May 9, 2025 • 55 mins
While we have come a long way in destigmatizing the conversation around pregnancy and mental health, now we need to start talking about solutions. Anney and Samantha dig into the fallout from Covid, and where we go from here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and smoking to Stephen. Never
told you protection I heard it here.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And it is May seven, twenty twenty five. I feel
like we need to put a timestamp here as well
as content warning. We are going to talk about pregnancy
and postpartum depression. I don't think we go into too
much depth of like what causes Like we will talk
about like clinically what causes it and research based, but
we're not going to talk about like specific stories. But yeah,
(00:41):
you know, this might be really heavy topic, especially if
you're suffering through PPD or has just had a rough
time with pregnancy or any of those things. Content warning
because yes, Mother's Day is actually right around the corner,
and we thought we wanted we would do something like
topicala so for a very real episode about motherhood. Of
(01:04):
course we are not mothers, but one thing we know,
being a mom or a parent is work. Like I'm
sure rewarding work, and I've heard that from many of people,
is rewarding work, but work nonetheless, And we wanted to
say first, we see y'all and we know you are
(01:24):
doing amazing, even if you don't always feel like it.
Or for those who have had really hard experiences or
through a lot of disappointments or lost any of that.
We see you, acknowledge you, we love you. Happy Mother's Day.
And with that, it wouldn't be a true Minty episode
if we didn't have a bit of a too realistic
take on it. And I once again blame social media
(01:47):
for this. As I was minding my own dink business
and doom scrolling when a post popped up of a
new mom who was very honest and real with her
experience with post part depression and how it affected her
and her marriage. And I think it's just not just
postpartum depression, but just in general postpartum all the things.
(02:09):
Below it were so many comments talking about their similar
experiences and how it affected them as well, and many
of them just thanking her so in her post, Serena
Kassar Kaser, I'm so sorry if I've just said this wrong,
says postpartum was being hard. Motherhood changed me in the
best ways, but also the worst when it comes to
(02:29):
being a partner. I stopped being the woman he fell
in love with. And below we wanted to read off
some of the comments. One of them said, I don't
even remember the person I was before I had my children.
Another said this is exactly what I went through. I
also felt hate towards him because it seemed like his
life continued and mine stopped. Some others said postpartum mentally
(02:49):
and emotionally changed me as a person. I was always
angry and sad for no reason. Thankfully, my husband understands
and has been the reason I haven't fallen off the ledge.
It's hard, I said, is so hard? Then the added
financial strain is just so much some days. And then
another one said, postpartum changed me. I hardly recognize the
woman I see in the mirror. I feel overtouched by
(03:11):
my babies that I don't even want him to be
close to me, but I miss him. So they're all
over like fifteen hundred comments Anny, fifteen hundred, all stretching
from completely understanding and then also not feeling alone knowing
that they're not the only ones going through this, from
people giving advice on how to navigate this type of
(03:32):
space and time, and several others who have stated this
being part of the reason that they chose not to
have children. I feel like that might have been an
inappropriate for that post, maybe, But as the people who
don't have children, who chose not to have children. Yeah,
that part for me was really real. I was like,
(03:52):
oh damn. And I say this also as a nanny,
like I technically raise kids. They weren't my kids, so
I had a separation. I love them dearly, but they
still weren't my kids. They weren't calling me mom. I was.
You know, I didn't birth them, and I didn't have
the hormonal changes that happened when you birth children.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah. Well yes. And I would just like to say
some people have written into us about this. This is
kind of encapsulating the plot of the movie Night. Hmm.
It's like a lot of these comments are very specific
two things that come up in that movie. So clearly
(04:32):
something is going on.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Right now, and there's so many takes we could go
with this this specific post. We could talk about the
absent dads who are like, what's wrong with you? You know,
why can't you why don't you want to be close
to me, Let's have sex. You just had a baby.
It's not a big deal those guys, to the guys
who really have stepped up and especially and again this
is very heteronormative. She was talking in perspective of her
(04:54):
own relationship with her husband. But they, like, you know,
those who have stepped up and understand are trying to
give them space. I've seen more posts recently of men
talking about how they love their wives and they understand
what they're going through and they're going to do their
damndest to make sure they know that their wives understand
that they are there for them. Like, so like you
(05:15):
have like these both of these scenarios. You had several
people going there talking about yep, and that's why we
got divorced, And I was like, well, you know, okay,
reality took and yeah, so we could talk about that,
the relationship part. We could also talk about the parts,
you know, we kind of did with the whole weaponize
and competence that could play into being part of this.
I just saw someone talking about the study in which
(05:37):
it says women should actually have like are recommended to
have ten hours of sleep because of the way their
body processes, and that a lot of like people who
have just had pet babies. I think one pediatrician had
told the couple that the dad specifically be like, you
need to be the ones unless she has to feed.
You need to wake up because you can function, she cannot.
(05:59):
Like it was like I was like, oh I like that, Dike. Okay,
if this was happening, maybe more babies would be born. Yeah,
you know, just saying but again, the world sucks. So
there's all the we could take that issue, but we're not.
So there's a lot of avenues we could have gone
down this, but we did want to specifically talk about
postpartum depression and the related mental health needs specifically here,
(06:22):
especially with the pandemic with COVID and how that really
really brought to light some of the knees and how
that exacerbated this situation specifically. So partum depression and related
mental health needs has always been a thing, like I said,
not surprising. Again, for the most part, it's been largely
(06:43):
ignored or pushed aside, even given a cutesy name, you know,
passive name like the baby Blues, which I find really irritating,
and I have a feeling like some people probably appreciate
it because they don't want to make it a big thing,
but a lot of other people are like, what the
hell that's really insulting anyway. Of course, for the most part,
(07:06):
the more common temporary filling sadness due to hormonal changes
after birth is what they're referencing, especially in the professional world.
They're not trying to be condescending, although it still feels
like it's condescending, and they're talking about like the temporary stage,
which usually phades away within three weeks, but that term
has been interchange with people suffering from postpartum depression, which
(07:27):
can last for years, and even psychosis, which is the
whole other conversation that we're not getting into specifically in
this episode. There's a lot we could talk about, obviously,
but as more and more families and people actually talk
about it as a need within the mental health field,
more people are recognizing the severity of it, and a
(07:47):
bit of information about what we're talking about from frontiersand
dot org. They say, after giving birth, women undergo significant
hormonal changes that can heavily impact their mental health. These
changes may worsen existing psychological conditions or lead to specific
disorders such as postpartum depression PPD. This period is recognized
at a time of profound depression starting during pregnancy. So
(08:12):
in twenty sixteen, Columbia University actually did do a study
about some preventative measures and more and more studies have
been published about why preventative measures as well as possible
treatments are needed. But in a country that doesn't value
people who get pregnant again as real people or want
to help them, or care about them, or want to
give them five thousand dollars to have a baby because
(08:33):
that'll solve it easy, it's not surprising to see that
they actually don't put any of these great research into practice.
This is from Time dot com. May tell e y'all
and a bridget Fryheart, and I really am sorry if
I bridges y'all name. I don't know if anybody connected
with them. Lessons y'all want to correct this, because you
(08:54):
know that's just a caveat throughout this whole thing. We're
talking a lot. We got a lot of information from
a lot of different So then there are two psychiatrists
and researchers who wrote this and they said, research like
this suggests that there's much more we can do to
prepare new mothers from the transition to parenthood, but we're not.
In the US, there's a striking gap in the time
(09:14):
and resources allocated towards pregnancy versus the postpartum period. While
a woman might visit her OBGI in ten to fifteen
times during pregnancy, she typically only visits once during the
postpartum period, and while it's commonplace for an expectant mother
to take birth education class, it is virtually unheard of
for her to receive postpartum education.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And even though al and Freihart semore normalized contexts for
postpartum it isn't helping in the actual treatment or preventative measures.
They continue in their article quote for early intervention. Few
examples are more relevant than postpartum thyroiditis, which occurs when
the immune system mistakenly attacks the thyroid gland, causing it
to be inflamed. This condition, developed by five percent of
(09:59):
w women, can be effectively treated with medication if recognized early. However,
it often goes undiagnosed because patients assume that the symptoms
unwanted weight loss or gain, fatigue, and anxiety are all
part of the normal postpartum struggle, rather than a treatable issue.
This assumption often gets reinforced by medical doctors, who may
(10:21):
tell new moms that their symptoms are just part of
what happens. The result of delaying treatment is not inconsequential
for approximately twenty percent of diagnosed patients, the condition is permanent.
In a cultural and medical landscape that views postpartum hardship
as normal as an inescapable predetermined outcome, doing more to
(10:42):
prepare for postpartum seems like a moot point. It's no
surprise that eighty eight percent of women feel unprepared to
navigate this period. With more than a third of new
mothers developing a lasting health issue after giving birth and
over forty percent of new mothers developing a pelvic floor disorder,
these numbers are not an inevitability. They're an institutional failure.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
There's so much I have a feeling I'm going to
just pause in between all of those because it's just
it's just exhausting and infuriating that this is. Yes, these
are things that we should be looking at. And the
fact that when we're going to talk about later some
of like actual treatment like medication and such, which not
everything can be has to be medicated, I'm not saying that,
but like research enough didn't come until twenty nineteen nineteen anyway.
(11:33):
So yeah, and this failure has actually cost lives. Oh,
we love such a pro birthplace, don't wait. So here's
a bit from a recent Guardian article titled Becoming a
mother was Impossibly hard during COVID and has anything changed?
And this is by Maggie Doherty. She writes, the CDC
recently reported that eighty percent of US pregnancy related deaths
(11:55):
are preventable, with one in four maternal deaths stemming from
mental health, including suicide or substance abuse overdosed. Historically, postpartum
depression has been undertreated, despite a decade long pushed by
doctors and public health officials to create screening and adequate
treatment measures. To say it is a failure feels like
(12:18):
an understatement, like it's tragedy. And that feels like condescending,
Like there's so many things. It feels criminal. It feels criminal,
especially what we know with the fact and I haven't
talked about this yet, but you've talked a little bit
about this yet, that things like the banning of DEI,
any of that from the CDC and research facilities includes
research like this. And because it says women, yeah, because
(12:43):
for them, like and we know that it's not just
women getting pregnant where we typically say pregnant people, but
because it was geared towards with the word women in
there or female or any of that. That was enough.
That was enough to say it's too woke, so woke.
Oh no, people giving birth so woke? Yet they want
(13:06):
us to give birth, Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But only in the way they.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Want, right and after that, screw you if you die,
too bad for you. And with this, Fela, this is
still like becoming more normal. It's a conversation about PbD,
(13:31):
and Kristen and Caroline actually touched onto the subject and
other mental needs for the pregnant person on their episode
Maternal Mental Health, So you know there's a preview of that.
But this was all that was twenty sixteen, So even
though it wasn't that long ago, it was a long ago. Yeah. Yeah,
I will say most of the conversation or research that
(13:53):
we have been looking at started it in twenty twenty.
So all of that just as a note. But it
is still not being given the correct attention, and things
like the recent pandemic has exacerbated this issue. So we're
going to take a minute, or this entire episode look
at how PbD has been affected by the pandemic and
(14:14):
the handling of pregnancy in general by the US at
this time. So let's take a look at what has
changed during and after the pandemic for pregnant people in general.
The overall impact of the healthcare system when we talked
about this so much at the time, was severe, and
care for the pregnant patients hit hard, really hard. Here's
(14:35):
something from the research analysis by Lisette Sala, Sharon Canleiny,
Cheryl Matheson, Seanna Combs, and Beth Dickerson titled this is
Not what I had imagined motherhood would look like Pregnancy,
postpartum and parenting during COVID nineteen, a qualitative analysis of
the first year since birth so quote. The pandemic had
a devastating impact on the maternal healthcare system across the nation,
(14:58):
with three out of five patients experiencing modified or canceled appointments. Additionally,
patients experienced wide variation in hospital visitor policy, alterations in
their birth plan, unnecessary ob stetric interventions, inadequate postpartum and
breastfaiting support, and early discharged from the hospital. Women were
ushered out of the hospital quickly to avoid potential exposure,
(15:18):
increasing their likelihood of experiencing a negative postpartum outcome.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
On top of the difficulties at the hospitals and offices.
Having limited support from their community also was a big issue.
More from that research quote COVID nineteen, directed quarantines and
social isolation caused women to forego those people they rely
on for help and instead navigate postpartum alone. Support offered
by family and friends, both physically and emotionally, termed instrumental support,
(15:46):
is important to mothers as they recover and access a
buffer for anxiety and depression.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I mean, I think that's an age old saying, you know,
it takes a village and that stars before birth, and
I could not imagine and not having that kind of support.
Of course, we've also heard the nightmares of like, do
you have too much support? We don't need all that either.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
The unwanted support, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And that is something that also we're not going to
get into. But that was some of the positive. They
were like, but at the same time, we had an
excuse not to see the people we didn't want to see, right,
So you know, it wasn't all bad. Again, as the introvert, like,
there's a lot of things that I was like, Oh,
this is gonna be bad for me, but also great
for me. I think this kind of sits in that too.
And according to another research document from the BMC Pregnancy
(16:32):
and Childbirth dot Biomedicentral dot com titled Pregnant and Postpartum
Women's Experience of the Indirect impacts of COVID nineteen pandemic
and high income Countries a Qualitative Evidence Synthesis, they write,
in many countries, pregnant women were encouraged to homestay at home,
receive care through telehealth rather than face to face, and
(16:53):
reduce face to face education. Isolation from family, friends and
peers has negatively impacted women's mental health with increased levels
of anxiety, depression, and stress globally. And again, I feel
like that's an obvious when we talked about the pandemic
that we've all seen that we've all talked about that,
but having that on top of pregnancy hormones, on top
(17:13):
of god knows like financials, instabilities, if your family's not
doing well, like there's so many things. Because we also
know it's a risky time for a lot of pregnant
people because they can be murdered by their partners. Ooh,
you know, we got so many added pressures. And again
with all of that, it isn't surprising to note that
the percentage of people with postpartum depression went up. So
(17:36):
from Michigan Medicine dot Org, Beta Mostafavi and Laura Bailey
wrote in twenty twenty two, one in three new people
who had babies in the beginning of the pandemic experience
postpartum depression, potentially triple pre pandemic levels, while one in
five had major depressive symptoms, according to research led by
the University of Michigan School of Nursing and Michigan Medicine SO.
(17:57):
A separate study from the same UM team also found
that those who gave birth during the first six months
of COVID nineteen reported more distress and anxiety.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And in their article Doctors and Experts talk about this increase.
Quote even before COVID, we were seeing an increasing number
of women with mood and anxiety disorders around the time
of pregnancy, including postpartum depression, said Vanessa Dalton, MD and
pH and Obstetratrician, gynecologists at University of Michigan Health Vaughn
Voidlander Women's Hospital and senior author on both studies. Then
(18:29):
we there in COVID a time when many of us
who were taking care of pregnant women had to prioritize
reducing transmission of the virus. She added, we are starting
to understand the potential consequences these measures had on moms
in terms of isolation and mom's mental health.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Right, and that study from Michigan has really been a
big point for a lot of other researchers as well
as a lot of news articles. The Guardian really focuses
on some of the findings that they had because again,
like getting this research about a pain about a lockdown
was so important, especially when we're talking about postpartum depression,
(19:06):
because no one's actually prioritizing postpartum depression, like we're just
now trying to survive pregnancy. Yeah, you know so, But
this is that conversation. We have to have it there.
If we're going to talk about having children, if we're
going to talk about birth, birthing babies, we need to
talk about maternal health. We have to talk about that
(19:27):
as a whole. It should be all in one yep.
Should it should be. And here's some more information. According
to the previously mentioned Guardian article by Doherty, she writes
doctor Clayton Schuman, Associate professor at the University of Michigan
School of Nursing and the lead author of two studies
on the increased rate of post part of depression PTSD
(19:49):
symptoms during the first year of COVID, said that although
the US was starting to do better at removing stigma
for mental health, quote, we have not really moved the
needle much when it comes to perinatal mental health. Part
of that has to do with the fact that peri
natal illness is predominantly within the realm of women's health.
And we know that if we're going to say women's self,
that's going to be downgraded as a concern.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, we don't care.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It's okay. Are they having a baby? Are they going
to birthday? Great? In the story, so, the article continued
to say, women's health has long been suffering the consequences
of institutionalized medical sexism, which has led to diminished positive
medical outcomes for women. The pandemic exacerbated these conditions to
a critical level, with triple the level of postpartum depression
(20:34):
and anxiety rates. A University of Michigan study found that
a fifth of the women experiencing postpartum depression reported thoughts
of self harm, suicidal ideation, and self harm were already
on the rise in perinatal women before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And she continues writing quote at the height of the pandemic,
women found that every aspect of their birth experience was altered. This,
combined with the stress, isolation, and uncertainty of the pandemic,
has led researchers such as Shame to advocate for an
immediate and robust change to women's reproductive and mental health care.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
It's like, why can't we have him as like our
health represented secretary of health.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Wow, you can't have nice things. I'm not but that's
how it is.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And here we want to pause to say most of
the research just shows that those who were a part
of the research were pretty clear and they knew that
they were suffering through a mental health crisis doing their pregnancy,
and they knew that if they were suffering from postpartum,
which I feel like is something that we have gotten
better at vocalizing we as women but like people. I'm
(21:43):
not pregnant, but I think pregnant people and like those
in motherhood, those are in parenthood have gotten better in
trying to acknowledge these are the rough parts of my
pregnancy or having children as much as we wanted this,
we plan for this, or we didn't, but we're happy
any of those conversations gotten better and recognizing where they are.
Like mental health wise, I feel like we've always talked
(22:06):
about that when they measure themselves, they're a little at better. Uh,
those who like people who get pregnant and such are
better at reading themselves anyway. So I didn't demographics, you know,
I think that that's to be noted. And again, like
in this research, as they were taking majority of the
(22:27):
surveys or any of the questionnaires, they were very upfront
in this conversation and back to that this is not
what I imagine motherhood would look like. Research paper, they
write women who gave birth during the pandemic recognize that
the situation led to an amplification of new mother typical emotions. Generally,
many postpartum women express feelings of fear, anxiety, exhaustion, and
(22:50):
of being overwhelmed. While these emotional states are the expected
norm after giving birth, childbirth during a pandemic meant women
spent their postpartum time at home, isolated with their newborn. Therefore,
there was an amplification of typical emotions that would usually
be assimilated through interactions with other postpartum women during mother's
day outgroups or social gatherings. Due to the lockdown, women
(23:14):
had few ways to normalize their feelings through debriefing during
social groupings. Most participants experienced a loss of physical and
emotional support from family and friends, leaving them to rely
on their spouse or the family living in the same home.
They expressed a need for help navigating the common postpartum
emotional highs and lows. Furthermore, the education and healthier access
(23:35):
interrupted or canceled due to COVID nineteen, women were unable
to assess if their individualized experiences and feelings were typical.
Amplification of new motherhood typical emotions was illustrated with two
sub themes, positive emotional experience and negative emotional experience, which
we're going to talk about and yeah, so they had
both the positive and the negative for example. Quote. Some
(23:58):
of the participants reported that caused them to reevaluate the
importance of different aspects of their lives. They were able
to find gratitude for the special time they had with
their newborn and family quote. It also provided me in
my spouse extra time with our baby that wouldn't have
had outside of these circumstances. So there's that. Other women
quote found strength in themselves despite isolation and identified their
(24:20):
capabilities as a new mother. Lacking outside support people or
access to resources, women gained a deeper insight into what
they were capable of doing for their newborn and family.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And they went on noting when reflecting on their childbirth experience,
significant others were often allowed to be present for birth
and were the sole supportive person present once women were
discharged home. Several participants mentioned enjoying the special time spent
as a newly formed family. One participant expressed feeling like
a stronger couple after childbirth, post hardum and parenting together
(24:52):
with only their spouse for comfort and strength.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Again, though with all of that, which is fantastic, because
we don't want to glaze over that, because we know
that that in itself is amazing, but there are still
negatives to this as well. Here's more. The majority of
women stated they had felt a heightened sense of negative emotions,
including fear, anxiety, isolation, and depression when I could Conventional
access to healthcare providers due to modified appointments resulted in
(25:19):
women feeling a greater fear and anxiety. Regarding COVID nineteen,
one of the comments they had was it made us
even more isolated than we would have been with a newborn,
and anxiety was paralyzing. We still feel the effects. And
I remembered any that I was Actually I worked with
families first, for like, I volunteered with families first when
(25:40):
I was unemployed for like a split second, which actually
reach us out to new parents to see how they're doing,
like as an untrained individual who just volunteers, and I
was like making sure you're okay, are you coming into
your appointments? When's your appointment? Like I did that. I
believe they slashed and it was free, by the way, free,
but they still slashed the funding and so there was
less volunteers.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Hey, yep, that sounds about right.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
You would think that was something like they just had volunteers,
which probably was a problem they shouldn't have. They probably
should have gelselers. Anyway, moving on, do back to those examples.
Another woman say that quote COVID has created an environment
where fear is front and center. Trying to navigate that well.
Being smart but not controlled by fear is tough, and
(26:27):
again This all has to do with also the same
conversation about lacking support during that time, not being able
to just have people come over, being fearful of any
of the sicknesses, like, oh, man, I don't know how.
I don't think most people have forgotten, but there are
still the moments of like, man, that was bad when
we were paralyzing, fear wearing masks just to step outside
(26:47):
of the house, not going anywhere outside of the house,
and spraying everything down.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, I cried.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I can't imagine that with a newborn.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I can't either, because I feel like when you have
a newborn again, neither has our parents. But I've even
felt this with newborns I've been around. I'm like, oh,
what if they accidentally eat something, or if you do this,
or like it's just you're constantly on of Like what
if I turn away for one second, Yeah, they do something,
and then you have COVID come in and COVID you
(27:19):
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
It makes a little more realistic. You don't you didn't know?
And what's so like? I also stumbled upon another why
am my own parent TikTok? I don't know, but another
TikTok in which they were talking about having an experience
where it was like an almost death experience for the
like what they saw their child that was drowned, or
having to like get them through the high leg. But
that never leaves them. They have another trauma that they like,
(27:42):
they're so triggered now because they experienced the possibly losing
their child that they are now hyper focused. And then
I also had that experience where I had friends whose
family feared that and put so much trauma onto them.
They were fearful of that.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
You had that, right, Yeah, I have a friend whose
family is they did have a tragedy in the family. Yeah,
And then after that, understandably, they became very very concerned
and kind of in my friend's experience, overbearing. And it's
(28:21):
just it's one of those really painful things because you
get where they're coming from and get where she come from,
and it's just like a really painful.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Experience, especially now that we're adulthood and like we could
have children and we have like family friends who have
children or are like we have nieces or nephews. I'm like,
we still we were like, oh lord, yeah, that's less real,
and I could imagine and then having COVID which actually
was killing people without and there was really no understanding
at the time at the beginning of this. Oh yeah,
(28:52):
I'm panic just thinking about it. Parents. Yes, speed got speed.
So yeah. As one woman from that social media post
which inspired this episode actually talked about the financial impact
that really was a burden for them. From that same
research paper, they write COVID nineteen impacted women and their
(29:14):
families financially through lost jobs and wages, increased prices on
household items, and costly testing and treatment for illness, And
they continue participants saw an increase in the need to
focus on schooling and childcare in the home. COVID nineteen
created competing roles for mothers, including caregiver, teacher of their children,
and diligent virtual employee. With a lack of childcare and
(29:35):
increased fear of COVID nineteen transmission, some women had to
make a choice between parenting and working. Women are often
fulfilling many roles, all while recovering from childbirth and bonding
with their newborn. Now we had a huge I think
we've had several Monday minis about this, specifically about mothers
coming back to work and having to navigate the space
(29:56):
of being now a teacher, a babysitter, a parent, a wife,
like all of those things, and how that actually hurt
them even though they were doing it all from home
and they're supposed to have a partner, but the partner
oftentimes were not helpful.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Or not as much as they should have been at rest.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, like the balance was real, real wonkish, and the
amount of time they had to not only spend caretaking,
but the amount of planning. And we talked about that
as well throughout the day for new parents going through
this learning curve without as many supportive networks that happened
pre pandemic. So you have all of these things, including
(30:35):
the fact that you had to plan in dinners and
then plan bedtimes and plan bath times, and plan homework
and plan outdoor activities, trying to social life, and then
the whole like push to be non iPad parents. And
I'm like, take that iPad and watch it. I'm just
kidding you do you If you can do that, that's amazing,
(30:56):
that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I feel like at the beginning of the pandemic too,
we were all we were much more energetic at our efforts.
And so I remember I had some friends, we had kids,
and they were doing like the bubble hangouts. Yeah, but
it just sounded like so much work. It's different than
what you and I did. It was like a whole ordeal,
and I was just saying, oh geez, And those bubble
(31:21):
hangouts fell off pretty quick. But because you know, you
wanted the children, not necessarily babies, but they wanted the
kids to have this interaction, and it was just too
much on top of everything else.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Like in general. And you know, again for those who
maybe this was the first child and they hadn't quite
had the baby yet, but that pre planning and trying
to get everything done in an unknown atmosphere. And again,
researchers I've talked about this as well, and they mentioned
the lack of education for new parents. So here's a
quote from that same research saying participants complained about the
(31:53):
lack of education on various subjects related to pregnancy, childbirth,
and postpartum that were previously available prior to COVID nineteen,
mothers wanted to engage with healthcare providers or more experienced
mothers to learn about what to expect. Moving to virtual
prenatal visits and cancelations of childbirth education and hospital tours
caused many mothers to arrive at the hospital for birth
(32:14):
uneducated and fearful at my anxiety. I need to know
where to park, so half the time I will drive
to that new location. So having a baby and not
knowing anything about the facility, I mean, don't get me wrong,
I know people have done that when like unexpected birds
happen or you know, all these things. But to not
(32:34):
even be able to like plan ahead or even have
this conversation of what this looks like, because I'm sure
the providers didn't know either, especially at the beginning of
the pandemic. They didn't know how to navigate this and
this whole Like we've become pros at the like video
conferencing now, I say, as we still hate the platform
we're using today, but but like then that was still new.
(33:00):
That was still kind of like you only use that
if you were out of the country and had to
talk to someone in a different country.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, And it's just like not a great feeling
when you know childbirth is dangerous anyway right in this country.
It's not a great feeling when you roll up and
you're like, I don't know, well they even have space
for me. Because that was a big talk during COVID too,
was like could get there, and they might be like nope, night.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And only one person. Oftentimes the partner couldn't come with
if there was a partner or even like your mother
or any supportive person you wanted there, Oh yeah, they continue.
There are no ways for mothers, especially first time mothers,
to adequately prepare for what they were going to experience. Furthermore,
many mothers planned on participating in groups with other mothers
offered at their church or neighborhood. However, with all events
(33:51):
and groups canceled, mothers instead were left to figure out
postpartum and parenting by themselves. If a woman chose to breastfeed,
that she did not have the option of lactation, consultation,
or another mother to visit and ask for advice. Many
participants focused on the severe lack of postpartum education and
support as a contributor to their negative feeling.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And back to that study from the University of Michigan
quote Schumann says he was surprised by the numbers. A
third of women screened positive for depression and a fifth
for major depression. One in five who screened positive for
postpartum depression reported thoughts of harming themselves. He said the
findings were especially concerning following a Michigan Medicine led study
that found increased prevalence of suicidal thoughts and self harm
(34:43):
among childbearing women. Treatment is pivotal to recovery, he said.
Resources and education about postpartum depression must be better disseminated
and implemented. These resources should be shared with the general
public to reduce stigma, and shared with those who provide
social and emotional support to postpartum patients, such as partners
and family members.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Right, so we jumped from obviously talking about the education
to this. So a couple of things, like the breastfeeding
has been a big point of contention and a lot
of these conversations and research, there's a lot of controversy
we have. I have no opinion. I have no opinion.
I can say that I have not looked up any
(35:24):
of that.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I know.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Either of these things are complicated. This is a complicated
subject apparently because people get upset about people breastfraiting in
public when I'm like, yeah, they got to feed their children.
Calm down anyway. But all of that to say is
there's a lot to be said in that lactation consultation
I've seen. I've seen some shows Sorry Sally Parents, but
(35:47):
they do talk about the seriousness and the feelings connected
to breastfaiting, whether it's feeling like you're failure, feeling like
it's too much, feeling it like it's painful, Like there's
so much to that, and so there is a level
of need in education for this. So when they without that,
that causes a whole new crisis, especially in trying to
feed your child. And then back to the whole fact
(36:08):
of that, self harm and suicidal ideation is not talked
about in the pregnancy world. I don't think we talk
about that enough, obviously, because that's not even a thought
that pops into my head when I think about pregnant people.
My first I said, you're good, you're healthy, you want this,
You're good, all right, great, like all of those conversations,
(36:28):
but like outside of so many other people who just
have perhaps anxiety and depression, but like that level and
depth of fear because of whatever hormonal changes, whatever environmental changes.
There's so much to this, and it's not talked about enough,
point blank, and then having an isolation we know we
(36:50):
know what isolation depression does.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, yeah, you got all those hormonal changes. And just like,
I think we've discussed this so many times, but we'd
love to societally paint motherhood is like this beautiful thing.
You must be so happy. This is the greatest thing.
So I think it makes sense that we haven't looked
into suicidal ideation when it comes to pregnant people, or
(37:17):
even depression when it accounts to pregnant people.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I mean, we have to give it names like baby blues.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Right, You're like, it's just a baby blues.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I really want to throw things from I hear that
for some reason. So here are some of the themes
that emerge from that study. Five themes emerged heightened emotional distress,
adverse breastfeeding experiences, unanticipated hospital policy changes, shifting birthing plans,
expectation versus reality or mourning, the experience of what should
have been and expected benefits of the pandemic. They also
(37:50):
talk about social distancing and infection control measures contributed to
increased guilt, isolation, and depression, and postpartum parents and many
were denied pre pandemic coping mechanism and experience. A lack
of support, and this is what the US human had relayed,
which again like we're about to tap into this because
that whole level of guilt that we've talked about this
(38:11):
as individuals, when we fill depressed but then feel guilty
for filling the press when everybody you know, like that
build on. Imagine that. Imagine that as a pregnant person,
Like there's so many levels to this as well as
pregnant people, pandemic hospital visits, anxiety like birthing, breastfeeding, like planning.
If you were Type A or OCD, this is the
(38:34):
nightmare I would imagine.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, and I do remember we did a Monday mini
early on in the pandemic where we were talking about
the kind of baby bump that happens, yes, and it
was called COVID babies, and a couple of people wrote
in like called in was like, you know, this was
actually a really horrible experience for me, and I kind
(38:57):
of don't like that it's being termed as like.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Oh, it was COVID baby, not baby boomer.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
No, it's a very stressful thing that happened, and I'm
really sad on my plans fell Apart from.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
You, we don't want to talk about this, but this
was not in the plans, right, Or it was in
the plans but not the timing. So many things. Yeah,
and one of the biggest themes within these factors of
many other pregnant people was that they felt like they
were doing it wrong and blaming themselves. So here's a
quote they say, moms say they felt like no matter
(39:33):
what they did, it was wrong. And this is from
the human Some women shifted birthing plans, for instance, switching
from in hospital to out of hospital births or elective
inductions to avoid a trip to the hospital. Restrictive vegetations
was described by one mom whose duela was prohibited from
attending her birth as heartbreaking and yeah, dulas are important,
(39:54):
so if they have that as a part of plan,
I'm sure that was devastating. Dalton, who's pre obvious research
have explored the relationship between depression, anxiety, and cincariaty deliveries
among pregnant women, said when expectations around labor and delivery
don't match the day itself, it can lead to intense disappointment.
People have very deep feelings and excitement around having a baby,
(40:16):
she said. They often have a vision about what that
day should look like when things go differently, there may
be feelings of loss because the event wasn't what they
always dreamed of. Add on the biological reasons women experience
depression after pregnancy and all of the disruptions to the
labor and delivery experience over the last two years, and
you can understand how COVID could exacerbate mental health issues
(40:36):
in this population. So there's again all that level, like
the planning, the anxiety coming through it, having a birth plan,
having that shattered, not having a birth blank because you
can't have a birth plan, you can't have the extra
support like a doula, which a lot of people have
recommended and have said that has been amazing for them
because they've become advocates when oftentimes the doctors, not all
(40:58):
doctors obviously Schumann would be a good one, when doctors
ignore their patients in their own bodies or their their requests.
So all of that could be very devastating. Again, not
having your mom there, if you've dreamed of having your mom,
there could be a heartbreaking moment not being able to
have their husband there and hold your hands, which I
(41:19):
think they did like lighten up those roles towards the
middle or end when the vaccines happened, right, I think so, yeah, yeah,
I think that if I remember correctly, so it did
change up because it was so harsh and again not
having an advocate, especially when it comes to what we'll
have to do as SCESAIA and we're gonna have to
do emergency surgery. There's all of these complications because yes,
(41:41):
giving birth is dangerous, and if you're medicated or if
you're under stressed, you might not be able to make
a call. Like, there's so many things to this that
I could not imagine. Ya, my heart is racing just
thinking about it. Again, I'm one of those I'm like, yeah,
that's why. That's one of one of the reasons I
(42:02):
did not want children. So with all of that, where
does that leave us? Yes, society has allowed for more
pregnant people to actually talk about the realities of postpartum
depression and mental health. And I feel like during again,
we got a lot of great research in the last
four years five years, But is that the same thing
(42:22):
as actually getting treatment or care. Well, back to that
Times article we started out with, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, here's a quote. This normalization has been a net
game for society. We as a culture needed to destigmatize
talking about the postpartum struggle to improve maternal wellbeing. But
as two psychologists specializing in women's health, we've recently come
to a surprising realization maybe all this normalization has a
dark side. In our culture's noble attempt to encourage talking
(42:54):
about postpartum pain and illness, we have inadvertently normalized the
experience of postparts pain and illness.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
It's one of those things that I think gradually going
into Yeah, that's what women go through.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
That's just how it is.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Mm hmm, you can handle it. They were built for this, right,
so they go on to explain. Today we find ourselves
in a societal and medical climate that views postpartum health
as an inescapable part of early motherhood. But this resignation
runs counter to a wealth of research indicating otherwise. Many
(43:31):
postpartum health issues such as mood disorders, urinary incontinence, and
metabolic dysfunction, can be effectively treated or in some cases,
entirely prevented. By overnormalizing the discussion of postpartum struggle, we
have limited the much needed broader discussion around early and
preventative care yeah. I keep thinking about the amount of
(43:52):
people who talk about being ripped and cut and then
having the uh what is it the husband stitch, which
y'all do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I
punch somebody without consent most of the time, by the way.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, yeah, Well, it's also just like it's a huge
medical procedure. Your body's direcked.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Leave me be why why But like the conversation about
the incontinence, like the amount of things like is there
are they just going like, Eh, that's just normal child birth, sorry,
instead of actually helping, like the mound of people who
break their butt bone yep. And don't get me wrong,
we understand it's stressful all these things, and if you
(44:42):
don't want to do all those other medical possibilities, that's fine.
But should we actually look to see if we could
ease the procedure at all? No? Nah, this is Eve's
send to us. That's what she handed down the central crisis.
But going on back to the Times article, doctor avar
(45:04):
Ram who wrote a book Hormone Intelligence, and she writes
common and normal are different. Just because so many women
experience something doesn't mean it's inherent to our biology. Being
a woman is not a diagnosis. Amen. Women's health issues
are often treated as inherent part of being female, rather
than conditions warranting serious attention, research and systemic overhaul. Like
(45:29):
that's I think that's you know again the bigger conversation
when it comes to women's health at all, point blank.
And also why it's important that we have actual research
with all types inclusion.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
What a novel idea?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Again, the writers for time, they do acknowledge normalizing is good,
is a good step in finding a solution or treatment,
but this should only be a beginning step, so they
continue normalization serves as an important purpose to destigmatize and educate,
to extract truth from the shadows and cast it in
the light. In the US, the postpartum struggles needed an
(46:21):
era of normalization. But we should view this as a
stepping stone rather than a destination. Again, I think that
makes perfect sense, Like, yes, we need to be able
to talk about this, women need to talk about this now.
We need to see this as a collective problem, not
just a conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, I had a stepping stone. Al and Freihart have
some suggestions, they write quote to meaningfully fix the current
state of postpartum care. Multiple systems need to be redesigned,
from government policies to standard medical protocols. For most of us,
though the thought of overhauling these systems can figure impossible
and disempowering, but there is something We do have power
(47:04):
over our narratives. It is essential that we shift from
a narrative that over normalizes the postpartum struggle to one
of preventative care, one that refuses to accept it as normal.
We need to leave behind the notion of that's just
how things are and replace it with it shouldn't have
to be this way.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And actually they do get some good examples, and I
did note earlier because I've seen more tiktoks in which
South Korea has one, which I think they write eight
out of ten mothers will stay at care centers after
giving birth, and they have everything fresh mills, childcare, classes, pilates,
massage facials, all those things. They even provide in home
(47:43):
cleaning and laundry services. Makes sense. Of course, again they're
not doing it right either, necessarily about women in general,
because the birth rate is really far down. But that
type of postpartum care is amazing. New Zealand they write
after giving birth moms can stay at a local birthing
(48:04):
center free of charge, where they will receive one on
one care for them and their babies. Which these sound amazing.
This should be a thing, yeah, instead of funding wars.
But anyway, and apparently pediatricians have stepped up to fill
that space in helping to treat the parents. So this
is from that Guardian article written by Doherty. She writes,
(48:27):
if women aren't seeing their healthcare providers about emotional complications
during the perinatal period, they do typically take their babies
to the pediatricians, and these visits provide a critical opportunity
to expand care from the baby to the parents and
offer mental health screening to parents regardless of gender. Some
pediatricians have therefore become substitutes for family health care on
(48:48):
the frontline and detecting postpartum depression. Logan's Children's practice in Callyspill, Montana,
sorry began to incorporate postpartum depression and screening during well
infant checkups in twenty twenty, and in twenty nineteen, the
AAP reported that roughly half of its providers offered maternal
depressions screening. Again, COVID HIT change a lot of things
(49:11):
and it prompted the AAP to recommend that pediatricians conduct
validated screening at each other well infant visits at one, two, four,
and six months to help improve diagnosis and referrals for treatment.
So they increased it. I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
And it seems to have been effective. She continues quote.
Doctor John Cole, pediatrician at Logan Children's, has noticed many
positive results for postpartum depression since it instituted the screening
tool four years ago. The reaction from parents has been
fairly favorable. He noted, I think the parents feel comfortable
talking with us. He said, we just have a lot
(49:46):
more touch points with mothers and fathers than they would
otherwise have with their ob providers. Since the pandemic, his
office has seen an uptick in cases, but what surprised
him is the number of women in families who were
already seeking treatment and support for it. It's promising that
many of these women have already spoken with their midwife
(50:07):
or OBI about this and are on treatments. He said.
The practice provides additional screening and recommendations for follow up treatment,
and he says both men and women, especially new parents,
should have a primary doctor to ensure that they are
receiving regular healthcare checkups.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, and that's amazing. And I think that's again where
we note and have that conversation about the all oftentimes
that pregnant people are recognizing they need help, they're just
not getting it. They're just not able to find it,
they're not able to access it. There's also a bigger
conversation about how the marginalized communities are offered even less
services and offered even less help. Again, when we talked
(50:45):
about the fact that a lot of the parents having
a stay at home job, we have many people who
we couldn't have stay at home jobs. They were essential workers,
which felt very interesting in that conversation in itself. And
so we're not even able to stay at home. So
there's so many things to that level that we are
we have not gotten into and I haven't seen the research.
(51:06):
Maybe I need to be more specific with that research,
because it is that conversation to about the lack of
opportunities for certain groups of people when it comes to
access in general, and we've talked about it millions of
times and everything, but pregnancy and children are a big,
huge red flag when it comes to the divisiveness and
who gets what types of treatment in this area. I
(51:29):
will say also in twenty twenty three, the FDA did
approve the first oral treatment for postpartum depression, and this
is from the FDA dot gov. The US Food and
Drug Administration approved zarzuv or zorod alone, which is the
first oral medication indicated to treat postpartum depression and adults.
(51:50):
They talk about some of the risks, but in general
they see this as being effective. They go on to
say that this treatment in adults was demonstrated in two
randomized double debt blah blah blah blahs. EVO controlled many studies,
in many studies, y'all, and the trial participants were women
with PPD who met all the rec requirements and patients
(52:12):
received all these things and it did well for a
majority of the patients. Again, this is also one of
those things where different people have different needs. Certain people
have allergies and such, so there was side effects that
you have to look out for. But again twenty twenty three,
that is a big step that they actually found a
treatment or looked for a treatment in itself. Now we'll
(52:34):
say in twenty nineteen, the first actual medication which is
brixent alone was approved, and this is an injection for IVS,
so obviously I think it's probably pretty soon after childbirth
the way that it's administered, I'm assuming. But those are
two great things. Again, it was twenty nineteen when that
(52:55):
first one was approved, so wow, and again twenty twenty
four when the oral pill was created, so great. But wow.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah, I mean that's long been an issue where not
only do we not not run have scientific stadies on women,
pregnancy is a big one, and I'm going to assume
even post pregnancy there's just not been a lot at.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
All well as we've seen in this administration after birthday
don't care. Yes, again, these are good steps. This medications
are good steps, but we have to talk about the
fact that this is just a part of the treatment
that is needed and not necessarily the whole treatment. And
this level of conversation about preventative treatments is big again
(53:51):
about it being inclusive of the entire family. I think
that's also something that we don't talk enough about. But
the pandemic and obviously all of that affected what we
have seen and how how treatments have been given. We're
back here now and obviously have been a little more
relaxed since then. We shouldn't be Honestly, I don't know
(54:13):
if we need to be completely shut down, but we
should be cautious in masking and doing all those things.
But you know, that's a whole different episode. There's the
depth of conversation that needs to be had now that
we've normalized that. We need to stop making it seem
that this is okay and that's all that is needed
is just a conversation. We need to open it up
to treatments and counseling and education, like they need to
(54:34):
direct that money that they're sending to that dough just
been saving by cutting these programs specifically, I guess, but
there you go. I know that's that's again. This is
very like brief like conversation, an hour less than an
hour conversation in this topic. And there's so much more
that need to be said. Obviously, we are not professionals.
(54:56):
We did not do this depth of research and surveys
and questions, but we think it's important that we have
these conversations, even if we're not the ones that are
getting pregnant. This affects all of us, This affects all
the people in our community and we need to be
talking about why research like this is so important.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Absolutely, and as always, listeners, if you have any thoughts
about this, please let us know. You can email us
at Hello at Stephannever Told You dot com. You can
find us on blue Sky Moster podcasts, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff Never Told You for us on YouTube.
We have a tea public store and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Gris, Senior Executiveroducer Maya
(55:36):
and your contruder Joey. Thank you. Thanks to you for
listening Stuff Never Told You Structure by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or where really listen
to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and smoking to Stephen. Never
told you protection I heard it here.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And it is May seven, twenty twenty five. I feel
like we need to put a timestamp here as well
as content warning. We are going to talk about pregnancy
and postpartum depression. I don't think we go into too
much depth of like what causes Like we will talk
about like clinically what causes it and research based, but
we're not going to talk about like specific stories. But yeah,
(00:41):
you know, this might be really heavy topic, especially if
you're suffering through PPD or has just had a rough
time with pregnancy or any of those things. Content warning
because yes, Mother's Day is actually right around the corner,
and we thought we wanted we would do something like
topicala so for a very real episode about motherhood. Of
(01:04):
course we are not mothers, but one thing we know,
being a mom or a parent is work. Like I'm
sure rewarding work, and I've heard that from many of people,
is rewarding work, but work nonetheless, And we wanted to
say first, we see y'all and we know you are
(01:24):
doing amazing, even if you don't always feel like it.
Or for those who have had really hard experiences or
through a lot of disappointments or lost any of that.
We see you, acknowledge you, we love you. Happy Mother's Day.
And with that, it wouldn't be a true Minty episode
if we didn't have a bit of a too realistic
take on it. And I once again blame social media
(01:47):
for this. As I was minding my own dink business
and doom scrolling when a post popped up of a
new mom who was very honest and real with her
experience with post part depression and how it affected her
and her marriage. And I think it's just not just
postpartum depression, but just in general postpartum all the things.
(02:09):
Below it were so many comments talking about their similar
experiences and how it affected them as well, and many
of them just thanking her so in her post, Serena
Kassar Kaser, I'm so sorry if I've just said this wrong,
says postpartum was being hard. Motherhood changed me in the
best ways, but also the worst when it comes to
(02:29):
being a partner. I stopped being the woman he fell
in love with. And below we wanted to read off
some of the comments. One of them said, I don't
even remember the person I was before I had my children.
Another said this is exactly what I went through. I
also felt hate towards him because it seemed like his
life continued and mine stopped. Some others said postpartum mentally
(02:49):
and emotionally changed me as a person. I was always
angry and sad for no reason. Thankfully, my husband understands
and has been the reason I haven't fallen off the ledge.
It's hard, I said, is so hard? Then the added
financial strain is just so much some days. And then
another one said, postpartum changed me. I hardly recognize the
woman I see in the mirror. I feel overtouched by
(03:11):
my babies that I don't even want him to be
close to me, but I miss him. So they're all
over like fifteen hundred comments Anny, fifteen hundred, all stretching
from completely understanding and then also not feeling alone knowing
that they're not the only ones going through this, from
people giving advice on how to navigate this type of
(03:32):
space and time, and several others who have stated this
being part of the reason that they chose not to
have children. I feel like that might have been an
inappropriate for that post, maybe, But as the people who
don't have children, who chose not to have children. Yeah,
that part for me was really real. I was like,
(03:52):
oh damn. And I say this also as a nanny,
like I technically raise kids. They weren't my kids, so
I had a separation. I love them dearly, but they
still weren't my kids. They weren't calling me mom. I was.
You know, I didn't birth them, and I didn't have
the hormonal changes that happened when you birth children.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah. Well yes. And I would just like to say
some people have written into us about this. This is
kind of encapsulating the plot of the movie Night. Hmm.
It's like a lot of these comments are very specific
two things that come up in that movie. So clearly
(04:32):
something is going on.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Right now, and there's so many takes we could go
with this this specific post. We could talk about the
absent dads who are like, what's wrong with you? You know,
why can't you why don't you want to be close
to me, Let's have sex. You just had a baby.
It's not a big deal those guys, to the guys
who really have stepped up and especially and again this
is very heteronormative. She was talking in perspective of her
(04:54):
own relationship with her husband. But they, like, you know,
those who have stepped up and understand are trying to
give them space. I've seen more posts recently of men
talking about how they love their wives and they understand
what they're going through and they're going to do their
damndest to make sure they know that their wives understand
that they are there for them. Like, so like you
(05:15):
have like these both of these scenarios. You had several
people going there talking about yep, and that's why we
got divorced, And I was like, well, you know, okay,
reality took and yeah, so we could talk about that,
the relationship part. We could also talk about the parts,
you know, we kind of did with the whole weaponize
and competence that could play into being part of this.
I just saw someone talking about the study in which
(05:37):
it says women should actually have like are recommended to
have ten hours of sleep because of the way their
body processes, and that a lot of like people who
have just had pet babies. I think one pediatrician had
told the couple that the dad specifically be like, you
need to be the ones unless she has to feed.
You need to wake up because you can function, she cannot.
(05:59):
Like it was like I was like, oh I like that, Dike. Okay,
if this was happening, maybe more babies would be born. Yeah,
you know, just saying but again, the world sucks. So
there's all the we could take that issue, but we're not.
So there's a lot of avenues we could have gone
down this, but we did want to specifically talk about
postpartum depression and the related mental health needs specifically here,
(06:22):
especially with the pandemic with COVID and how that really
really brought to light some of the knees and how
that exacerbated this situation specifically. So partum depression and related
mental health needs has always been a thing, like I said,
not surprising. Again, for the most part, it's been largely
(06:43):
ignored or pushed aside, even given a cutesy name, you know,
passive name like the baby Blues, which I find really irritating,
and I have a feeling like some people probably appreciate
it because they don't want to make it a big thing,
but a lot of other people are like, what the
hell that's really insulting anyway. Of course, for the most part,
(07:06):
the more common temporary filling sadness due to hormonal changes
after birth is what they're referencing, especially in the professional world.
They're not trying to be condescending, although it still feels
like it's condescending, and they're talking about like the temporary stage,
which usually phades away within three weeks, but that term
has been interchange with people suffering from postpartum depression, which
(07:27):
can last for years, and even psychosis, which is the
whole other conversation that we're not getting into specifically in
this episode. There's a lot we could talk about, obviously,
but as more and more families and people actually talk
about it as a need within the mental health field,
more people are recognizing the severity of it, and a
(07:47):
bit of information about what we're talking about from frontiersand
dot org. They say, after giving birth, women undergo significant
hormonal changes that can heavily impact their mental health. These
changes may worsen existing psychological conditions or lead to specific
disorders such as postpartum depression PPD. This period is recognized
at a time of profound depression starting during pregnancy. So
(08:12):
in twenty sixteen, Columbia University actually did do a study
about some preventative measures and more and more studies have
been published about why preventative measures as well as possible
treatments are needed. But in a country that doesn't value
people who get pregnant again as real people or want
to help them, or care about them, or want to
give them five thousand dollars to have a baby because
(08:33):
that'll solve it easy, it's not surprising to see that
they actually don't put any of these great research into practice.
This is from Time dot com. May tell e y'all
and a bridget Fryheart, and I really am sorry if
I bridges y'all name. I don't know if anybody connected
with them. Lessons y'all want to correct this, because you
(08:54):
know that's just a caveat throughout this whole thing. We're
talking a lot. We got a lot of information from
a lot of different So then there are two psychiatrists
and researchers who wrote this and they said, research like
this suggests that there's much more we can do to
prepare new mothers from the transition to parenthood, but we're not.
In the US, there's a striking gap in the time
(09:14):
and resources allocated towards pregnancy versus the postpartum period. While
a woman might visit her OBGI in ten to fifteen
times during pregnancy, she typically only visits once during the
postpartum period, and while it's commonplace for an expectant mother
to take birth education class, it is virtually unheard of
for her to receive postpartum education.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And even though al and Freihart semore normalized contexts for
postpartum it isn't helping in the actual treatment or preventative measures.
They continue in their article quote for early intervention. Few
examples are more relevant than postpartum thyroiditis, which occurs when
the immune system mistakenly attacks the thyroid gland, causing it
to be inflamed. This condition, developed by five percent of
(09:59):
w women, can be effectively treated with medication if recognized early. However,
it often goes undiagnosed because patients assume that the symptoms
unwanted weight loss or gain, fatigue, and anxiety are all
part of the normal postpartum struggle, rather than a treatable issue.
This assumption often gets reinforced by medical doctors, who may
(10:21):
tell new moms that their symptoms are just part of
what happens. The result of delaying treatment is not inconsequential
for approximately twenty percent of diagnosed patients, the condition is permanent.
In a cultural and medical landscape that views postpartum hardship
as normal as an inescapable predetermined outcome, doing more to
(10:42):
prepare for postpartum seems like a moot point. It's no
surprise that eighty eight percent of women feel unprepared to
navigate this period. With more than a third of new
mothers developing a lasting health issue after giving birth and
over forty percent of new mothers developing a pelvic floor disorder,
these numbers are not an inevitability. They're an institutional failure.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
There's so much I have a feeling I'm going to
just pause in between all of those because it's just
it's just exhausting and infuriating that this is. Yes, these
are things that we should be looking at. And the
fact that when we're going to talk about later some
of like actual treatment like medication and such, which not
everything can be has to be medicated, I'm not saying that,
but like research enough didn't come until twenty nineteen nineteen anyway.
(11:33):
So yeah, and this failure has actually cost lives. Oh,
we love such a pro birthplace, don't wait. So here's
a bit from a recent Guardian article titled Becoming a
mother was Impossibly hard during COVID and has anything changed?
And this is by Maggie Doherty. She writes, the CDC
recently reported that eighty percent of US pregnancy related deaths
(11:55):
are preventable, with one in four maternal deaths stemming from
mental health, including suicide or substance abuse overdosed. Historically, postpartum
depression has been undertreated, despite a decade long pushed by
doctors and public health officials to create screening and adequate
treatment measures. To say it is a failure feels like
(12:18):
an understatement, like it's tragedy. And that feels like condescending,
Like there's so many things. It feels criminal. It feels criminal,
especially what we know with the fact and I haven't
talked about this yet, but you've talked a little bit
about this yet, that things like the banning of DEI,
any of that from the CDC and research facilities includes
research like this. And because it says women, yeah, because
(12:43):
for them, like and we know that it's not just
women getting pregnant where we typically say pregnant people, but
because it was geared towards with the word women in
there or female or any of that. That was enough.
That was enough to say it's too woke, so woke.
Oh no, people giving birth so woke? Yet they want
(13:06):
us to give birth, Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But only in the way they.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Want, right and after that, screw you if you die,
too bad for you. And with this, Fela, this is
still like becoming more normal. It's a conversation about PbD,
(13:31):
and Kristen and Caroline actually touched onto the subject and
other mental needs for the pregnant person on their episode
Maternal Mental Health, So you know there's a preview of that.
But this was all that was twenty sixteen, So even
though it wasn't that long ago, it was a long ago. Yeah. Yeah,
I will say most of the conversation or research that
(13:53):
we have been looking at started it in twenty twenty.
So all of that just as a note. But it
is still not being given the correct attention, and things
like the recent pandemic has exacerbated this issue. So we're
going to take a minute, or this entire episode look
at how PbD has been affected by the pandemic and
(14:14):
the handling of pregnancy in general by the US at
this time. So let's take a look at what has
changed during and after the pandemic for pregnant people in general.
The overall impact of the healthcare system when we talked
about this so much at the time, was severe, and
care for the pregnant patients hit hard, really hard. Here's
(14:35):
something from the research analysis by Lisette Sala, Sharon Canleiny,
Cheryl Matheson, Seanna Combs, and Beth Dickerson titled this is
Not what I had imagined motherhood would look like Pregnancy,
postpartum and parenting during COVID nineteen, a qualitative analysis of
the first year since birth so quote. The pandemic had
a devastating impact on the maternal healthcare system across the nation,
(14:58):
with three out of five patients experiencing modified or canceled appointments. Additionally,
patients experienced wide variation in hospital visitor policy, alterations in
their birth plan, unnecessary ob stetric interventions, inadequate postpartum and
breastfaiting support, and early discharged from the hospital. Women were
ushered out of the hospital quickly to avoid potential exposure,
(15:18):
increasing their likelihood of experiencing a negative postpartum outcome.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
On top of the difficulties at the hospitals and offices.
Having limited support from their community also was a big issue.
More from that research quote COVID nineteen, directed quarantines and
social isolation caused women to forego those people they rely
on for help and instead navigate postpartum alone. Support offered
by family and friends, both physically and emotionally, termed instrumental support,
(15:46):
is important to mothers as they recover and access a
buffer for anxiety and depression.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I mean, I think that's an age old saying, you know,
it takes a village and that stars before birth, and
I could not imagine and not having that kind of support.
Of course, we've also heard the nightmares of like, do
you have too much support? We don't need all that either.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
The unwanted support, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And that is something that also we're not going to
get into. But that was some of the positive. They
were like, but at the same time, we had an
excuse not to see the people we didn't want to see, right,
So you know, it wasn't all bad. Again, as the introvert, like,
there's a lot of things that I was like, Oh,
this is gonna be bad for me, but also great
for me. I think this kind of sits in that too.
And according to another research document from the BMC Pregnancy
(16:32):
and Childbirth dot Biomedicentral dot com titled Pregnant and Postpartum
Women's Experience of the Indirect impacts of COVID nineteen pandemic
and high income Countries a Qualitative Evidence Synthesis, they write,
in many countries, pregnant women were encouraged to homestay at home,
receive care through telehealth rather than face to face, and
(16:53):
reduce face to face education. Isolation from family, friends and
peers has negatively impacted women's mental health with increased levels
of anxiety, depression, and stress globally. And again, I feel
like that's an obvious when we talked about the pandemic
that we've all seen that we've all talked about that,
but having that on top of pregnancy hormones, on top
(17:13):
of god knows like financials, instabilities, if your family's not
doing well, like there's so many things. Because we also
know it's a risky time for a lot of pregnant
people because they can be murdered by their partners. Ooh,
you know, we got so many added pressures. And again
with all of that, it isn't surprising to note that
the percentage of people with postpartum depression went up. So
(17:36):
from Michigan Medicine dot Org, Beta Mostafavi and Laura Bailey
wrote in twenty twenty two, one in three new people
who had babies in the beginning of the pandemic experience
postpartum depression, potentially triple pre pandemic levels, while one in
five had major depressive symptoms, according to research led by
the University of Michigan School of Nursing and Michigan Medicine SO.
(17:57):
A separate study from the same UM team also found
that those who gave birth during the first six months
of COVID nineteen reported more distress and anxiety.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And in their article Doctors and Experts talk about this increase.
Quote even before COVID, we were seeing an increasing number
of women with mood and anxiety disorders around the time
of pregnancy, including postpartum depression, said Vanessa Dalton, MD and
pH and Obstetratrician, gynecologists at University of Michigan Health Vaughn
Voidlander Women's Hospital and senior author on both studies. Then
(18:29):
we there in COVID a time when many of us
who were taking care of pregnant women had to prioritize
reducing transmission of the virus. She added, we are starting
to understand the potential consequences these measures had on moms
in terms of isolation and mom's mental health.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Right, and that study from Michigan has really been a
big point for a lot of other researchers as well
as a lot of news articles. The Guardian really focuses
on some of the findings that they had because again,
like getting this research about a pain about a lockdown
was so important, especially when we're talking about postpartum depression,
(19:06):
because no one's actually prioritizing postpartum depression, like we're just
now trying to survive pregnancy. Yeah, you know so, But
this is that conversation. We have to have it there.
If we're going to talk about having children, if we're
going to talk about birth, birthing babies, we need to
talk about maternal health. We have to talk about that
(19:27):
as a whole. It should be all in one yep.
Should it should be. And here's some more information. According
to the previously mentioned Guardian article by Doherty, she writes
doctor Clayton Schuman, Associate professor at the University of Michigan
School of Nursing and the lead author of two studies
on the increased rate of post part of depression PTSD
(19:49):
symptoms during the first year of COVID, said that although
the US was starting to do better at removing stigma
for mental health, quote, we have not really moved the
needle much when it comes to perinatal mental health. Part
of that has to do with the fact that peri
natal illness is predominantly within the realm of women's health.
And we know that if we're going to say women's self,
that's going to be downgraded as a concern.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, we don't care.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It's okay. Are they having a baby? Are they going
to birthday? Great? In the story, so, the article continued
to say, women's health has long been suffering the consequences
of institutionalized medical sexism, which has led to diminished positive
medical outcomes for women. The pandemic exacerbated these conditions to
a critical level, with triple the level of postpartum depression
(20:34):
and anxiety rates. A University of Michigan study found that
a fifth of the women experiencing postpartum depression reported thoughts
of self harm, suicidal ideation, and self harm were already
on the rise in perinatal women before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And she continues writing quote at the height of the pandemic,
women found that every aspect of their birth experience was altered. This,
combined with the stress, isolation, and uncertainty of the pandemic,
has led researchers such as Shame to advocate for an
immediate and robust change to women's reproductive and mental health care.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
It's like, why can't we have him as like our
health represented secretary of health.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Wow, you can't have nice things. I'm not but that's
how it is.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And here we want to pause to say most of
the research just shows that those who were a part
of the research were pretty clear and they knew that
they were suffering through a mental health crisis doing their pregnancy,
and they knew that if they were suffering from postpartum,
which I feel like is something that we have gotten
better at vocalizing we as women but like people. I'm
(21:43):
not pregnant, but I think pregnant people and like those
in motherhood, those are in parenthood have gotten better in
trying to acknowledge these are the rough parts of my
pregnancy or having children as much as we wanted this,
we plan for this, or we didn't, but we're happy
any of those conversations gotten better and recognizing where they are.
Like mental health wise, I feel like we've always talked
(22:06):
about that when they measure themselves, they're a little at better. Uh,
those who like people who get pregnant and such are
better at reading themselves anyway. So I didn't demographics, you know,
I think that that's to be noted. And again, like
in this research, as they were taking majority of the
(22:27):
surveys or any of the questionnaires, they were very upfront
in this conversation and back to that this is not
what I imagine motherhood would look like. Research paper, they
write women who gave birth during the pandemic recognize that
the situation led to an amplification of new mother typical emotions. Generally,
many postpartum women express feelings of fear, anxiety, exhaustion, and
(22:50):
of being overwhelmed. While these emotional states are the expected
norm after giving birth, childbirth during a pandemic meant women
spent their postpartum time at home, isolated with their newborn. Therefore,
there was an amplification of typical emotions that would usually
be assimilated through interactions with other postpartum women during mother's
day outgroups or social gatherings. Due to the lockdown, women
(23:14):
had few ways to normalize their feelings through debriefing during
social groupings. Most participants experienced a loss of physical and
emotional support from family and friends, leaving them to rely
on their spouse or the family living in the same home.
They expressed a need for help navigating the common postpartum
emotional highs and lows. Furthermore, the education and healthier access
(23:35):
interrupted or canceled due to COVID nineteen, women were unable
to assess if their individualized experiences and feelings were typical.
Amplification of new motherhood typical emotions was illustrated with two
sub themes, positive emotional experience and negative emotional experience, which
we're going to talk about and yeah, so they had
both the positive and the negative for example. Quote. Some
(23:58):
of the participants reported that caused them to reevaluate the
importance of different aspects of their lives. They were able
to find gratitude for the special time they had with
their newborn and family quote. It also provided me in
my spouse extra time with our baby that wouldn't have
had outside of these circumstances. So there's that. Other women
quote found strength in themselves despite isolation and identified their
(24:20):
capabilities as a new mother. Lacking outside support people or
access to resources, women gained a deeper insight into what
they were capable of doing for their newborn and family.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And they went on noting when reflecting on their childbirth experience,
significant others were often allowed to be present for birth
and were the sole supportive person present once women were
discharged home. Several participants mentioned enjoying the special time spent
as a newly formed family. One participant expressed feeling like
a stronger couple after childbirth, post hardum and parenting together
(24:52):
with only their spouse for comfort and strength.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Again, though with all of that, which is fantastic, because
we don't want to glaze over that, because we know
that that in itself is amazing, but there are still
negatives to this as well. Here's more. The majority of
women stated they had felt a heightened sense of negative emotions,
including fear, anxiety, isolation, and depression when I could Conventional
access to healthcare providers due to modified appointments resulted in
(25:19):
women feeling a greater fear and anxiety. Regarding COVID nineteen,
one of the comments they had was it made us
even more isolated than we would have been with a newborn,
and anxiety was paralyzing. We still feel the effects. And
I remembered any that I was Actually I worked with
families first, for like, I volunteered with families first when
(25:40):
I was unemployed for like a split second, which actually
reach us out to new parents to see how they're doing,
like as an untrained individual who just volunteers, and I
was like making sure you're okay, are you coming into
your appointments? When's your appointment? Like I did that. I
believe they slashed and it was free, by the way, free,
but they still slashed the funding and so there was
less volunteers.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Hey, yep, that sounds about right.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
You would think that was something like they just had volunteers,
which probably was a problem they shouldn't have. They probably
should have gelselers. Anyway, moving on, do back to those examples.
Another woman say that quote COVID has created an environment
where fear is front and center. Trying to navigate that well.
Being smart but not controlled by fear is tough, and
(26:27):
again This all has to do with also the same
conversation about lacking support during that time, not being able
to just have people come over, being fearful of any
of the sicknesses, like, oh, man, I don't know how.
I don't think most people have forgotten, but there are
still the moments of like, man, that was bad when
we were paralyzing, fear wearing masks just to step outside
(26:47):
of the house, not going anywhere outside of the house,
and spraying everything down.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, I cried.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I can't imagine that with a newborn.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I can't either, because I feel like when you have
a newborn again, neither has our parents. But I've even
felt this with newborns I've been around. I'm like, oh,
what if they accidentally eat something, or if you do this,
or like it's just you're constantly on of Like what
if I turn away for one second, Yeah, they do something,
and then you have COVID come in and COVID you
(27:19):
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
It makes a little more realistic. You don't you didn't know?
And what's so like? I also stumbled upon another why
am my own parent TikTok? I don't know, but another
TikTok in which they were talking about having an experience
where it was like an almost death experience for the
like what they saw their child that was drowned, or
having to like get them through the high leg. But
that never leaves them. They have another trauma that they like,
(27:42):
they're so triggered now because they experienced the possibly losing
their child that they are now hyper focused. And then
I also had that experience where I had friends whose
family feared that and put so much trauma onto them.
They were fearful of that.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
You had that, right, Yeah, I have a friend whose
family is they did have a tragedy in the family. Yeah,
And then after that, understandably, they became very very concerned
and kind of in my friend's experience, overbearing. And it's
(28:21):
just it's one of those really painful things because you
get where they're coming from and get where she come from,
and it's just like a really painful.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Experience, especially now that we're adulthood and like we could
have children and we have like family friends who have
children or are like we have nieces or nephews. I'm like,
we still we were like, oh lord, yeah, that's less real,
and I could imagine and then having COVID which actually
was killing people without and there was really no understanding
at the time at the beginning of this. Oh yeah,
(28:52):
I'm panic just thinking about it. Parents. Yes, speed got speed.
So yeah. As one woman from that social media post
which inspired this episode actually talked about the financial impact
that really was a burden for them. From that same
research paper, they write COVID nineteen impacted women and their
(29:14):
families financially through lost jobs and wages, increased prices on
household items, and costly testing and treatment for illness, And
they continue participants saw an increase in the need to
focus on schooling and childcare in the home. COVID nineteen
created competing roles for mothers, including caregiver, teacher of their children,
and diligent virtual employee. With a lack of childcare and
(29:35):
increased fear of COVID nineteen transmission, some women had to
make a choice between parenting and working. Women are often
fulfilling many roles, all while recovering from childbirth and bonding
with their newborn. Now we had a huge I think
we've had several Monday minis about this, specifically about mothers
coming back to work and having to navigate the space
(29:56):
of being now a teacher, a babysitter, a parent, a wife,
like all of those things, and how that actually hurt
them even though they were doing it all from home
and they're supposed to have a partner, but the partner
oftentimes were not helpful.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Or not as much as they should have been at rest.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, like the balance was real, real wonkish, and the
amount of time they had to not only spend caretaking,
but the amount of planning. And we talked about that
as well throughout the day for new parents going through
this learning curve without as many supportive networks that happened
pre pandemic. So you have all of these things, including
(30:35):
the fact that you had to plan in dinners and
then plan bedtimes and plan bath times, and plan homework
and plan outdoor activities, trying to social life, and then
the whole like push to be non iPad parents. And
I'm like, take that iPad and watch it. I'm just
kidding you do you If you can do that, that's amazing,
(30:56):
that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I feel like at the beginning of the pandemic too,
we were all we were much more energetic at our efforts.
And so I remember I had some friends, we had kids,
and they were doing like the bubble hangouts. Yeah, but
it just sounded like so much work. It's different than
what you and I did. It was like a whole ordeal,
and I was just saying, oh geez, And those bubble
(31:21):
hangouts fell off pretty quick. But because you know, you
wanted the children, not necessarily babies, but they wanted the
kids to have this interaction, and it was just too
much on top of everything else.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Like in general. And you know, again for those who
maybe this was the first child and they hadn't quite
had the baby yet, but that pre planning and trying
to get everything done in an unknown atmosphere. And again,
researchers I've talked about this as well, and they mentioned
the lack of education for new parents. So here's a
quote from that same research saying participants complained about the
(31:53):
lack of education on various subjects related to pregnancy, childbirth,
and postpartum that were previously available prior to COVID nineteen,
mothers wanted to engage with healthcare providers or more experienced
mothers to learn about what to expect. Moving to virtual
prenatal visits and cancelations of childbirth education and hospital tours
caused many mothers to arrive at the hospital for birth
(32:14):
uneducated and fearful at my anxiety. I need to know
where to park, so half the time I will drive
to that new location. So having a baby and not
knowing anything about the facility, I mean, don't get me wrong,
I know people have done that when like unexpected birds
happen or you know, all these things. But to not
(32:34):
even be able to like plan ahead or even have
this conversation of what this looks like, because I'm sure
the providers didn't know either, especially at the beginning of
the pandemic. They didn't know how to navigate this and
this whole Like we've become pros at the like video
conferencing now, I say, as we still hate the platform
we're using today, but but like then that was still new.
(33:00):
That was still kind of like you only use that
if you were out of the country and had to
talk to someone in a different country.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, And it's just like not a great feeling
when you know childbirth is dangerous anyway right in this country.
It's not a great feeling when you roll up and
you're like, I don't know, well they even have space
for me. Because that was a big talk during COVID too,
was like could get there, and they might be like nope, night.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And only one person. Oftentimes the partner couldn't come with
if there was a partner or even like your mother
or any supportive person you wanted there, Oh yeah, they continue.
There are no ways for mothers, especially first time mothers,
to adequately prepare for what they were going to experience. Furthermore,
many mothers planned on participating in groups with other mothers
offered at their church or neighborhood. However, with all events
(33:51):
and groups canceled, mothers instead were left to figure out
postpartum and parenting by themselves. If a woman chose to breastfeed,
that she did not have the option of lactation, consultation,
or another mother to visit and ask for advice. Many
participants focused on the severe lack of postpartum education and
support as a contributor to their negative feeling.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And back to that study from the University of Michigan
quote Schumann says he was surprised by the numbers. A
third of women screened positive for depression and a fifth
for major depression. One in five who screened positive for
postpartum depression reported thoughts of harming themselves. He said the
findings were especially concerning following a Michigan Medicine led study
that found increased prevalence of suicidal thoughts and self harm
(34:43):
among childbearing women. Treatment is pivotal to recovery, he said.
Resources and education about postpartum depression must be better disseminated
and implemented. These resources should be shared with the general
public to reduce stigma, and shared with those who provide
social and emotional support to postpartum patients, such as partners
and family members.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Right, so we jumped from obviously talking about the education
to this. So a couple of things, like the breastfeeding
has been a big point of contention and a lot
of these conversations and research, there's a lot of controversy
we have. I have no opinion. I have no opinion.
I can say that I have not looked up any
(35:24):
of that.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I know.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Either of these things are complicated. This is a complicated
subject apparently because people get upset about people breastfraiting in
public when I'm like, yeah, they got to feed their children.
Calm down anyway. But all of that to say is
there's a lot to be said in that lactation consultation
I've seen. I've seen some shows Sorry Sally Parents, but
(35:47):
they do talk about the seriousness and the feelings connected
to breastfaiting, whether it's feeling like you're failure, feeling like
it's too much, feeling it like it's painful, Like there's
so much to that, and so there is a level
of need in education for this. So when they without that,
that causes a whole new crisis, especially in trying to
feed your child. And then back to the whole fact
(36:08):
of that, self harm and suicidal ideation is not talked
about in the pregnancy world. I don't think we talk
about that enough, obviously, because that's not even a thought
that pops into my head when I think about pregnant people.
My first I said, you're good, you're healthy, you want this,
You're good, all right, great, like all of those conversations,
(36:28):
but like outside of so many other people who just
have perhaps anxiety and depression, but like that level and
depth of fear because of whatever hormonal changes, whatever environmental changes.
There's so much to this, and it's not talked about enough,
point blank, and then having an isolation we know we
(36:50):
know what isolation depression does.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, yeah, you got all those hormonal changes. And just like,
I think we've discussed this so many times, but we'd
love to societally paint motherhood is like this beautiful thing.
You must be so happy. This is the greatest thing.
So I think it makes sense that we haven't looked
into suicidal ideation when it comes to pregnant people, or
(37:17):
even depression when it accounts to pregnant people.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I mean, we have to give it names like baby blues.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Right, You're like, it's just a baby blues.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I really want to throw things from I hear that
for some reason. So here are some of the themes
that emerge from that study. Five themes emerged heightened emotional distress,
adverse breastfeeding experiences, unanticipated hospital policy changes, shifting birthing plans,
expectation versus reality or mourning, the experience of what should
have been and expected benefits of the pandemic. They also
(37:50):
talk about social distancing and infection control measures contributed to
increased guilt, isolation, and depression, and postpartum parents and many
were denied pre pandemic coping mechanism and experience. A lack
of support, and this is what the US human had relayed,
which again like we're about to tap into this because
that whole level of guilt that we've talked about this
(38:11):
as individuals, when we fill depressed but then feel guilty
for filling the press when everybody you know, like that
build on. Imagine that. Imagine that as a pregnant person,
Like there's so many levels to this as well as
pregnant people, pandemic hospital visits, anxiety like birthing, breastfeeding, like planning.
If you were Type A or OCD, this is the
(38:34):
nightmare I would imagine.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, and I do remember we did a Monday mini
early on in the pandemic where we were talking about
the kind of baby bump that happens, yes, and it
was called COVID babies, and a couple of people wrote
in like called in was like, you know, this was
actually a really horrible experience for me, and I kind
(38:57):
of don't like that it's being termed as like.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Oh, it was COVID baby, not baby boomer.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
No, it's a very stressful thing that happened, and I'm
really sad on my plans fell Apart from.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
You, we don't want to talk about this, but this
was not in the plans, right, Or it was in
the plans but not the timing. So many things. Yeah,
and one of the biggest themes within these factors of
many other pregnant people was that they felt like they
were doing it wrong and blaming themselves. So here's a
quote they say, moms say they felt like no matter
(39:33):
what they did, it was wrong. And this is from
the human Some women shifted birthing plans, for instance, switching
from in hospital to out of hospital births or elective
inductions to avoid a trip to the hospital. Restrictive vegetations
was described by one mom whose duela was prohibited from
attending her birth as heartbreaking and yeah, dulas are important,
(39:54):
so if they have that as a part of plan,
I'm sure that was devastating. Dalton, who's pre obvious research
have explored the relationship between depression, anxiety, and cincariaty deliveries
among pregnant women, said when expectations around labor and delivery
don't match the day itself, it can lead to intense disappointment.
People have very deep feelings and excitement around having a baby,
(40:16):
she said. They often have a vision about what that
day should look like when things go differently, there may
be feelings of loss because the event wasn't what they
always dreamed of. Add on the biological reasons women experience
depression after pregnancy and all of the disruptions to the
labor and delivery experience over the last two years, and
you can understand how COVID could exacerbate mental health issues
(40:36):
in this population. So there's again all that level, like
the planning, the anxiety coming through it, having a birth plan,
having that shattered, not having a birth blank because you
can't have a birth plan, you can't have the extra
support like a doula, which a lot of people have
recommended and have said that has been amazing for them
because they've become advocates when oftentimes the doctors, not all
(40:58):
doctors obviously Schumann would be a good one, when doctors
ignore their patients in their own bodies or their their requests.
So all of that could be very devastating. Again, not
having your mom there, if you've dreamed of having your mom,
there could be a heartbreaking moment not being able to
have their husband there and hold your hands, which I
(41:19):
think they did like lighten up those roles towards the
middle or end when the vaccines happened, right, I think so, yeah, yeah,
I think that if I remember correctly, so it did
change up because it was so harsh and again not
having an advocate, especially when it comes to what we'll
have to do as SCESAIA and we're gonna have to
do emergency surgery. There's all of these complications because yes,
(41:41):
giving birth is dangerous, and if you're medicated or if
you're under stressed, you might not be able to make
a call. Like, there's so many things to this that
I could not imagine. Ya, my heart is racing just
thinking about it. Again, I'm one of those I'm like, yeah,
that's why. That's one of one of the reasons I
(42:02):
did not want children. So with all of that, where
does that leave us? Yes, society has allowed for more
pregnant people to actually talk about the realities of postpartum
depression and mental health. And I feel like during again,
we got a lot of great research in the last
four years five years, But is that the same thing
(42:22):
as actually getting treatment or care. Well, back to that
Times article we started out with, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, here's a quote. This normalization has been a net
game for society. We as a culture needed to destigmatize
talking about the postpartum struggle to improve maternal wellbeing. But
as two psychologists specializing in women's health, we've recently come
to a surprising realization maybe all this normalization has a
dark side. In our culture's noble attempt to encourage talking
(42:54):
about postpartum pain and illness, we have inadvertently normalized the
experience of postparts pain and illness.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
It's one of those things that I think gradually going
into Yeah, that's what women go through.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
That's just how it is.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Mm hmm, you can handle it. They were built for this, right,
so they go on to explain. Today we find ourselves
in a societal and medical climate that views postpartum health
as an inescapable part of early motherhood. But this resignation
runs counter to a wealth of research indicating otherwise. Many
(43:31):
postpartum health issues such as mood disorders, urinary incontinence, and
metabolic dysfunction, can be effectively treated or in some cases,
entirely prevented. By overnormalizing the discussion of postpartum struggle, we
have limited the much needed broader discussion around early and
preventative care yeah. I keep thinking about the amount of
(43:52):
people who talk about being ripped and cut and then
having the uh what is it the husband stitch, which
y'all do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I
punch somebody without consent most of the time, by the way.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, yeah, Well, it's also just like it's a huge
medical procedure. Your body's direcked.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Leave me be why why But like the conversation about
the incontinence, like the amount of things like is there
are they just going like, Eh, that's just normal child birth, sorry,
instead of actually helping, like the mound of people who
break their butt bone yep. And don't get me wrong,
we understand it's stressful all these things, and if you
(44:42):
don't want to do all those other medical possibilities, that's fine.
But should we actually look to see if we could
ease the procedure at all? No? Nah, this is Eve's
send to us. That's what she handed down the central crisis.
But going on back to the Times article, doctor avar
(45:04):
Ram who wrote a book Hormone Intelligence, and she writes
common and normal are different. Just because so many women
experience something doesn't mean it's inherent to our biology. Being
a woman is not a diagnosis. Amen. Women's health issues
are often treated as inherent part of being female, rather
than conditions warranting serious attention, research and systemic overhaul. Like
(45:29):
that's I think that's you know again the bigger conversation
when it comes to women's health at all, point blank.
And also why it's important that we have actual research
with all types inclusion.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
What a novel idea?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Again, the writers for time, they do acknowledge normalizing is good,
is a good step in finding a solution or treatment,
but this should only be a beginning step, so they
continue normalization serves as an important purpose to destigmatize and educate,
to extract truth from the shadows and cast it in
the light. In the US, the postpartum struggles needed an
(46:21):
era of normalization. But we should view this as a
stepping stone rather than a destination. Again, I think that
makes perfect sense, Like, yes, we need to be able
to talk about this, women need to talk about this now.
We need to see this as a collective problem, not
just a conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, I had a stepping stone. Al and Freihart have
some suggestions, they write quote to meaningfully fix the current
state of postpartum care. Multiple systems need to be redesigned,
from government policies to standard medical protocols. For most of us,
though the thought of overhauling these systems can figure impossible
and disempowering, but there is something We do have power
(47:04):
over our narratives. It is essential that we shift from
a narrative that over normalizes the postpartum struggle to one
of preventative care, one that refuses to accept it as normal.
We need to leave behind the notion of that's just
how things are and replace it with it shouldn't have
to be this way.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
And actually they do get some good examples, and I
did note earlier because I've seen more tiktoks in which
South Korea has one, which I think they write eight
out of ten mothers will stay at care centers after
giving birth, and they have everything fresh mills, childcare, classes, pilates,
massage facials, all those things. They even provide in home
(47:43):
cleaning and laundry services. Makes sense. Of course, again they're
not doing it right either, necessarily about women in general,
because the birth rate is really far down. But that
type of postpartum care is amazing. New Zealand they write
after giving birth moms can stay at a local birthing
(48:04):
center free of charge, where they will receive one on
one care for them and their babies. Which these sound amazing.
This should be a thing, yeah, instead of funding wars.
But anyway, and apparently pediatricians have stepped up to fill
that space in helping to treat the parents. So this
is from that Guardian article written by Doherty. She writes,
(48:27):
if women aren't seeing their healthcare providers about emotional complications
during the perinatal period, they do typically take their babies
to the pediatricians, and these visits provide a critical opportunity
to expand care from the baby to the parents and
offer mental health screening to parents regardless of gender. Some
pediatricians have therefore become substitutes for family health care on
(48:48):
the frontline and detecting postpartum depression. Logan's Children's practice in Callyspill, Montana,
sorry began to incorporate postpartum depression and screening during well
infant checkups in twenty twenty, and in twenty nineteen, the
AAP reported that roughly half of its providers offered maternal
depressions screening. Again, COVID HIT change a lot of things
(49:11):
and it prompted the AAP to recommend that pediatricians conduct
validated screening at each other well infant visits at one, two, four,
and six months to help improve diagnosis and referrals for treatment.
So they increased it. I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
And it seems to have been effective. She continues quote.
Doctor John Cole, pediatrician at Logan Children's, has noticed many
positive results for postpartum depression since it instituted the screening
tool four years ago. The reaction from parents has been
fairly favorable. He noted, I think the parents feel comfortable
talking with us. He said, we just have a lot
(49:46):
more touch points with mothers and fathers than they would
otherwise have with their ob providers. Since the pandemic, his
office has seen an uptick in cases, but what surprised
him is the number of women in families who were
already seeking treatment and support for it. It's promising that
many of these women have already spoken with their midwife
(50:07):
or OBI about this and are on treatments. He said.
The practice provides additional screening and recommendations for follow up treatment,
and he says both men and women, especially new parents,
should have a primary doctor to ensure that they are
receiving regular healthcare checkups.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, and that's amazing. And I think that's again where
we note and have that conversation about the all oftentimes
that pregnant people are recognizing they need help, they're just
not getting it. They're just not able to find it,
they're not able to access it. There's also a bigger
conversation about how the marginalized communities are offered even less
services and offered even less help. Again, when we talked
(50:45):
about the fact that a lot of the parents having
a stay at home job, we have many people who
we couldn't have stay at home jobs. They were essential workers,
which felt very interesting in that conversation in itself. And
so we're not even able to stay at home. So
there's so many things to that level that we are
we have not gotten into and I haven't seen the research.
(51:06):
Maybe I need to be more specific with that research,
because it is that conversation to about the lack of
opportunities for certain groups of people when it comes to
access in general, and we've talked about it millions of
times and everything, but pregnancy and children are a big,
huge red flag when it comes to the divisiveness and
who gets what types of treatment in this area. I
(51:29):
will say also in twenty twenty three, the FDA did
approve the first oral treatment for postpartum depression, and this
is from the FDA dot gov. The US Food and
Drug Administration approved zarzuv or zorod alone, which is the
first oral medication indicated to treat postpartum depression and adults.
(51:50):
They talk about some of the risks, but in general
they see this as being effective. They go on to
say that this treatment in adults was demonstrated in two
randomized double debt blah blah blah blahs. EVO controlled many studies,
in many studies, y'all, and the trial participants were women
with PPD who met all the rec requirements and patients
(52:12):
received all these things and it did well for a
majority of the patients. Again, this is also one of
those things where different people have different needs. Certain people
have allergies and such, so there was side effects that
you have to look out for. But again twenty twenty three,
that is a big step that they actually found a
treatment or looked for a treatment in itself. Now we'll
(52:34):
say in twenty nineteen, the first actual medication which is
brixent alone was approved, and this is an injection for IVS,
so obviously I think it's probably pretty soon after childbirth
the way that it's administered, I'm assuming. But those are
two great things. Again, it was twenty nineteen when that
(52:55):
first one was approved, so wow, and again twenty twenty
four when the oral pill was created, so great. But wow.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah, I mean that's long been an issue where not
only do we not not run have scientific stadies on women,
pregnancy is a big one, and I'm going to assume
even post pregnancy there's just not been a lot at.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
All well as we've seen in this administration after birthday
don't care. Yes, again, these are good steps. This medications
are good steps, but we have to talk about the
fact that this is just a part of the treatment
that is needed and not necessarily the whole treatment. And
this level of conversation about preventative treatments is big again
(53:51):
about it being inclusive of the entire family. I think
that's also something that we don't talk enough about. But
the pandemic and obviously all of that affected what we
have seen and how how treatments have been given. We're
back here now and obviously have been a little more
relaxed since then. We shouldn't be Honestly, I don't know
(54:13):
if we need to be completely shut down, but we
should be cautious in masking and doing all those things.
But you know, that's a whole different episode. There's the
depth of conversation that needs to be had now that
we've normalized that. We need to stop making it seem
that this is okay and that's all that is needed
is just a conversation. We need to open it up
to treatments and counseling and education, like they need to
(54:34):
direct that money that they're sending to that dough just
been saving by cutting these programs specifically, I guess, but
there you go. I know that's that's again. This is
very like brief like conversation, an hour less than an
hour conversation in this topic. And there's so much more
that need to be said. Obviously, we are not professionals.
(54:56):
We did not do this depth of research and surveys
and questions, but we think it's important that we have
these conversations, even if we're not the ones that are
getting pregnant. This affects all of us, This affects all
the people in our community and we need to be
talking about why research like this is so important.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Absolutely, and as always, listeners, if you have any thoughts
about this, please let us know. You can email us
at Hello at Stephannever Told You dot com. You can
find us on blue Sky Moster podcasts, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff Never Told You for us on YouTube.
We have a tea public store and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Gris, Senior Executiveroducer Maya
(55:36):
and your contruder Joey. Thank you. Thanks to you for
listening Stuff Never Told You Structure by Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or where really listen
to your favorite shows
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.