July 7, 2026 • 28 mins
It’s a Part-Time Genius x Skyline Drive: How to Live Forever crossover episode! Places like Ikaria, Greece and Okinawa, Japan are said to hold the secret of longer, healthier life. But how did these so-called Blue Zones get discovered, and is their longevity power real or just a myth? What made them “blue”? (Spoiler, it has nothing to do with the ocean.) And why did the researchers behind the Blue Zones concept have a falling-out that sent them down two dramatically different paths?
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio. Hey there, How to Live Forever listeners. If
you haven't already listened to episodes one to four of
How to Live Forever, go ahead and do that. Now.
You're going to want to start with episode one, the
(00:23):
Longevanots and go from there. It is a great time
to binge. It's always a great time to binge. Today's
Minnesota However, is a mashup a very special episode of
my other podcast, Part Time Genius, that is tailor made
for the How to Live Forever crowd, and it's even
featuring producer Mary from both shows, who's co hosting with me.
(00:46):
And next week we'll be back with episode five of
How to Live Forever. We're going to try to solve
the mystery of what's really happening at the very dark
edges of longevity science. It's a great episode, but for now,
enjoy this minisode. We hope you dig it. Guess what Mary?
What's that?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Mangosh or should I call you Mango?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I mean whatever you want. I know this is a
crossover episode, but I love that different people from different
parts of my life call me slightly different variations of
my name, Like people in Delaware call me Mangesh, people
from people from like Mango is mostly a college name,
which is why i Will calls me that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And I always wondered where that came from.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Okay, yeah, mangaroo. Mangaroo did not know about There's so
many nick kames. But you are interrupting my facts, so
I'm gonna keep going. Did you know that if an
Italian statistician had grabbed a different pen, the way we
talk about extreme longevity would be very different.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's just one of those butterfly effect things where some
random little event triggers a chain reaction that changes the
course of history.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Or No, this is a direct cause and effect. And
I'm talking about blues zones, which are those scattered points
around the globe where people are said to live an
insanely long time, like sometimes even one hundred and twenty years.
And it all began when Gianni Pez and Italian researcher
teamed up with a Belgian demographer named Michelle Pulane to
(02:16):
study aging in Sardinia, an island off the coast of
Italy where people supposedly live longer than other parts of
the country. Now. We'll talk more about the project in
a bit, but this detail was just so funny to
be so. As the pair was driving around the island
checking the residents, ages Pez marked a map with a
blue pen to indicate places where the centenarians lived. So
(02:38):
in two thousand and four, when they published a paper
about their research, they referred to a section of the
island with lots of one hundred year olds as the
blue zone.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That was a lucky choice, right, I mean, a green
zone just sounds like white, a place where they're really
diligent about recycling, you.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Know, very earth conscious. Yeah, and a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Red zone just sounds terrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I guess if they thought to bring a highlight or
we could all be talking about the health benefits of
like a neon yellow zone, which I think would be fun.
But it is blue zones, and for decades people who
have been obsessed with them. There's something so appealing about
this idea that certain places have cracked the longevity code,
not through high tech science, but actually through traditional lifestyles.
(03:22):
And I'll admit that at first I wanted to look
into blue zones because I daydream about running off to
an island in the Mediterranean, napping on a beach instead
of sitting in meetings, you know, all in the name
of living a more peaceful and longer life. But it
turns out the story of the Blue Zones is a
little more complicated than that, and possibly more misleading than
(03:44):
I thought. So let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners,
(04:08):
welcome to Skyline Drive How to Live Forever, and welcome
to part time genius. I am mongas particular. Today I'm
joined by producer Mary, who's been helping out with Skyline Drive.
Hey Mary, Hey, my gosh.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah. So, over the past few months, we've been doing
a ton of research about longevity, from the breakthroughs that
are happening right now, like literal brains in petrie dishes
that help treat Alzheimer's disease, to the ways people thought
about longevity in the past, to what the future might hold.
And in fact, we found so many great stories we
couldn't fit them all in the regular episodes, which is
(04:42):
why we're here today to talk about the Blue Zones.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That is absolutely correct. It's been a lot of fun
and pretty crazy too. But where do you think we
should start.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, before we get into the origin of blue Zones.
I think we should do some context, and that means
going back to the nineteen sixties and the Republic of Azerbaijan,
which at the time was part of the Soviet Union.
And what happened was a photojournalist reported on an Azerbaijani
shepherd named Shiri Lei Muslimov, who was allegedly one hundred
(05:12):
and fifty eight years old. That set off a flood
of reports claiming that there were multiple people over the
age of one hundred and fifty living in parts of
Azerbaijan and nearby Georgia, not places that are normally in
the news a lot right right, and it was a
worldwide sensation. Even US outlets like Life National Geographic sixty
(05:32):
minutes did a story. Now, obviously, very old individuals had
made the news before, but this time the implication was
that there was something unique about the region. Muslimv told
reporters that he owed his health to local traditions like
herding sheep and eating a lot of vegetables and yogurt.
The big food conglomerate Danin actually picked up on this
(05:54):
last detail and they ran ads featuring elderly Georgian farmers
eating little plastic cups of sweetened fruit yogurt.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I love the idea that, like, you could be living
for one hundred and fifty years and not get any
ad sponsorship deals, and then you know, you hit one
fifty eight and the yogurt company's cop running to you,
you get.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That yogurt bag. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
So this is obviously very funny, And obviously what Musli
Mov was referring to was a different type of yogurt,
not swedened fruit cups.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well, no, of course not. But you know grandma's homemade
yogurt won't make dan In any money, right, so they
ran with it. But the next thing that happened was
a Harvard physician named Alexander Leif launched a two year
study of people in a region of Georgia called ab Khazia,
as well as villages in Pakistan and Ecuador, where similar
longevity tales had emerged. Leif insisted that the places he
(06:47):
visited really did have clusters of people in their one
hundred and twenties, even one hundred and fifties, but his
work came under intense scrutiny. Critics targeted his reports from Abkhazia,
in particular on the grounds that the Soviet government just
wanted to spread propaganda about their extra healthy citizens to
gullible Westerners. Then a follow up study in Ecuador revealed
(07:08):
that locals had lied to leave, they were exaggerating their
ages in order to promote tourism, all of which meant
that from that point on, our desire to believe in
the idea of magically long lived villages would be tempered
by skepticism about magically long lived villages.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
And I'm sure so many people spent so much money
on yogurt and were just really depressed that their fridges
were filled with little cartons of dent on. So this
sets the stage for our blue pen carrying friend, Gianni
Pez and his partner Michelle Pulaine, who coined the phrase
blue zones. Now, this all began in nineteen ninety nine,
(07:48):
when Pez attended a conference to present research he'd done
on Sardinia. He claimed that not only had he found
unusually high numbers of centenarians there, the majority of them
were men, which is really really strange because women tend
to live longer than men in general. In part because
of the uproar that followed these field studies that Alexander
(08:08):
leif had done, people were immediately doubtful of the findings.
Michelle Poulaine, a Belgian demographer, happened to be at the conference,
and demographers are experts in validating age data. So some
of the other attendees were like, Michelle, you should go
and see if this crazy story checks out. So he did,
and Poulaine and Pez spent six months retracing Pez's travels
(08:32):
all around Sardinia, and that's where they made that famous
blue ink map. Now in the end, Poulaine concluded that
the data was correct. People in central Sardinia were almost
three times more likely to reach their one hundredth birthday
than people living elsewhere in Italy, which is incredible, it
really is.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But you know what's interesting to me is they could
have just stopped there. You know, that's a remarkable finding,
but they wanted to keep going and figure out if
there were other places in the world where people have
unusual longevity.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Right, that's right, And that's where their third collaborator comes in,
a science writer named Dan Butner. In two thousand and five,
Butner published a blockbuster national geographic cover story called The
Secrets of Long Life, and in it he featured Pez
and Poulaine's Blue Zone study of Sardinia, as well as
research from the island of Okinawa, Japan, and the small
(09:19):
town of Loma Linda, California. Now residents of these three places,
he wrote, quote, produce a high rate of centenarians and
enjoy more healthy years of life. They offer best practices
to emulate. The rest is up to you. This type
of thing is obviously just catnet for the general public.
Right he is saying, here are these beautiful, special places
(09:41):
where people are freakishly healthy and live a long time,
and you two can have what they have. And honestly,
the photos that accompany the story are really incredible. It's
hard not to be sucked in by the promise of it.
There's an eighty four year old doing a headstand on
a beach in Okinawa, A one hundred three year old
Sardinian man at a table with his family, enjoying a
(10:02):
leisurely meal of fresh pasta and wine.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh that sounds so good, I know.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, it just sounds so appealing. The head stands
less so the wine fast better speak for yourself. But
Beuter's piece got a lot of attention, and he connected
with Pez and Pulane, and the three of them decided
to team up and go on a quest to find
more Blue zones, which brings us to one of the
places we focus on in Skyline Drive, which is Ikorea.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Greece of course, where our friend George's family is from.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, and talk about idyllic beaches and delicious food. Right Like,
just hearing George described this slower pace of life there
and the community meals, I am totally sold on it.
And obviously, if you haven't listened to episode three of
Halalalve Forever, that's where we really get into this and
it's just such a beautiful story. But back to our
intrepid trio of Blue Zone researchers. They actually did more
(10:55):
legwork than just that. So to determine if a place
qualified as a Blue zone, they figured out how many
people born in a given year ended up living to
one hundred or more, and this ends up being a
painstaking process. It involves interviews and cross referencing birth and
death records, which you know aren't actually that easy to
track down. Once they were satisfied that a region had
(11:15):
an unusual proportion of people living into their hundreds, it
was declared a Blue Zone, and that's how Ikorea was
added to the official list in two thousand and eight,
along with Sardinia, Okinawa and Nikoya Peninsula, and Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know, maybe the common threat among these places is
that they all end with the letter A.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, you know, that hadn't even occurred to me. I
feel like if I'd only been living in DELAWAREA, they
made all the differens.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I don't know, I feel like I just made a breakthrough.
If any longevity researchers or investors would like to follow
up with me, I am prepared for a price to
discuss my research here. I'm happy to help. But anyway,
jokes aside. Through the mid aughts, as the Blue Zones
Trio did research in Koya and in Korea, they identified
other factors that these places had in common. And some
(12:05):
of it had to do with people's habits, like they
walked a lot and they weren't eating much of any
processed food. But it also had to do with the
big picture, like not being caught up in a rat
race and having a sense of purpose and being a
part of a community.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, it feels like
it really comes down to lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right, And when you decide that the thing you're researching
is a lifestyle, you can sell it. And now we're
getting into the tension that arose around the Blue Zones project.
In two thousand and eight, Dan Buttner created Blue Zones LLC,
which offers paid consulting services. Basically, the company advises communities
on how to promote walking, socializing, and healthy eating, and
(12:46):
if they follow the program, a town can be granted
the title of certified Blue Zones Community. Butner also trademarked
the name Blue Zones for commercial purposes, even though Pees
and Poulaine were the ones who'd come up with it.
And if you think that sounds like a conflict waiting
to happen, oh boy, are you right? We have to
(13:06):
take a quick break. But when we come back, we'll
tell you all about it.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
You can't see my mister burns fingers over here, just
waiting for waiting for the story. Welcome back. We are
(13:34):
talking about Blue Zones in this Skyline Drive how to
Live Forever slash Part Time Genius crossover episode, which I'm
so thrilled to be doing with you, Mary. It's really fun.
I realize it's kind of ridiculous to talk about doing
a crossover with myself. But that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Those what were those talent negotiations?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Like really difficult?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I bet well, speaking of things that are difficult, let's
get into the falling out among the three researchers who
popularized the idea of blue zones.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, so you were saying before the break, Dan Butner
was the one who really saw the commercial potential of
this concept, because even if you can't have the lifestyle
of a Greek villager, maybe you can buy a product
that makes you feel a bit more like them. And
according to Report and Science magazine, that put him at
odds with Jiohnny Pez and especially Michelle Poulaine. Apparently Poulaine
(14:28):
hadn't even realized Buner trademarked this term blue zones. And
the final straw came when Butner approached him about helping
with a lawsuit he wanted to bring against the luxury
brand Chanelle. Now, Chanelle had launched a product called Blue Serum,
which they claimed was made with ingredients from global blue zones.
Butner wanted to go after them for trademark infringement, and
(14:50):
that's when Poulaine put his foot down. He felt the
whole thing had strayed too far from the original goal
of demographic research, so they split up. Butner had his
Blue Zone's LLC business and website, and Polaine launched his
own website, Longevity Blue Zones. If you look at these
two websites, the difference is stark. In addition to Blue
(15:11):
Zones Communities consulting, Putner's website advertises the multiple books he's written,
with titles like The Blue Zone Solution and The Blue
Zones American Kitchen one hundred Recipes to Live to one hundred, Right, Like,
there's a lot he's done with this brand. There's also
a subscription meal planning service, hoodies that say Eat, Move, Love,
(15:32):
high end skincare products, and a line of Blue Zone
Kitchen branded frozen meals. Now. Michelle Pulaine's Longevity Blue Zones website,
on the other hand, will not sell you anything. It's
got nice photos of a goat standing off a cliff
overlooking the ocean, and then it's got links to the
original Blue Zones research. It also has some newer scientific
(15:55):
publications about place based longevity and that is it.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, you know, I I would pay for a nice
photo of a goat standing on a cliff. So I think, Michelle,
he's missing out, He's leaving money on the table. Yeah,
I mean that difference is really is really striking. But
you have to admit the self promo worked, right. Dan
Buttner has become the face of blue zones in popular
media today. He's the one who was featured in a
(16:20):
twenty twenty three Netflix docu series traveling to what he
calls the five original blue Zones. That's Okinawa, Sardinia, Nicoya,
I Korea, and Lo Malinda.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Lolinda ends in two a's, which is pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
My theory holds up. But actually this is a side
note about Lo Molinda. That's another point of disagreement. So
if you'll recall, this little town in California's Inland Empire
got caught up in the Blue Zone conversation because Buttner
had included it in his Big nat GEO cover story
back in two thousand and five. But he admitted later
(16:54):
he'd done that because his editor wanted the piece to
include a place in the United States.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
So they were kind of like manufacturing a place to
have us involvement in this. So there's nothing special about
Lo Molinda.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I did not say that, and I don't want to
start getting mail from people in Loolinda. I'm sure it's
a very special place, and actually a lot of people
do age well there, but that's because it's a Seventh
day Adventist community, and Adventist beliefs include a vegetarian diet
and strict rules against drinking and smoking. Plain has said
that it doesn't meet the criteria for a blue zone
because what it really is is a religious community, and
(17:28):
that's not the only confusion about which blue zones are
blue zones. Plaine added the French territory of Martinique to
his list in twenty twenty three. Buttner's list, which by
the way, does still include Lo Molnda, doesn't mention Martinique. However,
he's added Singapore, and he calls it an engineered longevity
hotspot or a blue zone two point zero. In other words,
(17:49):
unlike places where unusual longevity arose over time as people
practice their traditional ways of life, Singaporean longevity is by design.
They have universal healthcare, one of the best healthcare systems
in the world. Plus they have very strong laws against
drugs and guns. And as I say all of this,
I'm realizing that neither Martinique nor Singapore and in A,
(18:10):
but they do both end in E, which is close enough.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And you know, not only is there this dispute over
new blue zones, even the old ones are getting called
into question. So, as far as I can tell, Gianni
Pez doesn't have a blue zone's website of any kind,
but he is still working in the space, and last
year he published a paper in which he said that
due to westernization, he no longer considers Okinawa a blue zone.
(18:36):
He also said that Nikoya, the blue zone in Costa Rica,
is shrinking as people born there now have shorter life
expectancy than they used to. And I kind of get this.
If a traditional way of life is what makes blue
zones special, you know, it stands to reason that it
would change if the lifestyle changes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The changes in Okinawa in particular are really fascinating. Michelle
Poulaine has written about this as well. I read a
study he published with his collaborator Anne Herm, where basically
he concluded that there is a pattern of exceptional longevity
on Okinawa, but it's limited to people born before World
War Two. Later generations born after the war actually have
(19:15):
higher mortality rates than the rest of Japan and some
of the country's highest rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease,
liver disease. And there's probably a bunch of factors causing this,
including the post war American occupation of Okinawa, which lasted
until nineteen seventy two, among other things, people became dependent
on US army rations, and Polane speculates that this represented
(19:37):
a really abrupt shift in diet and lifestyle, which could
be more harmful to their health than a sort of
gradual evolution. He also noted that in the nineteen twenties,
an earthquake and the global recession led to periods of
famine on Okinawa, which obviously caused a lot of suffering.
But there are these links between calorie restriction and longevity.
(19:58):
We've seen it, We've heard this from any of the
scientists that we've spoken to. Or maybe it's just that
people who were predisposed to serious health problems didn't survive
the hard times to make it to old age.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It sounds like a classic case of there's just more
research needed.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, Yeah, that's pretty much what Pulaine and Herm concluded.
Of course, there are folks who believe that no amount
of research into so called blue zones is worthwhile, because
they say the data around extreme aging just does not
add up. One of the world's most vocal blue zone
critics is Saul Justin Newman. He is a senior researcher
at University College London's Center for Longitudinal Studies, and in
(20:38):
twenty twenty four he won the Ignoble Demography Prize. You
know the Ignobles, right, you know all about this?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Oh my gosh, I love the ignobles so much. You know,
we had been publishing them ever since I think they
first started. In Mental Floss we covered the Ignobles, and
I love that when people accept them, the crowd throws
paper airplanes onto the stage. But I think my favorite
thing about them is that it's like real scientific insights
(21:07):
that make you laugh and then kind of make you
think after it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Right, you get the best of both worlds. But the
paper that earned Newman the prize was a preprint. That is,
it hadn't yet been accepted by a peer reviewed publication.
So that's a little disclaimer. But let's play a quick game.
I'll tell you the first half of the paper's title,
and you guess what the second half is.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
All right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Super centenarian and remarkable age records exhibit patterns indicative of what.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Wait, repeat that slowly for me.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's super centenarian and remarkable age records exhibit patterns indicative of.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Unusual interest in group fitness classes such as zomba.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Oh no, no, not even close. Actually no, it's indicative
of clerical errors and pension fraud. Yeah. Newman has been
going around debunking claims about extreme age for almost two
decades now, and he says that his research has found
that almost all of the people who allegedly lived past
(22:12):
one hundred and ten didn't have birth or death certificates.
According to Newman, the vast majority of extreme aging cases
can be explained by paperwork errors. He points to Japan,
which in twenty ten launched an investigation of alleged centenarians
and found thousands of discrepancies. Some of them are cases
(22:34):
of fraud, that is, families who didn't register their loved
one's death in order to continue collecting pension payments. Others
were the result of errors in traditional handwritten family registries,
or just general postwar chaos. In Okinawa, for example, he
says there is a direct connection between alleged centenarians and
places that came under heavy US bombing, which meant that
(22:57):
buildings and the records in them got destroyed, and in
the aftermath people had to replace their documents via the
American occupying government. So not only were they re calling
names and dates from memory, they were trying to communicate
across pretty big language and cultural barriers. You know, you
tell them your name and your birth date, they write
it down wrong, and there you go. But it's not
(23:17):
just Japan. Newman says that if you dig into Greek data,
over two thirds of alleged centenarians are actually dead, missing,
or cases of pension fraud.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
So the old people other demographers encountered were they just
not as old as they thought they were.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, that's pretty much Newman's position. And the fact is,
accurate record keeping is a modern invention that hasn't been
applied in any consistent manner from country to country, or
even from region to region within a country. And as
someone who has spent a fair amount of time doing
archival research and fact checking, I can tell you that
even official documents are imperfect. It's not just fraud, you know,
(23:56):
good old human error can creep in. You transpose a
couple numbers, and all of a sudden, your great aunt
was born in nineteen twelve, not nineteen twenty one. It
happens a lot more often than you might realize. So
until scientists figure out an objective way to measure human
age that doesn't rely on records, Newman says, we should
just stop chasing the myth of extreme aging.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
You know, it is interesting that the Blue zones are
rural even compared to other regions of their countries, which
maybe supports that theory that the infrastructure for reliable record
keeping just wasn't there. And it also goes against some
of what we've learned about longevity and making sky and
drive right, Like a lot of positive health outcomes are
(24:36):
linked to having a higher income and greater healthcare access,
not living in relative poverty in a remote village. And
I guess that's what Dan Buner was getting at when
he was calling Singapore a blue zone two point zero.
But you know, if you go back to what Butner, Poulaine,
and Pez describe as the Blue Zones lifestyle factors, I
(24:57):
do think that has some merit. There's nothing crazy about
the idea that like diet and daily activity like those
things impact longevity, and I really appreciate that they emphasize
the importance of mental health and social connections too.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
None of that is flashy science. It's not a pill
or an injection that you can take, but it is
backed up by research. And I also think it's a
useful reminder for people, especially people making policy decisions, to
think about healthy aging in the context of how society functions.
When folks have things like a walkable community, places to socialize,
(25:33):
time for hobbies, local veggies, they're gonna be better off.
And you know what, this episode has inspired me that
this weekend, I'm going to take a walk to my
neighborhood farmer's market. I love it.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's like your own mini Blue Zone right here in
New York City.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I mean, I still do want to hang out on
a fusion in Korea though, so sure maybe. But in
the meantime, for those of you who don't know, at
the end of every Part Time Genius episode, we give
out a trophy and Mary tell me what you think
about this. I think today's trophy should go out to
every centenarian out there.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Are we going to check their birth certificates.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
No, absolutely not. We're podcasters and we don't have time
for that. We're just going to take their word for it.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, fair enough, So congratulations hundred plus year olds, even
if you're actually just ninety.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well that does it for us. Be sure to subscribe
to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever and Part Time
Genius wherever you get your podcasts. We love reviews, so
if you have the time to write as a review,
we'll absolutely take it on either show, both shows, if
you've got the time for it. And from Will, Dylan, Mary, Gabe,
and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time
(26:58):
Genius is a production of Colliscope and iHeartRadio. It is
hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known
for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.
I'm the ut co host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer
is Mary Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm
going to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,
(27:21):
who I've also known for like a decade at this point,
maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is
always dressed up, always cheering, us on and always ready
to hit record and then mix the show after he
does a great job. I also want to shout out
the executive producers from iHeart my good Pals Katrina and
Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from
(27:43):
Calypso Rallis if you like our videos. That is all
Calypso's handiwork. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. That's it from us here
at Part Time Genius. Thank you, Thank you so much
for listening.
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio. Hey there, How to Live Forever listeners. If
you haven't already listened to episodes one to four of
How to Live Forever, go ahead and do that. Now.
You're going to want to start with episode one, the
(00:23):
Longevanots and go from there. It is a great time
to binge. It's always a great time to binge. Today's
Minnesota However, is a mashup a very special episode of
my other podcast, Part Time Genius, that is tailor made
for the How to Live Forever crowd, and it's even
featuring producer Mary from both shows, who's co hosting with me.
(00:46):
And next week we'll be back with episode five of
How to Live Forever. We're going to try to solve
the mystery of what's really happening at the very dark
edges of longevity science. It's a great episode, but for now,
enjoy this minisode. We hope you dig it. Guess what Mary?
What's that?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Mangosh or should I call you Mango?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I mean whatever you want. I know this is a
crossover episode, but I love that different people from different
parts of my life call me slightly different variations of
my name, Like people in Delaware call me Mangesh, people
from people from like Mango is mostly a college name,
which is why i Will calls me that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And I always wondered where that came from.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Okay, yeah, mangaroo. Mangaroo did not know about There's so
many nick kames. But you are interrupting my facts, so
I'm gonna keep going. Did you know that if an
Italian statistician had grabbed a different pen, the way we
talk about extreme longevity would be very different.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's just one of those butterfly effect things where some
random little event triggers a chain reaction that changes the
course of history.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Or No, this is a direct cause and effect. And
I'm talking about blues zones, which are those scattered points
around the globe where people are said to live an
insanely long time, like sometimes even one hundred and twenty years.
And it all began when Gianni Pez and Italian researcher
teamed up with a Belgian demographer named Michelle Pulane to
(02:16):
study aging in Sardinia, an island off the coast of
Italy where people supposedly live longer than other parts of
the country. Now. We'll talk more about the project in
a bit, but this detail was just so funny to
be so. As the pair was driving around the island
checking the residents, ages Pez marked a map with a
blue pen to indicate places where the centenarians lived. So
(02:38):
in two thousand and four, when they published a paper
about their research, they referred to a section of the
island with lots of one hundred year olds as the
blue zone.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That was a lucky choice, right, I mean, a green
zone just sounds like white, a place where they're really
diligent about recycling, you.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Know, very earth conscious. Yeah, and a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Red zone just sounds terrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I guess if they thought to bring a highlight or
we could all be talking about the health benefits of
like a neon yellow zone, which I think would be fun.
But it is blue zones, and for decades people who
have been obsessed with them. There's something so appealing about
this idea that certain places have cracked the longevity code,
not through high tech science, but actually through traditional lifestyles.
(03:22):
And I'll admit that at first I wanted to look
into blue zones because I daydream about running off to
an island in the Mediterranean, napping on a beach instead
of sitting in meetings, you know, all in the name
of living a more peaceful and longer life. But it
turns out the story of the Blue Zones is a
little more complicated than that, and possibly more misleading than
(03:44):
I thought. So let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners,
(04:08):
welcome to Skyline Drive How to Live Forever, and welcome
to part time genius. I am mongas particular. Today I'm
joined by producer Mary, who's been helping out with Skyline Drive.
Hey Mary, Hey, my gosh.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah. So, over the past few months, we've been doing
a ton of research about longevity, from the breakthroughs that
are happening right now, like literal brains in petrie dishes
that help treat Alzheimer's disease, to the ways people thought
about longevity in the past, to what the future might hold.
And in fact, we found so many great stories we
couldn't fit them all in the regular episodes, which is
(04:42):
why we're here today to talk about the Blue Zones.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That is absolutely correct. It's been a lot of fun
and pretty crazy too. But where do you think we
should start.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, before we get into the origin of blue Zones.
I think we should do some context, and that means
going back to the nineteen sixties and the Republic of Azerbaijan,
which at the time was part of the Soviet Union.
And what happened was a photojournalist reported on an Azerbaijani
shepherd named Shiri Lei Muslimov, who was allegedly one hundred
(05:12):
and fifty eight years old. That set off a flood
of reports claiming that there were multiple people over the
age of one hundred and fifty living in parts of
Azerbaijan and nearby Georgia, not places that are normally in
the news a lot right right, and it was a
worldwide sensation. Even US outlets like Life National Geographic sixty
(05:32):
minutes did a story. Now, obviously, very old individuals had
made the news before, but this time the implication was
that there was something unique about the region. Muslimv told
reporters that he owed his health to local traditions like
herding sheep and eating a lot of vegetables and yogurt.
The big food conglomerate Danin actually picked up on this
(05:54):
last detail and they ran ads featuring elderly Georgian farmers
eating little plastic cups of sweetened fruit yogurt.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I love the idea that, like, you could be living
for one hundred and fifty years and not get any
ad sponsorship deals, and then you know, you hit one
fifty eight and the yogurt company's cop running to you,
you get.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That yogurt bag. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
So this is obviously very funny, And obviously what Musli
Mov was referring to was a different type of yogurt,
not swedened fruit cups.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well, no, of course not. But you know grandma's homemade
yogurt won't make dan In any money, right, so they
ran with it. But the next thing that happened was
a Harvard physician named Alexander Leif launched a two year
study of people in a region of Georgia called ab Khazia,
as well as villages in Pakistan and Ecuador, where similar
longevity tales had emerged. Leif insisted that the places he
(06:47):
visited really did have clusters of people in their one
hundred and twenties, even one hundred and fifties, but his
work came under intense scrutiny. Critics targeted his reports from Abkhazia,
in particular on the grounds that the Soviet government just
wanted to spread propaganda about their extra healthy citizens to
gullible Westerners. Then a follow up study in Ecuador revealed
(07:08):
that locals had lied to leave, they were exaggerating their
ages in order to promote tourism, all of which meant
that from that point on, our desire to believe in
the idea of magically long lived villages would be tempered
by skepticism about magically long lived villages.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
And I'm sure so many people spent so much money
on yogurt and were just really depressed that their fridges
were filled with little cartons of dent on. So this
sets the stage for our blue pen carrying friend, Gianni
Pez and his partner Michelle Pulaine, who coined the phrase
blue zones. Now, this all began in nineteen ninety nine,
(07:48):
when Pez attended a conference to present research he'd done
on Sardinia. He claimed that not only had he found
unusually high numbers of centenarians there, the majority of them
were men, which is really really strange because women tend
to live longer than men in general. In part because
of the uproar that followed these field studies that Alexander
(08:08):
leif had done, people were immediately doubtful of the findings.
Michelle Poulaine, a Belgian demographer, happened to be at the conference,
and demographers are experts in validating age data. So some
of the other attendees were like, Michelle, you should go
and see if this crazy story checks out. So he did,
and Poulaine and Pez spent six months retracing Pez's travels
(08:32):
all around Sardinia, and that's where they made that famous
blue ink map. Now in the end, Poulaine concluded that
the data was correct. People in central Sardinia were almost
three times more likely to reach their one hundredth birthday
than people living elsewhere in Italy, which is incredible, it
really is.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But you know what's interesting to me is they could
have just stopped there. You know, that's a remarkable finding,
but they wanted to keep going and figure out if
there were other places in the world where people have
unusual longevity.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Right, that's right, And that's where their third collaborator comes in,
a science writer named Dan Butner. In two thousand and five,
Butner published a blockbuster national geographic cover story called The
Secrets of Long Life, and in it he featured Pez
and Poulaine's Blue Zone study of Sardinia, as well as
research from the island of Okinawa, Japan, and the small
(09:19):
town of Loma Linda, California. Now residents of these three places,
he wrote, quote, produce a high rate of centenarians and
enjoy more healthy years of life. They offer best practices
to emulate. The rest is up to you. This type
of thing is obviously just catnet for the general public.
Right he is saying, here are these beautiful, special places
(09:41):
where people are freakishly healthy and live a long time,
and you two can have what they have. And honestly,
the photos that accompany the story are really incredible. It's
hard not to be sucked in by the promise of it.
There's an eighty four year old doing a headstand on
a beach in Okinawa, A one hundred three year old
Sardinian man at a table with his family, enjoying a
(10:02):
leisurely meal of fresh pasta and wine.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh that sounds so good, I know.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, it just sounds so appealing. The head stands
less so the wine fast better speak for yourself. But
Beuter's piece got a lot of attention, and he connected
with Pez and Pulane, and the three of them decided
to team up and go on a quest to find
more Blue zones, which brings us to one of the
places we focus on in Skyline Drive, which is Ikorea.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Greece of course, where our friend George's family is from.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, and talk about idyllic beaches and delicious food. Right Like,
just hearing George described this slower pace of life there
and the community meals, I am totally sold on it.
And obviously, if you haven't listened to episode three of
Halalalve Forever, that's where we really get into this and
it's just such a beautiful story. But back to our
intrepid trio of Blue Zone researchers. They actually did more
(10:55):
legwork than just that. So to determine if a place
qualified as a Blue zone, they figured out how many
people born in a given year ended up living to
one hundred or more, and this ends up being a
painstaking process. It involves interviews and cross referencing birth and
death records, which you know aren't actually that easy to
track down. Once they were satisfied that a region had
(11:15):
an unusual proportion of people living into their hundreds, it
was declared a Blue Zone, and that's how Ikorea was
added to the official list in two thousand and eight,
along with Sardinia, Okinawa and Nikoya Peninsula, and Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know, maybe the common threat among these places is
that they all end with the letter A.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, you know, that hadn't even occurred to me. I
feel like if I'd only been living in DELAWAREA, they
made all the differens.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I don't know, I feel like I just made a breakthrough.
If any longevity researchers or investors would like to follow
up with me, I am prepared for a price to
discuss my research here. I'm happy to help. But anyway,
jokes aside. Through the mid aughts, as the Blue Zones
Trio did research in Koya and in Korea, they identified
other factors that these places had in common. And some
(12:05):
of it had to do with people's habits, like they
walked a lot and they weren't eating much of any
processed food. But it also had to do with the
big picture, like not being caught up in a rat
race and having a sense of purpose and being a
part of a community.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, it feels like
it really comes down to lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right, And when you decide that the thing you're researching
is a lifestyle, you can sell it. And now we're
getting into the tension that arose around the Blue Zones project.
In two thousand and eight, Dan Buttner created Blue Zones LLC,
which offers paid consulting services. Basically, the company advises communities
on how to promote walking, socializing, and healthy eating, and
(12:46):
if they follow the program, a town can be granted
the title of certified Blue Zones Community. Butner also trademarked
the name Blue Zones for commercial purposes, even though Pees
and Poulaine were the ones who'd come up with it.
And if you think that sounds like a conflict waiting
to happen, oh boy, are you right? We have to
(13:06):
take a quick break. But when we come back, we'll
tell you all about it.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
You can't see my mister burns fingers over here, just
waiting for waiting for the story. Welcome back. We are
(13:34):
talking about Blue Zones in this Skyline Drive how to
Live Forever slash Part Time Genius crossover episode, which I'm
so thrilled to be doing with you, Mary. It's really fun.
I realize it's kind of ridiculous to talk about doing
a crossover with myself. But that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Those what were those talent negotiations?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Like really difficult?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I bet well, speaking of things that are difficult, let's
get into the falling out among the three researchers who
popularized the idea of blue zones.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, so you were saying before the break, Dan Butner
was the one who really saw the commercial potential of
this concept, because even if you can't have the lifestyle
of a Greek villager, maybe you can buy a product
that makes you feel a bit more like them. And
according to Report and Science magazine, that put him at
odds with Jiohnny Pez and especially Michelle Poulaine. Apparently Poulaine
(14:28):
hadn't even realized Buner trademarked this term blue zones. And
the final straw came when Butner approached him about helping
with a lawsuit he wanted to bring against the luxury
brand Chanelle. Now, Chanelle had launched a product called Blue Serum,
which they claimed was made with ingredients from global blue zones.
Butner wanted to go after them for trademark infringement, and
(14:50):
that's when Poulaine put his foot down. He felt the
whole thing had strayed too far from the original goal
of demographic research, so they split up. Butner had his
Blue Zone's LLC business and website, and Polaine launched his
own website, Longevity Blue Zones. If you look at these
two websites, the difference is stark. In addition to Blue
(15:11):
Zones Communities consulting, Putner's website advertises the multiple books he's written,
with titles like The Blue Zone Solution and The Blue
Zones American Kitchen one hundred Recipes to Live to one hundred, Right, Like,
there's a lot he's done with this brand. There's also
a subscription meal planning service, hoodies that say Eat, Move, Love,
(15:32):
high end skincare products, and a line of Blue Zone
Kitchen branded frozen meals. Now. Michelle Pulaine's Longevity Blue Zones website,
on the other hand, will not sell you anything. It's
got nice photos of a goat standing off a cliff
overlooking the ocean, and then it's got links to the
original Blue Zones research. It also has some newer scientific
(15:55):
publications about place based longevity and that is it.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, you know, I I would pay for a nice
photo of a goat standing on a cliff. So I think, Michelle,
he's missing out, He's leaving money on the table. Yeah,
I mean that difference is really is really striking. But
you have to admit the self promo worked, right. Dan
Buttner has become the face of blue zones in popular
media today. He's the one who was featured in a
(16:20):
twenty twenty three Netflix docu series traveling to what he
calls the five original blue Zones. That's Okinawa, Sardinia, Nicoya,
I Korea, and Lo Malinda.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Lolinda ends in two a's, which is pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
My theory holds up. But actually this is a side
note about Lo Molinda. That's another point of disagreement. So
if you'll recall, this little town in California's Inland Empire
got caught up in the Blue Zone conversation because Buttner
had included it in his Big nat GEO cover story
back in two thousand and five. But he admitted later
(16:54):
he'd done that because his editor wanted the piece to
include a place in the United States.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
So they were kind of like manufacturing a place to
have us involvement in this. So there's nothing special about
Lo Molinda.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I did not say that, and I don't want to
start getting mail from people in Loolinda. I'm sure it's
a very special place, and actually a lot of people
do age well there, but that's because it's a Seventh
day Adventist community, and Adventist beliefs include a vegetarian diet
and strict rules against drinking and smoking. Plain has said
that it doesn't meet the criteria for a blue zone
because what it really is is a religious community, and
(17:28):
that's not the only confusion about which blue zones are
blue zones. Plaine added the French territory of Martinique to
his list in twenty twenty three. Buttner's list, which by
the way, does still include Lo Molnda, doesn't mention Martinique. However,
he's added Singapore, and he calls it an engineered longevity
hotspot or a blue zone two point zero. In other words,
(17:49):
unlike places where unusual longevity arose over time as people
practice their traditional ways of life, Singaporean longevity is by design.
They have universal healthcare, one of the best healthcare systems
in the world. Plus they have very strong laws against
drugs and guns. And as I say all of this,
I'm realizing that neither Martinique nor Singapore and in A,
(18:10):
but they do both end in E, which is close enough.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And you know, not only is there this dispute over
new blue zones, even the old ones are getting called
into question. So, as far as I can tell, Gianni
Pez doesn't have a blue zone's website of any kind,
but he is still working in the space, and last
year he published a paper in which he said that
due to westernization, he no longer considers Okinawa a blue zone.
(18:36):
He also said that Nikoya, the blue zone in Costa Rica,
is shrinking as people born there now have shorter life
expectancy than they used to. And I kind of get this.
If a traditional way of life is what makes blue
zones special, you know, it stands to reason that it
would change if the lifestyle changes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The changes in Okinawa in particular are really fascinating. Michelle
Poulaine has written about this as well. I read a
study he published with his collaborator Anne Herm, where basically
he concluded that there is a pattern of exceptional longevity
on Okinawa, but it's limited to people born before World
War Two. Later generations born after the war actually have
(19:15):
higher mortality rates than the rest of Japan and some
of the country's highest rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease,
liver disease. And there's probably a bunch of factors causing this,
including the post war American occupation of Okinawa, which lasted
until nineteen seventy two, among other things, people became dependent
on US army rations, and Polane speculates that this represented
(19:37):
a really abrupt shift in diet and lifestyle, which could
be more harmful to their health than a sort of
gradual evolution. He also noted that in the nineteen twenties,
an earthquake and the global recession led to periods of
famine on Okinawa, which obviously caused a lot of suffering.
But there are these links between calorie restriction and longevity.
(19:58):
We've seen it, We've heard this from any of the
scientists that we've spoken to. Or maybe it's just that
people who were predisposed to serious health problems didn't survive
the hard times to make it to old age.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It sounds like a classic case of there's just more
research needed.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, Yeah, that's pretty much what Pulaine and Herm concluded.
Of course, there are folks who believe that no amount
of research into so called blue zones is worthwhile, because
they say the data around extreme aging just does not
add up. One of the world's most vocal blue zone
critics is Saul Justin Newman. He is a senior researcher
at University College London's Center for Longitudinal Studies, and in
(20:38):
twenty twenty four he won the Ignoble Demography Prize. You
know the Ignobles, right, you know all about this?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Oh my gosh, I love the ignobles so much. You know,
we had been publishing them ever since I think they
first started. In Mental Floss we covered the Ignobles, and
I love that when people accept them, the crowd throws
paper airplanes onto the stage. But I think my favorite
thing about them is that it's like real scientific insights
(21:07):
that make you laugh and then kind of make you
think after it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Right, you get the best of both worlds. But the
paper that earned Newman the prize was a preprint. That is,
it hadn't yet been accepted by a peer reviewed publication.
So that's a little disclaimer. But let's play a quick game.
I'll tell you the first half of the paper's title,
and you guess what the second half is.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
All right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Super centenarian and remarkable age records exhibit patterns indicative of what.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Wait, repeat that slowly for me.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's super centenarian and remarkable age records exhibit patterns indicative of.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Unusual interest in group fitness classes such as zomba.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Oh no, no, not even close. Actually no, it's indicative
of clerical errors and pension fraud. Yeah. Newman has been
going around debunking claims about extreme age for almost two
decades now, and he says that his research has found
that almost all of the people who allegedly lived past
(22:12):
one hundred and ten didn't have birth or death certificates.
According to Newman, the vast majority of extreme aging cases
can be explained by paperwork errors. He points to Japan,
which in twenty ten launched an investigation of alleged centenarians
and found thousands of discrepancies. Some of them are cases
(22:34):
of fraud, that is, families who didn't register their loved
one's death in order to continue collecting pension payments. Others
were the result of errors in traditional handwritten family registries,
or just general postwar chaos. In Okinawa, for example, he
says there is a direct connection between alleged centenarians and
places that came under heavy US bombing, which meant that
(22:57):
buildings and the records in them got destroyed, and in
the aftermath people had to replace their documents via the
American occupying government. So not only were they re calling
names and dates from memory, they were trying to communicate
across pretty big language and cultural barriers. You know, you
tell them your name and your birth date, they write
it down wrong, and there you go. But it's not
(23:17):
just Japan. Newman says that if you dig into Greek data,
over two thirds of alleged centenarians are actually dead, missing,
or cases of pension fraud.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
So the old people other demographers encountered were they just
not as old as they thought they were.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, that's pretty much Newman's position. And the fact is,
accurate record keeping is a modern invention that hasn't been
applied in any consistent manner from country to country, or
even from region to region within a country. And as
someone who has spent a fair amount of time doing
archival research and fact checking, I can tell you that
even official documents are imperfect. It's not just fraud, you know,
(23:56):
good old human error can creep in. You transpose a
couple numbers, and all of a sudden, your great aunt
was born in nineteen twelve, not nineteen twenty one. It
happens a lot more often than you might realize. So
until scientists figure out an objective way to measure human
age that doesn't rely on records, Newman says, we should
just stop chasing the myth of extreme aging.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
You know, it is interesting that the Blue zones are
rural even compared to other regions of their countries, which
maybe supports that theory that the infrastructure for reliable record
keeping just wasn't there. And it also goes against some
of what we've learned about longevity and making sky and
drive right, Like a lot of positive health outcomes are
(24:36):
linked to having a higher income and greater healthcare access,
not living in relative poverty in a remote village. And
I guess that's what Dan Buner was getting at when
he was calling Singapore a blue zone two point zero.
But you know, if you go back to what Butner, Poulaine,
and Pez describe as the Blue Zones lifestyle factors, I
(24:57):
do think that has some merit. There's nothing crazy about
the idea that like diet and daily activity like those
things impact longevity, and I really appreciate that they emphasize
the importance of mental health and social connections too.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
None of that is flashy science. It's not a pill
or an injection that you can take, but it is
backed up by research. And I also think it's a
useful reminder for people, especially people making policy decisions, to
think about healthy aging in the context of how society functions.
When folks have things like a walkable community, places to socialize,
(25:33):
time for hobbies, local veggies, they're gonna be better off.
And you know what, this episode has inspired me that
this weekend, I'm going to take a walk to my
neighborhood farmer's market. I love it.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's like your own mini Blue Zone right here in
New York City.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I mean, I still do want to hang out on
a fusion in Korea though, so sure maybe. But in
the meantime, for those of you who don't know, at
the end of every Part Time Genius episode, we give
out a trophy and Mary tell me what you think
about this. I think today's trophy should go out to
every centenarian out there.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Are we going to check their birth certificates.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
No, absolutely not. We're podcasters and we don't have time
for that. We're just going to take their word for it.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, fair enough, So congratulations hundred plus year olds, even
if you're actually just ninety.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well that does it for us. Be sure to subscribe
to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever and Part Time
Genius wherever you get your podcasts. We love reviews, so
if you have the time to write as a review,
we'll absolutely take it on either show, both shows, if
you've got the time for it. And from Will, Dylan, Mary, Gabe,
and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part Time
(26:58):
Genius is a production of Colliscope and iHeartRadio. It is
hosted by my good pal Will Pearson, who I've known
for almost three decades now. That is insane to me.
I'm the ut co host, Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer
is Mary Phillips Sandy. She's actually a super producer. I'm
going to fix that in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier,
(27:21):
who I've also known for like a decade at this point,
maybe more. Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is
always dressed up, always cheering, us on and always ready
to hit record and then mix the show after he
does a great job. I also want to shout out
the executive producers from iHeart my good Pals Katrina and
Norvel and Ali Perry. We have social media support from
(27:43):
Calypso Rallis if you like our videos. That is all
Calypso's handiwork. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or tune in wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. That's it from us here
at Part Time Genius. Thank you, Thank you so much
for listening.
Part-Time Genius News
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Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
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