March 6, 2026 • 35 mins
This complexly savory liquid seasoning is often made with only two ingredients: fish and sea salt. Anney and Lauren get lost in the history and science of nước mắm -- Vietnamese fish sauce.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello and loom to save your protection of iHeartRadio. I'm
any Res.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode
for you about Vietnamese fish sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lord?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Uh, Nope, I don't think so. Or maybe, Okay, so
I might have I might have mentioned this in another episode.
But I had a couple of friends in town and
went out to like a late night Atlanta Vietnamese spot
with them, and we walked in and this this just lovely, savory,
(00:44):
slightly sweet smell of the ocean hit me immediately upon entering,
and I was like, oh, this is going to be
a good meal. And I've been thinking about fish sauce
ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I do not blame you, as I was telling you
before we started recording. I love Vietnamese food, and this
fish shauce ends up in a lot of it. Yeah,
And so the cravings are all over the It's just
all kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
One of the things that we had that night was
little rice paper rolls that you roll up at the table.
You know, they give you like a little dunking station
for your for your rice paper sheets. And then you
just you know, pull together. They give you like a
platter of grilled meats and herbs and stuff, and you
just make your own and and just a nice little
(01:43):
dip in some nook chum And.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, I make that at home all the time, by
the way. Yeah, yeah, the little rice pistols love nice
light freshing lunch.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, sort of like a salad.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yes, I love them. I love them. Oh so craving Sclore.
Well for past episodes, Garum, I would say, totally, yeah,
ketch up kind of Worcester sauce, Exo sauce, soy sauce
and chovies fuh bond.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Me Yeah, yeah, definitely all of those.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, we've covered a lot of ground. Well, I guess
that brings us to our question. Sure me'se fish sauce?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, Vietnamese fish sauce, or in Vietnamese nu mom is
a type of liquid seasoning made from salted, fermented fish,
and apologies for my Vietnamese throughout, I do not have
much experience with this language and it probably shows anyway.
So anchovies are the most common fish this is made with. Traditionally,
(03:06):
sea salt and fish are the only two ingredients with
enzymes contained in the fish, plus friendly bacteria doing the
work over several months to a couple of years to
break the fish down into a liquid, and then producers
separating that from the remaining solids. And what you wind
up with is this lovely, like amber colored sauce that's thin, inconsistency,
(03:31):
and just packed with like savory, salty, funky, rich flavor
with just a little like fruity sweetness to it. It's
used to season savory dishes and to make the popular
table condiment and dipping sauce Nouk Chalm, which is fish
sauce thinned and flavored with like water, sugar and lime
juice or white vinegar plus stuff like garlic and chilies.
(03:54):
Straight fish sauce is a wallop, just like a one
bottle umami bomb. It's sort of like when you're playing
in the ocean under the hot sun and you get
slapped in the face with a wave and it's just joyous,
like the ocean is playing too.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, lovely, it's lovely, so nice, Oh my gosh. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
In order to understand more about what we're looking at, though,
let's talk about how fish sauce is made. So You
start with fresh fish, fresh whole fish, and you layer
them with salt. You traditionally do this in vessels like
terra cotta pots or wooden barrels. Those wooden barrels can
be like as tall as a person and as wide
(04:42):
as a person in diameter, just absolutely huge. And this
process is a precisely controlled breakdown of the fish by yes,
both enzymes from the fishes intestines, which is why they
need to be whole and friendly bacteria. But first, the
heavy salting draws water out from the fish and helps
(05:03):
break down some cell walls, releasing those enzymes that help
the process along further. And while this is happening, the
salt also prevents unfriendly bacteria from growing until there's enough
water for the bacteria that you actually want to start growing. Together,
the enzymes and bacteria break down proteins in the fish
into things like amino acids, glutenic acids, and other building
(05:26):
blocks that will give the final product all of those
deep savory flavors. As with any fermentation process, every piece
of the puzzle here matters. You know, the ratio of
salt to fish, the temperature, the humidity, the total length
of the ferment and fish sauce can be in progress
for like months to years. During that time, depending on
(05:47):
the recipes of the region, or the company or the
person who is making it. At various points in the process,
the mixture might be stirred or absolutely not stirred. The
vessels might be drained of liquid and then have that
liquid poured back in at the top. The vessels might
be moved into and out of the sunlight. More salt
or brine might be added. When it's ready, the mixture
(06:11):
is drained to obtain liquid, which is filtered to obtain
fish sauce. The first draw is considered the best. After
that you can add brine to a barrel to obtain
further draws of liquid. On the label a fish sauce
might indicate whether it's first draw and like the type
of fish that it's made from. You might also see
a number on the label expressed as something like twenty
(06:33):
and per liter. That will indicate the nitrogen level of
the product, which is an indication of the amount of
breakdowns of stuff that occurred during fermentation. A higher number
is generally considered better. Honestly, anything above forty is kind
of showing off your mileage. May vary, though twenty to
forty is great. Fish sauce is also produced industrially with
(06:56):
the aid of starter cultures or added enzymes to like
speed along the process and improve yields, or can be
made using added flavorings or preservatives as as you might
be able to tell here because this is a natural product.
Vietnamese fish sauces can have lots of different flavors and
(07:17):
like kind of characters depending on the region the producer,
even the particular barrel. Other fishing cultures around Southeast Asia
and the Pacific do make fish sauces as well. Vietnamese
types tend to be a little bit like lighter and
with that slightly sweet finish in contrast to a lot
of kind of like stronger, darker, more salty or savory types. Yeah,
(07:44):
the European Union has granted a protected designation of Origin
or PEDO to fish sauce, specifically from Fuquok I also
heard fu Walk. I don't speak Vietnamese. Here we are
This is the largest island in Vietnam. It's located a
little to the west of Vietnam in like in the
Gulf of Thailand, kind of closer to the south coast.
(08:04):
Of Cambodia. They source the salt used in this fish
sauce from specific coastal areas of Vietnam. They fish the
anchovies from specific waters. The anchovies begin their salting process
on the boats that have caught them at specific ratios
of salt to fish. They're fermented in local forest hardwood barrels.
I love a pedio process, and further, I am not
(08:28):
the only person excited about fermentation. In twenty twenty five,
the newspaper Vietnam News quoted this artisan producer by the
name of Win Van Wa, saying each barrel of fish
sauce is like a living being. It requires care, patients
and respect for the sea's rhythm. When you open the
(08:49):
barrel after twelve months, what you get is not just
fish sauce. It's the spirit of the island.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I love the right.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
To a person, and I mean, like, I know that
there's a little bit of marketing involved in this, but like,
but like to a person, everyone that I read or
watched a video of talking about the production process was
poetic about it. It was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yes, people do really care about it.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean we talk about Yeah, I
mean it is kind of the backbone of Vietnamese cooking.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So yeah, M well, what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Uh, you know, a little bit goes a long way,
so you're probably not consuming that much. But but they can.
Fish sauces can contain like kind of a lot of protein.
They do also tend to be high in sodium, so like,
watch out for that. If that's something you're watching out for.
You drink some water, yes, yes, always, Well, we do
(09:54):
have some numbers for you, m M. The global market
for fish sauces in general is worth around eighteen billion
dollars a year, like seventeen to eighteen and that's including Vietnamese,
Thaie and Filipino sauces. Vietnam and Thailand are the largest
exporters of fish sauces around the world. Vietnam exports a
(10:15):
little bit over twelve percent of its fish sauce, mostly
to the Asian market. As of twenty twenty five, production
in Fuquak was about fifteen to twenty million liters a
fish sauce a year. That's like fourty five million gallons
At any given time. They've got about seven thousand fermentation
(10:37):
barrels in the works, overseen in some one hundred facilities
by one thousand workers, and that is only a drop
in the fish bucket. Of the total of four thoy
two hundred facilities throughout Vietnam that produce some three hundred
and eighty million liters or one hundred million gallons of
(10:58):
fish sauce per year. Nearly half of that is consumed nationally. Wow, yep,
yep urs uh huh good. At least one hundred and
forty eight strains of bacteria have been isolated from fish
sauce fermentation tanks, with different types of bacteria living at
(11:22):
different levels within the tanks.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I love this. That's cool.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Oh and I didn't say it before, So bacteria poop
there you go? Yeah yeah. The first Fish Sauce Festival
in Vietnam happened in Hutchimen City across five days in
October of twenty twenty four. There were educational and culinary
demonstrations and a lot of food and drink, including apparently
(11:51):
fish sauce coffee.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I know, right, I've heard of putting salt in your coffee.
I kind of enjoy it when a coffee tastes a
little bit like a turkey dinner, so I feel like
I would dig this.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I can see it working, you know, I can see it.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Fo Quack held their own Fish Sauce Festival for the
first time last year in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
In the summer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There were demonstrations of fishing and salting and sauce extraction,
plus music and cooking contests. I couldn't find out that
much more about it, but it sounds delightful.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That sounds, yes, delightful. Uh, listeners, once again, if you
happen to have gone.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Oh my goodness, what us No, please, absolutely, all the time,
all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, well, we do have quite a history for you.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh we do, and we are going to get into that.
But first we are going to get into a quick
break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So,
like Lauren, I do not speak Vietnamese, but I'm gonna
try my best. Yeah, just try our best to get
through this. It's gonna be great. Yeah, be great. Yeah.
All right, So a lot of the basics here we
did discuss in our episode on Garum, which was a
(13:26):
fish sauce enjoyed by the ancient Romans and Greeks, which
is the huge people really really really want to recreate it. Yes.
By this point, humans had generally learned that salt caring
foods could help preserve them. In the case of garum,
that meant salting small fish, adding maybe some herbs in
(13:47):
there for flavor to make a fermented sauce that could
be added to all kinds of things. During the Roman Empire,
the Spanish exported high quality garam to parts of Europe,
including Greece and and also Egypt. Factories producing garum opened
in other countries in North Africa and other places in Europe,
though the type of small fish in question would differ
(14:10):
based on location. In recent pushes to recreate garam, those
involved in trying to recreate it have cited Vietnamese fish
sauce as being the closest available substitute, and some suggest
that garum may have been a part of Vietnamese fish
sauce's history. Huh so. The history of fish sauce in
(14:34):
Vietnam is very hard to pin down, but historians think
that it arrived in Vietnam and Asia in general from
Rome via the Silk Road, or that these sauces arrived
thanks to the ancient Greeks or Vietnam and pockets of
Asia at large pioneered their own fish sauces, and neither
(14:55):
Rome nor Greece had anything to do with it. Some
think that making fish sauce was already a practice in Vietnam,
but that yes, the sauce from Rome influenced some of
their sauces, or that soy sauce from China was the
primary influence, which itself dates back to ten forty six
(15:16):
to two hundred and fifty six BCE, or that it
was so ubiquitous this fish sauce that people simply didn't
write about it until much later, so we just don't know,
or also possibly that a fish sauce arrived through a
trade route from Mesopotamia, where people were making fish sauces
(15:39):
as far back as three thousand BCE. So oh, yeah,
we a lot of options could be a I think
a pick and choose.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, yeah. I as with a lot of especially fermented
products like this, it kind of like you have fish
you have sea salt, because you had to get the
fish from the sea, and it kind of makes sense
to put them together to preserve them.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
So yes, especially since at its base form it is
those two ingredients. Yep. Yeah, So whatever the case, Vietnamese
fish sauce goes back at least at least three hundred years.
The largest ethnic population of Vietnam, the Keen, adopted local
(16:23):
fish sauce making techniques from localized groups into their cooking
and dishes. Anchovies so see your anchovy episode, but yes,
to make this sauce. Black anchovies are other small fish
that were available in the waters near Vietnam. Were caught,
salted and put in a container, either a wooden barrel
(16:44):
or something ceramic or something possibly clay. The fish was
then traditionally fermented for several months, maybe up to a year,
with occasional stirring. That's what I read. But as Lauren said,
stirring maybe not. While specific variants did pop up based
(17:05):
on taste and ingredients, some of these fish sauces were sweeter,
some were sour, some saltier. It was more of a
proportion thing than anything else. The basic fish sauce generally
stayed the same, in part because it was fairly simple
in terms of what it required. People had their own
recipes that they passed down across generations with tweaks in
(17:28):
terms of flavor preference. But what really hammered home its
popularity was how it could go into pretty much anything.
If you had a solid based recipe for this fish sauce,
then there you go. It could transform your food with
just a couple of drops. Allegedly, when colonizers arrived in
(17:50):
Vietnam in the sixteenth century, they avoided fish sauce, so
it became kind of an indicator of being Vitnamese, especially
because it was used in all kinds of Vietnamese dishes.
As we discussed in the Fu and Bondme episodes, early
French colonizers did have an influence on Vietnamese cuisine, but
(18:11):
a lot of those dishes still incorporated Vietnamese fish sauce.
This is also around the time ingredients like chili peppers
were introduced to Vietnam, which some people did include in
some of the variants of fish sauce.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Apparently, one of the things that brought fish sauce to
the attention or interest of Europeans was when in nineteen
eighteen a researcher working with the French pasteur Institute in
Sagon looked into the production and chemical composition of fish
sauce and published this bulletin about it being like a
(18:47):
good source of amino acids that was during a time
when people were really cluing in to nutrients in foods
and so. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Interesting, hmm. One of the largest producers of fish sauce
in Vietnam, Fong Hung, opened in nineteen fifty and the
fish used in their sauce was is primarily composed of
black anchovies and smaller white anchovies. At first, the fish
were fermented in barrels made of the wood from the
(19:20):
Boila tree, but they had to start importing the wood
from Cambodia when the tree became endangered in Fuquak National
Park where they had previously gotten it. The temperature and
overall environment like the humidity play a role in the
sauce as well. As you said, Lauren, this is around
the time that more people outside of Vietnam started to
become acquainted with this sauce. Vietnamese refugees coming to America
(19:44):
during or after the Vietnam War in the nineteen seventies
also brought their taste for fish sauce with them. However,
in the early days, it wasn't easy to recreate or
obtain in the United States.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, the US government enacted an embargo against trade with
the Vietnam in nineteen seventy five. That only started to
be lifted in nineteen ninety four, and like really lasted
through two thousand and one, so during that whole time
you couldn't really import it.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah. The founder of Red Boat Fish Shaus, Quang Fom,
arrived in the US from Vietnam in nineteen seventy nine,
and he ran into this problem when he visited Vietnam
in two thousand and five, he tried a fish shauce
that was so good he snuck some back into the
United States and he gave some to his mother, who,
(20:35):
according to him, started crying after tasting it, presumably because
she had not had it in so long. A year later,
Fom left a well paying tech job to start producing
his own fish shaus in the United States under the
name Red Boat Fish Shaus.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
This is one that you're going to see on a
lot of story shelves around the United States. It's very popular.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yes. As Vietnamese fish sauce grew more popular globally, a
number of bad or even just lazy players entered the market,
using low quality fish and an ingredients, sometimes even trying
to pass their products off as being from Fuquok when
they were not, and Fuqualk is kind of like where
you are looking to get it from. Yeah yeah. Starting
(21:24):
in the two thousands, big companies jumped on the bandwagon
as well, and then in twenty twelve, Fuquok Fish Sauce
received a PDO of Protected Designation of Origin from the
European Union. In twenty twenty one, it was recognized as
a National and Tangible Cultural heritage. The twenty fifteen award
(21:46):
winning novel The Sympathizer by Viet Tan Yuen featured this quote, Oh,
fish sauce, how we missed it, dear aunt, How nothing
tasted right without it? How we longed for the grand
crew of Fuquok Island and its bat brimming with the
finest vintage of pressed anchovies. The book is a thriller
and an examination of identity that takes place after the
(22:08):
fall of Saigon. I believe it's also a mini series
on HBO. Anyway, it's a big deal. Yeah, yes, ooh,
another big deal. When then President Barack Obama tried a
bowl of rice from Chili and pork in Honois in
twenty sixteen alongside Anthony Bourdain, Bourdaine described the main flavor
(22:30):
profile as Vietnamese fish sauce. After trying it, Obama declared
this is killer.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
In twenty twenty, a number of industry experts got together
to form a trade organization called the Vietnam Traditional Fish
Sauce Association. Today, some research is going into developing bacterial
cultures to help standardize and speed up fish sauce fermentation.
This is a little bit controversial, but you know, could
(23:00):
could help the industrial side along.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A combination of climate change and over fishing has negatively
impacted the anchobe population in the waters near Vietnam, which
in turn has impacted the production of Vietnamese fish sauce
the country MH.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
But government and industry leaders have proposed building a museum
in food clock to promote like cultural and economic expansion,
the Fuquock Traditional Fish Sauce Craft Museum.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I am on board, right, I am on board. There's
a part of me that's like, does that mean I
get to help make fish sauce? But then I've also
I've heard mixed things about how the smell during the process.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Actually, I've I've heard it can be quite strong like
in I mean, like look like any fishing area, like
any any area that has a heavy fishing industry. You
can get some fish smell occurring, but I from what
I understand, in a good facility, you know, like the
same way that in any place of fermentation, like you're
(24:14):
gonna get some weird, funky smells, but it should basically
smell clean and a little bit like whatever it is
you're fermenting, and in this case, yeah, that's fish. So
there's going to be a fish smell. But I've heard
it described as a strong but actually quite pleasant.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Okay, I'm into it. Like I said, I would go
to this museum in a heartbeat and try try to
help make some.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, get me, get me in there.
I Oh my goodness, I love visiting.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Oh I miss our. I miss our field trips. I
miss going to to to see yogurt and cheese and
and all kinds of alcohol getting made. So fun, this
smell of fresh yogurt being made at a large scale
is one of the most beautiful things in the universe, y'all.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
It was really good. It was really good. The sound
of butter being church.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Turned large metal slightly terrifyings.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yes, yes, as sound people. I don't know about you, Lauren,
but I'm always every time I hear a sound.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I'm like, that would be good and yeah, yeah, that's
a weird one. Mark that one down.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Exactly. Well. I think that's what we have to say
about Vietnamese fish shaws for now. It is.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
We would love to hear from you, though, if you
have memories, if you have dishes, if you have been
to any of these facilities, we would love to hear
about it. In the meanwhile, we do already have some
listener mail for you, though, and we are going to
get into that as soon as we get back from
one more quick break for a word from our sponsors,
(26:15):
and we're back.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with
a listener.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
So wonderful summer day with the Waves.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Julie wrote after your episode about pineapple cakes. I was
at Costco and had to try them. They are really good.
I can't remember exactly how much they cost, but I
think it was between fifteen to twenty dollars. The crust
is crumbly and does taste a bit like shortbread. The
filling is very dense. Just wanted to share that they're
available at Costco so other people are able to find them.
(26:56):
Since even if you aren't located in an area with
Asian groceries near by. Most people live close to a costco.
Ooh good tip. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised, but hey, right, oh,
I love it. I love that though. That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Oh man, I haven't I haven't been in a costco
in too long. I need to go and buy. I
mean not that I have like a lot of storage
space for large amounts of things, but like, yeah, it's
a wonderful place to be slightly overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Indeed, I've got some costco friends and I like to
go with them because I feel like they can guide me.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Right, right, You really need someone who's familiar and can
help you navigate, because otherwise you're just lost in the stacks,
the giant, giant stacks.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, I'll never never find us again.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
They'll find me amongst the ketchups.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
They say, she's still there. Oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Heather wrote first on spruce Beer. We have several Norway
spruce trees that surround our house and lust Spring, my spouse,
inspired by just in the Trees, decided he wanted to
gather some spruce tips and try making spruce beer. After
procuring the required equipment for home brewing. The batch bubbled
away happily on the counter until it was time to
bottle it. The result was delicious, even if it had
(28:26):
more of a kick than we were expecting. He also
made tea and syrup from the spruce tips. The tea
was quite refreshing with a lemony flavor. I canned some
of the spruce syrup for him, and when we opened
a jar to go some pancakes recently, it was like
a bite of spring in the dark winter. The Rye
Whiskey episode brought up some fun memories from College. Washington, Pennsylvania,
(28:48):
where I went to College, is home to the David
Bradford House and other sites related to the Whisky Rebellion.
Bradford was heavily involved in the Whisky Rebellion, and his
house is now a museum. When I was in school,
the history club was involved in a yearly reenactment of
his escape from federal troops, and one year I got
to dress up as a frontiersman and with muzzleloader in hand,
(29:09):
be part of the group that warned him so that
he could make his escape. At that time, the house
was situated between a state liquor store and a bar,
which definitely added to the atmosphere. That little reenactment has
become a large, multi day festival instead of a pet tax.
I've attached a picture of some discharge papers for someone
(29:30):
who served in the Whiskey Rebellion that I was rehousing
at work. It's not often work in the Archives connects
to a food podcast, but I'm glad it did.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's awesome. Oh, that's so cool, fantastic. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I love historical cosplay. It makes me really happy.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, I love it. And I love your work in
the archives. Yes, yes, I intersected with food history. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh my goodness. And also all of this about spruce
tips sounds so delightful. Oh man, oh man, I need
to I need to do some online ordering of more
food products from various places.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Indeed, which brings us to do you want to give
you up toy? Lauren? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Sure. So I can't remember if I mentioned on the
show or if I was just talking to Annie about it,
but I think I mentioned, uh. Yeah, Like, I've been
like like plotting my own personal red beans and rice
adventure and I cooked this weekend and it was extremely
successful and it's not really red beans and rice like
(30:47):
that anyone would really recognize, because like I can't eat
onions or bell peppers. But but yeah, like I bought
some Camellia brand beans and some nice long grain or rice,
and some Polish style smoked sausages and some really good
smoky bacon, and I cooked up over the course of
(31:11):
I don't know, like five hours of cooking time and
nine hours of soaking, a really nice.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Dish that is so hot, so good. I'm so happy
with myself.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I add a lot of hot sauce to it, yes,
but yeah, so like my vegetable base as always was
carrots and celery. I added some tomatillos, which is one
of my favorite ways to get like a little bit
of like I don't know, just like just like to
replace a bell pepper kind of vibe.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, a few of those.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Habanero and yeah, a bunch of fresh thyme dried basil,
because I noticed that basil was an ingredient on the
cookie mix that Camillia sent me a little bit of
cayenne something that I'm probably forgetting. I actually wrote it down,
(32:11):
you guys. I'm so excited. I like took out one
of my thousands of notebooks that are just rotting slowly
in a drawer somewhere and wrote down what I did.
So if you really want to know, I can tell you.
Oh man, I recommend cooking things for like five hours
so much. It's so nice, it's so like mindful. It's
really grounding for me. And then you get to eat
(32:34):
food at the end of it.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, it's the best. It's the best. I completely agree,
and listeners, I can't stress enough how thrilled excited I
was when Lauren told me this.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I've been waiting for days to tell her and yeah, yeah,
and yes, she genuinely was so excited. Oh oh, I
do have to apologize to like the entire Cajun portion
of Louisiana. But when I was adjusting my seasonings at
the end of cooking, I regret to inform you that
tomato paste was the thing that it was missing that
really pulled the whole dish together.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Ooh, let's see what the listeners say about that.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, there's some apple cider vinegar in there. Anyway,
I don't know yet. Next time, I'm going to find
a hamhock, maybe maybe buy some extra sausages to serve
with it corn bread like a good sweet corn bread
really goes well with it. Oh man, I just had
some for lunch before we started recording, and now I'm like,
(33:41):
maybe I should have more. I mean, I'm not going
to stop you. I'm very full. I'm going to be
full forever. That's one of the benefits of this dish.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yes, it is very filling, and it makes a lot
as discussed and more and disgusting. Well, I'm so happy.
I'm so happy about this. I'm happy about this update.
I would love to hear how the next iteration goes.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We shall see.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I do have more beans to work with, so.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you Lauren for the update, and
thanks to both of these listeners for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, you can our
emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
We're also hypothetically on social media. We're on Blue Sky
and Instagram at saver pod, and we would love to
hear from you. Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Thanks as always to our superproducers Dylan Fagan
and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we
(34:56):
hope that lots more good things are coming your way.
Hello and loom to save your protection of iHeartRadio. I'm
any Res.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode
for you about Vietnamese fish sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lord?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Uh, Nope, I don't think so. Or maybe, Okay, so
I might have I might have mentioned this in another episode.
But I had a couple of friends in town and
went out to like a late night Atlanta Vietnamese spot
with them, and we walked in and this this just lovely, savory,
(00:44):
slightly sweet smell of the ocean hit me immediately upon entering,
and I was like, oh, this is going to be
a good meal. And I've been thinking about fish sauce
ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I do not blame you, as I was telling you
before we started recording. I love Vietnamese food, and this
fish shauce ends up in a lot of it. Yeah,
And so the cravings are all over the It's just
all kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
One of the things that we had that night was
little rice paper rolls that you roll up at the table.
You know, they give you like a little dunking station
for your for your rice paper sheets. And then you
just you know, pull together. They give you like a
platter of grilled meats and herbs and stuff, and you
just make your own and and just a nice little
(01:43):
dip in some nook chum And.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, I make that at home all the time, by
the way. Yeah, yeah, the little rice pistols love nice
light freshing lunch.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, sort of like a salad.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yes, I love them. I love them. Oh so craving Sclore.
Well for past episodes, Garum, I would say, totally, yeah,
ketch up kind of Worcester sauce, Exo sauce, soy sauce
and chovies fuh bond.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Me Yeah, yeah, definitely all of those.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, we've covered a lot of ground. Well, I guess
that brings us to our question. Sure me'se fish sauce?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, Vietnamese fish sauce, or in Vietnamese nu mom is
a type of liquid seasoning made from salted, fermented fish,
and apologies for my Vietnamese throughout, I do not have
much experience with this language and it probably shows anyway.
So anchovies are the most common fish this is made with. Traditionally,
(03:06):
sea salt and fish are the only two ingredients with
enzymes contained in the fish, plus friendly bacteria doing the
work over several months to a couple of years to
break the fish down into a liquid, and then producers
separating that from the remaining solids. And what you wind
up with is this lovely, like amber colored sauce that's thin, inconsistency,
(03:31):
and just packed with like savory, salty, funky, rich flavor
with just a little like fruity sweetness to it. It's
used to season savory dishes and to make the popular
table condiment and dipping sauce Nouk Chalm, which is fish
sauce thinned and flavored with like water, sugar and lime
juice or white vinegar plus stuff like garlic and chilies.
(03:54):
Straight fish sauce is a wallop, just like a one
bottle umami bomb. It's sort of like when you're playing
in the ocean under the hot sun and you get
slapped in the face with a wave and it's just joyous,
like the ocean is playing too.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, lovely, it's lovely, so nice, Oh my gosh. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
In order to understand more about what we're looking at, though,
let's talk about how fish sauce is made. So You
start with fresh fish, fresh whole fish, and you layer
them with salt. You traditionally do this in vessels like
terra cotta pots or wooden barrels. Those wooden barrels can
be like as tall as a person and as wide
(04:42):
as a person in diameter, just absolutely huge. And this
process is a precisely controlled breakdown of the fish by yes,
both enzymes from the fishes intestines, which is why they
need to be whole and friendly bacteria. But first, the
heavy salting draws water out from the fish and helps
(05:03):
break down some cell walls, releasing those enzymes that help
the process along further. And while this is happening, the
salt also prevents unfriendly bacteria from growing until there's enough
water for the bacteria that you actually want to start growing. Together,
the enzymes and bacteria break down proteins in the fish
into things like amino acids, glutenic acids, and other building
(05:26):
blocks that will give the final product all of those
deep savory flavors. As with any fermentation process, every piece
of the puzzle here matters. You know, the ratio of
salt to fish, the temperature, the humidity, the total length
of the ferment and fish sauce can be in progress
for like months to years. During that time, depending on
(05:47):
the recipes of the region, or the company or the
person who is making it. At various points in the process,
the mixture might be stirred or absolutely not stirred. The
vessels might be drained of liquid and then have that
liquid poured back in at the top. The vessels might
be moved into and out of the sunlight. More salt
or brine might be added. When it's ready, the mixture
(06:11):
is drained to obtain liquid, which is filtered to obtain
fish sauce. The first draw is considered the best. After
that you can add brine to a barrel to obtain
further draws of liquid. On the label a fish sauce
might indicate whether it's first draw and like the type
of fish that it's made from. You might also see
a number on the label expressed as something like twenty
(06:33):
and per liter. That will indicate the nitrogen level of
the product, which is an indication of the amount of
breakdowns of stuff that occurred during fermentation. A higher number
is generally considered better. Honestly, anything above forty is kind
of showing off your mileage. May vary, though twenty to
forty is great. Fish sauce is also produced industrially with
(06:56):
the aid of starter cultures or added enzymes to like
speed along the process and improve yields, or can be
made using added flavorings or preservatives as as you might
be able to tell here because this is a natural product.
Vietnamese fish sauces can have lots of different flavors and
(07:17):
like kind of characters depending on the region the producer,
even the particular barrel. Other fishing cultures around Southeast Asia
and the Pacific do make fish sauces as well. Vietnamese
types tend to be a little bit like lighter and
with that slightly sweet finish in contrast to a lot
of kind of like stronger, darker, more salty or savory types. Yeah,
(07:44):
the European Union has granted a protected designation of Origin
or PEDO to fish sauce, specifically from Fuquok I also
heard fu Walk. I don't speak Vietnamese. Here we are
This is the largest island in Vietnam. It's located a
little to the west of Vietnam in like in the
Gulf of Thailand, kind of closer to the south coast.
(08:04):
Of Cambodia. They source the salt used in this fish
sauce from specific coastal areas of Vietnam. They fish the
anchovies from specific waters. The anchovies begin their salting process
on the boats that have caught them at specific ratios
of salt to fish. They're fermented in local forest hardwood barrels.
I love a pedio process, and further, I am not
(08:28):
the only person excited about fermentation. In twenty twenty five,
the newspaper Vietnam News quoted this artisan producer by the
name of Win Van Wa, saying each barrel of fish
sauce is like a living being. It requires care, patients
and respect for the sea's rhythm. When you open the
(08:49):
barrel after twelve months, what you get is not just
fish sauce. It's the spirit of the island.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I love the right.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
To a person, and I mean, like, I know that
there's a little bit of marketing involved in this, but like,
but like to a person, everyone that I read or
watched a video of talking about the production process was
poetic about it. It was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yes, people do really care about it.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean we talk about Yeah, I
mean it is kind of the backbone of Vietnamese cooking.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So yeah, M well, what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Uh, you know, a little bit goes a long way,
so you're probably not consuming that much. But but they can.
Fish sauces can contain like kind of a lot of protein.
They do also tend to be high in sodium, so like,
watch out for that. If that's something you're watching out for.
You drink some water, yes, yes, always, Well, we do
(09:54):
have some numbers for you, m M. The global market
for fish sauces in general is worth around eighteen billion
dollars a year, like seventeen to eighteen and that's including Vietnamese,
Thaie and Filipino sauces. Vietnam and Thailand are the largest
exporters of fish sauces around the world. Vietnam exports a
(10:15):
little bit over twelve percent of its fish sauce, mostly
to the Asian market. As of twenty twenty five, production
in Fuquak was about fifteen to twenty million liters a
fish sauce a year. That's like fourty five million gallons
At any given time. They've got about seven thousand fermentation
(10:37):
barrels in the works, overseen in some one hundred facilities
by one thousand workers, and that is only a drop
in the fish bucket. Of the total of four thoy
two hundred facilities throughout Vietnam that produce some three hundred
and eighty million liters or one hundred million gallons of
(10:58):
fish sauce per year. Nearly half of that is consumed nationally. Wow, yep,
yep urs uh huh good. At least one hundred and
forty eight strains of bacteria have been isolated from fish
sauce fermentation tanks, with different types of bacteria living at
(11:22):
different levels within the tanks.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I love this. That's cool.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Oh and I didn't say it before, So bacteria poop
there you go? Yeah yeah. The first Fish Sauce Festival
in Vietnam happened in Hutchimen City across five days in
October of twenty twenty four. There were educational and culinary
demonstrations and a lot of food and drink, including apparently
(11:51):
fish sauce coffee.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I know, right, I've heard of putting salt in your coffee.
I kind of enjoy it when a coffee tastes a
little bit like a turkey dinner, so I feel like
I would dig this.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I can see it working, you know, I can see it.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Fo Quack held their own Fish Sauce Festival for the
first time last year in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
In the summer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There were demonstrations of fishing and salting and sauce extraction,
plus music and cooking contests. I couldn't find out that
much more about it, but it sounds delightful.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That sounds, yes, delightful. Uh, listeners, once again, if you
happen to have gone.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Oh my goodness, what us No, please, absolutely, all the time,
all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yes, well, we do have quite a history for you.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh we do, and we are going to get into that.
But first we are going to get into a quick
break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So,
like Lauren, I do not speak Vietnamese, but I'm gonna
try my best. Yeah, just try our best to get
through this. It's gonna be great. Yeah, be great. Yeah.
All right, So a lot of the basics here we
did discuss in our episode on Garum, which was a
(13:26):
fish sauce enjoyed by the ancient Romans and Greeks, which
is the huge people really really really want to recreate it. Yes.
By this point, humans had generally learned that salt caring
foods could help preserve them. In the case of garum,
that meant salting small fish, adding maybe some herbs in
(13:47):
there for flavor to make a fermented sauce that could
be added to all kinds of things. During the Roman Empire,
the Spanish exported high quality garam to parts of Europe,
including Greece and and also Egypt. Factories producing garum opened
in other countries in North Africa and other places in Europe,
though the type of small fish in question would differ
(14:10):
based on location. In recent pushes to recreate garam, those
involved in trying to recreate it have cited Vietnamese fish
sauce as being the closest available substitute, and some suggest
that garum may have been a part of Vietnamese fish
sauce's history. Huh so. The history of fish sauce in
(14:34):
Vietnam is very hard to pin down, but historians think
that it arrived in Vietnam and Asia in general from
Rome via the Silk Road, or that these sauces arrived
thanks to the ancient Greeks or Vietnam and pockets of
Asia at large pioneered their own fish sauces, and neither
(14:55):
Rome nor Greece had anything to do with it. Some
think that making fish sauce was already a practice in Vietnam,
but that yes, the sauce from Rome influenced some of
their sauces, or that soy sauce from China was the
primary influence, which itself dates back to ten forty six
(15:16):
to two hundred and fifty six BCE, or that it
was so ubiquitous this fish sauce that people simply didn't
write about it until much later, so we just don't know,
or also possibly that a fish sauce arrived through a
trade route from Mesopotamia, where people were making fish sauces
(15:39):
as far back as three thousand BCE. So oh, yeah,
we a lot of options could be a I think
a pick and choose.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, yeah. I as with a lot of especially fermented
products like this, it kind of like you have fish
you have sea salt, because you had to get the
fish from the sea, and it kind of makes sense
to put them together to preserve them.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
So yes, especially since at its base form it is
those two ingredients. Yep. Yeah, So whatever the case, Vietnamese
fish sauce goes back at least at least three hundred years.
The largest ethnic population of Vietnam, the Keen, adopted local
(16:23):
fish sauce making techniques from localized groups into their cooking
and dishes. Anchovies so see your anchovy episode, but yes,
to make this sauce. Black anchovies are other small fish
that were available in the waters near Vietnam. Were caught,
salted and put in a container, either a wooden barrel
(16:44):
or something ceramic or something possibly clay. The fish was
then traditionally fermented for several months, maybe up to a year,
with occasional stirring. That's what I read. But as Lauren said,
stirring maybe not. While specific variants did pop up based
(17:05):
on taste and ingredients, some of these fish sauces were sweeter,
some were sour, some saltier. It was more of a
proportion thing than anything else. The basic fish sauce generally
stayed the same, in part because it was fairly simple
in terms of what it required. People had their own
recipes that they passed down across generations with tweaks in
(17:28):
terms of flavor preference. But what really hammered home its
popularity was how it could go into pretty much anything.
If you had a solid based recipe for this fish sauce,
then there you go. It could transform your food with
just a couple of drops. Allegedly, when colonizers arrived in
(17:50):
Vietnam in the sixteenth century, they avoided fish sauce, so
it became kind of an indicator of being Vitnamese, especially
because it was used in all kinds of Vietnamese dishes.
As we discussed in the Fu and Bondme episodes, early
French colonizers did have an influence on Vietnamese cuisine, but
(18:11):
a lot of those dishes still incorporated Vietnamese fish sauce.
This is also around the time ingredients like chili peppers
were introduced to Vietnam, which some people did include in
some of the variants of fish sauce.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Apparently, one of the things that brought fish sauce to
the attention or interest of Europeans was when in nineteen
eighteen a researcher working with the French pasteur Institute in
Sagon looked into the production and chemical composition of fish
sauce and published this bulletin about it being like a
(18:47):
good source of amino acids that was during a time
when people were really cluing in to nutrients in foods
and so. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Interesting, hmm. One of the largest producers of fish sauce
in Vietnam, Fong Hung, opened in nineteen fifty and the
fish used in their sauce was is primarily composed of
black anchovies and smaller white anchovies. At first, the fish
were fermented in barrels made of the wood from the
(19:20):
Boila tree, but they had to start importing the wood
from Cambodia when the tree became endangered in Fuquak National
Park where they had previously gotten it. The temperature and
overall environment like the humidity play a role in the
sauce as well. As you said, Lauren, this is around
the time that more people outside of Vietnam started to
become acquainted with this sauce. Vietnamese refugees coming to America
(19:44):
during or after the Vietnam War in the nineteen seventies
also brought their taste for fish sauce with them. However,
in the early days, it wasn't easy to recreate or
obtain in the United States.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, the US government enacted an embargo against trade with
the Vietnam in nineteen seventy five. That only started to
be lifted in nineteen ninety four, and like really lasted
through two thousand and one, so during that whole time
you couldn't really import it.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah. The founder of Red Boat Fish Shaus, Quang Fom,
arrived in the US from Vietnam in nineteen seventy nine,
and he ran into this problem when he visited Vietnam
in two thousand and five, he tried a fish shauce
that was so good he snuck some back into the
United States and he gave some to his mother, who,
(20:35):
according to him, started crying after tasting it, presumably because
she had not had it in so long. A year later,
Fom left a well paying tech job to start producing
his own fish shaus in the United States under the
name Red Boat Fish Shaus.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
This is one that you're going to see on a
lot of story shelves around the United States. It's very popular.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yes. As Vietnamese fish sauce grew more popular globally, a
number of bad or even just lazy players entered the market,
using low quality fish and an ingredients, sometimes even trying
to pass their products off as being from Fuquok when
they were not, and Fuqualk is kind of like where
you are looking to get it from. Yeah yeah. Starting
(21:24):
in the two thousands, big companies jumped on the bandwagon
as well, and then in twenty twelve, Fuquok Fish Sauce
received a PDO of Protected Designation of Origin from the
European Union. In twenty twenty one, it was recognized as
a National and Tangible Cultural heritage. The twenty fifteen award
(21:46):
winning novel The Sympathizer by Viet Tan Yuen featured this quote, Oh,
fish sauce, how we missed it, dear aunt, How nothing
tasted right without it? How we longed for the grand
crew of Fuquok Island and its bat brimming with the
finest vintage of pressed anchovies. The book is a thriller
and an examination of identity that takes place after the
(22:08):
fall of Saigon. I believe it's also a mini series
on HBO. Anyway, it's a big deal. Yeah, yes, ooh,
another big deal. When then President Barack Obama tried a
bowl of rice from Chili and pork in Honois in
twenty sixteen alongside Anthony Bourdain, Bourdaine described the main flavor
(22:30):
profile as Vietnamese fish sauce. After trying it, Obama declared
this is killer.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
In twenty twenty, a number of industry experts got together
to form a trade organization called the Vietnam Traditional Fish
Sauce Association. Today, some research is going into developing bacterial
cultures to help standardize and speed up fish sauce fermentation.
This is a little bit controversial, but you know, could
(23:00):
could help the industrial side along.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A combination of climate change and over fishing has negatively
impacted the anchobe population in the waters near Vietnam, which
in turn has impacted the production of Vietnamese fish sauce
the country MH.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
But government and industry leaders have proposed building a museum
in food clock to promote like cultural and economic expansion,
the Fuquock Traditional Fish Sauce Craft Museum.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
I am on board, right, I am on board. There's
a part of me that's like, does that mean I
get to help make fish sauce? But then I've also
I've heard mixed things about how the smell during the process.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Actually, I've I've heard it can be quite strong like
in I mean, like look like any fishing area, like
any any area that has a heavy fishing industry. You
can get some fish smell occurring, but I from what
I understand, in a good facility, you know, like the
same way that in any place of fermentation, like you're
(24:14):
gonna get some weird, funky smells, but it should basically
smell clean and a little bit like whatever it is
you're fermenting, and in this case, yeah, that's fish. So
there's going to be a fish smell. But I've heard
it described as a strong but actually quite pleasant.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Okay, I'm into it. Like I said, I would go
to this museum in a heartbeat and try try to
help make some.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, get me, get me in there.
I Oh my goodness, I love visiting.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Oh I miss our. I miss our field trips. I
miss going to to to see yogurt and cheese and
and all kinds of alcohol getting made. So fun, this
smell of fresh yogurt being made at a large scale
is one of the most beautiful things in the universe, y'all.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
It was really good. It was really good. The sound
of butter being church.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Turned large metal slightly terrifyings.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yes, yes, as sound people. I don't know about you, Lauren,
but I'm always every time I hear a sound.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I'm like, that would be good and yeah, yeah, that's
a weird one. Mark that one down.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Exactly. Well. I think that's what we have to say
about Vietnamese fish shaws for now. It is.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
We would love to hear from you, though, if you
have memories, if you have dishes, if you have been
to any of these facilities, we would love to hear
about it. In the meanwhile, we do already have some
listener mail for you, though, and we are going to
get into that as soon as we get back from
one more quick break for a word from our sponsors,
(26:15):
and we're back.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with
a listener.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
So wonderful summer day with the Waves.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Julie wrote after your episode about pineapple cakes. I was
at Costco and had to try them. They are really good.
I can't remember exactly how much they cost, but I
think it was between fifteen to twenty dollars. The crust
is crumbly and does taste a bit like shortbread. The
filling is very dense. Just wanted to share that they're
available at Costco so other people are able to find them.
(26:56):
Since even if you aren't located in an area with
Asian groceries near by. Most people live close to a costco.
Ooh good tip. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised, but hey, right, oh,
I love it. I love that though. That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Oh man, I haven't I haven't been in a costco
in too long. I need to go and buy. I
mean not that I have like a lot of storage
space for large amounts of things, but like, yeah, it's
a wonderful place to be slightly overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Indeed, I've got some costco friends and I like to
go with them because I feel like they can guide me.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Right, right, You really need someone who's familiar and can
help you navigate, because otherwise you're just lost in the stacks,
the giant, giant stacks.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, I'll never never find us again.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
They'll find me amongst the ketchups.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
They say, she's still there. Oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Heather wrote first on spruce Beer. We have several Norway
spruce trees that surround our house and lust Spring, my spouse,
inspired by just in the Trees, decided he wanted to
gather some spruce tips and try making spruce beer. After
procuring the required equipment for home brewing. The batch bubbled
away happily on the counter until it was time to
bottle it. The result was delicious, even if it had
(28:26):
more of a kick than we were expecting. He also
made tea and syrup from the spruce tips. The tea
was quite refreshing with a lemony flavor. I canned some
of the spruce syrup for him, and when we opened
a jar to go some pancakes recently, it was like
a bite of spring in the dark winter. The Rye
Whiskey episode brought up some fun memories from College. Washington, Pennsylvania,
(28:48):
where I went to College, is home to the David
Bradford House and other sites related to the Whisky Rebellion.
Bradford was heavily involved in the Whisky Rebellion, and his
house is now a museum. When I was in school,
the history club was involved in a yearly reenactment of
his escape from federal troops, and one year I got
to dress up as a frontiersman and with muzzleloader in hand,
(29:09):
be part of the group that warned him so that
he could make his escape. At that time, the house
was situated between a state liquor store and a bar,
which definitely added to the atmosphere. That little reenactment has
become a large, multi day festival instead of a pet tax.
I've attached a picture of some discharge papers for someone
(29:30):
who served in the Whiskey Rebellion that I was rehousing
at work. It's not often work in the Archives connects
to a food podcast, but I'm glad it did.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's awesome. Oh, that's so cool, fantastic. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I love historical cosplay. It makes me really happy.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, I love it. And I love your work in
the archives. Yes, yes, I intersected with food history. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh my goodness. And also all of this about spruce
tips sounds so delightful. Oh man, oh man, I need
to I need to do some online ordering of more
food products from various places.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Indeed, which brings us to do you want to give
you up toy? Lauren? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Sure. So I can't remember if I mentioned on the
show or if I was just talking to Annie about it,
but I think I mentioned, uh. Yeah, Like, I've been
like like plotting my own personal red beans and rice
adventure and I cooked this weekend and it was extremely
successful and it's not really red beans and rice like
(30:47):
that anyone would really recognize, because like I can't eat
onions or bell peppers. But but yeah, like I bought
some Camellia brand beans and some nice long grain or rice,
and some Polish style smoked sausages and some really good
smoky bacon, and I cooked up over the course of
(31:11):
I don't know, like five hours of cooking time and
nine hours of soaking, a really nice.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Dish that is so hot, so good. I'm so happy
with myself.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I add a lot of hot sauce to it, yes,
but yeah, so like my vegetable base as always was
carrots and celery. I added some tomatillos, which is one
of my favorite ways to get like a little bit
of like I don't know, just like just like to
replace a bell pepper kind of vibe.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, a few of those.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Habanero and yeah, a bunch of fresh thyme dried basil,
because I noticed that basil was an ingredient on the
cookie mix that Camillia sent me a little bit of
cayenne something that I'm probably forgetting. I actually wrote it down,
(32:11):
you guys. I'm so excited. I like took out one
of my thousands of notebooks that are just rotting slowly
in a drawer somewhere and wrote down what I did.
So if you really want to know, I can tell you.
Oh man, I recommend cooking things for like five hours
so much. It's so nice, it's so like mindful. It's
really grounding for me. And then you get to eat
(32:34):
food at the end of it.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, it's the best. It's the best. I completely agree,
and listeners, I can't stress enough how thrilled excited I
was when Lauren told me this.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I've been waiting for days to tell her and yeah, yeah,
and yes, she genuinely was so excited. Oh oh, I
do have to apologize to like the entire Cajun portion
of Louisiana. But when I was adjusting my seasonings at
the end of cooking, I regret to inform you that
tomato paste was the thing that it was missing that
really pulled the whole dish together.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Ooh, let's see what the listeners say about that.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, there's some apple cider vinegar in there. Anyway,
I don't know yet. Next time, I'm going to find
a hamhock, maybe maybe buy some extra sausages to serve
with it corn bread like a good sweet corn bread
really goes well with it. Oh man, I just had
some for lunch before we started recording, and now I'm like,
(33:41):
maybe I should have more. I mean, I'm not going
to stop you. I'm very full. I'm going to be
full forever. That's one of the benefits of this dish.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yes, it is very filling, and it makes a lot
as discussed and more and disgusting. Well, I'm so happy.
I'm so happy about this. I'm happy about this update.
I would love to hear how the next iteration goes.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We shall see.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I do have more beans to work with, so.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you Lauren for the update, and
thanks to both of these listeners for writing in. If
you would like to write to us, you can our
emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
We're also hypothetically on social media. We're on Blue Sky
and Instagram at saver pod, and we would love to
hear from you. Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Thanks as always to our superproducers Dylan Fagan
and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we
(34:56):
hope that lots more good things are coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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