January 29, 2026 • 44 mins
Despite being a relatively small country, the South East Asian nation of Thailand is famous across the planet for its unique, delectable cuisine. Heck, nowadays in the United States almost everyone is just a stone's throw away from a Thai restaurant -- so, how did we get here? Why are Thai restaurants suddenly everywhere? As Ben, Noel and Max discover in today's episode: this massive success is the result of a genuine (and delicious) conspiracy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man,
the Myth, the Legend, Max pad Tie.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Williams, Max pad see you Williams.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
May uh the good deal Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
That's a good one. I like padra Hey, there you go. Yes,
that's not on topic. Max, that's not on brand.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Max Man Williams not none other than the one and
only mister Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bullen in
various parts of the world, and Noel, I think it's
fair to say that we love thy food, right, you
love a good lie food.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I love it. Yeah, no, sorry, that wasn't really an
escalation at all, no big fan. One of my favorite
things to cook. I got my start employment wise working
in a kitchen in a restaurant in my hometown, and
they had a handful of tie things on the menu,
including a pad tie, and that's where I kind of
cut my teeth cooking, and a lot of those things
(01:36):
have served me well to this day. I love making
a green curry, veggie or meatd you know, whatever, whatever
you got I'm here for it. That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, and we hope that a lot of us tuning
in tonight also enjoy Thai food. If you have not
tried Thai cuisine, oh, friends and neighbors, you are missing out.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
What are you doing? What do you do your life?
Get out there, get into it, to a Thai restaurant,
this this instant. Put this episode on pause and come back,
and then it'll be much more fun for you.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, come back with some noodles. Come back with with
a flat noodle you like. I love a flat wide noodle.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Uh. Thailand is located in Southeast Asia, and the cuisine
of the country, Thaie cuisine or ahan Thai, is regularly
breeded as one of the best types of food on
the planet. In fact, several poles just recently found that
Thailand is the world's best country for food travel.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It just has such a vibrant mix of ingredients. You know,
you got your lime, bright flavors, you got your your
your curries, you got your spice, you got your crunch
from the peanuts, your noodles, bean sprouts, even even sometimes
you'll see basil and cilantro. It feels like such a
grab bag of ingredients from other types of world cuisines.
(03:06):
It's just it's my favorite.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
You nailed it, man, and I'm nodding like, uh, take
me to church style or take me to the watt
the temple. Here is the issue, folks. This is a
country that has historically been at a cultural crossroads, which means,
like you were saying, Noel, there's nothing quite like Ty food.
We also want to give a big shout out to
(03:31):
all of our fellow ridiculous historian heat loving gormands, including
friend of the show Matt f who regularly requests the
hottest food possible whenever you and I eat Thai food
on the road. He's like a heat seeking missile.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
That good.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, is yes, that's another thing about it, man, Hi
hot well talking about Ty We'll get there, We'll get there,
We'll get there, well, Matt Surewell, oh boy, really, here's
the thing I was thinking about this earlier.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Man.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Wherever you and I go, in our many adventures on
the road, we always find a tie restaurant. Isn't that strange?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It is? I mean it will not once we get
into the deats today, but I will tell you that
I think you know I've been spending a good amount
of time in Germany over the last few years, in
Berlin specifically, and it has some of the best Thai
food I've ever had anywhere, period, full stop. Now, I've
never been to Thailand, so reserving judgment there. But in
(04:47):
New York City, you know, Los Angeles, other parts of
the world, Berlin has it beat.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Also, folks, just to peek behind the curtain. Not to
gas you up too much, Nol, but you are pretty
big deal in Germany, and I hope that you will
agree on air to take Maxim myself with you at
some point.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Oh, I'd love to. I wouldn't say a big deal.
I was, however, once a small German boy and that
has served me well in my travels to deutsch Land.
I love it there. I love Berlin. It's got such
a vibrant, you know, music scene, and cultural scene and
culinary scene that isn't just schnitzel and donors, which are
also great, but yeah, excellent Thie and Vietnamese food there
(05:32):
in Berlin, specifically in the neighborhood of friedrich Heim friedrichs
Hein not shy Hein, Yes, yes, all.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Right, take notes, folks, write that one down and this,
This mystified us originally as we were traveling around. You
might be familiar with Germany, you might be familiar with Thailand,
and you might realize that those two countries are very
far away from each other. So why is there such
(05:59):
a strong tradition of Thai cuisine across the planet. Thailand
has a population of well less than eighty million people,
and it's not a particularly wealthy country, but Thai food
and Thai restaurants are somehow a global phenomena. If you
(06:19):
go anywhere except Antarctica, the odds are that you're going
to be pretty close.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
To a Thai restaurant one hundred percent. And this is
not for nothing. This is not for nothing. We started
asking ourselves. We put our noggets together and we said, hey,
how did this come about? How did this one relatively
small area of Asia become a dominant force in the
(06:47):
world of food? And the answer, we kid you not, folks,
is a conspiracy. I don't know what sound but what
sound cue?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Can we use?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Some sort of dump dum dumb? Perhaps, I don't know.
We leave it to mass aside, but it's true, this
is not something that would be too out of place,
and our sister shows stuff they don't want you to know,
which is now available on Netflix, two episodes a week.
Can you believe it? It's out, It's out there in
(07:18):
the world. I watched a little bit of it. It looks
really good.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
You video team that we work with here at iHeart
did a fantastic job sending us toys and lights, cameras, action,
all that kind of stuff. And it's very real now.
And the fine folks at Netflix have been really delightful
to work with. So if you're interested in seeing our
mugs plastered across the screen, do get ye to Netflix.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yes, high v fourth and toss us, toss us a light,
toss us a double like a little thumbs up or
whatever the newmen cleature is. And you know what I'm thinking.
Our video team worked so hard that they doubtlessly had
a couple of late nights, which probably meant they ordered Thai.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Food, I would like to think. So it's a very
good delivery option wherever you are, right.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's so fast, it's so versatile. Anyway, to understand how
this became a global thing and why it's part of
our ridiculous history exploration, we have to look at the
beginnings of what we call Thai food today, and Noel,
I think we would both not be surprised to learn
(08:30):
that Thai food dates back thousands and thousands of years
and has a lot in common with China.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Absolutely does. You can trace the origins of Thai food,
as you said, been back thousands of years when the
area that we now refer to as Thailand experienced a
huge influx of people from neighboring regions, including modern day China,
and just like nearly anywhere else in the world, the
folks living there worked with the available ingredients.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, yeah, And the interesting part here is that, unlike
other parts of the world, Thailand was absolutely brimming with
all kinds of tasty cool stuff, especially produce. Right Historically,
the majority of meals would feature aquatic plants or animals, herbs,
(09:22):
herbs for days. There's a great deal of biodiversity, for sure,
which lends itself to a strong tradition of regional cuisine.
And unlike some of the perhaps less hospitable climates are there.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
You go, well, yeah, yeah, for sure. What is it
called lutfisk? No, that's different. I'm talking about the shark.
The shark. That's the only way they can do it,
they's got to bury it in the ground until it Yeah,
it's interesting. No, no, no daning on Scandinavian cuisine. But
I was just recently in Denmark, and while they have
some fabulous food options, the local regional cuisine not my bag.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Denmark has has a grand tradition of Indonesian cuisine.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So Thailand, on the other hand, unlike some of those
colder and more arid regions, has an absolute embarrassment of
delightful culinary riches and has. You know, since Thailanders were
Thai landing, it was also far from isolated, surrounded by
other regions with vibrant cuisines and cultures of their own,
places like India, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, which goes back to your original point, right, because
now Thailand or the area that becomes modern day Thailand,
is amalgamating and sort of remixing all these dishes to
fit local taste, availability of ingredients. And there's also a
really interesting tradition of Buddhism, which means there's not a
(10:59):
huge emphasis on meat. And I thought you would love
this too, because you know, here in the West, we
often treat meat or your protein as the big tent item.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
PLoP it on down like a chunk. That's your big
old piece of piece of beast. There. No, they treat
it with equal import and respect as they do to
other ingredients. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so now it's like instead of meat being the
lead guitar in a song, it's an instrument that goes
into this complex kind of harmony. We've got four I
guess we could call them rough categories of traditional tie puisine.
(11:43):
And it's going to make sense when you hear.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
It, folks, especially when you combine the strong cultural influence
of Buddhism that adds to that lack of emphasis towards
meat as being the center of the attraction and ben
real quick aside, have you been watching or have you
watched Culinary Class Wars on Netflix?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I've heard of it. I haven't checked it out. Actually
I thought of you, but as you know, I'm in
a place right now where I don't get the best
Netflix choices. But it's also.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, you can know. Yeah, sometimes VPNs are not the
catch all fixer upper that they used to be. A
lot of these apps now detect you're using one, and
they will not play nice. But the thing that's so
cool about Culinary Class Wars is believe it's based in Korea,
but it has representation from all of these other types
of cuisine, from Chinese to Japanese to even like you know,
(12:38):
fusion type cuisines. And speaking of the Buddhist influence, one
thing that I learned about that maybe would be an
interesting episode on its own sometime is the culture of
temple food. There is a very specific culture around food
prepared by monks at these sacred places of worship, which
(12:59):
of course are to lean entirely vegetarian. And one of
my favorite contestants in the new season of Clinic Class Wars,
I forget her name, but she's referred to as the
Venerable and then whatever her name was, And she's this
delightful little monk and consistently kicks the butts of some
of these meat heavy dishes with her wonderful, purely vegetarian
(13:20):
and occasionally vegan offerings.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Beautiful, beautiful, and we see it often for any current
vegans or vegetarians in the crowd. I had put my
time in as a vegan in the past. I was
vegetarian for several years and I gotta tell you, vegetarian
food can slap. It's all about the sauces, it's all
(13:44):
about the spices. It's probably better for you.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
It's definitely great. I will cook vegetarian cuisine just out
of love of it, not for any kind of health reasons.
I quite often, if I'm making a Thai dish, will
leave the meat out, or if I'm making a nice chili,
will do like a meatless chili, just because so many
wonderful ingredients that have so much flavor that they can
add that are meatless. Yeah, nice papaya salad for instance, right, Yeah,
(14:11):
green papaya salad. Not to say that I don't love
a larb ben, I love a larb. I love a
lob that's like sort of like a meat salad kind
of thing with like, yeah, mince minced mincet, like pork
or beat. I think it's usually pork, and it has
lots of lime in it, and it's just such a vibrant, wonderful,
(14:31):
bright flavor.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And the fish sauce is a big deal. And I'm
glad we're mentioning salads because that's one of the primary
four loose categories of Tai cuisine. It's called yam spicy salads.
Then you got tam pounded foods, you know, with a
mortar and pestle.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That would be like a green papaya salad where you
use a mortar and pestle to smash all that stuff
up or to make to make your pastes as well.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes, yeah, just so your some thumb and stuff. Then
you have kang Those are pretty much the curries, very
heavy Indian influence. And then you have the tom boiled dishes.
This brings in soup as well. You've got deep frying,
stir frying, steaming. Those all come from Chinese culture. India
(15:18):
got there first. Weirdly enough, in fifteen eleven, European cultures
entered the menu because the Portuguese arrived and the people
of modern day Thailand just started folding in Portuguese influences
as well, similar in some.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Ways to Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, the origin story of the bond me right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Ever, sent was gonna say the same thing, which is
like got French baguettes and you know, various other more
indigenous ingredients. But it really does show the influence of
those good old colonizers. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, that's the way to see it sure, mad Hey,
we're talking about diplomacy here, gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I just figured I would set the tone.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You nailed it. You nailed it by Fred. So it's
strange because we consider all of this ancient history. In
a very real way. We could say that Thai cuisine
has been global since the sixteenth century, but it doesn't
quite answer our original question, which you've set up so
(16:27):
beautifully here, Noel, why are Thai restaurants everywhere? The answer
is gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, can I also say been leading into this, I
definitely remember a time where there weren't Thai restaurants everywhere, right, Yeah, yeah,
And it may well be that I was young and
wasn't aware of that as a cuisine as an option,
maybe until I started working in that restaurant in my twenties,
but I'm pretty sure I'm right that. Like you know,
(17:04):
I distinctly remember going to lots of Chinese food places
growing up, and Japanese you know, hibachi type places, but
I do not remember there being nearly as many Thai
restaurants as there are today.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, this is the thing, Okay, This global popularity is
not organic, and it is not accidental. We've mentioned the
phrase a couple of times. Gastro Diplomacy is the idea
that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support,
(17:36):
and tourism dollars is not to send a military to
a foreign country. Hm, it's to go through the stomach
of the people who live there. And you nailed it
with saying that you don't remember right in your younger days,
you don't remember a bunch of Thai restaurants because this
(17:56):
gastro diplomacy of Thailand didn't really begin in until the
early two thousands. And shout out to our friend of
the show and guest Ross Bettish who persuaded us to
move our limit of ridiculous history up a little bit
the nineties. This is the two thousands.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And also a shout out to friend of the show
Alex French for taking us on a culinary journey. It's
one of my favorite restaurants and all of New York City,
which is called way La, which is a mega We've
been there a couple times together. Ben. It is a
kind of mega plused up fusionie Thai restaurant that does
(18:38):
things in a traditional way sometimes but also does some
interesting spins on it, and I find it to be
one of my favorite restaurants that I've ever been to.
So if you're ever in New York City, it's in
the Lower East Side, right on the edge of Chinatown.
Do check out Wayla. Really love those.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Guys, love them too, man. We've got to do the
story just for the respect of Alex French, writing partner
of mine on a couple of different projects, and also
I think a huge friend of ours and a friend
of the show. Noel, you use the word journey. Can
you please share our can you? Can you please share
(19:16):
our story about Alex, our buddy.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Alex definitely exercised a bit of a foodie flex when
ordering for the table. Uh that some might might look
askance that, but I think it's a it's a it's
a brilliant move and you were skeptical at first, yielded
excellent results. He just asked the delightful server to take
us on a journey.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And Nolan and I both had these what uh these
these incredible like almost telepathic uh looks at each other
when we thought, what the hell is this guy doing? Uh?
We thought the We thought the server and the staff
would be mad, but lo and behold. The guy just
(19:58):
nodded at our pal, Alex French, and then gave us
one of the most amazing meals of our lives.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, because a place like that typically the staff are
invested in the quality of the place. They are invested in,
you know, the nuances of the different dishes, and they're
proud of it. So it gives them an opportunity to
exercise a little kind of creative agency. And we were
all utterly there for it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
We were, And I've got to tell you, I don't
believe you or I could have pulled that move off
on our own. Alex French has been a long time
foodie and food critic for places like GQ, so he can.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Get away with it. He sure can. Let's see gastro
to plums. Oh, you know, this reminds me of It's
actually a pretty good companion episode to our recent exploration
of ping pong as being another kind of form of
diplomacy sport policy. I guess, right, with China and parts
of Asia sort of exporting their players and their love
(21:01):
of the game, you know, to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, I started in England.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right right, And do check out that episode that was
a banger, and I was still That was one of
the episodes where after we recorded it, I found myself
tempted to buy a table tennis kit.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah. Yeah, once I get my garage cleared out, I
may well actually do that. Currently, we should do economy fun.
It would be so much fun. Like I said, we
can definitely get our practice in with Frank and his
new table tennis. Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
And the term gastro diplomacy is so recent. I think
it was first popularized in an article by the Economists
back in two thousand and two, specifically discussing Thailand as
conspiracies go, this is wholesome and delicious. There was a
previous administration from like two thousand and one to two
(21:56):
thousand and six called the Thoscan Administration, and they launched
this program called Kitchen of the World, and they said,
we're going to treat Thai food purposely as a cultural export.
We're going to acquire soft power similar to you know,
Asiatic countries and Ping pong. We're going to do something
(22:20):
kind of like how the United States used Hollywood to
popularize American culture post World War two.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, and they put their money where their mouth was.
They you know, funded it quite heavily. In the first
couple of years. They allotted a yearly budget a five
hundred million bot to provide loans and training to Thie
nationals or people of Thai descent who wanted to start
a Thai restaurant not there in their country but abroad. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So for comparison, folks, if you know your if you
know where your ancestors are from, which not everybody does,
imagine that country, that origin country of your ancestors came
to you and said, hey, we want you to kind
(23:14):
of work for us and start a restaurant. Like Noel,
you have a Swedish heritage, correct, I think.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I was vaguely Nordic if I remember. Correct. That one
of the earliest days of ancestry dot com. So it
was a pretty underwhelming result. I think now it's more complex,
mapping of the human genome and all that stuff and
all of the new data. I'd probably get a little
bit more info if I spit a second time.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So I'm for the sake of argument, let's imagine that
you got a letter from the government of Sweden that said,
Noel Brown, as a son of Sweden, we need you
to help US with diplomacy. We want you to start
a Swedish restaurant. We're going to give you interest free loans,
(24:01):
We're going to train you to cook traditional Swedish cuisine.
As a matter of fact, we'll give you a discount
on ingredients. That's what the government of Thailand did. They
even made a certification program called Thai Select to popularize
ingredients imported from Thailand, not just making them more affordable,
(24:23):
but more available. And at the time, going back to
your earlier example, a lot of these ingredients were either
tremendously expensive or they were just stuff you had no
chance of finding outside of Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, and some of these, you know, are not the
easiest things to find today. We're really lucky here in
Atlanta to be blessed with the incredible footy corridor of
Beufford Highway where you can find things like kafir, lime
leaves and Thai chilis and stuff. But you're not always
going to find things like that at your local grocery store,
even in the international food section. Right.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And additionally, the government of Thailand uses its massive reach
to rope in high value investors domestically and abroad. They
even get this, guys. They even leveraged Thailand's aviation industry.
Thai Airways would transport these materials and this equipment abroad,
(25:25):
and then the Tourism Authority of Thailand got tapped to
emphasize how cool Thai cuisine is. They were basically going
around the planet and Madmen style making a pitch. They
would say, you can experience Thailand right in your own hometown.
This is brilliant. It leads to another program called the
(25:48):
Global Thaie Program. At this time in two thousand and two,
there are maybe five thousand, five hundred Thai restaurants in
foreign countries.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Around the world. Not that many, right, No, No, it
certainly not. I mean, you know, Chinese restaurants would be
certainly in them.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
You know what millions, I mean, there were a lot more, say,
I mean, yeah, like we know that the Chinese restaurants
have been a staple of American cuisine for many, many,
many years, and they've probably only grown. So, yeah, this
is a fraction they drop in the bucket. Yeah, and
that makes sense because there are a lot of people
of Chinese descent in the United States, right and the
(26:33):
country of China itself is huge. It's one of the
most populous countries on the planet. Thailand is very different.
A lot of people may never make it to Thailand,
a lot of people may never learn the language of Thailand.
But now it's making a splash on dinner plates, on bulls,
on palettes all the world round. They are literally winning
(26:56):
hearts and minds, and the numbers prove it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And I'm sorry, millions is absurd, but you know, in
the close to one hundred thousand according to some figures
of Chinese restaurants in the United States. So we're going
to get to how Thaie stacks up to that in
just a little bit. So the Thai government wanted to
up this number significantly from in the five hundreds to
(27:19):
around eight thousand, and by twenty eleven their efforts were
paying off, with more than ten thousand Thai restaurants located
around the world. This does not count the many more
Asian fusion restaurants like I think White Law would would
fall into that, even though they also do traditional tie
by that point, so we're not including more fusion e
type restaurants in that number.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, now we're talking about restaurants that might have a
few Thai dishes on the menu. So, like you were saying,
learning about pad Thaie, which we'll we'll get to in
a moment, because that's our that's one of our best
examples for the class.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
So there were certainly the one most people know about.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Right. Yeah, in the West, for sure, there were restaurants
that were solely Thai restaurants, and then there were many
more restaurants that were also serving Thai dishes using Thai ingredients.
And the boffins and the eggheads and the Nbas start
studying this success. Folks at the Kellogg School of Management
(28:22):
partner with Asasan Institute, and they say, holy smokes, it
turns out that Thai cuisine, because of this conspiracy, has
become one of the most recognizable cuisines on the planet.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
When people were asked what their favorite ethnic cuisine was,
typically you'd see folks talking about Italian food, French food, Chinese, Indian,
and Japanese. But suddenly Thai entered the conversation, and that
trend continues very much into the modern day. The Georgia
Political Review had this to say about the Thai food explosion.
(28:59):
Despite high people making up just zero point one percent
of the United States population, there are ten thousand Thai
restaurants across the country, making the cuisine one of the
most popular choices among Americans. Boom, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
It's there's no other way to say it. This is
a successful conspiracy. The Global Thaie program transformed this country's
cuisine from being othered and exoticized to becoming a part
of mainstream American culture. It was a clear indication of
(29:34):
gastro diplomacy at work and the at work and working
at work and working, yes, sir. Now, to be clear,
some of the most popular Thai food in the West
is a result of these programs, and the stuff you
get in your local Thai restaurant may not be exactly
(29:55):
what you would get in Thailand. I think a good
analogy would be for us to say us to go
to comic books or Marvel films. Think about government nerds
in a secret lab. They're trying to build a super
soldier dish that the locals will love. In this analogy,
(30:16):
like pad Thai is our Captain America.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Maybe a little less nefarious than the Weapon X program,
though right, I love that reference. Pad Thai is a
lot like americanized Chinese food. You know, you go to
a Chinese restaurant, and you see things like General Soa
chicken and Sessme chicken and stuff, a lot of deep
(30:41):
fried things. But if you go to more authentic Chinese restaurants,
you're not going to see those as much or as highlighted.
And if you go over to China, you're certainly not
going to see a lot of those except for places
that maybe cater to American tourists.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
M Yeah, and pad thai is really interesting because it's
kind of like jazz. You know, it's got key established ingredients, right,
canonical stuff. Typically you'll have some meat, tamarind for the sourness, palm,
sugar fish sauce, eggs, dried shrimp, garlic. You gotta have
garlic tofu peanuts, rice and roles, bean sprouts, et cetera.
(31:18):
But it is so open to interpretation that it leads
to all sorts of variations. That's why the pad thaie
we eat in Missouri or in San Francisco can taste
so incredibly different from the same dish in Singapore or
in Munich or what's that neighborhood you named in Berlin,
(31:39):
Friedrich Time or Friederic Thime or Santiago, Chile. It's nuts
and you nailed it too, because pad Thai originally is
a Chinese invention, but as there's a really strong argument
that pad thaie is.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
The it's like.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Waving the flag of Thailand. It is diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, and while you know, the jazz of it all
is going to yield different results depending on where you go,
all of the flavors are distinctly thaie and highlighting the
cuisine of Thailand, you know, without like bastardizing it in
some kind of you know, gross way.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, there's a story behind pat tai. It was mainly
despite the Chinese origin. It was mainly invented and popularized
way back in the late nineteen thirties in Thailand because
there was a rice shortage, so people wanted to promote
rice noodles. They used fifty percent less grain. It's like
(32:44):
the story of Fanta. Oh yeah, and well yeah, I
mean we talked about this.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Fanta was a direct result of shortages, wartime shortages of
certain ingredients. So they used like apple scraps to make
a type of bridge that was branded as Fanta. But
it was meant to be like a cola alternative, and
it certainly wasn't originally like the orange Fanta that we
know today. But there's just I don't know. I'm always
(33:09):
fascinated by scarcities leading to things that ultimately become something
else in and of themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Would you say you're fantinated?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I am.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh yeah, jump in, next, jump in, save me from
that pun.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
No, no, you already got the drum, but no Fanta.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
To Nor's point, Fanta was actually a creation in nineteen
forty in Nazi Germany because of embargoes, so they couldn't
get the actual Coca cola syrup in there, so they
had to create something new. Oh phonous backs, he drumm
in the knowledge just for you.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
So good there, we got you. And it's still really
popular in Europe today. I mean we have it over here,
but it's not nearly as popular as it is, you
know in say Berlin, Fata Eurovision in it can exactly
and honestly, I mean the Fanta over there hits a
little different. I don't know why. The bottles are shaped
(34:10):
a little different, and I swear the flavor is slightly
different and a little bit more refreshing. And we're not
saying that Patsai isn't fantastic. It absolutely is delicious wherever
you get it. I mean not to say that there
aren't some places that you get it where it is
bland as I'll get out, and it's not inherently a
spicy dish. But you also need to understand, or it's
(34:32):
cool to understand the backgrounds, the scarcity that led to
the creation of it as a Thai dish and the
far from accidental spreading of it as sort of a
centerpiece of typ cuisine abroad. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Back in the late nineteen thirties, the Thai Prime Minister
at the time, Plate Pibin Soulcrum. He emphasized the importance
of this dish as a a piece of nationalism, a representation.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Before the initiative that we're talking about. This was still
like them saying we need a national dish, and this
is going to be the most palatable and recognizable that
we could maybe come up with.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, it's the It's kind of like figuring out a
good hook or a good chord progression and saying you
can play all the let's send this to garage bands
across America and let them play that hook with their
own instruments and see if they dig it.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And We've got a little bit of a wartime twist
on this story as well. The pad Thai also created
a sense of Thai nationalism during World War Two as
a cheap street food option that a lot of Thai
families really relied on.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah yeah, And as a result, now the flavors and
the role of pad tie. By the way, pad just
means fried is weird because it isn't super fried.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
No it's not really, But the.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Name, the taste, the unique canonical ingredients, and the fact
that you can jazz on it makes this a dish
that connects people to Thai culture directly. And folks, we
know this may sound a little bit sketchy. This is
not our intent. We're arguing instead, it's a peak example
(36:28):
of ridiculous history. This is a country without a huge army,
without a huge navy, without tons of financial heft like
say the United Kingdom, Colonial Powers or the United States.
Somehow this country managed to become a global superstar through
(36:48):
food alone.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Strengths.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Play to your strengths. That's a great point. We also
have a great quote. I think it's obvious that we
all love Anthony bourdet or at least no, you and
I love Anthony bourdein Max Max. Do you like Anthony
Bourdin It's okay to say no.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I don't know a ton about him, but a lot
of people I like really like him.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
So he's just he's a classic bonvivance, you know. He
was a classic like dude, just going out there and
trying stuff and trying his best to live his most
authentic life. Sadly, he had an inn life that didn't
translate to the you know, version of himself that was
on TV. While seemingly very authentic, and I'm not saying
it wasn't. You never really know when people are suffering
(37:34):
in silence, and he certainly seems to be doing that.
So missed that guy. Really, we were all big fans.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Just an absolute legend, beautiful writer, a phenomenal chef as well.
And he spent a lot of time talking about Thailand.
And he noted something the government of Thailand noted when
they conspired to commit gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I'm sorry make it it sound, but that sounds like
commit mad most foul.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
No, gastro diplomacy is great. I think it's the most
delightful thing. Yeah, he clocked this universal observation food is
one of the only things that unites all human beings,
so much so that Anthony Bourdin himself once noted food
(38:30):
is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling,
but not in like the creepy way right ethnic feeling.
Your personal history, your province, your region, your tribe, your grandma.
It is inseparable from those from the get go.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
And what an amazing way to share those things with
others through flavor and actual sustenance. You know, I mean,
there's really nothing like it. It's truly a way of
sharing your cult sure and your pride and you know
your history and your heritage in a way that people
can literally stomach.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
There we go, well done. It humanizes all of us.
If you want to learn about a culture a world away,
you can read all the books you like, you can
listen to all the podcasts you love, you can watch
all the films that country has ever made. You can
study it in college or university. But as Thailand has
(39:27):
proved beyond all measure of success, if you want to
really know a place, you got to eat what they eat.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
I mean, you got to eat.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yes, this episode is technically not brought to you by Checkers.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
A slogan, but we hope it.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Made you hungry and hungry as the country or as
in the sensation. We know that other people, other nations
picked up on this concept of gastro diplomacy and soft
power or a lot of the countries that we named earlier,
they saw the success of Thailand and then they started
(40:07):
instituting similar programs.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
There's like a whole laundry list, oh for sure, Korea, Taiwan,
several Nordic nations have given it their best shot, to
varying degrees of success.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Why is Scander David?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I just don't know that it's really hit, That's all
I'm saying. It hasn't really hit the way Thai or Japanese,
you know, or even Peruvian we do. We are starting
to see, I'm not saying starting to see like it
hasn't been, you know, a thing for for some time.
But there are a lot more Peruvian restaurants, Like there's
one at the damn airport here in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Peruvian food is great. We
also see Israel getting into the game. This is a
perfect way to communicate with people past diplomatic red tape,
and with that before we Uh, before we go all
fanboy over the regional differences between cuisines of Thailand, we
(41:06):
want to hear from you. Tell us your favorite foods
to no On and wherever you find yourself in this
wide world. We'd love to hear what you think is
the top notch cuisine of your neck of the global woods.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And what spice level do you enjoy your typhoon as?
Is it mild, medium hot or tie hot right right?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Or long for long spicy which is not spicy. It's mild.
Long means foreigner. You know who doesn't like spicy food?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Who is the Germans? Oh? And me? And that's the condition.
But also, yeah, it's a bolid thing.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And I've never been to eat spicy food. I was
at a my friend's party birthday party a couple of
years ago, and I was eating some mild wings. If
my friend Rob looked at me, goes, are you ok? Max,
I'm like, I want to eat anything with spice, and
it just kills me. I'm like, with faces on, you
get the sweats, you get all blushy, and it's like
the weakest stuff possible too. It's so pathetic.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, famous, the German people are not acclimated to spicy.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Foods, another reason for us to join Noel in his
adventures over in Germany. A big, big thanks to our
super producer, mister Max mild Williams.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Indeed, huge thanks to you, Ben for this incredible research,
and also to Jonathan Strickland, the diabolical quizter that he is.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Where do you think he is on spicy food?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think he doesn't? He also have a condition.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
He does, he is deathly allergic to shellfish.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
That's it. Don't already stands on spicy food. Can't really
picture him doing a hot ones though.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Let's just prank him. We'll text him after this episode. Well,
let's put it in a work email and just not
explained the context and ask him where he's at with
spicy food. Absolutely and big thanks to our composer Alex Williams.
Big thanks to Eve's Jeff Christopher hasiotis here in spirit
(43:13):
and who else?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
No oh Man, all the hits, Rachel Big Spinach Lands,
the Red Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. Gosh, who else
we got? Oh a j Mohamas Jacobs Huzzler.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Love that guy and we love you folks. Thank you
so much for tuning in We've got a run of
more fascinating sports episodes, as well as a long awaited
food episode. We're not gonna spoil just yet, but scatter,
cover and smother yourselves.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That came out weird.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
If you know, you know, We'll see you next time. Books.
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man,
the Myth, the Legend, Max pad Tie.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Williams, Max pad see you Williams.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
May uh the good deal Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
That's a good one. I like padra Hey, there you go. Yes,
that's not on topic. Max, that's not on brand.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Max Man Williams not none other than the one and
only mister Noel Brown. They call me Ben Bullen in
various parts of the world, and Noel, I think it's
fair to say that we love thy food, right, you
love a good lie food.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I love it. Yeah, no, sorry, that wasn't really an
escalation at all, no big fan. One of my favorite
things to cook. I got my start employment wise working
in a kitchen in a restaurant in my hometown, and
they had a handful of tie things on the menu,
including a pad tie, and that's where I kind of
cut my teeth cooking, and a lot of those things
(01:36):
have served me well to this day. I love making
a green curry, veggie or meatd you know, whatever, whatever
you got I'm here for it. That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, and we hope that a lot of us tuning
in tonight also enjoy Thai food. If you have not
tried Thai cuisine, oh, friends and neighbors, you are missing out.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
What are you doing? What do you do your life?
Get out there, get into it, to a Thai restaurant,
this this instant. Put this episode on pause and come back,
and then it'll be much more fun for you.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, come back with some noodles. Come back with with
a flat noodle you like. I love a flat wide noodle.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Uh. Thailand is located in Southeast Asia, and the cuisine
of the country, Thaie cuisine or ahan Thai, is regularly
breeded as one of the best types of food on
the planet. In fact, several poles just recently found that
Thailand is the world's best country for food travel.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It just has such a vibrant mix of ingredients. You know,
you got your lime, bright flavors, you got your your
your curries, you got your spice, you got your crunch
from the peanuts, your noodles, bean sprouts, even even sometimes
you'll see basil and cilantro. It feels like such a
grab bag of ingredients from other types of world cuisines.
(03:06):
It's just it's my favorite.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
You nailed it, man, and I'm nodding like, uh, take
me to church style or take me to the watt
the temple. Here is the issue, folks. This is a
country that has historically been at a cultural crossroads, which means,
like you were saying, Noel, there's nothing quite like Ty food.
We also want to give a big shout out to
(03:31):
all of our fellow ridiculous historian heat loving gormands, including
friend of the show Matt f who regularly requests the
hottest food possible whenever you and I eat Thai food
on the road. He's like a heat seeking missile.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
That good.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, is yes, that's another thing about it, man, Hi
hot well talking about Ty We'll get there, We'll get there,
We'll get there, well, Matt Surewell, oh boy, really, here's
the thing I was thinking about this earlier.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Man.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Wherever you and I go, in our many adventures on
the road, we always find a tie restaurant. Isn't that strange?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It is? I mean it will not once we get
into the deats today, but I will tell you that
I think you know I've been spending a good amount
of time in Germany over the last few years, in
Berlin specifically, and it has some of the best Thai
food I've ever had anywhere, period, full stop. Now, I've
never been to Thailand, so reserving judgment there. But in
(04:47):
New York City, you know, Los Angeles, other parts of
the world, Berlin has it beat.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Also, folks, just to peek behind the curtain. Not to
gas you up too much, Nol, but you are pretty
big deal in Germany, and I hope that you will
agree on air to take Maxim myself with you at
some point.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Oh, I'd love to. I wouldn't say a big deal.
I was, however, once a small German boy and that
has served me well in my travels to deutsch Land.
I love it there. I love Berlin. It's got such
a vibrant, you know, music scene, and cultural scene and
culinary scene that isn't just schnitzel and donors, which are
also great, but yeah, excellent Thie and Vietnamese food there
(05:32):
in Berlin, specifically in the neighborhood of friedrich Heim friedrichs
Hein not shy Hein, Yes, yes, all.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Right, take notes, folks, write that one down and this,
This mystified us originally as we were traveling around. You
might be familiar with Germany, you might be familiar with Thailand,
and you might realize that those two countries are very
far away from each other. So why is there such
(05:59):
a strong tradition of Thai cuisine across the planet. Thailand
has a population of well less than eighty million people,
and it's not a particularly wealthy country, but Thai food
and Thai restaurants are somehow a global phenomena. If you
(06:19):
go anywhere except Antarctica, the odds are that you're going
to be pretty close.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
To a Thai restaurant one hundred percent. And this is
not for nothing. This is not for nothing. We started
asking ourselves. We put our noggets together and we said, hey,
how did this come about? How did this one relatively
small area of Asia become a dominant force in the
(06:47):
world of food? And the answer, we kid you not, folks,
is a conspiracy. I don't know what sound but what
sound cue?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Can we use?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Some sort of dump dum dumb? Perhaps, I don't know.
We leave it to mass aside, but it's true, this
is not something that would be too out of place,
and our sister shows stuff they don't want you to know,
which is now available on Netflix, two episodes a week.
Can you believe it? It's out, It's out there in
(07:18):
the world. I watched a little bit of it. It looks
really good.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
You video team that we work with here at iHeart
did a fantastic job sending us toys and lights, cameras, action,
all that kind of stuff. And it's very real now.
And the fine folks at Netflix have been really delightful
to work with. So if you're interested in seeing our
mugs plastered across the screen, do get ye to Netflix.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yes, high v fourth and toss us, toss us a light,
toss us a double like a little thumbs up or
whatever the newmen cleature is. And you know what I'm thinking.
Our video team worked so hard that they doubtlessly had
a couple of late nights, which probably meant they ordered Thai.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Food, I would like to think. So it's a very
good delivery option wherever you are, right.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's so fast, it's so versatile. Anyway, to understand how
this became a global thing and why it's part of
our ridiculous history exploration, we have to look at the
beginnings of what we call Thai food today, and Noel,
I think we would both not be surprised to learn
(08:30):
that Thai food dates back thousands and thousands of years
and has a lot in common with China.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Absolutely does. You can trace the origins of Thai food,
as you said, been back thousands of years when the
area that we now refer to as Thailand experienced a
huge influx of people from neighboring regions, including modern day China,
and just like nearly anywhere else in the world, the
folks living there worked with the available ingredients.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, yeah, And the interesting part here is that, unlike
other parts of the world, Thailand was absolutely brimming with
all kinds of tasty cool stuff, especially produce. Right Historically,
the majority of meals would feature aquatic plants or animals, herbs,
(09:22):
herbs for days. There's a great deal of biodiversity, for sure,
which lends itself to a strong tradition of regional cuisine.
And unlike some of the perhaps less hospitable climates are there.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
You go, well, yeah, yeah, for sure. What is it
called lutfisk? No, that's different. I'm talking about the shark.
The shark. That's the only way they can do it,
they's got to bury it in the ground until it Yeah,
it's interesting. No, no, no daning on Scandinavian cuisine. But
I was just recently in Denmark, and while they have
some fabulous food options, the local regional cuisine not my bag.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Denmark has has a grand tradition of Indonesian cuisine.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So Thailand, on the other hand, unlike some of those
colder and more arid regions, has an absolute embarrassment of
delightful culinary riches and has. You know, since Thailanders were
Thai landing, it was also far from isolated, surrounded by
other regions with vibrant cuisines and cultures of their own,
places like India, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, which goes back to your original point, right, because
now Thailand or the area that becomes modern day Thailand,
is amalgamating and sort of remixing all these dishes to
fit local taste, availability of ingredients. And there's also a
really interesting tradition of Buddhism, which means there's not a
(10:59):
huge emphasis on meat. And I thought you would love
this too, because you know, here in the West, we
often treat meat or your protein as the big tent item.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
PLoP it on down like a chunk. That's your big
old piece of piece of beast. There. No, they treat
it with equal import and respect as they do to
other ingredients. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so now it's like instead of meat being the
lead guitar in a song, it's an instrument that goes
into this complex kind of harmony. We've got four I
guess we could call them rough categories of traditional tie puisine.
(11:43):
And it's going to make sense when you hear.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
It, folks, especially when you combine the strong cultural influence
of Buddhism that adds to that lack of emphasis towards
meat as being the center of the attraction and ben
real quick aside, have you been watching or have you
watched Culinary Class Wars on Netflix?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I've heard of it. I haven't checked it out. Actually
I thought of you, but as you know, I'm in
a place right now where I don't get the best
Netflix choices. But it's also.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, you can know. Yeah, sometimes VPNs are not the
catch all fixer upper that they used to be. A
lot of these apps now detect you're using one, and
they will not play nice. But the thing that's so
cool about Culinary Class Wars is believe it's based in Korea,
but it has representation from all of these other types
of cuisine, from Chinese to Japanese to even like you know,
(12:38):
fusion type cuisines. And speaking of the Buddhist influence, one
thing that I learned about that maybe would be an
interesting episode on its own sometime is the culture of
temple food. There is a very specific culture around food
prepared by monks at these sacred places of worship, which
(12:59):
of course are to lean entirely vegetarian. And one of
my favorite contestants in the new season of Clinic Class Wars,
I forget her name, but she's referred to as the
Venerable and then whatever her name was, And she's this
delightful little monk and consistently kicks the butts of some
of these meat heavy dishes with her wonderful, purely vegetarian
(13:20):
and occasionally vegan offerings.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Beautiful, beautiful, and we see it often for any current
vegans or vegetarians in the crowd. I had put my
time in as a vegan in the past. I was
vegetarian for several years and I gotta tell you, vegetarian
food can slap. It's all about the sauces, it's all
(13:44):
about the spices. It's probably better for you.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
It's definitely great. I will cook vegetarian cuisine just out
of love of it, not for any kind of health reasons.
I quite often, if I'm making a Thai dish, will
leave the meat out, or if I'm making a nice chili,
will do like a meatless chili, just because so many
wonderful ingredients that have so much flavor that they can
add that are meatless. Yeah, nice papaya salad for instance, right, Yeah,
(14:11):
green papaya salad. Not to say that I don't love
a larb ben, I love a larb. I love a
lob that's like sort of like a meat salad kind
of thing with like, yeah, mince minced mincet, like pork
or beat. I think it's usually pork, and it has
lots of lime in it, and it's just such a vibrant, wonderful,
(14:31):
bright flavor.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And the fish sauce is a big deal. And I'm
glad we're mentioning salads because that's one of the primary
four loose categories of Tai cuisine. It's called yam spicy salads.
Then you got tam pounded foods, you know, with a
mortar and pestle.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That would be like a green papaya salad where you
use a mortar and pestle to smash all that stuff
up or to make to make your pastes as well.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes, yeah, just so your some thumb and stuff. Then
you have kang Those are pretty much the curries, very
heavy Indian influence. And then you have the tom boiled dishes.
This brings in soup as well. You've got deep frying,
stir frying, steaming. Those all come from Chinese culture. India
(15:18):
got there first. Weirdly enough, in fifteen eleven, European cultures
entered the menu because the Portuguese arrived and the people
of modern day Thailand just started folding in Portuguese influences
as well, similar in some.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Ways to Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, the origin story of the bond me right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Ever, sent was gonna say the same thing, which is
like got French baguettes and you know, various other more
indigenous ingredients. But it really does show the influence of
those good old colonizers. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, that's the way to see it sure, mad Hey,
we're talking about diplomacy here, gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I just figured I would set the tone.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You nailed it. You nailed it by Fred. So it's
strange because we consider all of this ancient history. In
a very real way. We could say that Thai cuisine
has been global since the sixteenth century, but it doesn't
quite answer our original question, which you've set up so
(16:27):
beautifully here, Noel, why are Thai restaurants everywhere? The answer
is gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, can I also say been leading into this, I
definitely remember a time where there weren't Thai restaurants everywhere, right, Yeah, yeah,
And it may well be that I was young and
wasn't aware of that as a cuisine as an option,
maybe until I started working in that restaurant in my twenties,
but I'm pretty sure I'm right that. Like you know,
(17:04):
I distinctly remember going to lots of Chinese food places
growing up, and Japanese you know, hibachi type places, but
I do not remember there being nearly as many Thai
restaurants as there are today.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, this is the thing, Okay, This global popularity is
not organic, and it is not accidental. We've mentioned the
phrase a couple of times. Gastro Diplomacy is the idea
that the easiest way to win hearts, minds, global support,
(17:36):
and tourism dollars is not to send a military to
a foreign country. Hm, it's to go through the stomach
of the people who live there. And you nailed it
with saying that you don't remember right in your younger days,
you don't remember a bunch of Thai restaurants because this
(17:56):
gastro diplomacy of Thailand didn't really begin in until the
early two thousands. And shout out to our friend of
the show and guest Ross Bettish who persuaded us to
move our limit of ridiculous history up a little bit
the nineties. This is the two thousands.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And also a shout out to friend of the show
Alex French for taking us on a culinary journey. It's
one of my favorite restaurants and all of New York City,
which is called way La, which is a mega We've
been there a couple times together. Ben. It is a
kind of mega plused up fusionie Thai restaurant that does
(18:38):
things in a traditional way sometimes but also does some
interesting spins on it, and I find it to be
one of my favorite restaurants that I've ever been to.
So if you're ever in New York City, it's in
the Lower East Side, right on the edge of Chinatown.
Do check out Wayla. Really love those.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Guys, love them too, man. We've got to do the
story just for the respect of Alex French, writing partner
of mine on a couple of different projects, and also
I think a huge friend of ours and a friend
of the show. Noel, you use the word journey. Can
you please share our can you? Can you please share
(19:16):
our story about Alex, our buddy.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Alex definitely exercised a bit of a foodie flex when
ordering for the table. Uh that some might might look
askance that, but I think it's a it's a it's
a brilliant move and you were skeptical at first, yielded
excellent results. He just asked the delightful server to take
us on a journey.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And Nolan and I both had these what uh these
these incredible like almost telepathic uh looks at each other
when we thought, what the hell is this guy doing? Uh?
We thought the We thought the server and the staff
would be mad, but lo and behold. The guy just
(19:58):
nodded at our pal, Alex French, and then gave us
one of the most amazing meals of our lives.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, because a place like that typically the staff are
invested in the quality of the place. They are invested in,
you know, the nuances of the different dishes, and they're
proud of it. So it gives them an opportunity to
exercise a little kind of creative agency. And we were
all utterly there for it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
We were, And I've got to tell you, I don't
believe you or I could have pulled that move off
on our own. Alex French has been a long time
foodie and food critic for places like GQ, so he can.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Get away with it. He sure can. Let's see gastro
to plums. Oh, you know, this reminds me of It's
actually a pretty good companion episode to our recent exploration
of ping pong as being another kind of form of
diplomacy sport policy. I guess, right, with China and parts
of Asia sort of exporting their players and their love
(21:01):
of the game, you know, to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, I started in England.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right right, And do check out that episode that was
a banger, and I was still That was one of
the episodes where after we recorded it, I found myself
tempted to buy a table tennis kit.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah. Yeah, once I get my garage cleared out, I
may well actually do that. Currently, we should do economy fun.
It would be so much fun. Like I said, we
can definitely get our practice in with Frank and his
new table tennis. Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
And the term gastro diplomacy is so recent. I think
it was first popularized in an article by the Economists
back in two thousand and two, specifically discussing Thailand as
conspiracies go, this is wholesome and delicious. There was a
previous administration from like two thousand and one to two
(21:56):
thousand and six called the Thoscan Administration, and they launched
this program called Kitchen of the World, and they said,
we're going to treat Thai food purposely as a cultural export.
We're going to acquire soft power similar to you know,
Asiatic countries and Ping pong. We're going to do something
(22:20):
kind of like how the United States used Hollywood to
popularize American culture post World War two.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, and they put their money where their mouth was.
They you know, funded it quite heavily. In the first
couple of years. They allotted a yearly budget a five
hundred million bot to provide loans and training to Thie
nationals or people of Thai descent who wanted to start
a Thai restaurant not there in their country but abroad. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So for comparison, folks, if you know your if you
know where your ancestors are from, which not everybody does,
imagine that country, that origin country of your ancestors came
to you and said, hey, we want you to kind
(23:14):
of work for us and start a restaurant. Like Noel,
you have a Swedish heritage, correct, I think.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I was vaguely Nordic if I remember. Correct. That one
of the earliest days of ancestry dot com. So it
was a pretty underwhelming result. I think now it's more complex,
mapping of the human genome and all that stuff and
all of the new data. I'd probably get a little
bit more info if I spit a second time.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So I'm for the sake of argument, let's imagine that
you got a letter from the government of Sweden that said,
Noel Brown, as a son of Sweden, we need you
to help US with diplomacy. We want you to start
a Swedish restaurant. We're going to give you interest free loans,
(24:01):
We're going to train you to cook traditional Swedish cuisine.
As a matter of fact, we'll give you a discount
on ingredients. That's what the government of Thailand did. They
even made a certification program called Thai Select to popularize
ingredients imported from Thailand, not just making them more affordable,
(24:23):
but more available. And at the time, going back to
your earlier example, a lot of these ingredients were either
tremendously expensive or they were just stuff you had no
chance of finding outside of Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, and some of these, you know, are not the
easiest things to find today. We're really lucky here in
Atlanta to be blessed with the incredible footy corridor of
Beufford Highway where you can find things like kafir, lime
leaves and Thai chilis and stuff. But you're not always
going to find things like that at your local grocery store,
even in the international food section. Right.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And additionally, the government of Thailand uses its massive reach
to rope in high value investors domestically and abroad. They
even get this, guys. They even leveraged Thailand's aviation industry.
Thai Airways would transport these materials and this equipment abroad,
(25:25):
and then the Tourism Authority of Thailand got tapped to
emphasize how cool Thai cuisine is. They were basically going
around the planet and Madmen style making a pitch. They
would say, you can experience Thailand right in your own hometown.
This is brilliant. It leads to another program called the
(25:48):
Global Thaie Program. At this time in two thousand and two,
there are maybe five thousand, five hundred Thai restaurants in
foreign countries.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Around the world. Not that many, right, No, No, it
certainly not. I mean, you know, Chinese restaurants would be
certainly in them.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
You know what millions, I mean, there were a lot more, say,
I mean, yeah, like we know that the Chinese restaurants
have been a staple of American cuisine for many, many,
many years, and they've probably only grown. So, yeah, this
is a fraction they drop in the bucket. Yeah, and
that makes sense because there are a lot of people
of Chinese descent in the United States, right and the
(26:33):
country of China itself is huge. It's one of the
most populous countries on the planet. Thailand is very different.
A lot of people may never make it to Thailand,
a lot of people may never learn the language of Thailand.
But now it's making a splash on dinner plates, on bulls,
on palettes all the world round. They are literally winning
(26:56):
hearts and minds, and the numbers prove it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And I'm sorry, millions is absurd, but you know, in
the close to one hundred thousand according to some figures
of Chinese restaurants in the United States. So we're going
to get to how Thaie stacks up to that in
just a little bit. So the Thai government wanted to
up this number significantly from in the five hundreds to
(27:19):
around eight thousand, and by twenty eleven their efforts were
paying off, with more than ten thousand Thai restaurants located
around the world. This does not count the many more
Asian fusion restaurants like I think White Law would would
fall into that, even though they also do traditional tie
by that point, so we're not including more fusion e
type restaurants in that number.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, now we're talking about restaurants that might have a
few Thai dishes on the menu. So, like you were saying,
learning about pad Thaie, which we'll we'll get to in
a moment, because that's our that's one of our best
examples for the class.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
So there were certainly the one most people know about.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Right. Yeah, in the West, for sure, there were restaurants
that were solely Thai restaurants, and then there were many
more restaurants that were also serving Thai dishes using Thai ingredients.
And the boffins and the eggheads and the Nbas start
studying this success. Folks at the Kellogg School of Management
(28:22):
partner with Asasan Institute, and they say, holy smokes, it
turns out that Thai cuisine, because of this conspiracy, has
become one of the most recognizable cuisines on the planet.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
When people were asked what their favorite ethnic cuisine was,
typically you'd see folks talking about Italian food, French food, Chinese, Indian,
and Japanese. But suddenly Thai entered the conversation, and that
trend continues very much into the modern day. The Georgia
Political Review had this to say about the Thai food explosion.
(28:59):
Despite high people making up just zero point one percent
of the United States population, there are ten thousand Thai
restaurants across the country, making the cuisine one of the
most popular choices among Americans. Boom, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
It's there's no other way to say it. This is
a successful conspiracy. The Global Thaie program transformed this country's
cuisine from being othered and exoticized to becoming a part
of mainstream American culture. It was a clear indication of
(29:34):
gastro diplomacy at work and the at work and working
at work and working, yes, sir. Now, to be clear,
some of the most popular Thai food in the West
is a result of these programs, and the stuff you
get in your local Thai restaurant may not be exactly
(29:55):
what you would get in Thailand. I think a good
analogy would be for us to say us to go
to comic books or Marvel films. Think about government nerds
in a secret lab. They're trying to build a super
soldier dish that the locals will love. In this analogy,
(30:16):
like pad Thai is our Captain America.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Maybe a little less nefarious than the Weapon X program,
though right, I love that reference. Pad Thai is a
lot like americanized Chinese food. You know, you go to
a Chinese restaurant, and you see things like General Soa
chicken and Sessme chicken and stuff, a lot of deep
(30:41):
fried things. But if you go to more authentic Chinese restaurants,
you're not going to see those as much or as highlighted.
And if you go over to China, you're certainly not
going to see a lot of those except for places
that maybe cater to American tourists.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
M Yeah, and pad thai is really interesting because it's
kind of like jazz. You know, it's got key established ingredients, right,
canonical stuff. Typically you'll have some meat, tamarind for the sourness, palm,
sugar fish sauce, eggs, dried shrimp, garlic. You gotta have
garlic tofu peanuts, rice and roles, bean sprouts, et cetera.
(31:18):
But it is so open to interpretation that it leads
to all sorts of variations. That's why the pad thaie
we eat in Missouri or in San Francisco can taste
so incredibly different from the same dish in Singapore or
in Munich or what's that neighborhood you named in Berlin,
(31:39):
Friedrich Time or Friederic Thime or Santiago, Chile. It's nuts
and you nailed it too, because pad Thai originally is
a Chinese invention, but as there's a really strong argument
that pad thaie is.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
The it's like.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Waving the flag of Thailand. It is diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, and while you know, the jazz of it all
is going to yield different results depending on where you go,
all of the flavors are distinctly thaie and highlighting the
cuisine of Thailand, you know, without like bastardizing it in
some kind of you know, gross way.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, there's a story behind pat tai. It was mainly
despite the Chinese origin. It was mainly invented and popularized
way back in the late nineteen thirties in Thailand because
there was a rice shortage, so people wanted to promote
rice noodles. They used fifty percent less grain. It's like
(32:44):
the story of Fanta. Oh yeah, and well yeah, I
mean we talked about this.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Fanta was a direct result of shortages, wartime shortages of
certain ingredients. So they used like apple scraps to make
a type of bridge that was branded as Fanta. But
it was meant to be like a cola alternative, and
it certainly wasn't originally like the orange Fanta that we
know today. But there's just I don't know. I'm always
(33:09):
fascinated by scarcities leading to things that ultimately become something
else in and of themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Would you say you're fantinated?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I am.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh yeah, jump in, next, jump in, save me from
that pun.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
No, no, you already got the drum, but no Fanta.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
To Nor's point, Fanta was actually a creation in nineteen
forty in Nazi Germany because of embargoes, so they couldn't
get the actual Coca cola syrup in there, so they
had to create something new. Oh phonous backs, he drumm
in the knowledge just for you.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
So good there, we got you. And it's still really
popular in Europe today. I mean we have it over here,
but it's not nearly as popular as it is, you
know in say Berlin, Fata Eurovision in it can exactly
and honestly, I mean the Fanta over there hits a
little different. I don't know why. The bottles are shaped
(34:10):
a little different, and I swear the flavor is slightly
different and a little bit more refreshing. And we're not
saying that Patsai isn't fantastic. It absolutely is delicious wherever
you get it. I mean not to say that there
aren't some places that you get it where it is
bland as I'll get out, and it's not inherently a
spicy dish. But you also need to understand, or it's
(34:32):
cool to understand the backgrounds, the scarcity that led to
the creation of it as a Thai dish and the
far from accidental spreading of it as sort of a
centerpiece of typ cuisine abroad. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Back in the late nineteen thirties, the Thai Prime Minister
at the time, Plate Pibin Soulcrum. He emphasized the importance
of this dish as a a piece of nationalism, a representation.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Before the initiative that we're talking about. This was still
like them saying we need a national dish, and this
is going to be the most palatable and recognizable that
we could maybe come up with.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, it's the It's kind of like figuring out a
good hook or a good chord progression and saying you
can play all the let's send this to garage bands
across America and let them play that hook with their
own instruments and see if they dig it.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And We've got a little bit of a wartime twist
on this story as well. The pad Thai also created
a sense of Thai nationalism during World War Two as
a cheap street food option that a lot of Thai
families really relied on.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah yeah, And as a result, now the flavors and
the role of pad tie. By the way, pad just
means fried is weird because it isn't super fried.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
No it's not really, But the.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Name, the taste, the unique canonical ingredients, and the fact
that you can jazz on it makes this a dish
that connects people to Thai culture directly. And folks, we
know this may sound a little bit sketchy. This is
not our intent. We're arguing instead, it's a peak example
(36:28):
of ridiculous history. This is a country without a huge army,
without a huge navy, without tons of financial heft like
say the United Kingdom, Colonial Powers or the United States.
Somehow this country managed to become a global superstar through
(36:48):
food alone.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Strengths.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Play to your strengths. That's a great point. We also
have a great quote. I think it's obvious that we
all love Anthony bourdet or at least no, you and
I love Anthony bourdein Max Max. Do you like Anthony
Bourdin It's okay to say no.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I don't know a ton about him, but a lot
of people I like really like him.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
So he's just he's a classic bonvivance, you know. He
was a classic like dude, just going out there and
trying stuff and trying his best to live his most
authentic life. Sadly, he had an inn life that didn't
translate to the you know, version of himself that was
on TV. While seemingly very authentic, and I'm not saying
it wasn't. You never really know when people are suffering
(37:34):
in silence, and he certainly seems to be doing that.
So missed that guy. Really, we were all big fans.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Just an absolute legend, beautiful writer, a phenomenal chef as well.
And he spent a lot of time talking about Thailand.
And he noted something the government of Thailand noted when
they conspired to commit gastro diplomacy.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I'm sorry make it it sound, but that sounds like
commit mad most foul.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
No, gastro diplomacy is great. I think it's the most
delightful thing. Yeah, he clocked this universal observation food is
one of the only things that unites all human beings,
so much so that Anthony Bourdin himself once noted food
(38:30):
is everything we are. It's an extension of nationalist feeling,
but not in like the creepy way right ethnic feeling.
Your personal history, your province, your region, your tribe, your grandma.
It is inseparable from those from the get go.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
And what an amazing way to share those things with
others through flavor and actual sustenance. You know, I mean,
there's really nothing like it. It's truly a way of
sharing your cult sure and your pride and you know
your history and your heritage in a way that people
can literally stomach.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
There we go, well done. It humanizes all of us.
If you want to learn about a culture a world away,
you can read all the books you like, you can
listen to all the podcasts you love, you can watch
all the films that country has ever made. You can
study it in college or university. But as Thailand has
(39:27):
proved beyond all measure of success, if you want to
really know a place, you got to eat what they eat.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
I mean, you got to eat.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yes, this episode is technically not brought to you by Checkers.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
A slogan, but we hope it.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Made you hungry and hungry as the country or as
in the sensation. We know that other people, other nations
picked up on this concept of gastro diplomacy and soft
power or a lot of the countries that we named earlier,
they saw the success of Thailand and then they started
(40:07):
instituting similar programs.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
There's like a whole laundry list, oh for sure, Korea, Taiwan,
several Nordic nations have given it their best shot, to
varying degrees of success.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Why is Scander David?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I just don't know that it's really hit, That's all
I'm saying. It hasn't really hit the way Thai or Japanese,
you know, or even Peruvian we do. We are starting
to see, I'm not saying starting to see like it
hasn't been, you know, a thing for for some time.
But there are a lot more Peruvian restaurants, Like there's
one at the damn airport here in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Peruvian food is great. We
also see Israel getting into the game. This is a
perfect way to communicate with people past diplomatic red tape,
and with that before we Uh, before we go all
fanboy over the regional differences between cuisines of Thailand, we
(41:06):
want to hear from you. Tell us your favorite foods
to no On and wherever you find yourself in this
wide world. We'd love to hear what you think is
the top notch cuisine of your neck of the global woods.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And what spice level do you enjoy your typhoon as?
Is it mild, medium hot or tie hot right right?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Or long for long spicy which is not spicy. It's mild.
Long means foreigner. You know who doesn't like spicy food?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Who is the Germans? Oh? And me? And that's the condition.
But also, yeah, it's a bolid thing.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And I've never been to eat spicy food. I was
at a my friend's party birthday party a couple of
years ago, and I was eating some mild wings. If
my friend Rob looked at me, goes, are you ok? Max,
I'm like, I want to eat anything with spice, and
it just kills me. I'm like, with faces on, you
get the sweats, you get all blushy, and it's like
the weakest stuff possible too. It's so pathetic.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, famous, the German people are not acclimated to spicy.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Foods, another reason for us to join Noel in his
adventures over in Germany. A big, big thanks to our
super producer, mister Max mild Williams.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Indeed, huge thanks to you, Ben for this incredible research,
and also to Jonathan Strickland, the diabolical quizter that he is.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Where do you think he is on spicy food?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think he doesn't? He also have a condition.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
He does, he is deathly allergic to shellfish.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
That's it. Don't already stands on spicy food. Can't really
picture him doing a hot ones though.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Let's just prank him. We'll text him after this episode. Well,
let's put it in a work email and just not
explained the context and ask him where he's at with
spicy food. Absolutely and big thanks to our composer Alex Williams.
Big thanks to Eve's Jeff Christopher hasiotis here in spirit
(43:13):
and who else?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
No oh Man, all the hits, Rachel Big Spinach Lands,
the Red Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. Gosh, who else
we got? Oh a j Mohamas Jacobs Huzzler.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Love that guy and we love you folks. Thank you
so much for tuning in We've got a run of
more fascinating sports episodes, as well as a long awaited
food episode. We're not gonna spoil just yet, but scatter,
cover and smother yourselves.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
That came out weird.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
If you know, you know, We'll see you next time. Books.
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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