May 3, 2018 • 37 mins
Andy Grammer has taken the music world by storm with a succession of gold and platinum-certified singles--- “Keep Your Head Up”, “Honey I’m Good”, “Good to Be Alive (Hallelujah)", and “Fresh Eyes” are among his catalog of pop hits. Before kicking off his 2018 tour, the Cali-native singer/songwriter dropped by the GRAMMY Museum to talk about his journey in music and his third-studio album The Good Parts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the Clive
Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to great
music artists across the musical spectrum about their inspirations, their influences,
and their creative process. With Required Listening, I'm happy that
we can bring these conversations to you on today's show.
(00:25):
My conversation with Andy Grammer. We got together just after
he released his third full length album, entitled The Good Parts.
He's very much a gifted pop songwriter who leans toward
contemporary soul. He got his start playing on the street
in Santa Monica and graduated to higher profile gigs and
ultimately landed a label deal. He is truly an energetic
(00:48):
and prolific artist. And if you heard our recent discussion
with Imagined Dragons, you'll recall that Dan Reynolds was talking
about how that band had written well over one hundred
songs for their most recent record. Well, Andy Grammer told
me exactly the same thing, that he had written a
hundred and fifteen songs for this album. So let's go
(01:09):
to the Clive Davis Theater and listen to my conversation
with Andy Grammer. Give it up for Andy Grammer. Come
on now, h thank you, thank you good to be here,
and thank you for being here. We appreciate it. We
(01:31):
haven't seen you in a few years. Man said, how long?
How long ago? It's like four or five years since
you and I last chatted. Yeah, I know I look older.
I think you look fine. But let's talk about the
about the new album and it particularly in reading some
stuff talking about the new record, you've said you love
this album. Yeah, and im and was interested like whether
that matters all that should really matter to whether everybody
(01:55):
else likes it, But this I just really love this one.
I think that you, as you go along creating art,
you have a feeling of how you personally feel about it,
and then you go about the process of trying to
get it out of yourself and then I give it
to you. I would say the majority of the time
that you do that, by the time it's like a
terrible game of telephone. By the time it comes out
of my heart and I give it to you, I
(02:16):
would say about nine time, like ship that is totally
not what I was. By the time that I give
it to you, um, and I think that this collection
of songs has the highest percentage of what it felt
like in me to when I gave it everybody else
and and and you know, this is very much and
you've talked about this is very much a snapshot of
(02:38):
who you are at this particular Yeah, which is kind
of an argument for albums in general, right, which I
don't know where I stand totally, but that would be
the argument for keeping them, would be that, uh, with
one song you can get an idea, but with like
twelve songs, you can get a real sense of where
somebody is well and and that you know, and that
(02:59):
kind of big the question, because you know, here we
are in the digital age of the streaming age. You know,
people listening to one song and moving on. There's no
attention span, blah blah blah blah blah. But but you've
made an argument for the album as a body of
work still, and I'm wondering why that's important to you.
I don't know if I'm gonna really like willing to
stand behind that as like the best way to do it.
(03:20):
I just know that I'm gonna write a hundred and
fifteen Do you want to hear a couple because to
get the best stuff for me is always a hundred
and fifteen. Then I then part of that process is
like I have a lot of good, good things here
I would like i'd rather share now, Maybe should I
just release them one at a time. I'm open to
all things, but I still kind of do like putting
in an album. That's also a crazy thing. For each
(03:42):
of the three records you've made, you've written over one
hundred songs. Yeah, and honaw me know any other way
you know, when you do art as you're living, that
isn't in it is in need. It's this weird thing, right.
You have to eat? You need to eat. That's for
sure a need. I remember when I was working as
(04:03):
a butcher. Uh what um? I was working as a butcher,
and the guy who was the boss was like, yeah,
only get into things that people need. So I do.
I own a I own a grocery store, and I
and I own property, because like, there will always be
a need for that. And I would argue that there's
always a need for music, but there's not always a
need for like pretty good music. There's only a need
(04:26):
for the best expletive music that there that's available. At
the time. So if you get in this game, it's
not like commodity. I mean it's I mean it's it's
not something that you have to have unless you have
to have it. So it has to be a song
that makes the hair in your arms stand up. That's
what That's what I mean. And for you, you're going
for that every time. So you know, in terms of
(04:47):
the writing and the and the process, are you waiting
for that moment when the hair stands up on your arm.
What's really messed up about this is that I can't
tell in the moment whether it's there. I can tell
whether I feel like it's true, which is another thing
that's so hard to do. I don't know why. It's
(05:07):
that it's so hard true to you or to do
what you think true about life. To like write a
line that is true that resonates with everybody is like, yeah,
I go through that as well. That is really really
like to write your truth in a way that's eloquent
is so hard. If you just write down, and if
you sit down, like try to write your story, you
will quickly notice that as you start to write, it's like, well,
(05:29):
that's not totally it, that's not exactly how it feels.
That's not you know. That's so to write your truth
is very difficult. Same for going back to like what's
in your heart too, Then hand is somebody actually have
them feel it. So the only way that I know
how to get closest to that is to do it
a billion times and then pick the ones that are
the closest. You know. I had this. I had this
fascinating conversation with Julie Michaels a couple of months ago.
(05:49):
Great songwriter now hit artist in her own but she
she's been writing songs for other artists for quite a
long time, and she said, you know, it's much easier
to write about if you will my challenges and then
give that to someone else to sing. It's a whole
different discussion if all of a sudden, I'm writing my
truth and I'm singing it and that's what you do. Yeah,
(06:13):
pop music great is when it's simple. The great simple
lines are the ones that make you feel and are
the best. Usually what makes the simple great, I've found
is when you have a lot of emotion about a
certain topic. So then when you just say one line
about it, it means so much and you can only,
and if you can get it down to even like
a syllable, that's the best. So if you can get
(06:33):
a syllable to pack the hardest punch, that's pop music.
Right when you're writing a hundred fifteen songs, do you
even have a hundred and fifteen things about yourself that,
when distilled down, pack that punch. That's probably the hardest
part of all of it is finding the thing that
is worth writing about. And that's another thing why I
like to write a hundred fifteen because you think that
you have it and then by the time that it's
(06:54):
our only done, it's not. It's not it usually you know.
Here's the other thing. So, so you talked about pop
music and occasional only. You know, pop music can be
um labeled as, for lack of a better term, inconsequential.
Sure that it's a confection, but you take a different approach.
Within that there can be meaningful things that are said. Yeah,
(07:16):
it's a dangerous game because if you add too much meaning,
it sinks. So I can't make it too weighty. No, yea,
this is the dance right. I would consider myself. I
don't really like vegan food, but in this analogy, let's
use it. It'd be like, how do you how do
you make a vegan cookie compete with an oreo? Yeah,
(07:36):
it's it's really really hard to do, right, But I
bet there's someone uh nailed it. How do you make
uh I'm gonna do it well, But here's what I mean.
But the idea is, how do you make sugar free
(07:57):
compete with sugar? It's really hard to do. There's there
are people that have done it, and we've all had
situations where like, you gotta taste this and you're like,
I don't sure, Guys gonna say terrible, and then you
taste you like, that's pretty good. There's a reason why
they call it coke zero. Yeah, that's kind of what
I love to try and do, and um, it's really fun.
I'm not sure how we got from pop songwriting to
(08:17):
coke zero? But is it? Is that literally the only
cookie that's vegan? Probably? I just know there's only one
problem with like fat free food. It doesn't have any
fat in it. Besides that. So this is your third
full length album, is it important for you to keep
a certain element of surprise for your listeners? I e.
(08:37):
You had this massive hit on the last record Honey
I'm good, people maybe coming to the new record and thinking, oh,
I'm going to hear the next iteration of honey, I'm good.
But is it important for you to kind of, you know,
keep people kind of on their toes about your sound. No,
it's just so it's just so hard to get something
(09:01):
that's good, genuinely good that when you hear you're like,
that's good. That's really really, really hard to get. So
I don't care about surprising you. I just want to
give you something that's great. Like if you've ever left
the movie you've heard of an album that it ends
and you don't know why, but you feel awesome, really
a movie, and you're like, that was so great, Like
good art is my favorite drug. It makes me feel
(09:23):
a certain way. And to be able to try and
make that and then give it to people, and then
already with this album, like people will send me messages
that that I haven't gotten before, which is really just
like what I haven't really gotten the thing of like
you made me cry in my car, which I didn't expect.
I know that when you go after deeper topics that
can sometimes happen, but that's I'm getting some of those
on this album, which is cool. It's a different area
(09:45):
for me to h kind of be in which I appreciate. Yeah,
that's a that's actually great. That that's actually great. You
recently became a father. Yeah, um, we were just talking.
That's awesome. Five and a half months a right, So
how did father her change you as an artist? Well,
it definitely opens you up to a whole new area
of life, which is fun to write about. It's definitely
(10:08):
one of those things that I'm talking about that is
worth distilling down. So it's such a big thing that
when you're able to distill it down to like a
couple of songs I'll play one tonight to aligne, it
holds because it's a big enough thing. Right. The song
I'll played a night is called Always. When you say
to your daughter, you and me will be always, that's
like a simple little line that means So it's so cool,
(10:28):
So just that in general, and then you know it
just kind of opens your heart more. Well, you've used
the term emotional access. Yes, you have tons of emotional
access to depths of yourself that are usually reserved pre kids.
I don't know, like a yoga retreat with like the
one time that you like, something amazing happens and you
all have this incredible dinner and you go real deep
(10:50):
and it's like, holy crap. And and now with your kid,
you're like going there just because you put it in
a car seat. It's just a level of intensity that
like you're jumping in an out of that's really really tough.
One of the other terms that you used, you know,
in terms of writing for this album, was authentic, you know,
being authentic, And to me, that kind of that goes
hand in hand with this whole experience you're talking about
(11:12):
becoming a father. Is that all of a sudden there
is frankly nothing much more authentic parent than parenthood. Yeah,
it's been's really sweet because I work really hard and
my brain spins a lot about what to do next
and how do you make something great and how do
you stay on top of stuff, and so to have
this little girl who's around that will when I get
(11:33):
in the door lights that all that on fire. My
brain just goes like, this is where I'm supposed to
be right now. And so for me, that's really sweet.
And I'm wondering in that process because you know, kids
will have that ability to completely get you focused on
them and and for all the right reasons and not
on you know, whatever your challenges are, whatever your issues
(11:56):
might be, whatever your songwriting stuff might be, but that's
got to be a great kind of yeah, because pause
for the creative side totally. And you you have to
make deals with yourself in my profession, like I make
a deal with myself that I'm definitely good enough to
do this, and then the world will come in in
many different ways and go. Let you know, you do
(12:16):
a performance on TV and everybody hates it and they're like,
you're totally not good enough, You're the worst. And then
you'll have a great thing that will be a huge
hit and they'll be like you are so much better
than everybody else, And you have to consistently just be like,
all right, I'm just gonna like, no matter what you say,
I'm gonna put myself in the middle here and know
that I'm just good enough to keep doing this. A
lot of times you take all that home and you're
fighting it. Depending on how it went, you're fighting to
(12:38):
get yourself back down to the middle, or you're fighting
yourself to bring yourself back up from the dungeon and
when I come home or even just like face time
her from somewhere, it makes it way easier to let
all that becau it's not important anyway, but it's really
hard to let go of it. And she's kind of
like the neutralizer and you pick up a baby and
it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Sonically, listening to the alb them,
(13:00):
this is different. This is different than than the last record,
for instance, And um, pardon me if I'm offending anyone here,
grown ass Man Child. Sure, UM song on the record
has this tremendous kind of bass drop thing, which is
not something we've heard from you previously. Talk a little
bit about kind of going in that direction. If you're
(13:21):
going to be in this in the pop game, you
are constantly hearing what's occurring right now, and you're also
going with what you love on your own. And the
worst thing you can do me and my manager calling
me too, which is like a sound comes out and
you be like and me as well on that right, right,
I'll follow that, right. But there's an interesting dance there
when it's like, but I'm inspired by that, so I
(13:42):
think it's all intention. I've definitely written songs where I'm like,
I know, in my gut, I'm just trying to rewrite
this song, and then there's other ones like oh, that's
a really interesting vibe. And then then I create this
which is my own thing. And so that was really
just a blast. So at the end, you know, and
when you go to the studio, all bets it off you.
You you do whatever comes to you, and you have
you have fun, and then you kind of reflect later
(14:04):
on where it sits or how it's actually affecting you.
And that one just was too good to night And
you did that with Oak. Yeah, OK, tell me about
first of all, how did you guys? He's great. Yeah.
We did a bunch of sessions for this record. We
wrote a couple of different songs, but this one it
was basically Taylor Swift has has that song twenty two.
I don't know about you, but I'm feeling in twenty two,
and I thought how ridiculous it would be to write
(14:26):
the thirty two year old version of that. Yeah, yeah,
I'd have to write the sixty two year old. Yeah, yeah,
I want to hear it. I do know that so
sweet because that's like a scary thing. But if you
nail that everybody wants to hear it. I swear good.
I've got three years. And so you know, usually a
song like gross Man Child like usually to that level
(14:48):
of weird, I'll send that and we'll all be like,
I mean, that's ridiculous, you can't put that out, but
that's really fun. And then over after a little while
and you just keep finding yourself putting it on and like,
I think I like this, you you know, but here's
here's the thing that that struck me. Again. I'm gonna
reference my conversation with Julie Michaels, because again she's working
in that pop vein and and and I asked her
(15:09):
the same question that that we were just talking about,
in terms of sort of, you know, pop music as
a confection is something that that's here today and kind
of gone tomorrow and doesn't really have that heft, if
you will, or a space for real creativity. And she said,
you know, I think pop music is a place where
you can be the most experimental, where you can establish
(15:32):
ideas and trends much more so than in other styles
and genres. And I think that's kind of where, listening
to your three albums, you live there. Yeah, I Love.
It's my favorite space because if you I really like
to try to distill down a very real emotion and
(15:52):
then make it simple and catchy, and and that's what
stays with people, and that has the ability to get
into like that if you do it, there's a key
directly into someone's heart that you don't know. And that's
such an incredible process. And the best songwriters that have
done it throughout time, they find these emotions and then
they're able to get it so simple. And so to me,
it's always like, how do I get the line right
(16:14):
or the idea across, and then from there then then
let's play. Then then the sounds and and the production
of it becomes very kind of not easy, but that's
way more fun and lighthearted. But the hard, hard, really
intense work comes about simplifying it. And I think sometimes
that you know, people don't quite get the amount of
(16:35):
work that goes making something so supposed to sound it's
supposed to sound like you just said it. Yes, love
was such an easy game to play, like that's so simple,
but it's like, I know what that feels like. We've
all been there. We're like ship yesterday, we were turn
it and they did that over and over and over
again to a place where it's like obnoxious. So um,
(16:57):
you know, right, writing with Oak, and there were other
other collaborations on the record. Now I want to talk
to you about collaborating in terms of co writing versus
versus writing on your own. And you've talked about how
um one kind of supports and informs the other. Talks
about the benefits of writing with others. Okay, one of
(17:19):
the biggest benefits of writing with others is that it
makes you write, which it forces it forces you to write.
If you have a session on the books with somebody else,
you're going to write a song that day. If you
have a session by yourself, you might And that's just real.
And they're therefore to get to a D fifteen. I
don't know if I can get to a hundred fifteen
by just setting up a day like a hundred fifteen
(17:41):
days and me writing it every day. So I realized
that my chances of getting something great are better if
I'm writing with other people, because it will make me
write more. And I'm at a place where I'm confident
enough to where I know that we're gonna tell my
story because I know how to do that. I know
how to like stop in the middle of the room
and be like, this is totally not my story. You
guys wanna go write that song with somebody else, But
like I know how to bring myself to it. In
(18:03):
the beginning, I was very hesitant to do it because
I wasn't totally clear on how to own the room
as far as what we were saying. But now that's
mostly the special sauce that I bring is myself, my
point of view, and hopefully some of my melody sense.
And then we have all these other people that help
make that work, you know, and being the artist that
is it's going to be on your record, you can
kind of call the shots in that way. And so
(18:25):
that I really enjoy co writing, even almost mostly for
we will write a song today that's a serious photo respect,
which is that actually writing is a hard thing to
make yourself to. Being a collaborator is not necessarily simple,
And I'm wondering what is it about you that makes
you a good collaborator. First of all, you just gotta
(18:45):
be hopefully good. Hang it's really important, like really just
be nice, have a good time, make the room feel good. Um,
come with ideas and nothing worse than just like starting
starting off with no one has any ideas. So I
usually do about an hour or two of writing before
I to the session to at least have something to offer,
Like if someone says something that is really good but
(19:06):
not what you would say. So if someone says, like
in the room something about drinking alcohol, which I don't do,
and it's not so now you've taken out of my story.
But the problem is that it's a great line. Now
it's on me to beat that or else the vibe
is screwed because if I just go like, no, we
can't do that because I'm drink alcohol. But the line
was great. Now now you're annoying. Yeah, yeah, now you've
(19:27):
shut you've shut it down. You're the worst. So so
immediately you better come with something cooler and better and
more interesting. And that's like kind of the dance that
I do is to like not let the vibe drop
even though I don't drink that, okay, okay, because you
want to make it authentic and and real and something
that every we can relate to, but still tell your room. Yeah,
And oftentimes this is what people that you've just met. Yeah,
(19:49):
a lot of times that that is true. On your
third album, you start to meet the people that are
that you really deal with, so there's less of that,
and you go you try to get with them. Do
you remember your first co write? Who is your first
co write? Man, I don't totally remember. I remember. I
didn't like it. I thought in the beginning of all
that co writing was was diluting my thing, and that
is the exact opposite once you get good at it.
(20:12):
You know, we talked about how prolific you are if
you're writing a hundred songs for an album. Yeah, then
you have to be writing not only when you're you know,
kind of comfortable and hanging around the house totally, but
when you're on the road. Yeah, we just did that.
It almost killed me. And almost to a person, every
artist that I've ever talked to, with rare exception, has said,
writing on the road is impossible. It's not impossible, but
(20:35):
it's really tough because the road is already so much
being asked of you, like the show is at night,
which is already weird. It's a weird profession to have
the most important thing of your day started like eleven.
So you have to kind of like take your break before,
but if you're a motivated person, you don't. And also
(20:55):
there's all that adrenaline. You wake up and you're doing
other things and then you're by the time get there,
so you kind of burn out. But we it's also
really fun. I feel like the last tour I went
on was about two months and I brought writers out
onto the bus. We bet yeah, so many writers and
I had a studio on the back and some of
the songs that on this album We're kind of started
there or came from different things. And uh, it was
(21:17):
really intense, but it was awesome. It was like an
andy camp. It was like all the things I liked
all day, from the moment you wake up the moment
you go to sleep. I mean, you know, I guess
the sports analogy would be, you know, when teams go
on the road, they're they're incredibly focused because there's no
distractions that they would find when their home. Is it
(21:38):
somewhat analogous Somewhat It's tough because it's hard to describe,
like you ever just you just take a flight anywhere
and you realize that you didn't really do anything that
should make you as tired as you are. By the
time you get there, you didn't you sat like got up,
like waited in the line. Then you sat on the plane,
you watched a movie, and then you get to wherever
(22:00):
you're going, like, I'm exhausted and I don't totally know
why that is, but that's real. So to to like
fight through that whatever that is, and just and work
extra hard because you already have meat, and you have
all these other things that are needed of you need
to go radio stations and all this different stuff. So
then to pull out creativity along pull out songs out
of yourself while that's happening is very difficult. But also
(22:23):
a lot of what happened was I stayed sharp. I
do think it's like being in shape. So I stayed
sharp for those two months that when I got off tour,
I went and wrote some of my favorite songs. When
I got home, I was like, Okay, cool, I'm not
super exhausted, but I'm still in shape. I've been writing
melodies every single day, and then we wrote some of
some of the really great ones. I could ask the
(22:46):
cliche question, you know what comes first for you? Melody?
You know, melody, your lyrics. But you've talked about and
I found this fascinating. You've talked about emotion leading the process. Yeah,
can you explain that I'm at a place where I
have When you've written so many songs, you can definitely
sit with someone else and write a good song. We
(23:07):
can write one and it'll be good because we have
technique and we've written and I don't know four songs
at this point, so like, I'm going to write a
song that like the average person will be like, let's
a pretty good song. But what gets me excited is
when you write something that is a truth about being alive.
And I use this analogy a lot, but like like
a scientific proof that hasn't been written in in that
(23:27):
exact way yet. So that is what makes me excited,
and that is my That is where I spend most
of my time, is trying to get those lines, those
things that when you say them, it makes someone feel
like they're going through it as well. And you you
said it, that's what's the hardest part. But the problem
is you're you're kind of trying to get that at
the same time that you're writing melodies and chord changes
(23:49):
and all this different stuff. So it's kind of it's
it's not like one thing happens before the others. Do
you basically go after it all at the same time
and then look at it after and go like nope,
like that what and a pie chart of songwriting? For me,
that's what the majority of it is. Is like there'd
be that there'd be a pie chart and it would
be like a huge thing and they'd be like a
(24:09):
little sliver and and this whole thing would be like nope,
and then they'd be like a little slipper, like yes, yeah,
that's what that's what I do. So here's another complication
for you. Your wife is a songwriter. Yeah, I think
one could imagine the challenges inherent in that in that
(24:30):
um um. First, first of all, do do you do
you at what? Well, here's the question. All right, I've
been I've been thinking about how to approach this. And
let me tell you a a story that you don't even
have to have talking Moore. I'll give you all. I'll
give you everything you need in this short little story.
I am a serial collaborator, like I can't stop adding
(24:50):
onto things or like tweaking with like it's what I do,
It's what I love to do. So we were singing
this is almost embarrassing. We were singing Etsy Bitsy Spider
to my daughter and the her spider. The water came
the right and then out of nowhere, I like veer
off into a bridge of the itsy bitsy Spider and
(25:12):
my wife was like, that's I hate you you do
you know you do that to my stuff, You do
that to every Just enough with it enough And that's
our life is like consistently going back and forth with
with like if you know she has an idea and
she's playing it, I can't help but go over and
mess with it, saying with her. It's really hard when
you're both songwriters if one of you do on a
piano downstairs and the other one shouts down like no,
(25:36):
you know, like that happens, and you have to be
really delicate with how you deal with that with each other. Um,
we have different hats that we decide we're gonna wear.
When you're asking for someone's opinion, like hey, can you
can you tell me about the song, and then you
like hit pause and you're like, I actually just want
you to be my wife and say you love it.
That's all I wanted. That's all that's um. But sometimes
(25:57):
she'll bring me stuff or all bring her stuff and
be like tell me what you really think. So you
just have to kind of beat yourself to the punch
and go like, this is what I need right now.
If you're writing as many as a hundred or a
hundred and fifteen songs, is there a criteria for the
twelve that make or the ten or whatever it is
that that make it on the on the album? There's
got to be something awesome about it to me. You know,
(26:19):
you'd like to think that they're all perfect, uh, And
I would say that they aren't all perfect, but there's
like something about it that you can't let go. Whether
it's the way that the drum bee and this melody
go together. For me, it's usually is there that is there?
The truth in? There? Is there? That? Did I capture
the truth in a in an interesting, cool, catchyway? Um?
And that's when I'm when I'm so excited about this
(26:41):
my last album. To me personally, I feel that that
it happened a lot and it's so fun and exciting,
and I find myself on stage like so giddy again
to go sing new songs. Because when I feel like
I have caught the truth, I know how hard that is.
And there's almost a part of me that doesn't feel
like proud that I got it. It's more just like
so grateful that I get to sing this truth every
(27:04):
night because I've been on stage. I have songs that
I don't think the truth is there. And when you're
singing and it's not in there, it's miserable. So when
you do have enough and now like three albums, you're
you're only picking your favorite from the different albums that
you think is all the truth, and then you get
up and you sing and it's it's it's the best.
There's nothing better. We've been talking about, you know, songwriting
(27:24):
and your evolution as a songwriter and and and I'm
wondering has what you listened to has that evolved? Yeah,
you know, I'm listening right now. I'm listening to a
ton of things that don't have anything to do with
pop music with like who like So, my daughter is
named Louisiana, and I traveled so many different places, and
(27:48):
I feel like everywhere I go, um, I have a
unique perspective, which is just my own, but a perspective
of what do you guys do better here than other places?
When you go up to Seattle and you see the
way they deal with coffee, and you're like, gonna do
this pretty good, like really care more than other places. Uh.
You go to Austin and you're like, whoa, there's there's
so much live music here, and you go city city City,
(28:11):
and you have like a perspective being like it's it's
not here, and then it's here. You guys care more
about this. And when I landed in Louisiana, New Orleans
in general, there's a joy to life that was more
than anywhere I've been just and there's like good things
that come from that and horrendous things that come from that,
and but just overall, like you guys do joy better
(28:34):
than other places, Like you're you smile bigger here. Um.
And so that's why I named her Louisiana, because she's
so joy to me. But because of that, I made
a whole playlist of songs that had the name Louisiana,
and it's all this jazz. So it got me psyched
and I have so much of my year has been
just like listening to tons of jazz and Louis Armstrong.
(28:54):
It's been great. And also because it doesn't make me
work it's more, it's more joy. There's like a stress
sometimes when you turn on the radio and you're on
you know that you could be on the radio that
now I'm now, I'm working, I don't now if I
don't come what a terrible thing to turn on the radio.
And if my song doesn't come on, it's not cool?
(29:17):
What a miserable existence. So you turn off the radio
and you listen to other things. And I check in
all the time, and I love listening to like the
top Spotify numbers, and I see like I will listen
to the radio. But when I listen to the radio,
it's like, um, okay, why is that working? What's happening?
It's much more like like forensic dissecting, like oh that
prey was sick. Why let me like run that back
(29:38):
and see why. And then so some of your joy
comes from different places. I got like a huge Randy
Newman phase that was awesome speaking Louisiana. Yeah, only wrote
one of the best Louisiana's best ever. Yeah, um, speaking
Randy Newman. Are there artists that you go back to
consistently for inspiration? John Mayer's one, because he's so good. Uh,
(30:01):
I think he's underrated lyrically. Everybody knows he's like a
great guitar player and that's so fun. But I think
he's also like a super word smith, um, and that
was what caught me originally on this first album and
then throughout. So I go back to him because I
think he can find at his best, he really knows
how to do this truth thing and I'm talking about um.
(30:21):
Whenever I feel off my center, I listened to Miseducation
Lauren Hill because she she does telling someone what's good
for them is inherently not what you want, and somehow
she did it the coolest way, the dopest way ever
on that album. So I go back to that. Stevie
(30:42):
Wonder does it too. He knows how to he knows
how to sing happy, and everybody lists agrees instead of
being like so cheesy, yeah, those three are kind of
like yeah, um, you know, I do want to roll
the video tape back, just just just for a minute.
What music do you remember hearing growing up? So my
dad is a children's singer, but before he was a
(31:04):
children's singer in my like super formative years, he was
a folk singer. And I would be backstage and they
would go out and sing these folks songs. And what's
cool about folks is like there's not a ton of
left turns in folk music. You kind of inherently, if
you listen to it enough, you kind of know where
the next word is going to go, you know, like
a good folks song, like you already know the rhyme
(31:25):
like way before it's coming. And I think that's not
a bad setting to learn some music. You kind of
have your basse to then mess with. You know, was
there an artist in particular that as you were growing
up that you heard that When you heard this artist,
you went, that's what I want to do. Mm hmm.
It wasn't that's what I want to do. It was
(31:47):
it was like I only cared about basketball, Like that's it.
My whole life was basketball. I get up and just
dribbled with my left hand for an hour before I
went to school, and that was my whole thing. And
then it was the uh happened in the like in
the same week Miseducation Lawren Hill and Room for Squares
John Mayor both hit me and made me like I
(32:08):
had like a team crisis of like, oh that's what
like I thought I was basketball and now I'm very
confused because this is so incredible, so that those two
albums pulled me away from my mbadrians. Um yeah, we
all we all had those UM except I was you know,
fat and slow. But besides that, UM, the story has
(32:31):
been well told that that you spent you know, a
fair amount of time on the third Stree Prominends in
Santa Monica kind of you know, playing for for tips
and and and folks down there. Looking back, was there
was there one thing or a set of things that
you that you experienced there, or you that you learned
there that still serve you today. I was having to
(32:54):
talk with my dad out this today. I think the
number one thing for anyone, especially in this town, that
I would that makes me bet on you or bet
against you is the ability to um just act without
any guarantee of anything happening in return. And there's no
(33:14):
greater place to do that than every day than at
the street, because there's nobody there for you. So you
there's a decent chance that you will start to sing
and for an hour and a half two hours, no
one will care. So it's like a great muscle to
build and have these like long two hour stretches where
you're playing and no one's listening, and it it just
kind of gets you to be like, uh, you you
(33:36):
gain a strength to it, like I don't care if
you don't listen. I'm still gonna do it. And I
think that is that is one of my biggest strengths
right now, having worked on it for so long, which
you need if you're going to be in this type
of career. I read an interview with you and you
talked about something you heard Ira Glass, that the host
(33:56):
of This American Life on nbr um, who said, if
you're pursuing a creative endeavor, you have to begin with
good taste and and explain that for us and what
that means to you. It's so good. He's I tell
this to every uh, every writer that comes to me.
He goes, like, I want to do what you do.
This is like one of my favorite things to say.
(34:16):
So you get into it because you have good taste,
which is a little bit terrible because you start to
create art and you're the first one to know that
it is not good because you have good taste. So
then the only way to get what you're creating to
be at your level of taste is to just do
it a billion times and that will slowly, slowly get
you higher and high and high and higher. And I
would say one of the reasons that I beam when
(34:39):
I talk about this new album is that for me,
it is the closest to my level of taste. And
I love everything a lot, like everything I've done I love,
but this is my favorite. So fair warning, we're gonna
ask for a couple of questions from the house here,
um in in in just a minute. Um, how have
you changed since your first record? How are you? How
are you different? I could describe that by like my
(35:02):
vision boards, I totally do that. No judgments. Uh, the
beginning the board only had career stuff on it, and
then then the new ones have health and well being
and heart stuff on there and family stuff on there.
So I think that's cool. I think that's like a
part of life. And and this type of career is
(35:25):
so volatile that if you don't have those other those
other pieces, Um, I think I don't know how the
art couldn't suffer if you didn't have these grounding pieces.
What are you hoping for in two Well, we're going
on tour, which is really fun We're gonna try to
do some things we haven't done before, possible video screen,
like we're we're just putting it all together right now.
And uh, it gets me so psyched because to me,
(35:48):
the album is like the script to the movie. And
then when you have a script that you love, then
you can't wait to go make the movie. So I'm
really really excited about the tour. I think the tour
right to be incredible. There's a lot of other interesting
things that are in the works right now. I had
kind of a slow uh January, which has been wonderful
as I've been kind of taking some time to be
like what do I want to do? How do I
(36:08):
want to expand? What areas do I want to go into?
And so some new stuff coming for sure. Awesome. Well,
this is my favorite thing to do is just talk
about songwriting. So thank you for coming for coming to this.
Like if he if he called us, like you want
to just go hang out on stage like talk about
some ship, I'd be like, yeah, definitely. So the fact
that you're all here means a lot to me. Thank you.
I appreciate it. Well, we couldn't be more pleased that
(36:31):
you took the time to come down and chat about
the new record. It's great good luck on on the tour,
but we want to hear you play. Of course ladies
and a gentleman Andy Grammer. So now you know that
the key to songwriting is figuring out how to make
a vegan cookie compete with an Oreo. I loved his
description of new fatherhood is the opportunity to increase his
(36:54):
emotional access and his thoughtful approach to pop songwriting is
very much analogous to our recent discussions with Julia Michaels
and Justin Tranter. You might want to go back and
check those episodes for more insight into the art of songwriting.
So that's your required listening for today. We've got new
episodes coming to you every Thursday. If you have a comment,
(37:17):
let's keep the conversation going. We're on all the social
platforms at Grammy Museum. If you're coming to Los Angeles,
I hope you'll come visit us at the Grammy Museum.
All the info about our activities, our programs, and our
exhibits is at our website Grammy museum dot org. Finally,
big ups to the team that makes required listening happen.
Jason James, Justin Joseph Jim Cannella, Lynn Sheridan, Callie Weisman,
(37:41):
Miranda Moore, Lenn Brown, Jason Hope, Chandler Mays, Nick Stump,
Ghost and Sean and everyone and how stuff works. Until
next time, I'm Scott Goldman.
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the Clive
Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to great
music artists across the musical spectrum about their inspirations, their influences,
and their creative process. With Required Listening, I'm happy that
we can bring these conversations to you on today's show.
(00:25):
My conversation with Andy Grammer. We got together just after
he released his third full length album, entitled The Good Parts.
He's very much a gifted pop songwriter who leans toward
contemporary soul. He got his start playing on the street
in Santa Monica and graduated to higher profile gigs and
ultimately landed a label deal. He is truly an energetic
(00:48):
and prolific artist. And if you heard our recent discussion
with Imagined Dragons, you'll recall that Dan Reynolds was talking
about how that band had written well over one hundred
songs for their most recent record. Well, Andy Grammer told
me exactly the same thing, that he had written a
hundred and fifteen songs for this album. So let's go
(01:09):
to the Clive Davis Theater and listen to my conversation
with Andy Grammer. Give it up for Andy Grammer. Come
on now, h thank you, thank you good to be here,
and thank you for being here. We appreciate it. We
(01:31):
haven't seen you in a few years. Man said, how long?
How long ago? It's like four or five years since
you and I last chatted. Yeah, I know I look older.
I think you look fine. But let's talk about the
about the new album and it particularly in reading some
stuff talking about the new record, you've said you love
this album. Yeah, and im and was interested like whether
that matters all that should really matter to whether everybody
(01:55):
else likes it, But this I just really love this one.
I think that you, as you go along creating art,
you have a feeling of how you personally feel about it,
and then you go about the process of trying to
get it out of yourself and then I give it
to you. I would say the majority of the time
that you do that, by the time it's like a
terrible game of telephone. By the time it comes out
of my heart and I give it to you, I
(02:16):
would say about nine time, like ship that is totally
not what I was. By the time that I give
it to you, um, and I think that this collection
of songs has the highest percentage of what it felt
like in me to when I gave it everybody else
and and and you know, this is very much and
you've talked about this is very much a snapshot of
(02:38):
who you are at this particular Yeah, which is kind
of an argument for albums in general, right, which I
don't know where I stand totally, but that would be
the argument for keeping them, would be that, uh, with
one song you can get an idea, but with like
twelve songs, you can get a real sense of where
somebody is well and and that you know, and that
(02:59):
kind of big the question, because you know, here we
are in the digital age of the streaming age. You know,
people listening to one song and moving on. There's no
attention span, blah blah blah blah blah. But but you've
made an argument for the album as a body of
work still, and I'm wondering why that's important to you.
I don't know if I'm gonna really like willing to
stand behind that as like the best way to do it.
(03:20):
I just know that I'm gonna write a hundred and
fifteen Do you want to hear a couple because to
get the best stuff for me is always a hundred
and fifteen. Then I then part of that process is
like I have a lot of good, good things here
I would like i'd rather share now, Maybe should I
just release them one at a time. I'm open to
all things, but I still kind of do like putting
in an album. That's also a crazy thing. For each
(03:42):
of the three records you've made, you've written over one
hundred songs. Yeah, and honaw me know any other way
you know, when you do art as you're living, that
isn't in it is in need. It's this weird thing, right.
You have to eat? You need to eat. That's for
sure a need. I remember when I was working as
(04:03):
a butcher. Uh what um? I was working as a butcher,
and the guy who was the boss was like, yeah,
only get into things that people need. So I do.
I own a I own a grocery store, and I
and I own property, because like, there will always be
a need for that. And I would argue that there's
always a need for music, but there's not always a
need for like pretty good music. There's only a need
(04:26):
for the best expletive music that there that's available. At
the time. So if you get in this game, it's
not like commodity. I mean it's I mean it's it's
not something that you have to have unless you have
to have it. So it has to be a song
that makes the hair in your arms stand up. That's
what That's what I mean. And for you, you're going
for that every time. So you know, in terms of
(04:47):
the writing and the and the process, are you waiting
for that moment when the hair stands up on your arm.
What's really messed up about this is that I can't
tell in the moment whether it's there. I can tell
whether I feel like it's true, which is another thing
that's so hard to do. I don't know why. It's
(05:07):
that it's so hard true to you or to do
what you think true about life. To like write a
line that is true that resonates with everybody is like, yeah,
I go through that as well. That is really really
like to write your truth in a way that's eloquent
is so hard. If you just write down, and if
you sit down, like try to write your story, you
will quickly notice that as you start to write, it's like, well,
(05:29):
that's not totally it, that's not exactly how it feels.
That's not you know. That's so to write your truth
is very difficult. Same for going back to like what's
in your heart too, Then hand is somebody actually have
them feel it. So the only way that I know
how to get closest to that is to do it
a billion times and then pick the ones that are
the closest. You know. I had this. I had this
fascinating conversation with Julie Michaels a couple of months ago.
(05:49):
Great songwriter now hit artist in her own but she
she's been writing songs for other artists for quite a
long time, and she said, you know, it's much easier
to write about if you will my challenges and then
give that to someone else to sing. It's a whole
different discussion if all of a sudden, I'm writing my
truth and I'm singing it and that's what you do. Yeah,
(06:13):
pop music great is when it's simple. The great simple
lines are the ones that make you feel and are
the best. Usually what makes the simple great, I've found
is when you have a lot of emotion about a
certain topic. So then when you just say one line
about it, it means so much and you can only,
and if you can get it down to even like
a syllable, that's the best. So if you can get
(06:33):
a syllable to pack the hardest punch, that's pop music.
Right when you're writing a hundred fifteen songs, do you
even have a hundred and fifteen things about yourself that,
when distilled down, pack that punch. That's probably the hardest
part of all of it is finding the thing that
is worth writing about. And that's another thing why I
like to write a hundred fifteen because you think that
you have it and then by the time that it's
(06:54):
our only done, it's not. It's not it usually you know.
Here's the other thing. So, so you talked about pop
music and occasional only. You know, pop music can be
um labeled as, for lack of a better term, inconsequential.
Sure that it's a confection, but you take a different approach.
Within that there can be meaningful things that are said. Yeah,
(07:16):
it's a dangerous game because if you add too much meaning,
it sinks. So I can't make it too weighty. No, yea,
this is the dance right. I would consider myself. I
don't really like vegan food, but in this analogy, let's
use it. It'd be like, how do you how do
you make a vegan cookie compete with an oreo? Yeah,
(07:36):
it's it's really really hard to do, right, But I
bet there's someone uh nailed it. How do you make
uh I'm gonna do it well, But here's what I mean.
But the idea is, how do you make sugar free
(07:57):
compete with sugar? It's really hard to do. There's there
are people that have done it, and we've all had
situations where like, you gotta taste this and you're like,
I don't sure, Guys gonna say terrible, and then you
taste you like, that's pretty good. There's a reason why
they call it coke zero. Yeah, that's kind of what
I love to try and do, and um, it's really fun.
I'm not sure how we got from pop songwriting to
(08:17):
coke zero? But is it? Is that literally the only
cookie that's vegan? Probably? I just know there's only one
problem with like fat free food. It doesn't have any
fat in it. Besides that. So this is your third
full length album, is it important for you to keep
a certain element of surprise for your listeners? I e.
(08:37):
You had this massive hit on the last record Honey
I'm good, people maybe coming to the new record and thinking, oh,
I'm going to hear the next iteration of honey, I'm good.
But is it important for you to kind of, you know,
keep people kind of on their toes about your sound. No,
it's just so it's just so hard to get something
(09:01):
that's good, genuinely good that when you hear you're like,
that's good. That's really really, really hard to get. So
I don't care about surprising you. I just want to
give you something that's great. Like if you've ever left
the movie you've heard of an album that it ends
and you don't know why, but you feel awesome, really
a movie, and you're like, that was so great, Like
good art is my favorite drug. It makes me feel
(09:23):
a certain way. And to be able to try and
make that and then give it to people, and then
already with this album, like people will send me messages
that that I haven't gotten before, which is really just
like what I haven't really gotten the thing of like
you made me cry in my car, which I didn't expect.
I know that when you go after deeper topics that
can sometimes happen, but that's I'm getting some of those
on this album, which is cool. It's a different area
(09:45):
for me to h kind of be in which I appreciate. Yeah,
that's a that's actually great. That that's actually great. You
recently became a father. Yeah, um, we were just talking.
That's awesome. Five and a half months a right, So
how did father her change you as an artist? Well,
it definitely opens you up to a whole new area
of life, which is fun to write about. It's definitely
(10:08):
one of those things that I'm talking about that is
worth distilling down. So it's such a big thing that
when you're able to distill it down to like a
couple of songs I'll play one tonight to aligne, it
holds because it's a big enough thing. Right. The song
I'll played a night is called Always. When you say
to your daughter, you and me will be always, that's
like a simple little line that means So it's so cool,
(10:28):
So just that in general, and then you know it
just kind of opens your heart more. Well, you've used
the term emotional access. Yes, you have tons of emotional
access to depths of yourself that are usually reserved pre kids.
I don't know, like a yoga retreat with like the
one time that you like, something amazing happens and you
all have this incredible dinner and you go real deep
(10:50):
and it's like, holy crap. And and now with your kid,
you're like going there just because you put it in
a car seat. It's just a level of intensity that
like you're jumping in an out of that's really really tough.
One of the other terms that you used, you know,
in terms of writing for this album, was authentic, you know,
being authentic, And to me, that kind of that goes
hand in hand with this whole experience you're talking about
(11:12):
becoming a father. Is that all of a sudden there
is frankly nothing much more authentic parent than parenthood. Yeah,
it's been's really sweet because I work really hard and
my brain spins a lot about what to do next
and how do you make something great and how do
you stay on top of stuff, and so to have
this little girl who's around that will when I get
(11:33):
in the door lights that all that on fire. My
brain just goes like, this is where I'm supposed to
be right now. And so for me, that's really sweet.
And I'm wondering in that process because you know, kids
will have that ability to completely get you focused on
them and and for all the right reasons and not
on you know, whatever your challenges are, whatever your issues
(11:56):
might be, whatever your songwriting stuff might be, but that's
got to be a great kind of yeah, because pause
for the creative side totally. And you you have to
make deals with yourself in my profession, like I make
a deal with myself that I'm definitely good enough to
do this, and then the world will come in in
many different ways and go. Let you know, you do
(12:16):
a performance on TV and everybody hates it and they're like,
you're totally not good enough, You're the worst. And then
you'll have a great thing that will be a huge
hit and they'll be like you are so much better
than everybody else, And you have to consistently just be like,
all right, I'm just gonna like, no matter what you say,
I'm gonna put myself in the middle here and know
that I'm just good enough to keep doing this. A
lot of times you take all that home and you're
fighting it. Depending on how it went, you're fighting to
(12:38):
get yourself back down to the middle, or you're fighting
yourself to bring yourself back up from the dungeon and
when I come home or even just like face time
her from somewhere, it makes it way easier to let
all that becau it's not important anyway, but it's really
hard to let go of it. And she's kind of
like the neutralizer and you pick up a baby and
it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Sonically, listening to the alb them,
(13:00):
this is different. This is different than than the last record,
for instance, And um, pardon me if I'm offending anyone here,
grown ass Man Child. Sure, UM song on the record
has this tremendous kind of bass drop thing, which is
not something we've heard from you previously. Talk a little
bit about kind of going in that direction. If you're
(13:21):
going to be in this in the pop game, you
are constantly hearing what's occurring right now, and you're also
going with what you love on your own. And the
worst thing you can do me and my manager calling
me too, which is like a sound comes out and
you be like and me as well on that right, right,
I'll follow that, right. But there's an interesting dance there
when it's like, but I'm inspired by that, so I
(13:42):
think it's all intention. I've definitely written songs where I'm like,
I know, in my gut, I'm just trying to rewrite
this song, and then there's other ones like oh, that's
a really interesting vibe. And then then I create this
which is my own thing. And so that was really
just a blast. So at the end, you know, and
when you go to the studio, all bets it off you.
You you do whatever comes to you, and you have
you have fun, and then you kind of reflect later
(14:04):
on where it sits or how it's actually affecting you.
And that one just was too good to night And
you did that with Oak. Yeah, OK, tell me about
first of all, how did you guys? He's great. Yeah.
We did a bunch of sessions for this record. We
wrote a couple of different songs, but this one it
was basically Taylor Swift has has that song twenty two.
I don't know about you, but I'm feeling in twenty two,
and I thought how ridiculous it would be to write
(14:26):
the thirty two year old version of that. Yeah, yeah,
I'd have to write the sixty two year old. Yeah, yeah,
I want to hear it. I do know that so
sweet because that's like a scary thing. But if you
nail that everybody wants to hear it. I swear good.
I've got three years. And so you know, usually a
song like gross Man Child like usually to that level
(14:48):
of weird, I'll send that and we'll all be like,
I mean, that's ridiculous, you can't put that out, but
that's really fun. And then over after a little while
and you just keep finding yourself putting it on and like,
I think I like this, you you know, but here's
here's the thing that that struck me. Again. I'm gonna
reference my conversation with Julie Michaels, because again she's working
in that pop vein and and and I asked her
(15:09):
the same question that that we were just talking about,
in terms of sort of, you know, pop music as
a confection is something that that's here today and kind
of gone tomorrow and doesn't really have that heft, if
you will, or a space for real creativity. And she said,
you know, I think pop music is a place where
you can be the most experimental, where you can establish
(15:32):
ideas and trends much more so than in other styles
and genres. And I think that's kind of where, listening
to your three albums, you live there. Yeah, I Love.
It's my favorite space because if you I really like
to try to distill down a very real emotion and
(15:52):
then make it simple and catchy, and and that's what
stays with people, and that has the ability to get
into like that if you do it, there's a key
directly into someone's heart that you don't know. And that's
such an incredible process. And the best songwriters that have
done it throughout time, they find these emotions and then
they're able to get it so simple. And so to me,
it's always like, how do I get the line right
(16:14):
or the idea across, and then from there then then
let's play. Then then the sounds and and the production
of it becomes very kind of not easy, but that's
way more fun and lighthearted. But the hard, hard, really
intense work comes about simplifying it. And I think sometimes
that you know, people don't quite get the amount of
(16:35):
work that goes making something so supposed to sound it's
supposed to sound like you just said it. Yes, love
was such an easy game to play, like that's so simple,
but it's like, I know what that feels like. We've
all been there. We're like ship yesterday, we were turn
it and they did that over and over and over
again to a place where it's like obnoxious. So um,
(16:57):
you know, right, writing with Oak, and there were other
other collaborations on the record. Now I want to talk
to you about collaborating in terms of co writing versus
versus writing on your own. And you've talked about how
um one kind of supports and informs the other. Talks
about the benefits of writing with others. Okay, one of
(17:19):
the biggest benefits of writing with others is that it
makes you write, which it forces it forces you to write.
If you have a session on the books with somebody else,
you're going to write a song that day. If you
have a session by yourself, you might And that's just real.
And they're therefore to get to a D fifteen. I
don't know if I can get to a hundred fifteen
by just setting up a day like a hundred fifteen
(17:41):
days and me writing it every day. So I realized
that my chances of getting something great are better if
I'm writing with other people, because it will make me
write more. And I'm at a place where I'm confident
enough to where I know that we're gonna tell my
story because I know how to do that. I know
how to like stop in the middle of the room
and be like, this is totally not my story. You
guys wanna go write that song with somebody else, But
like I know how to bring myself to it. In
(18:03):
the beginning, I was very hesitant to do it because
I wasn't totally clear on how to own the room
as far as what we were saying. But now that's
mostly the special sauce that I bring is myself, my
point of view, and hopefully some of my melody sense.
And then we have all these other people that help
make that work, you know, and being the artist that
is it's going to be on your record, you can
kind of call the shots in that way. And so
(18:25):
that I really enjoy co writing, even almost mostly for
we will write a song today that's a serious photo respect,
which is that actually writing is a hard thing to
make yourself to. Being a collaborator is not necessarily simple,
And I'm wondering what is it about you that makes
you a good collaborator. First of all, you just gotta
(18:45):
be hopefully good. Hang it's really important, like really just
be nice, have a good time, make the room feel good. Um,
come with ideas and nothing worse than just like starting
starting off with no one has any ideas. So I
usually do about an hour or two of writing before
I to the session to at least have something to offer,
Like if someone says something that is really good but
(19:06):
not what you would say. So if someone says, like
in the room something about drinking alcohol, which I don't do,
and it's not so now you've taken out of my story.
But the problem is that it's a great line. Now
it's on me to beat that or else the vibe
is screwed because if I just go like, no, we
can't do that because I'm drink alcohol. But the line
was great. Now now you're annoying. Yeah, yeah, now you've
(19:27):
shut you've shut it down. You're the worst. So so
immediately you better come with something cooler and better and
more interesting. And that's like kind of the dance that
I do is to like not let the vibe drop
even though I don't drink that, okay, okay, because you
want to make it authentic and and real and something
that every we can relate to, but still tell your room. Yeah,
And oftentimes this is what people that you've just met. Yeah,
(19:49):
a lot of times that that is true. On your
third album, you start to meet the people that are
that you really deal with, so there's less of that,
and you go you try to get with them. Do
you remember your first co write? Who is your first
co write? Man, I don't totally remember. I remember. I
didn't like it. I thought in the beginning of all
that co writing was was diluting my thing, and that
is the exact opposite once you get good at it.
(20:12):
You know, we talked about how prolific you are if
you're writing a hundred songs for an album. Yeah, then
you have to be writing not only when you're you know,
kind of comfortable and hanging around the house totally, but
when you're on the road. Yeah, we just did that.
It almost killed me. And almost to a person, every
artist that I've ever talked to, with rare exception, has said,
writing on the road is impossible. It's not impossible, but
(20:35):
it's really tough because the road is already so much
being asked of you, like the show is at night,
which is already weird. It's a weird profession to have
the most important thing of your day started like eleven.
So you have to kind of like take your break before,
but if you're a motivated person, you don't. And also
(20:55):
there's all that adrenaline. You wake up and you're doing
other things and then you're by the time get there,
so you kind of burn out. But we it's also
really fun. I feel like the last tour I went
on was about two months and I brought writers out
onto the bus. We bet yeah, so many writers and
I had a studio on the back and some of
the songs that on this album We're kind of started
there or came from different things. And uh, it was
(21:17):
really intense, but it was awesome. It was like an
andy camp. It was like all the things I liked
all day, from the moment you wake up the moment
you go to sleep. I mean, you know, I guess
the sports analogy would be, you know, when teams go
on the road, they're they're incredibly focused because there's no
distractions that they would find when their home. Is it
(21:38):
somewhat analogous Somewhat It's tough because it's hard to describe,
like you ever just you just take a flight anywhere
and you realize that you didn't really do anything that
should make you as tired as you are. By the
time you get there, you didn't you sat like got up,
like waited in the line. Then you sat on the plane,
you watched a movie, and then you get to wherever
(22:00):
you're going, like, I'm exhausted and I don't totally know
why that is, but that's real. So to to like
fight through that whatever that is, and just and work
extra hard because you already have meat, and you have
all these other things that are needed of you need
to go radio stations and all this different stuff. So
then to pull out creativity along pull out songs out
of yourself while that's happening is very difficult. But also
(22:23):
a lot of what happened was I stayed sharp. I
do think it's like being in shape. So I stayed
sharp for those two months that when I got off tour,
I went and wrote some of my favorite songs. When
I got home, I was like, Okay, cool, I'm not
super exhausted, but I'm still in shape. I've been writing
melodies every single day, and then we wrote some of
some of the really great ones. I could ask the
(22:46):
cliche question, you know what comes first for you? Melody?
You know, melody, your lyrics. But you've talked about and
I found this fascinating. You've talked about emotion leading the process. Yeah,
can you explain that I'm at a place where I
have When you've written so many songs, you can definitely
sit with someone else and write a good song. We
(23:07):
can write one and it'll be good because we have
technique and we've written and I don't know four songs
at this point, so like, I'm going to write a
song that like the average person will be like, let's
a pretty good song. But what gets me excited is
when you write something that is a truth about being alive.
And I use this analogy a lot, but like like
a scientific proof that hasn't been written in in that
(23:27):
exact way yet. So that is what makes me excited,
and that is my That is where I spend most
of my time, is trying to get those lines, those
things that when you say them, it makes someone feel
like they're going through it as well. And you you
said it, that's what's the hardest part. But the problem
is you're you're kind of trying to get that at
the same time that you're writing melodies and chord changes
(23:49):
and all this different stuff. So it's kind of it's
it's not like one thing happens before the others. Do
you basically go after it all at the same time
and then look at it after and go like nope,
like that what and a pie chart of songwriting? For me,
that's what the majority of it is. Is like there'd
be that there'd be a pie chart and it would
be like a huge thing and they'd be like a
(24:09):
little sliver and and this whole thing would be like nope,
and then they'd be like a little slipper, like yes, yeah,
that's what that's what I do. So here's another complication
for you. Your wife is a songwriter. Yeah, I think
one could imagine the challenges inherent in that in that
(24:30):
um um. First, first of all, do do you do
you at what? Well, here's the question. All right, I've
been I've been thinking about how to approach this. And
let me tell you a a story that you don't even
have to have talking Moore. I'll give you all. I'll
give you everything you need in this short little story.
I am a serial collaborator, like I can't stop adding
(24:50):
onto things or like tweaking with like it's what I do,
It's what I love to do. So we were singing
this is almost embarrassing. We were singing Etsy Bitsy Spider
to my daughter and the her spider. The water came
the right and then out of nowhere, I like veer
off into a bridge of the itsy bitsy Spider and
(25:12):
my wife was like, that's I hate you you do
you know you do that to my stuff, You do
that to every Just enough with it enough And that's
our life is like consistently going back and forth with
with like if you know she has an idea and
she's playing it, I can't help but go over and
mess with it, saying with her. It's really hard when
you're both songwriters if one of you do on a
piano downstairs and the other one shouts down like no,
(25:36):
you know, like that happens, and you have to be
really delicate with how you deal with that with each other. Um,
we have different hats that we decide we're gonna wear.
When you're asking for someone's opinion, like hey, can you
can you tell me about the song, and then you
like hit pause and you're like, I actually just want
you to be my wife and say you love it.
That's all I wanted. That's all that's um. But sometimes
(25:57):
she'll bring me stuff or all bring her stuff and
be like tell me what you really think. So you
just have to kind of beat yourself to the punch
and go like, this is what I need right now.
If you're writing as many as a hundred or a
hundred and fifteen songs, is there a criteria for the
twelve that make or the ten or whatever it is
that that make it on the on the album? There's
got to be something awesome about it to me. You know,
(26:19):
you'd like to think that they're all perfect, uh, And
I would say that they aren't all perfect, but there's
like something about it that you can't let go. Whether
it's the way that the drum bee and this melody
go together. For me, it's usually is there that is there?
The truth in? There? Is there? That? Did I capture
the truth in a in an interesting, cool, catchyway? Um?
And that's when I'm when I'm so excited about this
(26:41):
my last album. To me personally, I feel that that
it happened a lot and it's so fun and exciting,
and I find myself on stage like so giddy again
to go sing new songs. Because when I feel like
I have caught the truth, I know how hard that is.
And there's almost a part of me that doesn't feel
like proud that I got it. It's more just like
so grateful that I get to sing this truth every
(27:04):
night because I've been on stage. I have songs that
I don't think the truth is there. And when you're
singing and it's not in there, it's miserable. So when
you do have enough and now like three albums, you're
you're only picking your favorite from the different albums that
you think is all the truth, and then you get
up and you sing and it's it's it's the best.
There's nothing better. We've been talking about, you know, songwriting
(27:24):
and your evolution as a songwriter and and and I'm
wondering has what you listened to has that evolved? Yeah,
you know, I'm listening right now. I'm listening to a
ton of things that don't have anything to do with
pop music with like who like So, my daughter is
named Louisiana, and I traveled so many different places, and
(27:48):
I feel like everywhere I go, um, I have a
unique perspective, which is just my own, but a perspective
of what do you guys do better here than other places?
When you go up to Seattle and you see the
way they deal with coffee, and you're like, gonna do
this pretty good, like really care more than other places. Uh.
You go to Austin and you're like, whoa, there's there's
so much live music here, and you go city city City,
(28:11):
and you have like a perspective being like it's it's
not here, and then it's here. You guys care more
about this. And when I landed in Louisiana, New Orleans
in general, there's a joy to life that was more
than anywhere I've been just and there's like good things
that come from that and horrendous things that come from that,
and but just overall, like you guys do joy better
(28:34):
than other places, Like you're you smile bigger here. Um.
And so that's why I named her Louisiana, because she's
so joy to me. But because of that, I made
a whole playlist of songs that had the name Louisiana,
and it's all this jazz. So it got me psyched
and I have so much of my year has been
just like listening to tons of jazz and Louis Armstrong.
(28:54):
It's been great. And also because it doesn't make me
work it's more, it's more joy. There's like a stress
sometimes when you turn on the radio and you're on
you know that you could be on the radio that
now I'm now, I'm working, I don't now if I
don't come what a terrible thing to turn on the radio.
And if my song doesn't come on, it's not cool?
(29:17):
What a miserable existence. So you turn off the radio
and you listen to other things. And I check in
all the time, and I love listening to like the
top Spotify numbers, and I see like I will listen
to the radio. But when I listen to the radio,
it's like, um, okay, why is that working? What's happening?
It's much more like like forensic dissecting, like oh that
prey was sick. Why let me like run that back
(29:38):
and see why. And then so some of your joy
comes from different places. I got like a huge Randy
Newman phase that was awesome speaking Louisiana. Yeah, only wrote
one of the best Louisiana's best ever. Yeah, um, speaking
Randy Newman. Are there artists that you go back to
consistently for inspiration? John Mayer's one, because he's so good. Uh,
(30:01):
I think he's underrated lyrically. Everybody knows he's like a
great guitar player and that's so fun. But I think
he's also like a super word smith, um, and that
was what caught me originally on this first album and
then throughout. So I go back to him because I
think he can find at his best, he really knows
how to do this truth thing and I'm talking about um.
(30:21):
Whenever I feel off my center, I listened to Miseducation
Lauren Hill because she she does telling someone what's good
for them is inherently not what you want, and somehow
she did it the coolest way, the dopest way ever
on that album. So I go back to that. Stevie
(30:42):
Wonder does it too. He knows how to he knows
how to sing happy, and everybody lists agrees instead of
being like so cheesy, yeah, those three are kind of
like yeah, um, you know, I do want to roll
the video tape back, just just just for a minute.
What music do you remember hearing growing up? So my
dad is a children's singer, but before he was a
(31:04):
children's singer in my like super formative years, he was
a folk singer. And I would be backstage and they
would go out and sing these folks songs. And what's
cool about folks is like there's not a ton of
left turns in folk music. You kind of inherently, if
you listen to it enough, you kind of know where
the next word is going to go, you know, like
a good folks song, like you already know the rhyme
(31:25):
like way before it's coming. And I think that's not
a bad setting to learn some music. You kind of
have your basse to then mess with. You know, was
there an artist in particular that as you were growing
up that you heard that When you heard this artist,
you went, that's what I want to do. Mm hmm.
It wasn't that's what I want to do. It was
(31:47):
it was like I only cared about basketball, Like that's it.
My whole life was basketball. I get up and just
dribbled with my left hand for an hour before I
went to school, and that was my whole thing. And
then it was the uh happened in the like in
the same week Miseducation Lawren Hill and Room for Squares
John Mayor both hit me and made me like I
(32:08):
had like a team crisis of like, oh that's what
like I thought I was basketball and now I'm very
confused because this is so incredible, so that those two
albums pulled me away from my mbadrians. Um yeah, we
all we all had those UM except I was you know,
fat and slow. But besides that, UM, the story has
(32:31):
been well told that that you spent you know, a
fair amount of time on the third Stree Prominends in
Santa Monica kind of you know, playing for for tips
and and and folks down there. Looking back, was there
was there one thing or a set of things that
you that you experienced there, or you that you learned
there that still serve you today. I was having to
(32:54):
talk with my dad out this today. I think the
number one thing for anyone, especially in this town, that
I would that makes me bet on you or bet
against you is the ability to um just act without
any guarantee of anything happening in return. And there's no
(33:14):
greater place to do that than every day than at
the street, because there's nobody there for you. So you
there's a decent chance that you will start to sing
and for an hour and a half two hours, no
one will care. So it's like a great muscle to
build and have these like long two hour stretches where
you're playing and no one's listening, and it it just
kind of gets you to be like, uh, you you
(33:36):
gain a strength to it, like I don't care if
you don't listen. I'm still gonna do it. And I
think that is that is one of my biggest strengths
right now, having worked on it for so long, which
you need if you're going to be in this type
of career. I read an interview with you and you
talked about something you heard Ira Glass, that the host
(33:56):
of This American Life on nbr um, who said, if
you're pursuing a creative endeavor, you have to begin with
good taste and and explain that for us and what
that means to you. It's so good. He's I tell
this to every uh, every writer that comes to me.
He goes, like, I want to do what you do.
This is like one of my favorite things to say.
(34:16):
So you get into it because you have good taste,
which is a little bit terrible because you start to
create art and you're the first one to know that
it is not good because you have good taste. So
then the only way to get what you're creating to
be at your level of taste is to just do
it a billion times and that will slowly, slowly get
you higher and high and high and higher. And I
would say one of the reasons that I beam when
(34:39):
I talk about this new album is that for me,
it is the closest to my level of taste. And
I love everything a lot, like everything I've done I love,
but this is my favorite. So fair warning, we're gonna
ask for a couple of questions from the house here,
um in in in just a minute. Um, how have
you changed since your first record? How are you? How
are you different? I could describe that by like my
(35:02):
vision boards, I totally do that. No judgments. Uh, the
beginning the board only had career stuff on it, and
then then the new ones have health and well being
and heart stuff on there and family stuff on there.
So I think that's cool. I think that's like a
part of life. And and this type of career is
(35:25):
so volatile that if you don't have those other those
other pieces, Um, I think I don't know how the
art couldn't suffer if you didn't have these grounding pieces.
What are you hoping for in two Well, we're going
on tour, which is really fun We're gonna try to
do some things we haven't done before, possible video screen,
like we're we're just putting it all together right now.
And uh, it gets me so psyched because to me,
(35:48):
the album is like the script to the movie. And
then when you have a script that you love, then
you can't wait to go make the movie. So I'm
really really excited about the tour. I think the tour
right to be incredible. There's a lot of other interesting
things that are in the works right now. I had
kind of a slow uh January, which has been wonderful
as I've been kind of taking some time to be
like what do I want to do? How do I
(36:08):
want to expand? What areas do I want to go into?
And so some new stuff coming for sure. Awesome. Well,
this is my favorite thing to do is just talk
about songwriting. So thank you for coming for coming to this.
Like if he if he called us, like you want
to just go hang out on stage like talk about
some ship, I'd be like, yeah, definitely. So the fact
that you're all here means a lot to me. Thank you.
I appreciate it. Well, we couldn't be more pleased that
(36:31):
you took the time to come down and chat about
the new record. It's great good luck on on the tour,
but we want to hear you play. Of course ladies
and a gentleman Andy Grammer. So now you know that
the key to songwriting is figuring out how to make
a vegan cookie compete with an Oreo. I loved his
description of new fatherhood is the opportunity to increase his
(36:54):
emotional access and his thoughtful approach to pop songwriting is
very much analogous to our recent discussions with Julia Michaels
and Justin Tranter. You might want to go back and
check those episodes for more insight into the art of songwriting.
So that's your required listening for today. We've got new
episodes coming to you every Thursday. If you have a comment,
(37:17):
let's keep the conversation going. We're on all the social
platforms at Grammy Museum. If you're coming to Los Angeles,
I hope you'll come visit us at the Grammy Museum.
All the info about our activities, our programs, and our
exhibits is at our website Grammy museum dot org. Finally,
big ups to the team that makes required listening happen.
Jason James, Justin Joseph Jim Cannella, Lynn Sheridan, Callie Weisman,
(37:41):
Miranda Moore, Lenn Brown, Jason Hope, Chandler Mays, Nick Stump,
Ghost and Sean and everyone and how stuff works. Until
next time, I'm Scott Goldman.
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