January 22, 2026 • 30 mins
This leafy herb comes with a dense set of names, varieties, and uses. Anney and Lauren dig into the science and history of Perilla frutescens (sometimes called shiso).
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to favor prediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie Reach and I'm more in vocal Baum and
today we have an episode for you about SISO.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, a difficult one in some ways it was.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It was the reading for this one was a little
tough to track down, as it can be for some
types of produce that are just just really common. People
are like, oh, yeah, I don't need to write about that.
I just pick it out of the ground where it
grows everywhere. And compounding upon that, products that are not
(00:46):
from Europe are more difficult to read about in English.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, indeed they are. Indeed they are the lament of
a podcaster in the U. But was there a particular
reason this was on your mind, Lauren? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Was there? I should be more for this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
It's always a shocking question to you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh my goodness. Maybe I ordered sushi.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I think. I think it's been on the list for
a long time, and I had never suggested it before
because of the aforementioned difficulty in finding good sources about it.
But finally I was like, Eh, let's do it. Now
is the time, let's be.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Bold, being bold in the new year. And I have
to say I think I believe this is true. As
a team at Savor, we adore sheiso. Yeah, I think
that's correct. It's definitely one of the things. Like I
love siso a lot, and it's one of the things
that like, I'm still not sick of it on a
(01:56):
drink menu if I see it like like labeled as
like and it's garnished. Was she so?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm like that one. Whoever made that one knows what
I'm about.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It's just so nice. It's just so nice.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It is so nice, and I got all kinds of cravings.
I was not expecting doing this research because I'm like,
she's so pesto, right, Yes, I think I will.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I haven't even considered it before. I have some very
dear friends who who grow she so and gave me
a couple of plants last year, and so I had
fresh sheiso like all summer. I do have some some
fri cake. Was she so in it? And like it's
normal to just eat that out of the jar?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Right, I'm not going to tell you it's not normal.
Also normals overrated ah each year for out of the jar.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Lauren, I probably will indeed.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Also going along with the with the difficulty and reading
materials here. There's a bit of nomenclature difficulty in this episode.
So if you hear my initial definition of this culinary
ingredient and start wanting to argue with me about terminology,
(03:25):
I just ask that you wait until I expand upon
it in my more involved description, like a minute later,
and then if you want to argue with me, go
for it.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah. I used to love this doesn't happen so much anymore.
But when we first started, we'd get like an email
from a listener that would have a correction, and then
two minutes later they would respond and be like, oh
you answered, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You covered that, Okay, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Just give it some time. Just give it some time.
You never know what's going to come up in the
outline in the episode. So yeah, yeah, uh. For past episodes,
I would say the sushi can bear built episode.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Actually sure, yeah, other herbs like mint and basil.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, probably many other things, but those are top of mind.
We've done a lot of topics at this point. We have,
as it turns out, we have, which I guess brings
us to our question. Sure, she's so, what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well? She so is a type of large leafed herb
that comes in a few varieties that have a sort
of heart shape with serrated edges and can be green
to red violet to like deep purple in color, with
a set of flavors that will vary, but within a
complex of like cooling, pike and nutty, bittersweet, earthy, savory.
(04:58):
And I know that I just basically said all of
the flavors, but yeah, that's they can all be in there.
She so can be used raw in salads or as
an edible garnish or a leaf wrap. It can be pickled,
cooked in, cooked like a delicate green into dishes because
it is a delicate green ground and dried for using
condiments or steeped into drinks. The red purple varieties give
(05:22):
off a lot of like nice ruby to pink to
orange color in drinks and in a pickles or other ferments.
She still leaves add a really lovely offset to both
sweet and rich flavors that like herbal, slightly bitter nuttiness
just adds so much dimension to dishes it feels like
(05:45):
it feels like eating something out of a myth or
a fairy tale, kind of like a fay food, Like
you never know exactly what combination of flavors you're going
to get, but it's just real pleasant and feels a
little bit magical.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And generally very pretty. Oh yeah, I have kind of
a fairy tale look to it does. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, that just in pretty shape and those really pretty
like ruffled edges. Yeah. But yeah, linguistic confusion. So in
modern English, we tend to broaden the term sheiso to
mean any cultivar in the species Perilla fruituscans in Japanese,
which is where we borrowed the words sheiso from. I
(06:26):
think I'm correct in saying that she so specifically refers
to the all red or purple leaf cultivar variety crispa.
Japanese has other words for the green leaf and mixed
color leaf varieties, although those words are often a compound
building off of the words she so, although the sound
(06:49):
is transposed to giso in these compounds and other cultures
where these herbs have been used for a long time,
there are sometimes linguistic distinctions, Like I believe in both
Chinese and Korean, but I'm not totally positive because I'm
not I don't speak any of those languages anyway. Yeah,
the different varieties do have different traditional uses, and they
(07:12):
are all a single species because they can all interbreed.
And so, just as in our episodes on mint and
basil we covered different varietales of those things, we're gonna
do the same thing here. That's right, Yes, further linguistic confusion.
In English, you can also find Siso under the names
(07:35):
Perilla after the genus, or by the name the beefsteak
plant after the red purple color of some of their leaves,
and sometimes confusingly a sesame leaf, even though it's not
the leaf of a sesame plant.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I was looking where to buy some today and it
was named it was under the name sesame leaf.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yep. Fun stuff that makes our jobs easier. It's great,
it's still crazy, dream job, all right. So yes, botanical
name perilla fruituscans. She's is in the mint family alongside basil.
Those were related examples. The plants will grow to about
one to three feet tall, like up to a meter.
(08:18):
They have stiff, square shaped stems. The leaves are broad pointed.
OVAL's kind of heart shaped dish that can be pretty big,
like four to five inches long up to about twelve centimeters,
and different varieties do come in those different colors like
all red, purple, all green, or a combination of both.
The leaves can be flat or ruffled, some are a
(08:38):
little bit fuzzy, and yeah, each stem will send up
a tall flower shoot with many tiny white to pink
to purple flowers that, if pollinated, will each develop a
small dry seed pod. You can harvest the leaves as
they grow, or the whole plant if that's easier. The
leaves will die off during the winter. In warmer climates,
the plants can take root and back year after year,
(09:01):
but a frost will kill them, so in more temperate
climates they need to be replanted or broad inside for
the winter, which I wish I had looked up before
winter occurred here. Though apparently they self seed real easy,
so maybe my pot or like my lawn, we'll just
regrow itself come this spring. I will note here that
(09:21):
she so are fairly sturdy and easy to grow, as
many mint family plants are, and they do attract pollinators.
They're tasty weeds. Really. I do understand that Sheiso can
be toxic to grazing ruminants, though, so if you like
raise cattle or whatever, just watch out for that, especially
because yes, mint family plants can get invasive. The whole
(09:46):
plant is edible to humans, and the buds, flowers and
seed pods have similar flavors to the leaves and can
be used as herbs. The pretty little violet flowers are
sometimes used as sushi garnish. The seeds are sometimes dried
and ground to use as a seasoning or pressed for oil,
but those leaves are what people usually go for. Different
(10:09):
varieties and crops do have different flavors. You might have
a mix of like or like.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Comparative flavors that I read about in the past couple
days include mint, basil, cilantro, citrus, clove, annis, cinnamon, cuman,
and sesame. So there you go, clears it right up.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No less than Mark Bittman once described the aroma as
the smell of a mountain meadow after a rainstorm.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oo.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I almost use that for my poetical opening, but I
was like, no, Lauren, you you have your own poetry
to say.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, take that Mark Bitman, Yeah, who is he? The
green leaf varieties tend to be a little bit more
mild and grassy flavored. The red to purple ones tend
to be a little bit more like bright and bitter. Yeah,
(11:08):
the leaves are like tender crisp and texture like mintter basil,
but yeah bigger. Usually that they can be grown as
microgreens to be used as garnishes, and the larger leaves
are often sold in bunches or in like fresh packages. Yeah,
just the leaves green chies so can be used raw
as a leaf wrap for handheld foods like maybe like
(11:28):
a Korean style like plate of proteins and sides and
condiments where you make your own little tasty bites. It
can be used as the wrap on on gari, which
are Japanese style shaped and stuffed rice balls. It can
be an ingredient in Vietnamese style fresh rice paper rolls.
It's often used as a garnish or boundary on plates
(11:49):
of like sushi type dishes, and can also be an
ingredient in sushi rolls. It can be deep fried temporous style.
It can be marinated and preserved and like soy sauce
flavored with garlic and hot peppers for Korean ban chan.
And now that I've just said that paragraph out loud,
I realize where I got the idea for this episode,
and it's that I went to a really fun Vietnamese
(12:11):
restaurant and where you make your own little rice paper rolls,
and there was some chiso on the plate.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
There you go, there you go. I'm so jealous. I'm
jealous of that. I'm jealous of anybody who's enjoying any
of these dishers right now. So many crat VIGs.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, I really need to get some and make some
of that bon chan that is, yes, okay, but that's
all typical uses for green chiso. Red to purple chiso
is what makes a bunch of different pickled foods like
purply pink in color, like Japanese umubushi and pickled ginger
(12:50):
mubushi being salted pickled plums, they're pickled along with red
chizo leaves to give them this color they've got. By
the way, if you've never had an umubushi, they've got
like an amazing sweet, sour, salty flavor. And I understand
it's very grandparent coded of me to like them as
much as I do, but it just kind of goes
with my vibe. Pickle ginger, you know, is often what
(13:11):
you find is a sushi garnish. Pickled CHIESA leaves can
also be made and used on their own. Red chiza
is further chopped, dried, and used in some types of
seasonings like fri kake and shishimi tograshi, which is like
a seven spice blend. Hari Kake is a rice seasoning.
And yeah, the red purple ones are used to make
(13:31):
like bright, summery non alcoholic drinks. Acid helps to set
that like ruby pink color, So something like a lemonade
or like a shrub based cocktail like an apple cider,
vinegar or something works well. This is sometimes called schiso juice.
I've most often seen red chiso used in ice drinks,
(13:51):
but it can be made into hot teas as well,
And yeah, those are like traditional uses. But either whatever
color of chiso can be used for whatever you like.
I can't tell you what to do, no one really can.
The red type can make a whole dish kind of pinkish,
(14:12):
so if that's what you don't want, you don't use it.
But yeah, it's very nice as a garnish or like
a last minute addition to rice pastas other grain dishes,
on salads or soups. You can add some fresh to
dressings and dips. Pesto you can treat the leaves like
(14:32):
delicate grape leaves in making cooked wraps. You can add
them to other ferments like kimchi, or you can use
them as a garnish on cocktails or desserts.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The possibilities are endless. I was talking about somebody who
may they make like pork shrimped dumplings. Yeah, and I
was so furious. I wasn't eating it as I was
reading about it. Yeah, sounds fantastic. Well, what about the
(15:05):
nutrition by itself? She so packs a lot of flavor
for a low chloric punch and does have some fiber
and good micronutrients. You're usually not eating enough to make
that much of a difference. But I will say that
different varieties have a long history of use in traditional
Chinese medicine and other medicinal traditions, perhaps especially as a
(15:26):
digestive aid. There is lots of research being done actually,
But yeah, saber motto, bodies are complicated and nutrition is complicated.
Before you ingest a medicinal amount of anything, you should
check with a medical doctor who is not us. Nope, Nope,
still haven't gotten that degree. Well, have a number ish
(15:50):
for you.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I tried, y'all, it's oh my goodness. Okay, yeah, No,
The one number I have for you is that taste
atless dot com currently as of January of twenty twenty
six has she so down as the number seven best
ranked HERB in the world. For whatever that means.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'm going to have to look at these rankings. Now
you've got me all curious. I didn't know this existed,
and now I need to know who's number one, which
herb is at the top. Well, we do have some
history for you, as convoluted as it may be.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
We do, and we're going to get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break for
a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and yes we are
back with the history. As Lauren said, this one was
kind of a pain because there was just a lack
of resources that I was able to find that were
legitimate resources frankly, honestly even like not so legitimate once.
(17:17):
So as always, you know, that's kind of the We
do run into this a lot with something that might
have been around for a while and people weren't writing about.
But also as English speakers and maybe there are more
resources in other languages. So if you do know more,
please let us know. Oh yeah, yeah, yes absolutely, but
(17:41):
here's what we have.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Historians believe that the shisho leif originated in China.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Perhaps specifically what's now southern China and me and mar
up through the Himalayas.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
The first known mention of sheisho is from a pharmaceutical
writing out of eleven hundred BC China. It grew wild
in ancient Japan, perhaps after being introduced by Chinese merchants,
but it was cultivated by the Japanese on a decent
scale by the seven hundred CE. According to a few sources,
it did take a while for shiso to be incorporated
(18:17):
into Japanese cuisine. Instead, the seed oil was used for lamps,
while the leaves were just not widely utilized. It was
kind of expensive though to make that oil and other
alternatives were found over time. However, once people discovered the
culinary uses of the leaves, it started appearing in more
and more food applications. At least one source I found
(18:40):
suggests that siso leaves have been found in Japanese pottery
from over twenty five hundred years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I read that as well. I also read the prehistoric
stashes of schiso seeds had been found in Korea, so.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Sheiso has been used both culinarily medicinally in parts of
East and Southeast Asia for hundreds of years, if not
much longer than that. A lot of the early medicinal
uses were allegedly for food poisoning, and some believe that
the antibacterial properties of the leaves were the reason it
was served with sushi, both to slow down spoilage of
(19:18):
the fish and prevent food poisoning. So yes, tracking down
specifics was very tricky for this one, but once people
got on board with eating sheis, so it ended up
in all kinds of dishes in many Asian countries that
had access to it. Stir fries, sushi noodles, marinated over
steamed rice as a sort of wrapper. It was stewed,
(19:41):
it was pickled, so many different preparations based on the
taste and ingredients of the region, as well as the
rietal being used. From what I read, the color might
have played into the presentation standpoint as well. The bright
pop of color, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
The first recipe for umiboshi made with bread chiso comes
from the seventeen hundreds, right around then may also when
schiso maki developed, which is a snack made with like
a sheiso leaf wrapped around a filling of miso paste,
with other stuff like a ground walnuts, sesame seeds, modernly
stuff like sugar and hot peppers. They're usually fried. And
(20:19):
this is the thing, out of all the things today
that I'm like, why have I ever had that? Why
am I not eating it right now?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Agreed? Agreed, Lauren. The leaf was introduced to the West
during the eighteen hundreds. This is when it was brought
to the US with Asian immigrants, and in some places
it was picked up as an ornamental plant.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, and it grows really easily in a lot of
America's climates, too easily, perhaps given the Yeah, as said above,
it's not good for grazing ruminants.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes, And in nineteen eighty four it was flagged as
an invasive species in Georgia or home state specifically. Large
scale cultivation of green shiso leaves in Japan really got
underway in the nineteen.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Sixties, and that is when one of the Japanese words
for culinary use, leaf shiso oba, came into use.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And this brings us to one of one of my
favorite parts. I wasn't expecting to research this. I've never
really considered it. But from what I understand, the green
plastic dividers with spiked edges that you might find separating
different types of sushi today if you get it delivered
to you or takeout or something like that were modeled
and or inspired by shiso leaves, or at least in
(21:38):
part because many also credit barren grass too. So there's
a couple of things, a couple of different leaves that
might have been the case, but sheiso comes up a lot.
So this usage of these types of plastic dividers in
sushi really started taking off in Japan in the nineteen
sixties when things like takeout Sushi, We're Exploding and you
(22:01):
can see our Conveyor Belt Sushi episode for more on
that and what was going on there. And so this
plastic grass was cheaper and easier to mass produce than
something like sheiso leaves. I also read the term she
so became popular in the US in the nineteen nineties
due to the growing popularity of sushi in the US.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, I do think that that's why I'm most familiar
with the name for this plant being shei so for
that reason, you know, like the spread of Japanese cuisine
and culture here in the US before other regional cuisines
that use it. So meanwhile, package tarikake was also taking
(22:44):
off in Japan around this time, the nineteen sixties to
seventies in all kinds of flavors. In nineteen seventy, the
brand Mishima debuted It's Yukari blend, which is red she
so leaf pickled with plum vinegar, than dried and ground
with salt. It's really lovely like herbal and fruity. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And then in two thousand and nine, Pepsi Japan released
a limited edition run of Schiso Pepsi, which people seem
to be into. If you've tried a listeners, let us know.
More and more American chefs and mixologists started using schiso
in their dishes and beverages in the US in the
(23:26):
early two thousands.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Dishes first there was going back to nineteen ninety five
in New York Times, articles cited sheiso as like a
hot new ingredient in the restaurant scene. And it was
a little bit later, I think for the cocktails, like
the twenty teens, there was a big Siso Garnish boom
in American cocktails like to the point. The Punch magazine
(23:48):
in twenty nineteen published this incredibly snarky obituary to Sheiso Garnish,
with its cause of death being over use.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think we had someone we were in Hawaii, absolutely
and some cocktails that had she said lethan I was.
I was in love with it. Obituary from me.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I was very pleased.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I still am, yes, exactly. Well, unfortunately, that's all we
have to say about she So for now. But we
would really really love to hear from you listeners if
you know anything we didn't mention, recipes, uses, memories.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
All, yes, yes, yes, yes please mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But that's what we have to say for now. M
h Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And we're back, Thank you, sponsors, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listeners.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
May love.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Lovely Okay, so Segal wrote, and I'm so sorry if
I mispronounced that, Just please write in and let me know.
Greetings from Israel. Hope you were doing good. I've just
finished listening to your episode about cottage cheese. I am
lactose intolerance, so I don't have anything to share about
the actual cheese, though I remember it fondly from the
(25:26):
days before being diagnosed. However, in Israel, the summer of
twenty eleven was labeled with the cottage cheese boycott in
Israel over the cost of living, starting with the cost
of the popular cottage cheese, and involved into people setting
up tents and Rothschild Boulevard and Tel Aviv, my cousin included,
and every Saturday night there'd be a big protest in
(25:48):
Tel Aviv. So I didn't run across this in my research,
but I looked it up, and yes, it was a
things are too expensive, cottage cheese being one of them,
cottage cheese being important into a lot of Israeli cuisine,
so it became kind of this cottage cheese protest.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Oh that is wild. Yeah, I didn't run across that either,
but that's that's a really cool cultural note.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, because that does happen. I feel like in
the US it kind of happened recently with eggs, Like
the price of eggs, it became a whole thing. So yeah,
thanks for letting goes.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
No, I'm not that, Kristen wrote. As soon as I
started the mocha pot episode, I ran to the kitchen
to pull out our collection to take a picture for
you guys. It's more of an accumulation than a collection.
I actually don't know how or why we have so many.
My husband is Cuban and a mocha pot better known
(26:45):
as a cafetta in Miami, is an integral part of
any Cuban kitchen. We moved last month and actually narrowed
our selection down to four in varying sizes. As you
mentioned in the episode, I agreed that Cuban coffee would
make a great episode topic. There's a whole method to
master to make legit Cuban coffee that involves pouring the
(27:05):
first few drops of the coffee as it's brewing, into
a little metal caraffe of sugar, and you stir it
vigorously into an airy paste, so when you pour the
rest of the coffee in, you get this perfect little
layer of sweet foam called esplumita on top. Every family
or office has one person who's the best at it,
so they always have to make the coffee. In my experience,
(27:26):
the preparation and drinking of cavazzito is a really special
communal activity or ritual. Mid morning at the hair salon,
mid afternoon at the office, or after dinner with the family,
the resident expert whips up a pot and walks around
pouring thimble sized shots of the strong, sweet good stuff
for everyone around. All this talk has me craving some
(27:47):
now time to go put on a pot. Oh yes, yep,
yeper's yeah. One of the few things, to be super honest,
that I miss about living in South Florida is the
absolute proliferation of amazing Cuban restaurants that have and write
really good Cuban coffee is.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So good, yeah, And I do love every time we
hear about these rituals where you're having these moments with people,
you're kind of slowing down and catching up and having coffee.
And I do love this. It's so true. There is
the person that makes the coffee. Even outside of this
(28:29):
and my friend group, one of my friend groups, we
have someone who does it, and I feel bad for her.
Sometimes You're like, you're just the best at it. Sorry,
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Why When I do it? It tastes worse, but it
does so please.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, yep, well yeah, all those dynamics are just really
beautiful to me.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, oh yeah, and right and then that like collection
of sights and sounds and smells and oh, it's just
it really is. It really is a ritual. And yes,
and the attached photo of just an array of coffee
making supplies is really cool.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I love I love that you downsized to only for
MUCHA pods.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yes, they all look very epic, as if they're going
into battle.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Oh yeah, you know they're prepared. They are prepared to
do their duty.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes, as they as they should be. Well, thank you
so much to both of these listeners for writing in.
If you would like to write to us, you can.
Our email is Hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
You can also find us on social media. We are
on Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod and we
do hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard thanks to you for listening,
(29:56):
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to favor prediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie Reach and I'm more in vocal Baum and
today we have an episode for you about SISO.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, a difficult one in some ways it was.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It was the reading for this one was a little
tough to track down, as it can be for some
types of produce that are just just really common. People
are like, oh, yeah, I don't need to write about that.
I just pick it out of the ground where it
grows everywhere. And compounding upon that, products that are not
(00:46):
from Europe are more difficult to read about in English.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, indeed they are. Indeed they are the lament of
a podcaster in the U. But was there a particular
reason this was on your mind, Lauren? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Was there? I should be more for this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
It's always a shocking question to you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh my goodness. Maybe I ordered sushi.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I think. I think it's been on the list for
a long time, and I had never suggested it before
because of the aforementioned difficulty in finding good sources about it.
But finally I was like, Eh, let's do it. Now
is the time, let's be.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Bold, being bold in the new year. And I have
to say I think I believe this is true. As
a team at Savor, we adore sheiso. Yeah, I think
that's correct. It's definitely one of the things. Like I
love siso a lot, and it's one of the things
that like, I'm still not sick of it on a
(01:56):
drink menu if I see it like like labeled as
like and it's garnished. Was she so?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm like that one. Whoever made that one knows what
I'm about.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It's just so nice. It's just so nice.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It is so nice, and I got all kinds of cravings.
I was not expecting doing this research because I'm like,
she's so pesto, right, Yes, I think I will.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I haven't even considered it before. I have some very
dear friends who who grow she so and gave me
a couple of plants last year, and so I had
fresh sheiso like all summer. I do have some some
fri cake. Was she so in it? And like it's
normal to just eat that out of the jar?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Right, I'm not going to tell you it's not normal.
Also normals overrated ah each year for out of the jar.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Lauren, I probably will indeed.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Also going along with the with the difficulty and reading
materials here. There's a bit of nomenclature difficulty in this episode.
So if you hear my initial definition of this culinary
ingredient and start wanting to argue with me about terminology,
(03:25):
I just ask that you wait until I expand upon
it in my more involved description, like a minute later,
and then if you want to argue with me, go
for it.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah. I used to love this doesn't happen so much anymore.
But when we first started, we'd get like an email
from a listener that would have a correction, and then
two minutes later they would respond and be like, oh
you answered, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You covered that, Okay, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Just give it some time. Just give it some time.
You never know what's going to come up in the
outline in the episode. So yeah, yeah, uh. For past episodes,
I would say the sushi can bear built episode.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Actually sure, yeah, other herbs like mint and basil.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, probably many other things, but those are top of mind.
We've done a lot of topics at this point. We have,
as it turns out, we have, which I guess brings
us to our question. Sure, she's so, what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well? She so is a type of large leafed herb
that comes in a few varieties that have a sort
of heart shape with serrated edges and can be green
to red violet to like deep purple in color, with
a set of flavors that will vary, but within a
complex of like cooling, pike and nutty, bittersweet, earthy, savory.
(04:58):
And I know that I just basically said all of
the flavors, but yeah, that's they can all be in there.
She so can be used raw in salads or as
an edible garnish or a leaf wrap. It can be pickled,
cooked in, cooked like a delicate green into dishes because
it is a delicate green ground and dried for using
condiments or steeped into drinks. The red purple varieties give
(05:22):
off a lot of like nice ruby to pink to
orange color in drinks and in a pickles or other ferments.
She still leaves add a really lovely offset to both
sweet and rich flavors that like herbal, slightly bitter nuttiness
just adds so much dimension to dishes it feels like
(05:45):
it feels like eating something out of a myth or
a fairy tale, kind of like a fay food, Like
you never know exactly what combination of flavors you're going
to get, but it's just real pleasant and feels a
little bit magical.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And generally very pretty. Oh yeah, I have kind of
a fairy tale look to it does. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, that just in pretty shape and those really pretty
like ruffled edges. Yeah. But yeah, linguistic confusion. So in
modern English, we tend to broaden the term sheiso to
mean any cultivar in the species Perilla fruituscans in Japanese,
which is where we borrowed the words sheiso from. I
(06:26):
think I'm correct in saying that she so specifically refers
to the all red or purple leaf cultivar variety crispa.
Japanese has other words for the green leaf and mixed
color leaf varieties, although those words are often a compound
building off of the words she so, although the sound
(06:49):
is transposed to giso in these compounds and other cultures
where these herbs have been used for a long time,
there are sometimes linguistic distinctions, Like I believe in both
Chinese and Korean, but I'm not totally positive because I'm
not I don't speak any of those languages anyway. Yeah,
the different varieties do have different traditional uses, and they
(07:12):
are all a single species because they can all interbreed.
And so, just as in our episodes on mint and
basil we covered different varietales of those things, we're gonna
do the same thing here. That's right, Yes, further linguistic confusion.
In English, you can also find Siso under the names
(07:35):
Perilla after the genus, or by the name the beefsteak
plant after the red purple color of some of their leaves,
and sometimes confusingly a sesame leaf, even though it's not
the leaf of a sesame plant.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I was looking where to buy some today and it
was named it was under the name sesame leaf.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yep. Fun stuff that makes our jobs easier. It's great,
it's still crazy, dream job, all right. So yes, botanical
name perilla fruituscans. She's is in the mint family alongside basil.
Those were related examples. The plants will grow to about
one to three feet tall, like up to a meter.
(08:18):
They have stiff, square shaped stems. The leaves are broad pointed.
OVAL's kind of heart shaped dish that can be pretty big,
like four to five inches long up to about twelve centimeters,
and different varieties do come in those different colors like
all red, purple, all green, or a combination of both.
The leaves can be flat or ruffled, some are a
(08:38):
little bit fuzzy, and yeah, each stem will send up
a tall flower shoot with many tiny white to pink
to purple flowers that, if pollinated, will each develop a
small dry seed pod. You can harvest the leaves as
they grow, or the whole plant if that's easier. The
leaves will die off during the winter. In warmer climates,
the plants can take root and back year after year,
(09:01):
but a frost will kill them, so in more temperate
climates they need to be replanted or broad inside for
the winter, which I wish I had looked up before
winter occurred here. Though apparently they self seed real easy,
so maybe my pot or like my lawn, we'll just
regrow itself come this spring. I will note here that
(09:21):
she so are fairly sturdy and easy to grow, as
many mint family plants are, and they do attract pollinators.
They're tasty weeds. Really. I do understand that Sheiso can
be toxic to grazing ruminants, though, so if you like
raise cattle or whatever, just watch out for that, especially
because yes, mint family plants can get invasive. The whole
(09:46):
plant is edible to humans, and the buds, flowers and
seed pods have similar flavors to the leaves and can
be used as herbs. The pretty little violet flowers are
sometimes used as sushi garnish. The seeds are sometimes dried
and ground to use as a seasoning or pressed for oil,
but those leaves are what people usually go for. Different
(10:09):
varieties and crops do have different flavors. You might have
a mix of like or like.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Comparative flavors that I read about in the past couple
days include mint, basil, cilantro, citrus, clove, annis, cinnamon, cuman,
and sesame. So there you go, clears it right up.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No less than Mark Bittman once described the aroma as
the smell of a mountain meadow after a rainstorm.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oo.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I almost use that for my poetical opening, but I
was like, no, Lauren, you you have your own poetry
to say.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, take that Mark Bitman, Yeah, who is he? The
green leaf varieties tend to be a little bit more
mild and grassy flavored. The red to purple ones tend
to be a little bit more like bright and bitter. Yeah,
(11:08):
the leaves are like tender crisp and texture like mintter basil,
but yeah bigger. Usually that they can be grown as
microgreens to be used as garnishes, and the larger leaves
are often sold in bunches or in like fresh packages. Yeah,
just the leaves green chies so can be used raw
as a leaf wrap for handheld foods like maybe like
(11:28):
a Korean style like plate of proteins and sides and
condiments where you make your own little tasty bites. It
can be used as the wrap on on gari, which
are Japanese style shaped and stuffed rice balls. It can
be an ingredient in Vietnamese style fresh rice paper rolls.
It's often used as a garnish or boundary on plates
(11:49):
of like sushi type dishes, and can also be an
ingredient in sushi rolls. It can be deep fried temporous style.
It can be marinated and preserved and like soy sauce
flavored with garlic and hot peppers for Korean ban chan.
And now that I've just said that paragraph out loud,
I realize where I got the idea for this episode,
and it's that I went to a really fun Vietnamese
(12:11):
restaurant and where you make your own little rice paper rolls,
and there was some chiso on the plate.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
There you go, there you go. I'm so jealous. I'm
jealous of that. I'm jealous of anybody who's enjoying any
of these dishers right now. So many crat VIGs.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, I really need to get some and make some
of that bon chan that is, yes, okay, but that's
all typical uses for green chiso. Red to purple chiso
is what makes a bunch of different pickled foods like
purply pink in color, like Japanese umubushi and pickled ginger
(12:50):
mubushi being salted pickled plums, they're pickled along with red
chizo leaves to give them this color they've got. By
the way, if you've never had an umubushi, they've got
like an amazing sweet, sour, salty flavor. And I understand
it's very grandparent coded of me to like them as
much as I do, but it just kind of goes
with my vibe. Pickle ginger, you know, is often what
(13:11):
you find is a sushi garnish. Pickled CHIESA leaves can
also be made and used on their own. Red chiza
is further chopped, dried, and used in some types of
seasonings like fri kake and shishimi tograshi, which is like
a seven spice blend. Hari Kake is a rice seasoning.
And yeah, the red purple ones are used to make
(13:31):
like bright, summery non alcoholic drinks. Acid helps to set
that like ruby pink color, So something like a lemonade
or like a shrub based cocktail like an apple cider,
vinegar or something works well. This is sometimes called schiso juice.
I've most often seen red chiso used in ice drinks,
(13:51):
but it can be made into hot teas as well,
And yeah, those are like traditional uses. But either whatever
color of chiso can be used for whatever you like.
I can't tell you what to do, no one really can.
The red type can make a whole dish kind of pinkish,
(14:12):
so if that's what you don't want, you don't use it.
But yeah, it's very nice as a garnish or like
a last minute addition to rice pastas other grain dishes,
on salads or soups. You can add some fresh to
dressings and dips. Pesto you can treat the leaves like
(14:32):
delicate grape leaves in making cooked wraps. You can add
them to other ferments like kimchi, or you can use
them as a garnish on cocktails or desserts.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
The possibilities are endless. I was talking about somebody who
may they make like pork shrimped dumplings. Yeah, and I
was so furious. I wasn't eating it as I was
reading about it. Yeah, sounds fantastic. Well, what about the
(15:05):
nutrition by itself? She so packs a lot of flavor
for a low chloric punch and does have some fiber
and good micronutrients. You're usually not eating enough to make
that much of a difference. But I will say that
different varieties have a long history of use in traditional
Chinese medicine and other medicinal traditions, perhaps especially as a
(15:26):
digestive aid. There is lots of research being done actually,
But yeah, saber motto, bodies are complicated and nutrition is complicated.
Before you ingest a medicinal amount of anything, you should
check with a medical doctor who is not us. Nope, Nope,
still haven't gotten that degree. Well, have a number ish
(15:50):
for you.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I tried, y'all, it's oh my goodness. Okay, yeah, No,
The one number I have for you is that taste
atless dot com currently as of January of twenty twenty
six has she so down as the number seven best
ranked HERB in the world. For whatever that means.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'm going to have to look at these rankings. Now
you've got me all curious. I didn't know this existed,
and now I need to know who's number one, which
herb is at the top. Well, we do have some
history for you, as convoluted as it may be.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
We do, and we're going to get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break for
a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and yes we are
back with the history. As Lauren said, this one was
kind of a pain because there was just a lack
of resources that I was able to find that were
legitimate resources frankly, honestly even like not so legitimate once.
(17:17):
So as always, you know, that's kind of the We
do run into this a lot with something that might
have been around for a while and people weren't writing about.
But also as English speakers and maybe there are more
resources in other languages. So if you do know more,
please let us know. Oh yeah, yeah, yes absolutely, but
(17:41):
here's what we have.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Historians believe that the shisho leif originated in China.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Perhaps specifically what's now southern China and me and mar
up through the Himalayas.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
The first known mention of sheisho is from a pharmaceutical
writing out of eleven hundred BC China. It grew wild
in ancient Japan, perhaps after being introduced by Chinese merchants,
but it was cultivated by the Japanese on a decent
scale by the seven hundred CE. According to a few sources,
it did take a while for shiso to be incorporated
(18:17):
into Japanese cuisine. Instead, the seed oil was used for lamps,
while the leaves were just not widely utilized. It was
kind of expensive though to make that oil and other
alternatives were found over time. However, once people discovered the
culinary uses of the leaves, it started appearing in more
and more food applications. At least one source I found
(18:40):
suggests that siso leaves have been found in Japanese pottery
from over twenty five hundred years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I read that as well. I also read the prehistoric
stashes of schiso seeds had been found in Korea, so.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Sheiso has been used both culinarily medicinally in parts of
East and Southeast Asia for hundreds of years, if not
much longer than that. A lot of the early medicinal
uses were allegedly for food poisoning, and some believe that
the antibacterial properties of the leaves were the reason it
was served with sushi, both to slow down spoilage of
(19:18):
the fish and prevent food poisoning. So yes, tracking down
specifics was very tricky for this one, but once people
got on board with eating sheis, so it ended up
in all kinds of dishes in many Asian countries that
had access to it. Stir fries, sushi noodles, marinated over
steamed rice as a sort of wrapper. It was stewed,
(19:41):
it was pickled, so many different preparations based on the
taste and ingredients of the region, as well as the
rietal being used. From what I read, the color might
have played into the presentation standpoint as well. The bright
pop of color, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
The first recipe for umiboshi made with bread chiso comes
from the seventeen hundreds, right around then may also when
schiso maki developed, which is a snack made with like
a sheiso leaf wrapped around a filling of miso paste,
with other stuff like a ground walnuts, sesame seeds, modernly
stuff like sugar and hot peppers. They're usually fried. And
(20:19):
this is the thing, out of all the things today
that I'm like, why have I ever had that? Why
am I not eating it right now?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Agreed? Agreed, Lauren. The leaf was introduced to the West
during the eighteen hundreds. This is when it was brought
to the US with Asian immigrants, and in some places
it was picked up as an ornamental plant.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, and it grows really easily in a lot of
America's climates, too easily, perhaps given the Yeah, as said above,
it's not good for grazing ruminants.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes, And in nineteen eighty four it was flagged as
an invasive species in Georgia or home state specifically. Large
scale cultivation of green shiso leaves in Japan really got
underway in the nineteen.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Sixties, and that is when one of the Japanese words
for culinary use, leaf shiso oba, came into use.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And this brings us to one of one of my
favorite parts. I wasn't expecting to research this. I've never
really considered it. But from what I understand, the green
plastic dividers with spiked edges that you might find separating
different types of sushi today if you get it delivered
to you or takeout or something like that were modeled
and or inspired by shiso leaves, or at least in
(21:38):
part because many also credit barren grass too. So there's
a couple of things, a couple of different leaves that
might have been the case, but sheiso comes up a lot.
So this usage of these types of plastic dividers in
sushi really started taking off in Japan in the nineteen
sixties when things like takeout Sushi, We're Exploding and you
(22:01):
can see our Conveyor Belt Sushi episode for more on
that and what was going on there. And so this
plastic grass was cheaper and easier to mass produce than
something like sheiso leaves. I also read the term she
so became popular in the US in the nineteen nineties
due to the growing popularity of sushi in the US.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, I do think that that's why I'm most familiar
with the name for this plant being shei so for
that reason, you know, like the spread of Japanese cuisine
and culture here in the US before other regional cuisines
that use it. So meanwhile, package tarikake was also taking
(22:44):
off in Japan around this time, the nineteen sixties to
seventies in all kinds of flavors. In nineteen seventy, the
brand Mishima debuted It's Yukari blend, which is red she
so leaf pickled with plum vinegar, than dried and ground
with salt. It's really lovely like herbal and fruity. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And then in two thousand and nine, Pepsi Japan released
a limited edition run of Schiso Pepsi, which people seem
to be into. If you've tried a listeners, let us know.
More and more American chefs and mixologists started using schiso
in their dishes and beverages in the US in the
(23:26):
early two thousands.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Dishes first there was going back to nineteen ninety five
in New York Times, articles cited sheiso as like a
hot new ingredient in the restaurant scene. And it was
a little bit later, I think for the cocktails, like
the twenty teens, there was a big Siso Garnish boom
in American cocktails like to the point. The Punch magazine
(23:48):
in twenty nineteen published this incredibly snarky obituary to Sheiso Garnish,
with its cause of death being over use.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think we had someone we were in Hawaii, absolutely
and some cocktails that had she said lethan I was.
I was in love with it. Obituary from me.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I was very pleased.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I still am, yes, exactly. Well, unfortunately, that's all we
have to say about she So for now. But we
would really really love to hear from you listeners if
you know anything we didn't mention, recipes, uses, memories.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
All, yes, yes, yes, yes please mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But that's what we have to say for now. M
h Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And we're back, Thank you, sponsors, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listeners.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
May love.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Lovely Okay, so Segal wrote, and I'm so sorry if
I mispronounced that, Just please write in and let me know.
Greetings from Israel. Hope you were doing good. I've just
finished listening to your episode about cottage cheese. I am
lactose intolerance, so I don't have anything to share about
the actual cheese, though I remember it fondly from the
(25:26):
days before being diagnosed. However, in Israel, the summer of
twenty eleven was labeled with the cottage cheese boycott in
Israel over the cost of living, starting with the cost
of the popular cottage cheese, and involved into people setting
up tents and Rothschild Boulevard and Tel Aviv, my cousin included,
and every Saturday night there'd be a big protest in
(25:48):
Tel Aviv. So I didn't run across this in my research,
but I looked it up, and yes, it was a
things are too expensive, cottage cheese being one of them,
cottage cheese being important into a lot of Israeli cuisine,
so it became kind of this cottage cheese protest.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Oh that is wild. Yeah, I didn't run across that either,
but that's that's a really cool cultural note.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, because that does happen. I feel like in
the US it kind of happened recently with eggs, Like
the price of eggs, it became a whole thing. So yeah,
thanks for letting goes.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
No, I'm not that, Kristen wrote. As soon as I
started the mocha pot episode, I ran to the kitchen
to pull out our collection to take a picture for
you guys. It's more of an accumulation than a collection.
I actually don't know how or why we have so many.
My husband is Cuban and a mocha pot better known
(26:45):
as a cafetta in Miami, is an integral part of
any Cuban kitchen. We moved last month and actually narrowed
our selection down to four in varying sizes. As you
mentioned in the episode, I agreed that Cuban coffee would
make a great episode topic. There's a whole method to
master to make legit Cuban coffee that involves pouring the
(27:05):
first few drops of the coffee as it's brewing, into
a little metal caraffe of sugar, and you stir it
vigorously into an airy paste, so when you pour the
rest of the coffee in, you get this perfect little
layer of sweet foam called esplumita on top. Every family
or office has one person who's the best at it,
so they always have to make the coffee. In my experience,
(27:26):
the preparation and drinking of cavazzito is a really special
communal activity or ritual. Mid morning at the hair salon,
mid afternoon at the office, or after dinner with the family,
the resident expert whips up a pot and walks around
pouring thimble sized shots of the strong, sweet good stuff
for everyone around. All this talk has me craving some
(27:47):
now time to go put on a pot. Oh yes, yep,
yeper's yeah. One of the few things, to be super honest,
that I miss about living in South Florida is the
absolute proliferation of amazing Cuban restaurants that have and write
really good Cuban coffee is.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So good, yeah, And I do love every time we
hear about these rituals where you're having these moments with people,
you're kind of slowing down and catching up and having coffee.
And I do love this. It's so true. There is
the person that makes the coffee. Even outside of this
(28:29):
and my friend group, one of my friend groups, we
have someone who does it, and I feel bad for her.
Sometimes You're like, you're just the best at it. Sorry,
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Why When I do it? It tastes worse, but it
does so please.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, yep, well yeah, all those dynamics are just really
beautiful to me.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, oh yeah, and right and then that like collection
of sights and sounds and smells and oh, it's just
it really is. It really is a ritual. And yes,
and the attached photo of just an array of coffee
making supplies is really cool.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I love I love that you downsized to only for
MUCHA pods.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yes, they all look very epic, as if they're going
into battle.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Oh yeah, you know they're prepared. They are prepared to
do their duty.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yes, as they as they should be. Well, thank you
so much to both of these listeners for writing in.
If you would like to write to us, you can.
Our email is Hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
You can also find us on social media. We are
on Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod and we
do hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard thanks to you for listening,
(29:56):
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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