May 3, 2026 • 38 mins
Hey PTG fans, Mangesh (aka Mango) has another show, Skyline Drive! On Sundays we’ll be sharing episodes from season 1 right here, so you can get excited for season 2, which drops in June.
We’re up to episode 3, in which Mangesh and producer Mary travel back in time to the 1980s, to uncover the truth about Nancy Reagan’s obsession with astrology and how that changed the course of American history.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers,
Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a
disastrous late night pizza party. Also astrology sensitive listeners. Keep
your tones handy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Sometimes I got games.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Sometimes I'm mad shot, Sometimes I'm mad lame.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Sometimes I'm mad flying.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Sometimes I'm so flying the bay.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I'm hellafly.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Sometimes I'll get fraud and.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It'll be televised.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slideshow, and
this time it's about hul Cogan. This is hul Cogan's
Rock and wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was
supposed to like Haulkogan, and sometimes I even pretended to
like Hulkogan, even though I was not a fan, but
(01:10):
I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they
were on. This is the only rock and wrestling episode
I remember. The President wants to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes, sir, your country is depending on you, Holster.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Don't let us down in it. The President like this cartoon.
Ronald Reagan asked Hulkogan to go to space to rescue
astronauts before a shuttle explodes. The cartoon is seared in
my brain because it aired not long after the Challenger disaster. Well,
I'll what was it like being the first wrestler in space?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I tell you, bang, it was more awesome than a
combat zong.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulkogan can
probably open a cargo bay door? Because I mean, I
know he's strong, But even in cartoon form, this seemed dumb.
And I was seven at the time. But maybe the
makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they were doing something
to help calm kids' nerves.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
And I want to say something to the school children
of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes
painful things like this happen.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
That's the actual Ronald Gray again. The day after the
Challenger exploded, our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into
our classroom so the President could talk to us directly.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
It's all part of taking a chance of expanding man's horizons.
The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted belongs to the brave.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America
right and to preserve hope in the face of something
so devastating, so visible. Anyway, what does any of this
have to do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the
(03:19):
only time Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space
and the future. That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And
it turns out in the nineteen eighties there was a
full on astrology scandal in the Reagan White House.
Speaker 7 (03:37):
I don't mean to offend anyone who does, but believe
in it, or engage you believe in it.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts, I'm Mongay's Shittiku. Welcome to
Skyline Drive, chapter one. When God's powerful word came.
Speaker 8 (04:42):
Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.
A few months ago I told the American people I
did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my
best intentions still tell me that's true, But the facts
and the evidence tell me it is.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Not.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable, like
frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three
million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen
years interviewing and shadowing Reagan, but when he turned in
his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.
(05:20):
And when he was asked why he did that with
his manuscript on sixty Minutes, Morris said, he was truly
one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around
him understood him. I every person I interviewed, almost without exception,
eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure
him out. Think about that. Fourteen years of access and
(05:44):
Morris couldn't figure out how to accurately write about the
man and what he stood for. And maybe that's why
my mom and dad had such different opinions of Reagan.
To my dad, a newly minted American, Reagan was proof
that anyone could make it in America, an actor becoming president.
I mean, that's the optimism of an immigrant, someone who
(06:06):
genuinely believed his son's potential was limitless in this new land.
But to my mom, who was not a fan of
his policies, Reagan's supposed an interest in astrology made her
like him more because it made him more like us.
And Reagan's interest in astrology was just this thing I
always knew about growing up, but as I grew older,
(06:29):
I began to question it, like it kind of seemed
too outlandish. To be true. So I asked my pal
Mary if she could find anything more concrete about this
whole story. Actually, before we dive into the controversat I
just wanted to ask you. I feel really lucky to
have you in this project, but I'm curious why you
(06:49):
did it, because you don't believe in astrology.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, you're very persuasive.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and
I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when
I pitched this tour, but I can.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I can learn about things without believing in them. I
figure it's an opportunity to go down a path I
would not ordinarily go down.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Do you know what your sign is?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I found out I'm a cancer. I thought I was
a Gemini. Oh really, turns out I'm a cancer.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
So I wroped you into this thing with astrology, and
then I said, hey, I really want to look into
Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much
as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of
Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and
seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. My
parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during the eighties,
so I had a very different experience. So it didn't
(07:48):
seem to really add up my understanding of Ronald Reagan
and my understanding of astrology. That didn't really make any sense.
And so that was why I figured it would be
really interesting to find out what actually happened.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So, like, what was the sort of controversy that made
everyone suddenly start talking about it?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So this is really juicy. There's this guy Don Reagan
who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan, and
he had been the chairman of Merrill Lynch for a
long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the
architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff
and he left the White House. He got kicked out,
and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.
(08:25):
And so he turned around and wrote a tell all
book in nineteen eighty eight, called for the record, and
apparently he got a million dollar advance, which was huge
money at the time.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Million dollars.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he
was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him
to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from
a friend, quote quote. He even said he had to
keep a color coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days,
(08:56):
bad days, if he days for the president's travel. His
public appearance says all of this, and the press went crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
The Reagan's and their stars. Astrologically speaking, did Donald Reagan
get his ex bosses Capricorn? That is goat? Or is
it all a load of Taurus?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
If President Richard Nixon?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Towards the end, the claim was I am not a
crook with Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Last week it was more like I am.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Not a nut?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon?
It's a story like.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
That, Yeah, it is. I consider that.
Speaker 8 (09:25):
It's just it's too good, too good to be true.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well,
maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they
actually have a finding aid labeled astrology. Oh really, yeah, yeah,
because they have files that are, you know, touch on
the scandal. I asked them if I could see them,
and they said that they would have to take some
(09:52):
time to take all the staples out, but then they
could scan them and send them to me, and a
lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons
when it came out. Yeah, And there were transcripts of
press conferences where the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed.
All the reporters wanted to talk about was astrology.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
What is the deal?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You know, are they just deciding everything based on this?
You know, what can you tell us? And they didn't
want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating
was they had saved all of this correspondence from the
religious right, basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.
Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is May twenty seventh,
nineteen eighty eight, at the height of the controversy from
(10:33):
Don Reagan's book. This radio preacher named George Otis, who
was a friend of the Reagans, wrote directly to the
White House. Dear mister President, you've been a great chief
of state. You will recall how in October nineteen seventy
God spoke directly to you through myself there in your
Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came you were to
become president of the United States. This May have been
(10:54):
the most remarkable visitation from the Lord of any president
in history. You were handpicked for leadership in one of
our nation's most pivotal hours. Wow, no pressure, right, And
so he was saying, I beg you to renounce the
practice of astrology in the White House. To make a
statement now would be an act of courage and pleasing
to God. But if you fail to do so, you
(11:14):
legitimize astrology and the occult and set our nation on
a collision course with God.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle
when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy
on what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as
a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and
prophesizes that Reagan has to be the next president because
God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't
(11:45):
bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction
that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should
be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but
threatened for believing in the other. It reminds me of
this feeling I had as a kid. Totally the opposite
of my dad's optimism about who was allowed to be president.
(12:10):
The fact that I was born brown and Hindu, that
I had a name that was unpronounceable, it seemingly crippled
my chances from the start. I mean, the Indian kids
who were ten years older than me and wanted to
be politicians, the Bobby Jindles and Nicky Hayley's, they always
seem to convert to Christianity and change their names along
(12:30):
the way.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
You know, I wish I could tell you I had
this son to epiphany.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
There was no moment on that road to Damascus was
that easy for me.
Speaker 9 (12:37):
Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed
a connection, and so no political pressure should never change
a person.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I am my parents' daughter. Maybe that's why I'm so
interested in Ronald Reagan, because even though he's seen as
this ultimate American, this American mascot for.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
Those who have abandoned the whole, we'll restore hope and
we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make
America great again.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that
doesn't feel American at all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke
this story of astrology. In the White House, Ronald Reagan
and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking
to a press conference in the Rose Garden.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Look, the President, will you continue to allow astrology to
play a part in the makeup of your old ChEls?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Knock it off?
Speaker 8 (13:36):
There?
Speaker 6 (13:38):
You asked for it. I can't because I never did.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
This is not the man I watched in first grade
reminding us that science can be heartbreak but is always progress.
I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen to this
from May seventeen, nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 7 (13:58):
This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we
made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our
lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone
who does but believe in it.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
So right there, he takes a moment to make sure
he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology, and then
a reporter pounces you.
Speaker 7 (14:25):
I don't guide my life by it, but I won't
answer the question the other way because I don't know
enough about it to say is there something to it?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Or belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing sometimes
belief is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils
of influence. Like it's not some hard and fast tenets.
I mean, you hear it in Reagan's words, right, Like
talking about belief is so hard that one of the
most gifted politicians stumbles through his answer and he twists
(14:59):
his words into some thinks so convoluted it barely has
meaning anymore. Except Reagan is not being honest here, because
astrology had definitely played a role in his daily and
his political life. And you don't have to take our
word for it, you can take his straight from his
nineteen sixty five autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks
(15:23):
and investigate right after this break.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
About the hearty got chum head.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Chapter two, what would Nancy do? The strange thing is,
for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest in astrology was an
open secret, or at least it had been. Astrology was
this California thing, and it was also a showbiz thing,
and the Reagans and their friends they enjoyed rubbing shoulders
(16:10):
with people like La Times astrologer Carol Ryder because, like
People Magazine put it, writer was the confidante of the
rich and famous who saw him less as a backdoor
suitsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the
fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in
his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a
live line for a Leo party. As Ronald wrote in
(16:33):
his nineteen sixty five autobiography Where's the Rest of Me,
every morning Nancy and I turned to see what he
has to say about people of our respective birth signs, horoscopes,
and astrology. It was no big deal and a part
of their daily morning routine. They liked to check in
and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and
(16:54):
they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started
paying writer for his astrologically. Then came the election in
late nineteen sixty six. After Ronald Reagan won the governor's race,
he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically at twelve
(17:14):
sixteen am on January second, nineteen sixty seven. The timing
of this did not make any sense unless you were
looking at the stars. It turns out that exact time
corresponded to Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting
your term at that moment would make it blessed prosperous.
(17:37):
When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story,
he leaked it to the press, and Reagan's team immediately
went into spin mode. Right, so, Reagan had a spokesperson
tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer
even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse
to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope
by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part
(18:01):
of all this, like the reason we're talking about this,
It means that Don Reagan's book wasn't even the president's
first astrology related scandal. But let's talk about Nancy.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
When I started looking into this, the first place I
looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear
her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and
it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Reagan's book
the year prior, and she basically disputed everything he said
and down played the role that her astrologer friend played
in the president's life, in her life, in everything, and
(18:37):
she said it was only minor schedule changes and it
only came about because she was so worried for her
husband's safety after the assassination attempt in nineteen eighty one,
and that she was driven to do this out of
a sense of duty and guilt.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
If you really want to trace the influence of astrology
on the White House, this is the moment that Nancy
Reagan started casting about for help. And it was her
friend MERV Griffin.
Speaker 9 (19:00):
Good morning everybody, and welcome to We Report you. I'd
like her.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I know Susan Stafford, our host.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Is got.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to
Joan quickly.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Joan quickly was this Vasser graduate. She was very smart.
She came from a very wealthy knob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially,
Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's
lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As
all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck
to the party line that well, no, I didn't have
(19:32):
that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I
think at that point Joan was like, screw you, Nancy.
You know it's me time now.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world right,
she was going to take advantage of it, and so
she started telling the story that in fact she had
controlled everything.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to
appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing
the Cold War. But the question in just how influential
was she and how much did she have the president's
ear on foreign policy. But before we talk about Nancy's friend,
(20:14):
Chapter three a short and incomplete list of modern politicians
who used astrology. If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer
on major American issues, how would you feel would you
vote for an astrology believer? We interrupted the New York
City dinner party to ask that very same question.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
It would feel more like the president was just rolling
the dice if that was how he was making decisions.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used
astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think
that they were very wise.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think that is absolutely no connection between being a
great president and reading d the stars.
Speaker 9 (21:08):
It's just not politically correct.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not
make him an outlier here's a list of modern politicians
who read their horoscope and checked it twice.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Why where.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he band
soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup,
but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jene Dixon, who,
to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK
and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer. And
not only did Jean visit him in the White House,
(21:50):
but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.
In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned of
a threat on American soil to the munich Olympics, Nixon
used her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a
counter terrorism unit.
Speaker 7 (22:08):
For esay.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
The only thing I remember about Boris Yelson is that
one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused
this international incident because he left the White House grounds
drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late
night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But
(22:31):
Yeltsin was also an astrology head during his presidency. A
naval captain revealed to the economists, that Russia had a
secret institute that employed quote military astrologers, three friends when
the French president's wife made accusations that Midrand was only
(22:53):
interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her.
The astrologer a former model and actress. Really, these tapes
of their conversations show that they had a purely professional relationship,
And on these tapes were incredible things like Mitteran trying
to understand the power struggles in Russia through astrology. He
was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously,
(23:17):
he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's
role and entry into the Gulf War. Anyway, all that's
to say that a handful of astrologers have had way
more sway on world events than any of us would
(23:38):
like to think.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
You know, I know, you know, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Chapter four, What would Joan do? If we're to believe Joan? Quickly?
What are the many thing she helped make happen was
Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to
have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing
of Reagan's cancer surgery. But perhaps most importantly, quickly takes
(24:13):
credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikyle Gorbachev,
as reported in The New York Times, quickly battled to
the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that
her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, quote, the
placement of his ruler Mercury symbolizes to me that despite
his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of
(24:36):
a humanitarian. Joan also commitced the President to work towards
disarmament and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer
out in agreement.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigly
actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that
was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so
I think everybody is pretty much an agreement that, yes,
Joan quickly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be
a good idea to go anywhere that for safety's sake,
you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe
(25:08):
fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later,
and that'll be safer for you. And nobody really had
a problem with that. Then it kind of shades into
this thing of like, well, if he's not making a
public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right
because that affects what he's able to do as president.
And certainly Joan coming out and saying that she literally
(25:30):
told him that, based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart,
that they should sit down and talk.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I mean that's really explosive. Well, especially at the time,
right like where height of the Cold War, there's like
nuclear proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and
people are worried that someone will hit a button and
cause the end of the earth. Like that's the idea
of talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
People were very upset at the idea that this random
astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so
much at stay.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was
this just going to his wife? What's the deal here?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So that was sort of the other question. Was this
Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She
had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her
hapless husband who loved her so much he would just
do whatever she wanted.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Just to quick aside. Nancy Reagan was indeed ambitious for
her husband, incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said that had
Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would have won
an Academy award, and Reagan's aides admit this too. They
say that without Nancy there would have been no Governor Reagan,
no President Reagan.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
She absolutely took a lot of heat for allegedly being
the power behind the throne, and so when this came
out that it was Nancy's friend making these calls, that
was more evidence that she was actually controlling him.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Chapter five, Sympathy for the Devil. Earlier in the show,
we skimmed over the fact that there was an assassination
attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he was leaving a speech
and walking to his limo, John Hinckley Junior, a delusional
individual who was trying to impress Jodi Foster, pulled out
a Rome RG fourteen twenty two caliber and he shot
(27:35):
it six times in less than two seconds. The first
five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary
Jim Brady in the head, another hidden agent in the stomach.
As he put his body on the line. But as
(27:57):
the Secret Service pushed the President into the limo, final
bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the President's lung
and lodging just twenty five millimeters from his heart. A
few people would know just how close he'd come to death.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
As the President.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Left side Hotel Regan. It's currently where the president.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
At as.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
It happened early in his presidency, on March thirtieth, nineteen
eighty one. And the truth is, in most discussions of
Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over. In his obituary in the
New York Times, the shooting isn't even mentioned until the
twenty fifth paragraph. So in the scope of things, it
(28:51):
just isn't thought about that much. But for Nancy Reagan,
it was something entirely different. Right, This was something she
could ever ever forget. As I was trying to sort
through all of this and put Nancy in context, Mary
(29:14):
sent me one more clip Nancy's appearance on The Tonight
Show with Johnny Carson.
Speaker 6 (29:25):
Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired
of answering that question.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
No, that's one of the things you know.
Speaker 7 (29:30):
That when to hit the papers.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Wow, I know, if you're looking at the video, Nancy
so clearly doesn't want to talk about this, but she will.
I know she's a trained actor. I know she's good
at playing the role of first lady. But still hearing
her say why she put faith in astrology, why she
needed to put faith in it, Well, it breaks your
(29:52):
heart where it breaks mine.
Speaker 9 (29:55):
You can't really describe what you go through, uh, when
your husband is shot and almost dies, and most people
didn't know that there were there were there were two
times that they came to me and said they couldn't
find his pulse. He was very close to going in
to shock and if he had, and that would have
(30:18):
been it. Now, everybody has their way of handling that
particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma
is it's is very special. And I talked to my minister,
I talked to friends, and then I had a friend
call me and say, gee, they she he had talked
(30:40):
to this girl and woman and she could have told
me that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And I thought, my lord, I could have.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
Prevented it, you know, And so I called her. I
didn't think I was doing anything, so wrong, and I
still don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped
me through a very really a very rough time, very
tough time.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell
their story, the way they talk about astrology that doesn't
really add up, from the governor's oath to the idea
that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident,
to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quickly had met the Reagans
before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But
(31:27):
none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy
was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year,
there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul
the Second's life. Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed,
and world leaders really were under threat. Nancy's guilt it
kicked in because of all this, like why wouldn't she
(31:50):
try everything in her power to do that?
Speaker 9 (31:52):
But the changes there were may were things like would
be better to leave that two o'clock or I mean,
you know, there wasn't any great and there were no
political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody
except I embarrassed Ronnie that was sorry for that.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of
a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore because
faced with the option to do nothing or do something,
Nancy picked up the phones and work. Then she found
the best astrologer she could. She color coded her husband's calendar.
She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details
(32:41):
of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her
husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she
poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because
I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I
really didn't sure. I raced to see him. I tussled
(33:02):
his hair, I kissed his head, I dressed and shaved him.
I walked him to him from the bathroom. When he
was too weak to lift himself up from his chair,
I helped his frail body in and out of bed
and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his
socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm
when he napped, and I fetched his pulp mystery books
(33:23):
and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachios. I sat in
the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans,
and I put chips of ice into his mouth just
to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And
when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working,
I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and
(33:46):
brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe
his last breadth at home. I tried, I really did.
I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way
my mom and sister. I didn't hunt for an ira
A cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a
(34:07):
bet on the magical because my belief is limited to
what I understand, and I'll live with that. Gil not
that there's any logic to it, because even if I
didn't believe, my dad did and couldn't, I have put
aside my pride to give him everything, because everything is
(34:30):
what he gave me. Next week on Skyline Drive more
(35:00):
Being Sad next week is one hundred percent fun. We
are talking to moneyball statisticians who use astrology CNN's house astrologer.
They used to have a house astrologer.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Astrology in law school and BTS. That's right, We're going
to use astrology to figure out Korean supergroup BTS's next steps.
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
I can't see into the future, but I can promise
it will be fun.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Bonetta Pictures, maybe Jovo Sadi Kendrick Becker.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
To thank you so much for listening. This show is
written by Taffy Brodesser Achner Executive produced by Taffy prodess
Or Akner, based on a book by Taffy Brodesser. I'm
so sorry these are credits for Fleischman is in trouble
and reading the wrong credits.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
That's a fantastic show. Go stream it after this.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
This show, Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope and
iHeart Podcast. It's hosted and written by me Mongish particular.
But you would not have made it to the third
episode if.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
It wasn't for all these lovely people.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Mary Philip Sandy is our Kanji loving supervising producer, and
she's now.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Read every book in the world about the Reagans. Go Quizzer.
Mitro Bunschai is our delightful senior producer and gets the
best wild tape seriously.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Mark Lotto is our story editor.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
And made me move Nancy Reagan from a single paragraph
in episode one to her own episode, and this show
is so much better for it. This episode was mixed
and mastered all the way in Bangalore by the talented
groove Shiva Rau, with scoring as always from Botany.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Check out his SoundCloud.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
The insane music in between his courtesy of the dopest
Indian record label, Azabi Records, and my pal Jimanchu Suri
and so many other musicians. If you want to hear
all of this music, you linked to a mixtape in
the show notes, go listen In the kids, The kids
were so great, right Numbers and politicians voiced by my
(37:05):
Dean Street neighbors Reese, the resident pizza expert, Leev, the
resident panda expert, Miriam who does the best Broadway show
tunes in my backyard, and Yuki, who is very very
good at pointing out snails.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Also my very sweet and very noisy roommates, Henry and Ruby.
Special thanks to my remarkable neighbor and counsel Rachel Strom
for vetting this episode, and the Reagan Library, the four
Your Ears Only Newsweek on Air collection, and Carson Entertainment
Group for all of their incredible archive.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Thank you so much. Additional production and research support from
the wonderful Anna Rubanova soundboard, Lizzie the Natural, QB Jacobs,
my talented aunts Simon Buckshee and notorious snooker Hustler are
June Bucksheet. This show is executive produced from iHeart by
my good good friends Nicki Tour and Katrina Norvel. Also
(37:59):
all my brilliant Power else Like Kaleidoscope, Ozwa Lishan, Kate Osbourne,
Costos Linos Bahmi Shori, and also Cheesy it feels like
Cheesy needs a shout out right okay special thanks to
all my friends at iHeart, Shanta and Soros, my family everywhere,
Dan Tabirsky Dan Tibirski read this episode's warning. Today I
got into podcasting true story. I binged all four episodes
(38:22):
of Missing Richard Simmons because there were only four out
at the time, and I've binged every one of his
other shows to Running from Cops, Surviving Y two, k
the Line. It is all so incredibly good and just
one last thank you as always to my Amma and
my dad, Lalifa and Umesh who I have to thank
my lucky stars for thank you so much for listening
Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers,
Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a
disastrous late night pizza party. Also astrology sensitive listeners. Keep
your tones handy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Sometimes I got games.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Sometimes I'm mad shot, Sometimes I'm mad lame.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Sometimes I'm mad flying.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Sometimes I'm so flying the bay.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I'm hellafly.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Sometimes I'll get fraud and.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
It'll be televised.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slideshow, and
this time it's about hul Cogan. This is hul Cogan's
Rock and wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was
supposed to like Haulkogan, and sometimes I even pretended to
like Hulkogan, even though I was not a fan, but
(01:10):
I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they
were on. This is the only rock and wrestling episode
I remember. The President wants to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes, sir, your country is depending on you, Holster.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Don't let us down in it. The President like this cartoon.
Ronald Reagan asked Hulkogan to go to space to rescue
astronauts before a shuttle explodes. The cartoon is seared in
my brain because it aired not long after the Challenger disaster. Well,
I'll what was it like being the first wrestler in space?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I tell you, bang, it was more awesome than a
combat zong.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulkogan can
probably open a cargo bay door? Because I mean, I
know he's strong, But even in cartoon form, this seemed dumb.
And I was seven at the time. But maybe the
makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they were doing something
to help calm kids' nerves.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
And I want to say something to the school children
of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes
painful things like this happen.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
That's the actual Ronald Gray again. The day after the
Challenger exploded, our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into
our classroom so the President could talk to us directly.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
It's all part of taking a chance of expanding man's horizons.
The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted belongs to the brave.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America
right and to preserve hope in the face of something
so devastating, so visible. Anyway, what does any of this
have to do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the
(03:19):
only time Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space
and the future. That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And
it turns out in the nineteen eighties there was a
full on astrology scandal in the Reagan White House.
Speaker 7 (03:37):
I don't mean to offend anyone who does, but believe
in it, or engage you believe in it.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts, I'm Mongay's Shittiku. Welcome to
Skyline Drive, chapter one. When God's powerful word came.
Speaker 8 (04:42):
Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.
A few months ago I told the American people I
did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my
best intentions still tell me that's true, But the facts
and the evidence tell me it is.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Not.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable, like
frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three
million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen
years interviewing and shadowing Reagan, but when he turned in
his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.
(05:20):
And when he was asked why he did that with
his manuscript on sixty Minutes, Morris said, he was truly
one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around
him understood him. I every person I interviewed, almost without exception,
eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure
him out. Think about that. Fourteen years of access and
(05:44):
Morris couldn't figure out how to accurately write about the
man and what he stood for. And maybe that's why
my mom and dad had such different opinions of Reagan.
To my dad, a newly minted American, Reagan was proof
that anyone could make it in America, an actor becoming president.
I mean, that's the optimism of an immigrant, someone who
(06:06):
genuinely believed his son's potential was limitless in this new land.
But to my mom, who was not a fan of
his policies, Reagan's supposed an interest in astrology made her
like him more because it made him more like us.
And Reagan's interest in astrology was just this thing I
always knew about growing up, but as I grew older,
(06:29):
I began to question it, like it kind of seemed
too outlandish. To be true. So I asked my pal
Mary if she could find anything more concrete about this
whole story. Actually, before we dive into the controversat I
just wanted to ask you. I feel really lucky to
have you in this project, but I'm curious why you
(06:49):
did it, because you don't believe in astrology.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, you're very persuasive.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and
I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when
I pitched this tour, but I can.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I can learn about things without believing in them. I
figure it's an opportunity to go down a path I
would not ordinarily go down.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Do you know what your sign is?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I found out I'm a cancer. I thought I was
a Gemini. Oh really, turns out I'm a cancer.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
So I wroped you into this thing with astrology, and
then I said, hey, I really want to look into
Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much
as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of
Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and
seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. My
parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during the eighties,
so I had a very different experience. So it didn't
(07:48):
seem to really add up my understanding of Ronald Reagan
and my understanding of astrology. That didn't really make any sense.
And so that was why I figured it would be
really interesting to find out what actually happened.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So, like, what was the sort of controversy that made
everyone suddenly start talking about it?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So this is really juicy. There's this guy Don Reagan
who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan, and
he had been the chairman of Merrill Lynch for a
long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the
architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff
and he left the White House. He got kicked out,
and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.
(08:25):
And so he turned around and wrote a tell all
book in nineteen eighty eight, called for the record, and
apparently he got a million dollar advance, which was huge
money at the time.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Million dollars.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he
was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him
to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from
a friend, quote quote. He even said he had to
keep a color coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days,
(08:56):
bad days, if he days for the president's travel. His
public appearance says all of this, and the press went crazy.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
The Reagan's and their stars. Astrologically speaking, did Donald Reagan
get his ex bosses Capricorn? That is goat? Or is
it all a load of Taurus?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
If President Richard Nixon?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Towards the end, the claim was I am not a
crook with Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Last week it was more like I am.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Not a nut?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon?
It's a story like.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
That, Yeah, it is. I consider that.
Speaker 8 (09:25):
It's just it's too good, too good to be true.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well,
maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they
actually have a finding aid labeled astrology. Oh really, yeah, yeah,
because they have files that are, you know, touch on
the scandal. I asked them if I could see them,
and they said that they would have to take some
(09:52):
time to take all the staples out, but then they
could scan them and send them to me, and a
lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons
when it came out. Yeah, And there were transcripts of
press conferences where the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed.
All the reporters wanted to talk about was astrology.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
What is the deal?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You know, are they just deciding everything based on this?
You know, what can you tell us? And they didn't
want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating
was they had saved all of this correspondence from the
religious right, basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.
Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is May twenty seventh,
nineteen eighty eight, at the height of the controversy from
(10:33):
Don Reagan's book. This radio preacher named George Otis, who
was a friend of the Reagans, wrote directly to the
White House. Dear mister President, you've been a great chief
of state. You will recall how in October nineteen seventy
God spoke directly to you through myself there in your
Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came you were to
become president of the United States. This May have been
(10:54):
the most remarkable visitation from the Lord of any president
in history. You were handpicked for leadership in one of
our nation's most pivotal hours. Wow, no pressure, right, And
so he was saying, I beg you to renounce the
practice of astrology in the White House. To make a
statement now would be an act of courage and pleasing
to God. But if you fail to do so, you
(11:14):
legitimize astrology and the occult and set our nation on
a collision course with God.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle
when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy
on what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as
a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and
prophesizes that Reagan has to be the next president because
God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't
(11:45):
bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction
that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should
be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but
threatened for believing in the other. It reminds me of
this feeling I had as a kid. Totally the opposite
of my dad's optimism about who was allowed to be president.
(12:10):
The fact that I was born brown and Hindu, that
I had a name that was unpronounceable, it seemingly crippled
my chances from the start. I mean, the Indian kids
who were ten years older than me and wanted to
be politicians, the Bobby Jindles and Nicky Hayley's, they always
seem to convert to Christianity and change their names along
(12:30):
the way.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
You know, I wish I could tell you I had
this son to epiphany.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
There was no moment on that road to Damascus was
that easy for me.
Speaker 9 (12:37):
Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed
a connection, and so no political pressure should never change
a person.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I am my parents' daughter. Maybe that's why I'm so
interested in Ronald Reagan, because even though he's seen as
this ultimate American, this American mascot for.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
Those who have abandoned the whole, we'll restore hope and
we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make
America great again.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that
doesn't feel American at all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke
this story of astrology. In the White House, Ronald Reagan
and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking
to a press conference in the Rose Garden.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Look, the President, will you continue to allow astrology to
play a part in the makeup of your old ChEls?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Knock it off?
Speaker 8 (13:36):
There?
Speaker 6 (13:38):
You asked for it. I can't because I never did.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
This is not the man I watched in first grade
reminding us that science can be heartbreak but is always progress.
I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen to this
from May seventeen, nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 7 (13:58):
This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we
made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our
lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone
who does but believe in it.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
So right there, he takes a moment to make sure
he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology, and then
a reporter pounces you.
Speaker 7 (14:25):
I don't guide my life by it, but I won't
answer the question the other way because I don't know
enough about it to say is there something to it?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Or belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing sometimes
belief is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils
of influence. Like it's not some hard and fast tenets.
I mean, you hear it in Reagan's words, right, Like
talking about belief is so hard that one of the
most gifted politicians stumbles through his answer and he twists
(14:59):
his words into some thinks so convoluted it barely has
meaning anymore. Except Reagan is not being honest here, because
astrology had definitely played a role in his daily and
his political life. And you don't have to take our
word for it, you can take his straight from his
nineteen sixty five autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks
(15:23):
and investigate right after this break.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
About the hearty got chum head.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Chapter two, what would Nancy do? The strange thing is,
for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest in astrology was an
open secret, or at least it had been. Astrology was
this California thing, and it was also a showbiz thing,
and the Reagans and their friends they enjoyed rubbing shoulders
(16:10):
with people like La Times astrologer Carol Ryder because, like
People Magazine put it, writer was the confidante of the
rich and famous who saw him less as a backdoor
suitsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the
fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in
his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a
live line for a Leo party. As Ronald wrote in
(16:33):
his nineteen sixty five autobiography Where's the Rest of Me,
every morning Nancy and I turned to see what he
has to say about people of our respective birth signs, horoscopes,
and astrology. It was no big deal and a part
of their daily morning routine. They liked to check in
and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and
(16:54):
they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started
paying writer for his astrologically. Then came the election in
late nineteen sixty six. After Ronald Reagan won the governor's race,
he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically at twelve
(17:14):
sixteen am on January second, nineteen sixty seven. The timing
of this did not make any sense unless you were
looking at the stars. It turns out that exact time
corresponded to Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting
your term at that moment would make it blessed prosperous.
(17:37):
When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story,
he leaked it to the press, and Reagan's team immediately
went into spin mode. Right, so, Reagan had a spokesperson
tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer
even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse
to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope
by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part
(18:01):
of all this, like the reason we're talking about this,
It means that Don Reagan's book wasn't even the president's
first astrology related scandal. But let's talk about Nancy.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
When I started looking into this, the first place I
looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear
her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and
it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Reagan's book
the year prior, and she basically disputed everything he said
and down played the role that her astrologer friend played
in the president's life, in her life, in everything, and
(18:37):
she said it was only minor schedule changes and it
only came about because she was so worried for her
husband's safety after the assassination attempt in nineteen eighty one,
and that she was driven to do this out of
a sense of duty and guilt.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
If you really want to trace the influence of astrology
on the White House, this is the moment that Nancy
Reagan started casting about for help. And it was her
friend MERV Griffin.
Speaker 9 (19:00):
Good morning everybody, and welcome to We Report you. I'd
like her.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I know Susan Stafford, our host.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Is got.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to
Joan quickly.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Joan quickly was this Vasser graduate. She was very smart.
She came from a very wealthy knob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially,
Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's
lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As
all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck
to the party line that well, no, I didn't have
(19:32):
that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I
think at that point Joan was like, screw you, Nancy.
You know it's me time now.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world right,
she was going to take advantage of it, and so
she started telling the story that in fact she had
controlled everything.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to
appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing
the Cold War. But the question in just how influential
was she and how much did she have the president's
ear on foreign policy. But before we talk about Nancy's friend,
(20:14):
Chapter three a short and incomplete list of modern politicians
who used astrology. If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer
on major American issues, how would you feel would you
vote for an astrology believer? We interrupted the New York
City dinner party to ask that very same question.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
It would feel more like the president was just rolling
the dice if that was how he was making decisions.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used
astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think
that they were very wise.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think that is absolutely no connection between being a
great president and reading d the stars.
Speaker 9 (21:08):
It's just not politically correct.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not
make him an outlier here's a list of modern politicians
who read their horoscope and checked it twice.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Why where.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he band
soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup,
but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jene Dixon, who,
to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK
and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer. And
not only did Jean visit him in the White House,
(21:50):
but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.
In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned of
a threat on American soil to the munich Olympics, Nixon
used her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a
counter terrorism unit.
Speaker 7 (22:08):
For esay.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
The only thing I remember about Boris Yelson is that
one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused
this international incident because he left the White House grounds
drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late
night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But
(22:31):
Yeltsin was also an astrology head during his presidency. A
naval captain revealed to the economists, that Russia had a
secret institute that employed quote military astrologers, three friends when
the French president's wife made accusations that Midrand was only
(22:53):
interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her.
The astrologer a former model and actress. Really, these tapes
of their conversations show that they had a purely professional relationship,
And on these tapes were incredible things like Mitteran trying
to understand the power struggles in Russia through astrology. He
was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously,
(23:17):
he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's
role and entry into the Gulf War. Anyway, all that's
to say that a handful of astrologers have had way
more sway on world events than any of us would
(23:38):
like to think.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
You know, I know, you know, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Chapter four, What would Joan do? If we're to believe Joan? Quickly?
What are the many thing she helped make happen was
Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to
have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing
of Reagan's cancer surgery. But perhaps most importantly, quickly takes
(24:13):
credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikyle Gorbachev,
as reported in The New York Times, quickly battled to
the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that
her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, quote, the
placement of his ruler Mercury symbolizes to me that despite
his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of
(24:36):
a humanitarian. Joan also commitced the President to work towards
disarmament and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer
out in agreement.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigly
actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that
was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so
I think everybody is pretty much an agreement that, yes,
Joan quickly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be
a good idea to go anywhere that for safety's sake,
you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe
(25:08):
fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later,
and that'll be safer for you. And nobody really had
a problem with that. Then it kind of shades into
this thing of like, well, if he's not making a
public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right
because that affects what he's able to do as president.
And certainly Joan coming out and saying that she literally
(25:30):
told him that, based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart,
that they should sit down and talk.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I mean that's really explosive. Well, especially at the time,
right like where height of the Cold War, there's like
nuclear proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and
people are worried that someone will hit a button and
cause the end of the earth. Like that's the idea
of talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
People were very upset at the idea that this random
astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so
much at stay.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was
this just going to his wife? What's the deal here?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So that was sort of the other question. Was this
Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She
had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her
hapless husband who loved her so much he would just
do whatever she wanted.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Just to quick aside. Nancy Reagan was indeed ambitious for
her husband, incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said that had
Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would have won
an Academy award, and Reagan's aides admit this too. They
say that without Nancy there would have been no Governor Reagan,
no President Reagan.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
She absolutely took a lot of heat for allegedly being
the power behind the throne, and so when this came
out that it was Nancy's friend making these calls, that
was more evidence that she was actually controlling him.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Chapter five, Sympathy for the Devil. Earlier in the show,
we skimmed over the fact that there was an assassination
attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he was leaving a speech
and walking to his limo, John Hinckley Junior, a delusional
individual who was trying to impress Jodi Foster, pulled out
a Rome RG fourteen twenty two caliber and he shot
(27:35):
it six times in less than two seconds. The first
five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary
Jim Brady in the head, another hidden agent in the stomach.
As he put his body on the line. But as
(27:57):
the Secret Service pushed the President into the limo, final
bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the President's lung
and lodging just twenty five millimeters from his heart. A
few people would know just how close he'd come to death.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
As the President.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Left side Hotel Regan. It's currently where the president.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
At as.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
It happened early in his presidency, on March thirtieth, nineteen
eighty one. And the truth is, in most discussions of
Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over. In his obituary in the
New York Times, the shooting isn't even mentioned until the
twenty fifth paragraph. So in the scope of things, it
(28:51):
just isn't thought about that much. But for Nancy Reagan,
it was something entirely different. Right, This was something she
could ever ever forget. As I was trying to sort
through all of this and put Nancy in context, Mary
(29:14):
sent me one more clip Nancy's appearance on The Tonight
Show with Johnny Carson.
Speaker 6 (29:25):
Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired
of answering that question.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
No, that's one of the things you know.
Speaker 7 (29:30):
That when to hit the papers.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Wow, I know, if you're looking at the video, Nancy
so clearly doesn't want to talk about this, but she will.
I know she's a trained actor. I know she's good
at playing the role of first lady. But still hearing
her say why she put faith in astrology, why she
needed to put faith in it, Well, it breaks your
(29:52):
heart where it breaks mine.
Speaker 9 (29:55):
You can't really describe what you go through, uh, when
your husband is shot and almost dies, and most people
didn't know that there were there were there were two
times that they came to me and said they couldn't
find his pulse. He was very close to going in
to shock and if he had, and that would have
(30:18):
been it. Now, everybody has their way of handling that
particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma
is it's is very special. And I talked to my minister,
I talked to friends, and then I had a friend
call me and say, gee, they she he had talked
(30:40):
to this girl and woman and she could have told
me that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And I thought, my lord, I could have.
Speaker 9 (30:48):
Prevented it, you know, And so I called her. I
didn't think I was doing anything, so wrong, and I
still don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped
me through a very really a very rough time, very
tough time.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell
their story, the way they talk about astrology that doesn't
really add up, from the governor's oath to the idea
that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident,
to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quickly had met the Reagans
before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But
(31:27):
none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy
was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year,
there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul
the Second's life. Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed,
and world leaders really were under threat. Nancy's guilt it
kicked in because of all this, like why wouldn't she
(31:50):
try everything in her power to do that?
Speaker 9 (31:52):
But the changes there were may were things like would
be better to leave that two o'clock or I mean,
you know, there wasn't any great and there were no
political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody
except I embarrassed Ronnie that was sorry for that.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of
a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore because
faced with the option to do nothing or do something,
Nancy picked up the phones and work. Then she found
the best astrologer she could. She color coded her husband's calendar.
She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details
(32:41):
of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her
husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she
poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because
I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I
really didn't sure. I raced to see him. I tussled
(33:02):
his hair, I kissed his head, I dressed and shaved him.
I walked him to him from the bathroom. When he
was too weak to lift himself up from his chair,
I helped his frail body in and out of bed
and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his
socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm
when he napped, and I fetched his pulp mystery books
(33:23):
and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachios. I sat in
the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans,
and I put chips of ice into his mouth just
to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And
when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working,
I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and
(33:46):
brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe
his last breadth at home. I tried, I really did.
I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way
my mom and sister. I didn't hunt for an ira
A cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a
(34:07):
bet on the magical because my belief is limited to
what I understand, and I'll live with that. Gil not
that there's any logic to it, because even if I
didn't believe, my dad did and couldn't, I have put
aside my pride to give him everything, because everything is
(34:30):
what he gave me. Next week on Skyline Drive more
(35:00):
Being Sad next week is one hundred percent fun. We
are talking to moneyball statisticians who use astrology CNN's house astrologer.
They used to have a house astrologer.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Astrology in law school and BTS. That's right, We're going
to use astrology to figure out Korean supergroup BTS's next steps.
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
I can't see into the future, but I can promise
it will be fun.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Bonetta Pictures, maybe Jovo Sadi Kendrick Becker.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
To thank you so much for listening. This show is
written by Taffy Brodesser Achner Executive produced by Taffy prodess
Or Akner, based on a book by Taffy Brodesser. I'm
so sorry these are credits for Fleischman is in trouble
and reading the wrong credits.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
That's a fantastic show. Go stream it after this.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
This show, Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope and
iHeart Podcast. It's hosted and written by me Mongish particular.
But you would not have made it to the third
episode if.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
It wasn't for all these lovely people.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
Mary Philip Sandy is our Kanji loving supervising producer, and
she's now.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Read every book in the world about the Reagans. Go Quizzer.
Mitro Bunschai is our delightful senior producer and gets the
best wild tape seriously.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Mark Lotto is our story editor.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
And made me move Nancy Reagan from a single paragraph
in episode one to her own episode, and this show
is so much better for it. This episode was mixed
and mastered all the way in Bangalore by the talented
groove Shiva Rau, with scoring as always from Botany.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Check out his SoundCloud.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
The insane music in between his courtesy of the dopest
Indian record label, Azabi Records, and my pal Jimanchu Suri
and so many other musicians. If you want to hear
all of this music, you linked to a mixtape in
the show notes, go listen In the kids, The kids
were so great, right Numbers and politicians voiced by my
(37:05):
Dean Street neighbors Reese, the resident pizza expert, Leev, the
resident panda expert, Miriam who does the best Broadway show
tunes in my backyard, and Yuki, who is very very
good at pointing out snails.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Also my very sweet and very noisy roommates, Henry and Ruby.
Special thanks to my remarkable neighbor and counsel Rachel Strom
for vetting this episode, and the Reagan Library, the four
Your Ears Only Newsweek on Air collection, and Carson Entertainment
Group for all of their incredible archive.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Thank you so much. Additional production and research support from
the wonderful Anna Rubanova soundboard, Lizzie the Natural, QB Jacobs,
my talented aunts Simon Buckshee and notorious snooker Hustler are
June Bucksheet. This show is executive produced from iHeart by
my good good friends Nicki Tour and Katrina Norvel. Also
(37:59):
all my brilliant Power else Like Kaleidoscope, Ozwa Lishan, Kate Osbourne,
Costos Linos Bahmi Shori, and also Cheesy it feels like
Cheesy needs a shout out right okay special thanks to
all my friends at iHeart, Shanta and Soros, my family everywhere,
Dan Tabirsky Dan Tibirski read this episode's warning. Today I
got into podcasting true story. I binged all four episodes
(38:22):
of Missing Richard Simmons because there were only four out
at the time, and I've binged every one of his
other shows to Running from Cops, Surviving Y two, k
the Line. It is all so incredibly good and just
one last thank you as always to my Amma and
my dad, Lalifa and Umesh who I have to thank
my lucky stars for thank you so much for listening
Part-Time Genius News
Hosts And Creators
Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
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