April 15, 2026 • 44 mins
Jenny Offill's work Weather: A Novel encapsulates the sense of world-ending doom so many of us grapple with, and in a variety of ways. Anney and Samantha navigate themes and emotions around the world dying while life goes on.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and SMITHA and a loup of stuff
I've never told you are production by Her Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And for this edition a Feminist Book Club, we are
doing an environmental slash, kind of apocalypse, kind of survival theme.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, survivalist theme. Like, there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
There's a lot of dark themes, speaking of which there
are some mentions of death, end of times.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, I can't think of anything else.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I was very pleasantly surprised that the dog did not die,
So I was very scared of that.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I love that because you're what the content warnings you're
giving is preparing people for something completely different than what it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Is I think.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
But you're right that they're in there. You're not wrong,
I would say. I would also add like mental health.
There's a lot of mental.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Heal health and addiction. There's definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, so a lot of the things is very like
I feel like it's my mind. But anyway, we're talking
about the book Whether a novel by Jenny affhil So.
The book was a seven year process apparently, and it's
like a before and after reaction to the election of
Donald Trump. So I was like, yeah, okay, this makes
(01:25):
in that context, this book makes a lot of sense
and according to this is according to several different accounts
about this book. For the book, off Phil took the
time to research the climate crisis for the novel, Like
she gets pretty technical and scientific and a few things,
but like not over the top where it feels like,
you know, it's too much. It doesn't feel sci fi.
(01:47):
I'll say that although I was looking for a sci
fi book originally, this is technically kind of hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I feel like we did the sci fi thing with.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The movie okay maybe, but it was like it was
under that categories.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I was like, okay, we'll do that anyway. Back to it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Cli Fi, that's what you called it, cli Fi, That's
what they called it.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I was very surprised. I was like, that's a name.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, it's cli Fi and it's there's I did not know,
and I'm like, well now now I know. Anyway, so
back to this, uh. For the book again, she did
do that research, which I feel like with her research
it does the happinesses, the halplessness, the helplessness, both of
those things kind of like makes sense. With that as
(02:31):
well as the fact that she looked into survivalists and
climate activists and groups, and she actually I think joined
and participated with the Extension Rebellion, which is a environmental
group in the uk UH that participates nonviolent protests, civil protests,
civil action is what it says. So I was like, oh, okay,
like she went, she went in. She also had two
(02:53):
other names for this book, learning to Die, and I
was like, you know what, that's actually a really fitting title.
I like the title whether, but I feel like learning
to Die made more sense.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah again, listeners, you're gonna we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
But.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
What you think IMT is not.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And then the other book other title was American Weather,
and because during everything that was happening with the US
anything titled American, she was.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Like, I don't want it to be associated like that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So I was like, yes, but I could see where
she was coming with that as well, because there's a
line in there about American weather. So with all that,
with the style of this book, we're going to just
do a quick summary and explain her with like, I
want to give you the details of the characters first,
and then kind of how they relate in the book,
because everything is.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Chaotic. I feel like that's the best way to explain.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It still comes in the timeline, but it feels chaotic
because she I feel like she writes like I do
and also thinks like I do in that way of
like it's just constant thought and that thought overlaps with
a thought of that thought because.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
It just spirals.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, where it started from point a and then went
into number three.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
A point a to number three.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, no, no, she it's definitely. I don't think stream
of consciousness is quite accurate, but it's it's very much
like there'll be a short paragraph and then a longer
one and then another short one, and they're just kind
of like random thoughts. Well they're not random, they're they're related,
but they kind of feel like, oh, where did this
come from? And if you think about it, you can see.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Where it came from the lineage.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, but it it was when I was reading it,
I was like, this is a hard book to describe.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Right, That's what it was like.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
At the This is like a feeling almost, it's a thought.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's constant thought, and I've had these thoughts. Yeah, no,
especially older. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, so we'll
go ahead and jump into it again if you haven't
read this. This came out in twenty twenty, so spoiler alert,
and it's a very very short book, to the point
that people were like, it's almost not even a novella,
(05:07):
it's so short. So if you want to go read it.
It is available on different platforms if you can get
it through your library through Lee FM. We have proteconist
Lizzie Benson, a librarian who has all the rambling, anxious
thoughts that I feel like I think most of us do,
especially now, especially as are considering things and what to
(05:28):
do and how to do things. She is our main
voice in this entirety and thoughts. We have her husband, Ben,
so I guess maybe his name is Ben Benson, which
is an interesting name, who is a PhD classic educator
that cannot find a job in his field, so he
goes into it. Their son, Eli, a young kid who
(05:50):
seems way more worldly than necessary, even calling out his
mom saying like, are you sure you're my mom? Because
you don't feel like you're not good enough to be
my mom, which I was like, bat home, and so
I was like, well that's I mean. Her brother, Henry,
who is a recovering addict trying to live a normal life,
but is very fearful and codependent on Lizzie very much.
(06:10):
So we have Sylvia, an old professor who helped Lizzie
get her job even though Lizzie didn't have a degree
at the library. Is also a successful podcaster I know.
I was like, oh, I didn't even know this talking
about the climate crisis. Catherine, who is Henry the brother's
partner because he like we meet her as they meet
in their life and end of relationship, like it goes
(06:33):
all the way through. And we also have Will, a
war reporter who has a special friendship with Lizzie.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I leave it with that.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So in the book, we read the different thoughts that
seem to plague Lizzie as a woman, a wife, a neighbor,
a coworker, a sister, a mother, a daughter, a librarian,
and an overall concerned human like you see all the
aspects of like, oh.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
My god, I'm failing all here.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Through it, we find out that she has concerns as
a parent interacting with other parents, which I love those
conversations going like yeah, I do that not necessarily with parents,
but like clients and such like I gotta avoid talking
to them or how do I talk to them?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Or how do I do these things?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Survival instincts, avoiding certain neighbors, especially with them being somewhat racist,
even though they would say they're not racist, but they're racist.
Trying to figure out could she survive in the end times,
which I thought was hilarious because she talks about using
gum as bait. Yeah I'm gonna remember that, by the way.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, that stuck out to me too.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was like, oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Her brother is slowly recovering from his addiction. He started
a new job writing greeting cards, where he meets Catherine,
a very proactive person who is all about action, so
kind of the opposite of who he is, which is
kind of a concern for him. Who Lizzie is like,
you don't want to date your same person, difference is great,
And she talks about her and her relationship with Ben
and how they're different and how they ask each other
(07:53):
questions and everything is a nice little surprise, and then
with that they decide to get married, and then they
decide to have a baby. During this time, Henry is
struggling with a lot of dark thoughts about the baby,
dying like a lot of dark thoughts, and I'm like, oh,
I think parents go through those, but it got especially
dark of like he's talking about shredding the baby pieces
(08:14):
he's counseling, which eventually leads him to cheating on his
wife and therefore leading to them getting divorced, and he
gets supervised time with the baby Iris, who happens to
be Lizzy. Lizzie's become the rock for them, as well
as her mom as well, who is very religious, talking
about Holler activities, and he does relapse during this time,
(08:36):
but then he comes back and he goes and lives
at Lizzie's home. Ben is one who her husband thinks
about death as well, quite often thinks about the death
of his family. Essentially, he talks about it constantly, but
also a great person is to balance Lizzie when she
gets off kilter as well, so they kind of do
this back and forth, although he does get frustrated with
(08:57):
Henry living there because he is not a good roommate
as she puts it, as well as the darkness of
it all and again the end times about whether or
not how they can survive, what they should have, what
they shouldn't have, At one point they talk about lighters.
Having one hundred lighters is better than having one generator
because generators make too much noise and you can trade lighters.
So they had those type of conversations, and then we
(09:20):
have Eli, who's someone who questions a lot. I also
likes to invent a lot, but also says, don't look
at what I'm inventing because you'll steal it, and I
need to have it for myself, but also wants to
be friends with people, and so he tries to get
his mom to do more so he can be friends
with one specific girl. It finally works awkward interactions, and
he's somewhat independent but dependent on his mother's an interesting dichotomy,
(09:46):
but also gets frustrated with her, like calling her out
for her getting on to him for losing a lunch
box and he's like, are you are you my mother?
Because you don't seem to be good enough to be
my mother. I'm like, well, damn well, damn me, Lie,
that seems unnecessary. But also she he breaks the rules
so he doesn't cry, and it's not sad a lot
so like for him, So all these things. Lizzie is
(10:07):
soon offered a job assisting Sylvia, who is whose podcast
Helen high Water has become successful and there's in need
of assistance, answering the email and going out on different trips.
I felt like this was you in a little bit,
Annie in that, like she was trying to take all
the mean messages or dark messages or sad messages because
(10:27):
it was really affecting Sylvia and actually was affecting Lizzie too,
but it just kept her on like thought trains as
or Sylvia was really collapsing, like I can't take this.
Also her interacting with tech dudes, which she really, really
really hated, so the broad of questions started getting to
Sylvia as well as Lizzie, which eventually leads Lizzie to
(10:49):
stop answering Sylvia's calls and Sylvia going off the grid
to get away from it all, including the insufferable tech
pros and in the world questions and dudes coming up,
being like I have a Russian and a statement.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I love that moment, and I'm like, yeah, that's about right.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
She meets Will, who seems interesting based on his own
attitudes towards war and endings, and then though they never
go beyond dreams and talking, she does find some comfort
in his company while Ben and Eli are visiting Ben's
sister because Ben is now frustrated and needs to get
out of the house because there's too much happening. Yeah,
but nothing be goes of it. Will has kind of
(11:28):
like disappeared, probably going off to more war reporting.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So in the end, everything goes on as normal. End
of story. Yes, so there you go again.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm not putting to justice, and I've left out several
key characters in here, including the driver that she called
in because she feels guilty that he's going to lose
his business if she stops using his service, even though
it is very inconvenient. So all those different things a
lot of good things. How did you feel about this
book any.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I felt like I was reading someone else's diary that
I could relate to very closely, because it is a
very It is like jumping from here to here, to
hear to hear, but you can trace where all of
it is going. I guess my overall takeaway from the
(12:25):
book is this feeling that I have, and I think
a lot of us have, that there's just a lot
we can't control, and like learning how to die whatever
the original title is like what do you do when
you feel like everything's ending but you have to go
(12:48):
on as normal. It reminds me of I had to
write this report on a French book in college called
The Stranger and at the end, like all this horrible
stuff happens, and at the end and the guy looks
at his watch and it's like, oh, it's one PM
or something. Yeah, because it's a man made structure in
the world continues and you have to keep going even
(13:11):
though all of this horrible stuff has happened and continues
to happen. So I don't want to make this sound
dismissive at all, but this book was like a feeling
to me. It was like a five yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Is it definitely. It gets into like that monotony. Yeah,
but the monotony.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Is hair, yeah, and like your relationships and like as
you get older, you are talking about death more and
you are thinking about like, well, I guess gum my.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Use is the thing you and I've talked about, Well
what could we contribute, which was one of the conversations
she has with will if the end of times?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
What do you bring? She's like, I can tell stories.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I'm really great at that, Like she starts off with that,
but I think like my partner and I've talked about
what would it look like going out the grid, how
do we prepare? We've talked about solars We've talked about generators,
We've talked about leaving where the best areas is.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
For possible survival, all those different things.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Like, there's definitely that depth of conversation about what happens
when the government, if the government.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Becomes a dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
As we're slowly maybe seeing what she's talking about in.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Scenes first Donald Trump, she's reacting to not current.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No, and I'm sure our books have gotten even darker.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
We're going to talk about the many themes because there's
tons of things we're gonna pull out on here. I
did we did want to put some quotes in here,
and we'll tell feel about it. It's a little a
little bit out of context. But at the same time,
the context is not always necessary with this book because
she tells jokes. She tells riddles a lot in here,
(15:14):
Like a little jokes about a man and so and
so came into a bar type of conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, and then she was kind of like the insets
of the like what does this mean like like a
QA almost Oh yeah, so yeah. I mean a lot
of things could be taken out of context with this book.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So one of the big things obviously is doom. Yeah,
that's one thing. And this is the quote there's a
period after every disaster in which people wonder around trying
to figure out if it's truly a disaster. Disaster psychologists
use the term at milling to describe most people's default
actions when they find themselves in frightening new situations. So
(15:54):
like being in the middle of it, which I feel
like you don't realize you're in the middle of it
because is coming.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, And I think we've talked about this a
lot before in our trauma episodes, plenty of episodes. But
I think when something bad happens, a lot of us
have a I do. I have a processing period of
I don't know how bad it is yet, So I
(16:23):
don't know how bad whatever has happened. It could get
worse what I'm thinking it is, or maybe it's not
as bad as I think it is. But there is
that period where you're kind of in a limbo state
and not sure, right, I.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Mean, it's kind of like that conversation when people talk
about I couldn't handle that situation, and you don't know
what you can handle until you're in it, and you
really don't realize how bad it was.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Until after the fact.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Like I think people who are in like different situations
where they've been violated or they've been harmed or something,
they don't realize it was harmful and they're like because
they just put it aside.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah. Yeah, And the context of this book, I think
the interesting point she's making is that for a lot
of us, who I mean, she's pretty well off, like
she's doing generally fine in the context of this world
(17:28):
that we live in, but she still has this feeling
that the world is ending. She still has this all
of these overwhelming emotions. There are just things that every
day she thinks about, and I believe a lot of
people can relate to that in terms of it does
(17:51):
feel like we're in a disaster, but also the world
keeps moving, right, Yeah, that sensation is very hard to reconcile.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, yeah, right, there's so obviously the doom of it
all again is like it kind of ties in with
everything else because we wouldn't talk about spirituality, but like
letting go of death. She talks about the character Margo,
who is a Buddhist who helps meditation, and everything is
(18:22):
like very like, no, you're not doing these things. These
are these things happening to you type of conversations and
how you handle it like allmost but it does kind
of like trying to equate doom as just a state
of being.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah it does. But it's also especially
interesting because she has a kid, which I know we've
talked about that before, but having these interactions with her
child when she is having these interactions with the world,
(18:57):
are these thoughts you know, uh, the world and how
do you how do you talk to a child about that?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Right? And she does. She's like, do I talk to him?
Or do I just leave it be?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah? Exactly, like do I ruin everything right now? Or
is it gonna ruin everything if I don't tell him?
Which is better choice?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And then another thing we have is the survivalist ideal.
She supposedically writes survival instructors have a saying get organized
or die. Who's not talking about the chaos in her
time and like things that need to be done, and
the fact that her husband's just like no, yeah, this
is what you do. She's like, wait, how do you
clean up spices? And like he's like, that's what you do.
She's like, I guess I've never noticed it until you
(19:41):
were gone. But he was part of that key factor.
But also he's so organized that it's almost unnerving. I'm like,
what is he organizing for? But yeah again. She also
she and Will have a conversation about if they could
survive because she talks very dupe and gloom and he
(20:02):
loves it. Apparently Will likes it, which is that part
of that attraction to them is that she can be
that gloom oh my god, and he seems to be like, yeah,
okay type of talk. And at one point they talk
about what does what does she bring? And She's like,
a lively conversation, I can do these things, and then
talk about how she can she knows about spitting enough
(20:24):
to attract fish.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
She the fishing thing was a whole. She went down
a rabbit hole catch fish.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I will never forget it. I will remember that gum thing.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's really like, that's one of the survivalist things to
have because it can help from hunger pain as well
as fishing.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I've heard mixed things about the chewing of gum for hunger.
I've heard it can actually make you hungrier in the
long run because you're chewing and you're not getting anything.
But anyway, I do know it's a you know, I
grew up next to his survival, right, That's.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
What I'm saying. I was like, Okay, let's see.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But then she talks about how out of shape she is,
and she's like, yeah, I'm gone, I'm done. She talked
about she can't grow up with a certain amount of
steps because they're going hiking, and she's like, yeah, I'm dead.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
It's over. There's nothing to survive.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, you know at a certain point.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Because she also talked about the bear out running the
bear and the dude was like, I just need to
outrun you.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
She had a lot of quotes in there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Then we have technology as a thing. So that's a
big theme obviously with the in the world. Who's who
has the right to stay and what happens and and
all these things, And this is one of the quotes.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Somehow I get seated halfway down the table from her, Sofia,
I am trapped next to this young techno optimist guy.
He explains that current technology will no longer seem strange
when the generation who didn't grow up with it finally
ages out of the conversation dies. I think he means
his point is that eventually all those who are unnerved
about what is falling away will be gone, and after
(22:10):
that there won't be any more talk of what has
been lost, only of what has been gained.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Ohly, that is so bleak, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Because they all talk about like who survive and essentially
those who like embrace technology are the only ones worth surviving.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, And in the post Trump landscape that she wrote
us in, this is a very relevant conversation. But it
does feel Yeah, anybody who would not agree with us,
just let them die will die out and then.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And then we're here.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
But also like I feel like in tandem because they
talk about they can't wait till they are like lifeless
and they're just you know, beings a part of the
tech world essentially, but then at the same time they're
so impatient for this like neutrality. On top of that,
it's interesting because Sylvia says the only way you can
protect her son is being rich, which.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Is exactly also the tech ideas.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Sylvia was such an interesting character to me, uh, because
she was very She has this podcast, she gets these
tech broue comments, she gets these interviews, but she was
somebody who I think was seeing she was trying to
have these important conversations, which was also but she was
(23:45):
also seeing it's not going anywhere, and these tech bros
are winning, and they're the ones that I'm talking to, right,
And the people who are writing in are also.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Not really no, they're just about save me.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah. And so in the end she ends up like
she stops the show and ends up gardening and is
basically like, well, the world is ending anyway, Like I
tried my past.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
World done right with that? Going on talk about progress,
there's a couple of quotes. It says, a desire for
small government is nothing new. Of course, at the end
of the nineteenth century, a US government officially proposed closing
the Office of Patents. Everything of importance had already been invented,
he said.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And this is really.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Early, like like nineteen I want to say forty, so
d's when that was stated.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And I was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Interesting, when they were trying to save money in the government,
and I'm like we are the opposite, like we're not
having small government, we're having we're having small amount of people.
They want a small dictatorship, but they want to have
the most power, which is interesting. And then another quote,
and then it is another day and another and another,
(25:07):
and I will not go on about this because no
doubt you too have experienced time just and this is
I think that conversation, uh, is it with Margo One
of the conversations with Margo maybe where it's just like
and it is and just is like even when tragedy happens,
(25:27):
it is it just goes on and on and on.
Oh no, I think it's actually with the never mind, No,
it's with the driver that's you boo friends, the older man,
and he just goes on and on and on and
that's it.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
That's the experience. That's progress.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And I'm like, all, damn, yeah, damn, bro, I sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
It's pretty bleak.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
A lot of it is, yeah, but it is. You know,
I would love if listeners wrote in about this. I
just feel like I was relating a lot, because you know,
you have these moments that are like when you tell
them to somebody, they feel small, but in your head
(26:13):
they feel bigger, like this represents more to me than
it sounds when I'm telling you. But those kind of
experiences you have that are, oh, I just talked to
this random person, but that conversation reflects so much about
(26:35):
how you feel in the state of the world as
you view it.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And I only put one quote for anxiety and overthinking
because the entirety of the book is anxiety and overthinking.
But she writes, my brother told me once that he
missed drugs because they made the world stop calling to him.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
And there are those moments like we have.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Those moments are just like we want to stop thinking,
We want to stop it. She kind of talks about
social media in that same way, like the dredging, the
being trained to just click buttons and not having any
kind of patience and just feeling like, you know, the constant.
But at the same time, that's one more thing that
(27:20):
helps you stop thinking about the world.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, essentially.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And I think he was the epitome of overthinking and anxiety.
I feel like, especially when it came to the child,
iris the baby and all the things that he could
do wrong and making mistakes and being a father or
having a kid. I don't know being a father, I
guess it could be the same one the same, but
(27:46):
I feel like having a kid, being responsible for a kid,
him losing sleep, him not being able to sleep, feeling
like he's going to fall off, or like constant.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, And this is something I believe a lot of
us can relate to as well as when you have
those anxiety issues, well you have anxiety and someone else
in your orbit has it to a much higher degree,
it can be really difficult to walk the line between
(28:27):
I understand you and also I I don't know, like
not not a pep talk, but you know, like trying
to be like, but it's not that bad, right, because
it can be really complicated when you have those emotions
(28:48):
as well and you have those feelings as well. And
he was living with Lizzie and so just that whole
thing was I feel like that was a really difficult
relationship for them both.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It was interesting too, because his Catherine character was the
opposite of both of them in that she was like,
I need to take action, we need to do this now.
At one point she was talking about how do you
feel with the current issues of things, and like.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Lizzie takes it broad like broad broad like, well, all.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
This is happening, and this is happening, and there's no
real way of saying anything is good, So I don't
know why you're asking me this, in which Catherin.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I was talking about politics.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Like she was very like, She's like, oh okay, like
y in tune, so much so that it gave Henry
even more anxiety because he didn't want tell her anything,
because she would want to put things into action immediately
to solve it, and he didn't like that. Again, the
opposite of who he was speaking of, which we're going
to talk about. Obviously, there's different forms of relationships here.
(30:00):
Here's a couple of quotes. Here's one says she's talking
about to Tracy, who was a bartender who was watching Will.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And Lizzie Floyd.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
She's like, get that girl, go ahead, why don't you
sleep with her? You have you have free time, whatever,
And Tracy says, sure, sure, I suppose I could go
for someone safe, but I've never felt like this before, never,
And then and then her response Lizzie's responses, but no
one is safe.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I want to tell her what is safe?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I got a question mark like in actuality, what you
think is safe is never safe?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
M hmm. Yeah. Anyone can hurt you. I've leave that firmly.
Anyone can hurt you. Even the people who you care
about can hurt you the most because they grow the
most about you and you care about them the most.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
People who are supposed to be safe are usually not
the safest, whether it's the not chosen family, like your
family family. And then another quote, This is when Ben
is trying to convince her to leave for a couple
of weeks, just for a little bit, a couple of months,
I think, and her He's like, what's keeping you here?
He says, please, I think, But no, I can't even
(31:10):
look at him.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
All these people. I have so many people, you wouldn't
believe it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And she's thinking about Sylvia, her mom, her brother, her
brother's child, Iris, like all of these people who depend
on her. In her mind, the driver, even she considers
the driver who she's like, what happens to him if
I don't use his business Like it's a constant state
of being, of being like I have to be everything
to everybody. I can't take breaks.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, And once again I think a lot of listeners
can relate to that, because if you care about people
and our current state of affairs. Everything feels very precarious. Uh,
and you are constantly thinking about, oh my god, this person,
(31:55):
how can I how can I help them? How can
I help this person? And the driver. You know, even
if it's not somebody who is your family or found family,
it is somebody in your life that you've grown to
care about enough that you're worried about their state of
(32:19):
affairs and what will happen to them.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And then she talks about marriage and being because I'm like,
I'll relate to this in a way like I have
a great relationship, but also like at the same time,
you're like a little bit change. They write funny how
when you're married, all you want is to be anonymous
to each other again. But when you're anonymous, all you
want is to be married and reading together in bed.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Well yeah, even though you are like, I need a break,
but I miss you, I need you here.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yep, grasses are a screener. It is.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It is like conversation and her and Ben's relationship, like
he reminds her, He's like, She's like, I would love
to be in love. He's like, you are in love
with me. I'm right here, and like you would think
he would be infanded, but he's not. He's like, oh,
you know, come on now, calm down, everything's good here.
And they do have a good relationship once again. But
(33:24):
sometimes it just feels stale in comparison to especially when
your concentration is how do we not die?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah? Yeah, and you can when your thoughts are how
do we not die? I think some people do reach
for excitement, and that can be I need to break
from you, let me flirt with this will guy right.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Right, and he just to hit that boundary just a
little touch.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Also, she does talk about being old now, like she
talks about how she's so old at her job that
the kids have started wearing her clothes again and now
she's in fashion. She's like, oh my god, now look
like I'm trying to be with it like them, I
need to go back.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
But I was like, yeah, yep, it comes.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
From And then also talking about the fact that she
has arthritis in her knee and she swore to God
it wasn't because she's too young.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Maybe if you're my age, maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Not, but just saying, but like having that excitement of
this man who's attractive, who as she found out like
dates women who are so attractive finding you attractive. It
was just like feeling wanted in that way is a
new high. Yeah again, a new connection and knowing that
(34:42):
it's fleeting because he was leaving.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
She knew that too.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Not great emotional affairs are not okay, I do not
conn I'm just saying yeah, in that relationship, and then
we have that like the spirituality and morality Okay, it's
all within this book obviously, just like seees out between
the meditation moments between her talking about what she should
do shouldn't do, between not being racist, between like but
(35:10):
at the same time being prejudiced because or being scared
to talk to someone who has a different language because
you don't like know that fear in itself.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So many things in here.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But here's a quote, and I love this quote because
you're talking to reference to the dog. My mother told
me once that each thing, each being has two names.
One is the name by what she's just known in
this world, and the other is a secret name that
it keeps hidden. But if you call it by this name,
it cannot help or respond. This is the name by
which the creature was known in the garden. Of Eden,
(35:41):
and then she tries to find the name of the
dog m hm, because she's like, I know you have
a different name. I need to find out this name.
I'm not gonna lie. I did say that something was
gonna happen with a dog. I was like, why are
you focusing so.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Hard on this dog?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Been trained?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Where the dog gets hurt?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Oh no, it's okay, yeah, anyway, but let's find that
levels because her mom is very spiritual, very religious, to
the point that she goes to churchyard there one day
and her mom is so proud, so proud and so
excited she's there.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
But obviously that's not her thing.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
They do a lot of meditation, specifically Buddhist meditation, which
is like an interesting form of meditation as in fact,
this is one of the mantras that she has from
the meditation. So it's breathing in. I know that I
am of the nature to grow old, breathing out. I
know that I cannot escape old age, breathing in. I
(36:43):
know that I am of the nature to get sick,
breathing out. I know that I cannot escape sickness. Breathing in.
I know that I am of the nature to die
breathing out. I know that I cannot escape dying.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Breathing in.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I know that one day I'll have to let go
of everything and everyone I love, breathing out. I know
there's no way to bring them along like they.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, did it have to be that dark? Once again?
Very bleak.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I feel like one of the parts that she's saying
this is she's watching or her husband is watching over
talking about how they she watches them, and he watches
them in their sleep to see if they're dying and
can't reconcile the fact that he can't stop them from dying. Yeah,
and this is the mantra that he has to stay
in order to let it go.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Uh once again, Yep, it's a it's I feel like
it touches on that once you get older, suddenly death
feels much more prescient than it feels like. I remember
when I was young, I was like, ah, I was
(37:58):
the I was the person who's like, I'll be fine,
And now it's like, well, I could swallow something incorrectly,
that will be the end of me. And so there
are a lot there's a lot of that kind of
thought throughout the book of Just You can't really stop it.
(38:21):
You can't stop it.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
She has a quote in here, young personal worry, what
if nothing I do matters? Old personal worry? What if
everything I do does? And I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yep, yep. Although I would be interested if younger listeners
right in, hey, young, I think in the state of
our world ending, what feels like constant barrage of world
ending news if that feeling is still the same, But
(38:56):
I would say that resonates with me of like, yeah,
when I was young, I was like, oh, sure that
And now I'm like, oh no, everything everything, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
And this is another quote there.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I really liked it because it was just like if
it didn't belong in the spiritualey but it feels like
the comfort, the small comforts that she has. There wasn't many,
but it's there's a heroic tower of folded things on
the table. I spot my favorite shirt, my least depressing underwear.
I go into the bedroom change into them. Now I'm
a brand new person, and I was like, yeah, when
(39:34):
you get into that like comfy but like clean, when
you first take that shower and you feel refreshed, and
then you're wearing everything clean, new, and like you feel
like you can start over before you drop the food
on your on yourself me specifically, but like it is
like I am brand new.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It does feel nice. And I also love the line
my least depressing underwear. I was like, yeah, because mer.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yep, I've worried about throwing away some underwear. Sometimes this
doesn't look good. However, I do whatever I do.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And then another one what it means to be a
good person. A moral person is calculated differently in times
of crisis than in ordinary circumstances. And then she talks
about two situations where one is she pulls up a
slide of people where they're having a picnic and they're
just chilling and they're just hanging out, no big deal.
But then you take the next line and you see
children drowning and they do they're having a nice little picnic,
(40:37):
ignoring that situation, and now they've become monsters. And I
was like, yeah, and this is a Sylvia ism. I
think we get to put it at that. And when
she talks about so, she also has another one about
a plotting and I was.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Like what what.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, where she explains the plotting happened because they were
protecting themselves and I was like, interesting, we didn't have
any other tactics to protect ourselves as humans, like bears.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Can claude things, but applauding.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, oh, but I found that interesting because it does.
She's like, circumstances change what we see are how we
see a group of people. It's that level of understanding
because you see, like people have you know, done amazing
things and solving and crying all these diseases, but they
went through testing on humans and killing people and using
(41:29):
people of specific races as test subjects. Like that makes
some monsters, Like at one point there were heroes. Of course,
mine's a little darker, I guess in that real, but
it's true. And you see what they've done to get
to these answers, You're like, yeah, but that makes them yeah,
cruel and monsters. Like there's this level of indignation and
realizing the morality of it, Like, but what.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
If and how if?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
This book is a lot I will say it's not
as dark as some of the other books that we read,
Like I didn't go into a funk. I think it's
like just lighthearted enough. She puts an enough little equips
and kind of distances emotions from it because it's more thought.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Than events and you know, feelings. But I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
I agree, and I do think for better or worse,
there is a sort of disassociation, dissociation that many of
us can relate to, especially right now when you're going
through when this is your life and every day you're
(42:35):
trying to oh, I've got to do a podcast on cheese,
which I had to do last week. But meanwhile, ron
like having those. It feels odd to be continuing your
life when all of these things are happening, and so
(42:58):
there is there's a layer of distance, as you said,
that I think spares you from as bleak as it is.
It's not going to put you in a spiral, most
likely because probably you're experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
To fill normal.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah. Unfortunately, so well how we feel about that.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
But essentially yeah, yeah, but I did enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I mean, like I said, I felt like I was
reading a diary of somebody that I felt, oh, yes,
this also explains a lot of my emotions.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Right, this is where I am as well, especially about
like can I do this?
Speaker 3 (43:40):
What do I do? How do I handle this? Do
I talk to this person? I'm going to hide in
this hardware store. Now I have to buy a heart.
Now I'm about to buy a hammer exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
We've all been there. We've all been there well. Listeners,
please let us know your thoughts and any any suggestions
for future book club picks. You can email us at
Hello at Steffannever Told You dot com. You can find
us on Blue Scotch Mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You. We're also
on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Common Bureau, and
(44:13):
we have a book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks, It's always too our super produced Christine
or executive and a protubutor Joey.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Stuff Never Told You to production by Heart Radio. For
more podcast from my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny and SMITHA and a loup of stuff
I've never told you are production by Her Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And for this edition a Feminist Book Club, we are
doing an environmental slash, kind of apocalypse, kind of survival theme.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Yeah, survivalist theme. Like, there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
There's a lot of dark themes, speaking of which there
are some mentions of death, end of times.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, I can't think of anything else.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I was very pleasantly surprised that the dog did not die,
So I was very scared of that.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I love that because you're what the content warnings you're
giving is preparing people for something completely different than what it.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Is I think.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
But you're right that they're in there. You're not wrong,
I would say. I would also add like mental health.
There's a lot of mental.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Heal health and addiction. There's definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, so a lot of the things is very like
I feel like it's my mind. But anyway, we're talking
about the book Whether a novel by Jenny affhil So.
The book was a seven year process apparently, and it's
like a before and after reaction to the election of
Donald Trump. So I was like, yeah, okay, this makes
(01:25):
in that context, this book makes a lot of sense
and according to this is according to several different accounts
about this book. For the book, off Phil took the
time to research the climate crisis for the novel, Like
she gets pretty technical and scientific and a few things,
but like not over the top where it feels like,
you know, it's too much. It doesn't feel sci fi.
(01:47):
I'll say that although I was looking for a sci
fi book originally, this is technically kind of hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I feel like we did the sci fi thing with.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The movie okay maybe, but it was like it was
under that categories.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I was like, okay, we'll do that anyway. Back to it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Cli Fi, that's what you called it, cli Fi, That's
what they called it.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I was very surprised. I was like, that's a name.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, it's cli Fi and it's there's I did not know,
and I'm like, well now now I know. Anyway, so
back to this, uh. For the book again, she did
do that research, which I feel like with her research
it does the happinesses, the halplessness, the helplessness, both of
those things kind of like makes sense. With that as
(02:31):
well as the fact that she looked into survivalists and
climate activists and groups, and she actually I think joined
and participated with the Extension Rebellion, which is a environmental
group in the uk UH that participates nonviolent protests, civil protests,
civil action is what it says. So I was like, oh, okay,
like she went, she went in. She also had two
(02:53):
other names for this book, learning to Die, and I
was like, you know what, that's actually a really fitting title.
I like the title whether, but I feel like learning
to Die made more sense.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah again, listeners, you're gonna we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
But.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
What you think IMT is not.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And then the other book other title was American Weather,
and because during everything that was happening with the US
anything titled American, she was.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Like, I don't want it to be associated like that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So I was like, yes, but I could see where
she was coming with that as well, because there's a
line in there about American weather. So with all that,
with the style of this book, we're going to just
do a quick summary and explain her with like, I
want to give you the details of the characters first,
and then kind of how they relate in the book,
because everything is.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Chaotic. I feel like that's the best way to explain.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It still comes in the timeline, but it feels chaotic
because she I feel like she writes like I do
and also thinks like I do in that way of
like it's just constant thought and that thought overlaps with
a thought of that thought because.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
It just spirals.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, where it started from point a and then went
into number three.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
A point a to number three.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, no, no, she it's definitely. I don't think stream
of consciousness is quite accurate, but it's it's very much
like there'll be a short paragraph and then a longer
one and then another short one, and they're just kind
of like random thoughts. Well they're not random, they're they're related,
but they kind of feel like, oh, where did this
come from? And if you think about it, you can see.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Where it came from the lineage.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, but it it was when I was reading it,
I was like, this is a hard book to describe.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Right, That's what it was like.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
At the This is like a feeling almost, it's a thought.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's constant thought, and I've had these thoughts. Yeah, no,
especially older. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, so we'll
go ahead and jump into it again if you haven't
read this. This came out in twenty twenty, so spoiler alert,
and it's a very very short book, to the point
that people were like, it's almost not even a novella,
(05:07):
it's so short. So if you want to go read it.
It is available on different platforms if you can get
it through your library through Lee FM. We have proteconist
Lizzie Benson, a librarian who has all the rambling, anxious
thoughts that I feel like I think most of us do,
especially now, especially as are considering things and what to
(05:28):
do and how to do things. She is our main
voice in this entirety and thoughts. We have her husband, Ben,
so I guess maybe his name is Ben Benson, which
is an interesting name, who is a PhD classic educator
that cannot find a job in his field, so he
goes into it. Their son, Eli, a young kid who
(05:50):
seems way more worldly than necessary, even calling out his
mom saying like, are you sure you're my mom? Because
you don't feel like you're not good enough to be
my mom, which I was like, bat home, and so
I was like, well that's I mean. Her brother, Henry,
who is a recovering addict trying to live a normal life,
but is very fearful and codependent on Lizzie very much.
(06:10):
So we have Sylvia, an old professor who helped Lizzie
get her job even though Lizzie didn't have a degree
at the library. Is also a successful podcaster I know.
I was like, oh, I didn't even know this talking
about the climate crisis. Catherine, who is Henry the brother's
partner because he like we meet her as they meet
in their life and end of relationship, like it goes
(06:33):
all the way through. And we also have Will, a
war reporter who has a special friendship with Lizzie.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I leave it with that.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So in the book, we read the different thoughts that
seem to plague Lizzie as a woman, a wife, a neighbor,
a coworker, a sister, a mother, a daughter, a librarian,
and an overall concerned human like you see all the
aspects of like, oh.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
My god, I'm failing all here.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Through it, we find out that she has concerns as
a parent interacting with other parents, which I love those
conversations going like yeah, I do that not necessarily with parents,
but like clients and such like I gotta avoid talking
to them or how do I talk to them?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Or how do I do these things?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Survival instincts, avoiding certain neighbors, especially with them being somewhat racist,
even though they would say they're not racist, but they're racist.
Trying to figure out could she survive in the end times,
which I thought was hilarious because she talks about using
gum as bait. Yeah I'm gonna remember that, by the way.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, that stuck out to me too.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was like, oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Her brother is slowly recovering from his addiction. He started
a new job writing greeting cards, where he meets Catherine,
a very proactive person who is all about action, so
kind of the opposite of who he is, which is
kind of a concern for him. Who Lizzie is like,
you don't want to date your same person, difference is great,
And she talks about her and her relationship with Ben
and how they're different and how they ask each other
(07:53):
questions and everything is a nice little surprise, and then
with that they decide to get married, and then they
decide to have a baby. During this time, Henry is
struggling with a lot of dark thoughts about the baby,
dying like a lot of dark thoughts, and I'm like, oh,
I think parents go through those, but it got especially
dark of like he's talking about shredding the baby pieces
(08:14):
he's counseling, which eventually leads him to cheating on his
wife and therefore leading to them getting divorced, and he
gets supervised time with the baby Iris, who happens to
be Lizzy. Lizzie's become the rock for them, as well
as her mom as well, who is very religious, talking
about Holler activities, and he does relapse during this time,
(08:36):
but then he comes back and he goes and lives
at Lizzie's home. Ben is one who her husband thinks
about death as well, quite often thinks about the death
of his family. Essentially, he talks about it constantly, but
also a great person is to balance Lizzie when she
gets off kilter as well, so they kind of do
this back and forth, although he does get frustrated with
(08:57):
Henry living there because he is not a good roommate
as she puts it, as well as the darkness of
it all and again the end times about whether or
not how they can survive, what they should have, what
they shouldn't have, At one point they talk about lighters.
Having one hundred lighters is better than having one generator
because generators make too much noise and you can trade lighters.
So they had those type of conversations, and then we
(09:20):
have Eli, who's someone who questions a lot. I also
likes to invent a lot, but also says, don't look
at what I'm inventing because you'll steal it, and I
need to have it for myself, but also wants to
be friends with people, and so he tries to get
his mom to do more so he can be friends
with one specific girl. It finally works awkward interactions, and
he's somewhat independent but dependent on his mother's an interesting dichotomy,
(09:46):
but also gets frustrated with her, like calling her out
for her getting on to him for losing a lunch
box and he's like, are you are you my mother?
Because you don't seem to be good enough to be
my mother. I'm like, well, damn well, damn me, Lie,
that seems unnecessary. But also she he breaks the rules
so he doesn't cry, and it's not sad a lot
so like for him, So all these things. Lizzie is
(10:07):
soon offered a job assisting Sylvia, who is whose podcast
Helen high Water has become successful and there's in need
of assistance, answering the email and going out on different trips.
I felt like this was you in a little bit,
Annie in that, like she was trying to take all
the mean messages or dark messages or sad messages because
(10:27):
it was really affecting Sylvia and actually was affecting Lizzie too,
but it just kept her on like thought trains as
or Sylvia was really collapsing, like I can't take this.
Also her interacting with tech dudes, which she really, really
really hated, so the broad of questions started getting to
Sylvia as well as Lizzie, which eventually leads Lizzie to
(10:49):
stop answering Sylvia's calls and Sylvia going off the grid
to get away from it all, including the insufferable tech
pros and in the world questions and dudes coming up,
being like I have a Russian and a statement.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I love that moment, and I'm like, yeah, that's about right.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
She meets Will, who seems interesting based on his own
attitudes towards war and endings, and then though they never
go beyond dreams and talking, she does find some comfort
in his company while Ben and Eli are visiting Ben's
sister because Ben is now frustrated and needs to get
out of the house because there's too much happening. Yeah,
but nothing be goes of it. Will has kind of
(11:28):
like disappeared, probably going off to more war reporting.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So in the end, everything goes on as normal. End
of story. Yes, so there you go again.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm not putting to justice, and I've left out several
key characters in here, including the driver that she called
in because she feels guilty that he's going to lose
his business if she stops using his service, even though
it is very inconvenient. So all those different things a
lot of good things. How did you feel about this
book any.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I felt like I was reading someone else's diary that
I could relate to very closely, because it is a
very It is like jumping from here to here, to
hear to hear, but you can trace where all of
it is going. I guess my overall takeaway from the
(12:25):
book is this feeling that I have, and I think
a lot of us have, that there's just a lot
we can't control, and like learning how to die whatever
the original title is like what do you do when
you feel like everything's ending but you have to go
(12:48):
on as normal. It reminds me of I had to
write this report on a French book in college called
The Stranger and at the end, like all this horrible
stuff happens, and at the end and the guy looks
at his watch and it's like, oh, it's one PM
or something. Yeah, because it's a man made structure in
the world continues and you have to keep going even
(13:11):
though all of this horrible stuff has happened and continues
to happen. So I don't want to make this sound
dismissive at all, but this book was like a feeling
to me. It was like a five yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Is it definitely. It gets into like that monotony. Yeah,
but the monotony.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Is hair, yeah, and like your relationships and like as
you get older, you are talking about death more and
you are thinking about like, well, I guess gum my.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Use is the thing you and I've talked about, Well
what could we contribute, which was one of the conversations
she has with will if the end of times?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
What do you bring? She's like, I can tell stories.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I'm really great at that, Like she starts off with that,
but I think like my partner and I've talked about
what would it look like going out the grid, how
do we prepare? We've talked about solars We've talked about generators,
We've talked about leaving where the best areas is.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
For possible survival, all those different things.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Like, there's definitely that depth of conversation about what happens
when the government, if the government.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Becomes a dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
As we're slowly maybe seeing what she's talking about in.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Scenes first Donald Trump, she's reacting to not current.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No, and I'm sure our books have gotten even darker.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
We're going to talk about the many themes because there's
tons of things we're gonna pull out on here. I
did we did want to put some quotes in here,
and we'll tell feel about it. It's a little a
little bit out of context. But at the same time,
the context is not always necessary with this book because
she tells jokes. She tells riddles a lot in here,
(15:14):
Like a little jokes about a man and so and
so came into a bar type of conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, and then she was kind of like the insets
of the like what does this mean like like a
QA almost Oh yeah, so yeah. I mean a lot
of things could be taken out of context with this book.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So one of the big things obviously is doom. Yeah,
that's one thing. And this is the quote there's a
period after every disaster in which people wonder around trying
to figure out if it's truly a disaster. Disaster psychologists
use the term at milling to describe most people's default
actions when they find themselves in frightening new situations. So
(15:54):
like being in the middle of it, which I feel
like you don't realize you're in the middle of it
because is coming.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, And I think we've talked about this a
lot before in our trauma episodes, plenty of episodes. But
I think when something bad happens, a lot of us
have a I do. I have a processing period of
I don't know how bad it is yet, So I
(16:23):
don't know how bad whatever has happened. It could get
worse what I'm thinking it is, or maybe it's not
as bad as I think it is. But there is
that period where you're kind of in a limbo state
and not sure, right, I.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Mean, it's kind of like that conversation when people talk
about I couldn't handle that situation, and you don't know
what you can handle until you're in it, and you
really don't realize how bad it was.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Until after the fact.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Like I think people who are in like different situations
where they've been violated or they've been harmed or something,
they don't realize it was harmful and they're like because
they just put it aside.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah. Yeah, And the context of this book, I think
the interesting point she's making is that for a lot
of us, who I mean, she's pretty well off, like
she's doing generally fine in the context of this world
(17:28):
that we live in, but she still has this feeling
that the world is ending. She still has this all
of these overwhelming emotions. There are just things that every
day she thinks about, and I believe a lot of
people can relate to that in terms of it does
(17:51):
feel like we're in a disaster, but also the world
keeps moving, right, Yeah, that sensation is very hard to reconcile.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, yeah, right, there's so obviously the doom of it
all again is like it kind of ties in with
everything else because we wouldn't talk about spirituality, but like
letting go of death. She talks about the character Margo,
who is a Buddhist who helps meditation, and everything is
(18:22):
like very like, no, you're not doing these things. These
are these things happening to you type of conversations and
how you handle it like allmost but it does kind
of like trying to equate doom as just a state
of being.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah it does. But it's also especially
interesting because she has a kid, which I know we've
talked about that before, but having these interactions with her
child when she is having these interactions with the world,
(18:57):
are these thoughts you know, uh, the world and how
do you how do you talk to a child about that?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Right? And she does. She's like, do I talk to him?
Or do I just leave it be?
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah? Exactly, like do I ruin everything right now? Or
is it gonna ruin everything if I don't tell him?
Which is better choice?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And then another thing we have is the survivalist ideal.
She supposedically writes survival instructors have a saying get organized
or die. Who's not talking about the chaos in her
time and like things that need to be done, and
the fact that her husband's just like no, yeah, this
is what you do. She's like, wait, how do you
clean up spices? And like he's like, that's what you do.
She's like, I guess I've never noticed it until you
(19:41):
were gone. But he was part of that key factor.
But also he's so organized that it's almost unnerving. I'm like,
what is he organizing for? But yeah again. She also
she and Will have a conversation about if they could
survive because she talks very dupe and gloom and he
(20:02):
loves it. Apparently Will likes it, which is that part
of that attraction to them is that she can be
that gloom oh my god, and he seems to be like, yeah,
okay type of talk. And at one point they talk
about what does what does she bring? And She's like,
a lively conversation, I can do these things, and then
talk about how she can she knows about spitting enough
(20:24):
to attract fish.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
She the fishing thing was a whole. She went down
a rabbit hole catch fish.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I will never forget it. I will remember that gum thing.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's really like, that's one of the survivalist things to
have because it can help from hunger pain as well
as fishing.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I've heard mixed things about the chewing of gum for hunger.
I've heard it can actually make you hungrier in the
long run because you're chewing and you're not getting anything.
But anyway, I do know it's a you know, I
grew up next to his survival, right, That's.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
What I'm saying. I was like, Okay, let's see.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But then she talks about how out of shape she is,
and she's like, yeah, I'm gone, I'm done. She talked
about she can't grow up with a certain amount of
steps because they're going hiking, and she's like, yeah, I'm dead.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
It's over. There's nothing to survive.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, you know at a certain point.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Because she also talked about the bear out running the
bear and the dude was like, I just need to
outrun you.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
She had a lot of quotes in there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Then we have technology as a thing. So that's a
big theme obviously with the in the world. Who's who
has the right to stay and what happens and and
all these things, And this is one of the quotes.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Somehow I get seated halfway down the table from her, Sofia,
I am trapped next to this young techno optimist guy.
He explains that current technology will no longer seem strange
when the generation who didn't grow up with it finally
ages out of the conversation dies. I think he means
his point is that eventually all those who are unnerved
about what is falling away will be gone, and after
(22:10):
that there won't be any more talk of what has
been lost, only of what has been gained.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Ohly, that is so bleak, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Because they all talk about like who survive and essentially
those who like embrace technology are the only ones worth surviving.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, And in the post Trump landscape that she wrote
us in, this is a very relevant conversation. But it
does feel Yeah, anybody who would not agree with us,
just let them die will die out and then.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And then we're here.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
But also like I feel like in tandem because they
talk about they can't wait till they are like lifeless
and they're just you know, beings a part of the
tech world essentially, but then at the same time they're
so impatient for this like neutrality. On top of that,
it's interesting because Sylvia says the only way you can
protect her son is being rich, which.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Is exactly also the tech ideas.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Sylvia was such an interesting character to me, uh, because
she was very She has this podcast, she gets these
tech broue comments, she gets these interviews, but she was
somebody who I think was seeing she was trying to
have these important conversations, which was also but she was
(23:45):
also seeing it's not going anywhere, and these tech bros
are winning, and they're the ones that I'm talking to, right,
And the people who are writing in are also.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Not really no, they're just about save me.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah. And so in the end she ends up like
she stops the show and ends up gardening and is
basically like, well, the world is ending anyway, Like I
tried my past.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
World done right with that? Going on talk about progress,
there's a couple of quotes. It says, a desire for
small government is nothing new. Of course, at the end
of the nineteenth century, a US government officially proposed closing
the Office of Patents. Everything of importance had already been invented,
he said.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
And this is really.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Early, like like nineteen I want to say forty, so
d's when that was stated.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And I was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Interesting, when they were trying to save money in the government,
and I'm like we are the opposite, like we're not
having small government, we're having we're having small amount of people.
They want a small dictatorship, but they want to have
the most power, which is interesting. And then another quote,
and then it is another day and another and another,
(25:07):
and I will not go on about this because no
doubt you too have experienced time just and this is
I think that conversation, uh, is it with Margo One
of the conversations with Margo maybe where it's just like
and it is and just is like even when tragedy happens,
(25:27):
it is it just goes on and on and on.
Oh no, I think it's actually with the never mind, No,
it's with the driver that's you boo friends, the older man,
and he just goes on and on and on and
that's it.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
That's the experience. That's progress.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And I'm like, all, damn, yeah, damn, bro, I sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
It's pretty bleak.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
A lot of it is, yeah, but it is. You know,
I would love if listeners wrote in about this. I
just feel like I was relating a lot, because you know,
you have these moments that are like when you tell
them to somebody, they feel small, but in your head
(26:13):
they feel bigger, like this represents more to me than
it sounds when I'm telling you. But those kind of
experiences you have that are, oh, I just talked to
this random person, but that conversation reflects so much about
(26:35):
how you feel in the state of the world as
you view it.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And I only put one quote for anxiety and overthinking
because the entirety of the book is anxiety and overthinking.
But she writes, my brother told me once that he
missed drugs because they made the world stop calling to him.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
And there are those moments like we have.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Those moments are just like we want to stop thinking,
We want to stop it. She kind of talks about
social media in that same way, like the dredging, the
being trained to just click buttons and not having any
kind of patience and just feeling like, you know, the constant.
But at the same time, that's one more thing that
(27:20):
helps you stop thinking about the world.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, essentially.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And I think he was the epitome of overthinking and anxiety.
I feel like, especially when it came to the child,
iris the baby and all the things that he could
do wrong and making mistakes and being a father or
having a kid. I don't know being a father, I
guess it could be the same one the same, but
(27:46):
I feel like having a kid, being responsible for a kid,
him losing sleep, him not being able to sleep, feeling
like he's going to fall off, or like constant.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, And this is something I believe a lot of
us can relate to as well as when you have
those anxiety issues, well you have anxiety and someone else
in your orbit has it to a much higher degree,
it can be really difficult to walk the line between
(28:27):
I understand you and also I I don't know, like
not not a pep talk, but you know, like trying
to be like, but it's not that bad, right, because
it can be really complicated when you have those emotions
(28:48):
as well and you have those feelings as well. And
he was living with Lizzie and so just that whole
thing was I feel like that was a really difficult
relationship for them both.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It was interesting too, because his Catherine character was the
opposite of both of them in that she was like,
I need to take action, we need to do this now.
At one point she was talking about how do you
feel with the current issues of things, and like.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Lizzie takes it broad like broad broad like, well, all.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
This is happening, and this is happening, and there's no
real way of saying anything is good, So I don't
know why you're asking me this, in which Catherin.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I was talking about politics.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Like she was very like, She's like, oh okay, like
y in tune, so much so that it gave Henry
even more anxiety because he didn't want tell her anything,
because she would want to put things into action immediately
to solve it, and he didn't like that. Again, the
opposite of who he was speaking of, which we're going
to talk about. Obviously, there's different forms of relationships here.
(30:00):
Here's a couple of quotes. Here's one says she's talking
about to Tracy, who was a bartender who was watching Will.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And Lizzie Floyd.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
She's like, get that girl, go ahead, why don't you
sleep with her? You have you have free time, whatever,
And Tracy says, sure, sure, I suppose I could go
for someone safe, but I've never felt like this before, never,
And then and then her response Lizzie's responses, but no
one is safe.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I want to tell her what is safe?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I got a question mark like in actuality, what you
think is safe is never safe?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
M hmm. Yeah. Anyone can hurt you. I've leave that firmly.
Anyone can hurt you. Even the people who you care
about can hurt you the most because they grow the
most about you and you care about them the most.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
People who are supposed to be safe are usually not
the safest, whether it's the not chosen family, like your
family family. And then another quote, This is when Ben
is trying to convince her to leave for a couple
of weeks, just for a little bit, a couple of months,
I think, and her He's like, what's keeping you here?
He says, please, I think, But no, I can't even
(31:10):
look at him.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
All these people. I have so many people, you wouldn't
believe it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And she's thinking about Sylvia, her mom, her brother, her
brother's child, Iris, like all of these people who depend
on her. In her mind, the driver, even she considers
the driver who she's like, what happens to him if
I don't use his business Like it's a constant state
of being, of being like I have to be everything
to everybody. I can't take breaks.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, And once again I think a lot of listeners
can relate to that, because if you care about people
and our current state of affairs. Everything feels very precarious. Uh,
and you are constantly thinking about, oh my god, this person,
(31:55):
how can I how can I help them? How can
I help this person? And the driver. You know, even
if it's not somebody who is your family or found family,
it is somebody in your life that you've grown to
care about enough that you're worried about their state of
(32:19):
affairs and what will happen to them.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And then she talks about marriage and being because I'm like,
I'll relate to this in a way like I have
a great relationship, but also like at the same time,
you're like a little bit change. They write funny how
when you're married, all you want is to be anonymous
to each other again. But when you're anonymous, all you
want is to be married and reading together in bed.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Well yeah, even though you are like, I need a break,
but I miss you, I need you here.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yep, grasses are a screener. It is.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It is like conversation and her and Ben's relationship, like
he reminds her, He's like, She's like, I would love
to be in love. He's like, you are in love
with me. I'm right here, and like you would think
he would be infanded, but he's not. He's like, oh,
you know, come on now, calm down, everything's good here.
And they do have a good relationship once again. But
(33:24):
sometimes it just feels stale in comparison to especially when
your concentration is how do we not die?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah? Yeah, and you can when your thoughts are how
do we not die? I think some people do reach
for excitement, and that can be I need to break
from you, let me flirt with this will guy right.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Right, and he just to hit that boundary just a
little touch.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Also, she does talk about being old now, like she
talks about how she's so old at her job that
the kids have started wearing her clothes again and now
she's in fashion. She's like, oh my god, now look
like I'm trying to be with it like them, I
need to go back.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
But I was like, yeah, yep, it comes.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
From And then also talking about the fact that she
has arthritis in her knee and she swore to God
it wasn't because she's too young.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Maybe if you're my age, maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Not, but just saying, but like having that excitement of
this man who's attractive, who as she found out like
dates women who are so attractive finding you attractive. It
was just like feeling wanted in that way is a
new high. Yeah again, a new connection and knowing that
(34:42):
it's fleeting because he was leaving.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
She knew that too.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Not great emotional affairs are not okay, I do not
conn I'm just saying yeah, in that relationship, and then
we have that like the spirituality and morality Okay, it's
all within this book obviously, just like seees out between
the meditation moments between her talking about what she should
do shouldn't do, between not being racist, between like but
(35:10):
at the same time being prejudiced because or being scared
to talk to someone who has a different language because
you don't like know that fear in itself.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So many things in here.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But here's a quote, and I love this quote because
you're talking to reference to the dog. My mother told
me once that each thing, each being has two names.
One is the name by what she's just known in
this world, and the other is a secret name that
it keeps hidden. But if you call it by this name,
it cannot help or respond. This is the name by
which the creature was known in the garden. Of Eden,
(35:41):
and then she tries to find the name of the
dog m hm, because she's like, I know you have
a different name. I need to find out this name.
I'm not gonna lie. I did say that something was
gonna happen with a dog. I was like, why are
you focusing so.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Hard on this dog?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Been trained?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Where the dog gets hurt?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Oh no, it's okay, yeah, anyway, but let's find that
levels because her mom is very spiritual, very religious, to
the point that she goes to churchyard there one day
and her mom is so proud, so proud and so
excited she's there.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
But obviously that's not her thing.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
They do a lot of meditation, specifically Buddhist meditation, which
is like an interesting form of meditation as in fact,
this is one of the mantras that she has from
the meditation. So it's breathing in. I know that I
am of the nature to grow old, breathing out. I
know that I cannot escape old age, breathing in. I
(36:43):
know that I am of the nature to get sick,
breathing out. I know that I cannot escape sickness. Breathing in.
I know that I am of the nature to die
breathing out. I know that I cannot escape dying.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Breathing in.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I know that one day I'll have to let go
of everything and everyone I love, breathing out. I know
there's no way to bring them along like they.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, did it have to be that dark? Once again?
Very bleak.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I feel like one of the parts that she's saying
this is she's watching or her husband is watching over
talking about how they she watches them, and he watches
them in their sleep to see if they're dying and
can't reconcile the fact that he can't stop them from dying. Yeah,
and this is the mantra that he has to stay
in order to let it go.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Uh once again, Yep, it's a it's I feel like
it touches on that once you get older, suddenly death
feels much more prescient than it feels like. I remember
when I was young, I was like, ah, I was
(37:58):
the I was the person who's like, I'll be fine,
And now it's like, well, I could swallow something incorrectly,
that will be the end of me. And so there
are a lot there's a lot of that kind of
thought throughout the book of Just You can't really stop it.
(38:21):
You can't stop it.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
She has a quote in here, young personal worry, what
if nothing I do matters? Old personal worry? What if
everything I do does? And I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yep, yep. Although I would be interested if younger listeners
right in, hey, young, I think in the state of
our world ending, what feels like constant barrage of world
ending news if that feeling is still the same, But
(38:56):
I would say that resonates with me of like, yeah,
when I was young, I was like, oh, sure that
And now I'm like, oh no, everything everything, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
And this is another quote there.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I really liked it because it was just like if
it didn't belong in the spiritualey but it feels like
the comfort, the small comforts that she has. There wasn't many,
but it's there's a heroic tower of folded things on
the table. I spot my favorite shirt, my least depressing underwear.
I go into the bedroom change into them. Now I'm
a brand new person, and I was like, yeah, when
(39:34):
you get into that like comfy but like clean, when
you first take that shower and you feel refreshed, and
then you're wearing everything clean, new, and like you feel
like you can start over before you drop the food
on your on yourself me specifically, but like it is
like I am brand new.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It does feel nice. And I also love the line
my least depressing underwear. I was like, yeah, because mer.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yep, I've worried about throwing away some underwear. Sometimes this
doesn't look good. However, I do whatever I do.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And then another one what it means to be a
good person. A moral person is calculated differently in times
of crisis than in ordinary circumstances. And then she talks
about two situations where one is she pulls up a
slide of people where they're having a picnic and they're
just chilling and they're just hanging out, no big deal.
But then you take the next line and you see
children drowning and they do they're having a nice little picnic,
(40:37):
ignoring that situation, and now they've become monsters. And I
was like, yeah, and this is a Sylvia ism. I
think we get to put it at that. And when
she talks about so, she also has another one about
a plotting and I was.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Like what what.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, where she explains the plotting happened because they were
protecting themselves and I was like, interesting, we didn't have
any other tactics to protect ourselves as humans, like bears.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Can claude things, but applauding.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, oh, but I found that interesting because it does.
She's like, circumstances change what we see are how we
see a group of people. It's that level of understanding
because you see, like people have you know, done amazing
things and solving and crying all these diseases, but they
went through testing on humans and killing people and using
(41:29):
people of specific races as test subjects. Like that makes
some monsters, Like at one point there were heroes. Of course,
mine's a little darker, I guess in that real, but
it's true. And you see what they've done to get
to these answers, You're like, yeah, but that makes them yeah,
cruel and monsters. Like there's this level of indignation and
realizing the morality of it, Like, but what.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
If and how if?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
This book is a lot I will say it's not
as dark as some of the other books that we read,
Like I didn't go into a funk. I think it's
like just lighthearted enough. She puts an enough little equips
and kind of distances emotions from it because it's more thought.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Than events and you know, feelings. But I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
I agree, and I do think for better or worse,
there is a sort of disassociation, dissociation that many of
us can relate to, especially right now when you're going
through when this is your life and every day you're
(42:35):
trying to oh, I've got to do a podcast on cheese,
which I had to do last week. But meanwhile, ron
like having those. It feels odd to be continuing your
life when all of these things are happening, and so
(42:58):
there is there's a layer of distance, as you said,
that I think spares you from as bleak as it is.
It's not going to put you in a spiral, most
likely because probably you're experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
To fill normal.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah. Unfortunately, so well how we feel about that.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
But essentially yeah, yeah, but I did enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I mean, like I said, I felt like I was
reading a diary of somebody that I felt, oh, yes,
this also explains a lot of my emotions.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Right, this is where I am as well, especially about
like can I do this?
Speaker 3 (43:40):
What do I do? How do I handle this? Do
I talk to this person? I'm going to hide in
this hardware store. Now I have to buy a heart.
Now I'm about to buy a hammer exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
We've all been there. We've all been there well. Listeners,
please let us know your thoughts and any any suggestions
for future book club picks. You can email us at
Hello at Steffannever Told You dot com. You can find
us on Blue Scotch Mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You. We're also
on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Common Bureau, and
(44:13):
we have a book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks, It's always too our super produced Christine
or executive and a protubutor Joey.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Stuff Never Told You to production by Heart Radio. For
more podcast from my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
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