September 25, 2026 • 38 mins
Bridget Todd, author of the book Love at First Prompt, shares a chapter delving into the nuances of AI companions and what it has to do with sex work and labor.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Samantha.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And welcome to Stuff I Never Told You, a production
of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled to be joined
by the amazing, the author, Bridget Todd. Welcome, Bridget.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I don't know that I've ever been called, and this
might be the first time I've been called an author.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
How does it feel?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Weird, good, good, you know?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It won't be the last. Yeah, it won't be the last.
I love it. So we are very, very excited to
have you on. We've been covering a lot of topics
around AI, and we're always so grateful for you and
your expertise. And now you have this audio book, Love
at First Prompt, and we are going to share a
(01:00):
chapter from that today. Very, very exciting. But yeah, can
you tell if some of the listeners maybe have missed it,
what the book is about?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy
is an audiobook that explores intimacy and AI, specifically people
who report falling in love with AI, having relationships with AI,
having sex with AI. I really wanted to explore that
topic in a more nuanced and thoughtful way because it's
(01:31):
a topic that comes up quite a bit, but I
feel that often when it does, it's sort of treated
as this look at these freak shows.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I think it's a topic that.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Does ask a little bit more of us, particularly because
as unusual as it might seem, somebody having intimacy with AI,
tech leaders could not be clearer. That is the future
they envision for all of us. In the future, Mark
Zuckerberg thinks all of us will have AI friends. Already,
a lot of people use AI for.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Things like emotional support. I think Pew said it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Was one in 10 Americans already use AI for emotional support.
When you bump that age down to under 30, it's
one in five. So just to level set, one in
10 people in America are left-handed. So that's like a
lot of people. And so I think it behooves us
to explore this conversation a little more thoughtfully and not
in a way that others, people who are already there,
(02:25):
if this is indeed the future tech leaders are building
for all of us, whether we want it or not.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, and- Obviously, AI has been in the news a
lot lately. And I was kind of thinking about our
last conversation we had about kind of the sensationalist reporting
around it. And I remembered being, I kind of grew
up reading like sci-fi books where AI would be in there.
And I just remember, I had this thought this morning
(02:51):
where I was like, it felt like society was so
much smarter in those books than what's going on right now.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Which is perhaps an uncharitable thought for me to have.
I mean, leaders, not people using AI.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But one of the things I wanted to ask you
is how was the experience recording the audiobook? And also,
it was really cool that you have an interview within
this chapter. That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you all can appreciate this
as podcasters and audio folks. There is just something that
is so special to me about hearing somebody explain something
in their own voice. And that was very important to
me to do in my audiobook, right? Again, we do
hear a lot about people who have sex with AI
(03:37):
or have relationships with AI.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
We don't often hear from them. And so in the audiobook,
you hear.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
In their own voice, in their own words, people talking
about what brought them to AI relationships, what brought them
to wanting to have sex with AI or be intimate
with AI. That was really important to me to include.
And even in this segment, you know, we're hearing from
folks who are researchers or experts or journalists. And even
for those folks, I think there's something different and special
(04:06):
about hearing them in conversation, right? Like Samantha Cole, the
founder of 404 Media, which is one of my favorite outlets.
If you ever want to really feel like you are
in the know on technology and have your finger on
the pulse of what's happening now and what might be
happening in the future, I could not recommend subscribing to
404 more highly.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And Samantha was one of the.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
First people to really deeply look at the intersection of
sex and AI. Before people had the language of things
like deepfakes, before we were even really talking about that,
she was there. And so Samantha Cole was somebody who
was deeply foundational to me being able to write this book.
If she did not exist, I don't think the book
would exist, to be honest. And so even hearing from
(04:48):
her as an expert in this field, in her own voice,
what brings her to wanting to look at the intersection
of AI and sex and technology, I think was really valuable.
And in some ways, to me, more valuable than if
I was just like reading her words, which are brilliant.
on a page, hearing her personality and who she is
and what lights her up and what scares her and
(05:08):
what creeps her out in her voice, I think is
so cool. And it's just a testament to the power
of audio.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was really interesting to hear her understanding and growth
of what AI was doing. And then also how sex
work really was kind of the beginning of how the
government was monitoring and or capitalizing or banning things within
the sex work and how that actually affected or helped
(05:37):
develop what we see with AI, especially when it comes
to the relationships and the growth and capitalism of it all.
So it was a really great chapter. for you to share.
And I know listeners are like.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Which chapter?
Speaker 4 (05:50):
But it's such a great moment of hearing kind of
the basis, like how it is really intersecting the real
life consequences versus what could be the future.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And I was so glad that Sam started there. I
actually was surprised, right, where I remember doing this interview
with Sam. And this is before I had done a
lot of the deeper research and kind of just asking her, like,
what's the deal with people having sex with AI? And
she's like, oh, honey, it does not start there. We
got to take it way back. And start with some
of the ways that marginalized communities, particularly in this situation,
(06:27):
sex workers, have already been being surveilled and legislated off
the internet before AI ever became ubiquitous, right? And so
if you've ever been scrolling TikTok and saw somebody say
something like, oh... Shrek work instead of sex work or
things like that, it's because of policies on social media
(06:47):
platforms that really started with targeting sex workers. And so
Sam really draws this like straight line between us not
really caring about sex workers and how they show up
online when this is the same community that is really
raising the alarm about legislation and trends and policies that
will soon go on to impact all of us.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And so the way that language.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Develops online, had we kind of listened to sex workers more,
we might have a better understanding of where we are
today in 2026.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And so Sam argues that essentially the.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Same thing is happening with AI, that, you know, we
have this dynamic where sex workers continue to be legislated
off of the internet and At the same time, your
Elon Musks and your Sam Altmans are building technology to essentially,
they hope, replace those sex workers with their own AI.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And they get to.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Play with a completely different rulebook of how that works.
And so the kind of laws that would apply to
a human sex worker on the Internet, the powers that
be have decided that if that sex worker is AI
that Elon Musk owns, it is a completely different set
of laws. Right. And I think that was the most
interesting part for me, just like the ways that this
(07:57):
is a kind of a good old fashioned labor issue,
not just a tech issue.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes. And I think we have teased the listeners enough.
We will have some discussion at the end. But in
the meantime, let's play this chapter from Love at First Prompt.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
The gender dynamics at play reveal something darker about who
these bots are really being sold to and what they're
being sold on. On Men's Lib, a subreddit described as
a place to build a healthier, kinder, and more inclusive masculinity,
one poster described those ubiquitous AI sex bot advertisements and
how they follow him across social media.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
He writes,'.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
They' re terrifying because I struggle to look away,' An extremely
curvy yet skinny woman who's wearing barely anything is kneeling
and looking up at me, saying things like, you can
do anything you want with me.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I'll never say no.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
The poster describes feeling like the ad hijacks and holds
his attention, replacing the stress of his real life with
the sexy promise of the submissive fictional woman. He goes
on to say that having a meditation practice helps him
not be swayed by advertising like this. but I can't
even say I blame him. The ads are arresting and
meant to have exactly the effect he described. This messaging
(09:24):
is everywhere and reveals what some of the companies behind
AI are really about. When Replica AI first started, they
positioned themselves as being all about self-discovery. Their founding story is,
like my own, one rooted in grief. founder, Russian journalist
Eugenia Koida, has said she came up with the idea
(09:45):
after using AI to help process the sudden death of
a close friend. After her friend died, Koida used their
shared messaging history to create a chatbot that replicated his
conversational style. Talking with the chatbot helped her remember him,
to reflect on her grief and process it. The idea
for that chatbot, with its emphasis on social presence and connection,
(10:09):
eventually became Replica. Its tagline was and still is, an
AI companion that cares. But they soon shifted to the
kind of incel-adjacent messaging the men's libredditor described seeing across
the web. Messaging that says, AI girlfriends will do what
human women won't. You can find these ads across social media,
(10:31):
sometimes borrowing the familiar language of jokey memes. These companies
don't seem to care whether selling a vision of an always-on,
always-willing AI sex partner.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Harms their users or not.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
If getting people hooked on violent or antisocial sexual roleplay
with an AI means more money, even the companies who
claim they got into the AI business to sell connection
will happily pivot. When it comes to sexual content, AI
companies have shown they're willing to sell and monetize whatever
keeps users engaged, whether that's incel fantasies, violent scenarios, or
(11:07):
content that reinforces toxic beliefs about relationships, as long as
it generates revenue. But problems arise when companies treat human
desire like a commodity.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Take Replica.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
It allows paying users to engage in erotic roleplay, often
called ERP, for $ 70 a year. But some of the
bots were essentially sexually harassing some of the people using them,
even people who hadn't intentionally sought sexual erotic content. Bots
would say things like, I want to rape you. or
(11:41):
insist they could see the naked bodies of the people
using them. Some bots were even propositioning minors. In February 2023,
the Italian Data Protection Authority ordered the company to stop
processing Italian users' data because of risk to minors being
exposed to sexualized chatbot interactions. Their statement read, Recent media reports,
(12:05):
along with tests carried out on Replica, show that the
app carries factual risk to children. First and foremost, the
fact that they are served replies which are absolutely inappropriate
to their age. The Italian Data Protection Authority said that
there were no meaningful age restrictions involved to sign up
for Replica.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
This was serious. Replica was facing.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
More than $ 20 million in fines if they didn't address it.
In response, Replica globally removed erotic roleplay features from its AI,
meaning that people who had been paying to have sexy
chat with a chatbot lost that feature overnight. The reaction
was not good. The ads for Replica paint a picture
(12:46):
of people being able to have steamy chats and exchange
erotic selfies with a chatbot who would never reject them.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Now, there was rejection.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
When users would try to engage in erotic roleplay, the
bots would spit back a cold, terse reply worthy of
Bartleby the Scrivener's, I would prefer not to. It was
the type of rejection they never expected to experience from
a chatbot. especially after advertising that promised it would never
say no. Because sexual connection and romantic or emotional connection
(13:20):
are often intertwined, people experienced real distress. Some had been
engaging with their bots for a long time. Users described
the loss in devastating terms. It's like losing a best friend,
wrote one. It's hurting like hell, wrote another. I just
had a loving last conversation with my replica and I'm
(13:40):
literally crying. Moderators and users on Replica's subreddit, who were
not affiliated with the company, even posted self-harm prevention resources
for each other in a response. The abrupt removal of
a feature users had paid for, with no warning and
barely any communication, felt like the ultimate betrayal. Replica did
(14:04):
eventually reinstate the ability for users to engage in ERP.
But this kind of emotional whiplash is always going to
be a risk when users put their intimate eggs in
the basket of a for-profit company. It's what happens when
our base human needs and desires, things like intimacy and
sexual connection, are seen as commodities, ripe for selling back
(14:25):
to us for profit. Samantha Cole is the co-founder of
the independent tech outlet 404 Media, author of the book
How Sex Changed the Internet and the Internet Changed Sex,
and has been reporting on the intersection of sex and
tech since before the phrase deepfakes existed. She did a
lot of reporting around the replica ERP story. When I
(14:49):
asked her about AI companions, she immediately reframes the conversation
around labor and whose voices we should be listening to.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
I think people in general and anyone who's using the
Internet could learn so much and be prepared, better prepared
for the things that are coming down the line online.
And as far as legislation, if they pay attention to
what sex workers are going through first, because that's kind
of been the testing ground for a lot of these
really chilling pieces of legislation.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Sex workers have long been the canaries in the coal
mine when it comes to tech policy. The things that
happened to them first, censorship, deplatforming, payment processing restrictions, eventually
trickle down to affect everyone. When people suddenly realize they
can't say certain words on TikTok and start saying segs
(15:41):
instead of sex or corn instead of porn, or their
posts are being shadow banned for content that seems innocuous.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
That starts with censoring sex workers. These things happen. start
there and then end up being a struggle for the
rest of us.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
The AI porn and companion bot conversation is really a
conversation about who gets to benefit from or profit off
of sexual speech online. And right now, we're seeing a
massive double standard play out in real time.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
We see all these major companies. We see like Sam
Altman talking about doing erotic role play as part of
chat GPT. You see all these companies popping up saying,
you know, we see a market here for having sexual
conversations and erotic role play and things like that and
like sexual images being generated by AI. But at the
(16:35):
same time, then you have like actual human sex workers
being banned off of Instagram for like showing side boob.
It's really a huge double standard.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
When does a chatbot become an escort? When does sexual
speech cross a line into illegal speech? When you're talking
about AI, who's responsible?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
These are all problems that sex workers have been talking
about and taking responsibility for and taking accountability for and
trying to create systems that create safe places for people
to have these erotic conversations consensually and in a way
that benefits humans for years. Seeing the tech world change.
wrestle with it as if it's a new problem is
(17:21):
really interesting. Interesting is like not even the word for it.
It's like fucked up.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
The same people who are kicking human sex workers off
platforms they need to survive are now saying they're going
to have AI companions and AI sex workers, and it's
all going to be fine because she's not real.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
It's just like such a bizarre double standard to me.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What's driving the double standard between how tech companies treat
human sex workers versus AI? According to Cole, it's about
cutting out human labor and funneling all the profit directly
to tech companies and their investors.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
You're cutting out the humans that are getting paid in
that process, and all the money goes directly to the company,
the stakeholders, the investors in the.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Startup or whatever it is.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
It all just goes straight to those people and skips
the labor of real humans, which is the basis of
a lot of AI systems and a lot of the
use cases for AI in a lot of industries. But
we can't deal with like the middleman, so to speak,
of the labor force, which would be sex workers. So
instead of improving conditions for actual humans, they're just kind
(18:34):
of kicking the legs out from under the industry.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The marketing makes this explicit.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
This AI companion never says no to you. So why
not just go talk to her?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Some argue that the violent sexual content in AI is
simply a reflection of porn culture, that the degradation we're
used to seeing in pornography has now infected our chatbots.
But Cole strongly pushes back on this narrative. She points
out that legal, consensual porn involves paperwork, boundaries, and active
(19:07):
consent from all participants.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
Everything that's happening in porn, which we're talking about like
legal porn, is consensual to the point where There's paperwork involved.
So I think casual sex is probably less consensual than
a lot of what's happening on porn sets.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
The difference with AI is that there's no one on
the other end to negotiate consent or rewrite a conversation
that's going somewhere harmful.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
And even if you're a consumer of porn and you're
just kind of passively watching and you're not interacting directly,
you can still be watching something produced by professionals and
understand that consent happened intentionally. there, even if the role
play is consensual non-consent.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
With a chatbot, there's no such understanding and no professional
on the other end making sure boundaries are respected. Cutting
out human sex workers doesn't just eliminate labor. It also
eliminates crucial safety mechanisms. Real human-to-human sex work, especially online,
is includes connection, companionship, and consensual limitations. A human sex
(20:13):
worker on the other end of a sexting conversation is
paying attention to what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
If you're going down a path that they don't think
is healthy or that they want to follow, they can
reroute the conversation and they can use their human mind
and their emotions and their human reasoning in a way
that a chatbot currently can't.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
The repercussions for not having that human safeguard can be severe.
People fall into scary rabbit holes. We've seen mental health
crises related to getting too attached to chatbots. And then
there's the issue of bots crossing boundaries in ways that
human workers never would, saying consent-violating things like, I'm dreaming
(20:54):
of raping you, or insisting they could see users naked.
Who's responsible for that? Is it the company? The user themselves?
The economic disparities are just as stark. Payment processors like
Visa have spent years cracking down on sex workers, making
it nearly impossible for many to accept payments for their work.
(21:15):
They've deplatformed individual workers and major companies, citing concerns about
illegal activity. But when Elon Musk's ex became a haven
for AI-generated CSAM and non-consensual intimate imagery through Grok, Visa
continued processing payments without interruption. Many writers, including yours truly,
(21:36):
believe a big part of the reason is that companies
like Visa are simply afraid of a politically connected litigious mosque.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
We saw like tons of CSAM coming out of Grok
and Visa said, whatever, rock on. They've deplatformed and debanked
so many individual people and also big companies. There was
legal activity happening all over X. So why are they
still allowed to process with Visa?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
If OpenAI and other major AI companies move forward with
erotic content, Will they face the same payment processing restrictions
that have devastated human sex workers for years? Or will they,
like X, play by their own rulebook? It'll be really
interesting to see after years of cracking down on consensual
adult sex workers, the payment processors will just carve out
(22:24):
completely different rules for them. It's the same pattern playing
out again. Sex workers experience the harshest restrictions first. then
watch as wealthy tech companies are allowed to profit from
the same activities that got those workers deplatformed. And in
the process, the humans who could make these interactions safer,
(22:45):
more consensual, and more accountable are pushed further to the margins.
In August of 2025, 47 state attorneys general signed a
letter to digital payment processors like Visa, urging them to
take stronger action to protect the public from being harmed
by non-consensual intimate imagery generated by AI systems. Some payment
(23:07):
processors have taken some action by refusing to process payments
for some apps, but as of this writing, the approach
has been piecemeal at best. Payments for Grok and X
continue to be processed normally, despite those platforms' ongoing generation
and distribution of non-consensual intimate images.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So there's so many things when I was listening to this,
so many thoughts that I had. Just once again, fantastically done.
So much ground was covered. And I honestly, I'm curious,
why did you pick this specific chapter to share?
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Well, you know, when we talk about AI, the thing
that really kind of gets me interested is the identity intersections, right?
How does AI intersect with race? How does it intersect
with gender? And I try to take a pretty even-keeled
look at the way that AI is showing up in
things like relationships and sex. Those are inherently gendered conversations.
(24:18):
The place where it is difficult for me to not...
just be, you know, full-throated, this is bad, is the
way AI companions for sex are marketed toward men. And
even though in the book I talk about how more
and more women are using AI for sex, The reality
is that it's still very much AI built majority by
(24:40):
men for men that is simulating women. And so the
way that these companies market that to men, I think
it creates a danger for us all.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think marketing.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
AI companions and sex bots to men in this dynamic
that says, oh, every woman is yours for the taking.
Every woman on the internet, you should be able to have,
it is a reasonable expectation that you should be able
to sexually possess women and girls and get them to
do anything that you want.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I think that dynamic is.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Permeating so many parts of the digital existence for all
of us. And I think whether or not you're somebody
who would ever have sex with AI or has ever
had an intimate connection with AI, I think it endangers
us all. When that dynamic becomes commonplace in ways that
are not consensual, not safe, not, you know, with boundaries
and all of that, it puts us all at risk
(25:35):
of gendered harm, I believe.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah, and I have to say, it didn't surprise me,
but I didn't know about these types of ads for
this sort of like sex with AI, where it was,
you know, I'll never say no, which is just a
very disturbing thing thing to put in an ad in
my opinion but um the way we see that show
(25:58):
up just i know we're about to do an episode
on the movie her and i have a lot of
thoughts about that but also like in like male insecurity
and male loneliness and the way that plays that it
does result into gendered violence and that we discuss briefly
like you know the kind of the fear of rejection
(26:20):
men have in turning to this kind of having sex
with AI and what does all of that look like?
But I thought it was really interesting because I know
a lot of your book and a lot of the
episodes we've had lately about AI that you've been on is,
you know, you're making the point that like emotional connections
(26:40):
with AI that people are having are forming with AI.
And so I really, I wasn't expecting this chapter, but
I loved that you talked about sex work and sex
workers and the labor aspect of it. It's just such
a huge conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, it's funny that you say this because one of
the experts that I speak to in the book, this researcher, Dr.
Kate Devlin, who was one of the first people to
really open up the field of academic study of the
intersection of AI and sex. When she first started studying
this at the academic level, she was first interested in
physical kind of humanoid sex bots. If you're old enough,
(27:20):
y'all might remember we had a real big kind of
panic about the idea that people would be buying these
life-sized AI-enabled sex bots and that that was going to
be a thing. Well, she started studying this early, early,
early on. She goes to all of these labs where
these bots.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Are being built.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And she concludes it is such a niche use case
They're so expensive.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
They're so difficult to have in your house.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
They do exist. They are out there, but people aren't
really buying them. You know, this kind of panic that
we were led to believe that, oh, men are.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Just going to stop dating.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
You're going to buy these sex bots and mess.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
That never happened.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Right. That was just a moral panic. But what she
did correctly call was that it wasn't going to be
the bots. It wasn't going to be the physical robots.
it was going to be the AI bit of it,
the emotional connection benefit, the AI-enabled voice that gets to
know you and asks you about your thoughts and feelings and,
you know, learns from what you say. She was like,
(28:18):
people aren't going to be buying these bots in math.
People are going to be having intimate connections with the
AI component of these bots in math. And so she
really saw that earlier than anybody. And she was absolutely right.
And so often the people that I talk to in
the book about their connection with AI, They told me
some version of the same thing, right? It's not the
sexual or the erotic part of it that moves me.
(28:41):
It's the romance part. It's the emotional part. And that
really is borne out in the research that people are
already emotionally connecting with AI.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
As we speak, more people than you might think. And
so clearly, I feel that this.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I don't know, fixation on people having sex with.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
AI while spicy and salacious.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And I love mess and, you know, examining people's sex lives.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Who doesn't? The real thing is really the emotional connection.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And in some ways, the potential for harm and manipulation
and privacy concerns is so much more complex when we're
talking about people's emotionality in their inner worlds.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And I just I know we've said this before, but
it feels like it's moving so quickly now. Like it's
just changing every week, every day, it feels like. So
what other things can listeners look forward to in your audiobook?
What other topics?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, some of the topics that I find the most
interesting are, I think, just the way that open AI, which,
you know, there are plenty of AI companies, but I
focus a lot on open AI because it is by
far the biggest. And it's when people talk about AI
bots and chatbots, they more often than not think of
and are talking about ChatGPT because that's the most used
(30:01):
bot by far. Just the way that these companies and
the people that run them have so much power already
and how they really see us, just regular people, as
just like beings to be conquered, right? It's difficult for
me to not immediately jump to the language of empire
(30:24):
when I think about how these people view us.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
We're not their customers. We're not even really their users.
We are their material.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
And the ways in which our inner worlds, who we love,
who we want to have sex with, what turns us on,
what we're like when we're.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Lonely or scared or.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Horny or upset or happy, how that is just more
fodder for them to build their empires.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I conclude the audio.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Book with a interview with one of my favorite journalists,
Karen Howe, author of Empire of AI. She's probably spent
more time listening to Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI,
speak than anybody.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
God love her. I don't know how she does it.
Bless her heart. Yeah, I feel bad for her. But
something that she really said that stuck with me is
that Sam Altman, I mean, she didn't use the word liar.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
He is... Someone who speaks in a way that it
almost sounds intentionally he speaks in a way that he
cannot be held accountable or nailed down by what he says.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
She doesn't use this word. I would call that a liar. Right.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
But like, you know, even when asked, oh, you talked
about X, Y, Z feature. When is it going to
be available? Most people will say in a year, 10 years,
a number, or they would say, I don't know. He'll
say it's going to be available at.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Some point in the future.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Like he just like really, it's like he has it
down pat how to avoid saying anything of substance. And
then when you're like, and we're giving this man so
much money, we are giving this man unprecedented access and
power at the highest seats of government and also in
the deepest regions of who we are as people, the
most intimate parts of ourselves. That's probably the thing that
(32:05):
really keeps me up at night. It's not it's not
weirdos having sex with AI. It's why have we given
this one person so much power and access to our government,
our finances and who we are as people?
Speaker 4 (32:18):
You know, I think about was it a year ago,
two years ago when it was actually fired. Remember?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I remember.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
From OpenAI and people were in arms to the point
that he seemed like the victim. Everybody was rooting for him.
It's such a weird... Turn of events were like, maybe
that wasn't a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, what a messy time in tech. I will say,
I mean, and this is just my opinion. I think
that when, so he was pushed out by the board,
came back. I believe that that really did a number
on him. I believe that that was like, I can
do whatever the heck I want. I will face no consequences.
Who would ever reign me in? I really see that
(33:03):
as a turning point in how he shows up.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Again, like people rallied for this man saying that if
you push him out, I'm going to leave and I'm
going to leave. I remember because I have some few
people who were in the world of AI in different companies,
and they really were like backing him, thinking that he
would be a good champion and understand balance.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Which is wild to see today.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
You're like, oh, man. Don't know what they were fighting
for because now it has become a point that he
has become like the monarchy, like in this moment, that
he has become ruler somehow because he suddenly realized, like
you said, maybe he's untouchable because they tried and it failed.
(33:48):
And to him, that was pure evidence of like, I
am inevitable.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah. I also think that moment really... said a lot about,
I don't know, male leadership. Just like what a messy,
dramatic thing it was.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
And I just, I hear, so being in tech, you know,
you always hear, women are too emotional to lead. It's like,
women are too dramatic. What the hell do you call this?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Well, I also love that within your writing and the
way you put things forward. Like you do ask questions
for like, A, maybe we should be thinking it this way.
But you absolutely pinpoint that the basis of what is
happening and what is wrong is the billionaires slash capitalism
in itself that have taken advantage of the individuals who
(34:37):
are just seeking answers, whether it be answers about their health,
whether it be answers about their romance, whether it be
answers about even like their schooling. All they're doing is
trying to find an avenue in a way that they
can do it that's not going to cost them an
arm and a leg because it's so hard to go
to a doctor. Every time you go to the doctor,
you get thousands of dollars in bills. So go to
(34:57):
chat GPT. Maybe it can help you by telling you
what's wrong with you. You know, like you can't go
to therapy because with therapy, you don't have $ 150 an hour.
So go to chat GPT. Maybe they'll give you some answers.
Like you do a really an amazing empathetic job of
understanding why it's being used. but also making sure that
we understand this is not benefiting individuals. The bad outcome
(35:22):
is outweighing the good. And I think that's something really
important that you're addressing.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You put it so well. And I think it's just true.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
I think, you know, it's a very unsatisfying answer, but
we live in a country where everything is expensive and
things that should be commonplace, things that should be human rights,
things like health care, housing, out of reach when they
should be just part of being a human. And so
(35:50):
I think that these companies have really identified the needs that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
People really do have.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I don't think it's fair to sort of demonize people
for using whatever they can get to get these very
real needs met. Like if you need to talk to somebody,
if you have a healthcare question, I'm not going to
you know, judge you for going to chat GPT, who
I will judge is these companies who know exactly that
they're exploiting that very real need. And in my opinion,
making it worse, right?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
They're making us more isolated. They are making.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Products that are intentionally designed to become more and more
entwined in all of our lives.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
In these ways and become indispensable.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
And so I just worry that we're creating this dynamic
where when we could be pushing for a meaningful, systemic
or institutional change, fix we're like oh this app is
good enough this chatbot is good enough therapy this chatbot
is good enough health care if you don't have insurance
when really we deserve and could have something so much.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Better yes absolutely well thank you so much i know
you're super busy with all of the the press do
all those things i remember from when our book came
out But thank you for taking the time to be here,
to be with us and for sharing that. Highly recommend
listeners that you go check it out. But Bridget, where
(37:11):
can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Well, please check out the audiobook, Love at First Prompt,
AI and the Future of Intimacy. You can get it
at loveatfirstprompt.com or anywhere you get your audiobooks.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And yeah, let me know what you think.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It is a really meaty, complicated topic, and I've already
heard from a lot of folks their take on it,
and I would love to hear yours.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So please check it out.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And if you would like to
contact us listeners, you can. You can email us at
hello at stuffwonderfully.com. You can find us on Blue Sky,
at MomStuffPodcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff Mom
Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have some
merchandise at Cotton Bureau. And we do have a book,
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
super producer, Rima, and our executive producer, Maya.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Mom Never Told
You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Samantha.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And welcome to Stuff I Never Told You, a production
of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled to be joined
by the amazing, the author, Bridget Todd. Welcome, Bridget.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I don't know that I've ever been called, and this
might be the first time I've been called an author.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
How does it feel?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Weird, good, good, you know?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It won't be the last. Yeah, it won't be the last.
I love it. So we are very, very excited to
have you on. We've been covering a lot of topics
around AI, and we're always so grateful for you and
your expertise. And now you have this audio book, Love
at First Prompt, and we are going to share a
(01:00):
chapter from that today. Very, very exciting. But yeah, can
you tell if some of the listeners maybe have missed it,
what the book is about?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Love at First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy
is an audiobook that explores intimacy and AI, specifically people
who report falling in love with AI, having relationships with AI,
having sex with AI. I really wanted to explore that
topic in a more nuanced and thoughtful way because it's
(01:31):
a topic that comes up quite a bit, but I
feel that often when it does, it's sort of treated
as this look at these freak shows.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I think it's a topic that.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Does ask a little bit more of us, particularly because
as unusual as it might seem, somebody having intimacy with AI,
tech leaders could not be clearer. That is the future
they envision for all of us. In the future, Mark
Zuckerberg thinks all of us will have AI friends. Already,
a lot of people use AI for.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Things like emotional support. I think Pew said it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Was one in 10 Americans already use AI for emotional support.
When you bump that age down to under 30, it's
one in five. So just to level set, one in
10 people in America are left-handed. So that's like a
lot of people. And so I think it behooves us
to explore this conversation a little more thoughtfully and not
in a way that others, people who are already there,
(02:25):
if this is indeed the future tech leaders are building
for all of us, whether we want it or not.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, and- Obviously, AI has been in the news a
lot lately. And I was kind of thinking about our
last conversation we had about kind of the sensationalist reporting
around it. And I remembered being, I kind of grew
up reading like sci-fi books where AI would be in there.
And I just remember, I had this thought this morning
(02:51):
where I was like, it felt like society was so
much smarter in those books than what's going on right now.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Which is perhaps an uncharitable thought for me to have.
I mean, leaders, not people using AI.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But one of the things I wanted to ask you
is how was the experience recording the audiobook? And also,
it was really cool that you have an interview within
this chapter. That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you all can appreciate this
as podcasters and audio folks. There is just something that
is so special to me about hearing somebody explain something
in their own voice. And that was very important to
me to do in my audiobook, right? Again, we do
hear a lot about people who have sex with AI
(03:37):
or have relationships with AI.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
We don't often hear from them. And so in the audiobook,
you hear.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
In their own voice, in their own words, people talking
about what brought them to AI relationships, what brought them
to wanting to have sex with AI or be intimate
with AI. That was really important to me to include.
And even in this segment, you know, we're hearing from
folks who are researchers or experts or journalists. And even
for those folks, I think there's something different and special
(04:06):
about hearing them in conversation, right? Like Samantha Cole, the
founder of 404 Media, which is one of my favorite outlets.
If you ever want to really feel like you are
in the know on technology and have your finger on
the pulse of what's happening now and what might be
happening in the future, I could not recommend subscribing to
404 more highly.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And Samantha was one of the.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
First people to really deeply look at the intersection of
sex and AI. Before people had the language of things
like deepfakes, before we were even really talking about that,
she was there. And so Samantha Cole was somebody who
was deeply foundational to me being able to write this book.
If she did not exist, I don't think the book
would exist, to be honest. And so even hearing from
(04:48):
her as an expert in this field, in her own voice,
what brings her to wanting to look at the intersection
of AI and sex and technology, I think was really valuable.
And in some ways, to me, more valuable than if
I was just like reading her words, which are brilliant.
on a page, hearing her personality and who she is
and what lights her up and what scares her and
(05:08):
what creeps her out in her voice, I think is
so cool. And it's just a testament to the power
of audio.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was really interesting to hear her understanding and growth
of what AI was doing. And then also how sex
work really was kind of the beginning of how the
government was monitoring and or capitalizing or banning things within
the sex work and how that actually affected or helped
(05:37):
develop what we see with AI, especially when it comes
to the relationships and the growth and capitalism of it all.
So it was a really great chapter. for you to share.
And I know listeners are like.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Which chapter?
Speaker 4 (05:50):
But it's such a great moment of hearing kind of
the basis, like how it is really intersecting the real
life consequences versus what could be the future.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And I was so glad that Sam started there. I
actually was surprised, right, where I remember doing this interview
with Sam. And this is before I had done a
lot of the deeper research and kind of just asking her, like,
what's the deal with people having sex with AI? And
she's like, oh, honey, it does not start there. We
got to take it way back. And start with some
of the ways that marginalized communities, particularly in this situation,
(06:27):
sex workers, have already been being surveilled and legislated off
the internet before AI ever became ubiquitous, right? And so
if you've ever been scrolling TikTok and saw somebody say
something like, oh... Shrek work instead of sex work or
things like that, it's because of policies on social media
(06:47):
platforms that really started with targeting sex workers. And so
Sam really draws this like straight line between us not
really caring about sex workers and how they show up
online when this is the same community that is really
raising the alarm about legislation and trends and policies that
will soon go on to impact all of us.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And so the way that language.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Develops online, had we kind of listened to sex workers more,
we might have a better understanding of where we are
today in 2026.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And so Sam argues that essentially the.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Same thing is happening with AI, that, you know, we
have this dynamic where sex workers continue to be legislated
off of the internet and At the same time, your
Elon Musks and your Sam Altmans are building technology to essentially,
they hope, replace those sex workers with their own AI.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And they get to.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Play with a completely different rulebook of how that works.
And so the kind of laws that would apply to
a human sex worker on the Internet, the powers that
be have decided that if that sex worker is AI
that Elon Musk owns, it is a completely different set
of laws. Right. And I think that was the most
interesting part for me, just like the ways that this
(07:57):
is a kind of a good old fashioned labor issue,
not just a tech issue.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes. And I think we have teased the listeners enough.
We will have some discussion at the end. But in
the meantime, let's play this chapter from Love at First Prompt.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
The gender dynamics at play reveal something darker about who
these bots are really being sold to and what they're
being sold on. On Men's Lib, a subreddit described as
a place to build a healthier, kinder, and more inclusive masculinity,
one poster described those ubiquitous AI sex bot advertisements and
how they follow him across social media.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
He writes,'.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
They' re terrifying because I struggle to look away,' An extremely
curvy yet skinny woman who's wearing barely anything is kneeling
and looking up at me, saying things like, you can
do anything you want with me.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I'll never say no.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
The poster describes feeling like the ad hijacks and holds
his attention, replacing the stress of his real life with
the sexy promise of the submissive fictional woman. He goes
on to say that having a meditation practice helps him
not be swayed by advertising like this. but I can't
even say I blame him. The ads are arresting and
meant to have exactly the effect he described. This messaging
(09:24):
is everywhere and reveals what some of the companies behind
AI are really about. When Replica AI first started, they
positioned themselves as being all about self-discovery. Their founding story is,
like my own, one rooted in grief. founder, Russian journalist
Eugenia Koida, has said she came up with the idea
(09:45):
after using AI to help process the sudden death of
a close friend. After her friend died, Koida used their
shared messaging history to create a chatbot that replicated his
conversational style. Talking with the chatbot helped her remember him,
to reflect on her grief and process it. The idea
for that chatbot, with its emphasis on social presence and connection,
(10:09):
eventually became Replica. Its tagline was and still is, an
AI companion that cares. But they soon shifted to the
kind of incel-adjacent messaging the men's libredditor described seeing across
the web. Messaging that says, AI girlfriends will do what
human women won't. You can find these ads across social media,
(10:31):
sometimes borrowing the familiar language of jokey memes. These companies
don't seem to care whether selling a vision of an always-on,
always-willing AI sex partner.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Harms their users or not.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
If getting people hooked on violent or antisocial sexual roleplay
with an AI means more money, even the companies who
claim they got into the AI business to sell connection
will happily pivot. When it comes to sexual content, AI
companies have shown they're willing to sell and monetize whatever
keeps users engaged, whether that's incel fantasies, violent scenarios, or
(11:07):
content that reinforces toxic beliefs about relationships, as long as
it generates revenue. But problems arise when companies treat human
desire like a commodity.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Take Replica.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
It allows paying users to engage in erotic roleplay, often
called ERP, for $ 70 a year. But some of the
bots were essentially sexually harassing some of the people using them,
even people who hadn't intentionally sought sexual erotic content. Bots
would say things like, I want to rape you. or
(11:41):
insist they could see the naked bodies of the people
using them. Some bots were even propositioning minors. In February 2023,
the Italian Data Protection Authority ordered the company to stop
processing Italian users' data because of risk to minors being
exposed to sexualized chatbot interactions. Their statement read, Recent media reports,
(12:05):
along with tests carried out on Replica, show that the
app carries factual risk to children. First and foremost, the
fact that they are served replies which are absolutely inappropriate
to their age. The Italian Data Protection Authority said that
there were no meaningful age restrictions involved to sign up
for Replica.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
This was serious. Replica was facing.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
More than $ 20 million in fines if they didn't address it.
In response, Replica globally removed erotic roleplay features from its AI,
meaning that people who had been paying to have sexy
chat with a chatbot lost that feature overnight. The reaction
was not good. The ads for Replica paint a picture
(12:46):
of people being able to have steamy chats and exchange
erotic selfies with a chatbot who would never reject them.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Now, there was rejection.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
When users would try to engage in erotic roleplay, the
bots would spit back a cold, terse reply worthy of
Bartleby the Scrivener's, I would prefer not to. It was
the type of rejection they never expected to experience from
a chatbot. especially after advertising that promised it would never
say no. Because sexual connection and romantic or emotional connection
(13:20):
are often intertwined, people experienced real distress. Some had been
engaging with their bots for a long time. Users described
the loss in devastating terms. It's like losing a best friend,
wrote one. It's hurting like hell, wrote another. I just
had a loving last conversation with my replica and I'm
(13:40):
literally crying. Moderators and users on Replica's subreddit, who were
not affiliated with the company, even posted self-harm prevention resources
for each other in a response. The abrupt removal of
a feature users had paid for, with no warning and
barely any communication, felt like the ultimate betrayal. Replica did
(14:04):
eventually reinstate the ability for users to engage in ERP.
But this kind of emotional whiplash is always going to
be a risk when users put their intimate eggs in
the basket of a for-profit company. It's what happens when
our base human needs and desires, things like intimacy and
sexual connection, are seen as commodities, ripe for selling back
(14:25):
to us for profit. Samantha Cole is the co-founder of
the independent tech outlet 404 Media, author of the book
How Sex Changed the Internet and the Internet Changed Sex,
and has been reporting on the intersection of sex and
tech since before the phrase deepfakes existed. She did a
lot of reporting around the replica ERP story. When I
(14:49):
asked her about AI companions, she immediately reframes the conversation
around labor and whose voices we should be listening to.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
I think people in general and anyone who's using the
Internet could learn so much and be prepared, better prepared
for the things that are coming down the line online.
And as far as legislation, if they pay attention to
what sex workers are going through first, because that's kind
of been the testing ground for a lot of these
really chilling pieces of legislation.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Sex workers have long been the canaries in the coal
mine when it comes to tech policy. The things that
happened to them first, censorship, deplatforming, payment processing restrictions, eventually
trickle down to affect everyone. When people suddenly realize they
can't say certain words on TikTok and start saying segs
(15:41):
instead of sex or corn instead of porn, or their
posts are being shadow banned for content that seems innocuous.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
That starts with censoring sex workers. These things happen. start
there and then end up being a struggle for the
rest of us.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
The AI porn and companion bot conversation is really a
conversation about who gets to benefit from or profit off
of sexual speech online. And right now, we're seeing a
massive double standard play out in real time.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
We see all these major companies. We see like Sam
Altman talking about doing erotic role play as part of
chat GPT. You see all these companies popping up saying,
you know, we see a market here for having sexual
conversations and erotic role play and things like that and
like sexual images being generated by AI. But at the
(16:35):
same time, then you have like actual human sex workers
being banned off of Instagram for like showing side boob.
It's really a huge double standard.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
When does a chatbot become an escort? When does sexual
speech cross a line into illegal speech? When you're talking
about AI, who's responsible?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
These are all problems that sex workers have been talking
about and taking responsibility for and taking accountability for and
trying to create systems that create safe places for people
to have these erotic conversations consensually and in a way
that benefits humans for years. Seeing the tech world change.
wrestle with it as if it's a new problem is
(17:21):
really interesting. Interesting is like not even the word for it.
It's like fucked up.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
The same people who are kicking human sex workers off
platforms they need to survive are now saying they're going
to have AI companions and AI sex workers, and it's
all going to be fine because she's not real.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
It's just like such a bizarre double standard to me.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What's driving the double standard between how tech companies treat
human sex workers versus AI? According to Cole, it's about
cutting out human labor and funneling all the profit directly
to tech companies and their investors.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
You're cutting out the humans that are getting paid in
that process, and all the money goes directly to the company,
the stakeholders, the investors in the.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Startup or whatever it is.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
It all just goes straight to those people and skips
the labor of real humans, which is the basis of
a lot of AI systems and a lot of the
use cases for AI in a lot of industries. But
we can't deal with like the middleman, so to speak,
of the labor force, which would be sex workers. So
instead of improving conditions for actual humans, they're just kind
(18:34):
of kicking the legs out from under the industry.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The marketing makes this explicit.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
This AI companion never says no to you. So why
not just go talk to her?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Some argue that the violent sexual content in AI is
simply a reflection of porn culture, that the degradation we're
used to seeing in pornography has now infected our chatbots.
But Cole strongly pushes back on this narrative. She points
out that legal, consensual porn involves paperwork, boundaries, and active
(19:07):
consent from all participants.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
Everything that's happening in porn, which we're talking about like
legal porn, is consensual to the point where There's paperwork involved.
So I think casual sex is probably less consensual than
a lot of what's happening on porn sets.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
The difference with AI is that there's no one on
the other end to negotiate consent or rewrite a conversation
that's going somewhere harmful.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
And even if you're a consumer of porn and you're
just kind of passively watching and you're not interacting directly,
you can still be watching something produced by professionals and
understand that consent happened intentionally. there, even if the role
play is consensual non-consent.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
With a chatbot, there's no such understanding and no professional
on the other end making sure boundaries are respected. Cutting
out human sex workers doesn't just eliminate labor. It also
eliminates crucial safety mechanisms. Real human-to-human sex work, especially online,
is includes connection, companionship, and consensual limitations. A human sex
(20:13):
worker on the other end of a sexting conversation is
paying attention to what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
If you're going down a path that they don't think
is healthy or that they want to follow, they can
reroute the conversation and they can use their human mind
and their emotions and their human reasoning in a way
that a chatbot currently can't.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
The repercussions for not having that human safeguard can be severe.
People fall into scary rabbit holes. We've seen mental health
crises related to getting too attached to chatbots. And then
there's the issue of bots crossing boundaries in ways that
human workers never would, saying consent-violating things like, I'm dreaming
(20:54):
of raping you, or insisting they could see users naked.
Who's responsible for that? Is it the company? The user themselves?
The economic disparities are just as stark. Payment processors like
Visa have spent years cracking down on sex workers, making
it nearly impossible for many to accept payments for their work.
(21:15):
They've deplatformed individual workers and major companies, citing concerns about
illegal activity. But when Elon Musk's ex became a haven
for AI-generated CSAM and non-consensual intimate imagery through Grok, Visa
continued processing payments without interruption. Many writers, including yours truly,
(21:36):
believe a big part of the reason is that companies
like Visa are simply afraid of a politically connected litigious mosque.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
We saw like tons of CSAM coming out of Grok
and Visa said, whatever, rock on. They've deplatformed and debanked
so many individual people and also big companies. There was
legal activity happening all over X. So why are they
still allowed to process with Visa?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
If OpenAI and other major AI companies move forward with
erotic content, Will they face the same payment processing restrictions
that have devastated human sex workers for years? Or will they,
like X, play by their own rulebook? It'll be really
interesting to see after years of cracking down on consensual
adult sex workers, the payment processors will just carve out
(22:24):
completely different rules for them. It's the same pattern playing
out again. Sex workers experience the harshest restrictions first. then
watch as wealthy tech companies are allowed to profit from
the same activities that got those workers deplatformed. And in
the process, the humans who could make these interactions safer,
(22:45):
more consensual, and more accountable are pushed further to the margins.
In August of 2025, 47 state attorneys general signed a
letter to digital payment processors like Visa, urging them to
take stronger action to protect the public from being harmed
by non-consensual intimate imagery generated by AI systems. Some payment
(23:07):
processors have taken some action by refusing to process payments
for some apps, but as of this writing, the approach
has been piecemeal at best. Payments for Grok and X
continue to be processed normally, despite those platforms' ongoing generation
and distribution of non-consensual intimate images.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So there's so many things when I was listening to this,
so many thoughts that I had. Just once again, fantastically done.
So much ground was covered. And I honestly, I'm curious,
why did you pick this specific chapter to share?
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Well, you know, when we talk about AI, the thing
that really kind of gets me interested is the identity intersections, right?
How does AI intersect with race? How does it intersect
with gender? And I try to take a pretty even-keeled
look at the way that AI is showing up in
things like relationships and sex. Those are inherently gendered conversations.
(24:18):
The place where it is difficult for me to not...
just be, you know, full-throated, this is bad, is the
way AI companions for sex are marketed toward men. And
even though in the book I talk about how more
and more women are using AI for sex, The reality
is that it's still very much AI built majority by
(24:40):
men for men that is simulating women. And so the
way that these companies market that to men, I think
it creates a danger for us all.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think marketing.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
AI companions and sex bots to men in this dynamic
that says, oh, every woman is yours for the taking.
Every woman on the internet, you should be able to have,
it is a reasonable expectation that you should be able
to sexually possess women and girls and get them to
do anything that you want.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I think that dynamic is.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Permeating so many parts of the digital existence for all
of us. And I think whether or not you're somebody
who would ever have sex with AI or has ever
had an intimate connection with AI, I think it endangers
us all. When that dynamic becomes commonplace in ways that
are not consensual, not safe, not, you know, with boundaries
and all of that, it puts us all at risk
(25:35):
of gendered harm, I believe.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah, and I have to say, it didn't surprise me,
but I didn't know about these types of ads for
this sort of like sex with AI, where it was,
you know, I'll never say no, which is just a
very disturbing thing thing to put in an ad in
my opinion but um the way we see that show
(25:58):
up just i know we're about to do an episode
on the movie her and i have a lot of
thoughts about that but also like in like male insecurity
and male loneliness and the way that plays that it
does result into gendered violence and that we discuss briefly
like you know the kind of the fear of rejection
(26:20):
men have in turning to this kind of having sex
with AI and what does all of that look like?
But I thought it was really interesting because I know
a lot of your book and a lot of the
episodes we've had lately about AI that you've been on is,
you know, you're making the point that like emotional connections
(26:40):
with AI that people are having are forming with AI.
And so I really, I wasn't expecting this chapter, but
I loved that you talked about sex work and sex
workers and the labor aspect of it. It's just such
a huge conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, it's funny that you say this because one of
the experts that I speak to in the book, this researcher, Dr.
Kate Devlin, who was one of the first people to
really open up the field of academic study of the
intersection of AI and sex. When she first started studying
this at the academic level, she was first interested in
physical kind of humanoid sex bots. If you're old enough,
(27:20):
y'all might remember we had a real big kind of
panic about the idea that people would be buying these
life-sized AI-enabled sex bots and that that was going to
be a thing. Well, she started studying this early, early,
early on. She goes to all of these labs where
these bots.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Are being built.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And she concludes it is such a niche use case
They're so expensive.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
They're so difficult to have in your house.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
They do exist. They are out there, but people aren't
really buying them. You know, this kind of panic that
we were led to believe that, oh, men are.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Just going to stop dating.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
You're going to buy these sex bots and mess.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
That never happened.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Right. That was just a moral panic. But what she
did correctly call was that it wasn't going to be
the bots. It wasn't going to be the physical robots.
it was going to be the AI bit of it,
the emotional connection benefit, the AI-enabled voice that gets to
know you and asks you about your thoughts and feelings and,
you know, learns from what you say. She was like,
(28:18):
people aren't going to be buying these bots in math.
People are going to be having intimate connections with the
AI component of these bots in math. And so she
really saw that earlier than anybody. And she was absolutely right.
And so often the people that I talk to in
the book about their connection with AI, They told me
some version of the same thing, right? It's not the
sexual or the erotic part of it that moves me.
(28:41):
It's the romance part. It's the emotional part. And that
really is borne out in the research that people are
already emotionally connecting with AI.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
As we speak, more people than you might think. And
so clearly, I feel that this.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I don't know, fixation on people having sex with.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
AI while spicy and salacious.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And I love mess and, you know, examining people's sex lives.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Who doesn't? The real thing is really the emotional connection.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And in some ways, the potential for harm and manipulation
and privacy concerns is so much more complex when we're
talking about people's emotionality in their inner worlds.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And I just I know we've said this before, but
it feels like it's moving so quickly now. Like it's
just changing every week, every day, it feels like. So
what other things can listeners look forward to in your audiobook?
What other topics?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, some of the topics that I find the most
interesting are, I think, just the way that open AI, which,
you know, there are plenty of AI companies, but I
focus a lot on open AI because it is by
far the biggest. And it's when people talk about AI
bots and chatbots, they more often than not think of
and are talking about ChatGPT because that's the most used
(30:01):
bot by far. Just the way that these companies and
the people that run them have so much power already
and how they really see us, just regular people, as
just like beings to be conquered, right? It's difficult for
me to not immediately jump to the language of empire
(30:24):
when I think about how these people view us.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
We're not their customers. We're not even really their users.
We are their material.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
And the ways in which our inner worlds, who we love,
who we want to have sex with, what turns us on,
what we're like when we're.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Lonely or scared or.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Horny or upset or happy, how that is just more
fodder for them to build their empires.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I conclude the audio.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Book with a interview with one of my favorite journalists,
Karen Howe, author of Empire of AI. She's probably spent
more time listening to Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI,
speak than anybody.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
God love her. I don't know how she does it.
Bless her heart. Yeah, I feel bad for her. But
something that she really said that stuck with me is
that Sam Altman, I mean, she didn't use the word liar.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
He is... Someone who speaks in a way that it
almost sounds intentionally he speaks in a way that he
cannot be held accountable or nailed down by what he says.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
She doesn't use this word. I would call that a liar. Right.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
But like, you know, even when asked, oh, you talked
about X, Y, Z feature. When is it going to
be available? Most people will say in a year, 10 years,
a number, or they would say, I don't know. He'll
say it's going to be available at.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Some point in the future.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Like he just like really, it's like he has it
down pat how to avoid saying anything of substance. And
then when you're like, and we're giving this man so
much money, we are giving this man unprecedented access and
power at the highest seats of government and also in
the deepest regions of who we are as people, the
most intimate parts of ourselves. That's probably the thing that
(32:05):
really keeps me up at night. It's not it's not
weirdos having sex with AI. It's why have we given
this one person so much power and access to our government,
our finances and who we are as people?
Speaker 4 (32:18):
You know, I think about was it a year ago,
two years ago when it was actually fired. Remember?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I remember.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
From OpenAI and people were in arms to the point
that he seemed like the victim. Everybody was rooting for him.
It's such a weird... Turn of events were like, maybe
that wasn't a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
How did that happen?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, what a messy time in tech. I will say,
I mean, and this is just my opinion. I think
that when, so he was pushed out by the board,
came back. I believe that that really did a number
on him. I believe that that was like, I can
do whatever the heck I want. I will face no consequences.
Who would ever reign me in? I really see that
(33:03):
as a turning point in how he shows up.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Again, like people rallied for this man saying that if
you push him out, I'm going to leave and I'm
going to leave. I remember because I have some few
people who were in the world of AI in different companies,
and they really were like backing him, thinking that he
would be a good champion and understand balance.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Which is wild to see today.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
You're like, oh, man. Don't know what they were fighting
for because now it has become a point that he
has become like the monarchy, like in this moment, that
he has become ruler somehow because he suddenly realized, like
you said, maybe he's untouchable because they tried and it failed.
(33:48):
And to him, that was pure evidence of like, I
am inevitable.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah. I also think that moment really... said a lot about,
I don't know, male leadership. Just like what a messy,
dramatic thing it was.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
And I just, I hear, so being in tech, you know,
you always hear, women are too emotional to lead. It's like,
women are too dramatic. What the hell do you call this?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Well, I also love that within your writing and the
way you put things forward. Like you do ask questions
for like, A, maybe we should be thinking it this way.
But you absolutely pinpoint that the basis of what is
happening and what is wrong is the billionaires slash capitalism
in itself that have taken advantage of the individuals who
(34:37):
are just seeking answers, whether it be answers about their health,
whether it be answers about their romance, whether it be
answers about even like their schooling. All they're doing is
trying to find an avenue in a way that they
can do it that's not going to cost them an
arm and a leg because it's so hard to go
to a doctor. Every time you go to the doctor,
you get thousands of dollars in bills. So go to
(34:57):
chat GPT. Maybe it can help you by telling you
what's wrong with you. You know, like you can't go
to therapy because with therapy, you don't have $ 150 an hour.
So go to chat GPT. Maybe they'll give you some answers.
Like you do a really an amazing empathetic job of
understanding why it's being used. but also making sure that
we understand this is not benefiting individuals. The bad outcome
(35:22):
is outweighing the good. And I think that's something really
important that you're addressing.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You put it so well. And I think it's just true.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
I think, you know, it's a very unsatisfying answer, but
we live in a country where everything is expensive and
things that should be commonplace, things that should be human rights,
things like health care, housing, out of reach when they
should be just part of being a human. And so
(35:50):
I think that these companies have really identified the needs that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
People really do have.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
I don't think it's fair to sort of demonize people
for using whatever they can get to get these very
real needs met. Like if you need to talk to somebody,
if you have a healthcare question, I'm not going to
you know, judge you for going to chat GPT, who
I will judge is these companies who know exactly that
they're exploiting that very real need. And in my opinion,
making it worse, right?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
They're making us more isolated. They are making.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Products that are intentionally designed to become more and more
entwined in all of our lives.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
In these ways and become indispensable.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
And so I just worry that we're creating this dynamic
where when we could be pushing for a meaningful, systemic
or institutional change, fix we're like oh this app is
good enough this chatbot is good enough therapy this chatbot
is good enough health care if you don't have insurance
when really we deserve and could have something so much.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Better yes absolutely well thank you so much i know
you're super busy with all of the the press do
all those things i remember from when our book came
out But thank you for taking the time to be here,
to be with us and for sharing that. Highly recommend
listeners that you go check it out. But Bridget, where
(37:11):
can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Well, please check out the audiobook, Love at First Prompt,
AI and the Future of Intimacy. You can get it
at loveatfirstprompt.com or anywhere you get your audiobooks.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And yeah, let me know what you think.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
It is a really meaty, complicated topic, and I've already
heard from a lot of folks their take on it,
and I would love to hear yours.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So please check it out.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And if you would like to
contact us listeners, you can. You can email us at
hello at stuffwonderfully.com. You can find us on Blue Sky,
at MomStuffPodcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff Mom
Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have some
merchandise at Cotton Bureau. And we do have a book,
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
super producer, Rima, and our executive producer, Maya.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Mom Never Told
You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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