September 13, 2023 • 42 mins
This type of prepared mustard, though traditionally made with Burgundy wine byproducts, has gone global. Anney and Lauren dip into the sharp science and spreading history of Dijon mustard.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of IHEARTRADEO. I'm any
Res and.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode for
you about Djon Mustard.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, and welcome back, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh, thank you, thank you, and thank you so much
for doing that. That's solo, that solo episode. I really
appreciate it. And uh, yeah, I'm coming to you from
my house. I bought a house, like I bought a
house like I this is really weird, Like I like
someone let me buy a house, and then I bought
it and now I'm living in it. I'm very confused
(00:44):
about this entire process.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But yeah, it's a little bit of a fixer upper.
And there's many projects that we're doing right now. And
uh and so right now, the studio that I'm in
is basically a blanket fort, but a very nice blanket fort.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I can attest it is a very nice blanket for it.
But yeah, I can't wait to see it in person. Oh,
biting myself.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh yeah, no, no, you are super invited. I almost
have a floor in every room.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Now, Okay, I like the sound of that. But yes,
this is our first time coming from Laurence New Studio
y episode.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, so it's a welcome everyone into my blanket fort Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes. Was there any particular reason you chose Dijon mustard.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It's been on my mind for a while because A
it's delicious, it's something that I usually have on hand,
and B yeah, it's just got a fun story to
it and so so, yeah, I wanted, I wanted to
wanted to talk about it. I usually want to talk
about mustard.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It is true. It's one of the those condiments speaking
of moving where I'm like, this condiment has been with
me from here here here. Yes, Yes, I haven't done
this in a while, and I've realized recently I've been
slacking because there's a lot of food references in Seinfeld.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Oh sure, Oh yeah, No. We haven't talked about Seinfeld
in a long time, have we? No?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And here I am so the first thing I think
of with Dijon mustard, And it actually makes sense now
that I've done the research. But there's an episode of
Seinfeld where Kramer, who is sort of the kind of
like mouture of a neighbor who always comes into Jerry's
apartment and gets the food. Jerry's getting frustrated by this,
(02:48):
and Kramer senses it. So Kramer's making this huge turkey sandwich, okay,
like ginormous turkey sandwich with Jerry's food, and he opens
the refrigerator and he's like, you don't have any mustard,
and Jerry's like, yeah, I do. It's right there and
it's the American yellow mustard and Cramer's like, no, that's
(03:11):
not mustard. D Jon Jerry de Jon, and he like
goes on this whole spiel about how he can't without Dijon,
this is not a sandwich. And so he takes a
bite of this massive turkey sandwich that he's made and
it was like no, no, no, no no. Without Djon,
I'm out. And Jerry gets really frustrated because he's like,
(03:33):
you took a bite out of this massive sandwich of
turkey and you're not gonna eat it, And hence the
the tab. They agreed to start a tab and hilarity ensues.
But I think that's a kid that was the first
I heard of d Jon.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh wow, uh okay, yeah, there's oh, there's a possibility
that those grape pupon commercials happened before I was particularly
aware of Jon mustard. For sure, by the time my
family was in South Florida. My dad would get stone
crab once a year and Dijon mustard was always like
(04:11):
a side dip sauce for that. But but it was
probably through grape poop pod, yeah, which we are going
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I've forgotten about those commercials until I was reading about
them and I was like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
uh huh. And then I mentioned, I know it's been
kind of a break, but I mentioned in our Kiwi
episode that there was a link between Kiwi and Djon
Mustard through my time studying abroad in Europe and with Kiwi,
(04:43):
my host mom, we would scoop it out and that
was dessert. But she used Djon mustard all the time
for like, favorite thing she would do is she would
boil potatoes. Okay, just put a ton of Djon mustard
into what I would kind of from my American pov.
(05:04):
I would see that as sort of a mashed potato situation,
because my mom does a thick mashed potatoes. Okay, so
it wasn't like a smooth, creamy It's more like kind
of mushed potato cubes. I'm not describing it in a
very appetizing it.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Served hot or cold.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Hers was served cold my host mom, Yes, my mom hot,
but yeah, she would serve it cold. And it was delicious,
like it was just like a really tart, refreshing kind
of spicy savory thing.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, and it was a very simple obviously, she just
kind of boiled these potatoes, maybe added a couple of
seasons and then a bunch of tshow mustard. But it
I hadn't had something like that before, and I was like,
why have I not had some right before?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Right like that kind of yeah, the first time that
you have like a totally different take on a potato
salad and you're just like, what is this? And how
can I eat the.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Most of it? And I did eat a lot of it?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Well. You can see the episode we did.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
On Mustard in general. Yeah, general Mustard episode, sure, mm hmm.
But that being said, yes, other Mustard's different episodes absolutely, yep. Yeah,
we've done a few other condiments, and I guess we've
talked about other Brassica kind of species of plants before.
(06:29):
So yeah, but it's a whole world out there, it is,
and there will be more, oh yeah, in the future,
of course.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
As we continue. But I suppose this brings us to
our question, djon mustard, what is it? Well?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Djon mustard is a type of condiment typically made with
a holed brown and or black mustard seeds, plus water, salt,
and some kind of wine rape product like white wine
or wine vinegar, all blended into a smooth, creamy, light yellow,
spoonable paste that has a has a sharp pungent bite,
a little bit of bitterness, and a really like tart
(07:13):
acidic kick. Different varieties might keep those those seedholes in
for like a whole grain mustard vibe, or might add
other flavorings like herbs or spices, or even like fruit
or fruit juice. It's used straight as a table condiment
or on sandwiches or alongside meats or cheeses, and also
often as an ingredient in dressings and sauces and all
(07:35):
kinds of savory dishes. It's just like really good at
playing up other flavors without fading into the background. It's
like a It's like yellow mustard's fancy cousin that has
impeccable social skills and a very sharp tongue. It's like
(07:57):
the Maggie Smith of condiments. Yes, okay. So mustard, generally speaking,
is a preparation of the seeds of sort of weedy
plants in the Braska genus that grow these long, skinny
pods with a number of tiny seeds inside. These plants
(08:18):
are cousins of things like arugula and radish and kale,
and all of these plants create compounds that humans and
other mammals experience as pungent that that is, spicy hot
on our tongues and sometimes in our mouths and noses
and other mucous membranes. Those compounds evolved to discourage animals
(08:38):
and even microbes from eating these plants, but we humans
decided that we like that suckers.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I did stumble across a really funny article recently where
it was parents trying to understand why their kids like
spicy things makes them miserable.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I was like, sorry, humans are masochistic, that's what we're
up to.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Look, it was funny. It was like a deer abby
or something like, please explain this to me, And I'm like, well,
I could if you would like, but it doesn't really
make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, it's just minor danger. We're like, oh, this is
safe danger. I'm going to do that as much as
I can. Yeah, it's like horror movies for your mouth.
Yeah exactly. Okay, So in mustard plants in particular, those
compounds are concentrated in the seeds as a specific way
of discouraging animals like mammals, from chewing the seeds up
(09:40):
like just sitting there minding their own business. The seeds
do not actually contain any of those spicy compounds. The
compounds are only formed when the seeds are crushed and
mixed with water, and that happens through the release and
activation of enzymes that the seeds contain. And evolutionarily, that
makes perfect sense because like animals, mouths contain saliva, which
(10:01):
contains water. So when you chew up the seeds, the
plant is saying stop, hay hey, stop that, Whereas if
you were to just swallow them whole, that would be fine.
That's preferable for the plant because then you might pass
the seeds whole and unharmed, right through your digestive system
(10:22):
and thus spread the seeds for the plant. Is why
birds don't taste spicy. But anyway, okay, that burn, that
that chemical burn only lasts as long as the enzymes
are actively doing their thing, and they'll start wearing out
after about fifteen minutes. But clearly the seeds in your
(10:46):
jar of prepared mustard have been ground up for significantly
longer than fifteen minutes. So how does that happen? How
do we get prepared mustard from seeds that have been
crushed weeks or months ago that's still spicy. Well, if
you introduce an acid to the mix, like say wine
(11:07):
or vinegar, it will preserve those spicy compounds and inhibit
further spiciness from developing. It'll just kind of freeze it
at that one moment in enzymatic time. Yeah, so hence
vinegar in mustard preparations. Brown and black mustard seeds are
(11:29):
different species than white mustard seeds. Those darker ones do
have a bit more of a kick. American yellow mustards
are made from the white mustard seeds. They don't hit
you in the mucous membranes the way the black and
brown ones do. The colors black and white and brown
all refer to the whole color on the seeds. The
insides are all sort of yellowish and yeah, yep, you
(11:54):
can use Dijon mustard. However, you want to use a condiment.
I will say that if you're applying it to a
warm day, adding it towards the end will help preserve
that bite. Yeah, and kind of side note, it is
a really great ingredient in vinegarette dressings because first of all,
it's tasty, but second of all, mustard seeds contain stuff
(12:18):
called lessethins, which are these molecules that occur in lots
of plants and animals that have different molecular parts, some
of which will glom onto water and some of which
will glom onto fats. And this is useful because normally
water and fats repel each other, right like, it's hard
to get them to mix, but less ethins help them
play nice. So when you add a little bit of
(12:40):
dijon mustard to your oil and vinegar for your salad dressing,
it'll help them emulsify into a cohesive dressing, like the
oil won't separate itself back out. You can technically use
any mustard for this, but dijon is nice because it's
puaid smooth and already has those good like winy flavor
notes to it. Yeah. Yeah, and yep, the traditional type
(13:01):
of dijon mustard really should only have four ingredients like
mustard seeds, water, vinegar or wine and salt. But interestingly
to me, in Dijon, France, where the condiment is basically from,
you can get all kinds of fun varieties flavored with
things like basil or black currant, or a spice blend
that's reminiscent of local gingerbread, like a local spice cake. Right.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I saw you could go on like Dijon mustard tasting tours.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, yeah, there are a bunch of like traditional producers
who still have tasting rooms in Djon, and I want
to go to all of those.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That sounds so good. Well, what about the.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Nutrition by itself? Mustard adds a really big flavor bang
for a really low chloric buck. I would say that
most of the time you're not consuming enough to truly
make a nutritional difference.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
But I don't know what you get up to. This
is true. We can't We can't know for sure. We
do have some numbers for you, we do. As of
two thousand and nine, Amora Miles was France's largest Dijon.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Producer, and French mustard manufacturers use some thirty five thousand
metric tons of mustard seeds every year. The French apparently
consume the most mustard in all of Europe, like about
a kilo of mustard every year per person. That's a
little bit over two pounds. And most of that is
(14:38):
Dijon style. Wow, yep, yep. I'm like, I feel like
that beats me by a long shot, which is like
also impressive. I'm like, well, way to go, France. Heck. Yeah.
There is a International Gastronomy Festival in Dijon every year.
It runs from like October thirty first through November eleventh.
(15:00):
It's not necessarily mustard based, but I just thought this
was fascinating. Yeah, they have some like one hundred and
fifty to two hundred thousand people that attend. It just
celebrated its one hundredth anniversary in twenty twenty one. If
you have been to this, let us know, please oh please. Also, yeah,
there is only one mustard maker still producing in Dijon
(15:21):
as of January twenty twenty three. We're going to get
into that in the history.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh yeah, yeah, it is quite quite a history.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, it is, it is, and we are going to
get into it as soon as we get back from
a quick break. For word from our sponsors and we're back.
Thank you sponsors, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So yes, go see our more generalized mustard episode for more.
This does share a lot of history, similar histories with
other condiments too, I would say, sure. Yeah, So mustard
in this condiment sense does have ancient roots. Records indicate
(16:12):
that it was used medicinally and culinarily in China, in
Egypt and parts of the Middle East by three thousand BCE.
And yeah, I believe we've talked about this several times
with the ancient Romans turned this spice, these seeds into
a paste, either by grinding them or soaking the seeds
(16:32):
in vinegar, and then served it with all kinds of things,
and it was a very kind of fancy thing. Yes,
the seeds were probably introduced to France, where a lot
of this history takes place for Dijon mustard, by the
ancient Romans, who notably probably introduced grapevines for wine too
(16:54):
in that area. So monks and France were experimenting with
making mustard paste from the ninth to tenth century CE,
and one of the first written recipes out of France
for this mustard traces back to the thirteenth century. Some
monasteries made a name for themselves through mustard production, which
(17:14):
I love. Yes, when it comes to Dijon specifically, most
historians do agree that it originated in Burgundy. Dijon is
the capital of that region, in part due to the
wine industry there, Mustard seeds were frequently grown as a
(17:35):
complementary crop for the grapevines. They helped impart necessary nutrients.
They're just like a helpful crop to grow alongside it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah. Yeah, They're like a kind of good like groundcover
underneath grape vines, just to just to keep things that
you wouldn't want from growing there. And they make a.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Useful product they do, yes, because producers were like, okay,
this helps with the wine, but now I also have
this other product. What can I do with that? So
they would mix mustard seeds with must from the wine,
which we've talked about in our wine episodes, to make
(18:15):
a type of mustard close to what we know as
Dijon today. Not quite but close.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, must being right like juice from wine grapes basically.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, pretty much. The Dukes of Burgundy, who were sponsors
of mustard, allegedly hosted a feast in thirteen thirty six
that boasted seventy gallons of this type of mustard. They
were real big fans. They helped put it on the map.
They also helped solidify Burgundy's reputation as a place for
(18:48):
quality mustards, which is great, as well as the idea
that mustard was prestigious and luxurious. King Philip the sixth
was allegedly a big fan too, So yeah, it was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's a very posh thing. Yeah, these posh people like
this posh thing, and yeah you should you should want
it too.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, And speaking of Oh, I don't know if this
is true, but I found it in a couple of places.
There's a story that around this time, one of the popes,
because I guess they were two popes at this time.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Oh, I would have to look into that. That would be
a that's a separate show.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I literally had to do an episode on stuff one
ever told you where I was just like, can women
be popes? And the answer is no, And so it
was a very short episode. So I don't know, is
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, yeah, I know very little about popes.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Well, listeners please write in, but this pop pope, John
the twenty second of Avignon was a fan of this mustard,
and as the story goes, he career the position of
Grand Mutadier du pop or grand mustard maker to the Pope,
and he appointed his nephew because apparently his nephew was like,
(20:10):
I don't know, lazy, he didn't do much. It was like,
here's your position.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It's like you need a job, get a job. Here's
a job.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Okay, yes, and again, listeners please write in. Apparently this
gave rise to an idiom in France. He thinks himself
the head mustard maker to the Pope, basically meaning a
person who thinks too much of himself, which I please.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's beautiful. If anyone has ever heard or said this
out in the wild, then I that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
We need to know, we need to know. Moving on,
in the sixteenth century, mustard makers in the region came
together to form guilds. In these gills, they made not
only the spreadable condiment, but also mustard powder and several
varieties of mustard that many of us would be less
familiar with to this day. Like a lot of them
(21:07):
had like almonds in them and things like that.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Producers in Burgundy faced stiff competition from makers based in
Paris in the surrounding areas of Paris, so it was
competitive the mustard game. Still, there were several other adjustments
that needed to be made over the next five centuries
before Dijon as we know it was born. Over that time,
(21:33):
people all over France were tinkering with different types of mustard,
including commonly replacing the wine aspect the wine must with vinegar, water,
and salt or frequent additions as well. However, as popular
lore goes, a mann in Dijon named Jean Nagion replaced
(21:53):
the vinegar with er jew, another product of wine in
eighteen fifty six, which is correct me if I'm wrong more,
and it's white wine. It's kind of like must it's
like white wine specific.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I believe it's it's white wine specifically, and it's the
juice of slightly under ripe grapes.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, yeah, yes, And the resulting product had a really
specific and unique heat that set it apart from other mustards.
Some say he wasn't the first to do this. I'm
likely to agree with him, but he was. Really he
was just really vocal and adamant that this was the
(22:32):
way to go when making this product.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah sure, m m mm.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Hmm. And then Gray Poupon, which many of us know,
was founded about a decade later by Maurice Gray and
Auguste Poupon, and it was equipped with a steam powered
machinery that allowed them to make Dijon mustard commercially. And
this really allowed for Burgundy to dominate in the manufacture
(23:01):
of mustards. Beginning in the nineteenth century, production exploded and
other mustard factories opened. Many name brands we still know
today opened around this time, some of them reaching fifty
kilograms per day about one hundred and ten pounds per day.
Massive patches of land were set aside for the cultivation
(23:24):
of the seeds all the way until they were burned
down in World War Two. Yes, and interestingly, a part
of the success of the mustard in this area was
because local coal producers figured out that the seeds grew
really well when charcoal ashes were used as fertilizer. So,
(23:44):
kind of going back to the same thing with the wine,
I find this really fascinating. They realized they could make
more money yees selling these seeds to mustard makers after
they fertilized them. Like, it's just the different aspects of
how it gets made really interesting. But that means that
when demand for coal started to decline in the mid
(24:06):
nineteen hundreds, the number of mustard seeds grown in Burgundy
went down as well. So manufacturers increasingly turned to brown
seeds grown in Canada for these mustards, or they started
growing more profitable crops in that area. Almost all French
(24:28):
mustard production used seeds from Canada by the nineteen eighties,
and more in that in a second. But through all
of this history, these ups and downs, it wasn't long
before Dijon was a go to in France, and then
after that it's bred across the globe. Burgundy grown seeds
did see a boost in the nineteen nineties, in part
(24:48):
because of a desire to make Dijon a local product again.
But this is also the decade that Gray Pupon launched
a really aggressive and effective marketing campaign in the US
that established it as a fancy product that people who
drove rolls royces kept in their glove boxes for fancy emergencies.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Love a fancy emergency.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yes, which I was like, what, And then when I
watched that commercial, I was like, oh, yeah, I've I
remember this, and I've also kind of absorbed it, like
osmosis or something.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Now as a child, I was like, yeah, sure,
the fanciest of people really need this mustard, Okay, yeah, yeah, No,
I didn't question it as like a seven year old,
I was.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Like absolutely, of course. And that's when the Seinfeld episode
was coming out, So that's it makes sense. And in
two thousand Moura Mile was purchased by Unilever and they
closed their factory in Dijon in two thousand and nine,
and that was part of the big like, oh, production
(25:55):
is moving away from Djon of Dijon mustard, which speaking
of that same year, mustard producers in the region established
an Indication Geographicue protege IGP, which is like an AOP
but less strict. That's what we talked about when we
talk about things like Champagne Jesus. Yeah, yes, but it
(26:18):
was for Mutard de Borgun requiring Burgundy seeds and Burgundy wine.
There's a couple other rules, but that's like the basic.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's basically Dijon mustard that is produced
in the Burgundy region, easing seeds from Burgundy and wine
from Burgundy. And I get the idea that that local
producers just sort of gave up on trying to protect
the name Dijon mustard, Like, I think that that's what
they wanted to do. But they were like, it's that
(26:48):
that that mustard cat is out of the bag. It is,
it is gone, it is living its life free around
the world. I cannot help I cannot help it. But
they still wanted to get recognition for this traditional product,
and this was sort of the workaround getting a yeah,
Burgundy mustard as a IGP. Right around the same time,
(27:09):
in two thousand and eight, France began banning the use
of a lot of pesticides in agriculture, and then later
in most public spaces and then later in most private
spaces as well. And these laws and their implementation have
been controversial among both farmers and environmentalists. Like it's somehow
managed to make everybody mad in different ways, and that
(27:36):
going into that would require a deeper look than I
have time for today. But this will become important again
in just a.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Minute, a single minute, yes, okay. So in twenty twenty two,
French mustard shortages impacted Dijon mustard producers and consumers. It
made a lot of headlines.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Oh yeah, seeds of change, yeah, a lot of Like
this is how much it costs to get mustard now.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
And this shortage was the culmination of several factors many
producers typically used, as I mentioned a particular brown mustard
seed grown in Canada at this time. Eighty five percent
of French mustard producers used this variety, but a severe
drought there massively slashed the crop yield, tripling the price
(28:29):
of what was grown. At the same time, Russia's invasion
of Ukraine made it harder to get white mustard seeds
typically used for American style yellow mustards, which in turn
led to more people seeking out brown mustard seeds.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah. Yeah, so there was less of it and suddenly
everyone was looking for it. Russia's invasion of Ukraine also
really mucked up supply chains and prices for things like
fertilizers and certain packaging materials like glass metal for lid's, cardboard,
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And as the drought might indicate, time a change is
not helping either.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah, that Canadian drought is definitely related to that.
Like temperatures in West Canada spiked to a record breaking
one hundred and twenty one degrees fahrenheit that summer, that's
like forty nine point six celsius. But just for another example,
a late frost in Burgundy in Burgundy's wine country cut
(29:30):
into wine production there in twenty twenty, thereby nearly doubling
the price of white wines from that region.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And all of this kick started a whole conversation about
labels of origin and where dijon is made because everyone
was like, oh, surely it's made in France, and then no,
actually it's Canada, as a lot of the seeds come
from Canada, and then people were asking questions about that,
like yeah, how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Right right? Which is good I think overall to be
inquisitive task sure, and yeah, like the shortage touched global
markets a little bit, but definitely in France, like there
was panic, there were empty shelves, there were like one
per customer limits. When stock did come back in, there
was this whole rash of suggestions on social media for
(30:17):
using alternatives like horse bradish or with sabby, whole thing,
whole thing. If you have I don't want to dig
up trauma, but if you have a little bit of
PTSD from this and you want to talk to us
about it, please write in and yeah, so like okay,
going back to the pesticide thing, one of the issues
(30:38):
with growing mustard locally and Burgundy is that, yes, climate
change is mucking things up, and one of the results
has been these infestations of insects which are difficult to
control without those banned pesticides. Like banning pesticides generally good. However,
right like, when you suddenly have these like unheard of
(31:00):
and infestations and you can't use the pesticides, then it's
your hands are tied, you know. Just from twenty seventeen
to twenty twenty one, production of mustard seeds in Burgundy
fell from twelve thousand tons to just four thousand tons,
just dove. The shortage though, has silver lining, you know,
(31:21):
like like it's kickstarted these conversations and it has led
to a lot of work to encourage local agricultural operations.
So like, like mustard production companies are offering farmers about
double the normal price for mustard seeds this year twenty
twenty three. The number of producers of mustard seeds went
from one hundred and sixty to over five hundred last year.
(31:44):
In twenty twenty two, and the Hope I couldn't find
updated numbers from this year, but as of last year,
the hope was like by the end of twenty twenty three,
Burgundy farmers would be producing some forty percent of the
seeds that mustard makers need, rather than like fifteen percent
or less. So wow. Yeah. That The industry is also
(32:07):
calling on the European Commission to Develop to help them
develop a research program to explore like hardier varietals of
mustard and ways to farm more successfully without those pesticides.
So I'm really looking forward to seeing how that develops
out in the future.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, me too. I I have such like I want
a sandwich with jon on it, but I also want
the potatoes that my host will right, I've got like
all of these. It goes all over, but.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, I've these memories come back.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, I need to make I need to make
those potatoes. Kind of immediately. I suspect I have everything
I need to make them, because I do have a
jar of Dijon mustard in my fridge right now. It
was everything I could do to not just like squirt
it into my face before I came in here.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I sometimes am like I just need a scoop of
DJA mustard.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, no problem with that, absolutely, no problem with it. Now.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I'm glad you agree.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, I wasn't sure what was going to do to
my vocal quality.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
That's fair, that's a consideration we have to take into
account well, listeners. As always, if you have any recipes
for us, oh my goodness for djon mustard, please let
us know. Yes, but that's what we have to say
about it for now.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It is it is. We do already have some listener
mail for you, though, and we are going to get
into that as soon as we get back from one
more quick break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listen.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Man.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Fancy.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
We're not sure that's what that was.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Absolutely, definitely that is definitely what it was.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
It listens.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
If you hadn't seen these nineteen nineties gray poopon commercials,
yeah yeah, they've got mesa. Have you any gray poop.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Kind of yeah? Yeah, please go immediately.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Oh my oh dear, well our crote so yes, Halluomi
fries are great. I've had them once and hoped to
find them again. The restaurants served them with horse radish
iola for dipping. It was wonderful. Hallumia is just a
great cheese, so versatile and flavorful. Fudge is definitely an
(35:05):
interesting confection. It is definitely rich. I think it is
another one of those things that is really difficult to find. Well,
most fudge is good, but not something you go out
of the way for. Great fudge is worth it. My
personal favorite is from River Street Sweets in Savannah. I
(35:27):
always buy a nice piece of their peanut butter fudge.
Speaking of peanut butter fudge, would that count as our protein? Lord,
I've never had squab, but I've always wanted to try.
Haven't seen it on a menu, but I keep my
eyes open for this feast. I'm definitely not a shift
(35:50):
I'd love to help with cooking it. I love trying
different sorts of recipes and such. Sometimes it works, sometimes
not so much, but that is part of the fun.
The letter mentioning sustainability was excellent. I'm really at the
point where so much as being ships and we are
not thinking of the effects. I'd rather wait for more
local fresh stuff than have it shipped across the globe,
(36:13):
and I think that more attention needs to be paid
to local food needs as well, so many laws make
it so difficult to help people in need.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Yeah, we got to have some really
good conversations about that with some of the folks we
were interviewing out in New Orleans. But it's of course
an ongoing and very deep issue.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah yeah, And we were kind of joking, not joking
off mic, but we always end these episodes with climate
change is ruining stuff, But I still want this food.
What is the balance of that? So that it's very
important to think about, and I do think more people
are getting cognizant of at least I should ask these questions, right, right,
(37:06):
But you know, as we said, it's also who has
time to ask those questions and the money to go
out of their way maybe to get more local foods,
which can be more expensive. So it's yeah, it's a
balance that we have to keep in mind. Oh yeah,
these things.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah absolutely, there's unfortunately no one good solution. Nope, Nope,
it's all complicated. We're all just out here doing what
we can. True. Yeah, but I agree with yes, agreed
about fudge. I don't agree that it's your protein. I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Street streets and Savannah I've been. They smell. It's one
of those things where I'm like the siren of the
fudge that I know I only will want one bite of,
but I want it.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, Yes, still dying about Yeah, I'm still dying about
all of these hallumin descriptions. Y'all are killing me in
a wonderful way. Thank you, We're here for you. Lauren
Vivian wrote, listening to the squab episode, I immediately thought
(38:18):
of my grandma. There was one summer when I was
in elementary school and visiting her in Sichuan, China, that
she got it in her head that I needed a
nutritional boost. I was very short back then, so she
got pigeon expensive from the farmer's market and would make
this soup that I really couldn't appreciate at the time.
It had all sorts of medicinal herbs expensive that imparted
(38:39):
a rather bitter flavor. I do recall the meat being
incredibly tender, though more delicious worthy. Pigeon eggs very small
like quail eggs, but very tender. Most magically, the egg
whites were translucent even when fully cooked through food side.
There are still people in China who raise pigeons for racing.
I came across such a cage while exploring the alleyways
(39:01):
and they attached videos.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Mm hmm man. Oh yeah, well I love this idea
because as a kid, I would have thought the same thing.
How magical it would be, like, oh it's trans.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Oh yeah, yes, slightly different than the eggs I'm used
to cool perfect, it must.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Be magic, I tell you, yes, yes, but yeah, also
that your grandmother had thought you needed a nutritional booze. Yeah, okay, yeah,
I get this pigeon Yeah, this child, child is too short.
Pigeon soup, let's go. Yes, I mean honestly, chicken soup
(39:47):
for the soul.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
That's right now, sure, Yeah, it's a lot of people
subscribe to this pigeon soup for the soul.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, pigeon soup for the soul. I have had a
lot of pea in my friend group get covid lately,
and I have been trying to cheer them up a
little bit, and I'll be like, at least you can
eat all the soup that you want. What kind of
(40:13):
soup can I send you? Which is kind of sad
because I feel like you should be able to eat
the soup you want anytime.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
But yeah, there shouldn't need to be an excuse for it.
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
That's when I got COVID like a year ago. That
was like the first thing I thought was like, I
can eat all the soups. Yes, so you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Know, I definitely ate a lot of soup while I
was out six So you know, there, we there, we
are there, we are there.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
We are here, we are Oh and listeners, if you
have soup recipes. I'm a soup fiend. I don't know
if I'll speak to you, Lauren, but I love soup. Yeah,
soup season.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We are in soup season. It's not coming quite quick
enough for me, but it's for getting there slowly.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, yes, so that would be very much. I still
make some of the soups some of you has sent in.
I made one recently, so yes, you can send those
to us at our email. Thanks to both of these
listeners for writing away, and if you would like to
(41:26):
write in, you can. Our email is hello at savorpod
dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts to my heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
(41:52):
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to Savor production of IHEARTRADEO. I'm any
Res and.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode for
you about Djon Mustard.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, and welcome back, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh, thank you, thank you, and thank you so much
for doing that. That's solo, that solo episode. I really
appreciate it. And uh, yeah, I'm coming to you from
my house. I bought a house, like I bought a
house like I this is really weird, Like I like
someone let me buy a house, and then I bought
it and now I'm living in it. I'm very confused
(00:44):
about this entire process.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But yeah, it's a little bit of a fixer upper.
And there's many projects that we're doing right now. And
uh and so right now, the studio that I'm in
is basically a blanket fort, but a very nice blanket fort.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I can attest it is a very nice blanket for it.
But yeah, I can't wait to see it in person. Oh,
biting myself.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh yeah, no, no, you are super invited. I almost
have a floor in every room.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Now, Okay, I like the sound of that. But yes,
this is our first time coming from Laurence New Studio
y episode.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, so it's a welcome everyone into my blanket fort Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes. Was there any particular reason you chose Dijon mustard.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It's been on my mind for a while because A
it's delicious, it's something that I usually have on hand,
and B yeah, it's just got a fun story to
it and so so, yeah, I wanted, I wanted to
wanted to talk about it. I usually want to talk
about mustard.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It is true. It's one of the those condiments speaking
of moving where I'm like, this condiment has been with
me from here here here. Yes, Yes, I haven't done
this in a while, and I've realized recently I've been
slacking because there's a lot of food references in Seinfeld.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Oh sure, Oh yeah, No. We haven't talked about Seinfeld
in a long time, have we? No?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And here I am so the first thing I think
of with Dijon mustard, And it actually makes sense now
that I've done the research. But there's an episode of
Seinfeld where Kramer, who is sort of the kind of
like mouture of a neighbor who always comes into Jerry's
apartment and gets the food. Jerry's getting frustrated by this,
(02:48):
and Kramer senses it. So Kramer's making this huge turkey sandwich, okay,
like ginormous turkey sandwich with Jerry's food, and he opens
the refrigerator and he's like, you don't have any mustard,
and Jerry's like, yeah, I do. It's right there and
it's the American yellow mustard and Cramer's like, no, that's
(03:11):
not mustard. D Jon Jerry de Jon, and he like
goes on this whole spiel about how he can't without Dijon,
this is not a sandwich. And so he takes a
bite of this massive turkey sandwich that he's made and
it was like no, no, no, no no. Without Djon,
I'm out. And Jerry gets really frustrated because he's like,
(03:33):
you took a bite out of this massive sandwich of
turkey and you're not gonna eat it, And hence the
the tab. They agreed to start a tab and hilarity ensues.
But I think that's a kid that was the first
I heard of d Jon.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh wow, uh okay, yeah, there's oh, there's a possibility
that those grape pupon commercials happened before I was particularly
aware of Jon mustard. For sure, by the time my
family was in South Florida. My dad would get stone
crab once a year and Dijon mustard was always like
(04:11):
a side dip sauce for that. But but it was
probably through grape poop pod, yeah, which we are going
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I've forgotten about those commercials until I was reading about
them and I was like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
uh huh. And then I mentioned, I know it's been
kind of a break, but I mentioned in our Kiwi
episode that there was a link between Kiwi and Djon
Mustard through my time studying abroad in Europe and with Kiwi,
(04:43):
my host mom, we would scoop it out and that
was dessert. But she used Djon mustard all the time
for like, favorite thing she would do is she would
boil potatoes. Okay, just put a ton of Djon mustard
into what I would kind of from my American pov.
(05:04):
I would see that as sort of a mashed potato situation,
because my mom does a thick mashed potatoes. Okay, so
it wasn't like a smooth, creamy It's more like kind
of mushed potato cubes. I'm not describing it in a
very appetizing it.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Served hot or cold.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Hers was served cold my host mom, Yes, my mom hot,
but yeah, she would serve it cold. And it was delicious,
like it was just like a really tart, refreshing kind
of spicy savory thing.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, and it was a very simple obviously, she just
kind of boiled these potatoes, maybe added a couple of
seasons and then a bunch of tshow mustard. But it
I hadn't had something like that before, and I was like,
why have I not had some right before?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Right like that kind of yeah, the first time that
you have like a totally different take on a potato
salad and you're just like, what is this? And how
can I eat the.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Most of it? And I did eat a lot of it?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Well. You can see the episode we did.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
On Mustard in general. Yeah, general Mustard episode, sure, mm hmm.
But that being said, yes, other Mustard's different episodes absolutely, yep. Yeah,
we've done a few other condiments, and I guess we've
talked about other Brassica kind of species of plants before.
(06:29):
So yeah, but it's a whole world out there, it is,
and there will be more, oh yeah, in the future,
of course.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
As we continue. But I suppose this brings us to
our question, djon mustard, what is it? Well?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Djon mustard is a type of condiment typically made with
a holed brown and or black mustard seeds, plus water, salt,
and some kind of wine rape product like white wine
or wine vinegar, all blended into a smooth, creamy, light yellow,
spoonable paste that has a has a sharp pungent bite,
a little bit of bitterness, and a really like tart
(07:13):
acidic kick. Different varieties might keep those those seedholes in
for like a whole grain mustard vibe, or might add
other flavorings like herbs or spices, or even like fruit
or fruit juice. It's used straight as a table condiment
or on sandwiches or alongside meats or cheeses, and also
often as an ingredient in dressings and sauces and all
(07:35):
kinds of savory dishes. It's just like really good at
playing up other flavors without fading into the background. It's
like a It's like yellow mustard's fancy cousin that has
impeccable social skills and a very sharp tongue. It's like
(07:57):
the Maggie Smith of condiments. Yes, okay. So mustard, generally speaking,
is a preparation of the seeds of sort of weedy
plants in the Braska genus that grow these long, skinny
pods with a number of tiny seeds inside. These plants
(08:18):
are cousins of things like arugula and radish and kale,
and all of these plants create compounds that humans and
other mammals experience as pungent that that is, spicy hot
on our tongues and sometimes in our mouths and noses
and other mucous membranes. Those compounds evolved to discourage animals
(08:38):
and even microbes from eating these plants, but we humans
decided that we like that suckers.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I did stumble across a really funny article recently where
it was parents trying to understand why their kids like
spicy things makes them miserable.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I was like, sorry, humans are masochistic, that's what we're
up to.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Look, it was funny. It was like a deer abby
or something like, please explain this to me, And I'm like, well,
I could if you would like, but it doesn't really
make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, it's just minor danger. We're like, oh, this is
safe danger. I'm going to do that as much as
I can. Yeah, it's like horror movies for your mouth.
Yeah exactly. Okay, So in mustard plants in particular, those
compounds are concentrated in the seeds as a specific way
of discouraging animals like mammals, from chewing the seeds up
(09:40):
like just sitting there minding their own business. The seeds
do not actually contain any of those spicy compounds. The
compounds are only formed when the seeds are crushed and
mixed with water, and that happens through the release and
activation of enzymes that the seeds contain. And evolutionarily, that
makes perfect sense because like animals, mouths contain saliva, which
(10:01):
contains water. So when you chew up the seeds, the
plant is saying stop, hay hey, stop that, Whereas if
you were to just swallow them whole, that would be fine.
That's preferable for the plant because then you might pass
the seeds whole and unharmed, right through your digestive system
(10:22):
and thus spread the seeds for the plant. Is why
birds don't taste spicy. But anyway, okay, that burn, that
that chemical burn only lasts as long as the enzymes
are actively doing their thing, and they'll start wearing out
after about fifteen minutes. But clearly the seeds in your
(10:46):
jar of prepared mustard have been ground up for significantly
longer than fifteen minutes. So how does that happen? How
do we get prepared mustard from seeds that have been
crushed weeks or months ago that's still spicy. Well, if
you introduce an acid to the mix, like say wine
(11:07):
or vinegar, it will preserve those spicy compounds and inhibit
further spiciness from developing. It'll just kind of freeze it
at that one moment in enzymatic time. Yeah, so hence
vinegar in mustard preparations. Brown and black mustard seeds are
(11:29):
different species than white mustard seeds. Those darker ones do
have a bit more of a kick. American yellow mustards
are made from the white mustard seeds. They don't hit
you in the mucous membranes the way the black and
brown ones do. The colors black and white and brown
all refer to the whole color on the seeds. The
insides are all sort of yellowish and yeah, yep, you
(11:54):
can use Dijon mustard. However, you want to use a condiment.
I will say that if you're applying it to a
warm day, adding it towards the end will help preserve
that bite. Yeah, and kind of side note, it is
a really great ingredient in vinegarette dressings because first of all,
it's tasty, but second of all, mustard seeds contain stuff
(12:18):
called lessethins, which are these molecules that occur in lots
of plants and animals that have different molecular parts, some
of which will glom onto water and some of which
will glom onto fats. And this is useful because normally
water and fats repel each other, right like, it's hard
to get them to mix, but less ethins help them
play nice. So when you add a little bit of
(12:40):
dijon mustard to your oil and vinegar for your salad dressing,
it'll help them emulsify into a cohesive dressing, like the
oil won't separate itself back out. You can technically use
any mustard for this, but dijon is nice because it's
puaid smooth and already has those good like winy flavor
notes to it. Yeah. Yeah, and yep, the traditional type
(13:01):
of dijon mustard really should only have four ingredients like
mustard seeds, water, vinegar or wine and salt. But interestingly
to me, in Dijon, France, where the condiment is basically from,
you can get all kinds of fun varieties flavored with
things like basil or black currant, or a spice blend
that's reminiscent of local gingerbread, like a local spice cake. Right.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I saw you could go on like Dijon mustard tasting tours.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, yeah, there are a bunch of like traditional producers
who still have tasting rooms in Djon, and I want
to go to all of those.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That sounds so good. Well, what about the.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Nutrition by itself? Mustard adds a really big flavor bang
for a really low chloric buck. I would say that
most of the time you're not consuming enough to truly
make a nutritional difference.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
But I don't know what you get up to. This
is true. We can't We can't know for sure. We
do have some numbers for you, we do. As of
two thousand and nine, Amora Miles was France's largest Dijon.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Producer, and French mustard manufacturers use some thirty five thousand
metric tons of mustard seeds every year. The French apparently
consume the most mustard in all of Europe, like about
a kilo of mustard every year per person. That's a
little bit over two pounds. And most of that is
(14:38):
Dijon style. Wow, yep, yep. I'm like, I feel like
that beats me by a long shot, which is like
also impressive. I'm like, well, way to go, France. Heck. Yeah.
There is a International Gastronomy Festival in Dijon every year.
It runs from like October thirty first through November eleventh.
(15:00):
It's not necessarily mustard based, but I just thought this
was fascinating. Yeah, they have some like one hundred and
fifty to two hundred thousand people that attend. It just
celebrated its one hundredth anniversary in twenty twenty one. If
you have been to this, let us know, please oh please. Also, yeah,
there is only one mustard maker still producing in Dijon
(15:21):
as of January twenty twenty three. We're going to get
into that in the history.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh yeah, yeah, it is quite quite a history.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, it is, it is, and we are going to
get into it as soon as we get back from
a quick break. For word from our sponsors and we're back.
Thank you sponsors, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So yes, go see our more generalized mustard episode for more.
This does share a lot of history, similar histories with
other condiments too, I would say, sure. Yeah, So mustard
in this condiment sense does have ancient roots. Records indicate
(16:12):
that it was used medicinally and culinarily in China, in
Egypt and parts of the Middle East by three thousand BCE.
And yeah, I believe we've talked about this several times
with the ancient Romans turned this spice, these seeds into
a paste, either by grinding them or soaking the seeds
(16:32):
in vinegar, and then served it with all kinds of things,
and it was a very kind of fancy thing. Yes,
the seeds were probably introduced to France, where a lot
of this history takes place for Dijon mustard, by the
ancient Romans, who notably probably introduced grapevines for wine too
(16:54):
in that area. So monks and France were experimenting with
making mustard paste from the ninth to tenth century CE,
and one of the first written recipes out of France
for this mustard traces back to the thirteenth century. Some
monasteries made a name for themselves through mustard production, which
(17:14):
I love. Yes, when it comes to Dijon specifically, most
historians do agree that it originated in Burgundy. Dijon is
the capital of that region, in part due to the
wine industry there, Mustard seeds were frequently grown as a
(17:35):
complementary crop for the grapevines. They helped impart necessary nutrients.
They're just like a helpful crop to grow alongside it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah. Yeah, They're like a kind of good like groundcover
underneath grape vines, just to just to keep things that
you wouldn't want from growing there. And they make a.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Useful product they do, yes, because producers were like, okay,
this helps with the wine, but now I also have
this other product. What can I do with that? So
they would mix mustard seeds with must from the wine,
which we've talked about in our wine episodes, to make
(18:15):
a type of mustard close to what we know as
Dijon today. Not quite but close.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, must being right like juice from wine grapes basically.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, pretty much. The Dukes of Burgundy, who were sponsors
of mustard, allegedly hosted a feast in thirteen thirty six
that boasted seventy gallons of this type of mustard. They
were real big fans. They helped put it on the map.
They also helped solidify Burgundy's reputation as a place for
(18:48):
quality mustards, which is great, as well as the idea
that mustard was prestigious and luxurious. King Philip the sixth
was allegedly a big fan too, So yeah, it was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's a very posh thing. Yeah, these posh people like
this posh thing, and yeah you should you should want
it too.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, And speaking of Oh, I don't know if this
is true, but I found it in a couple of places.
There's a story that around this time, one of the popes,
because I guess they were two popes at this time.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Oh, I would have to look into that. That would be
a that's a separate show.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I literally had to do an episode on stuff one
ever told you where I was just like, can women
be popes? And the answer is no, And so it
was a very short episode. So I don't know, is
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, yeah, I know very little about popes.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Well, listeners please write in, but this pop pope, John
the twenty second of Avignon was a fan of this mustard,
and as the story goes, he career the position of
Grand Mutadier du pop or grand mustard maker to the Pope,
and he appointed his nephew because apparently his nephew was like,
(20:10):
I don't know, lazy, he didn't do much. It was like,
here's your position.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It's like you need a job, get a job. Here's
a job.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Okay, yes, and again, listeners please write in. Apparently this
gave rise to an idiom in France. He thinks himself
the head mustard maker to the Pope, basically meaning a
person who thinks too much of himself, which I please.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's beautiful. If anyone has ever heard or said this
out in the wild, then I that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
We need to know, we need to know. Moving on,
in the sixteenth century, mustard makers in the region came
together to form guilds. In these gills, they made not
only the spreadable condiment, but also mustard powder and several
varieties of mustard that many of us would be less
familiar with to this day. Like a lot of them
(21:07):
had like almonds in them and things like that.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Producers in Burgundy faced stiff competition from makers based in
Paris in the surrounding areas of Paris, so it was
competitive the mustard game. Still, there were several other adjustments
that needed to be made over the next five centuries
before Dijon as we know it was born. Over that time,
(21:33):
people all over France were tinkering with different types of mustard,
including commonly replacing the wine aspect the wine must with vinegar, water,
and salt or frequent additions as well. However, as popular
lore goes, a mann in Dijon named Jean Nagion replaced
(21:53):
the vinegar with er jew, another product of wine in
eighteen fifty six, which is correct me if I'm wrong more,
and it's white wine. It's kind of like must it's
like white wine specific.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I believe it's it's white wine specifically, and it's the
juice of slightly under ripe grapes.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, yeah, yes, And the resulting product had a really
specific and unique heat that set it apart from other mustards.
Some say he wasn't the first to do this. I'm
likely to agree with him, but he was. Really he
was just really vocal and adamant that this was the
(22:32):
way to go when making this product.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah sure, m m mm.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Hmm. And then Gray Poupon, which many of us know,
was founded about a decade later by Maurice Gray and
Auguste Poupon, and it was equipped with a steam powered
machinery that allowed them to make Dijon mustard commercially. And
this really allowed for Burgundy to dominate in the manufacture
(23:01):
of mustards. Beginning in the nineteenth century, production exploded and
other mustard factories opened. Many name brands we still know
today opened around this time, some of them reaching fifty
kilograms per day about one hundred and ten pounds per day.
Massive patches of land were set aside for the cultivation
(23:24):
of the seeds all the way until they were burned
down in World War Two. Yes, and interestingly, a part
of the success of the mustard in this area was
because local coal producers figured out that the seeds grew
really well when charcoal ashes were used as fertilizer. So,
(23:44):
kind of going back to the same thing with the wine,
I find this really fascinating. They realized they could make
more money yees selling these seeds to mustard makers after
they fertilized them. Like, it's just the different aspects of
how it gets made really interesting. But that means that
when demand for coal started to decline in the mid
(24:06):
nineteen hundreds, the number of mustard seeds grown in Burgundy
went down as well. So manufacturers increasingly turned to brown
seeds grown in Canada for these mustards, or they started
growing more profitable crops in that area. Almost all French
(24:28):
mustard production used seeds from Canada by the nineteen eighties,
and more in that in a second. But through all
of this history, these ups and downs, it wasn't long
before Dijon was a go to in France, and then
after that it's bred across the globe. Burgundy grown seeds
did see a boost in the nineteen nineties, in part
(24:48):
because of a desire to make Dijon a local product again.
But this is also the decade that Gray Pupon launched
a really aggressive and effective marketing campaign in the US
that established it as a fancy product that people who
drove rolls royces kept in their glove boxes for fancy emergencies.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Love a fancy emergency.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yes, which I was like, what, And then when I
watched that commercial, I was like, oh, yeah, I've I
remember this, and I've also kind of absorbed it, like
osmosis or something.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Now as a child, I was like, yeah, sure,
the fanciest of people really need this mustard, Okay, yeah, yeah, No,
I didn't question it as like a seven year old,
I was.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Like absolutely, of course. And that's when the Seinfeld episode
was coming out, So that's it makes sense. And in
two thousand Moura Mile was purchased by Unilever and they
closed their factory in Dijon in two thousand and nine,
and that was part of the big like, oh, production
(25:55):
is moving away from Djon of Dijon mustard, which speaking
of that same year, mustard producers in the region established
an Indication Geographicue protege IGP, which is like an AOP
but less strict. That's what we talked about when we
talk about things like Champagne Jesus. Yeah, yes, but it
(26:18):
was for Mutard de Borgun requiring Burgundy seeds and Burgundy wine.
There's a couple other rules, but that's like the basic.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's basically Dijon mustard that is produced
in the Burgundy region, easing seeds from Burgundy and wine
from Burgundy. And I get the idea that that local
producers just sort of gave up on trying to protect
the name Dijon mustard, Like, I think that that's what
they wanted to do. But they were like, it's that
(26:48):
that that mustard cat is out of the bag. It is,
it is gone, it is living its life free around
the world. I cannot help I cannot help it. But
they still wanted to get recognition for this traditional product,
and this was sort of the workaround getting a yeah,
Burgundy mustard as a IGP. Right around the same time,
(27:09):
in two thousand and eight, France began banning the use
of a lot of pesticides in agriculture, and then later
in most public spaces and then later in most private
spaces as well. And these laws and their implementation have
been controversial among both farmers and environmentalists. Like it's somehow
managed to make everybody mad in different ways, and that
(27:36):
going into that would require a deeper look than I
have time for today. But this will become important again
in just a.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Minute, a single minute, yes, okay. So in twenty twenty two,
French mustard shortages impacted Dijon mustard producers and consumers. It
made a lot of headlines.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Oh yeah, seeds of change, yeah, a lot of Like
this is how much it costs to get mustard now.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
And this shortage was the culmination of several factors many
producers typically used, as I mentioned a particular brown mustard
seed grown in Canada at this time. Eighty five percent
of French mustard producers used this variety, but a severe
drought there massively slashed the crop yield, tripling the price
(28:29):
of what was grown. At the same time, Russia's invasion
of Ukraine made it harder to get white mustard seeds
typically used for American style yellow mustards, which in turn
led to more people seeking out brown mustard seeds.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah. Yeah, so there was less of it and suddenly
everyone was looking for it. Russia's invasion of Ukraine also
really mucked up supply chains and prices for things like
fertilizers and certain packaging materials like glass metal for lid's, cardboard,
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And as the drought might indicate, time a change is
not helping either.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah, that Canadian drought is definitely related to that.
Like temperatures in West Canada spiked to a record breaking
one hundred and twenty one degrees fahrenheit that summer, that's
like forty nine point six celsius. But just for another example,
a late frost in Burgundy in Burgundy's wine country cut
(29:30):
into wine production there in twenty twenty, thereby nearly doubling
the price of white wines from that region.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And all of this kick started a whole conversation about
labels of origin and where dijon is made because everyone
was like, oh, surely it's made in France, and then no,
actually it's Canada, as a lot of the seeds come
from Canada, and then people were asking questions about that,
like yeah, how did that happen?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Right right? Which is good I think overall to be
inquisitive task sure, and yeah, like the shortage touched global
markets a little bit, but definitely in France, like there
was panic, there were empty shelves, there were like one
per customer limits. When stock did come back in, there
was this whole rash of suggestions on social media for
(30:17):
using alternatives like horse bradish or with sabby, whole thing,
whole thing. If you have I don't want to dig
up trauma, but if you have a little bit of
PTSD from this and you want to talk to us
about it, please write in and yeah, so like okay,
going back to the pesticide thing, one of the issues
(30:38):
with growing mustard locally and Burgundy is that, yes, climate
change is mucking things up, and one of the results
has been these infestations of insects which are difficult to
control without those banned pesticides. Like banning pesticides generally good. However,
right like, when you suddenly have these like unheard of
(31:00):
and infestations and you can't use the pesticides, then it's
your hands are tied, you know. Just from twenty seventeen
to twenty twenty one, production of mustard seeds in Burgundy
fell from twelve thousand tons to just four thousand tons,
just dove. The shortage though, has silver lining, you know,
(31:21):
like like it's kickstarted these conversations and it has led
to a lot of work to encourage local agricultural operations.
So like, like mustard production companies are offering farmers about
double the normal price for mustard seeds this year twenty
twenty three. The number of producers of mustard seeds went
from one hundred and sixty to over five hundred last year.
(31:44):
In twenty twenty two, and the Hope I couldn't find
updated numbers from this year, but as of last year,
the hope was like by the end of twenty twenty three,
Burgundy farmers would be producing some forty percent of the
seeds that mustard makers need, rather than like fifteen percent
or less. So wow. Yeah. That The industry is also
(32:07):
calling on the European Commission to Develop to help them
develop a research program to explore like hardier varietals of
mustard and ways to farm more successfully without those pesticides.
So I'm really looking forward to seeing how that develops
out in the future.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, me too. I I have such like I want
a sandwich with jon on it, but I also want
the potatoes that my host will right, I've got like
all of these. It goes all over, but.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, I've these memories come back.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, I need to make I need to make
those potatoes. Kind of immediately. I suspect I have everything
I need to make them, because I do have a
jar of Dijon mustard in my fridge right now. It
was everything I could do to not just like squirt
it into my face before I came in here.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I sometimes am like I just need a scoop of
DJA mustard.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, no problem with that, absolutely, no problem with it. Now.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I'm glad you agree.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, I wasn't sure what was going to do to
my vocal quality.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
That's fair, that's a consideration we have to take into
account well, listeners. As always, if you have any recipes
for us, oh my goodness for djon mustard, please let
us know. Yes, but that's what we have to say
about it for now.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It is it is. We do already have some listener
mail for you, though, and we are going to get
into that as soon as we get back from one
more quick break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listen.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Man.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Fancy.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
We're not sure that's what that was.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Absolutely, definitely that is definitely what it was.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
It listens.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
If you hadn't seen these nineteen nineties gray poopon commercials,
yeah yeah, they've got mesa. Have you any gray poop.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Kind of yeah? Yeah, please go immediately.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Oh my oh dear, well our crote so yes, Halluomi
fries are great. I've had them once and hoped to
find them again. The restaurants served them with horse radish
iola for dipping. It was wonderful. Hallumia is just a
great cheese, so versatile and flavorful. Fudge is definitely an
(35:05):
interesting confection. It is definitely rich. I think it is
another one of those things that is really difficult to find. Well,
most fudge is good, but not something you go out
of the way for. Great fudge is worth it. My
personal favorite is from River Street Sweets in Savannah. I
(35:27):
always buy a nice piece of their peanut butter fudge.
Speaking of peanut butter fudge, would that count as our protein? Lord,
I've never had squab, but I've always wanted to try.
Haven't seen it on a menu, but I keep my
eyes open for this feast. I'm definitely not a shift
(35:50):
I'd love to help with cooking it. I love trying
different sorts of recipes and such. Sometimes it works, sometimes
not so much, but that is part of the fun.
The letter mentioning sustainability was excellent. I'm really at the
point where so much as being ships and we are
not thinking of the effects. I'd rather wait for more
local fresh stuff than have it shipped across the globe,
(36:13):
and I think that more attention needs to be paid
to local food needs as well, so many laws make
it so difficult to help people in need.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Yeah, we got to have some really
good conversations about that with some of the folks we
were interviewing out in New Orleans. But it's of course
an ongoing and very deep issue.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah yeah, And we were kind of joking, not joking
off mic, but we always end these episodes with climate
change is ruining stuff, But I still want this food.
What is the balance of that? So that it's very
important to think about, and I do think more people
are getting cognizant of at least I should ask these questions, right, right,
(37:06):
But you know, as we said, it's also who has
time to ask those questions and the money to go
out of their way maybe to get more local foods,
which can be more expensive. So it's yeah, it's a
balance that we have to keep in mind. Oh yeah,
these things.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah absolutely, there's unfortunately no one good solution. Nope, Nope,
it's all complicated. We're all just out here doing what
we can. True. Yeah, but I agree with yes, agreed
about fudge. I don't agree that it's your protein. I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Street streets and Savannah I've been. They smell. It's one
of those things where I'm like the siren of the
fudge that I know I only will want one bite of,
but I want it.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, Yes, still dying about Yeah, I'm still dying about
all of these hallumin descriptions. Y'all are killing me in
a wonderful way. Thank you, We're here for you. Lauren
Vivian wrote, listening to the squab episode, I immediately thought
(38:18):
of my grandma. There was one summer when I was
in elementary school and visiting her in Sichuan, China, that
she got it in her head that I needed a
nutritional boost. I was very short back then, so she
got pigeon expensive from the farmer's market and would make
this soup that I really couldn't appreciate at the time.
It had all sorts of medicinal herbs expensive that imparted
(38:39):
a rather bitter flavor. I do recall the meat being
incredibly tender, though more delicious worthy. Pigeon eggs very small
like quail eggs, but very tender. Most magically, the egg
whites were translucent even when fully cooked through food side.
There are still people in China who raise pigeons for racing.
I came across such a cage while exploring the alleyways
(39:01):
and they attached videos.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Mm hmm man. Oh yeah, well I love this idea
because as a kid, I would have thought the same thing.
How magical it would be, like, oh it's trans.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Oh yeah, yes, slightly different than the eggs I'm used
to cool perfect, it must.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Be magic, I tell you, yes, yes, but yeah, also
that your grandmother had thought you needed a nutritional booze. Yeah, okay, yeah,
I get this pigeon Yeah, this child, child is too short.
Pigeon soup, let's go. Yes, I mean honestly, chicken soup
(39:47):
for the soul.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
That's right now, sure, Yeah, it's a lot of people
subscribe to this pigeon soup for the soul.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, pigeon soup for the soul. I have had a
lot of pea in my friend group get covid lately,
and I have been trying to cheer them up a
little bit, and I'll be like, at least you can
eat all the soup that you want. What kind of
(40:13):
soup can I send you? Which is kind of sad
because I feel like you should be able to eat
the soup you want anytime.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
But yeah, there shouldn't need to be an excuse for it.
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
That's when I got COVID like a year ago. That
was like the first thing I thought was like, I
can eat all the soups. Yes, so you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Know, I definitely ate a lot of soup while I
was out six So you know, there, we there, we
are there, we are there.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
We are here, we are Oh and listeners, if you
have soup recipes. I'm a soup fiend. I don't know
if I'll speak to you, Lauren, but I love soup. Yeah,
soup season.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
We are in soup season. It's not coming quite quick
enough for me, but it's for getting there slowly.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, yes, so that would be very much. I still
make some of the soups some of you has sent in.
I made one recently, so yes, you can send those
to us at our email. Thanks to both of these
listeners for writing away, and if you would like to
(41:26):
write in, you can. Our email is hello at savorpod
dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod and we do hope to
hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts to my heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
(41:52):
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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