September 26, 2026 • 28 mins
It’s true! Once upon a time, Irish separatists based in the United States thought invading Canada was the best way to reunify Ireland. Join the Ben, Noel, and Max as they explore the rise of the Fenians (and, along the way, why Canada is more than capable of defending itself) in today's Classic episode.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow ridiculous historians, have you heard of Canada? It's been
in the news a little bit lately. Yeah, practicing softball questions,
you guys. Yeah, man, yeah. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I've never met a Canadian that I didn't like.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I wish I could say the same, man, honestly. Fair, fair, fair.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
To be honest, though, I haven't met that many Canadians,
but they've all been very pleasant people. Yeah, yeah, I
agree with you.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We know that. Ireland as a culture has for a
long time been separated. There's Ireland, the nation, and then
there's Northern Ireland, which has been controlled by the United Kingdom.
A lot of people want a unified Ireland. We're being
very diplomatic in how we describe that. But in 2019,
(00:49):
we learned that once upon a time, people who wanted
to reunify Ireland thought the best way to do it
was to invade Canada.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Man, I think Donald Trump must have listened to this
episode of ours back when it came out in July
of 2019.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So who are these Finians? Folks, let's find out. Welcome
(01:42):
to the show, ridiculous historians, and hello to you and
whatever neck of the global woods you find yourself today.
I got to tell you, this episode and this topic
for today's episode is calling up some memories for me
of a very strange weekend. There was one time where
(02:02):
circumstances found me in Dublin for like 26 hours.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You do that from time to time, don't you, Ben?
Things happen, Noel.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Things happen. We were just before we went on the
air asking our super producer, Casey Pegram, who is probably
the most well-traveled of the three of us, if he
had ever been to Ireland. And Casey said, You said no, right?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't know if I'm the most traveled in terms
of countries visited or if I'm just the most frequently
traveled because I keep going to Paris every year. Because
I actually, I kind of made my tour of Europe
and then I just stayed in Paris after that. And
every time I get ready to go, I'm like, I
should see some more places. And then I'm just like, no,
I'm not. I'm just going to stay here.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What was amazing about Ireland, the very small amount of
time I spent there, was everybody had these amazing musical accents.
And this might not seem like a big deal to
a lot of us listening in Europe or maybe Australia
or other places, but here in the US, North Americans,
and probably this includes Canadians as well, love the Irish accent.
(03:10):
I heard two guys getting into a street fight at
like two in the morning, and I thought they were
just being very kind to each other. One of them
was like, I'll be seeing you then. And the other
one said, oh, no, I'll be seeing you. Oh, you'll
be seeing me, will you? Oh, no, I'll be seeing you.
And he's like, yeah. And this is the line the
guy used. He said, I'll see you very well.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And I turned around. Oh, you'll see me very well.
I see you even better.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I turned around and the police force, LaGuardia, They're called
they were holding these guys back and one of them
had a bottle. He was like brandishing at the other one.
It sounded like this very polite, maybe slightly drunken conversation
between friends. Right. Who are just trying to like one
up their bromance. But no, those guys were going to
(03:57):
beat the tar out of each other.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
We've we've we've probably sounded that way to passers by before.
Slightly in our cups on the porch of the old local.
This is the bar that we frequent. Yes, our local
bar is called The Local. It's very true. Great chicken wings.
Great chicken wings, really easy to remember. Ben, I want
to take an opportunity here at the top of the
show real quick. Yeah. You and I had a very
interesting text exchange the other night where you mentioned the
(04:22):
fact that you had– an odd amount of pictures of
a mutual friend of ours on your phone, and you
asked me if I wanted to subscribe to a service
called NickPix.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
NickPix.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
NickPix. And you just sent me this email as though
it were from a bot saying, you have subscribed to NickPix.
Press F in the chat. Rename for good luck. Unsubscribe
by being lame. And then I hit F. And then
Ben proceeded to send me like a dozen screenshots of
the iTunes reviews for this show. And my response was,
(04:50):
what the hell? That was brutal. I avoid these reviews
like the plague. Explain yourself, sir.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh, also, don't forget that you did get, along with that,
some top-notch Nick picks, which a friend of ours, artist
Nick Benson.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Nick Benson, Admiral Turbo, he goes by. But I bring
it up because I wanted to read– most of these
were quite good. And Ben has a good point that
a lot of our iTunes reviews or Apple podcasts are
either one star or five stars.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Depending on where you fall on the spectrum. But this
is one I quite enjoyed. The subject is such a
waste of resources. And here's the review. So one star.
The topics and headlines of the new podcast episodes are great,
but when you listen, you realize they aren't there to
cover it, but to go off on nerd tangents and
dialogue that is completely irrelevant. No offense, but I don't
(05:38):
want to listen to your side convos and inside jokes.
Stay on topic and present the story. One of the
guys is the worst and always takes it off topic.
All caps. No one cares. Stick to the content. He
didn't identify who which one of us was the worst.
But I would conjecture that if you're listening to the
show now and you're still listening, then you're one of
(05:58):
those people who likes the side convos in the nerd
chat at the top of the show.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I remember that one. And I don't know who that is.
I feel like they're naming all three of us. There
was one there was one review. I can't remember if
I sent this to you.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
That made me laugh.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And it made me think of you, Casey, because a
lot of it was telling us not to. They were like,
we don't understand. I don't understand who this Casey Pegram is.
Why are these guys fawning? That's the word they used, fawning.
Great word, F-A-W-N. Why are they fawning over this person
we don't know? And I thought, wow, you have not
listened to the show ever because super producer Casey Pegram
(06:35):
has been there since day one.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I did see that review and it cracked me up.
Just somebody coming into the middle and being like, who
is this guy? Why do they keep mentioning this guy?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, I'll tell you, we fawn for good reason. I mean,
it's a fawn that comes honestly because Casey Pegram is
one of both of our favorite people. And if you
can't get on board with that, listener, then maybe you
need to find yourself a different podcast.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
We literally have a t-shirt with Casey's face on it.
Thanks again for letting us pull that one off, Casey.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'm wearing it right now.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
And Noel is wearing one of them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
So.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Folks, I'm as baffled by all of this as you are.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, they don't know the backstory of how I spent
the better part of, what, seven months trying to talk
you into letting me get a shirt with your face
on it. And you politely told me it was weird.
But now we're doing it for a show. Yeah, that's
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That was a severely.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I'll tolerate you, Ben, response from our good friend Casey.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I'm fine with that. I think Casey held it together delightfully.
Speaking of holding it together delightfully, we should probably do
an actual show.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, right. So I'm not mentioning the beautiful lilt of the...
How do we get to the reviews? I'm not mentioning
the beautiful lilt of the Irish accent for nothing. Today's
show does concern the Irish, but not necessarily Ireland. We
were talking about a time when the Irish invaded our
(08:03):
fair country to the north of the U.S., Canada.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Didn't we do another Canada invasion story pretty recently? We did.
It was Fort Blunder, which was built on the wrong
side of the border. That's right, because we were concerned
about an invasion from Canada. This episode concerns an invasion from...
of Canada by the Finians, who were members of a
19th century movement that was all about Irish independence from Britain.
(08:32):
They were a secret organization. They were outlawed in the
British Empire. And they were also known in Britain as
the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Is this a precursor to the IRA, Ben?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I believe, I believe that is correct, at least in
terms of concepts, right? So the IRA would be thematically
descended or ideologically descended, if not directly descended. So tell
us a little bit about those roots then, Ben. Of
the Finians, sure. The Finian Brotherhood was founded in the
United States in 1858, and it was a precursor to
(09:13):
things like the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The members were known
as Finians, and Mahoney, John Mahoney, that is, one of
the founders, was a Gaelic scholar who named his organization
after the Fianna legendary band of Irish warriors. So they
traced their origins back to the 1790s when there was
(09:37):
a rebellion seeking to end British rule in Ireland, first
for self-government and then later to establish an Irish republic.
When John O'Mahony had founded this, he did it after
he had traveled to the continent to avoid arrest in Ireland.
And then he had lived in France for a little bit,
still planning to overthrow British rule in Ireland. And in 1856,
(10:01):
he came to the United States to found the Finian Brotherhood.
And in some ways, the Finian Brotherhood was aiming to
become a replacement Irish government. They had adopted a constitution
that rules for general governance, and so on. And this was,
(10:23):
it's important to note, this was an American branch of
this larger Finian movement. And the main thing that they
did originally was to raise funds and obtain weapons to
send to Ireland. The mission of the Finians was always
ultimately to overthrow and drive out the British forces.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So here's the thing, too. Most of the Finians had
been made super battle-weary and hardened, rugged even, by the
American Civil War where they had fought. They were experienced.
They had seen plenty of brutal and bloody battle, and
they were very, very skilled. Right.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Out of all these immigrants who had fought in the
Civil War, 10,000 joined the Finians after the war ended
in 1865.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
That's the U.S. Civil War.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Under the leadership of a brigadier general, Thomas William Sweeney.
They also elected that government in exile, what we're talking about,
New York, and they changed their strategy. They said, instead
of just moving money and soldiers and weapons to Ireland,
let's do something else. Let's take the fight for Irish
(11:38):
freedom to British Canada. Here's how it came about. In 1865,
an American ship called Aaron's Hope, E-R-I-N-S, was intercepted by
the British Navy on the way to Ireland. The ship
was loaded with soldiers and ammunition bound for this planned
(12:03):
Finian revolt. The mission failed, and the Finian branch in
America held an emergency convention in Philadelphia. a guy named
William Randall Roberts, who was a radical firebrand, was elected
president of the Finians, and he said, let's invade the
British North American colonies of Canada. And they thought this
(12:26):
was maybe not a good idea. They thought it was
something they could pull off. They thought it was possible
and plausible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Because even then, I mean, the Canadians probably had the
same reputation they have now as being pretty chill, agreeable folks, right?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It's interesting because— The Finians already had some support politically
in the U.S., and the government didn't really mess with
their meetings or gatherings and stuff. And Canada's borders were
virtually unsecured. The only guards they had were citizen volunteers.
So all these veterans who have military experience and are
(13:02):
armed because they were able to get this. I didn't
know this. After the Civil War, they were able to
purchase their rifles and ammo at a super deep discount.
They're like, hey, congratulations on surviving. This usually costs, you know, $ 20,
but we'll give it to you for two.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Just because of like as a reward almost for their service?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You are alive. Here's a deep discount for you. That's,
you know, better than nothing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I know the next thing you want is another gun.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Another gun and more stuff to do. That's right. And
more and more people to kill and protect yourself from
being killed by. But, you know, if there was anyone
I wanted to do that with, it would be the Canadians.
But that could be entirely incorrect. That reputation could be
absolutely a fabrication and Canadians could actually be bloodthirsty killers.
But we don't really have that information here in this story.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We don't. What we do know is that the idea
for the invasion or the seeds were planted as far
back as 1865 when the Finians in the U.S. split
up into two factions. One was headed by William Roberts,
the other by a guy named John O. Mahoney. who
was a member, was one of the founding members of
(14:11):
the Brotherhood, right? And the Roberts wing is actually the
one that suggested doing this invasion of Canada. And here
are some of the supporting details that they put forth
as a justification for this plan. They pointed to the
fact that there were hundreds of thousands of these battle-hardened
veterans that could support this invasion. And if they did
(14:35):
it and timed it in the right way, it could
bring about a real revolution in Ireland if they controlled Canada.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
It would also force the British government to be engaged
in two different wars separated by an ocean, which logistically
is incredibly expensive. And eventually they realized that that rebellion
they were hoping for, that revolution they were hoping for
in Ireland was not actually going to take place or
(15:04):
gain the momentum they wanted it to gain. They kept
with the idea of the invasion, but the goal changed. Instead,
they said, let's make sure we can engineer a border
incident between the US and Britain that will force them
into another war. And, you know, it's no secret at
this point that the US and Britain are still very
(15:27):
sore at one another. The British Empire heavily favored the
Confederacy during the Civil War, which is a fact that
many people are unaware of. During the war, in fact,
the British government almost granted diplomatic recognition to the Confederacy.
And this kind of tense, uncool vibe between the U.S.
(15:51):
and the Brits was probably not going to lead to
another full-scale war. but it did mean that the U.S.
government was certainly not going to go out of its
way to assist British forces in Canada. As a matter
of fact, we have solid proof that President Andrew Johnson
was aware of the Finians' plan for this Irish invasion
(16:13):
of Canada, but he didn't really do anything to stop it.
He was kind of like Gene Wilder playing Willy Wonka
in the original and good adaptation of Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory, where he says, no, stop, help.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Please. Yeah, it's true. So let's go a little deeper
into what the U.S. 's role in this whole thing was. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Why were they OK with all of this?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So like you said before, I mean, Andrew Johnson was
clearly more or less OK with letting the Finian Brotherhood
kind of poke Britain in the eye. But he actually
had some more strategic kind of long term things to
gain here. U.S. was really deep in this idea of
manifest destiny, of expanding Europe. their territorial holdings to the West.
(16:59):
And the government actually participated in this planned rebellion. Johnson
met with some of the leaders of the Finians and
helped get them discounts on weapons that they sold to them.
And he gave them his backing with the understanding that
if the Irish did take over Canada, they would sort
(17:21):
of be in league with the United States. That would
be better than having a territory bordering our country that
was controlled by the British, who, while we were tacit
with at the time, were not, you know, fast friends.
There's a lot of, like, simmering resentments held over from, obviously,
the Revolutionary War.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Right. And even during the Civil War, at the time,
Johnson is pressing the British government to pay reparations for
different damages incurred during the Civil War for which he
feels they are responsible. And we've still, okay, back to
our two competing Finian factions. This is the Finian faction
(17:57):
fact check.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I got through that. All right.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well done, sir. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So these two different factions launched two different operations. In
April of 1866, the O'Mahony Wing tries to seize an
island near New Brunswick. But the U.S. Navy, oddly enough,
disperses them. They had gathered in Maine, but they were
disbanded under the eyes of watchful U.S.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Troops.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
No one in the federal government was super stoked about
reigning in these Finians because they thought that they might
lose the Irish vote, which was a huge voting block, right?
So as a result, the Finians were able to organize
a much larger campaign later. The other wing, the Roberts wing,
launched its attack on Canada under the command of a
(18:48):
Civil War veteran on June 1, 1866. General O'Neill led
a force of over 1,000 men into Canadian territory near
Fort Erie in Ontario. And initially, they had some pretty
good success. They won two battles, including the Battle of Ridgeway,
and they only had about 10 people die on their side,
(19:09):
same number of people dead. or around the same number
dead on the Canadian side. But what was the Battle
of Ridgeway? And why, it's funny because in our notes here,
we have it listed as the so-called Battle of Ridgeway.
Was it just too small to be a battle or
what was it?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
So this conflict had several names. There was the Battle
of Lime Ridge or Limestone Ridge and of course the
Battle of Ridgeway. And this began, this conflict on the
morning of June the 2nd, 1966, and it was near
a village called Ridgeway and also a town in Canada
called Fort Erie, which is now Ontario. And there were
(19:46):
800 Canadian soldiers and they faced off against around the
same number, a little less actually, Finians, around 800, between
750 and 800 Finians, who had crossed the Niagara River
from Buffalo, New York. And it's interesting because historically this
is a significant thing for Canada because it's the first
battle of the Industrial Age that was fought entirely by
(20:09):
by Canadians and led exclusively by Canadian troops because they
were typically part of a British offensive, right?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
It's a good point. This is also the last battle
fought in Ontario against a foreign invasion force. And in 1921,
it became a national historic site. So one thing that
I think reflects well on the character of the Finians
in this conflict is that the troops were respectful of
(20:39):
local civilians and Canadian prisoners of war. In fact, one
Canadian soldier, Lance Corporal William Ellis, later writing about his experience,
remarked that the Finians' treatment of myself and the other
prisoners was kind and considerate in the extreme. So they've
got that contagious Canadian vibe, right? It gets into everything.
(21:01):
O'Neill was aware that the Canadian forces were overall, were much,
much larger than the team he had put together. And eventually,
those forces would come to bear. So on the 3rd
of June, he said, okay, we're going to take the
army back into U.S. territory, and we're going to wait
for some friendly reinforcements. But at this point, the U.S. government,
(21:24):
because politics is nothing if not fickle, the U.S. government said,
all right, maybe this is getting out of control. Like,
we don't like the Brits either, but... Come on, guys.
So once they got back across the border, O'Neill's army
was met by American troops who said, no, no more
crossing the border. You can't make any more attacks. And
(21:48):
over the next few days, the American forces broke up
the Finian army. O'Neill was even arrested and temporarily incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, the U.S. Marshals actually swept through and did the
arresting and incarcerating in question there. There was a smaller
incursion into Canada, a smaller contingent of Finian troops. But
this was pretty much quashed as well. The second Finian
(22:17):
army was broken up by U.S. forces when they got
back to American soil. And by the 8th of June,
it was all over. That was it. That was it. Yeah.
Kind of ended with a whimpering. Yeah, so that's why
it's a so-called battle, right?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
It's more of a series of skirmishes. About 850 Finians
were captured by U.S.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Authorities.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
As you have mentioned, another 100 were caught by the
Canadian militia. There was another raid, no casualties. A lot
of the reason there was no casualties, because U.S. federal
authorities had taken the Finians' guns and ammunition. And the Finians,
eventually after these failed attempts, are more or less disbanded
(23:01):
because the entire invasion demonstrated the futility of their strategy.
It proved that Canadian forces would fight to preserve their land,
and more importantly, they could mobilize thousands of volunteers from
their population to fight for it. There wasn't much hope
that the Finians could get as many people as they
(23:21):
needed to first seize Canadian territory, much less hold it
against volunteer Canadian forces that far outnumbered them, And the
Finians learned that no matter what the U.S. government might
say or how it might feel about the British Empire,
they're not going to offer any real support. You know
what I mean? They were kind of doing a proxy
(23:44):
war thing.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Exactly. That's totally true. So what happened in 1870 was
that a convention took place within the Brotherhood. And that's
when they decided to launch another attack on Canada. Because
it worked so well the first time. Let's do this.
They were resolved. And so John O'Neill was to head
(24:06):
up the Finian forces. And we have John Boyle. John
Boyle O'Reilly, that is, who is a journalist who is
hanging out as well. O'Reilly is the reason that we
have a lot of the juicy details from these conflicts.
And this one was particularly disastrous for the concept of
(24:29):
Finianism in these fair United States, right?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
What's strange is that they did have an unintended benefit
for nationalism. It just wasn't Irish nationalism. Those raids in
1866 didn't do much for Irish nationalism, patriotism, but they
became a defining moment in Canadian history. In February of 1867,
(24:56):
various Canadian colonies were combined into the Dominion of Canada
while some factions of Finians continued fighting. I love the
alliteration here. They clearly, if you just look at your
closest available world map, did not manage to liberate Northern
Ireland yet. A ship full of Irish-American fighters landed in
(25:17):
Western Ireland in May of 1867 and In 1870, there
was another Finian raid. In October 1871, a few dozen
Finians marched in Manitoba or toward Manitoba, hoping to join
some rebels. They got arrested. They just couldn't get the
leverage they need. But you have to wonder, Noel, what
(25:39):
do you think those guys would think of Brexit if
they heard about it now? Because Ireland proper is still
going to be a member of the European Union.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
It's a good question. I mean, I think it seems
like I don't know. I mean, Brexit is more about British,
Britain for the British. And this one's sort of about Irish,
Ireland for the Irish, or like breaking away from Britain.
So I think they'd probably be into it, right?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering because the idea of Northern Ireland gaining
independence to retain EU status, you know, I just wonder,
these are new politics to us, but they are politics
with a long, long story. Well, Casey, I think you've
spent the most time out of the three of us
in the EU. Do you have any insight on what's
(26:26):
going to happen? Could Brexit in a way end up
reuniting Ireland?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Reuniting or reigniting the Troubles is kind of the fear
that the kind of the very delicate piece that's been
worked out there since the height of the Troubles sounds
like it could be in jeopardy again and that that
border with Northern Ireland could become contentious and It could
be more of like, I think, a patrolled border. There
could be difficulties with like imports and exports. So it's,
(26:54):
I don't know, it's a very like messy and delicate situation.
From what I understand, I'm far, far, far from an
expert in that region. But that's kind.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of what I've heard.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Casey on the case. And we want to hear your take, folks,
because one thing this show has taught us is that
history is chock full of strange events. attempts at revolution
that sort of devolve into a couple of dozen dudes
maybe with guns maybe not.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah i mean hopefully with guns it makes for a
more interesting story right what.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
What are your what are your weirdest invasion stories that
you've encountered locally or in your travels let us know
you can find us on instagram you can find us
on facebook you can find us on twitter we're ridiculous
historians on facebook where you can meet one of our
favorite parts of the show your fellow listeners If.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
You wish, you can find me on Instagram at how
now Noel Brown, where I just, you know, do various
and sundry things around the house and a little bit
of travel, a little bit of kicking it with the
kid and going to shows and whatnot. And I think
Ben is on there as well. I am.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The rumors are true. You can find me at Ben Bullen.
You'll see me getting kicked into and out of various
places on my quest for the perfect slice of pizza.
I'm kidding. When it comes to food, I am, I'm a,
I'm a garbage fire. I'm a dumpster. Just throw food
at me. I don't need a plate. I will just,
I'll catch it and eat it. But yeah, you can
(28:22):
see some various ill-informed misadventures there at Ben Bolin. We
want to give a big thanks to super producer Casey
LeBouche Pegram. We want to also thank Christopher Haciotis, Yves Jeffcoat.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Gabe Lugier, our research associate, and a new addition to
the show, research pal Ryan Barish. And of course, Alex Williams,
who composed our theme. We'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow ridiculous historians, have you heard of Canada? It's been
in the news a little bit lately. Yeah, practicing softball questions,
you guys. Yeah, man, yeah. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I've never met a Canadian that I didn't like.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I wish I could say the same, man, honestly. Fair, fair, fair.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
To be honest, though, I haven't met that many Canadians,
but they've all been very pleasant people. Yeah, yeah, I
agree with you.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We know that. Ireland as a culture has for a
long time been separated. There's Ireland, the nation, and then
there's Northern Ireland, which has been controlled by the United Kingdom.
A lot of people want a unified Ireland. We're being
very diplomatic in how we describe that. But in 2019,
(00:49):
we learned that once upon a time, people who wanted
to reunify Ireland thought the best way to do it
was to invade Canada.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Man, I think Donald Trump must have listened to this
episode of ours back when it came out in July
of 2019.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So who are these Finians? Folks, let's find out. Welcome
(01:42):
to the show, ridiculous historians, and hello to you and
whatever neck of the global woods you find yourself today.
I got to tell you, this episode and this topic
for today's episode is calling up some memories for me
of a very strange weekend. There was one time where
(02:02):
circumstances found me in Dublin for like 26 hours.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You do that from time to time, don't you, Ben?
Things happen, Noel.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Things happen. We were just before we went on the
air asking our super producer, Casey Pegram, who is probably
the most well-traveled of the three of us, if he
had ever been to Ireland. And Casey said, You said no, right?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't know if I'm the most traveled in terms
of countries visited or if I'm just the most frequently
traveled because I keep going to Paris every year. Because
I actually, I kind of made my tour of Europe
and then I just stayed in Paris after that. And
every time I get ready to go, I'm like, I
should see some more places. And then I'm just like, no,
I'm not. I'm just going to stay here.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What was amazing about Ireland, the very small amount of
time I spent there, was everybody had these amazing musical accents.
And this might not seem like a big deal to
a lot of us listening in Europe or maybe Australia
or other places, but here in the US, North Americans,
and probably this includes Canadians as well, love the Irish accent.
(03:10):
I heard two guys getting into a street fight at
like two in the morning, and I thought they were
just being very kind to each other. One of them
was like, I'll be seeing you then. And the other
one said, oh, no, I'll be seeing you. Oh, you'll
be seeing me, will you? Oh, no, I'll be seeing you.
And he's like, yeah. And this is the line the
guy used. He said, I'll see you very well.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And I turned around. Oh, you'll see me very well.
I see you even better.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I turned around and the police force, LaGuardia, They're called
they were holding these guys back and one of them
had a bottle. He was like brandishing at the other one.
It sounded like this very polite, maybe slightly drunken conversation
between friends. Right. Who are just trying to like one
up their bromance. But no, those guys were going to
(03:57):
beat the tar out of each other.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
We've we've we've probably sounded that way to passers by before.
Slightly in our cups on the porch of the old local.
This is the bar that we frequent. Yes, our local
bar is called The Local. It's very true. Great chicken wings.
Great chicken wings, really easy to remember. Ben, I want
to take an opportunity here at the top of the
show real quick. Yeah. You and I had a very
interesting text exchange the other night where you mentioned the
(04:22):
fact that you had– an odd amount of pictures of
a mutual friend of ours on your phone, and you
asked me if I wanted to subscribe to a service
called NickPix.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
NickPix.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
NickPix. And you just sent me this email as though
it were from a bot saying, you have subscribed to NickPix.
Press F in the chat. Rename for good luck. Unsubscribe
by being lame. And then I hit F. And then
Ben proceeded to send me like a dozen screenshots of
the iTunes reviews for this show. And my response was,
(04:50):
what the hell? That was brutal. I avoid these reviews
like the plague. Explain yourself, sir.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh, also, don't forget that you did get, along with that,
some top-notch Nick picks, which a friend of ours, artist
Nick Benson.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Nick Benson, Admiral Turbo, he goes by. But I bring
it up because I wanted to read– most of these
were quite good. And Ben has a good point that
a lot of our iTunes reviews or Apple podcasts are
either one star or five stars.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Depending on where you fall on the spectrum. But this
is one I quite enjoyed. The subject is such a
waste of resources. And here's the review. So one star.
The topics and headlines of the new podcast episodes are great,
but when you listen, you realize they aren't there to
cover it, but to go off on nerd tangents and
dialogue that is completely irrelevant. No offense, but I don't
(05:38):
want to listen to your side convos and inside jokes.
Stay on topic and present the story. One of the
guys is the worst and always takes it off topic.
All caps. No one cares. Stick to the content. He
didn't identify who which one of us was the worst.
But I would conjecture that if you're listening to the
show now and you're still listening, then you're one of
(05:58):
those people who likes the side convos in the nerd
chat at the top of the show.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I remember that one. And I don't know who that is.
I feel like they're naming all three of us. There
was one there was one review. I can't remember if
I sent this to you.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
That made me laugh.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And it made me think of you, Casey, because a
lot of it was telling us not to. They were like,
we don't understand. I don't understand who this Casey Pegram is.
Why are these guys fawning? That's the word they used, fawning.
Great word, F-A-W-N. Why are they fawning over this person
we don't know? And I thought, wow, you have not
listened to the show ever because super producer Casey Pegram
(06:35):
has been there since day one.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I did see that review and it cracked me up.
Just somebody coming into the middle and being like, who
is this guy? Why do they keep mentioning this guy?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, I'll tell you, we fawn for good reason. I mean,
it's a fawn that comes honestly because Casey Pegram is
one of both of our favorite people. And if you
can't get on board with that, listener, then maybe you
need to find yourself a different podcast.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
We literally have a t-shirt with Casey's face on it.
Thanks again for letting us pull that one off, Casey.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'm wearing it right now.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
And Noel is wearing one of them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
So.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Folks, I'm as baffled by all of this as you are.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, they don't know the backstory of how I spent
the better part of, what, seven months trying to talk
you into letting me get a shirt with your face
on it. And you politely told me it was weird.
But now we're doing it for a show. Yeah, that's
how it goes.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That was a severely.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I'll tolerate you, Ben, response from our good friend Casey.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I'm fine with that. I think Casey held it together delightfully.
Speaking of holding it together delightfully, we should probably do
an actual show.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, right. So I'm not mentioning the beautiful lilt of the...
How do we get to the reviews? I'm not mentioning
the beautiful lilt of the Irish accent for nothing. Today's
show does concern the Irish, but not necessarily Ireland. We
were talking about a time when the Irish invaded our
(08:03):
fair country to the north of the U.S., Canada.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Didn't we do another Canada invasion story pretty recently? We did.
It was Fort Blunder, which was built on the wrong
side of the border. That's right, because we were concerned
about an invasion from Canada. This episode concerns an invasion from...
of Canada by the Finians, who were members of a
19th century movement that was all about Irish independence from Britain.
(08:32):
They were a secret organization. They were outlawed in the
British Empire. And they were also known in Britain as
the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Is this a precursor to the IRA, Ben?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I believe, I believe that is correct, at least in
terms of concepts, right? So the IRA would be thematically
descended or ideologically descended, if not directly descended. So tell
us a little bit about those roots then, Ben. Of
the Finians, sure. The Finian Brotherhood was founded in the
United States in 1858, and it was a precursor to
(09:13):
things like the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The members were known
as Finians, and Mahoney, John Mahoney, that is, one of
the founders, was a Gaelic scholar who named his organization
after the Fianna legendary band of Irish warriors. So they
traced their origins back to the 1790s when there was
(09:37):
a rebellion seeking to end British rule in Ireland, first
for self-government and then later to establish an Irish republic.
When John O'Mahony had founded this, he did it after
he had traveled to the continent to avoid arrest in Ireland.
And then he had lived in France for a little bit,
still planning to overthrow British rule in Ireland. And in 1856,
(10:01):
he came to the United States to found the Finian Brotherhood.
And in some ways, the Finian Brotherhood was aiming to
become a replacement Irish government. They had adopted a constitution
that rules for general governance, and so on. And this was,
(10:23):
it's important to note, this was an American branch of
this larger Finian movement. And the main thing that they
did originally was to raise funds and obtain weapons to
send to Ireland. The mission of the Finians was always
ultimately to overthrow and drive out the British forces.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So here's the thing, too. Most of the Finians had
been made super battle-weary and hardened, rugged even, by the
American Civil War where they had fought. They were experienced.
They had seen plenty of brutal and bloody battle, and
they were very, very skilled. Right.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Out of all these immigrants who had fought in the
Civil War, 10,000 joined the Finians after the war ended
in 1865.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
That's the U.S. Civil War.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Under the leadership of a brigadier general, Thomas William Sweeney.
They also elected that government in exile, what we're talking about,
New York, and they changed their strategy. They said, instead
of just moving money and soldiers and weapons to Ireland,
let's do something else. Let's take the fight for Irish
(11:38):
freedom to British Canada. Here's how it came about. In 1865,
an American ship called Aaron's Hope, E-R-I-N-S, was intercepted by
the British Navy on the way to Ireland. The ship
was loaded with soldiers and ammunition bound for this planned
(12:03):
Finian revolt. The mission failed, and the Finian branch in
America held an emergency convention in Philadelphia. a guy named
William Randall Roberts, who was a radical firebrand, was elected
president of the Finians, and he said, let's invade the
British North American colonies of Canada. And they thought this
(12:26):
was maybe not a good idea. They thought it was
something they could pull off. They thought it was possible
and plausible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Because even then, I mean, the Canadians probably had the
same reputation they have now as being pretty chill, agreeable folks, right?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It's interesting because— The Finians already had some support politically
in the U.S., and the government didn't really mess with
their meetings or gatherings and stuff. And Canada's borders were
virtually unsecured. The only guards they had were citizen volunteers.
So all these veterans who have military experience and are
(13:02):
armed because they were able to get this. I didn't
know this. After the Civil War, they were able to
purchase their rifles and ammo at a super deep discount.
They're like, hey, congratulations on surviving. This usually costs, you know, $ 20,
but we'll give it to you for two.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Just because of like as a reward almost for their service?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You are alive. Here's a deep discount for you. That's,
you know, better than nothing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I know the next thing you want is another gun.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Another gun and more stuff to do. That's right. And
more and more people to kill and protect yourself from
being killed by. But, you know, if there was anyone
I wanted to do that with, it would be the Canadians.
But that could be entirely incorrect. That reputation could be
absolutely a fabrication and Canadians could actually be bloodthirsty killers.
But we don't really have that information here in this story.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We don't. What we do know is that the idea
for the invasion or the seeds were planted as far
back as 1865 when the Finians in the U.S. split
up into two factions. One was headed by William Roberts,
the other by a guy named John O. Mahoney. who
was a member, was one of the founding members of
(14:11):
the Brotherhood, right? And the Roberts wing is actually the
one that suggested doing this invasion of Canada. And here
are some of the supporting details that they put forth
as a justification for this plan. They pointed to the
fact that there were hundreds of thousands of these battle-hardened
veterans that could support this invasion. And if they did
(14:35):
it and timed it in the right way, it could
bring about a real revolution in Ireland if they controlled Canada.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
It would also force the British government to be engaged
in two different wars separated by an ocean, which logistically
is incredibly expensive. And eventually they realized that that rebellion
they were hoping for, that revolution they were hoping for
in Ireland was not actually going to take place or
(15:04):
gain the momentum they wanted it to gain. They kept
with the idea of the invasion, but the goal changed. Instead,
they said, let's make sure we can engineer a border
incident between the US and Britain that will force them
into another war. And, you know, it's no secret at
this point that the US and Britain are still very
(15:27):
sore at one another. The British Empire heavily favored the
Confederacy during the Civil War, which is a fact that
many people are unaware of. During the war, in fact,
the British government almost granted diplomatic recognition to the Confederacy.
And this kind of tense, uncool vibe between the U.S.
(15:51):
and the Brits was probably not going to lead to
another full-scale war. but it did mean that the U.S.
government was certainly not going to go out of its
way to assist British forces in Canada. As a matter
of fact, we have solid proof that President Andrew Johnson
was aware of the Finians' plan for this Irish invasion
(16:13):
of Canada, but he didn't really do anything to stop it.
He was kind of like Gene Wilder playing Willy Wonka
in the original and good adaptation of Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory, where he says, no, stop, help.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Please. Yeah, it's true. So let's go a little deeper
into what the U.S. 's role in this whole thing was. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Why were they OK with all of this?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So like you said before, I mean, Andrew Johnson was
clearly more or less OK with letting the Finian Brotherhood
kind of poke Britain in the eye. But he actually
had some more strategic kind of long term things to
gain here. U.S. was really deep in this idea of
manifest destiny, of expanding Europe. their territorial holdings to the West.
(16:59):
And the government actually participated in this planned rebellion. Johnson
met with some of the leaders of the Finians and
helped get them discounts on weapons that they sold to them.
And he gave them his backing with the understanding that
if the Irish did take over Canada, they would sort
(17:21):
of be in league with the United States. That would
be better than having a territory bordering our country that
was controlled by the British, who, while we were tacit
with at the time, were not, you know, fast friends.
There's a lot of, like, simmering resentments held over from, obviously,
the Revolutionary War.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Right. And even during the Civil War, at the time,
Johnson is pressing the British government to pay reparations for
different damages incurred during the Civil War for which he
feels they are responsible. And we've still, okay, back to
our two competing Finian factions. This is the Finian faction
(17:57):
fact check.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I got through that. All right.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well done, sir. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So these two different factions launched two different operations. In
April of 1866, the O'Mahony Wing tries to seize an
island near New Brunswick. But the U.S. Navy, oddly enough,
disperses them. They had gathered in Maine, but they were
disbanded under the eyes of watchful U.S.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Troops.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
No one in the federal government was super stoked about
reigning in these Finians because they thought that they might
lose the Irish vote, which was a huge voting block, right?
So as a result, the Finians were able to organize
a much larger campaign later. The other wing, the Roberts wing,
launched its attack on Canada under the command of a
(18:48):
Civil War veteran on June 1, 1866. General O'Neill led
a force of over 1,000 men into Canadian territory near
Fort Erie in Ontario. And initially, they had some pretty
good success. They won two battles, including the Battle of Ridgeway,
and they only had about 10 people die on their side,
(19:09):
same number of people dead. or around the same number
dead on the Canadian side. But what was the Battle
of Ridgeway? And why, it's funny because in our notes here,
we have it listed as the so-called Battle of Ridgeway.
Was it just too small to be a battle or
what was it?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
So this conflict had several names. There was the Battle
of Lime Ridge or Limestone Ridge and of course the
Battle of Ridgeway. And this began, this conflict on the
morning of June the 2nd, 1966, and it was near
a village called Ridgeway and also a town in Canada
called Fort Erie, which is now Ontario. And there were
(19:46):
800 Canadian soldiers and they faced off against around the
same number, a little less actually, Finians, around 800, between
750 and 800 Finians, who had crossed the Niagara River
from Buffalo, New York. And it's interesting because historically this
is a significant thing for Canada because it's the first
battle of the Industrial Age that was fought entirely by
(20:09):
by Canadians and led exclusively by Canadian troops because they
were typically part of a British offensive, right?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
It's a good point. This is also the last battle
fought in Ontario against a foreign invasion force. And in 1921,
it became a national historic site. So one thing that
I think reflects well on the character of the Finians
in this conflict is that the troops were respectful of
(20:39):
local civilians and Canadian prisoners of war. In fact, one
Canadian soldier, Lance Corporal William Ellis, later writing about his experience,
remarked that the Finians' treatment of myself and the other
prisoners was kind and considerate in the extreme. So they've
got that contagious Canadian vibe, right? It gets into everything.
(21:01):
O'Neill was aware that the Canadian forces were overall, were much,
much larger than the team he had put together. And eventually,
those forces would come to bear. So on the 3rd
of June, he said, okay, we're going to take the
army back into U.S. territory, and we're going to wait
for some friendly reinforcements. But at this point, the U.S. government,
(21:24):
because politics is nothing if not fickle, the U.S. government said,
all right, maybe this is getting out of control. Like,
we don't like the Brits either, but... Come on, guys.
So once they got back across the border, O'Neill's army
was met by American troops who said, no, no more
crossing the border. You can't make any more attacks. And
(21:48):
over the next few days, the American forces broke up
the Finian army. O'Neill was even arrested and temporarily incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, the U.S. Marshals actually swept through and did the
arresting and incarcerating in question there. There was a smaller
incursion into Canada, a smaller contingent of Finian troops. But
this was pretty much quashed as well. The second Finian
(22:17):
army was broken up by U.S. forces when they got
back to American soil. And by the 8th of June,
it was all over. That was it. That was it. Yeah.
Kind of ended with a whimpering. Yeah, so that's why
it's a so-called battle, right?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
It's more of a series of skirmishes. About 850 Finians
were captured by U.S.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Authorities.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
As you have mentioned, another 100 were caught by the
Canadian militia. There was another raid, no casualties. A lot
of the reason there was no casualties, because U.S. federal
authorities had taken the Finians' guns and ammunition. And the Finians,
eventually after these failed attempts, are more or less disbanded
(23:01):
because the entire invasion demonstrated the futility of their strategy.
It proved that Canadian forces would fight to preserve their land,
and more importantly, they could mobilize thousands of volunteers from
their population to fight for it. There wasn't much hope
that the Finians could get as many people as they
(23:21):
needed to first seize Canadian territory, much less hold it
against volunteer Canadian forces that far outnumbered them, And the
Finians learned that no matter what the U.S. government might
say or how it might feel about the British Empire,
they're not going to offer any real support. You know
what I mean? They were kind of doing a proxy
(23:44):
war thing.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Exactly. That's totally true. So what happened in 1870 was
that a convention took place within the Brotherhood. And that's
when they decided to launch another attack on Canada. Because
it worked so well the first time. Let's do this.
They were resolved. And so John O'Neill was to head
(24:06):
up the Finian forces. And we have John Boyle. John
Boyle O'Reilly, that is, who is a journalist who is
hanging out as well. O'Reilly is the reason that we
have a lot of the juicy details from these conflicts.
And this one was particularly disastrous for the concept of
(24:29):
Finianism in these fair United States, right?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
What's strange is that they did have an unintended benefit
for nationalism. It just wasn't Irish nationalism. Those raids in
1866 didn't do much for Irish nationalism, patriotism, but they
became a defining moment in Canadian history. In February of 1867,
(24:56):
various Canadian colonies were combined into the Dominion of Canada
while some factions of Finians continued fighting. I love the
alliteration here. They clearly, if you just look at your
closest available world map, did not manage to liberate Northern
Ireland yet. A ship full of Irish-American fighters landed in
(25:17):
Western Ireland in May of 1867 and In 1870, there
was another Finian raid. In October 1871, a few dozen
Finians marched in Manitoba or toward Manitoba, hoping to join
some rebels. They got arrested. They just couldn't get the
leverage they need. But you have to wonder, Noel, what
(25:39):
do you think those guys would think of Brexit if
they heard about it now? Because Ireland proper is still
going to be a member of the European Union.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
It's a good question. I mean, I think it seems
like I don't know. I mean, Brexit is more about British,
Britain for the British. And this one's sort of about Irish,
Ireland for the Irish, or like breaking away from Britain.
So I think they'd probably be into it, right?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, I'm wondering because the idea of Northern Ireland gaining
independence to retain EU status, you know, I just wonder,
these are new politics to us, but they are politics
with a long, long story. Well, Casey, I think you've
spent the most time out of the three of us
in the EU. Do you have any insight on what's
(26:26):
going to happen? Could Brexit in a way end up
reuniting Ireland?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Reuniting or reigniting the Troubles is kind of the fear
that the kind of the very delicate piece that's been
worked out there since the height of the Troubles sounds
like it could be in jeopardy again and that that
border with Northern Ireland could become contentious and It could
be more of like, I think, a patrolled border. There
could be difficulties with like imports and exports. So it's,
(26:54):
I don't know, it's a very like messy and delicate situation.
From what I understand, I'm far, far, far from an
expert in that region. But that's kind.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of what I've heard.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Casey on the case. And we want to hear your take, folks,
because one thing this show has taught us is that
history is chock full of strange events. attempts at revolution
that sort of devolve into a couple of dozen dudes
maybe with guns maybe not.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah i mean hopefully with guns it makes for a
more interesting story right what.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
What are your what are your weirdest invasion stories that
you've encountered locally or in your travels let us know
you can find us on instagram you can find us
on facebook you can find us on twitter we're ridiculous
historians on facebook where you can meet one of our
favorite parts of the show your fellow listeners If.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
You wish, you can find me on Instagram at how
now Noel Brown, where I just, you know, do various
and sundry things around the house and a little bit
of travel, a little bit of kicking it with the
kid and going to shows and whatnot. And I think
Ben is on there as well. I am.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The rumors are true. You can find me at Ben Bullen.
You'll see me getting kicked into and out of various
places on my quest for the perfect slice of pizza.
I'm kidding. When it comes to food, I am, I'm a,
I'm a garbage fire. I'm a dumpster. Just throw food
at me. I don't need a plate. I will just,
I'll catch it and eat it. But yeah, you can
(28:22):
see some various ill-informed misadventures there at Ben Bolin. We
want to give a big thanks to super producer Casey
LeBouche Pegram. We want to also thank Christopher Haciotis, Yves Jeffcoat.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Gabe Lugier, our research associate, and a new addition to
the show, research pal Ryan Barish. And of course, Alex Williams,
who composed our theme. We'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.