July 31, 2026 • 42 mins
Fairy tales are as old as time, moralistic stories that have influenced our understanding of the world, and not always for the better. Amanda Leduc's 2020 novel Disfigured: On Fairy Tales, Disability, and Making Space explores the power of fairy tales and their historically problematic depiction of disability.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff
I never told you production of iHeartRadio, and welcome to
another edition of book Club. We're making it the seat
of our pants. The last day of July, we have
(00:26):
our book for disability Pride month. Before we get into that,
I did want to say I'm giving you a heads
up that in August the movie pic is Mine and
it's a spoiled Saturday on the movie Obsession. So if
you want to watch it, you've got time. You've got
(00:47):
like a month. It's streaming now. I have so many
thoughts that Oline is like pretty much already done. I'm
so hited.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Do you know which part I should be fast forwarding through?
Maybe the listeners need to know as well.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Well. I actually like I have talked to several people
about this who have seen it, about what I should
do about it, just because the way that part is
situated to tell you when it is is kind of
a spoiler in itself. I think I have a plan though. Okay,
(01:23):
if listeners, if you are worried about the there's no
death of animal, but an animal does die and it
is a part of the plot.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, that's what I'll say, and I have to know
these things. I think the listeners, if you have been
around for a while, you know this. I am a
sensitive baby when it comes to the fur babies.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yes, yeah, I feel like you're gonna be very angry
with me, but you'll see why I like it. I
think you're going to be like, this is an anti movie,
which is a birthday pick for me and I that's
gonna say for the listeners, you'll be like, oh Annie.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yes, and absolutely I can understand already with just the
premise and like all the like a little bit of
the things I've read about it why it is an
anti movie.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
But yes, I still probably will be upset with you. Yeah,
I'm bracing myself for it. But I don't think you're
gonna be happy about any of it. But you'll have
a lot to say, Okay, I'm sure. I'm sure I
will have a lot to say. Good to note. Yes,
So listeners, there's your heads up about that. It's Samanth's
turn to pick the book for August, because we are
(02:32):
trying to get better about giving you kind of a
warning so you can actually read or watch the thing
before we get to the episode. We haven't chosen it
yet though, we were talking about doing a childhood classic
m h, something like that. But if you have any suggestions,
just let us know.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, my right now current lead is the Babysitters Club.
The super addition, would they go to California?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I think that'd be fun.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think it might be if I can remember everything,
but it sticks with me pretty heavily.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I think that would be a good one.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But if y'all have something similar, like you're like, maybe
we should try this, let us.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Know, yes, yes, let us know. All right. So with
that housekeeping aside. For today's book club, we are talking
about Amanda La Duke's book Disfigured on fairy Tales, Disability,
and Making Space from twenty twenty. In it, she tackles
depictions of disability in Western fairy tales and their archetypes,
(03:33):
the history of how they came to be, and their
lasting impact. The Duke, who describes herself as a physically
disabled woman who also deals with a major depressive disorder,
opens the book with a description of how the idea
came to her and how prolific the trope of disability
as an indicator that something is wrong and needs to
(03:54):
be changed or corrected or something that only a few
can accept, or it's an indie cater of a villain,
or how it's used largely symbolically in these fairy tales,
and how much that has been prevalent in her life,
whether she was when she was younger, I'm not quite
as much aware of it. The book is interspersed with
(04:16):
doctor's notes from when the Duke underwent in operation at
the age of four to underline the story. Her parents
are being told about her disability, so she kind of
has every chapter is tackling a different aspect of fairy
tales and disability, but then it as a piece of
her own history and how at the end she ties
(04:38):
that up into kind of a fairy tale story, which
I thought was pretty cool. I will say, we're not
really going to talk about it, but if you do
read this book, and I think you should spoilers her
Game Thrones the finale, right, I mean in depth spoilers.
So Samantha knows. I recently was burned on this because
(05:03):
that feels like forever go to me. But I spoiled
it to somebody and they were not happy about it.
So just put that out there, because there's no spoiler
warning in the book. We're giving it to you right now. Yes.
So this is one of those books that there's not
(05:25):
necessarily a plot to summarize because it's much more informational, educational, historical,
and I'm fascinated with so much of it, so it
was hard for me to just not go all in.
But for a basic background, fairy tales are really really
old and they are powerful. As the Duke emphasizes, written
(05:48):
fairy tales go back centuries, a genre that really solidified
during the Renaissance in Europe, but oral fairy tales go
back far, far longer. They are stories that captivate, stories
that usually have some type of moralistic message or warning.
They're very questy, where the characters are meant to learn
(06:09):
something at the end of the quest, then you get
your happy ending, you learn the lesson, then you're going
to be set. Generally, we'll talk about that a little
bit more. A lot of them, in their original form
are much darker than their disneyfied counterparts, and many of
them religious. I think a lot of us know that.
(06:30):
Now once you get older, you sort of you come
across the original Cinderella and you're like, oh my gosh,
but yes, they're much darker than the Disney versions. Fairy
Tales are fictional and magical, featuring some type of wonder,
separate from misreligends. People do debate about what exactly constitutes
(06:51):
a fairy tale when it comes to historical examples, and
also about whether some fairy tales are a subclass of
folk tales, which is a much broader global category of
fairy tales usually denote something of European origin. Some stories
contain elements of fairy tales but would not be strictly
defined as one, like you can find kind of a
(07:12):
little bit of a fairy tale element, but that's not
what the whole thing is, And fairy tale is can
be a lot of things, but one of the threads
throughout most of them is a protagonist who is in
some way different. The Duke argues that these stories are
used as a way to make sense of the world,
especially before humanity had started making strides in the field
(07:33):
of science, so they do feel very like when I
think of a fairy tale, I think of European in
a home, like by a fire and telling your kids
like this is why you don't go in the woods,
because there's a witch out there or something like that. Yes,
And the book has got a great history of fairy
tales outside of the exploration of the themes and disability representation,
(07:58):
and as I said, I really wanted to just repeat
all of it. I was particularly fascinated in the role
of aristocratic women that they played in repeating fairy tales
and making sure that they were preserved. But you'll have
to read the book. It's filled with lots of fascinating
tidbits like the historical perception often negative, often misogynistic, of
(08:20):
being left handed. Lots of definitions too, which y'all know
we love. Yes, so for a taste of what I'm
talking about. Quote, Indeed, the literary fairy tale became a
powerful tool for the women of the court, who replaced
traditional patriarchal figures of power, not only with magical fairies,
but with all knowing, wise women who acted as guiding
(08:42):
forces for the protagonist. I think a future episode for sure.
All right, So we do have some very general themes
(09:04):
our concepts that this book explored. One I don't want
to start with is that, as we mentioned, she does
have her personal medical story, especially with cerebral palsy that
she has throughout the book, and as she tells this
(09:26):
story alongside the examination of the fairy tale tropes to yeah,
draw parallels around fear and lack of understanding when it
comes to disability, using medical notes to showcase the story
being told. Honestly, those medical notes from the doctor. I
(09:47):
was like, is this a thing doctors do? This thing's
very like a journal jury. But those are included, and
you know, even some of the medical staff. She remembers
or has spoken to her parents, and they remember not
knowing what to do or exactly what was going on.
(10:10):
She highlights the desperation her parents felt, how they would
have done anything if it meant she was healthy, including
many fairy tale like things. So there's a sort of
a a parallel between medical interventions and magical interventions and
what those can look like in fairy tales. But also
(10:31):
why at one time, before we had the science, it
might have seemed magical or something something not understood. She
also breaks down different models of understanding disability, including the
social model. So here's a quote social model of disability,
(10:52):
which holds that disability of individuals is in fact maintained
by systemic barriers exclusion and negative attitude. It's toward these
disabilities more than the physical limitations of the conditions themselves.
The social model of disability stands in contrast to the
medical model, which which links a body directly to a
diagnosis and places emphasis on the intervention of medicine as
(11:15):
a way of solving or eradicating the particular disability or condition.
So the argument there would be the disabled body is wrong,
not society, Like the disabled body needs to be fixed.
It is bad, and this is something that we see
in fairy tales and throughout the book, she reiterates the
(11:37):
point that society is really what should be changing. We're
that's not the problem. Isn't people who with a disabled body.
It is society not accommodating them or caring for them
at all. So here's another quote. It is never society
that changes. No matter how many half animals or skullar
(12:00):
maids are out there arguing for their place at the table,
is almost always the protagonists themselves who transform in some way,
becoming more palatable, more beautiful, more easily able to fit
into the mold of society already in place. So's yeah,
it's basically that society can't or won't improve, So the
protagonists must prove their worthiness and usually there's a price
(12:22):
to be paid for this transformation. In fairy tales, it's
very individualistic. I was thinking about this because a lot
of it does have a you know, people coming together,
friends love, all that stuff, But at the same time,
it is very individualistic in terms of your journey and
(12:43):
you being the one who has to solve whatever problem.
And a lot of the examples she gave, some of
which were fascinating, I've never heard of some of the
same she the stories she brought in, but one of
the ones is snow White, which was the first animated
Disney film, and she was talking about, you know, that
(13:05):
came out during the Great Depression, and it was everybody's strapped,
everybody's hurting, and here comes this movie that's very optimistic
and very like whistle while you work and it will
be okay and all of that, and so it makes
sense that people were attracted to that story, but it
(13:28):
wasn't in line with what was going on. There's also
the charity model, which she does touch on a few
times and basically is like, you know, charity is not
necessarily a bad thing, but it's still not addressing the
societal issue, like we can't just depend on that. Yeah,
(13:51):
And speaking of governments is also a discussion of the
whipization of fairy tale ideas with someone like Trump, So
you kind of like using that some of these archetypes
and stereotypes that we're going to get into that she
gets into a lot, and just using it that as
(14:16):
a way of like, if you are suffering, if you
are struggling, that is on you. You're not working hard enough, right, Yes,
But she also highlights and that fairy tales and storytelling
in journal often is used to speak truth to power
and the power of that, but how often in fairy
(14:39):
tales it's usually still within constraints of the status quo
to kind of keep these harmful social structures in place.
Like it's speaking truth to power, but only to a point.
Another thing she talks about in the book is realizing
(15:00):
what makes her her different at a young age and
not seeing herself in fairy tales and knowing that the
fairy tale happy ending wasn't real, but still having trouble
separating that from our reality. So she talks a lot
about the Little Mermaid, which also is one of my
(15:22):
favorites when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right her, like the the actual one. I was like,
oh damn, I didn't know all that.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, the original fairy tale is real rough, real rough.
Oh okay, well okay, yeah, I mean it's it makes
total sense because I know, like the big conversation with
the little Mermaid that I remember was, oh, she gave
(15:51):
up her voice for man. But also the Duke was
talking about having someone who wanted to walk, who wanted
legs so desperately, and seeing that on screen. Also, of course,
a lot of these, especially Disneyfiede fairy tales, their traditional white,
(16:17):
able bodied, beautiful women, and these are the visual cues
that are used to be like, oh, her inner beauty
matches her outer beauty, She's so beautiful. Here's the quote.
The message is that heroism isn't possible without the physical perfection,
(16:38):
especially for girls. Yes, And if you go into the
history of what was going on, and a lot of
these were written, which was Renaissance chirrup, women's agency was
largely and their sexuality and their boy like, there was
(17:01):
not a lot of choice there. So the history I
maintain fascinating. Here's another quote, and how to wrestle with
this difference between the able bodied art and the disabled
one when disability is so entirely absent from these happy endings.
(17:22):
And we do have a whole section on happy endings
at the end, But yeah, I mean, if most of
the quest is that you are getting rid of a disability,
and that's just something as because these are usually aimed
towards young children, there's something you internalize really really early.
(17:42):
And if you never see a disability and the happy
endings at all, then that easily can I can tell you, oh,
I won't have a happy ending then? Right? Yeah. Now
that being said, she has gotten older, the Duke, she
has reframed how she narrates her own story to herself,
(18:06):
and she does make the point that she really wishes
that she had known this when she was younger, that
she had had some of the newer representation when she
was younger, but that she has reached a place where
she's kind of reframed it, and I really like how
she tells it in sort of a fairy tale style
(18:26):
at the end her own story. Okay, so a representation
in fairy tales, as you might have gathered already, it's
not great, not great, here's the quote, why in all
of these stories about someone who wants to be something
(18:46):
or someone else, was it always the individual who needed
to change and never a world? So yes, that goes
back to that point of you're the one that needs
to change. You're the one that needs to fit into
this mold. It the world isn't wrong, you need to adjust.
There are a lot of gender and intersections that she
(19:11):
points out in this conversation too. There's a really interesting
one about mental health and how that's treated in fairy tales,
but also how we can kind of see how that
has leaked out into the world. That's how people view
(19:31):
if women act a certain way, then she's a mad
woman and something is wrong with her, which is not
necessarily the case. But also it's quite a way to
just dismiss somebody who might you know, have depression or something. Also,
as I said, the whole sexual agency and beauty thing.
(19:52):
I mean, if you watch any fairy tale movie, it's clear,
like I don't think you'd have to watch a single
listen to a single word. If you I showed you
a frame of it of like all the women characters,
you'd be like, there's your that's the protagonist. That's the antagonist.
(20:12):
You can tell. Something else that she brought up in
this conversation was this whole kind of these really unwarranted,
unnecessary things. People will say like, oh, look at you.
You can do it to somebody in it who's using
(20:33):
a wheelchair, but also to someone who is marrying somebody
with a disability, they'd be like, oh wow, basically some
kind of way of saying, you're marrying out of pity.
Like the implication is you're marrying that person out of pity,
which that's a terrible thing too. Don't don't do that.
(20:56):
So also, as we said, these are these are aim
towards you younger audiences, and they are very moralistic and
sometimes pretty religious. They're early ones like the Brother's Grim
they were very religious. So that is being absorbed by
(21:17):
young minds seeing this and kind of seeing the same
story reiterated in all these different ways, and that can
have and has had real world implications. So one of
the examples the Duke gifts is of changings. Changings is
(21:37):
widely understood to be like a creature that comes to
take the place of your child, but it can be
an adult. And the history around That is fascinating too,
because she was talking about how there would be like
this separation period in parts of Ireland, I believe, between
(21:58):
a mother and her baby after it was born. So
that kind of gave rise to the changeling thing, but
also a misunderstanding of postpardon depression. But she cites a
case from the eighteen hundreds in Ireland of a woman
who is murdered because she was suspected of being a changeling.
(22:19):
But when you look into the details, it kind of
seems like her husband just was angry with her as
she was successful and might have been having an affair,
but she was successful and he just kept being like,
that's not her, and everybody listened to him, didn't listen
(22:41):
to her. Yep. And another thing, another point she makes
it isn't a stretch to draw a line from the
Grim's treatment of stories and storytelling as a nationalistic device
through to Nazi Germany and the depiction of the disabled
other body as something that needs to be extinguished. So yeah,
(23:04):
I mean that's another I would say. One of her
key points, like her thesis of this whole thing, is
that these stories matter, They're more than just stories. They
have had impacts, and there is one because you grow
up everybody's reading this story, these stories where the goal
(23:25):
is to get rid of a disability and that's how
you get your happy ending. And yeah, so there's that
element too of the victim blaming aspects of you just
need to be happier or try harder. As we've discussed before,
inspiration porn can play into this. You know, you know
(23:47):
what it is. It's able bodied people using disabled bodied
people to make themselves feel better, essentially, but it's very demeaning,
it's very belittling. It's very like, oh, look what they're
able to overcome. But it doesn't address the fact that
society isn't doing the bare minimum. It's a nice way
(24:08):
of packaging the fact that nothing is changing because this
person could do it. So at the end of the
quest in a fairy tale, yes, the disability is typically
removed unless it's the villain, and then the disability is
permanent and somehow their fault. So the impetus is squarely
(24:28):
on the individual to work hard enough to complete their
quest and rid themselves of their disability. And that also
comes back to the moralistic part of it, because then
you're saying essentially, well, the villain didn't have the morality,
which this is just a horrible like the board ward
(24:48):
I think about it, it's like somssed around. But another
point she makes is about loss of mobility in in
fairy tales and ways that able bodied people might not
necessarily pick up on. And so one of the examples
she gives is of the movie Maleficent, in which Maleficent
(25:13):
has her wings forcibly removed. And it's a really traumatic scene.
But le Duke or you said, that's you know, can
to like taking away somebody's mobility AIDS or something like that,
And so why four people in the disability community that
(25:36):
kind of resonated or was really shocking. She also has
a section on superheroes Marvel superheroes, which she kind of
compares to more modern day fairy tales, I would agree.
A friend of the show, Lauren Vogelbaum, once said to me,
(25:58):
she said it very sarcastically, but she said, she said,
she's happy that men have to go through the Disney
princification now. But yeah, and a lot of those it's
still disability is still portrayed as a weakness. So the
exam she gives is Captain America. At the beginning of
(26:20):
Captain America is a small for his age, has asthma,
and you could argue how it's a disability, and he
wants to go fight in the in the war and
is not allowed until he gets the seerum and it
makes him like a super soldier. So she was saying,
(26:44):
like kind of erasing the people that he would represent
who wanted to get into the army and never did.
Didn't have that serrum. So that brings us to happy endings,
(27:11):
the fairy tale happy ending, and so many questions about them.
Who deserves them, why do they deserve them? Does the
happy ending change something fundamental about themselves, like a disability?
And you know, also the happy ending is usually the
(27:32):
end of the quest, but then you're kind of ignoring
you get married, that you got to put all the
work into the marriage. It's not like it just ends there.
And she made a great point about her a depressive
episode she had where she kept thinking, you know, I've
done these things, I should feel like I've reached the
happy ending, but the happy ending we can never really
(27:57):
reach her. No, Nope. So there are a couple of
things to bring up with this one. She does discuss
symbolism as a form of erasure, So like using disability
to make sure something is memorable, but it's not. It's
(28:18):
more metaphorical, are symbolic than an actual disability, Like it's
meant to indicate a past trauma or something, but it's
not actually treated as a disability. Uh, that's no surprise
to anyone. But a happily ever after for women usually
(28:39):
equals finding a prince. It's a very romantic happily ever after.
And again going back to one of these were written
that usually meant, well, that's that's what I don't know,
that's my I'm a wife, that's my identity. Yes, I
(29:00):
do think there is a lot of a lore and
power of a happy ending. And one of the reasons
I think so is that I it's like a need
to make sense of things in our lives, like to
make things story, makes something a story, and make it
a story that makes sense, and make it a story
(29:20):
that is leading up to a happy ending. If I
do all of the right things, if I do all
of the work, I will get this happy ending. But
when we're talking about in this case specifically disability and
the fact that it's not represented in these happy endings.
(29:41):
That is really damaging. It's really damaging. We've said it
in recent episodes, but the disability community is the largest
marginalized community in the world, and to not have an
example of a happy ending with a disabled character is egregious,
(30:07):
Like that's that's wild, And once you start thinking about it,
there are so many examples of fairy tales where disability
or disfigurement are meant to be cured, or they're used
to punish people or teach them lessons for judging a
(30:28):
false disability. So I can't remember the name of it,
but it's something about hedgehog. Yes, I never heard of
this one, but essentially the story is that a boy
is born is half hedgehog, and Hans Hans Hans a hedgehog. Okay,
(30:53):
and he like a successful he like makes it, but
he is turned down by one princess who's not not
into him. And then he finds another princess and she's like, okay, yes,
and he reveals that the hedgehog it was just like
(31:16):
a suit and he takes it off and it's like
that's her reward for not judging him for the ability.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Right by the way, Yeah, the impelling of the other
princess was like, this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I cannot stress enough listeners, these are dark. These old
fairy tales did not play around.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That was her punishment because she didn't want to be
with him, which, by the way, can we just talk
about the fact that she was forced to marry him
no matter what? It was such a weird moment, an
odd moment to be like, is that does she deserves that? Okay,
I understand that she's being mean and still an interesting thing.
Yeah that.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, the morality is questionable
in these stories, right And.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
By the way, do you remember that's kind of a
thing that happens in the Witcher? Do you remember that
character he is? I think he's a hedgehog or a badger,
like his face is, but like the very blonde is
in love with him and like he turns back to
himself at midnight or something. But I wondered if that
(32:34):
had something to do with that fairy tale had because
I've never heard that either, And I.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Was like, what is what is this?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
What is I've never heard of this fairy tale that
the very rich farmer was the one that they longed
for Our son and literally said, I don't care if
it's a hedgehog, and that's what he was given.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And then he was like, oh no, I do care.
I guess yeah, it turns out.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Turns out, which, by the way, they don't get pun.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah. Yeah, well that's another aspect that she didn't go
too much into, and we won't either. But I find
interesting about early fairy tales is like, I'm like Hansel
and Gretel, for instance, is very much punishing the children
and not these adults who weren't taking care of them,
or it would just like go into the woods and
(33:24):
it's the kid's fault.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So on, this entire situation was like these women's faults.
Like the one tale that I was like, whoa cut
off the hands and I was like, wait, why so
the father could be rich?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I'm very confused. Yeah, a lot of the ones that
I think of that I'm familiar with, but also the
example she gave, I would say, are much more moralistic
towards women. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, and she does talk about that transformation from when
it became like a tale of women being able to
overcome to being like moralized to know, women, you better
stay in your place.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
This will happen to you.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
This is where your real places in life. And this
has something to do with religion as well, because also
the conversation about fairies was really interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
There's a lot in this all that I was like,
I apparently I.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thought I knew a lot more because I knew about
the Grimm's fairy tale level. I knew most of these
were really dark. But I was like, damn, I didn't
know it was that dark. Yeah, And some of these
I didn't know at all. I was like, well, okay,
I've never heard about the Little marmade one. I didn't
know the true part of that. I thought I knew
about most of them. This one I didn't know. Didn't
know about the hedgehog, didn't know about the like hands
(34:34):
cut off of the woman that was. I was like,
what what are these?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah? Yeah, and she, I mean, she doesn't go to
in depth to it, but she gives two pretty powerful
examples of rape being perfectly acceptable, yes, and romanticize what
we've talked about that previously.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And I do like, I I know these tales in itself,
these cautionary tales do perceive disability as being a punishment,
which is part of the conversation of like this is
why ableism is so bad, like these tales being told
instead of understanding the science and biology behind it, as
(35:19):
well as the fact that she continues to say a
person like she says, like she prefers disabled person over
a person with disabilities and the reasonings for that, like
this is that very conversation we've had with other activists
who talk about them being the disabled person, whether it's
through an invisible disability or not, like embracing that as
a part of who they are and not necessarily as
(35:41):
something to overcome, which is like something that we've all
been taught and that goes hand in hand with the
inspiration form and trying to undo those thought process and
it's really hard, like I will say, as a person
who have been taught like in my generation again to pity,
which is an unfortunate idea deal because it has been
(36:02):
such a taboo to even have a conversation about it
and now understanding, oh, this is what this is and
this is how we should be at looking at it.
But what we have learned from fairy tales in this
self is kind of how we have understood it. And
that's really unfortunate because it's a very big miscommunication and
very ablest in conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yes, yes, and like we've been saying from a very
young age, we are taught this. I really love how
she towards the end and she's she's by no means sugarcoating.
I like that recently we've been very clear some days
you have good days and some days you have bad
days at whatever we're talking about. But so she's not
(36:44):
sugarcoating that. But I like how she was like reframing
what she personally had been told what I think a
lot of us have been told of. This is an
automatic weakness. You were automatically lesser. It's not good to
like finding joy our knowledge and knowing the things that
(37:07):
you can do that able bodied people can't do or
don't realize are all all of those things, and seeing
it in that way instead of an automatic like it's
painted in fairy tales. Oh this is really negative.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Right, And just her daily interactions with people or different
people talking about, oh, you've overcome this, I could never
I could like that statement in itself is really harming,
and that is a very very taling of telling about
the people's ableism, because you know, I think that that's
that level that we all have. We're told we should
be grateful, Like I hate this that I grew up
(37:48):
with my mother pointing people out with disabilities, like that's.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
That that could be you.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You know, you're like, wow, you would think about back
on it and being like, wait, that can be me,
Like and it couldn't be mean. The these are things
that you don't understand. Why back then you understood it
because that's what you're being told again being shaped this way.
But you can looking back and you're like, oh god,
what an ablest point of view? What like, no wonder
(38:15):
the discrimination against a disabled people is so high because
we continue to have this attitude which is really alarming
and we should be called out.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Oh yeah, And I thought it was pretty shocking at
the end when she's saying it's stage actress from Oklahoma.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yes, that was so disappointing.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Very recently was the first woman of the disability to
win a Tony and they like multiple times couldn't get
to the stage because they didn't have a ramp, they
didn't have accessibility.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Which is so absurd for such a place a venue
because it's a very popular venue that would not have
it And You're like, well, that should be one of
the requirements if they're hosting such an event, that you
must have this before you are even considered, which is
oftentimes a thing. You have to have all these following
things in order to be even considered to be able
to host something that should be a thing. I don't
understand how an organization liked the Tonys would not even
(39:14):
look at that.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, well, and that was kind of her point is
that if you never see disability represented then and it's
never in life accommodated, then it's very easy to not
take it into account for people.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
And it's so baffling because there's actual things that you
can use, even temporary. It shouldn't be, but like really
easy to access now a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I'm baffled. I'm disappointed. I was disappointed by that she
should get to be.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Up there, and yet she was part of the reason
that it won awards.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Come on. Well, another thing she points out a lot
in the book is the importance of community, and so
going back to that idea of like, you know, society
is really what needs to change, But also she gives
(40:12):
a couple of examples of if we have community in
these stories then what would it have looked like, What
would have looked like if I had community when I
was younger, And so the importance of that, the importance
of language, which is something we constantly grapple with, but
when it comes to disability, there are a lot of
(40:34):
words that people use that have a really dark history,
and so just keeping that in mind, but also realizing
how baked in to our language ableism is because none
of those they're not used with a good connotation. And yeah,
(41:02):
she says, these are never only stories, but frameworks to
understand and navigate the world. That's why we use fairy tales,
That's why they lasted so long. And so if the
framework that's being presented in these fairy tales is very ablest,
then that is going to impact how people navigate the world.
(41:26):
And it has had these real world impacts and a
lot of cases. And so she ends the book with
a call for more disability representation, and it's really great
because she gives just a bunch of different examples of
like what if we did this, or what if we
did this, or what if we did this? These are
(41:47):
characters you don't need to fix, right, but they would
be great heroes I agree, agreed, Yes, yes, well I
think it's a great book. I personally am fascinated with
the history of it, of fairy tales, and there are
so many great little side quests and tangents, so really
(42:12):
recommend it in the meantime, listeners, if you would like
to contact us, you can. You can email us at
Hello at Stuffnever Told You dot com. You can find
us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on
Instagram and TikTok as stuff I Never Told You for
us on YouTube. We have some rchandise coom here, and
we have a book you can get where you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super Arima andering
(42:32):
secret producer Maya, thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Steffan Never Told his production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check out the
heart Radio app Apple podcast, where you listen to your
favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff
I never told you production of iHeartRadio, and welcome to
another edition of book Club. We're making it the seat
of our pants. The last day of July, we have
(00:26):
our book for disability Pride month. Before we get into that,
I did want to say I'm giving you a heads
up that in August the movie pic is Mine and
it's a spoiled Saturday on the movie Obsession. So if
you want to watch it, you've got time. You've got
(00:47):
like a month. It's streaming now. I have so many
thoughts that Oline is like pretty much already done. I'm
so hited.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Do you know which part I should be fast forwarding through?
Maybe the listeners need to know as well.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Well. I actually like I have talked to several people
about this who have seen it, about what I should
do about it, just because the way that part is
situated to tell you when it is is kind of
a spoiler in itself. I think I have a plan though. Okay,
(01:23):
if listeners, if you are worried about the there's no
death of animal, but an animal does die and it
is a part of the plot.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, that's what I'll say, and I have to know
these things. I think the listeners, if you have been
around for a while, you know this. I am a
sensitive baby when it comes to the fur babies.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yes, yeah, I feel like you're gonna be very angry
with me, but you'll see why I like it. I
think you're going to be like, this is an anti movie,
which is a birthday pick for me and I that's
gonna say for the listeners, you'll be like, oh Annie.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yes, and absolutely I can understand already with just the
premise and like all the like a little bit of
the things I've read about it why it is an
anti movie.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
But yes, I still probably will be upset with you. Yeah,
I'm bracing myself for it. But I don't think you're
gonna be happy about any of it. But you'll have
a lot to say, Okay, I'm sure. I'm sure I
will have a lot to say. Good to note. Yes,
So listeners, there's your heads up about that. It's Samanth's
turn to pick the book for August, because we are
(02:32):
trying to get better about giving you kind of a
warning so you can actually read or watch the thing
before we get to the episode. We haven't chosen it
yet though, we were talking about doing a childhood classic
m h, something like that. But if you have any suggestions,
just let us know.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, my right now current lead is the Babysitters Club.
The super addition, would they go to California?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I think that'd be fun.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think it might be if I can remember everything,
but it sticks with me pretty heavily.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I think that would be a good one.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But if y'all have something similar, like you're like, maybe
we should try this, let us.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Know, yes, yes, let us know. All right. So with
that housekeeping aside. For today's book club, we are talking
about Amanda La Duke's book Disfigured on fairy Tales, Disability,
and Making Space from twenty twenty. In it, she tackles
depictions of disability in Western fairy tales and their archetypes,
(03:33):
the history of how they came to be, and their
lasting impact. The Duke, who describes herself as a physically
disabled woman who also deals with a major depressive disorder,
opens the book with a description of how the idea
came to her and how prolific the trope of disability
as an indicator that something is wrong and needs to
(03:54):
be changed or corrected or something that only a few
can accept, or it's an indie cater of a villain,
or how it's used largely symbolically in these fairy tales,
and how much that has been prevalent in her life,
whether she was when she was younger, I'm not quite
as much aware of it. The book is interspersed with
(04:16):
doctor's notes from when the Duke underwent in operation at
the age of four to underline the story. Her parents
are being told about her disability, so she kind of
has every chapter is tackling a different aspect of fairy
tales and disability, but then it as a piece of
her own history and how at the end she ties
(04:38):
that up into kind of a fairy tale story, which
I thought was pretty cool. I will say, we're not
really going to talk about it, but if you do
read this book, and I think you should spoilers her
Game Thrones the finale, right, I mean in depth spoilers.
So Samantha knows. I recently was burned on this because
(05:03):
that feels like forever go to me. But I spoiled
it to somebody and they were not happy about it.
So just put that out there, because there's no spoiler
warning in the book. We're giving it to you right now. Yes.
So this is one of those books that there's not
(05:25):
necessarily a plot to summarize because it's much more informational, educational, historical,
and I'm fascinated with so much of it, so it
was hard for me to just not go all in.
But for a basic background, fairy tales are really really
old and they are powerful. As the Duke emphasizes, written
(05:48):
fairy tales go back centuries, a genre that really solidified
during the Renaissance in Europe, but oral fairy tales go
back far, far longer. They are stories that captivate, stories
that usually have some type of moralistic message or warning.
They're very questy, where the characters are meant to learn
(06:09):
something at the end of the quest, then you get
your happy ending, you learn the lesson, then you're going
to be set. Generally, we'll talk about that a little
bit more. A lot of them, in their original form
are much darker than their disneyfied counterparts, and many of
them religious. I think a lot of us know that.
(06:30):
Now once you get older, you sort of you come
across the original Cinderella and you're like, oh my gosh,
but yes, they're much darker than the Disney versions. Fairy
Tales are fictional and magical, featuring some type of wonder,
separate from misreligends. People do debate about what exactly constitutes
(06:51):
a fairy tale when it comes to historical examples, and
also about whether some fairy tales are a subclass of
folk tales, which is a much broader global category of
fairy tales usually denote something of European origin. Some stories
contain elements of fairy tales but would not be strictly
defined as one, like you can find kind of a
(07:12):
little bit of a fairy tale element, but that's not
what the whole thing is, And fairy tale is can
be a lot of things, but one of the threads
throughout most of them is a protagonist who is in
some way different. The Duke argues that these stories are
used as a way to make sense of the world,
especially before humanity had started making strides in the field
(07:33):
of science, so they do feel very like when I
think of a fairy tale, I think of European in
a home, like by a fire and telling your kids
like this is why you don't go in the woods,
because there's a witch out there or something like that. Yes,
And the book has got a great history of fairy
tales outside of the exploration of the themes and disability representation,
(07:58):
and as I said, I really wanted to just repeat
all of it. I was particularly fascinated in the role
of aristocratic women that they played in repeating fairy tales
and making sure that they were preserved. But you'll have
to read the book. It's filled with lots of fascinating
tidbits like the historical perception often negative, often misogynistic, of
(08:20):
being left handed. Lots of definitions too, which y'all know
we love. Yes, so for a taste of what I'm
talking about. Quote, Indeed, the literary fairy tale became a
powerful tool for the women of the court, who replaced
traditional patriarchal figures of power, not only with magical fairies,
but with all knowing, wise women who acted as guiding
(08:42):
forces for the protagonist. I think a future episode for sure.
All right, So we do have some very general themes
(09:04):
our concepts that this book explored. One I don't want
to start with is that, as we mentioned, she does
have her personal medical story, especially with cerebral palsy that
she has throughout the book, and as she tells this
(09:26):
story alongside the examination of the fairy tale tropes to yeah,
draw parallels around fear and lack of understanding when it
comes to disability, using medical notes to showcase the story
being told. Honestly, those medical notes from the doctor. I
(09:47):
was like, is this a thing doctors do? This thing's
very like a journal jury. But those are included, and
you know, even some of the medical staff. She remembers
or has spoken to her parents, and they remember not
knowing what to do or exactly what was going on.
(10:10):
She highlights the desperation her parents felt, how they would
have done anything if it meant she was healthy, including
many fairy tale like things. So there's a sort of
a a parallel between medical interventions and magical interventions and
what those can look like in fairy tales. But also
(10:31):
why at one time, before we had the science, it
might have seemed magical or something something not understood. She
also breaks down different models of understanding disability, including the
social model. So here's a quote social model of disability,
(10:52):
which holds that disability of individuals is in fact maintained
by systemic barriers exclusion and negative attitude. It's toward these
disabilities more than the physical limitations of the conditions themselves.
The social model of disability stands in contrast to the
medical model, which which links a body directly to a
diagnosis and places emphasis on the intervention of medicine as
(11:15):
a way of solving or eradicating the particular disability or condition.
So the argument there would be the disabled body is wrong,
not society, Like the disabled body needs to be fixed.
It is bad, and this is something that we see
in fairy tales and throughout the book, she reiterates the
(11:37):
point that society is really what should be changing. We're
that's not the problem. Isn't people who with a disabled body.
It is society not accommodating them or caring for them
at all. So here's another quote. It is never society
that changes. No matter how many half animals or skullar
(12:00):
maids are out there arguing for their place at the table,
is almost always the protagonists themselves who transform in some way,
becoming more palatable, more beautiful, more easily able to fit
into the mold of society already in place. So's yeah,
it's basically that society can't or won't improve, So the
protagonists must prove their worthiness and usually there's a price
(12:22):
to be paid for this transformation. In fairy tales, it's
very individualistic. I was thinking about this because a lot
of it does have a you know, people coming together,
friends love, all that stuff, But at the same time,
it is very individualistic in terms of your journey and
(12:43):
you being the one who has to solve whatever problem.
And a lot of the examples she gave, some of
which were fascinating, I've never heard of some of the
same she the stories she brought in, but one of
the ones is snow White, which was the first animated
Disney film, and she was talking about, you know, that
(13:05):
came out during the Great Depression, and it was everybody's strapped,
everybody's hurting, and here comes this movie that's very optimistic
and very like whistle while you work and it will
be okay and all of that, and so it makes
sense that people were attracted to that story, but it
(13:28):
wasn't in line with what was going on. There's also
the charity model, which she does touch on a few
times and basically is like, you know, charity is not
necessarily a bad thing, but it's still not addressing the
societal issue, like we can't just depend on that. Yeah,
(13:51):
And speaking of governments is also a discussion of the
whipization of fairy tale ideas with someone like Trump, So
you kind of like using that some of these archetypes
and stereotypes that we're going to get into that she
gets into a lot, and just using it that as
(14:16):
a way of like, if you are suffering, if you
are struggling, that is on you. You're not working hard enough, right, Yes,
But she also highlights and that fairy tales and storytelling
in journal often is used to speak truth to power
and the power of that, but how often in fairy
(14:39):
tales it's usually still within constraints of the status quo
to kind of keep these harmful social structures in place.
Like it's speaking truth to power, but only to a point.
Another thing she talks about in the book is realizing
(15:00):
what makes her her different at a young age and
not seeing herself in fairy tales and knowing that the
fairy tale happy ending wasn't real, but still having trouble
separating that from our reality. So she talks a lot
about the Little Mermaid, which also is one of my
(15:22):
favorites when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right her, like the the actual one. I was like,
oh damn, I didn't know all that.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, the original fairy tale is real rough, real rough.
Oh okay, well okay, yeah, I mean it's it makes
total sense because I know, like the big conversation with
the little Mermaid that I remember was, oh, she gave
(15:51):
up her voice for man. But also the Duke was
talking about having someone who wanted to walk, who wanted
legs so desperately, and seeing that on screen. Also, of course,
a lot of these, especially Disneyfiede fairy tales, their traditional white,
(16:17):
able bodied, beautiful women, and these are the visual cues
that are used to be like, oh, her inner beauty
matches her outer beauty, She's so beautiful. Here's the quote.
The message is that heroism isn't possible without the physical perfection,
(16:38):
especially for girls. Yes, And if you go into the
history of what was going on, and a lot of
these were written, which was Renaissance chirrup, women's agency was
largely and their sexuality and their boy like, there was
(17:01):
not a lot of choice there. So the history I
maintain fascinating. Here's another quote, and how to wrestle with
this difference between the able bodied art and the disabled
one when disability is so entirely absent from these happy endings.
(17:22):
And we do have a whole section on happy endings
at the end, But yeah, I mean, if most of
the quest is that you are getting rid of a disability,
and that's just something as because these are usually aimed
towards young children, there's something you internalize really really early.
(17:42):
And if you never see a disability and the happy
endings at all, then that easily can I can tell you, oh,
I won't have a happy ending then? Right? Yeah. Now
that being said, she has gotten older, the Duke, she
has reframed how she narrates her own story to herself,
(18:06):
and she does make the point that she really wishes
that she had known this when she was younger, that
she had had some of the newer representation when she
was younger, but that she has reached a place where
she's kind of reframed it, and I really like how
she tells it in sort of a fairy tale style
(18:26):
at the end her own story. Okay, so a representation
in fairy tales, as you might have gathered already, it's
not great, not great, here's the quote, why in all
of these stories about someone who wants to be something
(18:46):
or someone else, was it always the individual who needed
to change and never a world? So yes, that goes
back to that point of you're the one that needs
to change. You're the one that needs to fit into
this mold. It the world isn't wrong, you need to adjust.
There are a lot of gender and intersections that she
(19:11):
points out in this conversation too. There's a really interesting
one about mental health and how that's treated in fairy tales,
but also how we can kind of see how that
has leaked out into the world. That's how people view
(19:31):
if women act a certain way, then she's a mad
woman and something is wrong with her, which is not
necessarily the case. But also it's quite a way to
just dismiss somebody who might you know, have depression or something. Also,
as I said, the whole sexual agency and beauty thing.
(19:52):
I mean, if you watch any fairy tale movie, it's clear,
like I don't think you'd have to watch a single
listen to a single word. If you I showed you
a frame of it of like all the women characters,
you'd be like, there's your that's the protagonist. That's the antagonist.
(20:12):
You can tell. Something else that she brought up in
this conversation was this whole kind of these really unwarranted,
unnecessary things. People will say like, oh, look at you.
You can do it to somebody in it who's using
(20:33):
a wheelchair, but also to someone who is marrying somebody
with a disability, they'd be like, oh wow, basically some
kind of way of saying, you're marrying out of pity.
Like the implication is you're marrying that person out of pity,
which that's a terrible thing too. Don't don't do that.
(20:56):
So also, as we said, these are these are aim
towards you younger audiences, and they are very moralistic and
sometimes pretty religious. They're early ones like the Brother's Grim
they were very religious. So that is being absorbed by
(21:17):
young minds seeing this and kind of seeing the same
story reiterated in all these different ways, and that can
have and has had real world implications. So one of
the examples the Duke gifts is of changings. Changings is
(21:37):
widely understood to be like a creature that comes to
take the place of your child, but it can be
an adult. And the history around That is fascinating too,
because she was talking about how there would be like
this separation period in parts of Ireland, I believe, between
(21:58):
a mother and her baby after it was born. So
that kind of gave rise to the changeling thing, but
also a misunderstanding of postpardon depression. But she cites a
case from the eighteen hundreds in Ireland of a woman
who is murdered because she was suspected of being a changeling.
(22:19):
But when you look into the details, it kind of
seems like her husband just was angry with her as
she was successful and might have been having an affair,
but she was successful and he just kept being like,
that's not her, and everybody listened to him, didn't listen
(22:41):
to her. Yep. And another thing, another point she makes
it isn't a stretch to draw a line from the
Grim's treatment of stories and storytelling as a nationalistic device
through to Nazi Germany and the depiction of the disabled
other body as something that needs to be extinguished. So yeah,
(23:04):
I mean that's another I would say. One of her
key points, like her thesis of this whole thing, is
that these stories matter, They're more than just stories. They
have had impacts, and there is one because you grow
up everybody's reading this story, these stories where the goal
(23:25):
is to get rid of a disability and that's how
you get your happy ending. And yeah, so there's that
element too of the victim blaming aspects of you just
need to be happier or try harder. As we've discussed before,
inspiration porn can play into this. You know, you know
(23:47):
what it is. It's able bodied people using disabled bodied
people to make themselves feel better, essentially, but it's very demeaning,
it's very belittling. It's very like, oh, look what they're
able to overcome. But it doesn't address the fact that
society isn't doing the bare minimum. It's a nice way
(24:08):
of packaging the fact that nothing is changing because this
person could do it. So at the end of the
quest in a fairy tale, yes, the disability is typically
removed unless it's the villain, and then the disability is
permanent and somehow their fault. So the impetus is squarely
(24:28):
on the individual to work hard enough to complete their
quest and rid themselves of their disability. And that also
comes back to the moralistic part of it, because then
you're saying essentially, well, the villain didn't have the morality,
which this is just a horrible like the board ward
(24:48):
I think about it, it's like somssed around. But another
point she makes is about loss of mobility in in
fairy tales and ways that able bodied people might not
necessarily pick up on. And so one of the examples
she gives is of the movie Maleficent, in which Maleficent
(25:13):
has her wings forcibly removed. And it's a really traumatic scene.
But le Duke or you said, that's you know, can
to like taking away somebody's mobility AIDS or something like that,
And so why four people in the disability community that
(25:36):
kind of resonated or was really shocking. She also has
a section on superheroes Marvel superheroes, which she kind of
compares to more modern day fairy tales, I would agree.
A friend of the show, Lauren Vogelbaum, once said to me,
(25:58):
she said it very sarcastically, but she said, she said,
she's happy that men have to go through the Disney
princification now. But yeah, and a lot of those it's
still disability is still portrayed as a weakness. So the
exam she gives is Captain America. At the beginning of
(26:20):
Captain America is a small for his age, has asthma,
and you could argue how it's a disability, and he
wants to go fight in the in the war and
is not allowed until he gets the seerum and it
makes him like a super soldier. So she was saying,
(26:44):
like kind of erasing the people that he would represent
who wanted to get into the army and never did.
Didn't have that serrum. So that brings us to happy endings,
(27:11):
the fairy tale happy ending, and so many questions about them.
Who deserves them, why do they deserve them? Does the
happy ending change something fundamental about themselves, like a disability?
And you know, also the happy ending is usually the
(27:32):
end of the quest, but then you're kind of ignoring
you get married, that you got to put all the
work into the marriage. It's not like it just ends there.
And she made a great point about her a depressive
episode she had where she kept thinking, you know, I've
done these things, I should feel like I've reached the
happy ending, but the happy ending we can never really
(27:57):
reach her. No, Nope. So there are a couple of
things to bring up with this one. She does discuss
symbolism as a form of erasure, So like using disability
to make sure something is memorable, but it's not. It's
(28:18):
more metaphorical, are symbolic than an actual disability, Like it's
meant to indicate a past trauma or something, but it's
not actually treated as a disability. Uh, that's no surprise
to anyone. But a happily ever after for women usually
(28:39):
equals finding a prince. It's a very romantic happily ever after.
And again going back to one of these were written
that usually meant, well, that's that's what I don't know,
that's my I'm a wife, that's my identity. Yes, I
(29:00):
do think there is a lot of a lore and
power of a happy ending. And one of the reasons
I think so is that I it's like a need
to make sense of things in our lives, like to
make things story, makes something a story, and make it
a story that makes sense, and make it a story
(29:20):
that is leading up to a happy ending. If I
do all of the right things, if I do all
of the work, I will get this happy ending. But
when we're talking about in this case specifically disability and
the fact that it's not represented in these happy endings.
(29:41):
That is really damaging. It's really damaging. We've said it
in recent episodes, but the disability community is the largest
marginalized community in the world, and to not have an
example of a happy ending with a disabled character is egregious,
(30:07):
Like that's that's wild, And once you start thinking about it,
there are so many examples of fairy tales where disability
or disfigurement are meant to be cured, or they're used
to punish people or teach them lessons for judging a
(30:28):
false disability. So I can't remember the name of it,
but it's something about hedgehog. Yes, I never heard of
this one, but essentially the story is that a boy
is born is half hedgehog, and Hans Hans Hans a hedgehog. Okay,
(30:53):
and he like a successful he like makes it, but
he is turned down by one princess who's not not
into him. And then he finds another princess and she's like, okay, yes,
and he reveals that the hedgehog it was just like
(31:16):
a suit and he takes it off and it's like
that's her reward for not judging him for the ability.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Right by the way, Yeah, the impelling of the other
princess was like, this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I cannot stress enough listeners, these are dark. These old
fairy tales did not play around.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That was her punishment because she didn't want to be
with him, which, by the way, can we just talk
about the fact that she was forced to marry him
no matter what? It was such a weird moment, an
odd moment to be like, is that does she deserves that? Okay,
I understand that she's being mean and still an interesting thing.
Yeah that.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, the morality is questionable
in these stories, right And.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
By the way, do you remember that's kind of a
thing that happens in the Witcher? Do you remember that
character he is? I think he's a hedgehog or a badger,
like his face is, but like the very blonde is
in love with him and like he turns back to
himself at midnight or something. But I wondered if that
(32:34):
had something to do with that fairy tale had because
I've never heard that either, And I.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Was like, what is what is this?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
What is I've never heard of this fairy tale that
the very rich farmer was the one that they longed
for Our son and literally said, I don't care if
it's a hedgehog, and that's what he was given.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And then he was like, oh no, I do care.
I guess yeah, it turns out.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Turns out, which, by the way, they don't get pun.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah. Yeah, well that's another aspect that she didn't go
too much into, and we won't either. But I find
interesting about early fairy tales is like, I'm like Hansel
and Gretel, for instance, is very much punishing the children
and not these adults who weren't taking care of them,
or it would just like go into the woods and
(33:24):
it's the kid's fault.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So on, this entire situation was like these women's faults.
Like the one tale that I was like, whoa cut
off the hands and I was like, wait, why so
the father could be rich?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I'm very confused. Yeah, a lot of the ones that
I think of that I'm familiar with, but also the
example she gave, I would say, are much more moralistic
towards women. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, and she does talk about that transformation from when
it became like a tale of women being able to
overcome to being like moralized to know, women, you better
stay in your place.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
This will happen to you.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
This is where your real places in life. And this
has something to do with religion as well, because also
the conversation about fairies was really interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
There's a lot in this all that I was like,
I apparently I.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thought I knew a lot more because I knew about
the Grimm's fairy tale level. I knew most of these
were really dark. But I was like, damn, I didn't
know it was that dark. Yeah, And some of these
I didn't know at all. I was like, well, okay,
I've never heard about the Little marmade one. I didn't
know the true part of that. I thought I knew
about most of them. This one I didn't know. Didn't
know about the hedgehog, didn't know about the like hands
(34:34):
cut off of the woman that was. I was like,
what what are these?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah? Yeah, and she, I mean, she doesn't go to
in depth to it, but she gives two pretty powerful
examples of rape being perfectly acceptable, yes, and romanticize what
we've talked about that previously.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And I do like, I I know these tales in itself,
these cautionary tales do perceive disability as being a punishment,
which is part of the conversation of like this is
why ableism is so bad, like these tales being told
instead of understanding the science and biology behind it, as
(35:19):
well as the fact that she continues to say a
person like she says, like she prefers disabled person over
a person with disabilities and the reasonings for that, like
this is that very conversation we've had with other activists
who talk about them being the disabled person, whether it's
through an invisible disability or not, like embracing that as
a part of who they are and not necessarily as
(35:41):
something to overcome, which is like something that we've all
been taught and that goes hand in hand with the
inspiration form and trying to undo those thought process and
it's really hard, like I will say, as a person
who have been taught like in my generation again to pity,
which is an unfortunate idea deal because it has been
(36:02):
such a taboo to even have a conversation about it
and now understanding, oh, this is what this is and
this is how we should be at looking at it.
But what we have learned from fairy tales in this
self is kind of how we have understood it. And
that's really unfortunate because it's a very big miscommunication and
very ablest in conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yes, yes, and like we've been saying from a very
young age, we are taught this. I really love how
she towards the end and she's she's by no means sugarcoating.
I like that recently we've been very clear some days
you have good days and some days you have bad
days at whatever we're talking about. But so she's not
(36:44):
sugarcoating that. But I like how she was like reframing
what she personally had been told what I think a
lot of us have been told of. This is an
automatic weakness. You were automatically lesser. It's not good to
like finding joy our knowledge and knowing the things that
(37:07):
you can do that able bodied people can't do or
don't realize are all all of those things, and seeing
it in that way instead of an automatic like it's
painted in fairy tales. Oh this is really negative.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Right, And just her daily interactions with people or different
people talking about, oh, you've overcome this, I could never
I could like that statement in itself is really harming,
and that is a very very taling of telling about
the people's ableism, because you know, I think that that's
that level that we all have. We're told we should
be grateful, Like I hate this that I grew up
(37:48):
with my mother pointing people out with disabilities, like that's.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
That that could be you.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You know, you're like, wow, you would think about back
on it and being like, wait, that can be me,
Like and it couldn't be mean. The these are things
that you don't understand. Why back then you understood it
because that's what you're being told again being shaped this way.
But you can looking back and you're like, oh god,
what an ablest point of view? What like, no wonder
(38:15):
the discrimination against a disabled people is so high because
we continue to have this attitude which is really alarming
and we should be called out.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Oh yeah, And I thought it was pretty shocking at
the end when she's saying it's stage actress from Oklahoma.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yes, that was so disappointing.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Very recently was the first woman of the disability to
win a Tony and they like multiple times couldn't get
to the stage because they didn't have a ramp, they
didn't have accessibility.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Which is so absurd for such a place a venue
because it's a very popular venue that would not have
it And You're like, well, that should be one of
the requirements if they're hosting such an event, that you
must have this before you are even considered, which is
oftentimes a thing. You have to have all these following
things in order to be even considered to be able
to host something that should be a thing. I don't
understand how an organization liked the Tonys would not even
(39:14):
look at that.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, well, and that was kind of her point is
that if you never see disability represented then and it's
never in life accommodated, then it's very easy to not
take it into account for people.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
And it's so baffling because there's actual things that you
can use, even temporary. It shouldn't be, but like really
easy to access now a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I'm baffled. I'm disappointed. I was disappointed by that she
should get to be.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Up there, and yet she was part of the reason
that it won awards.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Come on. Well, another thing she points out a lot
in the book is the importance of community, and so
going back to that idea of like, you know, society
is really what needs to change, But also she gives
(40:12):
a couple of examples of if we have community in
these stories then what would it have looked like, What
would have looked like if I had community when I
was younger, And so the importance of that, the importance
of language, which is something we constantly grapple with, but
when it comes to disability, there are a lot of
(40:34):
words that people use that have a really dark history,
and so just keeping that in mind, but also realizing
how baked in to our language ableism is because none
of those they're not used with a good connotation. And yeah,
(41:02):
she says, these are never only stories, but frameworks to
understand and navigate the world. That's why we use fairy tales,
That's why they lasted so long. And so if the
framework that's being presented in these fairy tales is very ablest,
then that is going to impact how people navigate the world.
(41:26):
And it has had these real world impacts and a
lot of cases. And so she ends the book with
a call for more disability representation, and it's really great
because she gives just a bunch of different examples of
like what if we did this, or what if we
did this, or what if we did this? These are
(41:47):
characters you don't need to fix, right, but they would
be great heroes I agree, agreed, Yes, yes, well I
think it's a great book. I personally am fascinated with
the history of it, of fairy tales, and there are
so many great little side quests and tangents, so really
(42:12):
recommend it in the meantime, listeners, if you would like
to contact us, you can. You can email us at
Hello at Stuffnever Told You dot com. You can find
us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on
Instagram and TikTok as stuff I Never Told You for
us on YouTube. We have some rchandise coom here, and
we have a book you can get where you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super Arima andering
(42:32):
secret producer Maya, thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Steffan Never Told his production of iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check out the
heart Radio app Apple podcast, where you listen to your
favorite shows.
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