September 11, 2024 • 38 mins
Whether in liquid or powder format, these long-lasting products add cream-like properties to coffee drinks and beyond without technically containing dairy. Anney and Lauren explore the science, history, and technicalities of non-dairy creamers.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Savor Prediction of iHeartRadio. I'm any
Recent and.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode for
you about non dairy creamers.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yeah. Yes, Was there any particular reason this was on
your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Nope, Nopeurse, I love it. Yeah, I think I had been.
I'd been looking for kind of weird like like like
product like industrial product brand kind of episodes and just
sort of came across the concept of non dairy creamers,
and my it was just one of those moments where
(00:44):
my brain was like, how do those work? What is
that about? Why? So here we are?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I feel like things like that, do uh catch your
interest Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Where it's like, h yeah, that sounds that sounds ridiculous
right in the name, Like what like what are we
doing there? Why did humans decide that that's a thing?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, And it's there's quite a lot going on. I'll say.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm not generally a creamer person. I'm a coffee black person.
Oh yeah, okay, okay, yes, but oh listeners of the
show will know I do not like grocery shopping, but
I am an expert at making grocery list so I
often make grocery lists for when we go on vacation
(01:39):
with my friends. Okay, yes, and I have learned I
have a section now that's like not for me.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
People want creamer.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah. Yeah, people who are into it are so into it,
and I respect that. I've never been. I it depends
on the coffee. For me, if coffee is good coffee,
Like if I've just like ground whole beans from a
decent source and I'm you know, drinking that, I'm a
(02:10):
coffee black person. But if it's not that, I usually
put some milk in it and buy milk. I mean,
at this juncture, extra creamy oat milk that is my
beverage of choice to adorn my coffee with.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
A dairy industry is gonna come knocking on your door, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm afraid. I am slightly afraid of the dairy industry.
Every time they come up, I'm like, wow, they are intense.
Okay that they are. Yeah, more on that in the
history section. But yeah, I know, very occasionally, like if
someone else has purchased a non dairy creamer and it's
in some kind of goofy flavor, I'll like look at
(02:53):
it and go like, I don't think I'm going to
enjoy that, but I'm definitely gonna try it. Yeah, I
just don't like sweet coffee as the thing. So anyway, Yeah,
I want to do better, right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I think I've talked about this before, but I have
a whole list of Star Wars cocktails. One of them
is a coffee based drink. I believe it does. Samantha
created it over from stuff I've never told you in
friend of the show. She created it, and I believe
it does have a non dairy creamer in it. It's
(03:31):
got something going on. But yeah, it's like not that's
a special occase and drink. I would not make it myself.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know it's they just they
they emulsify really well. They're not going to clump up
potentially with the addition of alcohol or something acidic the
way that dairy would.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Mmmmmmmm. Well see our past dairy episodes.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Sure, yeah, maybe like a karaginine other stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
That's a great record, I guess sure, there you go. Great,
that's a much better recommendation than other stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
See your other episodes. You get to pick and choose
your own adventure. Well, well, I guess this.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Brings us to our question, I guess it does non
dairy creamer what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, non dairy creamers are a more complicated version of
what it says on the box. They are stuff that
you can add to other things to make them creamier,
and they are not technically made of dairy. What they
are made of can vary. You're you're you're looking to
mimic the experience of cream, which is, you know, an
(04:58):
opaque white liquor with a smooth, rich, slightly sweet flavor
and texture. And you can get to there from like
a lot of different roots, but you've usually got some
kind of fat or fat substitute, some stabilizers and emulsifiers, colorants, sweeteners,
sometimes other flavorings, and often a key ingredient a cacinate,
(05:21):
which is a protein extracted from milk. You don't always
have that in there. There are some vegan versions, okay.
Non dairy creamers come into basic formats, powdered or liquid.
The powdered forms are shelf stable. The liquids more frequently
require refrigeration, but can come in shelf stable formulas too.
And yeah, they are used to add creamy texture and
(05:44):
flavor to hot or cold drinks, especially coffee, by either
manufacturers or consumers, and to bring that flavor and texture
to packaged foods during processing. When meant for coffee, they
do often come with the additional flavorings along the like
candy or dessert spectrum, like vanilla, hazelnut, chocolate, stuff like that.
(06:07):
And yet they're real convenient, especially when they're shelf stable,
and since they don't contain dairy, they can be suitable
for people who don't consume dairy for whatever medical or
other personal reason. They're like cream but not uh to
crib a line from Douglas Adams. They are almost, but
(06:28):
not quite entirely unlike cream. There they are earnestly this
scientific marvel of humans engineering a very basic agricultural product
out of a number of things up to and including
that product. They're like if Frankenstein's Monster made your coffee
(06:52):
taste like Girl Scout cookies.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
All that's a fun image in my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'm glad that was a fun one and not a
horrifying one.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No, because I like to think of him being like, oh,
would you like to try some hazelnut?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Thank you, thank you monster. Yeah, that's great, sounds lovely.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
A thing I didn't know is that these are sometimes
called coffee whiteners or lighteners, and those are just amazing terms.
I can't believe I've never heard him called that.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I heard that either, but it's like when you hear it,
you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I mean, I guess that's technically what it does. Sure, Yeah, okay,
let's talk about those ingredients. So first, first, this milk
derivative of caseinates. These are forms of casin that you
wind up with when you remove casin from milk. Casin
being the main protein in like milk and cheese. It's
(08:06):
also what makes milk opaque white. Once you've separated curds
from whey in milk, you can treat the curds to
extract the casin in a number of different ways that
give you these like slightly different casinate compounds. One called
sodium casinate is really popular because it plays so nice
with water. It's one that's usually dried and powdered. It's
useful as like an emulsifier and a stabilizer and adds
(08:30):
a little bit of color, and it shows up in
all kinds of processed foods like ice cream, cheese, margarine, chocolate, candies,
baked goods, protein supplemented stuff like protein powders or whatever,
and non dairy creamers, and the presence of caseinates is
why many non dairy creamer labels disclose that they contain
(08:51):
milk products. Most people who are intolerant of dairy have
a reaction to lac taste, which is a sugar in milk,
which would not be in a non dairy creamer unless
the manufacturer put it in there for some reason. But
caseinates can set off dairy allergies, so it's important to
note that that presence of milk products on the label,
(09:12):
and for you know, anyone who otherwise doesn't eat dairy. Yeah,
if you're making a vegan creamer, other proteins like pea
protein can be used instead. And if you're using a
base of like soy, almond or oat, you know, those
things all have some of those like color and stabilization
properties as well, and stuff like a gums or carre
gene can help with the texture. Other ingredients include sweeteners,
(09:34):
because cream is not bitter. Often you've got corn syrup
or derivatives thereof, or some kind of sugar free sweetener.
Then some kind of vegetable fat like from coconut, soy
or palm, then a multifying and stabilizing agents if it's
a powder, an anti caking agent, maybe additional colors and
or flavors. And yep, the shelf stable types are really
(09:56):
popular in specific foods service sectors like hotel and catering
and travel office supply, you know, because like you can
buy in bulk, you don't need to refrigerate it. You
don't need to worry about the product going off very
quickly and not which which brings like just I don't
really have like a like a science note about this,
but the the entire cost factor of these products is
(10:19):
super interesting to me because they are definitely more expensive
than fresh dairy in places where fresh dairy is available,
but they're considered a cheaper alternative because they last longer,
which I suspect to do to the sugar content. Yeah,
research has shown that liquid non dairy creamers can last
(10:40):
like forty five to ninety days in the fridge, and
that is certainly not how long cream lasts. So yeah,
sometimes with cream, I feel like you're lucky to get
a week.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
So I get home and it's already off.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
You're you're like, you're like how how why another thing
I have a suspicion about. Okay, this is my this
is my slight conspiracy theory of the episode. I suspect
that the reason that a lot of these like kind
of fancy flavored non dairy creamers are need to be
(11:20):
refrigerated is that, like they could have made them shelf stable,
but they wanted to put them next to the cream
in the supermarket.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oo.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Okay, I genuine that that's interesting. I genuinely think that's
what's up.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That's interesting. You're thinking about grocery placement. I had not
considered that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Okay, yeah, because a consumer might go like, oh, that
means that it's made of food and not industrial stuff, right, yeah, right, anyway, yeah,
it's I mean it could also there could also be
like a like a texture, flavor, consumer preference issue between
(12:04):
the shelf stable types and the refrigerated types. There is
a lot of research about that, by the way. Yep, anyway, Yeah,
these products are also used in food processing to add
creaminess to shelf stable packaged foods like dried powdered things
like soups, hot coca mixes, and liquid products like tea
and coffee drinks. You know, like a latte style things.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Mm hmm, okay, well what about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Oh, it can really vary depending on what the product
in question is made of. And and like, look, everyone's
got their own things going on. I mean, I mean,
like in general applicable to what we're talking about here today,
in terms of nutrition, we've all got different dietary and
(12:52):
lifestyle needs, right and speaking widely. When you have the
opportunity to consume foods that are less processed, that's probably
better for you. If you can use fresh cream or
like some kind of concentrated almond or coconut or say
or rice milk that has not been processed to be
(13:14):
shelf stable, that's going to be preferable in most dietary cases.
It's going to contain more stuff your body needs and
less stuff it doesn't. That being said, man, if something
more processed, like a non dairy creamer makes your life
easier or otherwise better, that's great. If putting like fat free,
(13:38):
sugar free peppermint mocha coffee mate in your morning coffee
makes you happy, I want you to do that every day.
Like we have to pick our battles in this world, y'all.
That got really existential for the non dairy creamer episode.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I feel like you're allowed about to lead me to
the gates more okay with my peppermint mocha coffee made. Yeah,
and then I'm like, wait peppermint.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Oh oh, it's like yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know what I mean. Well, we do have one
number for you.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
We do. Uh. The global market for non dairy creamers
is worth around two billion dollars a year or more
or less. I saw a bunch of different numbers. That's
as of twenty twenty three, and but everyone does agree
that's growing. Apparently China and Germany are really key growth
markets here we are. Yeah. I did read a number
(14:47):
of other numbers, but some of them seemed really suspect.
There was one There was one from Ansley brand website
that seemed to have like like it said. It said
like the statistic, and then in parentheses after the statistic
it said source question mark, which makes me think that
(15:08):
someone just pasted an editor's note that they needed to source. Yeah,
so I didn't. I didn't include that, probably for the best. Yeah,
but nslie.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Fix that and other things.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
A lot of other things probably yeah, yes, yeah, Well.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Uh, we do have quite some history behind this one.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We do, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
They we're back, Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay,
so separate episode slash episodes probably, probably, but the history
of plant based milk products goes way back. One of
the first known instances of it in the written record
appeared in fourteenth century CE out of China, referencing so
(16:14):
milk soy milk. Within a few centuries, milk made from
soybeans was a staple throughout the country, and it had
made its way to the US by eighteen ninety seven.
On the other hand, almond milk first popped up in
the written record in the thirteenth century and was an
ingredient in Egyptian cookbooks by the fourteenth century. This non
(16:37):
dairy product made its way to England by thirteen ninety,
where it was popular during wint lent comes up all
the time.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Sometime during the nineteenth century it had hopped over the
ocean to the United States, so the interest in non
dairy products like creamer has long been around since. If
not stored correctly, milk tends to spoil can make people sick.
We've done a lot of episodes about that. With urbanization
(17:10):
and industrialization in places like the US, there was a
lot of interest in figuring out an alternative, perhaps especially
amongst Seventh day Adventists, and there were some well known
people pushing for these non dairy options, including Henry Ford,
who in a nineteen twenty one article said, quote, our
(17:32):
laboratories have already demonstrated that cow's milk can be done
away with and the concentration of the elements of milk
can be manufactured into scientific food by machines far cleaner
than cows and not subject to tuberculosis.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I mean, yeah, Henry heck and Ford, y'all.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
It's he shows up all the time. I mean, i mean,
he definitely. You know, he's certainly the most anti Semitic
person who ever revolutionized industry.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So so keep that in the back of your head.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, Okay, that's a different show. That's a
number of different shows, probably, But yeah, no, he didn't
like cows. He didn't like horses, and he didn't like cows.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
He didn't like horses either, that's true, which is part
of where the car goes.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yes, yeah, he was like these are inefficient. We could
be doing everything more efficiently.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Let's get rid of these horses. Let's get rid of
these cows.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Well, about a decade later after he made this statement,
he built a soy milk plant in Dearborn, Michigan. At first,
its primary purpose was research, and none of the resulting
soy milk was sold. During World War II, one of
the developers of the process took over production and started
selling the soy milk. If you want, there is a
(19:03):
lot more. There's a lot more minutia, like very specific
detail about everybody who worked there and what they ended
up doing. But yeah, they were doing they were really
experimenting with it and seeing what they could do with it.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
But stepping back a bit, the Kelloggs, Yes, those kell
Hoogs come up in this history too. In nineteen oh four,
Seventh Day Adventist and wife of doctor John Harvey Kellogg,
Ella Kellogg debuted the first known recipe for non dairy
whipped cream. Yep, she did a bunch of other stuff
(19:40):
after that too, but that was kind of her start,
And yeah, a bunch of non dairy innovations followed in
the pursuing decades. Non dairy frosting, non dairy cottage cheese,
things like that. Okay, so yes, as we kind of
alluded to earlier, obviously, the dairy industry historically haven't been
(20:03):
the biggest fans of this.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
No, that's like putting it mildly.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Beginning in at least nineteen forty five, the dairy industry
started issuing lawsuits around non dairy products. One of the
first flurry of lawsuits began after the American entrepreneur Bob
Rich invented a soy based whipped topping also called coffee whiener.
(20:30):
Not only was it a dairy substitute, it had the
positive that it could be whipped after being frozen, meaning
he could ship his product across the country, which apparently
he discovered by.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Accident and was like, oh yes, oh yes.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
The dairy industry fired back with a whopping forty two
lawsuits alleging that it was an imitation dairy product. Rich's
legal team successfully won every case by arguing it was
not imitating but a replacement. Yes, and that did happen
over I think several decades, but it happened over, it
(21:09):
didn't happen immediately.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
But yeah, yeah, you can see have we done an
episode on Margarine? Am I imagining that? Was that a fever?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I believe we have?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Okay, yeah, but well, if we'd have, then you can
see our episode on Margarine for more on that. If not,
then we'll have to do one in the future.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yes, another fun messing with the dairy industry.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Note the date of the beginning of this flurry of
lawsuits nineteen forty five, because during World War Two a
lot of dairy went towards the soldiers fighting overseas, leading
to an increased demand for a substitute. Yes, non dairy
coffee creamer debuted in the nineteen fifties, the first becoming
(21:54):
commercially available in nineteen fifty. It was a product called
Mocha Mixed Coffee Creamer later renamed Mocha Mix Non Dairy Creamer,
and it was a product of a company called Presto
Food Products, and a few others followed over the ensuing decade.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah. Simultaneously, other companies developed powdered cream not non dairy
like actual cream products, for example pream They Yeah, yeah,
they never really worked as well, and they did disappear
over the next decade or so. But uh, one hundred percent.
(22:32):
I included this note. Well, it's interesting, but also because
of the name Pream, I just wanted. I wanted to
say the name Pream. It's one of those mid century
product names that I'm like, I'm like, am I am
I am? I in fallout? Right now? Is this a joke?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
No, you were serious. Oh you were deadly serious about Pream.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I love it. Oh, I love it, so I am.
I'm glad you included it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Carnation debuted Coffee Mate in nineteen sixty one. Still, though
non dairy creamer was illegal in some states until the
nineteen seventies due to that whole imitation argument.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Beautiful Nesle's brand Cremora, launched in South Africa in nineteen
seventy and much later became became an important part of
the toolkit of home pyrotechnic enthusiasts because non dairy creamer
(23:40):
powders are highly flammable when they are airborne. If you
get enough air mixed in there, you can just set
them right on fire and create a huge fireball. And
that is still in some places, regardless of the brand
you use, referred to as a Cremora fireball.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Wow. I did not know this.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Don't try that at home, kids. Annie's absolutely about to
try that. Would never try that in an open area
outside with safety equipment and an adult.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I don't count as the adult. You don't. That's fair,
that's fair, that's fair, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Okay, moving on. In the nineteen eighties, amid concerns about
cholesterol from animal fats having a negative effect on cardiovascular health,
there was a huge boom in consumer use of non
dairy creamers and rel non dairy product products like the
aforementioned margarine. Of course, a lot of them were and
(25:06):
are made with hydrogenated vegetable oils, which we now know
are also bad.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So yep. And then in recent years, due to the
rise of lactose intolerance, veganism and vegetarianism and shifting preferences,
non dairy creamer has seen significant growth.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. Globally, there's also an increasing middleish class of people
who are more able to spend money on small luxuries
like coffee drinks, and so you know, we've seen an
expansion of some of these brands into those developing markets.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So yeah, right, And Lauren and I were talking about before,
because I tried to get to the bottom of how
we ended up with just like a Shmorgus board of
all of these different flavored little coffee creamers at gas stations.
And you made the excellent point that it probably has
(25:59):
to do also with the rise of things like Starbucks
or yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That entire cafe culture and like sweetened coffee products specifically.
And yeah, I mean I don't know, you know, like
a lot of people, you know, for a lot of humans,
like bitter is not a preferred flavor, and so if
you're drinking coffee, you want to sweeten it a little
bit or make it creamy or both, or flavor it
with something like Girl Scout cookies. And and yeah, that's
(26:27):
that's a normal human thing to want to do. And
treats are nice, as we say all the time, and
if it feels like a treat, you're probably more likely
to buy it.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yes, because I was saying, like, even if I don't
put creamer in a lot of times, I'll be like, oh.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
We'll get that flavor.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, yes, it feels so special even though it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, we are very easily like most humans, we are
very easily led by marketing.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
That is true. That is true.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Or just something that I'm like, oh, I've never had
that flavor before. Let's see how like, Oh no, I
don't like it, but I'm glad I tried it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Well, that being said, I would love to hear from listeners.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
From around the world.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Oh yeah, different of these flavors, these non dairy creamer flavors.
If you have favorites, if you have anything that's really
unique that you've.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Tried, if you yeah, if you absolutely despise them.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Sure we send us those strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yes, always, always, always, But I think that's what we
have to say about non dairy creamers for now.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It is. We do already have some listener mill for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And we're back. Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listnoo fake is Tine giving you a
nice little top off of your Cooper. I'm ready for Halloween.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I know, because I complained about Christmas encroaching too early,
and here I'm like Halloween.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh yeah, no, September first is Halloween time.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
A lot of diesel probably be a little coated towards Halloween.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I knew you would be all right.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Eric wrote the Prickly Pair episode was fun, at least
one circus elephant of fun. I've never had anything sweet
with it, but it sounds wonderful, especially that lemonade. I've
had it in tacos before, and it added this really
unique flavor. It was a pork taco and a soft
flower shell with just a little cootilla and grilled prickly
(29:09):
pear gave it a real nice sort of earthiness. The
restaurant also had a prickly pear sasa. It hit differently
and in a good way. It had this full bodied
savoriness to it that you just wanted to eat slowly
and really savor the taste. Unfortunately, the restaurant is nowhere
near me, being about nine hours away.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I have seen frozen paddles of it in stores occasionally,
and after hearing this episode, I'm going to keep my
eyes open and get some. Next time, I'll grill it
up and make my own tacos and salsa. Learning more
about Joyce Chen was interesting. I recall her name, but
I cannot recall the show at all. I have had
(29:54):
one of the stir fryands for over thirty years now,
since we always had an electric range and that worked
better than a walk.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Treat it right and it will last. Finally, as promised,
the cookie table from my daughter's wedding this weekend. Yes,
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
The first shot is a wide shot of the initial setup.
We had someone refreshing the cookies as they went down.
The second is a close up to show the Pittsburgh theme,
a bridge and Mister Rogers trolley. I only had a
brief time to get these shots. The table was refreshed
probably every five minutes for over an hour. We had
boxes off to the side for people to take them home.
(30:35):
All in all, still a smaller one that probably totaled
about one hundred and fifty to one and seventy five dozen.
We did cheat on a few as we got some
smiley faced cookies which are symbolic of the area from
the restaurant, as well as getting specially made Terrible towel cookies.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
You can see the smiley faced ones on the bridge.
If you zoom into the bridges in the middle of
the first you can see the towels. Look this is
an amazing cookie setup.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh yes, I love that y'all had a system.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, this sounds it sounds like it's necessary.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Like a like a veritable ballet of cookies was occurring here,
a smaller one that only totaled one hundred and seventy
five dozens.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
A dozen is what threw me.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So good, Oh my gosh. It also congratulations to your
daughter and the whole family. That's that's yes, that's lovely.
And what a great excuse for a cookie table.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, and I didn't realize that was mister Rogers and
the trolley until you mentioned it.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Also re see again above Halloween. Those candles, a set
of three candles a vibe for me haunted.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Perhaps I've never heard of terrible towel cookies before, but
but yeah, I haven't heard.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Of them either, But I am intrigued. I like it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
It is apparently it pit's from a very brief Google search.
It appears to be a thing, and I believe it's
related to the stealers.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
All right, I yeah, that makes sense, but we'll have
to look into it. We'll have to investigate further on that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Absolutely breaking down the important questions. Yeah, Julie wrote, I
just listened to the prickly pear cactus episode and had
to write in again. With all the topics you cover
that I've never heard of, I enjoy when you cover
one that I actually have quite a bit of experience with.
Having been with my Mexican husband for almost twenty years,
(32:55):
I've eaten and prepared so much nopalles. It's one of
my husband's favorite foods. We usually buy the cactus leaves
from our local Hispanic grocery, where they have already removed
the spines. I have a few ways that we cook them.
One is to make several cuts lengthwise from the tip
to around two thirds of the length, and then grill
them until slightly charred. They're less slimy. This way. We
(33:15):
usually serve them along with carne sada, salsa, guacamali, and
whatever other sides we've prepared. Another common preparation is cactus salad.
Cut the cactus into strips about a quarter inch thick
by half an inch long, Boil for a few minutes.
It will darken in color when cooked. Make sure you
watch the pan while it's boiling, because it can easily
boil over. Not sure why, but whatever makes it slimy
(33:35):
builds up on top of the water.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'll leave it to.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Luren to figure out the science. Anyway. After it's boiled,
let it cool in a bowl in the fridge. Once cooled,
add dice tomatoes, onions, chops, the Lontro helipen you if
you want. I've seen people add diced radish too eat cold.
One final preparation my husband has made was boiling it
like you would for salad, but then adding it to
a frying pan with cooked codfish and a Gohio chili salsa.
(34:01):
I know this is already long, but I wanted to
let you know I was in Atlanta again last week.
Four years ago. I traveled there for the first and
only other time, and had written to you to ask
for recommendations and places to eat and what to see.
Annie was kind enough to send me her map, which
I used both times, since COVID hit right after I
got home last time. I don't think I ever wrote
that first trip to tell you all the places I
(34:22):
ate at and saw from your map. If I remember correctly,
I tried sublime donuts, Chai pani, a lot of fruita
and pancake social. Not sure if that one was on
your list, but you had mentioned it on the show.
I also visited the Aquarium, World of Coke In, the
Center for Civil and Human Rights, Ponsti Market, and crog
Street Market. I figured it was better late than never
to finally let you know this time. When I went,
(34:43):
I didn't have a rental car, so I did mostly
Uber Eat deliveries to the hotel, but did ride Marda
out to qua Quong bon Me and out to East
Lake to Lafonda, Latina. Because Chuck and Josh recommended it
on their Salsa episode. I ordered in from Chai Pani,
Pancake Social and des To Ethiopian Kitchen. Wanted to thank
you again for your recommendations. Everything was delicious. Oh and
(35:06):
I also got to see all the MLK Junior Historical
Sites and the Oakland Cemetery this visit. Oh wow, Lot,
you're busy.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Heck, yes, hats off to you.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, yeah, all of that is fabulous though. Oh man, Yeah, oh,
I'm glad that you got got some takeout from Desta Desta's.
I love Ethiopian and we've got some really good Ethiopian
restaurants around town. That's that's an excellent one. Good humans too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I had some for my birthday near ish. I was like,
you know what, yeah, I really wants.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
So yeah, oh yeah, and right, all of those places
are are lovely filled with lovely humans and an Oakland Cemetery.
If you couldn't tell about me from being I don't know.
Maybe maybe I don't mention that I'm goth that often
on the show, but I'm a little bit heck in
goth and so yeah, Oakland Cemetery is one of my
(36:02):
favorite places around town.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
They know you're a vampire, Lauren. You're not fooling anyone anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Look, just because I don't go out in the sun
and I can't eat garlic doesn't mean.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I mean it's a little suspicious.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Low. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
We've talked about this before, but this is one of
our favorite things about this show is how eager people
are to share, like, yeah, you're.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Going to where I'm from, We've got to try this.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And it's something when we were traveling, like every time
we would get to a new city, someone would be like, immediately,
here's where you gotta go.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah. We would be like in the lift on the
ride to the hotel and the driver would be like,
oh man, or like the it's always the first team
and that we interact with in a new city. We're like,
we just got here. They're like, let me tell you
what to eat?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
So good.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, So it's nice to be on that other side
for someone.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Also, all of these cactus recipes.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh yes, oh my goodness. We do have a lot
of really good Hispanic grossers around town and so I
will need to look out for them in those.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yes, yes, oh I can't wait. I can't wait. Well.
Thank you to both of those listeners for writing in.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
If you would like to write to us, you can
Our email is hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod, and we do hope to
hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks us always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah,
Hello, and welcome to Savor Prediction of iHeartRadio. I'm any
Recent and.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode for
you about non dairy creamers.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yeah. Yes, Was there any particular reason this was on
your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Nope, Nopeurse, I love it. Yeah, I think I had been.
I'd been looking for kind of weird like like like
product like industrial product brand kind of episodes and just
sort of came across the concept of non dairy creamers,
and my it was just one of those moments where
(00:44):
my brain was like, how do those work? What is
that about? Why? So here we are?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I feel like things like that, do uh catch your
interest Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Where it's like, h yeah, that sounds that sounds ridiculous
right in the name, Like what like what are we
doing there? Why did humans decide that that's a thing?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, And it's there's quite a lot going on. I'll say.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm not generally a creamer person. I'm a coffee black person.
Oh yeah, okay, okay, yes, but oh listeners of the
show will know I do not like grocery shopping, but
I am an expert at making grocery list so I
often make grocery lists for when we go on vacation
(01:39):
with my friends. Okay, yes, and I have learned I
have a section now that's like not for me.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
People want creamer.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah. Yeah, people who are into it are so into it,
and I respect that. I've never been. I it depends
on the coffee. For me, if coffee is good coffee,
Like if I've just like ground whole beans from a
decent source and I'm you know, drinking that, I'm a
(02:10):
coffee black person. But if it's not that, I usually
put some milk in it and buy milk. I mean,
at this juncture, extra creamy oat milk that is my
beverage of choice to adorn my coffee with.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
A dairy industry is gonna come knocking on your door, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm afraid. I am slightly afraid of the dairy industry.
Every time they come up, I'm like, wow, they are intense.
Okay that they are. Yeah, more on that in the
history section. But yeah, I know, very occasionally, like if
someone else has purchased a non dairy creamer and it's
in some kind of goofy flavor, I'll like look at
(02:53):
it and go like, I don't think I'm going to
enjoy that, but I'm definitely gonna try it. Yeah, I
just don't like sweet coffee as the thing. So anyway, Yeah,
I want to do better, right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I think I've talked about this before, but I have
a whole list of Star Wars cocktails. One of them
is a coffee based drink. I believe it does. Samantha
created it over from stuff I've never told you in
friend of the show. She created it, and I believe
it does have a non dairy creamer in it. It's
(03:31):
got something going on. But yeah, it's like not that's
a special occase and drink. I would not make it myself.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know it's they just they
they emulsify really well. They're not going to clump up
potentially with the addition of alcohol or something acidic the
way that dairy would.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Mmmmmmmm. Well see our past dairy episodes.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Sure, yeah, maybe like a karaginine other stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
That's a great record, I guess sure, there you go. Great,
that's a much better recommendation than other stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
See your other episodes. You get to pick and choose
your own adventure. Well, well, I guess this.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Brings us to our question, I guess it does non
dairy creamer what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, non dairy creamers are a more complicated version of
what it says on the box. They are stuff that
you can add to other things to make them creamier,
and they are not technically made of dairy. What they
are made of can vary. You're you're you're looking to
mimic the experience of cream, which is, you know, an
(04:58):
opaque white liquor with a smooth, rich, slightly sweet flavor
and texture. And you can get to there from like
a lot of different roots, but you've usually got some
kind of fat or fat substitute, some stabilizers and emulsifiers, colorants, sweeteners,
sometimes other flavorings, and often a key ingredient a cacinate,
(05:21):
which is a protein extracted from milk. You don't always
have that in there. There are some vegan versions, okay.
Non dairy creamers come into basic formats, powdered or liquid.
The powdered forms are shelf stable. The liquids more frequently
require refrigeration, but can come in shelf stable formulas too.
And yeah, they are used to add creamy texture and
(05:44):
flavor to hot or cold drinks, especially coffee, by either
manufacturers or consumers, and to bring that flavor and texture
to packaged foods during processing. When meant for coffee, they
do often come with the additional flavorings along the like
candy or dessert spectrum, like vanilla, hazelnut, chocolate, stuff like that.
(06:07):
And yet they're real convenient, especially when they're shelf stable,
and since they don't contain dairy, they can be suitable
for people who don't consume dairy for whatever medical or
other personal reason. They're like cream but not uh to
crib a line from Douglas Adams. They are almost, but
(06:28):
not quite entirely unlike cream. There they are earnestly this
scientific marvel of humans engineering a very basic agricultural product
out of a number of things up to and including
that product. They're like if Frankenstein's Monster made your coffee
(06:52):
taste like Girl Scout cookies.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
All that's a fun image in my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'm glad that was a fun one and not a
horrifying one.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
No, because I like to think of him being like, oh,
would you like to try some hazelnut?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Thank you, thank you monster. Yeah, that's great, sounds lovely.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
A thing I didn't know is that these are sometimes
called coffee whiteners or lighteners, and those are just amazing terms.
I can't believe I've never heard him called that.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I heard that either, but it's like when you hear it,
you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I mean, I guess that's technically what it does. Sure, Yeah, okay,
let's talk about those ingredients. So first, first, this milk
derivative of caseinates. These are forms of casin that you
wind up with when you remove casin from milk. Casin
being the main protein in like milk and cheese. It's
(08:06):
also what makes milk opaque white. Once you've separated curds
from whey in milk, you can treat the curds to
extract the casin in a number of different ways that
give you these like slightly different casinate compounds. One called
sodium casinate is really popular because it plays so nice
with water. It's one that's usually dried and powdered. It's
useful as like an emulsifier and a stabilizer and adds
(08:30):
a little bit of color, and it shows up in
all kinds of processed foods like ice cream, cheese, margarine, chocolate, candies,
baked goods, protein supplemented stuff like protein powders or whatever,
and non dairy creamers, and the presence of caseinates is
why many non dairy creamer labels disclose that they contain
(08:51):
milk products. Most people who are intolerant of dairy have
a reaction to lac taste, which is a sugar in milk,
which would not be in a non dairy creamer unless
the manufacturer put it in there for some reason. But
caseinates can set off dairy allergies, so it's important to
note that that presence of milk products on the label,
(09:12):
and for you know, anyone who otherwise doesn't eat dairy. Yeah,
if you're making a vegan creamer, other proteins like pea
protein can be used instead. And if you're using a
base of like soy, almond or oat, you know, those
things all have some of those like color and stabilization
properties as well, and stuff like a gums or carre
gene can help with the texture. Other ingredients include sweeteners,
(09:34):
because cream is not bitter. Often you've got corn syrup
or derivatives thereof, or some kind of sugar free sweetener.
Then some kind of vegetable fat like from coconut, soy
or palm, then a multifying and stabilizing agents if it's
a powder, an anti caking agent, maybe additional colors and
or flavors. And yep, the shelf stable types are really
(09:56):
popular in specific foods service sectors like hotel and catering
and travel office supply, you know, because like you can
buy in bulk, you don't need to refrigerate it. You
don't need to worry about the product going off very
quickly and not which which brings like just I don't
really have like a like a science note about this,
but the the entire cost factor of these products is
(10:19):
super interesting to me because they are definitely more expensive
than fresh dairy in places where fresh dairy is available,
but they're considered a cheaper alternative because they last longer,
which I suspect to do to the sugar content. Yeah,
research has shown that liquid non dairy creamers can last
(10:40):
like forty five to ninety days in the fridge, and
that is certainly not how long cream lasts. So yeah,
sometimes with cream, I feel like you're lucky to get
a week.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
So I get home and it's already off.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
You're you're like, you're like how how why another thing
I have a suspicion about. Okay, this is my this
is my slight conspiracy theory of the episode. I suspect
that the reason that a lot of these like kind
of fancy flavored non dairy creamers are need to be
(11:20):
refrigerated is that, like they could have made them shelf stable,
but they wanted to put them next to the cream
in the supermarket.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oo.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Okay, I genuine that that's interesting. I genuinely think that's
what's up.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That's interesting. You're thinking about grocery placement. I had not
considered that.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Okay, yeah, because a consumer might go like, oh, that
means that it's made of food and not industrial stuff, right, yeah, right, anyway, yeah,
it's I mean it could also there could also be
like a like a texture, flavor, consumer preference issue between
(12:04):
the shelf stable types and the refrigerated types. There is
a lot of research about that, by the way. Yep, anyway, Yeah,
these products are also used in food processing to add
creaminess to shelf stable packaged foods like dried powdered things
like soups, hot coca mixes, and liquid products like tea
and coffee drinks. You know, like a latte style things.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Mm hmm, okay, well what about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Oh, it can really vary depending on what the product
in question is made of. And and like, look, everyone's
got their own things going on. I mean, I mean,
like in general applicable to what we're talking about here today,
in terms of nutrition, we've all got different dietary and
(12:52):
lifestyle needs, right and speaking widely. When you have the
opportunity to consume foods that are less processed, that's probably
better for you. If you can use fresh cream or
like some kind of concentrated almond or coconut or say
or rice milk that has not been processed to be
(13:14):
shelf stable, that's going to be preferable in most dietary cases.
It's going to contain more stuff your body needs and
less stuff it doesn't. That being said, man, if something
more processed, like a non dairy creamer makes your life
easier or otherwise better, that's great. If putting like fat free,
(13:38):
sugar free peppermint mocha coffee mate in your morning coffee
makes you happy, I want you to do that every day.
Like we have to pick our battles in this world, y'all.
That got really existential for the non dairy creamer episode.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I feel like you're allowed about to lead me to
the gates more okay with my peppermint mocha coffee made. Yeah,
and then I'm like, wait peppermint.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Oh oh, it's like yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know what I mean. Well, we do have one
number for you.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
We do. Uh. The global market for non dairy creamers
is worth around two billion dollars a year or more
or less. I saw a bunch of different numbers. That's
as of twenty twenty three, and but everyone does agree
that's growing. Apparently China and Germany are really key growth
markets here we are. Yeah. I did read a number
(14:47):
of other numbers, but some of them seemed really suspect.
There was one There was one from Ansley brand website
that seemed to have like like it said. It said
like the statistic, and then in parentheses after the statistic
it said source question mark, which makes me think that
(15:08):
someone just pasted an editor's note that they needed to source. Yeah,
so I didn't. I didn't include that, probably for the best. Yeah,
but nslie.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Fix that and other things.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
A lot of other things probably yeah, yes, yeah, Well.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Uh, we do have quite some history behind this one.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We do, and we are going to get into that
as soon as we get back from a quick break
forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
They we're back, Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay,
so separate episode slash episodes probably, probably, but the history
of plant based milk products goes way back. One of
the first known instances of it in the written record
appeared in fourteenth century CE out of China, referencing so
(16:14):
milk soy milk. Within a few centuries, milk made from
soybeans was a staple throughout the country, and it had
made its way to the US by eighteen ninety seven.
On the other hand, almond milk first popped up in
the written record in the thirteenth century and was an
ingredient in Egyptian cookbooks by the fourteenth century. This non
(16:37):
dairy product made its way to England by thirteen ninety,
where it was popular during wint lent comes up all
the time.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Sometime during the nineteenth century it had hopped over the
ocean to the United States, so the interest in non
dairy products like creamer has long been around since. If
not stored correctly, milk tends to spoil can make people sick.
We've done a lot of episodes about that. With urbanization
(17:10):
and industrialization in places like the US, there was a
lot of interest in figuring out an alternative, perhaps especially
amongst Seventh day Adventists, and there were some well known
people pushing for these non dairy options, including Henry Ford,
who in a nineteen twenty one article said, quote, our
(17:32):
laboratories have already demonstrated that cow's milk can be done
away with and the concentration of the elements of milk
can be manufactured into scientific food by machines far cleaner
than cows and not subject to tuberculosis.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I mean, yeah, Henry heck and Ford, y'all.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
It's he shows up all the time. I mean, i mean,
he definitely. You know, he's certainly the most anti Semitic
person who ever revolutionized industry.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So so keep that in the back of your head.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, Okay, that's a different show. That's a
number of different shows, probably, But yeah, no, he didn't
like cows. He didn't like horses, and he didn't like cows.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
He didn't like horses either, that's true, which is part
of where the car goes.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yes, yeah, he was like these are inefficient. We could
be doing everything more efficiently.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Let's get rid of these horses. Let's get rid of
these cows.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Well, about a decade later after he made this statement,
he built a soy milk plant in Dearborn, Michigan. At first,
its primary purpose was research, and none of the resulting
soy milk was sold. During World War II, one of
the developers of the process took over production and started
selling the soy milk. If you want, there is a
(19:03):
lot more. There's a lot more minutia, like very specific
detail about everybody who worked there and what they ended
up doing. But yeah, they were doing they were really
experimenting with it and seeing what they could do with it.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
But stepping back a bit, the Kelloggs, Yes, those kell
Hoogs come up in this history too. In nineteen oh four,
Seventh Day Adventist and wife of doctor John Harvey Kellogg,
Ella Kellogg debuted the first known recipe for non dairy
whipped cream. Yep, she did a bunch of other stuff
(19:40):
after that too, but that was kind of her start,
And yeah, a bunch of non dairy innovations followed in
the pursuing decades. Non dairy frosting, non dairy cottage cheese,
things like that. Okay, so yes, as we kind of
alluded to earlier, obviously, the dairy industry historically haven't been
(20:03):
the biggest fans of this.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
No, that's like putting it mildly.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Beginning in at least nineteen forty five, the dairy industry
started issuing lawsuits around non dairy products. One of the
first flurry of lawsuits began after the American entrepreneur Bob
Rich invented a soy based whipped topping also called coffee whiener.
(20:30):
Not only was it a dairy substitute, it had the
positive that it could be whipped after being frozen, meaning
he could ship his product across the country, which apparently
he discovered by.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Accident and was like, oh yes, oh yes.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
The dairy industry fired back with a whopping forty two
lawsuits alleging that it was an imitation dairy product. Rich's
legal team successfully won every case by arguing it was
not imitating but a replacement. Yes, and that did happen
over I think several decades, but it happened over, it
(21:09):
didn't happen immediately.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
But yeah, yeah, you can see have we done an
episode on Margarine? Am I imagining that? Was that a fever?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I believe we have?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Okay, yeah, but well, if we'd have, then you can
see our episode on Margarine for more on that. If not,
then we'll have to do one in the future.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yes, another fun messing with the dairy industry.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Note the date of the beginning of this flurry of
lawsuits nineteen forty five, because during World War Two a
lot of dairy went towards the soldiers fighting overseas, leading
to an increased demand for a substitute. Yes, non dairy
coffee creamer debuted in the nineteen fifties, the first becoming
(21:54):
commercially available in nineteen fifty. It was a product called
Mocha Mixed Coffee Creamer later renamed Mocha Mix Non Dairy Creamer,
and it was a product of a company called Presto
Food Products, and a few others followed over the ensuing decade.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah. Simultaneously, other companies developed powdered cream not non dairy
like actual cream products, for example pream They Yeah, yeah,
they never really worked as well, and they did disappear
over the next decade or so. But uh, one hundred percent.
(22:32):
I included this note. Well, it's interesting, but also because
of the name Pream, I just wanted. I wanted to
say the name Pream. It's one of those mid century
product names that I'm like, I'm like, am I am
I am? I in fallout? Right now? Is this a joke?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
No, you were serious. Oh you were deadly serious about Pream.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I love it. Oh, I love it, so I am.
I'm glad you included it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Carnation debuted Coffee Mate in nineteen sixty one. Still, though
non dairy creamer was illegal in some states until the
nineteen seventies due to that whole imitation argument.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Beautiful Nesle's brand Cremora, launched in South Africa in nineteen
seventy and much later became became an important part of
the toolkit of home pyrotechnic enthusiasts because non dairy creamer
(23:40):
powders are highly flammable when they are airborne. If you
get enough air mixed in there, you can just set
them right on fire and create a huge fireball. And
that is still in some places, regardless of the brand
you use, referred to as a Cremora fireball.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Wow. I did not know this.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Don't try that at home, kids. Annie's absolutely about to
try that. Would never try that in an open area
outside with safety equipment and an adult.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I don't count as the adult. You don't. That's fair,
that's fair, that's fair, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Okay, moving on. In the nineteen eighties, amid concerns about
cholesterol from animal fats having a negative effect on cardiovascular health,
there was a huge boom in consumer use of non
dairy creamers and rel non dairy product products like the
aforementioned margarine. Of course, a lot of them were and
(25:06):
are made with hydrogenated vegetable oils, which we now know
are also bad.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So yep. And then in recent years, due to the
rise of lactose intolerance, veganism and vegetarianism and shifting preferences,
non dairy creamer has seen significant growth.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah. Globally, there's also an increasing middleish class of people
who are more able to spend money on small luxuries
like coffee drinks, and so you know, we've seen an
expansion of some of these brands into those developing markets.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So yeah, right, And Lauren and I were talking about before,
because I tried to get to the bottom of how
we ended up with just like a Shmorgus board of
all of these different flavored little coffee creamers at gas stations.
And you made the excellent point that it probably has
(25:59):
to do also with the rise of things like Starbucks
or yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That entire cafe culture and like sweetened coffee products specifically.
And yeah, I mean I don't know, you know, like
a lot of people, you know, for a lot of humans,
like bitter is not a preferred flavor, and so if
you're drinking coffee, you want to sweeten it a little
bit or make it creamy or both, or flavor it
with something like Girl Scout cookies. And and yeah, that's
(26:27):
that's a normal human thing to want to do. And
treats are nice, as we say all the time, and
if it feels like a treat, you're probably more likely
to buy it.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yes, because I was saying, like, even if I don't
put creamer in a lot of times, I'll be like, oh.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
We'll get that flavor.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, yes, it feels so special even though it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, we are very easily like most humans, we are
very easily led by marketing.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
That is true. That is true.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Or just something that I'm like, oh, I've never had
that flavor before. Let's see how like, Oh no, I
don't like it, but I'm glad I tried it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Well, that being said, I would love to hear from listeners.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
From around the world.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Oh yeah, different of these flavors, these non dairy creamer flavors.
If you have favorites, if you have anything that's really
unique that you've.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Tried, if you yeah, if you absolutely despise them.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Sure we send us those strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yes, always, always, always, But I think that's what we
have to say about non dairy creamers for now.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It is. We do already have some listener mill for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
And we're back. Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you, and
we're back with listnoo fake is Tine giving you a
nice little top off of your Cooper. I'm ready for Halloween.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I know, because I complained about Christmas encroaching too early,
and here I'm like Halloween.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh yeah, no, September first is Halloween time.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
A lot of diesel probably be a little coated towards Halloween.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I knew you would be all right.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Eric wrote the Prickly Pair episode was fun, at least
one circus elephant of fun. I've never had anything sweet
with it, but it sounds wonderful, especially that lemonade. I've
had it in tacos before, and it added this really
unique flavor. It was a pork taco and a soft
flower shell with just a little cootilla and grilled prickly
(29:09):
pear gave it a real nice sort of earthiness. The
restaurant also had a prickly pear sasa. It hit differently
and in a good way. It had this full bodied
savoriness to it that you just wanted to eat slowly
and really savor the taste. Unfortunately, the restaurant is nowhere
near me, being about nine hours away.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I have seen frozen paddles of it in stores occasionally,
and after hearing this episode, I'm going to keep my
eyes open and get some. Next time, I'll grill it
up and make my own tacos and salsa. Learning more
about Joyce Chen was interesting. I recall her name, but
I cannot recall the show at all. I have had
(29:54):
one of the stir fryands for over thirty years now,
since we always had an electric range and that worked
better than a walk.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Treat it right and it will last. Finally, as promised,
the cookie table from my daughter's wedding this weekend. Yes,
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
The first shot is a wide shot of the initial setup.
We had someone refreshing the cookies as they went down.
The second is a close up to show the Pittsburgh theme,
a bridge and Mister Rogers trolley. I only had a
brief time to get these shots. The table was refreshed
probably every five minutes for over an hour. We had
boxes off to the side for people to take them home.
(30:35):
All in all, still a smaller one that probably totaled
about one hundred and fifty to one and seventy five dozen.
We did cheat on a few as we got some
smiley faced cookies which are symbolic of the area from
the restaurant, as well as getting specially made Terrible towel cookies.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
You can see the smiley faced ones on the bridge.
If you zoom into the bridges in the middle of
the first you can see the towels. Look this is
an amazing cookie setup.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh yes, I love that y'all had a system.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, this sounds it sounds like it's necessary.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Like a like a veritable ballet of cookies was occurring here,
a smaller one that only totaled one hundred and seventy
five dozens.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
A dozen is what threw me.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So good, Oh my gosh. It also congratulations to your
daughter and the whole family. That's that's yes, that's lovely.
And what a great excuse for a cookie table.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, and I didn't realize that was mister Rogers and
the trolley until you mentioned it.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Also re see again above Halloween. Those candles, a set
of three candles a vibe for me haunted.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Perhaps I've never heard of terrible towel cookies before, but
but yeah, I haven't heard.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Of them either, But I am intrigued. I like it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
It is apparently it pit's from a very brief Google search.
It appears to be a thing, and I believe it's
related to the stealers.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
All right, I yeah, that makes sense, but we'll have
to look into it. We'll have to investigate further on that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Absolutely breaking down the important questions. Yeah, Julie wrote, I
just listened to the prickly pear cactus episode and had
to write in again. With all the topics you cover
that I've never heard of, I enjoy when you cover
one that I actually have quite a bit of experience with.
Having been with my Mexican husband for almost twenty years,
(32:55):
I've eaten and prepared so much nopalles. It's one of
my husband's favorite foods. We usually buy the cactus leaves
from our local Hispanic grocery, where they have already removed
the spines. I have a few ways that we cook them.
One is to make several cuts lengthwise from the tip
to around two thirds of the length, and then grill
them until slightly charred. They're less slimy. This way. We
(33:15):
usually serve them along with carne sada, salsa, guacamali, and
whatever other sides we've prepared. Another common preparation is cactus salad.
Cut the cactus into strips about a quarter inch thick
by half an inch long, Boil for a few minutes.
It will darken in color when cooked. Make sure you
watch the pan while it's boiling, because it can easily
boil over. Not sure why, but whatever makes it slimy
(33:35):
builds up on top of the water.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'll leave it to.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Luren to figure out the science. Anyway. After it's boiled,
let it cool in a bowl in the fridge. Once cooled,
add dice tomatoes, onions, chops, the Lontro helipen you if
you want. I've seen people add diced radish too eat cold.
One final preparation my husband has made was boiling it
like you would for salad, but then adding it to
a frying pan with cooked codfish and a Gohio chili salsa.
(34:01):
I know this is already long, but I wanted to
let you know I was in Atlanta again last week.
Four years ago. I traveled there for the first and
only other time, and had written to you to ask
for recommendations and places to eat and what to see.
Annie was kind enough to send me her map, which
I used both times, since COVID hit right after I
got home last time. I don't think I ever wrote
that first trip to tell you all the places I
(34:22):
ate at and saw from your map. If I remember correctly,
I tried sublime donuts, Chai pani, a lot of fruita
and pancake social. Not sure if that one was on
your list, but you had mentioned it on the show.
I also visited the Aquarium, World of Coke In, the
Center for Civil and Human Rights, Ponsti Market, and crog
Street Market. I figured it was better late than never
to finally let you know this time. When I went,
(34:43):
I didn't have a rental car, so I did mostly
Uber Eat deliveries to the hotel, but did ride Marda
out to qua Quong bon Me and out to East
Lake to Lafonda, Latina. Because Chuck and Josh recommended it
on their Salsa episode. I ordered in from Chai Pani,
Pancake Social and des To Ethiopian Kitchen. Wanted to thank
you again for your recommendations. Everything was delicious. Oh and
(35:06):
I also got to see all the MLK Junior Historical
Sites and the Oakland Cemetery this visit. Oh wow, Lot,
you're busy.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Heck, yes, hats off to you.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, yeah, all of that is fabulous though. Oh man, Yeah, oh,
I'm glad that you got got some takeout from Desta Desta's.
I love Ethiopian and we've got some really good Ethiopian
restaurants around town. That's that's an excellent one. Good humans too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I had some for my birthday near ish. I was like,
you know what, yeah, I really wants.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
So yeah, oh yeah, and right, all of those places
are are lovely filled with lovely humans and an Oakland Cemetery.
If you couldn't tell about me from being I don't know.
Maybe maybe I don't mention that I'm goth that often
on the show, but I'm a little bit heck in
goth and so yeah, Oakland Cemetery is one of my
(36:02):
favorite places around town.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
They know you're a vampire, Lauren. You're not fooling anyone anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Look, just because I don't go out in the sun
and I can't eat garlic doesn't mean.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I mean it's a little suspicious.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Low. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
We've talked about this before, but this is one of
our favorite things about this show is how eager people
are to share, like, yeah, you're.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Going to where I'm from, We've got to try this.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And it's something when we were traveling, like every time
we would get to a new city, someone would be like, immediately,
here's where you gotta go.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah. We would be like in the lift on the
ride to the hotel and the driver would be like,
oh man, or like the it's always the first team
and that we interact with in a new city. We're like,
we just got here. They're like, let me tell you
what to eat?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
So good.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, So it's nice to be on that other side
for someone.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Also, all of these cactus recipes.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh yes, oh my goodness. We do have a lot
of really good Hispanic grossers around town and so I
will need to look out for them in those.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yes, yes, oh I can't wait. I can't wait. Well.
Thank you to both of those listeners for writing in.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
If you would like to write to us, you can
Our email is hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook,
and Instagram at saver pod, and we do hope to
hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks us always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
that lots more good things are coming your way.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah,
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Dylan Fagan
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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