December 3, 2024 • 41 mins
It's easy to look at history and think one idea or another is ridiculous -- but we also have to remember modern civilization has its own vast collection of cartoonish concepts. You know, the sort of stuff we all agreed was "normal" until we really started to think about it. In today's episode, the guys explore a fashion staple that's baffled Ben for more than a decade: Why on Earth do we have neckties? Where did they come from, and why are they considered a stamp of professionalism in the modern day? Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. We are so glad you're here. We're
also going to welcome our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I guess welcome back. We love you so much. He
has a big podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You guys know how much I love neckties.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You guys know I have so much. That's the talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, it's like curling your necktie. Oh god, now we have.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
To do you have a tie rack that would do
you have enough ties that would necessitate an entire rack?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
An entire rack?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh my goodness. Well that's uh, that's mister Noel.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Brown, because I have one time.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
You know what, man, every time I have to put
it on, I have to look up a YouTube video
on how to tie it.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm not even joking. Only do a.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Half windsor That's the only one I've learned how to
do off a memory.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You guys don't know the different knots, full windsor or bust.
For me, guys, I'm Ben Bullen. We are We are
following up on a conversation we had earlier, longtime ridiculous historians.
We're you know, we're no better than anyone else. We're
not some sort of uh moral nor intellectual signposts for
(01:43):
the world but for yourself. But we do know, I
would say, we do have a pretty good spidery sense
for things that seem normal yet are ridiculous, And that
is why we're doing this episode about neckties.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Well, when you give it a little extra thought, it
does start to resemble some weird future fashion thing that
to the time traveler, the unsuspecting time traveler, just makes
no sense.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like I'm trying to think of an example Inmoli Man,
you don't know how to use the three seashells.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
That is ben you mind reader, that is exactly that specifically,
and the flavor of that. In science fiction, there's always like,
you know, some weird like cylindrical hat or something like that.
It's shaped like a you know, polygon or something like.
That's not what cylindrical means, but you know what I'm
saying it does. It's not functional. It's just a little
bit of an odd choice that clearly came from somewhere, but.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Where but where's Yeah, there's it's almost functioning like flare.
Generally speaking, the necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental
rather than functional. Think about it. A tie goes around
your neck, but it's not going to keep you warm
the way a scarf would. It's not a good it's
(02:58):
not a great napkin. It's not a great mop nor
great towel. You could do a tourniquet if you had to,
You really could.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
You could put it around your head if you wanted
to go full office Rambo mode. If I'm not mistaken,
I believe Young Gizmo did that in Gremlins too, the
new batch.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
He wore a neck tie at his head and.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Was shooting those pesky gremlins with a paper clip bow
and arrow with flaming match sticks.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know what to neat about a tie, though?
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Is a tie not only is it an accoutrement or
a decorative, ornamental piece of kit itself. You can even
decorate the decorative thing with like tie pins.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Yes, yes, anyone's wondering clipping ties? Fifteen ties, fifteen ties.
We were waiting for the number. I've already given my number,
and it's embarrassing. So you guys win by default.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Oh boy, I've got a I'm not going to do
show until here, But I have inherited several very old ties.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Ties.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's okay where them at fancy occasions, because that's what
a tie is supposed to tell you in modern day civilization.
If you see someone walking around they got a tie on,
it's as though there's it's like having.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
A fancy watch.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It's like they're saying, look at me, world, I'm doing
important stuff today.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
It's like, look at me, world, I have enough money
that I can invest in this stupid thing around my neck.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know, I love the idea of a black tie affair. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
It really is the mark of the fanciest of engagements
or dinners or parties.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, it reminds me to all of the one time
I got punked so hard by our buddy Miles Gray
over at Daily Zeitgeist because I said I didn't understand
fancy wristwatches. I said, it's either money laundering after a
certain threshold, or it's just a status symbol. In a
(04:53):
world where everyone has smartphones, your wristwatch just says look
at me, I could tell time twice.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I will say, as I've gotten a little older and
I've started to maybe get a little more interested in
some of the finer things in life, whether I own
them or not, I do appreciate the engineering that goes
into a really really high end wristwatch. And similarly with
like a nice, really nice necktie. You know, it is
not engineering exactly, but the fabric, the weave, the knits,
(05:22):
you know, the pattern, the crazy pattern like it damn flashes.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, yeah, this is crazy too, So let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a
flex is surprisingly old. If you go back to ancient
civilizations far before Seville Row or Savile Row, you can
you can see that China, Roam, the Egyptians. These people
(05:57):
were rock and stuff around their neck and it was
not functional. It was a status symbol.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
It also wasn't like a typical blinged out neck piece,
you know, a necklace.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That is a different class of accoutrement.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
We are specifically talking about carefully tied pieces of cloth
wrapped around one's neck. Since the item is only shown
in images of Chinese soldiers terra cotta sculptures rather from
the second century BCE, it did appear to be either
a sign of rank perhaps or some sort of like
like you'd see a general wearing those those metals on
(06:33):
their chest or whatever, or the epaulets, is that what
they're called, the things.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
On the shoulder ail eplets.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Mm hmm, so yeah, it would seem to be an
indication of one's status within a military organization.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, we see this again as well. In ancient Rome,
a world away, they had a strip of linen that
they called a sudarium and you worred around the neck
or sometimes in the early days, you tied it around
the wrist, as was the fashion at the time, and
it was dude's rocking this. It meant the same thing,
(07:08):
some sort of exemplary performance. In ancient Egypt, they would
take a similar kind of cloth, they would adorn it
with precious stones, and pharaohs would wear it.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Okay, Archaeologists have in fact found what they believed to
be some sort of I guess, protective or magical talismen
referred to as the knot of isis wrapped around the
necks of mummies, meant to be some sort of protection
in the afterlife. It is called this because it resembles
a knot that would have been used to secure garments
(07:41):
worn by Egyptian gods, and we're talking about knots.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It's really hard not to us keep it. We're keeping it.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It was accidentally on purpose, you know, not to think
about the way neckties are tied in various fashions.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And as our pals Ven Rafael Schneider points out writing
for Gentlemen's Gazette, certain members of tribes over in Oceania
also wore neck adornments. It's it's impossible to establish the
specific period of time when the first person began to
wrap knotted fabric around their necks, but it's pretty evident
(08:22):
that neckware of some sort has a tradition, a global tradition.
It's not just in the Americas, it's not just in
Western Europe. Across the world, various cultures, neck adornment of
some sort was seen as a mark of distinction. To
your point, now that maybe distinction of military office or
(08:42):
simply royalty. It is for the fancy people.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, a sign of opulence, you know, again, a bit
of a flex, like a fancy wristwatch.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
There it is.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And we know, we were looking into this together. We
know the ancestor of what we call the modern necktie,
of which Max has how many Max seventeen seventeen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I think that's right. I remember these things.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It's important data, right, Like when we go to a
friend's nice house and we immediately look up Zillow.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
God, people love it. When you do that, people love it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So the ancestor of the modern tie goes back probably
to the sixteen hundreds. It's a story that is ridiculously
rife with mercenaries, war, and you'll love this our returning characters,
Noel Brown, it's the Macaroni's.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right, we called them that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But wasn't that referring to like the high fashion of
the Italians?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Oh, it was referring to doodle dandy song.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yes, what would be called Dandy's If you if you
look back to the story of why people wear ties now,
then you're really looking at Croatian mercenaries in France under
the Sun King.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
And of course Louis the fourteenth, they employed Croatian mercenaries
during various battles.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
As folks of their statue are wont to do.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
These mercenaries wore decorative scarves or knotted neckerchiefs as part
of their military kit their uniforms. The demarcation of officers
and rank was determined by the quality of the fabric.
The finer the fabric, the higher the rank. The coarser
the fabric, the lower the rank.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so you're in the trenches, you might have burlap
on your neck, right, maybe died somehow, But if you were,
if your officer class, then you have better fabric and
probably better patterns approaching damn flash. The front line soldier neckerchiefs.
And I love the word neckerchiefs too, almost as much
(10:52):
as I like cravat, which we're about to get to. Yes, yes, yes,
with the croats, with the Croatians. These neckerchiefs are knotted
around the soldier's necks and they have a function. They're
meant to hold up capes the ends of the cloth.
This basically this cape fastener. They're arranged in a bow.
(11:16):
If you're a fancy boy, they get finished with a
tuft or a tassel.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
If you're a regular dude, you just tie it off
and hope your cape does like, does its job and
stays on.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Ben, I propose we bring back capes just in regular
walking around type of situations.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, I was talking a couple.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Of the moves you can do the way you can
kind of whip it in front of your face in
a show of a mystique.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, you can do a Dracula, you can do the shadow.
You can also do a beautiful entrance and exit. Talking
with our pal Hally Fry a few years ago, I
kind of asked her about that because she also did
a show for a while called Dressed, which is all
about the history of fashion.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Well, and she's also she literally makes all of our
own clothes, that is true, and they're great, mainly Star
Wars themes or Haunted Mansion themes.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So a nice inspirational thing. This tells us just how
great our good friend Holly is. A nice inspirational anecdote
about her. She hit me back and she said, bin,
just be the change. Just start wearing a cape. And
I said, I'm too short, and she said that's what's
stopping you, your ideas and your preconception. So Holly also
(12:31):
obviously rocks capes. Unanimously agree.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I have a bit of a gray stripe in my
hair that I think is kind of cool, and a
lot of barbers seem to think it's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Holly thought it was really cool and thought.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I shouldn't stop there, and she brought me some silver
hair dye to the office so that I could like
lean into it even further. I'm like, but Holly, it's
already silver. She's like, no, no, you can plus that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Make it gray.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Streak up, you bad boy. I can hear it in
her voice, make it pop. So these scarves were in
addition to being cape fasteners, all right, that's the spoiler,
that's the origin story. In addition to that function, they
were known as kind of branding or uniform colorful patterns
(13:16):
and designs. Again, not as intricate as obviously the designs
that Dan flashes over at the Shops by the Creek,
but still flashy.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Indeed, these colorful scarves did, in fact at this point
have somewhat of a function, but because you know, they
were meant to secure another garment, but the king was
more impressed with the fashion sense that they kind of represented,
and Louis the thirteenth decided he was going to co
opt this fashion, these neckerchiefs, and require them to be
(13:50):
worn at royal events. This is almost like the very
first introduction of the black tie affairs.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yes, yes, well done.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
This is the This is crazy because you know, a
lot of fashion trends come top down, some come bottom up,
but a lot come top down. And the people of France,
starting with the richie Riches, first called this successory a
crow at croat after the Croatian mercenaries known to wear them.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Would a crow at be a single Croatian? Yes, but
specially different, Yes, that's right. So it is a fun
example that we see in this historic game of telephone
that we're always looking at, where a mispronunciation or just
something being a little too hard for the average folks
to say results in a word becoming a different word
just for convenience sake, and then that word is the
(14:43):
one that kind of just takes off.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So the the French public is calling this the crow at,
and then it becomes, to your point, it becomes corrupted
to la cravat or cravat or cravat in English exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
And over the next couple of years, this fashion trend
absolutely dominated across France and then eventually spread to the
rest of Europe. There was a bit of a function
still at this time. It was in fact a little
more comfortable than what we know historically as the heavily
starched linen ruffs that you know we're talking about, oh
(15:20):
you know, yeah, the big round thing that goes all
the way around the neck and you'll often see in
fancy portraits of royalty. It is absolutely absurd looking. But
that's another example of a thing out of context. It
just looks idiotic and uncomfortable. But for whatever reason, it
was considered super cool and the height of trendiness.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, look at me. I can hire someone to fold
by collars for me. Look at all the folds. That
was their first day of flashes. But the so the
cravat is cool because it's still showing off your neck
flex but it's way looser, it's way less rep than
these linen ruffs. And the cravats become more popular with
(16:05):
the wealthy. They also become more and more intricate. They're
increasingly elaborate. They're incorporating lace to their cravats, sophisticated knots,
all all this stuff. Like if you looked at the
fanciest ties in this period of time, you would think
who else would wear this other than mister Worldwide, by
(16:28):
which we mean Pitbull of course.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And if you can picture it too, they did have
a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I think I was maybe a sort of misspoke when
I described the rough There certainly were different types of ruffs.
The ones that I'm picturing are the ones that would
go around in like a circle, like encircling your neck
like a frickin planet. But then the other kinds of
roughs were much more the very fancy linen collars that
would get stuffed into your shirt. The cravat was just
a little bit more of a simplified version of that.
(16:54):
But early cravats were intended to kind of be stuffed
into the front.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Of the shirt.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Which I don't know this for sure, Ben, but I
imagine is where the expression stuff shirt comes from, when
you're referring to.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
A fancy boy who's like a little bit up his
own butt.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Interesting. I haven't looked into that etymology. Please find us
on Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. We'd love to hear about this.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
This has been Nola's wildly speculative etymology corner.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
We do know a couple of things.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We do know that the cravat was not just a
craze in France via Croatia. We know the cravat spread
to other parts of Europe. When Charles the Second over
in England, he's known for a few things. When he
encountered the cravat and won the throne, he was all
(17:52):
about this. So again, the king is always the taste maker, right,
That's why Cathilian Spanish still has a manufactured lisp.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Right Bathdona.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So over the course of the next century, the cravat
moves with the tantrums of empire.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
So that's great empire. I mean, it's very clear everyone
totally understands what this means. This is about the monarch
kicking and screaming and pounding their tiny fists and feet
on the ground because they have to have what they
want and if you don't give it to them, then
you will be beheaded.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And there we go.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's how the cravat catches on in Germany, and then
of course our friends across the Atlantic, the English colonies,
they start rocking this flex as well. At this point
there are numerous variations on the idea of the cravat,
but still they don't look like the relatively slim modern
(18:51):
ties we see today. As a matter of fact, as
we know here Nol people didn't even call them ties
for a while.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Well, it's sort of like the way you might call
a particular style of hat, the stetson, you know, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They were. It's almost a kind of form of branding.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So you had a variation of a tie that Louis
the fourteenth was quite fond of called steinkirk.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's the steinkirk.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
It is, Yeah, sporting a single knot and a much
narrower shape, beginning to resemble what we know today is
the modern necktie.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
This is where we see the setup for the stars
of the song Yankee Doodle Dandy stuck a feather in
his cap and called it macaroni.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
That is referring to the folks we mentioned before, the
sort of metro sexuals of their time, the taste makers,
these young men who were fashion aficionados. I guess we
would call them clothe horses, right. They started in the
(19:54):
late seventeen hundreds tying their neck wear in increasingly difficult
and intricate knots and styles which were sort of like
a code, so you could see someone and know their identifications,
et cetera. Just like how honestly, like how punk dudes
(20:14):
have different patches on their jackets.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Of course, yeah, people in you know, motorcycle gangs, yes, as.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well as well everybody in a motorcycle gang. Thanks for
tuning into the show.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Can we add too that the whole term of macaroni
it was it wasn't just referring to Italians. I mean,
I guess you know that we do also often think
of Italian culture as being very high fashion as well.
But it was a little bit more of a catch
all term for But it was kind of a pejorative,
right Like, it wasn't a compliment. It was referring to
people that dressed so fashionably, you know, in the styles
(20:50):
of the time, that they kind of looked ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, that was the idea.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The idea was, Yeah, calling someone a macaroni was not
a comp It was saying, look at this fet fancy boy. Basically,
there maybe was even a little bit of veiled homophobia
in there. There was an implication for sure. And we
see still the cravat or the idea of decorative neckware, nakerchiefs.
(21:20):
He keeps getting adopted by powerful people. In the early
eighteen hundreds, this guy named Napoleon, who is most famous
for a cameo appearance in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
He did some other stuff and he was he you know,
he got punked by a gang of rabbits one time.
He also, during the Battle of Waterloo, rocked a cravat,
(21:43):
And you had this great, great point, Noel, about the
origin of a black tie event. It all goes back
to a young dandy named Bo Brummel.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Bo Brummel helped to really solidify the way we think
of tying a tie or a cravat. He was a
young hip fashion icon and was a big fan of
wearing a very complicatedly tied cravat. But when he did it,
(22:19):
it was almost like a magic trick.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
He had this style and flare with which he was
able to tie his tie that really turned heads.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, and his style was expensive in terms of time,
just like when you see someone on Instagram or TikTok
saying here's my guide to how you do this.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Thing, however, or like a cooking show where it's like
there's always like the Great mitchellin websketch that's making fun
of Gordon Ramsey, where he's like, you didn't even show
the step where you did the potato thing.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
As far as I'm concerned, it might as well be magic.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Locally, gradings simply cooked exactly Shakespeare's just would in order.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's a great I'm not just good at this as
you are. Will you stay? Oh gosh, what agreed? Will
you stay forever? Yeah? I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Please watch this, guys, just type in Mitchell and weblook.
It is very very funny.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Honestly, type in Mitchell, weblook and just nuts. And so
the issue here, or the I would say the allure,
is that Bo Brummel is able to ask people not
to pay for expensive materials necessarily, but to pay with
their time. So his style becomes a matter of technique
(23:39):
rather than a matter of finance, which means middle class
and upper class folks alike can say, oh, yeah, I know, Bo,
here's my fancy, fancy thing. And because of this, now
we see the evolution of the cravats from a decorative
neck dressing to a very intricate thing. It's a statement
(24:01):
of ability, not just a statement of socioeconomic status.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Which is neat because it does kind of level the
playing field many ties today. You would really have to
look very hard, or like flip it around and see
the label to tell whether it was in fact a
fancy tie or not. But what really does the trick
and sets it off It's part of an outfit is
how well that half windsor is tied and how well
spaced it was, Because again I have to look up
(24:27):
a YouTube video every time and I still barely get
it right. It really does require a little bit of
precision to get it looking really sharp and have the
right length, have the square of the not perfectly spaced.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Hit your gig line. Yeah, this is all true. Women
go crazy for a sharp dressed man. We're also shouting
out our buddy bo Brummel here because Noel he is
the guy who started the trend of wearing black evening wear.
He is the black tie event guy.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
He is. Indeed, I knew we were going to get there. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Pamphlet was actually circulated called neck Cloth. It sounds kind
of like a death metal band name a little bit.
I could picture catch you picture of this word when
you're looking at it on paper written in that crazy,
unintelligible death metal script.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I could also see it being a neckclothitania. I could
see being a HP Lovecraft monster like totally lou It
is the real title. It's a pamphlet that comes out
in eighteen eighteen, and it has fourteen ways to tie
a cravat. It probably possibly leads to the common phrase
(25:38):
we used to describe this stuff today, the.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Tie, because it's so funny and I never would have
thought about this, Ben, But the tie. It refers more
to the act than the object.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, the verb.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Right, because as as the not becomes more important than
the material used to create the knots, as as that
you know, inversion or inflection point hits, people are more
now referring to the act of the tie. I don't
care if it's made of silk or you know, a
(26:14):
common cotton thread. I want to see how you rolled it.
Did you do a mathematical did you do the American?
The Irish? The male coach? These are all knots that
are in the reverse Calgary, Yeah, all the good ones.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, all the good ones. Did you get did you
get it? Doggye style? But it is.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
But it is interesting though, because it does sort of
like it's a different kind of exclusivity. You know that's
not based on it's based on kind of like being
in the know rather than you know, necessarily having a
ton of money.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right, Yeah, it's it's arguably merit meritocratic, right, if you
can figure out how to tie the knot. Then someone
may say, you know what kind of respect you all
fabric but I am in awe of your tact. Yes,
you know techability, you all noting abilities and for a while, yeah,
(27:12):
obviously this was one of those why would you do
it flexes. Just like most people don't own a yacht today,
until the eighteen sixties, most people didn't own a fancy
cravat or a tie. We know that by eighteen forty
(27:33):
thing people had started saying tie instead of cravats, But
until like it took twenty years. Until the eighteen sixties,
the tie was handmade, right fashioned from muslin or lace
or linen, and then it had to be constantly laundered
and pressed. That's usually going to be done by servants.
(27:54):
So only only the fancy boys wore it because these
things were and the keyster when it came to upkeep,
it was a status symbol. It said I can hire
people to do beat me. Here Max, it said I
can hire people to.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Do for me, and it remains the status similar to
this day. In business, for example, you know there are
professions where if you're not wearing a suit and tie
to work, you are not considered professional and you will
(28:30):
get dinged, you know, and possibly even told to go
home and change. There are certain restaurants, for example, high
fine dining restaurants, where they will have a suit and
tie on, you know, like to loan out to folks
who dare show up, you know, not dress properly.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yes, yeah, that's true. The lunar suit for you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We do have the Industrial Revolution to thank or accuse
for the popularity of the necktie the late eighteen hundreds
in the West, working professionals became increasingly aware of how
they looked, to your point, when they're out in public,
and the tie provided a way to mark their appearance
(29:15):
as an individual of note, similar to certain hats. So
more and more men in the middle class are dressing
for success. They want to be upwardly mobile. They want
to have a tie, a nice hat, a nice suit,
perhaps a see your sucker, And the industries of the
(29:36):
world answer them. The sewing machine is invented, the assembly
line is invented. It is easier now at this point
in time to buy a tie because they're no longer handmade.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You can go to a store and they may have.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Fifty ties, they may have three different varieties of ties.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Find the one that.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Fits for you. This is increased availability, continued popularity. Uh,
the fanciest dandies in London or wearing this, which makes
them taste makers. People are following them along and they
just keep getting more and more complicated with the knots.
I think there was like an arms race. Sure, fanciest
(30:20):
necktie knot?
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I mean, ben nodding is in its own right kind
of a form of technology.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, and really quickly.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
But am I the only one that whenever I hear seersucker,
it just sounds like an insult to me.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I do like it is nowhere where you could call
someone a seersucker. We should do that next time we're
in a different country together.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
We mentioned the American and the Irish, the male coach,
et cetera, et cetera. Excuse me, we should also mention
the four in hand not one of the most well
known conventional tie knots today. It was created in the
eighteen hundreds. Why did it get the name.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
The four in hand being better than one in bush? Yes, yes,
if I'm not mistaken now, the knot actually resembled the
way a driver would tie the reins to their carriage
pull or the harnet.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I guess what would you call it?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
The yoke or whatever that was attached to the four
horses drawing the carriage.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So the name did feel kind of like a natural fit. Yeah, yeah,
because it looked like that. Think four in hand, four
horses in hand. There's another theory that it's named specifically
after a famous carriage driving club in London, the fore
in Hand, and that they loved the branding and helped
popularize the knot. This is where we see another neck
(31:43):
accessory come into play, the Ascot name for the Royal
Ascot race.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And then of course kiss my Royal Ascot.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
And then of course the problematic ugh loved by some,
hated by others, the bow tie.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, it's a it's a vibe, you know, it is
definitely a vibe, But it is it has come to
occupy a different kind of echelon.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I guess of you know, fashion.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Choice policy wonks, Kentucky Derby types.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I had to I tell you, Nation of Islam, you know,
really popularly good with with their with their bow ties.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Did I tell you I had to wear a bow tie?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Recently?
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Forced you to do this? Why did they hurt you.
You know, I had that Knoxville thing, so, oh, that's right.
I had to wear a bow tie for a thing.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But Knoxville does seem like bow tie country.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yes, shout out to our our Paltillan fagate.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It was to see dandy.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Well, in my defense, I do know how to tie
a bow tie, so I wasn't wearing a clip on,
which is apparently the fashion.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Sin really, oh Sin, thank you?
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because you can tell, you can tell,
you could always tell for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So in the nineteen twenties we know that a New
York tie maker named Jesse Langsdorf changed the game because
he figured out you could cut fabric at an angle
and then sew it together in three segments, which allowed
a tie to go back to its original shape after
(33:18):
you curled it and nodded it around your neck, which
meant now you didn't have to have a team of
servants to continually launder or impress your tie. Makes it
even more accessible for people around the world.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Well, not to mention that Langdorf's tie, the fabric of
it was very I guess, springing, and it would kind
of retain its shape a lot better than the previous
types of fabric where you would have to press.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Them and launder them in order for them to keep
their shapes.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, and there were other moments of evolution along the way.
The duke of Windsor created the windsor not.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
But is there a full windsor I'm sorry, I was
joking earlier about half joking. Half Windsor is the one
we know that I think is the most popular, kind
of basic not for a neck tie.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But is there a full windsor a full I don't
think there is. There is one hundred.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, my friend Vick's big fan of that one. Yeah.
Basically the way he just grabs it to me is
just another It's another rap.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, it's another go round.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You just need you have to have for another lap
around the tree, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
You just need a longer tie to do it you
can't do with a standard tie.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, we also know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We also know that ties in bright colors and celebratory
dan flash patterns were introduced in the post World War
two boom. They're still kind of popular. Nineteen fifties. You
see the skinny tie as well.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I like the skinny tie. I think it's kind of
kind of kind of hip.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I prefer skinny tie. David Lynch is a skinny tie guy.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's what I got with me.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Yeah, the men in black, they get skinny ties, you
know what I mean. David Duchovny as a fox molder
skinny tie.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
I just find them to be sharp and a little
less old fashioned looking, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, because what we're talking about is in contrast to
the nineteen seventies extra large ties. They were called kipper ties,
you know. They're the ones that almost look like a
clown would wear.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
One under very cartoonist yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And today there are hundreds of other interesting things about ties,
you know. The it's a work in progress, it continues today.
It does not serve a physical function. It serves a
socioeconomic function. And they're all sorts of arbitrary rules about
where and why you should wear a tie a specific way,
(35:43):
why you shouldn't, what is appropriate, what's not, what's not.
I think they're thank you for that, thank you for
that rimshot.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Max. Can you hear my headshake?
Speaker 4 (35:54):
I could hear your eyes and I'm moving air around
with MYO.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So that's our that's our show. That is the history
of neckties. We solved it.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Can I give you prop can I give you props though,
real quick, Ben for finding a copy of this neckcloth
Titania pamphlet. Uh, and it does have just these lovely
little diagrams. Let's see what do we have here, I mean, zoom, man,
We've got.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
The Oriental that age so well.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Yeah, the Napoleon, which is a little bit more of
like an old timey kind.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Of just draped. It looks super lazy. Yeah, very I agree.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Uh, the American, which is sort of just tied in
the middle, and none of these really outside of the
what is I can't read the text because it's all
written in very flourishy handwriting and it's a little bit
of a low rest graphic. But very few of these
tie methods resemble the modern neck tie, except for this
sixth one down, which again I can't read it. It's
(36:56):
like the mail coach or the mail coach, okay, mail
coach that no one has that hanging straight down. But
most of these other ones look more like you got
a bow tied around your neck.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And they all look like they're turtlenecks for some reason.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Yeah, or like really high collar kind of you know,
the starch high collars.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And then at the bottom.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
It shows you the way of folding, and I guess
to preserve the shape for when you're storing it and
when you're done with your fancy So.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Weird, dude.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Also, do people wear ties with turtlenecks?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That would be that's like putting a hat on a hat.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
That suspenders plus a belt. Isn't exactly It seems a
little unga potchka. To quote my my favorite podcast, The
dough Boys.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah we know, still neckties showed no signs of abaiting
and popularity. They're the most famous gift given on Father's Day.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Here ordering on lazy right, Like I like getting well
into the territory of lace.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I think so too.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Unless it's a tradition and your father truly does just
love ties, and you're you're picking out something very clever
that they would enjoy, he might just put up with it.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
To jump in here real quick. It is actually funny
because now at the Williams household, it's much more likely
for my father to give me a tie than the
other way around.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Good turnment thing tabled, Yeah, perfect, Like the office, get
your numbers up.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Of just yelling about numbers there are there. It is
a numbers game. Then it is a numbers game.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
One other thing we should say before we end. There
is a word, and this will help our pals at
the Williams Compound. There is a word for people who
collect ties. Gravitologist.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Give me that that, give me that necktie.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I must snatch off your necktie in my collection because
I'm a gramatologist.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Sounds hilarious.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
It sounds like something we would have made up.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Just hang it out. Have we talked about uluologists oolologists.
It's it's an egg thing. It's like someone who studies eggs.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
I learned it from this game that I love and
I've become obsessed with and it's changed my relationship with birds.
It's called Wingspan, and there's a particular type of bonus
card that involves collecting lots of eggs in particular habitats
in the game.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
And it is the Ula Lagist card.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Oh fascinating. Okay, I was thinking of ula elation, but
that's definitely a different thing.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
This is cool.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I look forward to playing Wingspan with you in the future,
and folks, we look forward to hearing your crazy necktie stories. Yes,
the current most expensive deck tie in the world cost
around two hundred and twenty thousand dollars by a new
It's got diamonds on it as the main thing. And
(39:43):
if we've said anything off, perhaps it's because we are
translating from a non English language. If that is the case,
if that is funny or interesting to you, join yeah,
join us later this week, because what are we doing.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
We're doing a history of Well it's gonna be probably
one in a series. I don't think we've started this
series yet, history of Weird and Ridiculous mistracks.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Okay, well, then we're back in maybe big.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, big big
thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister, as well as
Eves Jeff Goat. Christopher hasiotis here in spirit.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Can we just say huge congratulations to Jonathan Strickland aka
the quist for I guess sixteen years of the podcast
tech Stuff, and he is going to be stepping down
from that show soon and I think we're gonna be
doing some guesting on his last episodes of tech Stuff,
(40:42):
so be on the lookout for that.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
We'll let you know when those are coming. But love
that guy, Hate that guy, Love that guy?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Mm hmm, Jonathan, answer my text anyway, so big big
thanks too, of course, aj Bahamas, Jacob's big big thanks
to Gabe Luzier, The Rude Dude's over at Ridiculous Crime
and Noel big big thanks to you, my guy.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Oh Gus. Well bet we'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. We are so glad you're here. We're
also going to welcome our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I guess welcome back. We love you so much. He
has a big podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
You guys know how much I love neckties.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You guys know I have so much. That's the talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, it's like curling your necktie. Oh god, now we have.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
To do you have a tie rack that would do
you have enough ties that would necessitate an entire rack?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
An entire rack?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh my goodness. Well that's uh, that's mister Noel.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Brown, because I have one time.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
You know what, man, every time I have to put
it on, I have to look up a YouTube video
on how to tie it.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm not even joking. Only do a.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Half windsor That's the only one I've learned how to
do off a memory.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You guys don't know the different knots, full windsor or bust.
For me, guys, I'm Ben Bullen. We are We are
following up on a conversation we had earlier, longtime ridiculous historians.
We're you know, we're no better than anyone else. We're
not some sort of uh moral nor intellectual signposts for
(01:43):
the world but for yourself. But we do know, I
would say, we do have a pretty good spidery sense
for things that seem normal yet are ridiculous, And that
is why we're doing this episode about neckties.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Well, when you give it a little extra thought, it
does start to resemble some weird future fashion thing that
to the time traveler, the unsuspecting time traveler, just makes
no sense.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like I'm trying to think of an example Inmoli Man,
you don't know how to use the three seashells.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
That is ben you mind reader, that is exactly that specifically,
and the flavor of that. In science fiction, there's always like,
you know, some weird like cylindrical hat or something like that.
It's shaped like a you know, polygon or something like.
That's not what cylindrical means, but you know what I'm
saying it does. It's not functional. It's just a little
bit of an odd choice that clearly came from somewhere, but.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Where but where's Yeah, there's it's almost functioning like flare.
Generally speaking, the necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental
rather than functional. Think about it. A tie goes around
your neck, but it's not going to keep you warm
the way a scarf would. It's not a good it's
(02:58):
not a great napkin. It's not a great mop nor
great towel. You could do a tourniquet if you had to,
You really could.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
You could put it around your head if you wanted
to go full office Rambo mode. If I'm not mistaken,
I believe Young Gizmo did that in Gremlins too, the
new batch.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
He wore a neck tie at his head and.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Was shooting those pesky gremlins with a paper clip bow
and arrow with flaming match sticks.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know what to neat about a tie, though?
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Is a tie not only is it an accoutrement or
a decorative, ornamental piece of kit itself. You can even
decorate the decorative thing with like tie pins.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Yes, yes, anyone's wondering clipping ties? Fifteen ties, fifteen ties.
We were waiting for the number. I've already given my number,
and it's embarrassing. So you guys win by default.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Oh boy, I've got a I'm not going to do
show until here, But I have inherited several very old ties.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Ties.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's okay where them at fancy occasions, because that's what
a tie is supposed to tell you in modern day civilization.
If you see someone walking around they got a tie on,
it's as though there's it's like having.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
A fancy watch.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It's like they're saying, look at me, world, I'm doing
important stuff today.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
It's like, look at me, world, I have enough money
that I can invest in this stupid thing around my neck.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know, I love the idea of a black tie affair. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
It really is the mark of the fanciest of engagements
or dinners or parties.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, it reminds me to all of the one time
I got punked so hard by our buddy Miles Gray
over at Daily Zeitgeist because I said I didn't understand
fancy wristwatches. I said, it's either money laundering after a
certain threshold, or it's just a status symbol. In a
(04:53):
world where everyone has smartphones, your wristwatch just says look
at me, I could tell time twice.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I will say, as I've gotten a little older and
I've started to maybe get a little more interested in
some of the finer things in life, whether I own
them or not, I do appreciate the engineering that goes
into a really really high end wristwatch. And similarly with
like a nice, really nice necktie. You know, it is
not engineering exactly, but the fabric, the weave, the knits,
(05:22):
you know, the pattern, the crazy pattern like it damn flashes.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, yeah, this is crazy too, So let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a
flex is surprisingly old. If you go back to ancient
civilizations far before Seville Row or Savile Row, you can
you can see that China, Roam, the Egyptians. These people
(05:57):
were rock and stuff around their neck and it was
not functional. It was a status symbol.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
It also wasn't like a typical blinged out neck piece,
you know, a necklace.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That is a different class of accoutrement.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
We are specifically talking about carefully tied pieces of cloth
wrapped around one's neck. Since the item is only shown
in images of Chinese soldiers terra cotta sculptures rather from
the second century BCE, it did appear to be either
a sign of rank perhaps or some sort of like
like you'd see a general wearing those those metals on
(06:33):
their chest or whatever, or the epaulets, is that what
they're called, the things.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
On the shoulder ail eplets.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Mm hmm, so yeah, it would seem to be an
indication of one's status within a military organization.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, we see this again as well. In ancient Rome,
a world away, they had a strip of linen that
they called a sudarium and you worred around the neck
or sometimes in the early days, you tied it around
the wrist, as was the fashion at the time, and
it was dude's rocking this. It meant the same thing,
(07:08):
some sort of exemplary performance. In ancient Egypt, they would
take a similar kind of cloth, they would adorn it
with precious stones, and pharaohs would wear it.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Okay, Archaeologists have in fact found what they believed to
be some sort of I guess, protective or magical talismen
referred to as the knot of isis wrapped around the
necks of mummies, meant to be some sort of protection
in the afterlife. It is called this because it resembles
a knot that would have been used to secure garments
(07:41):
worn by Egyptian gods, and we're talking about knots.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It's really hard not to us keep it. We're keeping it.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
It was accidentally on purpose, you know, not to think
about the way neckties are tied in various fashions.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And as our pals Ven Rafael Schneider points out writing
for Gentlemen's Gazette, certain members of tribes over in Oceania
also wore neck adornments. It's it's impossible to establish the
specific period of time when the first person began to
wrap knotted fabric around their necks, but it's pretty evident
(08:22):
that neckware of some sort has a tradition, a global tradition.
It's not just in the Americas, it's not just in
Western Europe. Across the world, various cultures, neck adornment of
some sort was seen as a mark of distinction. To
your point, now that maybe distinction of military office or
(08:42):
simply royalty. It is for the fancy people.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, a sign of opulence, you know, again, a bit
of a flex, like a fancy wristwatch.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
There it is.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And we know, we were looking into this together. We
know the ancestor of what we call the modern necktie,
of which Max has how many Max seventeen seventeen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I think that's right. I remember these things.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It's important data, right, Like when we go to a
friend's nice house and we immediately look up Zillow.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
God, people love it. When you do that, people love it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So the ancestor of the modern tie goes back probably
to the sixteen hundreds. It's a story that is ridiculously
rife with mercenaries, war, and you'll love this our returning characters,
Noel Brown, it's the Macaroni's.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right, we called them that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
But wasn't that referring to like the high fashion of
the Italians?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Oh, it was referring to doodle dandy song.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yes, what would be called Dandy's If you if you
look back to the story of why people wear ties now,
then you're really looking at Croatian mercenaries in France under
the Sun King.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
And of course Louis the fourteenth, they employed Croatian mercenaries
during various battles.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
As folks of their statue are wont to do.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
These mercenaries wore decorative scarves or knotted neckerchiefs as part
of their military kit their uniforms. The demarcation of officers
and rank was determined by the quality of the fabric.
The finer the fabric, the higher the rank. The coarser
the fabric, the lower the rank.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so you're in the trenches, you might have burlap
on your neck, right, maybe died somehow, But if you were,
if your officer class, then you have better fabric and
probably better patterns approaching damn flash. The front line soldier neckerchiefs.
And I love the word neckerchiefs too, almost as much
(10:52):
as I like cravat, which we're about to get to. Yes, yes, yes,
with the croats, with the Croatians. These neckerchiefs are knotted
around the soldier's necks and they have a function. They're
meant to hold up capes the ends of the cloth.
This basically this cape fastener. They're arranged in a bow.
(11:16):
If you're a fancy boy, they get finished with a
tuft or a tassel.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
If you're a regular dude, you just tie it off
and hope your cape does like, does its job and
stays on.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Ben, I propose we bring back capes just in regular
walking around type of situations.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, I was talking a couple.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Of the moves you can do the way you can
kind of whip it in front of your face in
a show of a mystique.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, you can do a Dracula, you can do the shadow.
You can also do a beautiful entrance and exit. Talking
with our pal Hally Fry a few years ago, I
kind of asked her about that because she also did
a show for a while called Dressed, which is all
about the history of fashion.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Well, and she's also she literally makes all of our
own clothes, that is true, and they're great, mainly Star
Wars themes or Haunted Mansion themes.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So a nice inspirational thing. This tells us just how
great our good friend Holly is. A nice inspirational anecdote
about her. She hit me back and she said, bin,
just be the change. Just start wearing a cape. And
I said, I'm too short, and she said that's what's
stopping you, your ideas and your preconception. So Holly also
(12:31):
obviously rocks capes. Unanimously agree.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I have a bit of a gray stripe in my
hair that I think is kind of cool, and a
lot of barbers seem to think it's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Holly thought it was really cool and thought.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I shouldn't stop there, and she brought me some silver
hair dye to the office so that I could like
lean into it even further. I'm like, but Holly, it's
already silver. She's like, no, no, you can plus that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Make it gray.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Streak up, you bad boy. I can hear it in
her voice, make it pop. So these scarves were in
addition to being cape fasteners, all right, that's the spoiler,
that's the origin story. In addition to that function, they
were known as kind of branding or uniform colorful patterns
(13:16):
and designs. Again, not as intricate as obviously the designs
that Dan flashes over at the Shops by the Creek,
but still flashy.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Indeed, these colorful scarves did, in fact at this point
have somewhat of a function, but because you know, they
were meant to secure another garment, but the king was
more impressed with the fashion sense that they kind of represented,
and Louis the thirteenth decided he was going to co
opt this fashion, these neckerchiefs, and require them to be
(13:50):
worn at royal events. This is almost like the very
first introduction of the black tie affairs.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yes, yes, well done.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
This is the This is crazy because you know, a
lot of fashion trends come top down, some come bottom up,
but a lot come top down. And the people of France,
starting with the richie Riches, first called this successory a
crow at croat after the Croatian mercenaries known to wear them.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Would a crow at be a single Croatian? Yes, but
specially different, Yes, that's right. So it is a fun
example that we see in this historic game of telephone
that we're always looking at, where a mispronunciation or just
something being a little too hard for the average folks
to say results in a word becoming a different word
just for convenience sake, and then that word is the
(14:43):
one that kind of just takes off.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So the the French public is calling this the crow at,
and then it becomes, to your point, it becomes corrupted
to la cravat or cravat or cravat in English exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
And over the next couple of years, this fashion trend
absolutely dominated across France and then eventually spread to the
rest of Europe. There was a bit of a function
still at this time. It was in fact a little
more comfortable than what we know historically as the heavily
starched linen ruffs that you know we're talking about, oh
(15:20):
you know, yeah, the big round thing that goes all
the way around the neck and you'll often see in
fancy portraits of royalty. It is absolutely absurd looking. But
that's another example of a thing out of context. It
just looks idiotic and uncomfortable. But for whatever reason, it
was considered super cool and the height of trendiness.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, look at me. I can hire someone to fold
by collars for me. Look at all the folds. That
was their first day of flashes. But the so the
cravat is cool because it's still showing off your neck
flex but it's way looser, it's way less rep than
these linen ruffs. And the cravats become more popular with
(16:05):
the wealthy. They also become more and more intricate. They're
increasingly elaborate. They're incorporating lace to their cravats, sophisticated knots,
all all this stuff. Like if you looked at the
fanciest ties in this period of time, you would think
who else would wear this other than mister Worldwide, by
(16:28):
which we mean Pitbull of course.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And if you can picture it too, they did have
a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I think I was maybe a sort of misspoke when
I described the rough There certainly were different types of ruffs.
The ones that I'm picturing are the ones that would
go around in like a circle, like encircling your neck
like a frickin planet. But then the other kinds of
roughs were much more the very fancy linen collars that
would get stuffed into your shirt. The cravat was just
a little bit more of a simplified version of that.
(16:54):
But early cravats were intended to kind of be stuffed
into the front.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Of the shirt.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Which I don't know this for sure, Ben, but I
imagine is where the expression stuff shirt comes from, when
you're referring to.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
A fancy boy who's like a little bit up his
own butt.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Interesting. I haven't looked into that etymology. Please find us
on Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. We'd love to hear about this.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
This has been Nola's wildly speculative etymology corner.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
We do know a couple of things.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We do know that the cravat was not just a
craze in France via Croatia. We know the cravat spread
to other parts of Europe. When Charles the Second over
in England, he's known for a few things. When he
encountered the cravat and won the throne, he was all
(17:52):
about this. So again, the king is always the taste maker, right,
That's why Cathilian Spanish still has a manufactured lisp.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Right Bathdona.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So over the course of the next century, the cravat
moves with the tantrums of empire.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
So that's great empire. I mean, it's very clear everyone
totally understands what this means. This is about the monarch
kicking and screaming and pounding their tiny fists and feet
on the ground because they have to have what they
want and if you don't give it to them, then
you will be beheaded.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And there we go.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That's how the cravat catches on in Germany, and then
of course our friends across the Atlantic, the English colonies,
they start rocking this flex as well. At this point
there are numerous variations on the idea of the cravat,
but still they don't look like the relatively slim modern
(18:51):
ties we see today. As a matter of fact, as
we know here Nol people didn't even call them ties
for a while.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Well, it's sort of like the way you might call
a particular style of hat, the stetson, you know, or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They were. It's almost a kind of form of branding.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So you had a variation of a tie that Louis
the fourteenth was quite fond of called steinkirk.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's the steinkirk.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
It is, Yeah, sporting a single knot and a much
narrower shape, beginning to resemble what we know today is
the modern necktie.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
This is where we see the setup for the stars
of the song Yankee Doodle Dandy stuck a feather in
his cap and called it macaroni.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
That is referring to the folks we mentioned before, the
sort of metro sexuals of their time, the taste makers,
these young men who were fashion aficionados. I guess we
would call them clothe horses, right. They started in the
(19:54):
late seventeen hundreds tying their neck wear in increasingly difficult
and intricate knots and styles which were sort of like
a code, so you could see someone and know their identifications,
et cetera. Just like how honestly, like how punk dudes
(20:14):
have different patches on their jackets.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Of course, yeah, people in you know, motorcycle gangs, yes, as.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well as well everybody in a motorcycle gang. Thanks for
tuning into the show.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Can we add too that the whole term of macaroni
it was it wasn't just referring to Italians. I mean,
I guess you know that we do also often think
of Italian culture as being very high fashion as well.
But it was a little bit more of a catch
all term for But it was kind of a pejorative,
right Like, it wasn't a compliment. It was referring to
people that dressed so fashionably, you know, in the styles
(20:50):
of the time, that they kind of looked ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, that was the idea.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The idea was, Yeah, calling someone a macaroni was not
a comp It was saying, look at this fet fancy boy. Basically,
there maybe was even a little bit of veiled homophobia
in there. There was an implication for sure. And we
see still the cravat or the idea of decorative neckware, nakerchiefs.
(21:20):
He keeps getting adopted by powerful people. In the early
eighteen hundreds, this guy named Napoleon, who is most famous
for a cameo appearance in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
He did some other stuff and he was he you know,
he got punked by a gang of rabbits one time.
He also, during the Battle of Waterloo, rocked a cravat,
(21:43):
And you had this great, great point, Noel, about the
origin of a black tie event. It all goes back
to a young dandy named Bo Brummel.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Bo Brummel helped to really solidify the way we think
of tying a tie or a cravat. He was a
young hip fashion icon and was a big fan of
wearing a very complicatedly tied cravat. But when he did it,
(22:19):
it was almost like a magic trick.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
He had this style and flare with which he was
able to tie his tie that really turned heads.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, and his style was expensive in terms of time,
just like when you see someone on Instagram or TikTok
saying here's my guide to how you do this.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Thing, however, or like a cooking show where it's like
there's always like the Great mitchellin websketch that's making fun
of Gordon Ramsey, where he's like, you didn't even show
the step where you did the potato thing.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
As far as I'm concerned, it might as well be magic.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Locally, gradings simply cooked exactly Shakespeare's just would in order.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
That's a great I'm not just good at this as
you are. Will you stay? Oh gosh, what agreed? Will
you stay forever? Yeah? I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Please watch this, guys, just type in Mitchell and weblook.
It is very very funny.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Honestly, type in Mitchell, weblook and just nuts. And so
the issue here, or the I would say the allure,
is that Bo Brummel is able to ask people not
to pay for expensive materials necessarily, but to pay with
their time. So his style becomes a matter of technique
(23:39):
rather than a matter of finance, which means middle class
and upper class folks alike can say, oh, yeah, I know, Bo,
here's my fancy, fancy thing. And because of this, now
we see the evolution of the cravats from a decorative
neck dressing to a very intricate thing. It's a statement
(24:01):
of ability, not just a statement of socioeconomic status.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Which is neat because it does kind of level the
playing field many ties today. You would really have to
look very hard, or like flip it around and see
the label to tell whether it was in fact a
fancy tie or not. But what really does the trick
and sets it off It's part of an outfit is
how well that half windsor is tied and how well
spaced it was, Because again I have to look up
(24:27):
a YouTube video every time and I still barely get
it right. It really does require a little bit of
precision to get it looking really sharp and have the
right length, have the square of the not perfectly spaced.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Hit your gig line. Yeah, this is all true. Women
go crazy for a sharp dressed man. We're also shouting
out our buddy bo Brummel here because Noel he is
the guy who started the trend of wearing black evening wear.
He is the black tie event guy.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
He is. Indeed, I knew we were going to get there. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Pamphlet was actually circulated called neck Cloth. It sounds kind
of like a death metal band name a little bit.
I could picture catch you picture of this word when
you're looking at it on paper written in that crazy,
unintelligible death metal script.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I could also see it being a neckclothitania. I could
see being a HP Lovecraft monster like totally lou It
is the real title. It's a pamphlet that comes out
in eighteen eighteen, and it has fourteen ways to tie
a cravat. It probably possibly leads to the common phrase
(25:38):
we used to describe this stuff today, the.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Tie, because it's so funny and I never would have
thought about this, Ben, But the tie. It refers more
to the act than the object.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, the verb.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Right, because as as the not becomes more important than
the material used to create the knots, as as that
you know, inversion or inflection point hits, people are more
now referring to the act of the tie. I don't
care if it's made of silk or you know, a
(26:14):
common cotton thread. I want to see how you rolled it.
Did you do a mathematical did you do the American?
The Irish? The male coach? These are all knots that
are in the reverse Calgary, Yeah, all the good ones.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, all the good ones. Did you get did you
get it? Doggye style? But it is.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
But it is interesting though, because it does sort of
like it's a different kind of exclusivity. You know that's
not based on it's based on kind of like being
in the know rather than you know, necessarily having a
ton of money.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right, Yeah, it's it's arguably merit meritocratic, right, if you
can figure out how to tie the knot. Then someone
may say, you know what kind of respect you all
fabric but I am in awe of your tact. Yes,
you know techability, you all noting abilities and for a while, yeah,
(27:12):
obviously this was one of those why would you do
it flexes. Just like most people don't own a yacht today,
until the eighteen sixties, most people didn't own a fancy
cravat or a tie. We know that by eighteen forty
(27:33):
thing people had started saying tie instead of cravats, But
until like it took twenty years. Until the eighteen sixties,
the tie was handmade, right fashioned from muslin or lace
or linen, and then it had to be constantly laundered
and pressed. That's usually going to be done by servants.
(27:54):
So only only the fancy boys wore it because these
things were and the keyster when it came to upkeep,
it was a status symbol. It said I can hire
people to do beat me. Here Max, it said I
can hire people to.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Do for me, and it remains the status similar to
this day. In business, for example, you know there are
professions where if you're not wearing a suit and tie
to work, you are not considered professional and you will
(28:30):
get dinged, you know, and possibly even told to go
home and change. There are certain restaurants, for example, high
fine dining restaurants, where they will have a suit and
tie on, you know, like to loan out to folks
who dare show up, you know, not dress properly.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yes, yeah, that's true. The lunar suit for you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We do have the Industrial Revolution to thank or accuse
for the popularity of the necktie the late eighteen hundreds
in the West, working professionals became increasingly aware of how
they looked, to your point, when they're out in public,
and the tie provided a way to mark their appearance
(29:15):
as an individual of note, similar to certain hats. So
more and more men in the middle class are dressing
for success. They want to be upwardly mobile. They want
to have a tie, a nice hat, a nice suit,
perhaps a see your sucker, And the industries of the
(29:36):
world answer them. The sewing machine is invented, the assembly
line is invented. It is easier now at this point
in time to buy a tie because they're no longer handmade.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
You can go to a store and they may have.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Fifty ties, they may have three different varieties of ties.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Find the one that.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Fits for you. This is increased availability, continued popularity. Uh,
the fanciest dandies in London or wearing this, which makes
them taste makers. People are following them along and they
just keep getting more and more complicated with the knots.
I think there was like an arms race. Sure, fanciest
(30:20):
necktie knot?
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I mean, ben nodding is in its own right kind
of a form of technology.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, and really quickly.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
But am I the only one that whenever I hear seersucker,
it just sounds like an insult to me.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I do like it is nowhere where you could call
someone a seersucker. We should do that next time we're
in a different country together.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
We mentioned the American and the Irish, the male coach,
et cetera, et cetera. Excuse me, we should also mention
the four in hand not one of the most well
known conventional tie knots today. It was created in the
eighteen hundreds. Why did it get the name.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
The four in hand being better than one in bush? Yes, yes,
if I'm not mistaken now, the knot actually resembled the
way a driver would tie the reins to their carriage
pull or the harnet.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I guess what would you call it?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
The yoke or whatever that was attached to the four
horses drawing the carriage.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So the name did feel kind of like a natural fit. Yeah, yeah,
because it looked like that. Think four in hand, four
horses in hand. There's another theory that it's named specifically
after a famous carriage driving club in London, the fore
in Hand, and that they loved the branding and helped
popularize the knot. This is where we see another neck
(31:43):
accessory come into play, the Ascot name for the Royal
Ascot race.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And then of course kiss my Royal Ascot.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
And then of course the problematic ugh loved by some,
hated by others, the bow tie.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, it's a it's a vibe, you know, it is
definitely a vibe, But it is it has come to
occupy a different kind of echelon.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I guess of you know, fashion.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Choice policy wonks, Kentucky Derby types.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I had to I tell you, Nation of Islam, you know,
really popularly good with with their with their bow ties.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Did I tell you I had to wear a bow tie?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Recently?
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Forced you to do this? Why did they hurt you.
You know, I had that Knoxville thing, so, oh, that's right.
I had to wear a bow tie for a thing.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But Knoxville does seem like bow tie country.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yes, shout out to our our Paltillan fagate.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It was to see dandy.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Well, in my defense, I do know how to tie
a bow tie, so I wasn't wearing a clip on,
which is apparently the fashion.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Sin really, oh Sin, thank you?
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because you can tell, you can tell,
you could always tell for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So in the nineteen twenties we know that a New
York tie maker named Jesse Langsdorf changed the game because
he figured out you could cut fabric at an angle
and then sew it together in three segments, which allowed
a tie to go back to its original shape after
(33:18):
you curled it and nodded it around your neck, which
meant now you didn't have to have a team of
servants to continually launder or impress your tie. Makes it
even more accessible for people around the world.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Well, not to mention that Langdorf's tie, the fabric of
it was very I guess, springing, and it would kind
of retain its shape a lot better than the previous
types of fabric where you would have to press.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Them and launder them in order for them to keep
their shapes.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, and there were other moments of evolution along the way.
The duke of Windsor created the windsor not.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
But is there a full windsor I'm sorry, I was
joking earlier about half joking. Half Windsor is the one
we know that I think is the most popular, kind
of basic not for a neck tie.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
But is there a full windsor a full I don't
think there is. There is one hundred.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, my friend Vick's big fan of that one. Yeah.
Basically the way he just grabs it to me is
just another It's another rap.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, it's another go round.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You just need you have to have for another lap
around the tree, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
You just need a longer tie to do it you
can't do with a standard tie.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, we also know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We also know that ties in bright colors and celebratory
dan flash patterns were introduced in the post World War
two boom. They're still kind of popular. Nineteen fifties. You
see the skinny tie as well.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I like the skinny tie. I think it's kind of
kind of kind of hip.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I prefer skinny tie. David Lynch is a skinny tie guy.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's what I got with me.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Yeah, the men in black, they get skinny ties, you
know what I mean. David Duchovny as a fox molder
skinny tie.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
I just find them to be sharp and a little
less old fashioned looking, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, because what we're talking about is in contrast to
the nineteen seventies extra large ties. They were called kipper ties,
you know. They're the ones that almost look like a
clown would wear.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
One under very cartoonist yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And today there are hundreds of other interesting things about ties,
you know. The it's a work in progress, it continues today.
It does not serve a physical function. It serves a
socioeconomic function. And they're all sorts of arbitrary rules about
where and why you should wear a tie a specific way,
(35:43):
why you shouldn't, what is appropriate, what's not, what's not.
I think they're thank you for that, thank you for
that rimshot.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Max. Can you hear my headshake?
Speaker 4 (35:54):
I could hear your eyes and I'm moving air around
with MYO.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So that's our that's our show. That is the history
of neckties. We solved it.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Can I give you prop can I give you props though,
real quick, Ben for finding a copy of this neckcloth
Titania pamphlet. Uh, and it does have just these lovely
little diagrams. Let's see what do we have here, I mean, zoom, man,
We've got.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
The Oriental that age so well.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Yeah, the Napoleon, which is a little bit more of
like an old timey kind.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Of just draped. It looks super lazy. Yeah, very I agree.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Uh, the American, which is sort of just tied in
the middle, and none of these really outside of the
what is I can't read the text because it's all
written in very flourishy handwriting and it's a little bit
of a low rest graphic. But very few of these
tie methods resemble the modern neck tie, except for this
sixth one down, which again I can't read it. It's
(36:56):
like the mail coach or the mail coach, okay, mail
coach that no one has that hanging straight down. But
most of these other ones look more like you got
a bow tied around your neck.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And they all look like they're turtlenecks for some reason.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Yeah, or like really high collar kind of you know,
the starch high collars.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And then at the bottom.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
It shows you the way of folding, and I guess
to preserve the shape for when you're storing it and
when you're done with your fancy So.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Weird, dude.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Also, do people wear ties with turtlenecks?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That would be that's like putting a hat on a hat.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
That suspenders plus a belt. Isn't exactly It seems a
little unga potchka. To quote my my favorite podcast, The
dough Boys.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah we know, still neckties showed no signs of abaiting
and popularity. They're the most famous gift given on Father's Day.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Here ordering on lazy right, Like I like getting well
into the territory of lace.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I think so too.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Unless it's a tradition and your father truly does just
love ties, and you're you're picking out something very clever
that they would enjoy, he might just put up with it.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
To jump in here real quick. It is actually funny
because now at the Williams household, it's much more likely
for my father to give me a tie than the
other way around.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Good turnment thing tabled, Yeah, perfect, Like the office, get
your numbers up.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Of just yelling about numbers there are there. It is
a numbers game. Then it is a numbers game.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
One other thing we should say before we end. There
is a word, and this will help our pals at
the Williams Compound. There is a word for people who
collect ties. Gravitologist.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Give me that that, give me that necktie.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I must snatch off your necktie in my collection because
I'm a gramatologist.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Sounds hilarious.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
It sounds like something we would have made up.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Just hang it out. Have we talked about uluologists oolologists.
It's it's an egg thing. It's like someone who studies eggs.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
I learned it from this game that I love and
I've become obsessed with and it's changed my relationship with birds.
It's called Wingspan, and there's a particular type of bonus
card that involves collecting lots of eggs in particular habitats
in the game.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
And it is the Ula Lagist card.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Oh fascinating. Okay, I was thinking of ula elation, but
that's definitely a different thing.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
This is cool.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I look forward to playing Wingspan with you in the future,
and folks, we look forward to hearing your crazy necktie stories. Yes,
the current most expensive deck tie in the world cost
around two hundred and twenty thousand dollars by a new
It's got diamonds on it as the main thing. And
(39:43):
if we've said anything off, perhaps it's because we are
translating from a non English language. If that is the case,
if that is funny or interesting to you, join yeah,
join us later this week, because what are we doing.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
We're doing a history of Well it's gonna be probably
one in a series. I don't think we've started this
series yet, history of Weird and Ridiculous mistracks.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Okay, well, then we're back in maybe big.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, big big
thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister, as well as
Eves Jeff Goat. Christopher hasiotis here in spirit.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Can we just say huge congratulations to Jonathan Strickland aka
the quist for I guess sixteen years of the podcast
tech Stuff, and he is going to be stepping down
from that show soon and I think we're gonna be
doing some guesting on his last episodes of tech Stuff,
(40:42):
so be on the lookout for that.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
We'll let you know when those are coming. But love
that guy, Hate that guy, Love that guy?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Mm hmm, Jonathan, answer my text anyway, so big big
thanks too, of course, aj Bahamas, Jacob's big big thanks
to Gabe Luzier, The Rude Dude's over at Ridiculous Crime
and Noel big big thanks to you, my guy.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Oh Gus. Well bet we'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Ridiculous History News
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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