May 22, 2026 • 49 mins
Yves puts the pieces of pioneering architect Minnette De Silva's story.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you a production
of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Once again we are here for an addition of Female First,
which means we are once again joined by the excellent
the Ernest Eves. Welcome Eaves. Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We were discussing off mic that even though we do
these once a month, it feels like it's been a
long time since.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We've talked to you. Yeah, what have you gotten up
to since? In this one month?
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Eve has been.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Kind of boring.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I haven't been even doing my normal routine things, but
I've just because I've been going back and forth between
writing and reading and writing and reading and then every
odd time like watching a film or I want one, like.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
To the theater the other day. But yeah, like I
have not been getting up to lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I mean, if, like, if writing is interesting to you,
then there's that.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
But that's it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Sometimes you need those times, I think.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's honestly been It's been a welcome situation.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's not for lack.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Of like having things I want to do, because there
are things that I haven't done here that I'm like, like,
I'm like, I really want to hike, and I've been
like forcing myself to stay inside because I have a
tendency to be like to reach out to people. I'm
a reacher outer, like I will reach out and be
(01:46):
like do you want to do this thing? Or like
I've found out about this thing, do you want to
do it with me? And the other day I was
talking to my husband, I was like, yeah, I'm staying
in sick's all I'm doing YadA, YadA YadA. And then
I was like, you know, if this person invited me out,
then I would go somewhere with.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Them and lo and behold.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It was because I spoke that person up, they reached
out to me that night and were like, do you
want to go to this thing with me this week?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I was like shit, shit. I was like, this was
my doing.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Like if I hadn't said that, wow, they wouldn't have
reached out to me, because in my mind, I was like,
it's not until the end of May that I will
be doing anything, So I'm not going to reach out
to anybody until June one or after.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So yeah, my lack of updates.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
About things I've been doing since I last spoke with
y'all is is a positive thing because it means that
I've been disciplined and the boundaries that I've created about
around my creativity and work.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
It takes a lot to actually be committed to that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, it does, especially when like I wake up every
morning and then I go open my curtains and I
see this like huge mountain and I'm like, I want
to go climb that.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Outside the window, Like yeah, hike would be great.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And it's not like I can't have those things. It's
just like, you know, there's a little bit of for me.
I mean, this is a whole other story, y'all. I
won't even get this is a different topic. But like
I do partake in austerities purposefully, like often, like there
are things I commit myself to and it might be
a little overboard, but it works for me and how
(03:32):
my brain works and how I like to like boundary
set and create rigidity because I need rigidity in a
lot of ways. Because there's a lot of y'all. I mean,
y'all know we've we talked a month after month. There's
a lot of things that are also very spontaneous and
like just weird and frolicky in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So yeah, it can be.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Hard but I find that it always pays off.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yes, yes, And I've always appreciated that about you, Eaves.
I feel like you're somebody who sets goals and then
accomplishes them.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Thank you. I was.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I'm fanning myself now everyone because I was writing about
this in my journal. I have some thoughts about this
about myself, so I'll save that for my diary.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
But yeah, I will say it's a trait for me.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I think sometimes for better or for worse sometimes, but yeah,
it's definitely a lifelong part of my character.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I also I am very like I have a strict schedule,
and there are pluses and minuses to it, because on
the one hand, I'm usually never the person who's like, Okay,
we I didn't make the deadline. But on the other hand,
sometimes it would be better for whatever I'm working on
(05:03):
if I was just trying to get it done, yeah,
to meet the deadline. So yeah, I totally get that
that makes sense. I wanted to ask, this is a
silly question, and then the answer might be nothing, okay,
but what is it? I was thinking about the person
(05:23):
we're talking about today, and I was trying to connect
to my own kind of experiences, and I was thinking
about those projects in like middle school and high school
where you had to build like a bridge with only
toothpicks and glue, or you had to make it a
cage for eggs only out of straws and then drop
(05:46):
it off a roof and.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
See if the egg made it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Did either of you have something like that and how
did it go for you?
Speaker 5 (05:55):
So I do remember doing this our industrial arts teacher,
which is what it was called when I was taking it,
he had us do the bridge with the It wasn't
tooth picks. It was definitely those what are those sticks? Anyway,
it was specific to architectural like designs like we had those.
(06:16):
My bridge did not last I did. It did not
do well. It didn't hold a lot of weight. However,
we also had to do an paper plane thing to
see who's plane.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I wanted mine in a ball and it fell it
wait very very far. I won that.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
You know, I was not good at anything else, but
I'm very creative in that way.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You wanted it in a ball, and that's why I
went farther because yeah, mass and all those things. Yeah,
I feel like this is one of those. Yeah, this
is one of those. Do you know those like challenges
that people will put on social media that they'll go
to some sort of public place and they'll have some
like you gotta grab this from the box or like
pick up this weight, and it'll be like some some
(06:58):
trick to it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Essentially like this reminds me of that.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Oh yeah, he appreciated my creativity, like he didn't disqualify me,
So I'll say.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That, Uh that's fun.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, I I don't remember doing I remember them being
class projects, but I don't remember how I performed in
any of them. Like I don't remember ever building the bridge.
I remember those toothpicks being around.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Samantha. You sound like you went to a rich place
because y'all had the real architecte. I feel like we
had those.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Not only were they toothpicks, they were like the colored ones,
which is like they would add the color and it
would be like wearing off of the toothpicks.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Wed there was only one high school in our whole area,
in our whole county.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I like it.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Well, they also only put money in like sports, and
the only sports we had were basketball and football and uh.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Baseball, So they really they just didn't like we had
like three.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Ap classes, so they just dispersed money in odd places.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
And apparently one of the most industrial.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Arts that was gonna say was that which if if
if that's the case, was that y'all school thing like
industrial arts?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
No, it was our school thing. Was the f f A.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Actually that's what I just remembered, Like they put a
lot more money in the f f A and ah,
you know for equal rights and all.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, tender right, sure, ye justified somehow.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Any did you have to do this?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, I'm shocked Eaves that you either did well enough
that this left no impact on you and you don't remember,
because I feel like they either go really well or
really really poorly. And that's been my experience, and they
cause you a lot of pain. With the toothpick bridge,
(09:02):
I would destroyed myself if I could at the end,
I could care less about the grade, I would have
destroyed it myself. The egg saying that costs like a
town uproar because all everybody was going to McDonald's and
stealing all their straws, I guess, so they would have
no straws left. I still think I was robbed of
(09:25):
a win for that one. But they were stressful experiences
is my main takeaway. Uh that bridge, man, I know,
so no, no, no, that made me remember. I don't
know why this triggered my memory in this way. This
might be a met life crisis thing because this happened
(09:45):
to me the other day when I remember something randomly
from my childhood that I did in school that I
totally forgot about. But we did do those rue Goldberg machines.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I remember doing that once in a class, and I
don't remember how it went or if it was like
an entire class team building thing or if it was
because I feel like this is probably my gift to
day class, so it could have been because it was
like a smaller group, or if like it was like.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
A singular person doing a thing.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
But I do remember that being a thing, So that's
also similar in the way it's like building a thing
with being resourceful using materials, simple materials.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
We didn't have that. I just remember doing a task
about roller coasters, but I think that was for physics.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
We did that to potential kinetic energy.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And then we went to six Flags as a field trip.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah we did.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
That's the only reasons.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
It's such a Georgia. It's such a Georgia thing to put. Yeah,
put that in quotes.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Because we know why. We were like, again, what did
we really do? We had a paper and be like
do this math. We're like, okay, the ones market. I
was also also triggered a memory that in industrial arts
I was partnered with someone who I knew was really
good at things like that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Uh huh, So I used that to my advantage. I
was so odd kid.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Apparently, no, that's how teams work, Samantha skills.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I relied on my personality a lot in high school.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I think and about that that is a great skill
to have in the contemporary day.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
So yeah, oh man, memories any to be pulled up
something for both of us.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Apparently this is fantastic because I was trying to specifically
focus on like because we could go on and on
about or at least I could about projects at school
when you had to build something. But I was trying
to think about more architecturally relevant projects. But I do
love yeah, that this has opened up some some thoughts,
(12:03):
some memories.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Idea build a house. Oh yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
In my Gift to Day class, we we that was
one of our projects was to build a house. Like
we had they took us somewhere and they showed us
how to put the wall up and how to put
the roof up. It wasn't it was a small house
like a shd Like they were showing us how to
do the small like tasks that were required of the thing.
But that's totally relevant, isn't it like.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Skills?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, it's a good skill. And so I vividly remember
that day and going to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
It was fun like to do something hands on like
that too, to like actually get out there.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And as a team do that.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That is fascinating. We never did anything like that, but
that sounds really cool. Well, that does transition into the
person we're talking about today, who Architecture is not even
(13:06):
like the main thing, I would say, but a big
part of what we're going to talk about. Who are
we discussing today, Eves.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Today we're talking about Minette da Silva, who was the
first Asian woman to be an associate of the Royal
Institute of British Architects and generally she's just been kind
of called Sri Lanka's first woman architect, like right after
British rule ended, she was one of it was already
not that many architects there, and she was one of
(13:36):
the first to be practicing right after the end of
British rule in what was then called Ceylon which is
now Sri Lanka.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes, and she she really did quite a bit. And
I found I liked, I found some differing accounts on
like her personality that I found really interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Okay, yeah, we'll be able to I feel like, yes,
about women that happened often seemed to have been applied
to the way people treated her and spoke with her
and spoke about her. And I do think it's interesting. Yes, yeah,
So shall we get into it, Yes, let's do that.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Manette de Silva was born in nineteen eighteen in Candy, which,
like I said, was then called Ceylon at the time
it was colonized by the British. And Manette was the
fourth of five children. Her father was George da Silva,
who was a Senileese journalist and lawyer. And I mean
he was he was up through politics like he was,
(14:43):
had these connections and you know, he he worked his
way up to become a member of the Legislative Council
and things like that. And her mother was Anya's Da
Silva and she designed the family home that they call
Saint George's.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And you know when a home has a name, it's fancy.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Saint George's was the name of that home, and that
was on the outskirts of Candy. Now they seemed too
they were doing fine. And the mother was a so
called Burger and so she had this like Eurasian descent.
So that's that's her ethnic background. That's Menest' ethnic background.
(15:27):
But it didn't seem like it was like it wasn't
like total silver spoon in the mouth situation.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
It was like.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
They were doing fine, and she had a lot of
opportunities based on who she was around. And there were
a lot of people coming through the house, like there
was talk about Gandhi and later she was friends with
Darra Gandhi and the Nahrws and all these things.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So there were names around for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
They were connected to all these big shots, and that
included the politician side, but also some of that artist's
side too. And when her parents went to London to
have meetings with politicians, they brought Manette with them and
they put her in the boarding school there and she
went to school in Brighton from nineteen twenty nine to
(16:16):
nineteen thirty one and fast forward. By nineteen thirty nine
she had told her family that she wanted.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
To be an architect.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
There are a lot of things she could have been
inspired by. Obviously, she was already seeing a lot of
the world and was around these like you know, big
shot artists. But she might have also been inspired by
her sister in law Esme, who studied at the Slade
in London, which is this art school and visited the
Boo House. And her sister in law, es Man, also
(16:47):
designed her own house in the late nineteen thirties. Yeah,
so her inspiration could have come from a lot of places,
but it it seemed like her parents weren't really into it.
But they still actually support her and told her she
could go pursue her dreams. And so they let her
(17:08):
work with an architect in Colombo, which is in what
was it in Ceylon, then to enroll in a private
school of architecture in what was then Bombay now Mumbai.
So she was at that private school and then she
went to a government school and she was expelled from
that school apparently for being involved in the Quit India movement,
(17:31):
which was against the British Raj so she ended up
being a student there in Bombay from nineteen forty to
nineteen forty three. Then she went to Mysore. After that
she worked under Otto Koenigsberger, who was a refugee from
Nazi Germany, and under him she worked on the planning
of Tatanagar, which is a city in eastern India. And
(17:57):
she and her older sister Anil ended up being founding
members of the Modern Architecture Research Group or MARK for short,
and they were instrumental in establishing this journal for the
organization that was about modern architecture. And we'll talk in
a minute about like she wrote stuff for the journal,
(18:22):
but it continued on after she wasn't, you know, involved
in anymore. But she left India and she went to
London in nineteen forty five to study at the Architectural Association.
She had an apartment when she was there in Seville Row.
And there has been mentioned, I mean, I mean the
(18:42):
whole exotaization, that's a difficult word, exotaization, that thing, exota
sizing of her. She's like this thing, that thing, yeah,
y'all know what I'm talking about, orientalizing, fetishizing, kind of
(19:04):
just putting her on a pedestal for you know, her
being different kind of being, this this Eastern princess essentially
seemed to kind of come into play here because she
would do things like wear flowers in her hair and sorryes.
And so I've seen some quotes from some articles that
we're talking about that kind of juxtaposition of cultural identifications happening,
(19:28):
this like post war idea of the color being sucked
out of everything, and you know her being the one
to bring this colorful easternness. I mean, and if I
mean colorful, the idea of colorfulness is always like a signifier,
a signpost for the other ring of people.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And the things that they do.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
So yeah, I was, I was having a lot of
those visions when I was going back through her her legacy.
But I mean she did she You know, if you
go look at you can see photos of her and
you'll see her wearing her sorry isn't working. But yeah,
So she had her apartment there, and in nineteen forty
(20:12):
six she visited Paris and she met the architectural designer
Le Cobrusier Le Corbusier.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm having difficulty with See.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
My name is French, but I am not, so I
always have to qualify that I'm just pretend French because
my name isn't even pronounced correctly. But yes, So she
finished her studies. Well, I will say about him though
she had she had this correspondence with him over time,
(20:44):
and there was speculation about their relationship being something more
than platonic, but he never admitted to that. She never
really talked about that, but they did continue their like
friendship over time and their correspondence with each other. And
it's just kind of like an indicative of the connections
that she had with these big names and who she
(21:05):
was in rooms with and who she was like, you know,
able to cut network so cause she has been said
to be like a great networker and that was really
helpful for her in her career. But she finished her
studies at the Architectural Association in nineteen forty eight, and
(21:26):
it was at this point that she became the first
Asian woman to be an associate in the Royal Institute
of British Architects. So Manette she really wanted to stay
in London, but her parents were.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Like, no, come back home.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
She came back to Candy and she continued her practice
there from the family home and from nineteen forty eight
to nineteen fifty one she was working on her first
commission project, which was the Kurunaratana House in Candy and you.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Can see the for this house.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
There were also there are also pictures of the house
that you can see, and it was meant to be
designed for this like modern Buddhist Sinhalese family, so to
make room for their Buddhist traditions that they had, but
also like it was meant to be lived in like
in the modern times. So that house has since been destroyed,
(22:25):
but it was like this early example for her outlook
on architecture, so that there could be this like synergy
between the modern design and the traditional concepts and practices
in the context of.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
The environment that they were in.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And in nineteen fifty three she wrote this article in
Mark talking about the house as so called modern regional
architecture in the tropics, and that's where this idea. If
you look up Manette Silva, you'll see her highly associated
with this idea of modern regionalism and it was an.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Idea that was ahead of its time and.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Speaking of and is a tale as old as time
of the woman having ideas and oftentimes it wasn't even
like this where it was documented, where it was cemented
in this magazine. It was just kind of like she
said it or she you know it was. People knew
who this idea came from, this concept came from, but
(23:30):
we don't have proof of it. In this case, we
can see Manette da Silva talking about her ideas about
modern regionalism, and later on there were other men who
were in architectural profession who kind of expounded on this
same idea, but she was already talking about it a
(23:52):
decade plus before. This idea later became known as critical regionalism,
but it was based around her concept and just intimation
around how in her design she would use this mix
of modern construction materials and local materials, so you know,
(24:13):
there would be cement, but there will also be would
and she would incorporate like local artisans working, and then
she would have artists from the area. There were murals,
and then there was bamboo incorporated in the design. So
it was a mixture of these materials, but also there
was thoughtful design around you know, how a home was
(24:37):
built to allow drafts to enter, to allow cooling to
happen in the house, and there was in some of
her projects, talks about what kind of material the roof could.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Be made out of or should be made out of.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So it was a lot of interesting mixes between the
traditional and the modern, and that was a big part
of what she was is about. So the first house
that she designed in Colombo for the pieris family that
had an open courtyard and that was influenced by earlier
(25:14):
Sri Lankan architecture and that showed up in her later.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Designs that she did too.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
In nineteen fifty seven, she also designed the Sanenayake Flats
in Colombo, which were ten apartments and each one had
its own garage.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
And that one, if you.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Look at the architecture, is like a lot of cement
like curves, and it was just about how to bring
this modern element into the way people were living in
Colombo at the time, and she thought about things like cost.
She kept things in mind like indigenous building techniques. And
(25:56):
her practice grew a lot during the nineteen fifties, so
a lot of it was private homes, but she also
traveled a lot and that had a negative effect on
how she was present for her clients. And so this
is where this is where we were getting to what
you were talking about Annie Yeah with how yeah, how
(26:20):
people spoke about her like they would say that she
was abrasive, that she was hard to work with. A
client would want something and she would be like no,
like I don't want that, so it's not going to happen,
Like she's been stubborn about certain things being done if
the request was something that she wasn't into, and that
(26:42):
she could be kind of unmoving on those things.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So there was that element of it.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
And then there was also people talking about how she
would be in Europe a lot. So while she was
practicing her practice was in Sri Lanka, she was off
in Europe. And there was one article that I read
by author Sheromi Pinto that I think provided other perspective
(27:08):
on that, which is just that Europe was kind of
a refuge for her when things got overwhelming. So I mean,
I'm just imagining her being in this male dominated space
that was architectural design in Sri Lanka and then having
all this community that she built up in England that
seemed to be a support network around her that wasn't
(27:30):
just about.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The share glitz and glam of it all.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It was like she had artists that she could talk
to and that she corresponded with lovingly that seemed to
provide like an emotional support system for her. On top
of you know, there were industry meetings that she was
going to there as well, of course, but you know,
it wasn't just about that, And so I think it's
(27:53):
it might be fair that a person's experience with her
is that they might not have thought that she was
as president as she should be, But it's also unfair
for the people who around her, who aren't even necessarily
her clients, talking about her just going off to Europe,
because it was something that was a support to her,
that was clearly meaningful and probably helpful to her. And
(28:15):
when we get into our legacy, I'll talk a little
bit more about that too, because I feel like that's
there's a broader conversation just about like how women are
spoken about and regarded because they're women in this kind
of industry. So we'll get back to that. But David Robson,
(28:36):
who was a profession of architecture, and he had met Manette,
and he lived in a house that she designed, and
in his lectures and in his writings, he's talked about
Jeffrey Bawa being kind of this like foil slash adversary
to her. So if you're like, if you're reading her,
(28:58):
if you're looking at her life as you know, as
this fictional story, it would kind of seem like that's
who Jeffrey Bawa is, Like this is an antagonist in
the story in a way. So that that's for a
couple of reasons. Like, for instance, one of the architects
that she hired, his name was Orric Pleasner.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
He worked with her.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
He wrote this, apparently I haven't read it, but this
weird book and she was mentioned in it, like he
detegrated her in this book, and it's some weird accusations
and rumor stuff happening in there. But apparently it's this
like fantastic autobiographical situation. So take that as for what
you will. But this guy, Orrick Plesner, left to work
(29:42):
with Bawa in Colombo and they became quite successful. So
even though he had spoke down on her, Pleasner and
his book he wrote, it was clear that he had
learned a lot from Manette, and so also Pleasanner and
Bawa were undoubtedly influenced by her designs based on the
work they were doing, and her writings about this modern regionalism,
(30:04):
and they were clearly influenced by that and Robson that
professor I mentioned. He also points out how during one
period she kind of watered down her work and drew
influence from Bawa before returning back to her confidence style.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
But like Bawa also.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Drew influence from her, So there was this like, I
don't know if I would call it a full on
like friction, but there was some back and forth, like
some ping pong action happening there. So in the nineteen fifties,
(30:48):
Salon was also this hot spot for filmmakers, and she
connected with people like Laurence Olivier, his wife, Vivian Lee,
and David Lean and all these people. So she's continued
to bump shoulders and elbows with these names, and she's
also continuing to speak out about her theories. In nineteen
(31:09):
sixty five or nineteen sixty six, she expounded on them
in her writing again in another essay call Experiments in
Modern Regional Architecture. But around that time, so the mid sixties,
she was already facing illness and depression because her mother
had died in nineteen sixty two, so her career took
(31:34):
a downturn in the nineteen sixties. Clients let her go
and new clients didn't commission her, and by the end
of the sixties her projects had really really seriously slowed down.
This could also be connected to the fact that it
was private homes for the easiest commissions for her to get.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
She did.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
She got a lot more private homes to and then
to be built. Then she did some of the commercial
projects that she could have worked on.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
In nineteen seventy three, she after a series of events
and connections.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
She ended up moving to London.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
She got a job as a lecturer at the University
of Hong Kong. She went there lectured for a time,
and then nineteen eighty she ended up going back to Candy,
and she wanted to go back to her architectural practice
because in that period, you know, between her lecturing and
(32:40):
her career taking a downturn in Sri Lanka, she wasn't
really like her practice wasn't as robust.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So when she went back.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
To Candy in nineteen eighty, she got back into her practice.
She wasn't working at the pace she used to, but
she did design three more buildings, and I just want
to It's a very specific point, but it's just something
I noticed when I'm going through these biographies about people,
(33:13):
and it's even more apparent when I'm reading these biographies
about women. But just there's this positioning of things that
are happening later in life, like but she couldn't do
as many more in the end. It's kind of like
a unfortunately she wasn't working as much anymore in the end.
(33:34):
And I just want to say to everybody who's reading
these biographies and they get to a point in somebody's
history and they see something like, oh, by the end
of her life, or like, you know, once she got older,
like you know, she couldn't operate at the pace, she
couldn't produce at the pay she did anymore. And I
just I want to highlight that because I want people
(33:57):
to think about that when they're reading it and see
how that like placed from a standpoint of thinking that
people's value is lessened when there when their rate of
production is lessened, also kind of makes it seem like
that wasn't their choice to decrease their productivity later in life.
It could just be like I didn't want to do
(34:20):
that much anymore. It's not because I've failed to do
that much anymore, or I failed to do this many things.
It's nothing wrong with not being prolific. If you know,
if you're doing what you want to do, then that's fine.
So that's just some like kind of a semantic like
a language thing that I think can be important to
point out for people. Since we're talking about all these
(34:42):
women's biographies, it's probably something that people run into when
they're going back into these histories. But she did design
three more buildings, and her last building was the Sarah
Wartna House, and the man who owned the house was
part of the Peer family, which I talked about earlier,
because they had commissioned her work for houses before, and
(35:06):
she designed that home, but another architect built it. And
at this point in her life she's in the Saint
George's Home and it was in disrepair though, so oh
that was still a house with a name. She wasn't
able to take care of it as well. Because throughout
(35:27):
this time, it's not like she's rolling in the dough.
She is, you know, she doesn't have that much money
at this point, but she is thinking about her legacy
and her family is also thinking about her legacy, and
she does have some support and like the pursuit of
documenting that legacy. In nineteen ninety three, her sister and
(35:48):
Neil got three postcrad architecture students to take pictures of
Manette's buildings for her autobiography, but Manette in the end
she got them to hand over the film and before
they left it disappeared. It was gone, never to be
seen again, so no record of that. But in nineteen
(36:13):
ninety six, the Sri Lanka Institute of Architects awarded her
as Gold Medal finally because they had already given it
to Babwa more than a decade prior.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And she died in.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
November of nineteen ninety eight. She was eighty years old.
She died in Candy and man I really don't just
when you see her story, you'll see how kind of
sad it feels at the end of her life because
of how it's spoken about, how she felt kind of forgotten,
like or just not that well attended to at that point.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And there was a quote from Manette.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Where she talks about how she wants people to like
visit her while she's alive rather than like coming to
her funeral, but she was in the hospital leading up
to her death, and at that time apparently people had
like taken things from her home and from her studios,
so some family members getting some things, but also apparently
neighbors getting things, so art works by you know, famous people,
(37:14):
and drawings and letters and furniture and even like structural
parts of the building like doors and things like that
were taken. But the project that she had been working
on leading up to the end of her life, that
the Postgrast students had came to help her work on,
she did write stuff for it, and she did choose
(37:35):
images for it, and that turned into this scrapbook style
work that is called The Life and Work of an
Asian Woman Architect. But that was published right after she died,
so she wasn't able to publish it before she died,
and unfortunately it wasn't really edited much so, and it
was also volume one with an intended volume two, and
(37:58):
the volume two is nowhere to be seen. So yeah,
there's a lot to be desired, as you could imagine.
And you know, it's sad because over the course of
her life she created many, many designs, and out of
those designs, it was only so many, so not every
design actually comes to fruition in terms of turning into
an actual building. But she built over a dozen homes,
(38:22):
apartment built, she built a couple apartment buildings, housing development,
and some public buildings. And today, even though she had
all those designs, that's one huge chunk. And then that
gets narrower in terms of what was actually built. That
gets even narrower in terms of what's still standing today.
And even if like in some cases there was what
(38:44):
was still standing and what was destroyed, it was only
pieces of it that was still standing Saint George's as well,
that home was also destroyed, land was sold. But there
are efforts today to continue to document and research her life,
legacy and preserve her works.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
So that is.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
That is Bennette de Silva's life, And I guess now
would be a good time to bring up the whole
kind of like commentary about the commentary about her abrasiveness.
Of course, if a woman is taking an authoritative position,
if she is the head of something, if she's hiring people,
(39:29):
if she's in a male dominated feeling, she's early on
in it. Like this is post war and post British
raj like it's just so much that's happening, and then
conceptions of like what women should be doing, can be
doing and are doing, and all those colliding at once,
and with the background of these huge societal pressure points,
(39:57):
it makes sense that people will be like abrasive. But
Manette herself did also talk about how she remembers specific
instances of like she was like, yeah, I can't remember
what the what the actual job was, but she says
something like, yeah, they wanted this kind of roof and
I didn't want this roof, and like, I remember I
(40:20):
said that, and like I really probably shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I was probably being a little more harsh than I
should have been.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
I think it was Robson who was talking and electro
I was watching and talking about how she was like
like somebody came up to her and one of her
clients asked her, Yeah, this thing is like there are
holes in this so there's water coming into the house,
and so what do I do about it?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
You need to change this, and she was like, well.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Get them up, And you know, that's kind of how
she could be with some people. So there's also an
argument to be made about like her that kind of
authoritativeness is a necessity when you're a woman in general,
especially when you're a woman in a male dominated field
(41:07):
and building this like new lane for yourself to not
equivocate and to be certain about the things you're doing,
to make sure that people take you seriously, to make
sure that people know you know what you're talking about.
It's a protective measure. And I don't you know, I'm
(41:29):
always going to be weary when I see that, even
if there is truth to that being just somebody's personality,
because that could be anybody's personality, no matter what year
it is and no matter what gender you are. So yeah,
but I'm sure y'all have come across a lot of
commentary like that and everything that you research to Oh. Yes,
(41:50):
I mean, when I was just glancing over who we
were talking about today, there are certain words when I
see them used to describe women immediately like I don't
know about that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And she had a lot of accounts of her being
abrasive or like not friendly enough, things like that, And
I mean, this is a huge conversation, but two of
the main points that stood out to me with this
is one one of my most hated tropes, but the
(42:26):
myth of the male genius, who we allow to be
a complete pole, but we praise him because.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
He's a genius.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Well he can, he's right, whatever it is, and usually
white male genius. And when women try to do that,
they are punished, they are unfriendly, they are abrasive.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
It's the same.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
But also on top of that, women get advice that
is so contradictory of you should be more friendly, you
should do like X, Y Z when you go to negotiate,
here's what you do, and it's usually to act more
like men. But when women do it, like the traditional
(43:12):
male yeah, like yeah, when women do it, it is, Oh,
she's abrasive. I don't don't work with her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
It's just frustrating.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
It's one of those things that yes, I immediately was like,
I bet he's just gonna tell us about this situation.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And with Bawa, it was that was kind of like
a thing.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
No nobody complained if people would have any sort of
experience with him where they felt like he was being
a little too direct or a little too harsh in
his language. And that's just kind of accepted as as
what he does. But I think that also kind of
just you know, highlights a little bit of that that swing,
that ping pong situation that happening because he was kind
(43:58):
of on the up and up as she was as
her career was slowing down, and so he was just
a little bit younger than her, but he was more
like a decade behind in his actual schooling. Oh that
made me remember something, But I'll put a pin in
that because it had to do with time. But the
other point I want to make about that is that
(44:19):
I think there's also an ethnic and cultural layer added
to this, because I think there could have been some
expectation of like for her to be that is even
more enhanced for her to be like ingratiating or subservient
because of how they perceived her. Outsiders perceived her because
of her dress and her ethnicity. So I think, you
(44:43):
know that that can be an added layer to how
how you meet someone's expectations when you show up and
you say no, I'm not doing this, and they're like,
but you should say yes to everything I say, or
but you shouldn't speak to me like that, like tell
me a little softer.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
So yeah, I do think that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
But the other thing I wanted to say is that
she's started, you know, her career kind of started after
her thirties and you know a little bit later. And
so often we'll see this.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Atwo eye.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
I'll speak for myself. I know we've talked about it before,
but just like you're like, dang, you did so much
and you're only twenty two, like you did all of
this and your legacy so long, and you know, and
that can often be the case in these female first
episodes that we do. But I just appreciate it seeing like,
you know, she got support from her parents. She was
(45:40):
able to make use of her connections even though she
didn't have all the advantages in the world. So another
thing about this Bahwa guy was that he had an
advantage of where he could kind of pay to play
a little bit. Like he he got immediately into a
firm in Colombo, and her she didn't really have that,
Like she you know, worked with these local artists and
(46:01):
she wasn't able to immediately kind of skip.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Some skip these steps. And so he had access in.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
A kind of more in a larger way right from
the jump that he had an advantage. So she was
really working against a lot, like you know, she was
really like the context of the time, her gender, you know,
the schooling, all of these things.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yeah, I once again I think this would be a
fantastic HBO mini series. Oh yeah, because you've got so
many like the cast of characters she was interacting with,
You've got a rival, like, you've got a potential maybe
maybe not love interest.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I mean no, seriously, I could see it as a
limited series at dramatization of her life. As a limited series.
She's she's I mean, come on, strong female lead. Come on,
I'm waiting for Manila folder to be slammed on somebody's table,
like please, maybe we need we need to take action. Yeah,
(47:14):
there's a real situation room picture if you go look
up of like her in the middle of a bunch
of dudes like chatting it up, talking about a thing,
handling business. It's good, it's good. And I mean the
sets would be great, yes, because of the homes that
she built were so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yes, And like you said, you can find pictures of
her and some of the stuff she's done, so you
can start visualizing this mini series for your self. Listeners,
you would like yes, yes, Well, thank you so much
as always Eves for bringing this story to us.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Y'all just go directly to my website, which is Eves
jeffcot dot com. I will spell it y V E
S J E F F C A T dot com
And from there you can get to all the other things,
sign up for my email list, you can get to
my YouTube channel. You can also find my Instagram on there.
But if you want to go directly to that, I
am at not apologizing, and you can connect with me
(48:21):
there and tell me how you felt about Minetta Silva story, Like,
tell me something if you're going to connect with me
over there, about any other other women that we've talked
about on Female First here on Sminty where we talk
about women who had pioneering accomplishments in history. Yes, if
you haven't done any of that, listeners, go ahead and
(48:43):
do it.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
I will.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I have to tell you Eves is a wonderful conversation partner.
I'm assuming digitally as well. But yes, I think it
would be an excellent conversation if you reached out with
your thoughts about any of the Female First So go
do that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I recommend it.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
If you would like to contact us, you can our
email us Hello at Stuffmenever Told You dot Com. We're
also in Blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast and on
Instagram and TikTok and stuff We Never Told You.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
We're also on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
We have some merchandise ac cop Bureau, and we have
a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always to our super producer Casey and our
executive producer Maya. Thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff Whenever Told You instruction of my Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you a production
of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Once again we are here for an addition of Female First,
which means we are once again joined by the excellent
the Ernest Eves. Welcome Eaves. Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We were discussing off mic that even though we do
these once a month, it feels like it's been a
long time since.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We've talked to you. Yeah, what have you gotten up
to since? In this one month?
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Eve has been.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Kind of boring.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I haven't been even doing my normal routine things, but
I've just because I've been going back and forth between
writing and reading and writing and reading and then every
odd time like watching a film or I want one, like.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
To the theater the other day. But yeah, like I
have not been getting up to lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I mean, if, like, if writing is interesting to you,
then there's that.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
But that's it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Sometimes you need those times, I think.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's honestly been It's been a welcome situation.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
It's not for lack.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Of like having things I want to do, because there
are things that I haven't done here that I'm like, like,
I'm like, I really want to hike, and I've been
like forcing myself to stay inside because I have a
tendency to be like to reach out to people. I'm
a reacher outer, like I will reach out and be
(01:46):
like do you want to do this thing? Or like
I've found out about this thing, do you want to
do it with me? And the other day I was
talking to my husband, I was like, yeah, I'm staying
in sick's all I'm doing YadA, YadA YadA. And then
I was like, you know, if this person invited me out,
then I would go somewhere with.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Them and lo and behold.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It was because I spoke that person up, they reached
out to me that night and were like, do you
want to go to this thing with me this week?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I was like shit, shit. I was like, this was
my doing.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Like if I hadn't said that, wow, they wouldn't have
reached out to me, because in my mind, I was like,
it's not until the end of May that I will
be doing anything, So I'm not going to reach out
to anybody until June one or after.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So yeah, my lack of updates.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
About things I've been doing since I last spoke with
y'all is is a positive thing because it means that
I've been disciplined and the boundaries that I've created about
around my creativity and work.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
It takes a lot to actually be committed to that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, it does, especially when like I wake up every
morning and then I go open my curtains and I
see this like huge mountain and I'm like, I want
to go climb that.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Outside the window, Like yeah, hike would be great.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And it's not like I can't have those things. It's
just like, you know, there's a little bit of for me.
I mean, this is a whole other story, y'all. I
won't even get this is a different topic. But like
I do partake in austerities purposefully, like often, like there
are things I commit myself to and it might be
a little overboard, but it works for me and how
(03:32):
my brain works and how I like to like boundary
set and create rigidity because I need rigidity in a
lot of ways. Because there's a lot of y'all. I mean,
y'all know we've we talked a month after month. There's
a lot of things that are also very spontaneous and
like just weird and frolicky in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So yeah, it can be.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Hard but I find that it always pays off.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yes, yes, And I've always appreciated that about you, Eaves.
I feel like you're somebody who sets goals and then
accomplishes them.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Thank you. I was.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I'm fanning myself now everyone because I was writing about
this in my journal. I have some thoughts about this
about myself, so I'll save that for my diary.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
But yeah, I will say it's a trait for me.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I think sometimes for better or for worse sometimes, but yeah,
it's definitely a lifelong part of my character.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I also I am very like I have a strict schedule,
and there are pluses and minuses to it, because on
the one hand, I'm usually never the person who's like, Okay,
we I didn't make the deadline. But on the other hand,
sometimes it would be better for whatever I'm working on
(05:03):
if I was just trying to get it done, yeah,
to meet the deadline. So yeah, I totally get that
that makes sense. I wanted to ask, this is a
silly question, and then the answer might be nothing, okay,
but what is it? I was thinking about the person
(05:23):
we're talking about today, and I was trying to connect
to my own kind of experiences, and I was thinking
about those projects in like middle school and high school
where you had to build like a bridge with only
toothpicks and glue, or you had to make it a
cage for eggs only out of straws and then drop
(05:46):
it off a roof and.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
See if the egg made it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Did either of you have something like that and how
did it go for you?
Speaker 5 (05:55):
So I do remember doing this our industrial arts teacher,
which is what it was called when I was taking it,
he had us do the bridge with the It wasn't
tooth picks. It was definitely those what are those sticks? Anyway,
it was specific to architectural like designs like we had those.
(06:16):
My bridge did not last I did. It did not
do well. It didn't hold a lot of weight. However,
we also had to do an paper plane thing to
see who's plane.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I wanted mine in a ball and it fell it
wait very very far. I won that.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
You know, I was not good at anything else, but
I'm very creative in that way.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You wanted it in a ball, and that's why I
went farther because yeah, mass and all those things. Yeah,
I feel like this is one of those. Yeah, this
is one of those. Do you know those like challenges
that people will put on social media that they'll go
to some sort of public place and they'll have some
like you gotta grab this from the box or like
pick up this weight, and it'll be like some some
(06:58):
trick to it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Essentially like this reminds me of that.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Oh yeah, he appreciated my creativity, like he didn't disqualify me,
So I'll say.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That, Uh that's fun.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, I I don't remember doing I remember them being
class projects, but I don't remember how I performed in
any of them. Like I don't remember ever building the bridge.
I remember those toothpicks being around.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Samantha. You sound like you went to a rich place
because y'all had the real architecte. I feel like we
had those.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Not only were they toothpicks, they were like the colored ones,
which is like they would add the color and it
would be like wearing off of the toothpicks.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
Wed there was only one high school in our whole area,
in our whole county.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I like it.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Well, they also only put money in like sports, and
the only sports we had were basketball and football and uh.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Baseball, So they really they just didn't like we had
like three.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Ap classes, so they just dispersed money in odd places.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
And apparently one of the most industrial.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Arts that was gonna say was that which if if
if that's the case, was that y'all school thing like
industrial arts?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
No, it was our school thing. Was the f f A.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Actually that's what I just remembered, Like they put a
lot more money in the f f A and ah,
you know for equal rights and all.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, tender right, sure, ye justified somehow.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Any did you have to do this?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, I'm shocked Eaves that you either did well enough
that this left no impact on you and you don't remember,
because I feel like they either go really well or
really really poorly. And that's been my experience, and they
cause you a lot of pain. With the toothpick bridge,
(09:02):
I would destroyed myself if I could at the end,
I could care less about the grade, I would have
destroyed it myself. The egg saying that costs like a
town uproar because all everybody was going to McDonald's and
stealing all their straws, I guess, so they would have
no straws left. I still think I was robbed of
(09:25):
a win for that one. But they were stressful experiences
is my main takeaway. Uh that bridge, man, I know,
so no, no, no, that made me remember. I don't
know why this triggered my memory in this way. This
might be a met life crisis thing because this happened
(09:45):
to me the other day when I remember something randomly
from my childhood that I did in school that I
totally forgot about. But we did do those rue Goldberg machines.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I remember doing that once in a class, and I
don't remember how it went or if it was like
an entire class team building thing or if it was
because I feel like this is probably my gift to
day class, so it could have been because it was
like a smaller group, or if like it was like.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
A singular person doing a thing.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
But I do remember that being a thing, So that's
also similar in the way it's like building a thing
with being resourceful using materials, simple materials.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
We didn't have that. I just remember doing a task
about roller coasters, but I think that was for physics.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
We did that to potential kinetic energy.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And then we went to six Flags as a field trip.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah we did.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
That's the only reasons.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
It's such a Georgia. It's such a Georgia thing to put. Yeah,
put that in quotes.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Because we know why. We were like, again, what did
we really do? We had a paper and be like
do this math. We're like, okay, the ones market. I
was also also triggered a memory that in industrial arts
I was partnered with someone who I knew was really
good at things like that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Uh huh, So I used that to my advantage. I
was so odd kid.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Apparently, no, that's how teams work, Samantha skills.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I relied on my personality a lot in high school.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I think and about that that is a great skill
to have in the contemporary day.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
So yeah, oh man, memories any to be pulled up
something for both of us.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Apparently this is fantastic because I was trying to specifically
focus on like because we could go on and on
about or at least I could about projects at school
when you had to build something. But I was trying
to think about more architecturally relevant projects. But I do
love yeah, that this has opened up some some thoughts,
(12:03):
some memories.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Idea build a house. Oh yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
In my Gift to Day class, we we that was
one of our projects was to build a house. Like
we had they took us somewhere and they showed us
how to put the wall up and how to put
the roof up. It wasn't it was a small house
like a shd Like they were showing us how to
do the small like tasks that were required of the thing.
But that's totally relevant, isn't it like.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Skills?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, it's a good skill. And so I vividly remember
that day and going to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
It was fun like to do something hands on like
that too, to like actually get out there.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And as a team do that.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That is fascinating. We never did anything like that, but
that sounds really cool. Well, that does transition into the
person we're talking about today, who Architecture is not even
(13:06):
like the main thing, I would say, but a big
part of what we're going to talk about. Who are
we discussing today, Eves.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Today we're talking about Minette da Silva, who was the
first Asian woman to be an associate of the Royal
Institute of British Architects and generally she's just been kind
of called Sri Lanka's first woman architect, like right after
British rule ended, she was one of it was already
not that many architects there, and she was one of
(13:36):
the first to be practicing right after the end of
British rule in what was then called Ceylon which is
now Sri Lanka.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes, and she she really did quite a bit. And
I found I liked, I found some differing accounts on
like her personality that I found really interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Okay, yeah, we'll be able to I feel like, yes,
about women that happened often seemed to have been applied
to the way people treated her and spoke with her
and spoke about her. And I do think it's interesting. Yes, yeah,
So shall we get into it, Yes, let's do that.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Manette de Silva was born in nineteen eighteen in Candy, which,
like I said, was then called Ceylon at the time
it was colonized by the British. And Manette was the
fourth of five children. Her father was George da Silva,
who was a Senileese journalist and lawyer. And I mean
he was he was up through politics like he was,
(14:43):
had these connections and you know, he he worked his
way up to become a member of the Legislative Council
and things like that. And her mother was Anya's Da
Silva and she designed the family home that they call
Saint George's.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And you know when a home has a name, it's fancy.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Saint George's was the name of that home, and that
was on the outskirts of Candy. Now they seemed too
they were doing fine. And the mother was a so
called Burger and so she had this like Eurasian descent.
So that's that's her ethnic background. That's Menest' ethnic background.
(15:27):
But it didn't seem like it was like it wasn't
like total silver spoon in the mouth situation.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
It was like.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
They were doing fine, and she had a lot of
opportunities based on who she was around. And there were
a lot of people coming through the house, like there
was talk about Gandhi and later she was friends with
Darra Gandhi and the Nahrws and all these things.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So there were names around for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
They were connected to all these big shots, and that
included the politician side, but also some of that artist's
side too. And when her parents went to London to
have meetings with politicians, they brought Manette with them and
they put her in the boarding school there and she
went to school in Brighton from nineteen twenty nine to
(16:16):
nineteen thirty one and fast forward. By nineteen thirty nine
she had told her family that she wanted.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
To be an architect.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
There are a lot of things she could have been
inspired by. Obviously, she was already seeing a lot of
the world and was around these like you know, big
shot artists. But she might have also been inspired by
her sister in law Esme, who studied at the Slade
in London, which is this art school and visited the
Boo House. And her sister in law, es Man, also
(16:47):
designed her own house in the late nineteen thirties. Yeah,
so her inspiration could have come from a lot of places,
but it it seemed like her parents weren't really into it.
But they still actually support her and told her she
could go pursue her dreams. And so they let her
(17:08):
work with an architect in Colombo, which is in what
was it in Ceylon, then to enroll in a private
school of architecture in what was then Bombay now Mumbai.
So she was at that private school and then she
went to a government school and she was expelled from
that school apparently for being involved in the Quit India movement,
(17:31):
which was against the British Raj so she ended up
being a student there in Bombay from nineteen forty to
nineteen forty three. Then she went to Mysore. After that
she worked under Otto Koenigsberger, who was a refugee from
Nazi Germany, and under him she worked on the planning
of Tatanagar, which is a city in eastern India. And
(17:57):
she and her older sister Anil ended up being founding
members of the Modern Architecture Research Group or MARK for short,
and they were instrumental in establishing this journal for the
organization that was about modern architecture. And we'll talk in
a minute about like she wrote stuff for the journal,
(18:22):
but it continued on after she wasn't, you know, involved
in anymore. But she left India and she went to
London in nineteen forty five to study at the Architectural Association.
She had an apartment when she was there in Seville Row.
And there has been mentioned, I mean, I mean the
(18:42):
whole exotaization, that's a difficult word, exotaization, that thing, exota
sizing of her. She's like this thing, that thing, yeah,
y'all know what I'm talking about, orientalizing, fetishizing, kind of
(19:04):
just putting her on a pedestal for you know, her
being different kind of being, this this Eastern princess essentially
seemed to kind of come into play here because she
would do things like wear flowers in her hair and sorryes.
And so I've seen some quotes from some articles that
we're talking about that kind of juxtaposition of cultural identifications happening,
(19:28):
this like post war idea of the color being sucked
out of everything, and you know her being the one
to bring this colorful easternness. I mean, and if I
mean colorful, the idea of colorfulness is always like a signifier,
a signpost for the other ring of people.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And the things that they do.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
So yeah, I was, I was having a lot of
those visions when I was going back through her her legacy.
But I mean she did she You know, if you
go look at you can see photos of her and
you'll see her wearing her sorry isn't working. But yeah,
So she had her apartment there, and in nineteen forty
(20:12):
six she visited Paris and she met the architectural designer
Le Cobrusier Le Corbusier.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I'm having difficulty with See.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
My name is French, but I am not, so I
always have to qualify that I'm just pretend French because
my name isn't even pronounced correctly. But yes, So she
finished her studies. Well, I will say about him though
she had she had this correspondence with him over time,
(20:44):
and there was speculation about their relationship being something more
than platonic, but he never admitted to that. She never
really talked about that, but they did continue their like
friendship over time and their correspondence with each other. And
it's just kind of like an indicative of the connections
that she had with these big names and who she
(21:05):
was in rooms with and who she was like, you know,
able to cut network so cause she has been said
to be like a great networker and that was really
helpful for her in her career. But she finished her
studies at the Architectural Association in nineteen forty eight, and
(21:26):
it was at this point that she became the first
Asian woman to be an associate in the Royal Institute
of British Architects. So Manette she really wanted to stay
in London, but her parents were.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Like, no, come back home.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
She came back to Candy and she continued her practice
there from the family home and from nineteen forty eight
to nineteen fifty one she was working on her first
commission project, which was the Kurunaratana House in Candy and you.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Can see the for this house.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
There were also there are also pictures of the house
that you can see, and it was meant to be
designed for this like modern Buddhist Sinhalese family, so to
make room for their Buddhist traditions that they had, but
also like it was meant to be lived in like
in the modern times. So that house has since been destroyed,
(22:25):
but it was like this early example for her outlook
on architecture, so that there could be this like synergy
between the modern design and the traditional concepts and practices
in the context of.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
The environment that they were in.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And in nineteen fifty three she wrote this article in
Mark talking about the house as so called modern regional
architecture in the tropics, and that's where this idea. If
you look up Manette Silva, you'll see her highly associated
with this idea of modern regionalism and it was an.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Idea that was ahead of its time and.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Speaking of and is a tale as old as time
of the woman having ideas and oftentimes it wasn't even
like this where it was documented, where it was cemented
in this magazine. It was just kind of like she
said it or she you know it was. People knew
who this idea came from, this concept came from, but
(23:30):
we don't have proof of it. In this case, we
can see Manette da Silva talking about her ideas about
modern regionalism, and later on there were other men who
were in architectural profession who kind of expounded on this
same idea, but she was already talking about it a
(23:52):
decade plus before. This idea later became known as critical regionalism,
but it was based around her concept and just intimation
around how in her design she would use this mix
of modern construction materials and local materials, so you know,
(24:13):
there would be cement, but there will also be would
and she would incorporate like local artisans working, and then
she would have artists from the area. There were murals,
and then there was bamboo incorporated in the design. So
it was a mixture of these materials, but also there
was thoughtful design around you know, how a home was
(24:37):
built to allow drafts to enter, to allow cooling to
happen in the house, and there was in some of
her projects, talks about what kind of material the roof could.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Be made out of or should be made out of.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So it was a lot of interesting mixes between the
traditional and the modern, and that was a big part
of what she was is about. So the first house
that she designed in Colombo for the pieris family that
had an open courtyard and that was influenced by earlier
(25:14):
Sri Lankan architecture and that showed up in her later.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Designs that she did too.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
In nineteen fifty seven, she also designed the Sanenayake Flats
in Colombo, which were ten apartments and each one had
its own garage.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
And that one, if you.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Look at the architecture, is like a lot of cement
like curves, and it was just about how to bring
this modern element into the way people were living in
Colombo at the time, and she thought about things like cost.
She kept things in mind like indigenous building techniques. And
(25:56):
her practice grew a lot during the nineteen fifties, so
a lot of it was private homes, but she also
traveled a lot and that had a negative effect on
how she was present for her clients. And so this
is where this is where we were getting to what
you were talking about Annie Yeah with how yeah, how
(26:20):
people spoke about her like they would say that she
was abrasive, that she was hard to work with. A
client would want something and she would be like no,
like I don't want that, so it's not going to happen,
Like she's been stubborn about certain things being done if
the request was something that she wasn't into, and that
(26:42):
she could be kind of unmoving on those things.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So there was that element of it.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
And then there was also people talking about how she
would be in Europe a lot. So while she was
practicing her practice was in Sri Lanka, she was off
in Europe. And there was one article that I read
by author Sheromi Pinto that I think provided other perspective
(27:08):
on that, which is just that Europe was kind of
a refuge for her when things got overwhelming. So I mean,
I'm just imagining her being in this male dominated space
that was architectural design in Sri Lanka and then having
all this community that she built up in England that
seemed to be a support network around her that wasn't
(27:30):
just about.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The share glitz and glam of it all.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It was like she had artists that she could talk
to and that she corresponded with lovingly that seemed to
provide like an emotional support system for her. On top
of you know, there were industry meetings that she was
going to there as well, of course, but you know,
it wasn't just about that, And so I think it's
(27:53):
it might be fair that a person's experience with her
is that they might not have thought that she was
as president as she should be, But it's also unfair
for the people who around her, who aren't even necessarily
her clients, talking about her just going off to Europe,
because it was something that was a support to her,
that was clearly meaningful and probably helpful to her. And
(28:15):
when we get into our legacy, I'll talk a little
bit more about that too, because I feel like that's
there's a broader conversation just about like how women are
spoken about and regarded because they're women in this kind
of industry. So we'll get back to that. But David Robson,
(28:36):
who was a profession of architecture, and he had met Manette,
and he lived in a house that she designed, and
in his lectures and in his writings, he's talked about
Jeffrey Bawa being kind of this like foil slash adversary
to her. So if you're like, if you're reading her,
(28:58):
if you're looking at her life as you know, as
this fictional story, it would kind of seem like that's
who Jeffrey Bawa is, Like this is an antagonist in
the story in a way. So that that's for a
couple of reasons. Like, for instance, one of the architects
that she hired, his name was Orric Pleasner.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
He worked with her.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
He wrote this, apparently I haven't read it, but this
weird book and she was mentioned in it, like he
detegrated her in this book, and it's some weird accusations
and rumor stuff happening in there. But apparently it's this
like fantastic autobiographical situation. So take that as for what
you will. But this guy, Orrick Plesner, left to work
(29:42):
with Bawa in Colombo and they became quite successful. So
even though he had spoke down on her, Pleasner and
his book he wrote, it was clear that he had
learned a lot from Manette, and so also Pleasanner and
Bawa were undoubtedly influenced by her designs based on the
work they were doing, and her writings about this modern regionalism,
(30:04):
and they were clearly influenced by that and Robson that
professor I mentioned. He also points out how during one
period she kind of watered down her work and drew
influence from Bawa before returning back to her confidence style.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
But like Bawa also.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Drew influence from her, So there was this like, I
don't know if I would call it a full on
like friction, but there was some back and forth, like
some ping pong action happening there. So in the nineteen fifties,
(30:48):
Salon was also this hot spot for filmmakers, and she
connected with people like Laurence Olivier, his wife, Vivian Lee,
and David Lean and all these people. So she's continued
to bump shoulders and elbows with these names, and she's
also continuing to speak out about her theories. In nineteen
(31:09):
sixty five or nineteen sixty six, she expounded on them
in her writing again in another essay call Experiments in
Modern Regional Architecture. But around that time, so the mid sixties,
she was already facing illness and depression because her mother
had died in nineteen sixty two, so her career took
(31:34):
a downturn in the nineteen sixties. Clients let her go
and new clients didn't commission her, and by the end
of the sixties her projects had really really seriously slowed down.
This could also be connected to the fact that it
was private homes for the easiest commissions for her to get.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
She did.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
She got a lot more private homes to and then
to be built. Then she did some of the commercial
projects that she could have worked on.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
In nineteen seventy three, she after a series of events
and connections.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
She ended up moving to London.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
She got a job as a lecturer at the University
of Hong Kong. She went there lectured for a time,
and then nineteen eighty she ended up going back to Candy,
and she wanted to go back to her architectural practice
because in that period, you know, between her lecturing and
(32:40):
her career taking a downturn in Sri Lanka, she wasn't
really like her practice wasn't as robust.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So when she went back.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
To Candy in nineteen eighty, she got back into her practice.
She wasn't working at the pace she used to, but
she did design three more buildings, and I just want
to It's a very specific point, but it's just something
I noticed when I'm going through these biographies about people,
(33:13):
and it's even more apparent when I'm reading these biographies
about women. But just there's this positioning of things that
are happening later in life, like but she couldn't do
as many more in the end. It's kind of like
a unfortunately she wasn't working as much anymore in the end.
(33:34):
And I just want to say to everybody who's reading
these biographies and they get to a point in somebody's
history and they see something like, oh, by the end
of her life, or like, you know, once she got older,
like you know, she couldn't operate at the pace, she
couldn't produce at the pay she did anymore. And I
just I want to highlight that because I want people
(33:57):
to think about that when they're reading it and see
how that like placed from a standpoint of thinking that
people's value is lessened when there when their rate of
production is lessened, also kind of makes it seem like
that wasn't their choice to decrease their productivity later in life.
It could just be like I didn't want to do
(34:20):
that much anymore. It's not because I've failed to do
that much anymore, or I failed to do this many things.
It's nothing wrong with not being prolific. If you know,
if you're doing what you want to do, then that's fine.
So that's just some like kind of a semantic like
a language thing that I think can be important to
point out for people. Since we're talking about all these
(34:42):
women's biographies, it's probably something that people run into when
they're going back into these histories. But she did design
three more buildings, and her last building was the Sarah
Wartna House, and the man who owned the house was
part of the Peer family, which I talked about earlier,
because they had commissioned her work for houses before, and
(35:06):
she designed that home, but another architect built it. And
at this point in her life she's in the Saint
George's Home and it was in disrepair though, so oh
that was still a house with a name. She wasn't
able to take care of it as well. Because throughout
(35:27):
this time, it's not like she's rolling in the dough.
She is, you know, she doesn't have that much money
at this point, but she is thinking about her legacy
and her family is also thinking about her legacy, and
she does have some support and like the pursuit of
documenting that legacy. In nineteen ninety three, her sister and
(35:48):
Neil got three postcrad architecture students to take pictures of
Manette's buildings for her autobiography, but Manette in the end
she got them to hand over the film and before
they left it disappeared. It was gone, never to be
seen again, so no record of that. But in nineteen
(36:13):
ninety six, the Sri Lanka Institute of Architects awarded her
as Gold Medal finally because they had already given it
to Babwa more than a decade prior.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And she died in.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
November of nineteen ninety eight. She was eighty years old.
She died in Candy and man I really don't just
when you see her story, you'll see how kind of
sad it feels at the end of her life because
of how it's spoken about, how she felt kind of forgotten,
like or just not that well attended to at that point.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And there was a quote from Manette.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Where she talks about how she wants people to like
visit her while she's alive rather than like coming to
her funeral, but she was in the hospital leading up
to her death, and at that time apparently people had
like taken things from her home and from her studios,
so some family members getting some things, but also apparently
neighbors getting things, so art works by you know, famous people,
(37:14):
and drawings and letters and furniture and even like structural
parts of the building like doors and things like that
were taken. But the project that she had been working
on leading up to the end of her life, that
the Postgrast students had came to help her work on,
she did write stuff for it, and she did choose
(37:35):
images for it, and that turned into this scrapbook style
work that is called The Life and Work of an
Asian Woman Architect. But that was published right after she died,
so she wasn't able to publish it before she died,
and unfortunately it wasn't really edited much so, and it
was also volume one with an intended volume two, and
(37:58):
the volume two is nowhere to be seen. So yeah,
there's a lot to be desired, as you could imagine.
And you know, it's sad because over the course of
her life she created many, many designs, and out of
those designs, it was only so many, so not every
design actually comes to fruition in terms of turning into
an actual building. But she built over a dozen homes,
(38:22):
apartment built, she built a couple apartment buildings, housing development,
and some public buildings. And today, even though she had
all those designs, that's one huge chunk. And then that
gets narrower in terms of what was actually built. That
gets even narrower in terms of what's still standing today.
And even if like in some cases there was what
(38:44):
was still standing and what was destroyed, it was only
pieces of it that was still standing Saint George's as well,
that home was also destroyed, land was sold. But there
are efforts today to continue to document and research her life,
legacy and preserve her works.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
So that is.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
That is Bennette de Silva's life, And I guess now
would be a good time to bring up the whole
kind of like commentary about the commentary about her abrasiveness.
Of course, if a woman is taking an authoritative position,
if she is the head of something, if she's hiring people,
(39:29):
if she's in a male dominated feeling, she's early on
in it. Like this is post war and post British
raj like it's just so much that's happening, and then
conceptions of like what women should be doing, can be
doing and are doing, and all those colliding at once,
and with the background of these huge societal pressure points,
(39:57):
it makes sense that people will be like abrasive. But
Manette herself did also talk about how she remembers specific
instances of like she was like, yeah, I can't remember
what the what the actual job was, but she says
something like, yeah, they wanted this kind of roof and
I didn't want this roof, and like, I remember I
(40:20):
said that, and like I really probably shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I was probably being a little more harsh than I
should have been.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
I think it was Robson who was talking and electro
I was watching and talking about how she was like
like somebody came up to her and one of her
clients asked her, Yeah, this thing is like there are
holes in this so there's water coming into the house,
and so what do I do about it?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
You need to change this, and she was like, well.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Get them up, And you know, that's kind of how
she could be with some people. So there's also an
argument to be made about like her that kind of
authoritativeness is a necessity when you're a woman in general,
especially when you're a woman in a male dominated field
(41:07):
and building this like new lane for yourself to not
equivocate and to be certain about the things you're doing,
to make sure that people take you seriously, to make
sure that people know you know what you're talking about.
It's a protective measure. And I don't you know, I'm
(41:29):
always going to be weary when I see that, even
if there is truth to that being just somebody's personality,
because that could be anybody's personality, no matter what year
it is and no matter what gender you are. So yeah,
but I'm sure y'all have come across a lot of
commentary like that and everything that you research to Oh. Yes,
(41:50):
I mean, when I was just glancing over who we
were talking about today, there are certain words when I
see them used to describe women immediately like I don't
know about that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And she had a lot of accounts of her being
abrasive or like not friendly enough, things like that, And
I mean, this is a huge conversation, but two of
the main points that stood out to me with this
is one one of my most hated tropes, but the
(42:26):
myth of the male genius, who we allow to be
a complete pole, but we praise him because.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
He's a genius.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Well he can, he's right, whatever it is, and usually
white male genius. And when women try to do that,
they are punished, they are unfriendly, they are abrasive.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
It's the same.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
But also on top of that, women get advice that
is so contradictory of you should be more friendly, you
should do like X, Y Z when you go to negotiate,
here's what you do, and it's usually to act more
like men. But when women do it, like the traditional
(43:12):
male yeah, like yeah, when women do it, it is, Oh,
she's abrasive. I don't don't work with her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
It's just frustrating.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
It's one of those things that yes, I immediately was like,
I bet he's just gonna tell us about this situation.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And with Bawa, it was that was kind of like
a thing.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
No nobody complained if people would have any sort of
experience with him where they felt like he was being
a little too direct or a little too harsh in
his language. And that's just kind of accepted as as
what he does. But I think that also kind of
just you know, highlights a little bit of that that swing,
that ping pong situation that happening because he was kind
(43:58):
of on the up and up as she was as
her career was slowing down, and so he was just
a little bit younger than her, but he was more
like a decade behind in his actual schooling. Oh that
made me remember something, But I'll put a pin in
that because it had to do with time. But the
other point I want to make about that is that
(44:19):
I think there's also an ethnic and cultural layer added
to this, because I think there could have been some
expectation of like for her to be that is even
more enhanced for her to be like ingratiating or subservient
because of how they perceived her. Outsiders perceived her because
of her dress and her ethnicity. So I think, you
(44:43):
know that that can be an added layer to how
how you meet someone's expectations when you show up and
you say no, I'm not doing this, and they're like,
but you should say yes to everything I say, or
but you shouldn't speak to me like that, like tell
me a little softer.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
So yeah, I do think that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
But the other thing I wanted to say is that
she's started, you know, her career kind of started after
her thirties and you know a little bit later. And
so often we'll see this.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Atwo eye.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
I'll speak for myself. I know we've talked about it before,
but just like you're like, dang, you did so much
and you're only twenty two, like you did all of
this and your legacy so long, and you know, and
that can often be the case in these female first
episodes that we do. But I just appreciate it seeing like,
you know, she got support from her parents. She was
(45:40):
able to make use of her connections even though she
didn't have all the advantages in the world. So another
thing about this Bahwa guy was that he had an
advantage of where he could kind of pay to play
a little bit. Like he he got immediately into a
firm in Colombo, and her she didn't really have that,
Like she you know, worked with these local artists and
(46:01):
she wasn't able to immediately kind of skip.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Some skip these steps. And so he had access in.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
A kind of more in a larger way right from
the jump that he had an advantage. So she was
really working against a lot, like you know, she was
really like the context of the time, her gender, you know,
the schooling, all of these things.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yeah, I once again I think this would be a
fantastic HBO mini series. Oh yeah, because you've got so
many like the cast of characters she was interacting with,
You've got a rival, like, you've got a potential maybe
maybe not love interest.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I mean no, seriously, I could see it as a
limited series at dramatization of her life. As a limited series.
She's she's I mean, come on, strong female lead. Come on,
I'm waiting for Manila folder to be slammed on somebody's table,
like please, maybe we need we need to take action. Yeah,
(47:14):
there's a real situation room picture if you go look
up of like her in the middle of a bunch
of dudes like chatting it up, talking about a thing,
handling business. It's good, it's good. And I mean the
sets would be great, yes, because of the homes that
she built were so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yes, And like you said, you can find pictures of
her and some of the stuff she's done, so you
can start visualizing this mini series for your self. Listeners,
you would like yes, yes, Well, thank you so much
as always Eves for bringing this story to us.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Y'all just go directly to my website, which is Eves
jeffcot dot com. I will spell it y V E
S J E F F C A T dot com
And from there you can get to all the other things,
sign up for my email list, you can get to
my YouTube channel. You can also find my Instagram on there.
But if you want to go directly to that, I
am at not apologizing, and you can connect with me
(48:21):
there and tell me how you felt about Minetta Silva story, Like,
tell me something if you're going to connect with me
over there, about any other other women that we've talked
about on Female First here on Sminty where we talk
about women who had pioneering accomplishments in history. Yes, if
you haven't done any of that, listeners, go ahead and
(48:43):
do it.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
I will.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I have to tell you Eves is a wonderful conversation partner.
I'm assuming digitally as well. But yes, I think it
would be an excellent conversation if you reached out with
your thoughts about any of the Female First So go
do that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I recommend it.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
If you would like to contact us, you can our
email us Hello at Stuffmenever Told You dot Com. We're
also in Blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast and on
Instagram and TikTok and stuff We Never Told You.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
We're also on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
We have some merchandise ac cop Bureau, and we have
a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always to our super producer Casey and our
executive producer Maya. Thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff Whenever Told You instruction of my Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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