also this familiarity towards them
because most of them use different links and different Zeldas
and different versions of Hiral, but you recognize things that
you recognize Kakariko Village, you recognize the Great Decutree, so
it kind of feels like you're coming home every time,
even if the context of it was always like completely
(29:14):
different there.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So there's three things John hits on there, relatability, familiarity,
and freshness. So the first one is what we've been
talking about all day, the longing for adventure, the freedom
of exploring outside the feeling of being just a guy
in a house. Those are experiences we can all relate to,
and the idea of familiarity and the feeling of coming home,
(29:38):
that's a key component of Miyamoto's design philosophy. I found
an interview he did in nineteen ninety one for the
release of the third game in the series, the Legend
of Zelda, a Link to the Past, and the interviewer
asks if there's a limit to the ideas that can
be implemented in a video game, and Miamoto responds, quote,
it's a game designer's job to figure out how to compile, file,
(30:00):
and program ideas from the real world into a video game.
I think the ability to collect and organize is even
more important to making games than the power of imagination
and creativity. It's all about selecting, amplifying, and organizing those ideas.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I kind of get what he means, because even though
Zelda is a fantasy series, the whole game world really
isn't that different from ours. Right aside from the monsters,
the settings are like familiar landscapes. You've got like fields
and mountains, deserts. The physics are the same, Even things
like how cracked walls are easier to break than solid ones,
or how you can cut the grass with your sword
(30:39):
and later games, there's a fidelity between our world and
links world that I think is really satisfying, Like things
work the way you'd expect them to.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, exactly, and that translation of real world inspiration into
the digital world that exists really in every facet of
the series, even when we aren't fully aware of it.
For instance, and when the series made the jump to
three D and the Ocarina of Time, the developers had
to figure out a way to handle combat in a
three dimensional space. So ha, if Link was attacked by
(31:10):
multiple enemies at once, it was hard for the player
to like position the camera so they could focus their
strikes on, you know, a single opponent. So the team
came up with what they called Z targeting. It was
this really ingenious system. When the player presses the Z button,
the viewpoint would automatically shift to a view from directly
behind Link, allowing him to kind of lock on to
(31:32):
specific enemies and you know, attack them systematically. But that mechanic,
it wasn't something they pulled out of thin air. The
game's directors went to see a sword fighting demonstration at
a local theme park in Japan, and they paid close
attention to the combatants' movements, and they noticed that when
one person was fighting against many, his opponents would attack
(31:53):
in order, one at a time. That same day, they
also watched a kusurigami demonstration, which is a a weapon
composed of like a sickle attached to a chain, and
that gave them the idea of establishing this invisible chain
between Link and his enemies. So when you use Z targeting,
you would move in an arc around the opponent that
(32:14):
you've locked onto, like that chain is stretched between you,
and that would allow you to kind of find the
best angle from which to deal a blow.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's pretty fascinating because of course, the average player isn't
going to make that connection between Link's movements and some
sort of like traditional samurai stage show. But there's something
about the system that still feels intuitive and correct because
it's ultimately rooted in these real world techniques.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, and you know, Nintendo had been incorporating real world
ideas into the series like that pretty much since the
first game, but ak Aina really ratcheted up the approach
because you know, of the three D visuals, for example,
I read this interview with Miyamoto from twenty eleven where
he talks about trying to bring chicken flying into the
three D games. But chicken flying, all right, yeah, well,
(33:02):
well cucko flying if you want to get technical, right,
Chickens and Zelda are called cuckos. But uh yeah, there
was this unused mechanic from a link to the past
on the Super Nintendo where you were supposed to be
able to grab a chicken, jump off a ledge and
kind of like flutterfly to the ground. It wound up
being cut, you know, but the team later revived it
(33:22):
for Ocarina. They had that much faith in it, and
you know, as Miyamoto explained, quote, I thought chicken flying
would be weird if the graphics were more realistic. But
when we made it, I was happy to see that
it fit perfectly. I realized that those kinds of things
are more fun in a three D space, So all
of a sudden, I said, let's make the landforms more
(33:44):
three dimensional. I started referencing villages and mountainous districts in China,
such as you might see in a documentary. I was saying, see,
there are all kinds of villages and can't we make
a more distinctive village And just then it connected perfectly
to the chickens.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I love that, and I'm also not sure I completely
understand it, but it's such a small, silly thing, But
I love how he's so inspired by the chicken flying
that it improves the way the landscapes look. There's something
really like fun about that whole statement and the way
he views the world.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Absolutely, And it's also a really clear example of what
Miamoto calls hospitality in game design.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So the idea is that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
You try to anticipate all the little things that the
player will want to do, and you know that they'd
be disappointed if they couldn't do. And that includes things
like cutting the grass with your sword or jumping off
a slope while holding a chicken. None of it is
like strictly necessary. It doesn't affect the overall story or
the gameplay, but it adds a spark of joy, right
(34:49):
and satisfaction for the player, and it also makes the
game world feel that much more familiar and alive. It
feels like the kind of thing that leaves this like
wonderful lasting impression players because it shows the designers really
cared about crafting a good experience and were willing to
put the extra effort in to deliver, whether or not
the player realizes it.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Absolutely. John told me that Ocarina was his gateway Zelda game,
and a big reason that he fell for it so
hard was that care and attention to detail.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Growing up, I played a lot of games, but nothing
that was that high quality. And then one day I
played Okarno of Time and it changed my perspective and
what games were. This was around two thousand and four.
An Okernam of Time came out in ninety eight, so
six years old at that point, but it was still
just really far ahead of other games in terms of
scope and adventure. So even though the visuals weren't more
(35:42):
limited compared to what was out there, the pure design
language was timeless. Back on the PlayStation Sega Saturn N
sixty four, there weren't that many big three D adventure games.
Most of them tried to limit the scope because it
was very hard to make that kind of world. So
to go the extra mile to have all these strange
chemical reactions which wouldn't exist in other games was kind
(36:04):
of unheard of, and it's mad that they pulled it
off so well, But I think it's part of why
the game still feels so timeless overall these years, because
those elements are still quite rare today that even if
the visuals may look of their era, the field doesn't.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It is amazing that so many of these games still
hold their own no matter how much time goes by. Like,
they're all pretty similar in some regards, but because the
developers keep chasing innovation, there's always some like, you know,
special new hook or feature that makes each new entry unique. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It all goes back to that idea of freshness, So
no matter how familiar the series gets, there's always something
new to pull you in, whether it's three D visuals
or horse riding, or sailing between different islands or making
link more handsome. Players know that Nintendo doesn't rest on
its laurels, you know, when it comes to this series,
so there's always reason to get excited for each new entry.
(36:59):
It is a tricky balancing act, though, because you want
to preserve the feel of the series and you know,
all the aspects that longtime players have come to expect,
while also ensuring that the games remain accessible and never
feel too Samey and I think it's safe to say
that Breath of the Wild, for the switch, that was
really the high water mark in terms of striking that balance.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
When you look at all the Zelders through the years,
I'd say there's a couple of pivotal points. So the
first zeld is one of them. A Link to the
Pass is the next one, where it just really just
makes what the Zelda formula even is today. They're ockera
of time doing it in three D, and then there
was kind of a lull where they were very comfortable
making that kind of game for a while, like Operative Time,
Joy's Mask, which is a cool outlier, Win Wake a
(37:44):
Twilette Princess, Like they're great games, but they don't really
push the industry forward and took all the way until
Breath of the Wild, where finally it became a huge deal,
skyrocketedt what Zelda was all for the fact that it
just did something really different and new the first time
in maybe fifteen years at that point.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, So I definitely remember watching my son Henry play
it for the first time in like twenty seventeen and thinking,
this really is the promise of that original Zelda, and
it was so fully realized. That sense of like freedom
and exploration and all that stuff that felt novel in
the original game suddenly was elevated to like, I don't know,
like the million degree right. If you saw a mountain
(38:25):
in the distance, you could run and gallop and hang
glide your way to it and then climate to see
what was on the other side. And all those limitations
and restraints that you had from either like the graphics
or the discs or the memory or whatever, like, all
of that was completely lifted and you could go anywhere.
It really was pretty stunning to me. You know. One
(38:46):
of the keys to all of this is that the
laws of nature in the game actually aligned with real
world physics, and the items become less durable and break
over time, which I think is really fascinating. Metal objects
conduct electricity. You have a finite amount of stamina before
you get tired and you can't run or climb anymore.
I think, like what you were saying about before, right,
like the idea that this world behaves as you'd expect
(39:08):
it to, and because all these systems that are connected,
it really allows the player to experiment and come up
with their own solutions. You know, if you run out
of stamina while climbing that mountain, right, that really isn't
a problem. You can just set the grass on fire,
which creates an op draft of warm air, and then
pop open your paraglider and ride the current all the
(39:28):
way to the top. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It's just that easy. And you know, I like that
you describe Breath of the Wild as the fulfillment of
that original Zelda. That's actually exactly how Miamoto and the
team at Nintendo saw it too. In a twenty sixteen
interview promoting the game, Miamoto said, quote, back in the day,
the legend of Zelda was built upon the ideas of
great freedom of action and miniature gardens. As the series evolved,
(39:53):
we turned it more and more into a game with
a single path to follow. This pushed us to create
bigger and more complex dungeons and to design puzzles requiring
specific items, which led to very linear games. So we
decided to go back to the roots of the saga
and start developing the game we're showing you today, so
Breath of the Wild. It was kind of a return
(40:14):
to form for the series while still pushing it in
completely new directions. And then the team doubled down on
that open ended, physics based approach in the direct follow
up game, Tiers of the Kingdom. In that one, you
not only have all of high Rule to explore, you
can also build these like customized vehicles that let you
explore deep underground or like soar high above through this
(40:37):
like chain of floating islands. It's funny, right, because it
almost feels like too many options and too much for you,
Like do you know where to start? Yeah, I know
what you mean. But that's kind of the great thing
about it, Like there's no wrong or right answer. You
can progress through the game in any direction at any
speed you want, and you know, still have a great
time doing it. And while that's a very different approach
(40:58):
compared to other three D adventure games, which tend to
be much more linear, it's actually right in line with
Miamoto's vision of the series from the very beginning. A
few years after the first game was released, he told
an interviewer quote, I don't want to make games where
the player is just a puppet in the hands of
the creator, playing exactly as scripted. I want to present
(41:19):
games that are more like pure toys, something you can use,
explore and play with freely.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Which you know, mission accomplished. And really it is so
cool that he had that sort of clarity of vision
from the very start, and also that he's been able
to like pass it along to all these designers who've
taken the reins of the series. It is still amazing
to me that link is over the hill. But I'm
excited to see where he progresses over the next forty years,
(41:47):
and also to see whether you and I will still
be playing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, well, you know, I've got some great news on
that front. A couple months back, Killer Karp introduced the
world to a ninety one year old Zelda fan named
Jim who still plays the games every day. What Yeah,
her story it is like this beautiful reminder that this series,
this hobby, it doesn't have an age limit.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
So Jan is ninety one going on ninety two, and
she first got into gaming in the mid nineties when
her grandson was interested in playing. She had a five
year old grandson and he didn't have a way to game,
so he was staying with her. She took him to
Walmart and she bought him everything he needed. She bought
(42:32):
him the TV, she bought him the N sixty four
she bought him Mario and she bought him Okerina of Time,
and that was how they bonded. And when he wanted
to take everything home with him, she said, actually no.
She was hooked. And from that point forward she became
obsessed with video games, and not just video games, but
specifically Zelda. That was her favorite. That was the one
(42:55):
that stuck the most, and she has played every Zelda
game right up into the switch. I've always wondered if
I'll be you know that Grandpa playing Contra, And I
guess I can be and I will be. And I
think she gave a lot of people that feeling that
that they can gain as long as they want to
(43:15):
and no one can stop them, and there's no stigma
that can get in the way of doing what you love.
And I think that's really what resonated with a ton
of people. We can see ourselves someday being jam and
not being ashamed of it.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Oh, that is so heartwarming and I guess inspiring because
I feel like I want to play as geriatric link
when I am also jeriatic.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Well may we all be so lucky? All right?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Well, before we bring this journey to a close, do
you have any parting advice for listeners who may want
to dip their toes in the Zelda series. Right, there
are obviously tons of games out there now, and most
of them have a pretty high pedigree. So where would
you say is a good entree? Like? Where where should
people Stugh.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's a tough question, you know. The good news is that,
with very rare exceptions, these are self contained, standalone stories.
A couple of them do connect, but for the most
part you can just ignore all the fan theories about
timelines and just play them in any order you want.
After all, these are legends, right, so you know, there's
no definitive version of the story of Link saving High Rule.
(44:24):
They're all kind of iterations on the same basic theme,
so they're all valid. My personal favorite is probably Link's Awakening,
which was originally made for the Game Boy but was
then remade for the Switch a few years back. It's
kind of an oddball Zelda game because it doesn't actually
take place in High Rule, which is a rarity. But
it is charming and it has all the great Zelda hallmarks,
(44:46):
plus a very bizarre, very meta storyline. There's a twist
coming at the end that you won't see, so that
would probably be my pick. But you know that, said
our two guests today, they're really the experts here and
they both had some very strong feelings on this question,
so let's give them the last word.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
I can't imagine playing Zelda without having the foundation of
the original games, so I would say that you can't
move forward with Zelda without at least holding that gold
painted cartridge in your hands, and if you're able to
play it, and it's maybe too rudimentary for you, playing
(45:27):
to the past, I think that's the most timeless Zelda
game that we'll have, and the perfect representation of what
Zelda originally was meant to be and what it could
eventually become.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
I'd say, if you're interested in checking out Zelder, I
wouldn't worry too much about what people are saying is
the best one, because we have all started with a
different Zelda. We all have our favorites and they are
all excellent. Whatever you start with will probably be great.
I'd recommend a few like Ocarina or of the Wild
(46:00):
a link to the past, but it doesn't matter that much.
I think just forge your own adventure, don't look up guides,
don't try and find the best most efficient way to play.
Just take it as it is, and that's that's how
you find all the fun. It's just taking your own journey,
making it your own. Don't worry about what people tell
you to do.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
So that is great advice. And actually, I know this
is a little unorthodox, but what do you say we
give them today's trophy?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Oh I am way ahead of you, mango. I've already
broken the trophy into three separate pieces. Try for style.
There's one for John, one for Kart, and one to
be enshrined in a subterranean labyrinth where only the most
courageous warrior can ever hope to reach it.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
That is good thinking. And for anyone else who wants
to celebrate Zelda's fourtieth anniversary, give us a call it
three two four, five, five nine two five to tell
us your favorite game in the series or a fun
memory of playing it, playing Nintendo playing video games. Whatever
you want, we want to hear from you. You can
also send us an email at high Geniuses at gmail
(47:05):
dot com. That's Hi, Geniuses at gmail dot com. You
can also find us on Blue Sky and Instagram at
part time Genius. We always love hearing from you. Big thanks,
to John Cartwright and Killer Karp for speaking with us.
Be sure to check out the links to their work
in the show notes below. We will be back again
next week, but in the meantime, from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary,
(47:27):
and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time
Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is
hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known
(47:49):
for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.
I'm the Utaco host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is
Mary Phillips and she's actually a super producer. I'm going
to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,
who I've also known for like a decade at this point,
maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is
(48:12):
always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always ready
to hit record and then mix the show after he
does a great job. I also want to shout out
the executive producers from iHeart my good pals Katrina and
Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from
Calypso rallis if you like our videos, that is all
Calypso's Handiwork. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit
(48:36):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. That's it from us here
at Part Time Genius. Thank you so much for listening.
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mango, What's that give? The original Legend of
Zelda game launched in Japan in nineteen eighty six, which
means this year marks the fortieth anniversary.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Of the series.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So if you think about it, Link, the main character,
he's officially over the hill.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Which is super weird to think about because he looks
so young in the games. And plus he's like running
everywhere on that map and climbing mountains and swinging a
heavy sword. It feels it feels weird to think that
he and I are fairly close to thee Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I mean, he really needs to start pacing himself, right,
I mean, especially when you consider that Link was meant
to be about twelve years old in that first game,
so if the character really did age in real time,
he'd actually be in his fifties by now.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Oh wow. I do think Nintendo made the right call
keeping him more or less the same age, because I
don't think I'd really want to play him as a
geriatric But I mean, that is really fun to think about.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, one of my favorite things I found out this
week is that the series. Creator of gaming legend Shagiro Miyamoto,
he never wanted Link to age to adulthood. He thought
the character worked best as you know, a playful, childish boy,
and that, as he put it, quote, if we made
him too cool, he wouldn't be Link anymore. But you
(01:43):
know that philosophy. It began to change in the mid
nineteen nineties when Nintendo started development on the Legend of
Zelda Ocarina of Time, which was the first entry in
the series to feature three D graphics. The game's director,
Yoshiaka Koizumi, he decided to give Link a slightly older
look that time around, not so much because of the
move to three D, but because his wife didn't think
(02:06):
Nintendo characters were handsome enough.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I mean, maybe she's not a mustache fan, because Mario
and Luigi are you know, total hanks, and everyone knows it.
You've got Kirby Donkey Kong Starfus. I mean, Nintendo games
are like stunt Central, right, I mean.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, you're preaching to the choir, but you know, nonetheless, Koiyazumi,
he took the feedback seriously and purposely redesigned Link to
be more good looking. However, you know, as a compromise
to Miyamoto the gameplay and Ocarina of Time actually included
both versions of the character, Young Link and adult Link.
(02:45):
Who's you know still only meant to be about sixteen
or seventeen, And from that point on, all the games
in the series have featured Link in one of those
two age ranges, between ten and twelve or sixteen and
eighteen the teenage heart throb version of Link. He's become
the norm for most three D Zelda games, and thankfully
Miamoto seems to have made peace with that. When Ocarina
(03:07):
of Time was remade for the three DS and twenty eleven,
he said, quote, the graphics are even better this time,
so Link is even more handsome, just the way Zuni
Son's wife likes him.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I love that the series was adjusted to make room
for all these different interpretations of the character, and it
shows just how adaptable this core premise of the game is,
and I imagine that's why it's still going strong like
after all these years. But in honor of the series
forty birthday, today's episode is a deep dive into the
legend of Zelda, how it came to be, what makes
(03:43):
it so special and why it just might be the
perfect video game, and because it's dangerous to go alone,
we are bringing a few friends and fellow Zelda fans
along for the journey, so let's dive in. Hey, their
(04:16):
podcast listeners, welcome to part time Genius. I'm Mongi's articular,
and because Will would rather play outside than play video games,
which is a true statement, I have joined instead by
my good pal Gabe Lucier. And over there in the
booth sporting a familiar green hat and tunic, that is
our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. He is clearly going
(04:37):
for a link homage, and the likeness is downright uncanny,
except I don't know why he's waving a bunch of
Indian rookies around, because last time I checked, the Kingdom
of High Rule wasn't on the subcontinent.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I mean, it'd be cool if it was, But you know,
I think the main reason is that hr nicks to
him bringing a sword to work. But you know, also,
the in game currency in Zelda games is call rupees,
and it's even spelled the same. That's so weird, I know, right,
But Zelda rupees are gemstones, you know, not paper money,
so they're a little different than and yeah, the game's
clearly not said in India. Honestly though, I can relate
(05:13):
to Dylan's confusion. I played the early games as a kid,
and I remember asking my older brother if rupees were
a real thing, and he was like, yeah, that's the
currency of India. So you know, for the next few years,
I thought everyone in India carried around pouches of like
little green and purple gemstones like in Zelda, and I
was pretty heartbroken when I learned the truth.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
To be fair, it is strange that Nintendo chose rupees
instead of just like using generic gold is the currency,
which it is in like other fantasy games, right, But
it's such a specific thing they chose. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, that's what I thought too, and so when I
looked into it, you know, According to Miamoto, the connection
to the Indian rupee was completely unintentional. He thought it
would be more interesting and distinct from other games like
Mario to have the player collect gem stones instead of coins,
and that led him to the word rubies. But since
the gemstones in the game weren't always read, he called
(06:08):
them rubies, not knowing that the name was already taken
by a real life currency.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That's so funny and weird, and I guess they just
stuck with it ever since, just because I don't know,
because they wanted to. It feels like a point of
confusion for people.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, well, what about you, Like, did that ever trip
you up as a kid?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
You know, I don't remember. I mean, I do remember
being confused when I found out Zelda wasn't the main character,
you know, like despite being right there at the title.
One of my friends called him Link, and I was like,
Who's Link, you know? And the truth is, we were
late to get Nintendo, so I only knew about it
through this osmosis and stuff, and so like we would
(06:47):
like pretend play Zelda. We play all these games like
out in the real world, and then I'd go over
their house and play video games. But I was like
a year behind or two years behind in terms of
when we actually got an NES.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of a write
of passage anyway, mixing up Link for Zelda.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Actually, just speaking of the NES for a second, I
remember hinting very very strongly to my parents that I
wanted a Nintendo system, and I saw this Nintendo shaped
box under the Christmas tree, and I just thought like,
oh my gosh, my prayers have been answered. I did
all the right legwork with my parents and whatever, and
(07:26):
then I opened it up on Christmas. It was like
exactly the same size. It was a chemistry cell.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Brutal. So you relate to the NES party a little bit.
But was the original Zelda? Was that still your entry point,
you know to the series?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah? I remember my friend Chris Sammus down the block
did get an NES and I got totally hooked playing
Mario at his house, and then Zelda came out and
we used to go to my friend's Jeff and Kristen's
house and we would play it there and it just
blew my mind. It was so different from like any
other type of game at the time. The way you
moved around the screen, the like fact you could continue
(08:03):
a game from where you left off, which just wasn't
a thing earlier, and the whole fantasy bit.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
We had a PC, so I played like King's Quest
and stuff like that, and we were obsessed with that
as well. But Zelda was just like so fresh, and
like I said earlier, like we used to we had
these beautiful woods behind our house and with a creek,
and we would go sort of enact the video games
out there.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh yes, okay, so this was like right up your alley.
You were right in the pocket for Zelda.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah. I mean it was kind of like the digital
version of what we were doing in real life anyway.
You know, like playing all these imaginary games out there.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, right, imagination is key there, right, because you probably
weren't running into a lot of moblins in the woods
behind your house.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
No, But you know, fantasy stories and choose your own
adventure stories were big at that time, and I don't know,
like all of that was just a way to especially
like we had long rides on the bus to school,
and so you were like coming up with a video
game as a story for a friend and they would
have to choose between two doors or like you know,
(09:06):
neat a big boss or that type of thing. It
really sort of fed our imagination. But I'm curious for you,
you're obviously younger than me. Did it have like a
similar effect on you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, for sure. I mean that first game. In that
first game, you know, the player really calls the shots,
and you know that isn't true to the same extent
and a lot of the later Zelda games there's a
lot more kind of handholding and sign posting to kind
of steer the player in the right direction. But in
that first one, you're really on your own, and you know,
it was kind of strangely empowering as a kid. And
(09:35):
in fact, I talked to games journalist John Cartwright from
Good Vibes Gaming it's one of my favorite YouTube channels.
To check it out if you haven't, and he said
that that free wheeling sense of exploration is why that
first game still feels so fresh all these years later.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
The cool thing about Zelder is I think almost every
cool game kind of inspires the next league of game design.
So you go back to Zelda one, which which plays
very differently toward the Zelda games because it just throws
you into the world and doesn't really give you an objective.
You just explore, You find the dungeons yourselves, you can
do them in any order. And so because Zelda doesn't
(10:12):
play like that anymore, it's actually really timeless because it's
not being replaced, it's not being iterated on, really, and
it's still really fun.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
You know. Timeless is such a great way to put
it because the main themes of that game are kind
of exploration and discovery, and it's not like those things
ever stop being appealing. And like I was saying, Zelda
really did echo the kinds of scenarios we were playing
out as kids in my neighborhood. But it wasn't until
decades later that I learned that that was actually by design.
(10:42):
The whole game was inspired by Miamoto's childhood memories from
the nineteen fifties and sixties. He actually grew up in
a small rural town called Sonobe, It's just outside Kyoto,
and he spent much of his time exploring the surrounding countryside.
And you know, he would wander through forests and track
through mountains and go spelunking, and sometimes he'd even come
(11:03):
across an old forgotten shrine or like a little dirt
pathway that might lead to a hidden village, which.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Is so awesome. Like the coolest thing I ever found
in the woods behind my house were like these old
glass soda bottles, and they felt so cool at the
time that I would have gladly traded him, like in
a heartbeat, for a moss covered shrine.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Way better. Yeah, I imagine they're not quite as plentiful
as southern Caroland, and certainly not in in northern Delaware,
where I'm from. But you know, as you'd expect, those
early life adventures really stuck with Miyamoto, and two decades later,
when he was looking to create a new game for
the Famicon this system, he decided to make one that
(11:45):
captured that same sense of thrill and wonder that he
had felt as a young explorer. He was very explicit
about that goal in this twenty eleven interview. He said, quote,
I wanted to recreate the places I played in as
a child, but create more streamlined and connected versions of them,
to create a boxed garden.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, so just like you were saying, a digital version
of a real life adventure.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, exactly. But make a game like that turned out
to be easier said than done, thanks to all the
technical constraints at the time. So why don't we take
a quick break, and when we come back, I'll tell
you how Miamoto and his team actually pulled it off.
(12:36):
Welcome back to Part Time Genius and our perilous journey
through the Kingdom of High Rule. Okay, Gabe, so I
was saying before the break, recreating the huge open spaces
that Miyamoto had explored as a child was really quite
a tall order for the technology of the early eighties.
Nintendo's then current hardware was the eight bit cartridge based
(12:57):
Famicon or Family Computer. The same system was later released
in the US as the nes or Nintendo Entertainment System,
and Miamoto knew that the console wouldn't be up to
the challenge on its own. Luckily, though, the company was
preparing to release a new add on accessory for the console,
the Famicon Disc System, and this was capable of reading
(13:17):
floppy discs. The device allowed designers to create sort of
bigger and longer games than those that could fit on
a standard cartridge, and this meant they could program more
enemies and items and bosses, more complex behaviors, and also
more beautiful backgrounds. Right, And most importantly for Miyamoto, it
meant that you could create these larger game worlds. Right.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And that's also what allowed them to add the save
function you mentioned earlier, right, because you know, cartridge games
they only had those clunky password systems.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's even it's hard to think back about, right,
like how much this stuff has evolved. But if you
want to continue a game from where you left off,
you had to write down this long, complicated password. You
also have to make sure you didn't lose it right then,
and then slowly type it all in again. It really
was like this massive hassle. But with the dis system,
the disc memory could actually be rewritten in real time,
(14:11):
which allowed players to save their progress and pick it
up later, and you didn't need a password. The Legend
of Zelda was the first console game to implement that
kind of save function, but other developers took notice and
the feature quickly became industry standard.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It makes so much sense that that Zelda was the
starting point for that, Like it doesn't have traditional levels
that you play in a set order, and the game
map was so much bigger than other titles. There was
no way the average player was gonna, you know, explore
all that in one sitting.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah. And actually, during initial development, Mimoto built a two
player prototype of the game that was entirely focused on
level creation, so one player would craft their own sprawling
maze or dungeon, and once it was finished, a second
player could actually explore their friend's creation. This save function
would have been crucial there as well. You know or else,
(15:03):
all that hard work that would just get erased, right
like when you turned off the system.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, and you know, I didn't know Zelda started out
as a level creator. That's pretty wild, Like, it feels
very ambitious for the time. I wonder why they scrapped it, though.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think Miyamoto just realized that the exploration was the
most fun part, so he shifted focus and started building
an expansive world for players to journey through, rather than
making them design these games on their own right. And
the new approach made the game much more engaging, but
it also called for more narrativelopments than Miyamoto had first envisioned,
(15:37):
because with that sort of level creator game, the goal
had been to just reach the end of the maze.
But now that players were sort of being set loose
on this giant map, they need more context and more
direction and a reason to explore all the different parts
of it. So to help fill in those details, Mimoto
teamed up with the co director and writer. His name's
(15:57):
Takashi Tezuka, and to get the pair came up with
this fairytale like story. It was inspired by medieval folklore
fantasy novels, kind of like the Lure of the Rings,
and the protagonist, as we all know, is this young
swordsman named Link who must embark on an epic quest
through this treacherous kingdom of High Rule. His goal is
(16:19):
to repair a powerful sacred relic called the Triforce of
Wisdom and rescue the titular Princess Zelda. Of course, she's
been held in the clutches of the series. Is evil
archvillain Gannon.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Oh sure, yeah, a tale is old as time. But
you know, I do wonder how many kids back then
were even aware of the game's story, Like, aside from
a little blurb in the title screen, the plot was
it was really only spelled out in the manual, So
if you just booted up the game without reading it
like I did, you wouldn't really know who was who
(16:52):
or like what the story was.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, which is again probably why we all thought Link's
name was Zelda, right, Like, none of us were reading
the man in and then excited exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I mean, you know, to be fair, Nintendo kind of
set us all up to fail on that one. Like
in pac Man, you play as pac Man. In Mario
you play as Mario, so naturally, in the legend of Zelda.
You expect to play a Zelda, but no, and then
to really mess with all of us. You know, the
game starts by having you enter your name, and I
(17:24):
distinctly remember putting Zelda because I thought that's the character's name,
and when I found out he was actually called Link,
I had to start over, you know, with a new
save file. I couldn't handle it.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, well, I mean I don't know that you had to,
but I just said that now, since we're back on
the subject. For anyone wondering where the name Zelda came from,
it's actually a reference to Zelda Fitzgerald, the famous novelist
in Panter, who was also the wife of f Scott Fitzgerald. Apparently,
Miamoto and his team weren't that familiar with her life
(17:56):
or her work, but they like the sound of her
name and they thought it would add this sort of
regal error to the title. The character of Zelda doesn't
have a lot to do in the original game. She's
basically just, you know, this cliche damsel in distress, but
she does become a bigger part of the story and
takes more of an active role in later games. So
it's safe to say she's earned her a spot in
(18:17):
the title.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah. Plus, you know, the legend of Link really doesn't
have the same ring to it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I mean, I do like the rationale of calling the
protagonist Link though, because Miamoto said he chose the name
because the character is the point of connection or the
link between the player and this game world. So in
some sense, that's supposed to be us on the screen
or our digital alter ego going on this grand adventure.
I even found this, like great interview from nineteen eighty
(18:47):
nine here, let me pull it up, and Miamoto spells
it out, saying, quote, I want to create a game
world that conveyed the same feeling you get when you
are exploring a new city for the first time. How
fun would it be? I thought if I could make
the player identify with the main character in the game
and get completely lost and immersed in that world.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
It's kind of amazing how cleanly they hit that mark,
like right out of the gate, and we're then able
to carry that forward to other entries, because everyone I
talked to says that, Yeah, like they really did identify
with the little elf guy on the screen. In fact,
listen to how John Cartwright describes it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think it's the same thing for Spider Man, like
anyone can wear that mask, and a lot of the
time of Link, because it's in third person in three
D games, you'll see in the back of his head
it's just that green tunic cat and like that could
be me, Yeah, that could be anybody.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So another thing John mentioned is that Nintendo protagonists tend
to be blank slates for players to project themselves onto,
which is one reason why there's so little dialogue in
their games. And that's especially the case with Link. He's
very archetypal. His personality isn't well defined, and that that
makes it easier for the player to imagine themselves in
(20:02):
his shoes. And it was the same thing with you know,
typing your name at the start of the game. I mean,
I did the boring thing and entered Link's name, but
you know, the option to put your own name, it
was really an invitation to claim the story for yourself
and to say, you know, this is my adventure.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Looking back, it really did feel like an epic adventure
as a kid, right, Like you had to Guidelink across
all these different landscapes, deserts, forest cemeteries and fight a
bunch of weird monsters. Plus you had to keep an
eye out for secret pathways and hidden items, and there
was just this enormous sense of scale to the game,
and that was further heightened by its unique top down perspective,
(20:40):
which gave the player a bird's eye view of High Rule.
You know, the apic graphics may look pretty bare bones
by today's standards, but that original game world still feels
really expansive and awfully immersive to me even now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, the art style was a real master class in
accomplishing a lot with a little and the same goes
for the game's music, which was all done by Nintendo's
in house composer Kogikondo. I actually talked to another YouTuber.
His real name is Dave, but he goes by killer
Karp on his channel, and he has an amazing collection
(21:17):
of vintage Nintendo toys and he's an avid retro gamer,
and he told me that the look and sound of
the original Zelda are what really hooked him on the series.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
It's a beautiful hodgepodge of like Greek mythology and the
amazing minds of Japanese artists. I was obsessed as a kid,
with all the weapons and items that you could get
throughout the game. I just remember looking in the books
and the game guides and Nintendo Powers and just drawing
the meat on the bone and the blue potion and
(21:50):
the red potion, all the different swords, all the different
things that you could get and a crew throughout the game.
But from a bigger scope of lore and what makes
it stand out. It's tough to put your finger on
it because it kind of borrows from so many things,
and the soup just becomes Zelda in its own unique way.
The music is a huge part of it. That opening
screen with the waterfall and the pink sky and the
(22:12):
music coming on, you get chills.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know. Nintendo was so smart to make the music
go that hard because you wander around a lot in
this game, so you get so familiar with that theme song.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, it's true, and so much of that game's challenge
is just figuring out where to go and what to do.
I still get lost and I've been playing it for decades.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, so apparently the original map was no joke. It
had one hundred and twenty eight connected screens to get
lost in, plus those underground dungeons which were their own
separate mazes of rooms and boss fights. Like if you
knew all the tricks and secrets, or if you actually
use the map that came with a manual, then you
could beat the game in like an hour. But for
(22:57):
first timers it could easily take ten hours or more,
which you know is actually a long time for a
game of that era.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, well you think ten hours is rough. Killer Karp
told me he was so stumped as a kid that
he set the game aside for a full ten years
before he finally felt ready to finish it.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Once I was old enough to actually play the game
in the late eighties, couldn't get very far. And then
it was in my high school years when I really
dug in and actually beat the game. And I was
a freshman in high school with my best friend Ryan,
and I remember it clearly. We beat it on May fifteenth,
and from that day forward we called that day Zelda Day.
That was the day we got all the try force
(23:35):
and defeated Gannon and restored Light to High Rule and
save Princes Zelda. We did not have any players, guides
or maps. We kind of just had to go through
the game, burn every bush, move every rock, and it
took a long long time to get through.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I mean the fact that he remember the exact date
tells you how big a deal it was to beat
this game. Like, it really doesn't matter how old you are.
If you roll credits without using a guide, then you've
earned yourself some serious bragging rights, right Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Which is kind of wild when you think about it. Like,
adult players were not a huge part of the video
game market back then like they are today. Kids were
the target audience for the original Zelda, and the developers
did not go easy on them.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah. I actually read that during pre release testing a
lot of players got lost in the dungeons and were
annoyed by the lack of sort of this like clear
cut objective. But Miyamoto stood his ground, and he really
refused to water down the difficulty. He believed that the
non linear aspects of the game actually encouraged players to
work together and share tips and made it more like
(24:40):
community oriented in a way.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, which is you know exactly what happened for Killer
Karp and his buddy Ryan.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean, Miyamoto really like sort of planned for this,
But that's not to say he was completely confident in
the game at the time. Star Wars, you know, had
made a huge splash, and science fiction was all the
rage and pop culture, and Miamoto really worried that kids
wouldn't connect with this like fantasy setting of Zelda, and
he later reflected, quote, a world of swords in magic
(25:07):
really wasn't considered mainstream at the time. I really didn't
expect the response I got.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Which was what exactly like. Because it's a fan favorite
today obviously, but how did folks feel about it at launch?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, the Famicon disc system was a flop and never
actually released outside of Japan, but the legend of Zelda
was this completely different story. It was by far the
system's strongest seller when it launched in Japan on February
twenty first, nineteen eighty six. The game was then re
released for the regular Fabicon a year later, thanks to
a new kind of cartridge that had a stronger memory
(25:40):
chip and battery powered RAM. The American version of the
game was released about six months later, in August of
nineteen eighty seven, and as I'm sure you remember, our
version sport an eye catching gold colored cartridge which you
know stood out from the rest of the standard gray ones.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, that gold was your first col that
this game was truly something special. It doesn't get much
more iconic than that cartridge. And those babies, let me
tell you, they still shine like the sun at yard sales.
You can see them from a mile away.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Well, I mean, I guess that like marketing and that
premium presentation actually paid off, because Legend of Zelda went
on to sell more than seven million copies worldwide, and
while many of its players did experience frustration of like
getting lost on those world maps, they also discovered the
satisfaction of finding their way, you know, eventually.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Right, And that's maybe the craziest thing about that first game,
and really most games in the Zelda series, even if
you never fully finish it, you still have a great
time playing and the experience sticks with you because you know,
the game design is just that strong.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You know. I've definitely started more Zelda games than I
finished in my lifetime. But when the next one rolls around, like,
I'm always back on board, and I love that It's
become a thing that like my son loves.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, it really speaks to the quality of the series.
Every few years you see those listicles come out right.
Top ten video Games of all time or whatever, and
it is almost always a legend of Zelda game in
the top spot. Like the winning game changes over time,
as you know, new entries come to the forefront, but
the series as a whole is ranked the best pretty consistently.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it's one of the few things that video game
fans seem to agree on, and after we take a
quick break, we're going to try to pin down exactly
why that is. So stay tuned, Welcome back to part
(27:44):
time genius, Okay Gabe. So far, we've talked mostly about
the first game in the Zelda series, which is known
in Japan as Zelda no den Setsu The High Rule
of Fantasy. It was popular enough to spawn dozens of
sequels and spin offs over the past forty years, and
many of those games are now just as beloved, if
not more so, than the original. So I'm curious, what
(28:07):
do you think has kept the series going so strong
for all this time? Like, what is that secret? Sauce?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Honestly, I racked my brain trying to figure that out,
and aside from the humbling work ethic of Japanese game designers,
it's hard to land on a single satisfying answer. But
that said, I do think John Cartwright came pretty darn
close to cracking it.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
There were all games where you start from very small nothingness,
like you're just a guy in a house and you
end up being the person responsible for saving the world.
But what really makes it different, I'd say, is the
vibe to it all the atmosphere and the way the
characters talk to you. It never feels that dark. There's
always like a hopefulness to Zelder, which keeps it feeling
fun rather than daunting a lot of the time, and
(28:52):
that's remained consistent through every single game. There's always this
quirkiness to the characters. There's also this familiarity towards them
because most of them use different links and different Zeldas
and different versions of Hiral, but you recognize things that
you recognize Kakariko Village, you recognize the Great Decutree, so
it kind of feels like you're coming home every time,
even if the context of it was always like completely
(29:14):
different there.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So there's three things John hits on there, relatability, familiarity,
and freshness. So the first one is what we've been
talking about all day, the longing for adventure, the freedom
of exploring outside the feeling of being just a guy
in a house. Those are experiences we can all relate to,
and the idea of familiarity and the feeling of coming home,
(29:38):
that's a key component of Miyamoto's design philosophy. I found
an interview he did in nineteen ninety one for the
release of the third game in the series, the Legend
of Zelda, a Link to the Past, and the interviewer
asks if there's a limit to the ideas that can
be implemented in a video game, and Miamoto responds, quote,
it's a game designer's job to figure out how to compile, file,
(30:00):
and program ideas from the real world into a video game.
I think the ability to collect and organize is even
more important to making games than the power of imagination
and creativity. It's all about selecting, amplifying, and organizing those ideas.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I kind of get what he means, because even though
Zelda is a fantasy series, the whole game world really
isn't that different from ours. Right aside from the monsters,
the settings are like familiar landscapes. You've got like fields
and mountains, deserts. The physics are the same, Even things
like how cracked walls are easier to break than solid ones,
or how you can cut the grass with your sword
(30:39):
and later games, there's a fidelity between our world and
links world that I think is really satisfying, Like things
work the way you'd expect them to.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, exactly, and that translation of real world inspiration into
the digital world that exists really in every facet of
the series, even when we aren't fully aware of it.
For instance, and when the series made the jump to
three D and the Ocarina of Time, the developers had
to figure out a way to handle combat in a
three dimensional space. So ha, if Link was attacked by
(31:10):
multiple enemies at once, it was hard for the player
to like position the camera so they could focus their
strikes on, you know, a single opponent. So the team
came up with what they called Z targeting. It was
this really ingenious system. When the player presses the Z button,
the viewpoint would automatically shift to a view from directly
behind Link, allowing him to kind of lock on to
(31:32):
specific enemies and you know, attack them systematically. But that mechanic,
it wasn't something they pulled out of thin air. The
game's directors went to see a sword fighting demonstration at
a local theme park in Japan, and they paid close
attention to the combatants' movements, and they noticed that when
one person was fighting against many, his opponents would attack
(31:53):
in order, one at a time. That same day, they
also watched a kusurigami demonstration, which is a a weapon
composed of like a sickle attached to a chain, and
that gave them the idea of establishing this invisible chain
between Link and his enemies. So when you use Z targeting,
you would move in an arc around the opponent that
(32:14):
you've locked onto, like that chain is stretched between you,
and that would allow you to kind of find the
best angle from which to deal a blow.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's pretty fascinating because of course, the average player isn't
going to make that connection between Link's movements and some
sort of like traditional samurai stage show. But there's something
about the system that still feels intuitive and correct because
it's ultimately rooted in these real world techniques.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, and you know, Nintendo had been incorporating real world
ideas into the series like that pretty much since the
first game, but ak Aina really ratcheted up the approach
because you know, of the three D visuals, for example,
I read this interview with Miyamoto from twenty eleven where
he talks about trying to bring chicken flying into the
three D games. But chicken flying, all right, yeah, well,
(33:02):
well cucko flying if you want to get technical, right,
Chickens and Zelda are called cuckos. But uh yeah, there
was this unused mechanic from a link to the past
on the Super Nintendo where you were supposed to be
able to grab a chicken, jump off a ledge and
kind of like flutterfly to the ground. It wound up
being cut, you know, but the team later revived it
(33:22):
for Ocarina. They had that much faith in it, and
you know, as Miyamoto explained, quote, I thought chicken flying
would be weird if the graphics were more realistic. But
when we made it, I was happy to see that
it fit perfectly. I realized that those kinds of things
are more fun in a three D space, So all
of a sudden, I said, let's make the landforms more
(33:44):
three dimensional. I started referencing villages and mountainous districts in China,
such as you might see in a documentary. I was saying, see,
there are all kinds of villages and can't we make
a more distinctive village And just then it connected perfectly
to the chickens.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I love that, and I'm also not sure I completely
understand it, but it's such a small, silly thing, But
I love how he's so inspired by the chicken flying
that it improves the way the landscapes look. There's something
really like fun about that whole statement and the way
he views the world.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Absolutely, And it's also a really clear example of what
Miamoto calls hospitality in game design.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So the idea is that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
You try to anticipate all the little things that the
player will want to do, and you know that they'd
be disappointed if they couldn't do. And that includes things
like cutting the grass with your sword or jumping off
a slope while holding a chicken. None of it is
like strictly necessary. It doesn't affect the overall story or
the gameplay, but it adds a spark of joy, right
(34:49):
and satisfaction for the player, and it also makes the
game world feel that much more familiar and alive. It
feels like the kind of thing that leaves this like
wonderful lasting impression players because it shows the designers really
cared about crafting a good experience and were willing to
put the extra effort in to deliver, whether or not
the player realizes it.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Absolutely. John told me that Ocarina was his gateway Zelda game,
and a big reason that he fell for it so
hard was that care and attention to detail.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Growing up, I played a lot of games, but nothing
that was that high quality. And then one day I
played Okarno of Time and it changed my perspective and
what games were. This was around two thousand and four.
An Okernam of Time came out in ninety eight, so
six years old at that point, but it was still
just really far ahead of other games in terms of
scope and adventure. So even though the visuals weren't more
(35:42):
limited compared to what was out there, the pure design
language was timeless. Back on the PlayStation Sega Saturn N
sixty four, there weren't that many big three D adventure games.
Most of them tried to limit the scope because it
was very hard to make that kind of world. So
to go the extra mile to have all these strange
chemical reactions which wouldn't exist in other games was kind
(36:04):
of unheard of, and it's mad that they pulled it
off so well, But I think it's part of why
the game still feels so timeless overall these years, because
those elements are still quite rare today that even if
the visuals may look of their era, the field doesn't.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It is amazing that so many of these games still
hold their own no matter how much time goes by. Like,
they're all pretty similar in some regards, but because the
developers keep chasing innovation, there's always some like, you know,
special new hook or feature that makes each new entry unique. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It all goes back to that idea of freshness, So
no matter how familiar the series gets, there's always something
new to pull you in, whether it's three D visuals
or horse riding, or sailing between different islands or making
link more handsome. Players know that Nintendo doesn't rest on
its laurels, you know, when it comes to this series,
so there's always reason to get excited for each new entry.
(36:59):
It is a tricky balancing act, though, because you want
to preserve the feel of the series and you know,
all the aspects that longtime players have come to expect,
while also ensuring that the games remain accessible and never
feel too Samey and I think it's safe to say
that Breath of the Wild, for the switch, that was
really the high water mark in terms of striking that balance.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
When you look at all the Zelders through the years,
I'd say there's a couple of pivotal points. So the
first zeld is one of them. A Link to the
Pass is the next one, where it just really just
makes what the Zelda formula even is today. They're ockera
of time doing it in three D, and then there
was kind of a lull where they were very comfortable
making that kind of game for a while, like Operative Time,
Joy's Mask, which is a cool outlier, Win Wake a
(37:44):
Twilette Princess, Like they're great games, but they don't really
push the industry forward and took all the way until
Breath of the Wild, where finally it became a huge deal,
skyrocketedt what Zelda was all for the fact that it
just did something really different and new the first time
in maybe fifteen years at that point.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, So I definitely remember watching my son Henry play
it for the first time in like twenty seventeen and thinking,
this really is the promise of that original Zelda, and
it was so fully realized. That sense of like freedom
and exploration and all that stuff that felt novel in
the original game suddenly was elevated to like, I don't know,
like the million degree right. If you saw a mountain
(38:25):
in the distance, you could run and gallop and hang
glide your way to it and then climate to see
what was on the other side. And all those limitations
and restraints that you had from either like the graphics
or the discs or the memory or whatever, like, all
of that was completely lifted and you could go anywhere.
It really was pretty stunning to me. You know. One
(38:46):
of the keys to all of this is that the
laws of nature in the game actually aligned with real
world physics, and the items become less durable and break
over time, which I think is really fascinating. Metal objects
conduct electricity. You have a finite amount of stamina before
you get tired and you can't run or climb anymore.
I think, like what you were saying about before, right,
like the idea that this world behaves as you'd expect
(39:08):
it to, and because all these systems that are connected,
it really allows the player to experiment and come up
with their own solutions. You know, if you run out
of stamina while climbing that mountain, right, that really isn't
a problem. You can just set the grass on fire,
which creates an op draft of warm air, and then
pop open your paraglider and ride the current all the
(39:28):
way to the top. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It's just that easy. And you know, I like that
you describe Breath of the Wild as the fulfillment of
that original Zelda. That's actually exactly how Miamoto and the
team at Nintendo saw it too. In a twenty sixteen
interview promoting the game, Miamoto said, quote, back in the day,
the legend of Zelda was built upon the ideas of
great freedom of action and miniature gardens. As the series evolved,
(39:53):
we turned it more and more into a game with
a single path to follow. This pushed us to create
bigger and more complex dungeons and to design puzzles requiring
specific items, which led to very linear games. So we
decided to go back to the roots of the saga
and start developing the game we're showing you today, so
Breath of the Wild. It was kind of a return
(40:14):
to form for the series while still pushing it in
completely new directions. And then the team doubled down on
that open ended, physics based approach in the direct follow
up game, Tiers of the Kingdom. In that one, you
not only have all of high Rule to explore, you
can also build these like customized vehicles that let you
explore deep underground or like soar high above through this
(40:37):
like chain of floating islands. It's funny, right, because it
almost feels like too many options and too much for you,
Like do you know where to start? Yeah, I know
what you mean. But that's kind of the great thing
about it, Like there's no wrong or right answer. You
can progress through the game in any direction at any
speed you want, and you know, still have a great
time doing it. And while that's a very different approach
(40:58):
compared to other three D adventure games, which tend to
be much more linear, it's actually right in line with
Miamoto's vision of the series from the very beginning. A
few years after the first game was released, he told
an interviewer quote, I don't want to make games where
the player is just a puppet in the hands of
the creator, playing exactly as scripted. I want to present
(41:19):
games that are more like pure toys, something you can use,
explore and play with freely.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Which you know, mission accomplished. And really it is so
cool that he had that sort of clarity of vision
from the very start, and also that he's been able
to like pass it along to all these designers who've
taken the reins of the series. It is still amazing
to me that link is over the hill. But I'm
excited to see where he progresses over the next forty years,
(41:47):
and also to see whether you and I will still
be playing.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, well, you know, I've got some great news on
that front. A couple months back, Killer Karp introduced the
world to a ninety one year old Zelda fan named
Jim who still plays the games every day. What Yeah,
her story it is like this beautiful reminder that this series,
this hobby, it doesn't have an age limit.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
So Jan is ninety one going on ninety two, and
she first got into gaming in the mid nineties when
her grandson was interested in playing. She had a five
year old grandson and he didn't have a way to game,
so he was staying with her. She took him to
Walmart and she bought him everything he needed. She bought
(42:32):
him the TV, she bought him the N sixty four
she bought him Mario and she bought him Okerina of Time,
and that was how they bonded. And when he wanted
to take everything home with him, she said, actually no.
She was hooked. And from that point forward she became
obsessed with video games, and not just video games, but
specifically Zelda. That was her favorite. That was the one
(42:55):
that stuck the most, and she has played every Zelda
game right up into the switch. I've always wondered if
I'll be you know that Grandpa playing Contra, And I
guess I can be and I will be. And I
think she gave a lot of people that feeling that
that they can gain as long as they want to
(43:15):
and no one can stop them, and there's no stigma
that can get in the way of doing what you love.
And I think that's really what resonated with a ton
of people. We can see ourselves someday being jam and
not being ashamed of it.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Oh, that is so heartwarming and I guess inspiring because
I feel like I want to play as geriatric link
when I am also jeriatic.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Well may we all be so lucky? All right?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Well, before we bring this journey to a close, do
you have any parting advice for listeners who may want
to dip their toes in the Zelda series. Right, there
are obviously tons of games out there now, and most
of them have a pretty high pedigree. So where would
you say is a good entree? Like? Where where should
people Stugh.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's a tough question, you know. The good news is that,
with very rare exceptions, these are self contained, standalone stories.
A couple of them do connect, but for the most
part you can just ignore all the fan theories about
timelines and just play them in any order you want.
After all, these are legends, right, so you know, there's
no definitive version of the story of Link saving High Rule.
(44:24):
They're all kind of iterations on the same basic theme,
so they're all valid. My personal favorite is probably Link's Awakening,
which was originally made for the Game Boy but was
then remade for the Switch a few years back. It's
kind of an oddball Zelda game because it doesn't actually
take place in High Rule, which is a rarity. But
it is charming and it has all the great Zelda hallmarks,
(44:46):
plus a very bizarre, very meta storyline. There's a twist
coming at the end that you won't see, so that
would probably be my pick. But you know that, said
our two guests today, they're really the experts here and
they both had some very strong feelings on this question,
so let's give them the last word.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
I can't imagine playing Zelda without having the foundation of
the original games, so I would say that you can't
move forward with Zelda without at least holding that gold
painted cartridge in your hands, and if you're able to
play it, and it's maybe too rudimentary for you, playing
(45:27):
to the past, I think that's the most timeless Zelda
game that we'll have, and the perfect representation of what
Zelda originally was meant to be and what it could
eventually become.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
I'd say, if you're interested in checking out Zelder, I
wouldn't worry too much about what people are saying is
the best one, because we have all started with a
different Zelda. We all have our favorites and they are
all excellent. Whatever you start with will probably be great.
I'd recommend a few like Ocarina or of the Wild
(46:00):
a link to the past, but it doesn't matter that much.
I think just forge your own adventure, don't look up guides,
don't try and find the best most efficient way to play.
Just take it as it is, and that's that's how
you find all the fun. It's just taking your own journey,
making it your own. Don't worry about what people tell
you to do.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
So that is great advice. And actually, I know this
is a little unorthodox, but what do you say we
give them today's trophy?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Oh I am way ahead of you, mango. I've already
broken the trophy into three separate pieces. Try for style.
There's one for John, one for Kart, and one to
be enshrined in a subterranean labyrinth where only the most
courageous warrior can ever hope to reach it.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
That is good thinking. And for anyone else who wants
to celebrate Zelda's fourtieth anniversary, give us a call it
three two four, five, five nine two five to tell
us your favorite game in the series or a fun
memory of playing it, playing Nintendo playing video games. Whatever
you want, we want to hear from you. You can
also send us an email at high Geniuses at gmail
(47:05):
dot com. That's Hi, Geniuses at gmail dot com. You
can also find us on Blue Sky and Instagram at
part time Genius. We always love hearing from you. Big thanks,
to John Cartwright and Killer Karp for speaking with us.
Be sure to check out the links to their work
in the show notes below. We will be back again
next week, but in the meantime, from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary,
(47:27):
and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time
Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is
hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known
(47:49):
for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.
I'm the Utaco host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is
Mary Phillips and she's actually a super producer. I'm going
to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,
who I've also known for like a decade at this point,
maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is
(48:12):
always dressed up, always cheering us on, and always ready
to hit record and then mix the show after he
does a great job. I also want to shout out
the executive producers from iHeart my good pals Katrina and
Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from
Calypso rallis if you like our videos, that is all
Calypso's Handiwork. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit
(48:36):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. That's it from us here
at Part Time Genius. Thank you so much for listening.
Part-Time Genius News
Hosts And Creators
Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
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