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May 27, 2020 32 mins

Everything has shifted--the economy, our culture, the way we spend our time and move through our day-to-day lives. Today we’re talking with bestselling author Daniel Pink (When, Drive) about how to maintain a modicum of control during such systemic upheavals. @DanielPink

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Key fact. Our brain power doesn't remain constant over the
quarters of the day. It changes, It changes in material ways.
And if you just ignore that, you're gonna underperform. If
you respect that, you can actually make better choices about
when to do things. Thanks for joining us on the

(00:32):
Road to Somewhere where we talk about exploration, adventure, major
life change, and transformation. It's about not necessarily knowing where
we're going, but having faith that the journey will be worthwhile.
I'm Lisa Os, I'm chill Herzig. Today we are going
to talk about motivation. We have our caffeine, we have
our cappuccinos. We're ready to talk about motivation. Um. When

(00:54):
I talk about motivation, and I'm being honest, I always
have to acknowledge that fear is a big part of
what moves me forward. UM. And I'm working partly because
this podcast seems to reinforce constantly that fear is not
the thing to fall back on. I'm working really hard
to get motivated by other things. But what what does

(01:15):
it for you? What bounces out so fascinating that you
respond to fear by working? Because I am paralyzed by fear,
and my response to fear is quit like stay in bed.
There's a nice soft bed. The covers go all the
way up over my eactly like you're going to fail this.
I mean, I'm I'm still using the exam. But the

(01:38):
exam thing is always where it's doing. It is still working,
it still has its clutches on us. The exam. Yes,
your exam that you studied perfectly for and handed in
with a bow, and mine that's still somewhere and a
typewriter in a garbage sheep. But thankfully, thankfully we have

(01:59):
someone who may help us on this journey of fear performance.
I guess yes, um. Daniel Pink is the best selling
author of six books about human behavior, work and creativity,
including Drive to Sell as Human, A Whole New Mind
and When Daniel thanks so much for being with us today.
It's a pleasure to be with you. So Okay, I'm

(02:19):
not fearful. I'm not fearful at all about anything. You
don't look nervus. Well, I'm not fearful of you. There
are plenty of things that I'm fearful to help us
out here with motivation, because clearly we respond differently, we
have different motivational triggers. I don't think we're unique in
this uh predicament. No, human beings are complex. Human beings

(02:41):
have a mix of motivations, and so to say that
we're motivated by a single thing isn't right. The science
doesn't tell us that. Um. Motivation is in some ways layered,
and different kinds of motivations lead to different kinds of behavior.
So let's talk about this. So human beings are motivated
by biological urges, right, We rink when we're thirsty, we

(03:01):
eat when we're hungry, We have sex to satisfy those
kinds of urges, and so human beings have biological allergies,
no question about that. Obviously it's self evident. But we
would never think that human beings are only their biological allergies, right,
maybe a few. I have seventeen year old sons, so
that might be might be big, but beyond but beyond
but beyond that, um, you know, we we were more

(03:23):
complex than that. And here's the thing. We respond to
rewards and punishments in our environment, and so in general,
in many cases, if you reward behavior, you will get
more of that behavior. If you punish behavior, you get
more of that behavior. And I would put fear into
that second category. I would put what you was talking about.
The fear is like basically an external, something external that

(03:45):
is shaping our behavior. And there is no question that
human beings respond to those kinds of things. So let's
call that our second drive. But we also have a
third drive and our third drive, which I think we
neglect a lot of times. And in some ways what
your show is about is is a way certain missing
that their drive, which is that we do things because
we like it. We do things because it brings us joy.

(04:07):
We do things because here's one that we always overlook,
because it's the right thing to do. We do things
because it connects us to other people and fosters a
sense of belonging. We do things because they contribute to
the world. We do things because they're fun. And so
we have to look at we have to take that
three dimensional view of human beings and recognize we have

(04:28):
all three of these kinds of drives. Rather than say,
human beings are only you know, mice and mazes who
respond to you know, attractive cheese or unattractive chees or
human beings are you know human beings only you know?
It's like it's all about either fear or greed. Those
are the only motive. And it's just not it's not
fundamentally true. But a lot of what you talk about
in your book is the fact that our institutions are

(04:49):
set up two just do the carrot stick thing, just
you know, lure us with more money or punish us
with less money or getting fired something like that. Absolutely, absolutely,
and and that's a that's a that's a great point.
And I want to pick up on your on your
on your your your point about fear because it's actually
helpful in understanding what's going on here. So here's the

(05:10):
way that here's here's a way to look at it.
Fear is a very very useful motivator. It really is.
It's a very very useful motivator because fear is an
emotion that narrows our focus. Okay, and so this is
why the reason that we for their evolutionary reasons, why
we experience fear. People who are incapable of experiencing fear

(05:30):
have not made it to today because they died, right
And so you know, so fear is a very so
fear is a narrowing motivator, and so fear is a
great motivator for getting out of a burning building, right,
or for protecting your kid from you know, uh, an
angry animal. You know, you know. So it's a great motivator.
It's a narrowing motivator. And so when we think about this,

(05:53):
there's some motivators that narrow our focus and some motivators
that widen our focus. All right, And so what we
here's what we know when we think about carrots and sticks. Right,
forget about the reward of the punishment. I like to
call those rewards. What psychologists do is call those rewards
controlling contingent motivators. Too many syllables for me, I like

(06:15):
to call I like to call them if then rewards
as and if you do this, then you get that.
If you do this, then you get that. Here's what
fifty years of social science tells us, not about all rewards,
but about if then rewards. If then rewards are great.
They work very well for simple tasks with short time horizons.
And the reason for that goes exactly to exactly to

(06:37):
Jail's To Jail's point, human beings love rewards. We love them,
we love them, we love them, we love them, we
love them. Yes, I mean we can get addicted, right,
it's a it's an interesting point. I mean, I think
there is so. I think there is something both both
psychologically and perhaps even physiologically akin to addiction. I think

(06:58):
that's a really really interesting I think it's a really
interesting point. And so if you dangle money in front
of me, if you say, hey, you know, Dan, if
you um, if you tell a funny joke or no
better at let's do something simpler, so so work. So
if you say, Dan, if you stand on your chair
on your desk on one leg for three minutes, we'll

(07:19):
give you five bucks, I'm totally there. I would totally
do that right, and I would be very focused on
that task. Why because rewards contingent rewards narrow our focus
in the same way that fear narrows our focus. And
that's very good for certain kinds of things, for simple task.
But let's say if you want to do something creative,

(07:39):
let's say we want to invent an entirely new kind
of podcast. Let's say we want to come up with
a product or service that the world didn't know it
was missing. You don't want to take an expand a
narrow view of that. You want an expansive view. You're
not going to solve a creative problem by focusing on
it narrowly. You're not going to come up with a
great new idea by being in that fearful crap want

(08:00):
to maybe spend Maybe this keys into our theme of change.
I mean, you're not going to find a creative solution
to feeling stuck or feeling so how do you motivate
yourself to perform with a widened focus? Well, what you
have to do then is you have to be in now.
I don't want to put all the owners on individuals

(08:20):
here at least because we were talking about because the
individuals exist in situations, and they exist in certain kinds
of environments. And as you guys were talking about before,
there are many institutions, let's say, schools, many companies that
are fixated on those if then rewards, and so what
they should be doing is creating conditions where people can
be that take that more expansive you. And what that

(08:42):
means is providing a set of conditions that go like this.
So let's take it at work. First of all, you've
got to pay people fairly. You're not gonna you're not
gonna you're not gonna get motivation at work if people
are being treated unfairly. The answer when when I you know,
we'll probably talk about intrinsic motivators here in a moment.
The fact that human beings have intrinsic motivators, the fact
that we have this third drive that we were talking about,

(09:03):
does not mean that people don't care about money. Of course,
people care about money. You can't say I don't want
some boss listening to this and saying, oh wow, these
three do these three people say that that intrinsic motivators
are really the ones that matter most. This is awesome.
I can, you know, scrimp on salary and re compensate
my people and units of bliss no sense, that's crap,
that's total crap. You So you have to so an organizations.

(09:26):
You have to pay people fairly, have to pay people enough.
At some level, you have to take the issue of
money off the table. Once you do that, to at
least's question. You want to give people a sense of autonomy,
some control over what they do, how they do it,
when they do it. When people have this sense of sovereignty,
and this is part of this is part of what
inspires people to change. In some cases, they feel to control,

(09:48):
They feel like they don't have sovereignty over what they're doing,
and so they see they to slip those um shackles
in a sense, so sense of autonomy. People want to
get better at something that matters. We can call that mastery,
So getting better at something that matters, making progress. And
also purpose. We have completely undersould purpose as a motivator,
like why am I doing this in the first place?

(10:08):
Why does it even matter? And when you treat people
fairly and give them the autonomy, master and purpose, the
evidence is pretty clear that they're gonna do better now.
It doesn't happen instantly, and we can talk more about,
you know, change and how to use these things for
behavior change. But but but that's really the that's really
the recipe. It takes a three dimensional view of human beings.

(10:29):
So when we come back, we are going to talk
about change and how we use these things to motivate
people to change. Okay, before the break, we just touched
on intrinsic motivators and Daniel Pink had thrown out their

(10:52):
teas on how we can use those for change, and
that's what we're this is what we're here for, So
help us out here. Yeah, I mean, I I am
so with you that companies need to, you know, pay
people fairly, give them freedom, give them autonomy, let them,
let them get good at stuff. But what do you
do as an individual when you're when you're managing yourself. Yeah,

(11:15):
it's it's it could be. It can be challenging because
it's very hard to disentangle the person from the situation.
And so, but but we can, we can, we can
try to do that. So let's so. So one of
the most important things is to is to look for
on any of these dimensions, to look for small winds. Right.
I think that in some ways when we come when

(11:36):
we think about individual change, and when we think about
even institutional change, we have been deluded a little bit
by this notion of moonshots and big, hairy, audacious goals,
and you know, and when in fact, if if you
look at the ground truth of how people change or
how institutions change, it's usually through small winds, small change,

(11:59):
at least those another small change which leads to another
small change that retrospectively, you say, holy smokes. If I mean,
I'm from Ohio, so I said, you say, you look back,
and you say, holy smokes. This is actually a big,
big change. So I think that one step on an
individual is to look for a small win. Don't ask
yourself can I change everything? Because you can't ask yourself,

(12:22):
can I change one thing in my midst that will
make things better? And the answer to that question is
you all almost always can. Yeah. I think that's really true.
I also think that reflection is part of that as well.
You can say this is the win I'm going for,
and I think I can do it, and then you
do it. But then you have to spend some time saying,
look what I did. Okay, sometimes I speed right, that's

(12:47):
that part, you know, But this is such there's some
really really good research on that particular point, and I
think it's actually one of the most important pieces of
research in the last twenty years dealing with a big
basically dealing with beginning with talent. It's the work of
Teresa Amabulae at Harvard Business School. And what she did
is is she did UM. She got several hundred people

(13:09):
at organization all All America, I think all North American,
at least like eight or nine companies and nonprofits, and
she had them UM agree to receive an email at
the end of every day, and the email said how
is your day to day? Were you motivated or not motivated?
And why? Okay, So every single day people would respond
by email saying I was motivated because of this, I

(13:29):
was not motivated because of that. Um. And that's a
very good measure because if you say to me, if
you say to me, literally seriously, if you say to me,
how is your week last week? As I think about
this right now, I literally cannot remember what happened last okay.
So so I'm not gonna be I mean, I'll figure
it out eventually, but at the moment, I'm completely clueless
about what even happened last week. But if you asked

(13:51):
me at the end of today it was today a
good day or bad day, I know immediately. So she
she compiles this stuff for more than a year, so hundreds.
She ended up with basically twelve thousand daily diary juries
of people's day to day motivation. It's a massive piece
of research. She found the single biggest motivator day to
day at work was making progress in meaningful work. The
days people were making progress with the days that they

(14:13):
were motivated. However, to your point, we often don't know
when we're making progress because we don't take a moment
to reflect or memorialize the progress that we're making. And
this is why, like I'm a big fan of I mean,
this is not a great term of what I like
to call progress rituals, and what I've been doing for
years based on Theresa Module's work, is that at the

(14:36):
end of every day, I will I actually, at the
end of every day, I will take literally sixty seconds
sometimes si literally sixty second, I mean, honestly, no more
than that to memorialize what I got done today. So
there's a there's a surface, it's it costs money, there's
there was a free version of it called I've Done this,

(14:59):
which will send you an email at the end of
every day saying what do you get done today? And
you respond to that email and it records it for you.
And so at the end of every day, I will
record what I got done today, and that gives me,
as Jillie is saying, in that moment of reflection, and
it's like WHOA, Okay, I did get something done today.

(15:20):
And what you find is that if making progress is
a single day to day motivator, people need information, they
need feedback, they need reflection in order to know that
they're making progress, and so that that progress ritually is
super important, especially when you're going especially when you're looking
for small wins and you're not going to change everything
all at once. Between the motivation and that progress that

(15:44):
you can write about. For for me and for I'm
sure some listeners out there, there's that gap of action.
So it's it's not necessarily a lack of motivation, but
the cloud of procrastination. It's like, I want to she's something.
The motivation is all there, but the the connection between
motivation and action is missing. How do we How did

(16:07):
those of us who are not are not good actors?
I mean that, I mean you've you've you've identified at
a deeper sense, Lisa, like, what might be the biggest
problem bedeviling large organization, which is what's which is what's
known as the knowing doing gap. Okay, we know what
to do, we just don't do it. And so the

(16:29):
way to cross that's a very very complicated problem to solve.
At the individual level. What you're talking about in some
levels is procrastination or basically feeling that you want to
do something but not necessarily doing it. And so there's
a lot of research on procrastination. One of the things
I just I want to defend procrastination for a moment here.

(16:50):
It's such an underdog. Let's let's let's stick up for it.
Not not all procrastination is inherently bad. It really is
that there's some research showing that actually kinds of procrastination
server purpose. It's a signal to yourself that you're still
incubating the idea that you're not quite ready to Thirty
years is a little bit longer than average. Let's put

(17:11):
it that way. So here's what so, so, so so
the But again, the research on small wins gets us there.
One of the things that you can do, you can
you can trick yourself. And I'll give you a really
good technique for this. You basically just trick yourself and say, okay,
let me give you an example. Um let's say that
I said, you know what I You know, I love fiction,

(17:32):
and you know I've been writing this other stuff. But
what I really always want to do is write a
short story. I just and and I never get around
to it. So how do I solve that? How do
I sell that problem? Here's what I do? I say
to myself. I tricked myself and say, you know what,
this afternoon, you know, after this interview, I'm gonna take
ten minutes, that's it, ten minutes and right, and start

(17:56):
writing a short story. I might have one sentence, I
might have four words, just that ten minutes. Right. Then
I come back the next day, maybe another ten minutes,
maybe the next day another ten minutes. And you begin
to trick yourself into you give yourself that feeling of
accomplishment from those ten limps, those ten those ten minutes
can sometimes be greater than the feeling of of of yeah,

(18:23):
well the the okay, let's let's just let's let's just
be revealed. Okay. I love watching sports highlights, okay, And
and so it's obviously as a writer, it's more productive
for me to write than to watch sports highlights. But
watching sports highlights brings me some amount of pleasure. Right.
But so what I have to do is I have
to teach myself that that ten even that ten minutes

(18:44):
of writing is ultimately more pleasurable, more enjoyable than that
than watching sports higlights. But you have to start. You
have to start small. You don't say, okay, you know
what thing called the Palmadoro technique exactly. This is where
I was, This is where I was going. But but
have you used that? Um No. It's stuck in my

(19:06):
mind though, because it's so cute. But it's named after
it's named after that kitchen timer that looks like a
tomato and it's an Italian gizmo, so it's called a Pomodoro,
and I guess every Italian kitchen has it, and you're
basically just supposed to set it to ten minutes and
that and and then do your thing, do the thing
that's paralyzing or intimidating or whatever. The Pomodora technique is that, right, absolutely,

(19:31):
The pomadoor technique, which is which is again Italian word
for tomato is pomadoro, so the Italian is so all
it is is you set a timer to do for whatever,
you know, let's call it ten minutes, and you just
don't do anything else, is do that task for ten minutes.
I I think what Pomadora technique is one of the
most brilliant and evidence based productivity You know, we're a

(19:54):
washing all these like productivity hacks and all this kind
of bs. That one is actually one of the smartest
and most evidence based things that we have. And and
here's the thing. It's like, it's like the guy who
just passed away a little bit ago, the hair Club
for men guys like I'm all, I used the Pomadora
technique myself. Um I even I'll tell you what I
wrote this book when I even thanked the founder of

(20:16):
the Pounder of Podora in my acknowledgements because it was
so helpful in getting that getting that done well. When
we come back, I want to talk more about when

(20:37):
we were talking about the Palmadoro technique, which is a timer,
but I want to talk about timing because your new
book is when the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. How
important is timing? It's husually important. We just don't take it.
We just don't take it seriously enough. Um So, I mean,
at a deep level, it's because human beings are temporal creatures.

(20:58):
We we have when we talk a lot about the
biological clock, but what we know from molecular biology and
other sciences is that human beings have biological clocks basically
in every cell in their body. So you and I
are all we're walking time pieces. We're moving through time, right,
our interview began in the past, it's gone. It hasn't
ended yet because that's in the future. So so um,

(21:20):
and what happens is is that in our work and
our lives, we often take very seriously what we're gonna do.
We have I mean, here, we got it to do
list here, right, we do? We take that very seriously.
We inside of companies, we we take very seriously. Who
does stuff? We have an HR department, we have education

(21:42):
and training. How is how to do? So when we
talk about when we do things, we think it doesn't matter.
And there's a stile of evidence showing that when we
do things matters, both in terms of um, the unit
of a day, but also how beginnings affect us, how
endings affect us on midpoints affect us. All right, so
when is the right time it? Does everybody have to

(22:03):
determine that individually? Well, yes, and no, here's what's here's okay,
let's sake, let's take the unit. Well, sometimes you don't
have full control all the time. Let's let's take the
unit of a day. Okay, So so let's just make
this simpler. Here's what we know. Human beings tend to
move through the day in three stages. There's a peak,

(22:25):
there's a trough, there's a recovery. Now it gets complicated
because not everybody is the same. There's something important called
a chronotype. It's an idea that comes from the world
of chronobiology. Some people say, I'm warning person, I'm an
evening person. All right, it sounds like folklore. It's not.
Chronobiologists have won the Nobel Prize in medicine. Here's what
we know of us. Inherently early people, we naturally wake

(22:49):
up early and go to sleep early. Of us are
inherently late people. Were owls go to sleep late, wake
up late, and about two thirds of us are in
are in the middle, and over simplify things a bit,
what we know is about eighty percent of us are
either of you night Owls naturally wake up later and
go to sleep late. Okay, so we'll neglect the night
ols because they get neglected all the time. I'm only

(23:11):
good for Netflix at night. Basically, So about eighty percent
of us moved through the day in this order peak, early, trough,
in the middle, recovery late in the day. And here's
what we know. During that peak period, which is for
most people is early in the day, that's when we're
most vigilant. That's when we're most vigilant. And what does
vigilance means. Vigilance means you're able to bat away distractions,

(23:33):
and so that makes there's a lot of reds AArch
showing that the peak that that that peak period, which
for eighty percent of us is early in the day.
For night owls, it's later in the day. For night owls,
it's when you're watching Netflix. It's eight o'clock at night,
not o'clock at night. When you say early in the day,
you're not early risers like, oh six am, I gotta
get in my not we don't, don't. We don't have
that level of granularity. Basically, you have that you have

(23:56):
to figure out for yourself. So sometime before midnight, well,
I mean early in the day typically means morning. But
it's like the the idea again, it's like a lot
of this productivity hacked nonsense, like everybody, did you get
about four thirty No, But what it shows is that
most of us um have do better at certain kinds

(24:19):
of tasks, tasks that require vigilance early in the day.
So vigilance would mean things that where you have to
bat away distractions, um writing, analyzing data, going through the
steps of a strategy. Okay, so then early to mid afternoon.
What you see across all kinds of different measures is
early mid afternoon declines in mood, big time, big declines

(24:42):
in performance, big declines in performance. So you see it
in I'll give you one quick study here out of Denmark.
Denmark has national standardized tests, and the students take the
tests on computers. The typical Danish school has more students
than computers, so everybody can't take the test at the
same time on So what the Danes did is they
randomly assigned these kids to take the test at different

(25:05):
times a day. Some took it early, something took it late.
The kids who took the test in the afternoon scored
as if they missed two weeks of school. The randomly Yeah,
and you see this with a whole even the were teenagers.
They're supposed to be well in the morning. Let's get
let's let's let's get to that, and let's get to
that in a moment. This is this your great point.

(25:26):
This is elementary school students. You see it. You see
a big time in medicine, you see a big time.
In medicine um UH, anesthesia errors are four times more
likely at three pm than at nine am. You see
doctors more likely to prescribe unnecessary by antibiotics in afternoon
appointments versus morning appointments. Doctor is more likely to prescribe
opioids in the afternoon appointments than in morning appointments. Doctors

(25:48):
less likely to recommend flu vaccines or mammograms in afternoon
appointments versus morning appointment So there's a big dip in
performance um in the especially in the earlier to mid afternoon.
And then third stage is the recovery stage, which is
a really interesting stage. What you have here is you
have our mood goes back up late in the day

(26:08):
early in the evening, but our vigilance doesn't. And so
that is actually a really potent combination for what psychology
is called insight problems. Those are problems that don't bend
to mathematical logic, that that require not obvious solutions or
seeing around corners or that kind of thing. Let's like brainstorming.
You've been in brainstorming sessions where everybody's hyper vigilant, and

(26:31):
we'll say that's a bad idea, that will never work.
That's that's not an effective brainstorming section, um. And so
you want to do that kind of work during the
recovery periods. What we know is that we should be
doing our analytic work during our peak, our insight work
during the recovery, and we should be doing during that
trough period a couple of our right they did you

(26:51):
know there is a there is a logic to the siesta.
The siesta isn't simp like Americans are like, are you
guys so lazy? Um? And because we have this purrey,
we have this puritanical notion that the way to get
more stuff done is to power through. That that's effective
and that's also morally virtuous. But in fact, the evidence

(27:15):
tells us that real professionals take breaks, and especially during
that period when they know their performances, they know that
their performances off. So what we have to reckon with
is that is this key fact. Our brain power doesn't
remain constant over the course of the day. It changes,
It changes in material ways. And if you just ignore that,

(27:37):
you're gonna underperform. If you respect that, you can actually
make better choices about when to do things. How do
you tell your boss that though. I mean, that's like
you're working in a company and you're working, You're like,
the next three hours, I'm I'm not actually going to
come to those meetings you have scheduled. That's a great So.
So there a couple of things that you can do.
One of them is that you can so one of

(27:57):
the ways to persuade bosses is like this is like
the master lesson that I learned the hard way in
my life is that bosses describe You gotta appeal to
bosses in terms of their own self interest. All right.
As emotionally intelligent and lovely as some of them are,
ultimately I don't care about you. They care about themselves

(28:19):
and they care about their job. So you have to
appeal to them in terms of their own self interest. Um.
And so you need to make the case in terms
of why it's going to be better for them if
you don't come in at eight o'clock and instead come
in at ten o'clock. Because you're like, you're not a
super early morning person. Why, Um, actually going out for
a walk or a run midday is actually going to

(28:41):
allow you to do more rather than rather than do less.
And and for bosson I'm convinced with bosses this is
like true for persuasion, motivation, whatever. Bosses tend to group
people into two categories. People who make my life easier,
people who make my life harder. And so if you
can put your choices in the make my life easier category,

(29:04):
you have a you have a you have a fighting
chance of doing it. But I put some of the
burden on bosses um to say that, like, oh, I
got this. I have this group of software developers who
are let's to to Jill's point about some some younger people,
because what we know is that there's a big move
towards lateness between the mid teens and the late teens

(29:24):
for a lot, for a lot of people. This is
why high schools start way too early. It's absolutely so
let's say let's say let's say I've got a group
of twenty one year old software engineers who are on
the late side or your alley, and our boss. I
shouldn't be saying, oh, you have to show your commitment
by coming in for an eight am staff meeting. That's

(29:45):
that's being an idiot, that's being a bad boss. I
should say, how can I create the conditions that allow
the people working here to do the very best work. Yeah,
you know what you said about convincing your boss. My
sister in law just did this. She she started a
new job about nine months ago, proved herself. She was
doing really well. Her boss highly valued her, and but
she had to quit doing yoga because they're they're a

(30:08):
very show up, early FaceTime kind of place. And she
went to her boss and said, you know, I really
think i'd be more productive and do even more for
you if I could take yoga twice a week. And
he said, sure, that sounds good, And I don't know,
she really didn't expect him to be okay with it,
because they are their culture is oriented towards you know,

(30:29):
everyone shows up at one time and stays until, you know,
until six. That's you know what, boss, guess what. I
just came up with this incredible way for me to
work more and get more done. Interested in hearing about it? Yeah, yoga, okay, great,
go go for yoga. You have to take my carrot,

(30:49):
you have to give your no. This is this is
this is allowing you more money. This is this is
where human beings felled out all the time. We're terrible
at taking out the people's perspective. We're very we think
that everybody is. We think that everybody is looking at
the world the way we are. And what we have
to do is we have to get out of our
own head into someone else's head and see it from
the boss's perspective. Because that boss, your sister in law's boss,

(31:10):
she could he or she could have been being pressured
by their own boss, by a company that is like
barely staying whatever that person has pressures to. So getting
out of our own heads into and seeing things from
other people's points of view, if everybody did that a
little bit better, the world would be a better place.
Well amen to that. I think we all should go

(31:31):
take a yoga break right about now. Daniel, thank you
so much for being with us today. Pleasure, Thanks for
having me. You can subscribe to Daniel's bi weekly newsletter,
The Pink Cast, to follow his work and get his
books at Dan Pink dot com. Also connect with him
on Twitter at Daniel Pink. The Road to Somewhere is

(31:54):
recorded in New York City. Make sure you share, subscribe, rate,
and review us, and let us hear from you. Where
are you on your journey? Connect with us on Instagram
and Twitter at pod to Somewhere, Email us at road
to Somewhere at iHeartMedia dot com. Special thanks to our
producer Alicia Haywood. Thanks for joining us on the Road
to Somewhere. Available on the I Heart Radio app, on

(32:17):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Lisa Oz

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